California -- CCNR's Prohibit Home Business

[ardeur]

Anyone familiar with California law? We're in escrow on a condo and I just read through the CCNR's which prohibit any home businesses.

But it is my understanding that California law is on my side with this one regarding my family daycare. HOAs, landlords, neighbors, CCNR's, etc may not prevent me from operating a family daycare.

Correct?

[Sumshine]

Originally Posted by ardeur

Anyone familiar with California law? We're in escrow on a condo and I just read through the CCNR's which prohibit any home businesses.

But it is my understanding that California law is on my side with this one regarding my family daycare. HOAs, landlords, neighbors, CCNR's, etc may not prevent me from operating a family daycare.

Correct?

I don't know about CA but in MN you need permission to run a daycare forsure if you rent and I've heard of associations limiting kids or not allowing daycares at all even if you own! One particularly popular newer developed neighborhood the next town over literally only allows daycares to have 4 kids at a time and you sign off on that when you move into the association! I thought that was crazy. Spend half a million on a dang house you OWN and you are limited if you do daycare?!

[daycare]

The link won't copy. Odd

I am going through the same thing in CA
GO TO CCLD tenants rights. They can't stop you. You are correct about the law.

[daycare]

You can also Contact childcare law and fair housing. Sorry I tried to copy the link again and it won't work. I'm on my phone

[ardeur]

Thank you so much! That is helpful.

[Cat Herder]

I see this issue both ways.

If the Condos are sold as an adult or gated community, I would hope they do have some way of preventing owners from opening family childcare.

I am depending on that, myself, one day.

[Cat Herder]

Below are the more common/valued rules for Condos, here. It may be completely different in the community where you are.

"1. The existence or operation of the business activity is not apparent or detectable by sight, sound or smell from the exterior of the unit.

2. The business activity does not involve visitation by employees, clients, customers, suppliers or other business invitees who do not reside in the condominium.

3. The business activity does not increase the insurance premium paid by the condominium association or otherwise negatively affect the association's ability to obtain insurance coverage.

4. The business activity does not place an undue burden on the infrastructure of the buildings of the condominium property.

5. The business activity does not result in a materially greater use of the common areas or association services. "

[daycare]

Originally Posted by Cat Herder

Below are the more common/valued rules for Condos, here. It may be completely different in the community where you are.

"1. The existence or operation of the business activity is not apparent or detectable by sight, sound or smell from the exterior of the unit.

2. The business activity does not involve visitation by employees, clients, customers, suppliers or other business invitees who do not reside in the condominium.

3. The business activity does not increase the insurance premium paid by the condominium association or otherwise negatively affect the association's ability to obtain insurance coverage.

4. The business activity does not place an undue burden on the infrastructure of the buildings of the condominium property.

5. The business activity does not result in a materially greater use of the common areas or association services. "

In CA that does not apply to family childcare even in an apartment condo or HOA. However in an adult community let's say like 55 and older then the answer would be no.

[daycare]

California law requires that family child care be provided in the caregiver’s own home. There is no requirement that the provider own their own home. If you rent or lease your home or apartment and your rental agreement or lease says the apartment or home is to be used only as a residence, family child care is still allowed. The following are selected sections of the Health and Safety Code you may find useful if you are having problems with your landlord.


http://ccld.ca.gov/res/pdf/FamilyChi...nantRights.pdf

Got the link to work

[CalCare]

Yes, in CA it is absolutely definitely your right, by law, to run a family Childcare in your home regardless of HOA rules and regardless if you own or rent. I spoke with childcare law when I had a problem with childcare and renting. I was in the right, but their advice was to let it go since I would win a lawsuit but be stuck renting from a landlord that would want me out. Since you will be owning, the HOA will probably be really annoying and even though you will be in the right, who knows what stunts they will pull to try to get you to stop. They'll be watching for any infraction (a potted plant on the patio- not allowed! Parking in the guest parking- 2nd warning! Oh you have a Legitimate problem- not taking care of that any time soon!) You'll face obnoxious HOAs in most condos. Just gotta do your thing!

[daycare]

Originally Posted by CalCare

Yes, in CA it is absolutely definitely your right, by law, to run a family Childcare in your home regardless of HOA rules and regardless if you own or rent. I spoke with childcare law when I had a problem with childcare and renting. I was in the right, but their advice was to let it go since I would win a lawsuit but be stuck renting from a landlord that would want me out. Since you will be owning, the HOA will probably be really annoying and even though you will be in the right, who knows what stunts they will pull to try to get you to stop. They'll be watching for any infraction (a potted plant on the patio- not allowed! Parking in the guest parking- 2nd warning! Oh you have a Legitimate problem- not taking care of that any time soon!) You'll face obnoxious HOAs in most condos. Just gotta do your thing!

I used to live in and HOA a few years back and that some what happened to me. I was able to get them off my back. they were seeking me out and harassing me, they just didn't want me there. I contacted fair housing and they got them off my back.
BUT I wish I didn't have to ever go through that, the stress was unbearable at the time and I would go to bed crying almost every night.

[Snowmom]

Originally Posted by Sumshine

I don't know about CA but in MN you need permission to run a daycare forsure if you rent and I've heard of associations limiting kids or not allowing daycares at all even if you own! One particularly popular newer developed neighborhood the next town over literally only allows daycares to have 4 kids at a time and you sign off on that when you move into the association! I thought that was crazy. Spend half a million on a dang house you OWN and you are limited if you do daycare?!

I've been running into that all over the cities (MN). We've been looking at building a new home and nearly all the homebuilders have HOAs now and prohibit daycares. It's maddening!

[Cat Herder]

Originally Posted by Snowmom

I've been running into that all over the cities (MN). We've been looking at building a new home and nearly all the homebuilders have HOAs now and prohibit daycares. It's maddening!

That has always been the case inside city limits, here, unless the land is zoned mixed use. That is why I have always lived further out into the rural county areas; to run my family childcare program. I assumed that was the point of zoning.

Q: Do you guys really feel that people who don't want to live near daycares/dog groomers/shade tree mechanics, etc., and pay dearly for it, should not have protections as well? Really? Never? Why should they have to wait until 55?

**Don't get angry, please. I seriously want to understand the other side of this.**

My view: I am coming to the end of my career and after 30 years of other peoples screaming kids, no matter how much I adore them now, I would like to think I had earned the right to a little peace and quiet, somewhere. Especially on my own property. Property I searched out for its HOA and covenants.

Why should *your (broad) rights be more valued than mine in this scenario??

[hwichlaz]

In California Title 22 protects your rights to open a daycare anywhere you live that you can bring up to licensing standards. It's because it's beneficial to children to be able to have care in their own neighborhoods. Landlords cannot prevent you from doing this. Though you DO need your landlord's consent to watch the two additional school aged children. Without permission you're limited to 6 kids.

[Sumshine]

Originally Posted by Cat Herder

Below are the more common/valued rules for Condos, here. It may be completely different in the community where you are.

"1. The existence or operation of the business activity is not apparent or detectable by sight, sound or smell from the exterior of the unit.

2. The business activity does not involve visitation by employees, clients, customers, suppliers or other business invitees who do not reside in the condominium.

3. The business activity does not increase the insurance premium paid by the condominium association or otherwise negatively affect the association's ability to obtain insurance coverage.

4. The business activity does not place an undue burden on the infrastructure of the buildings of the condominium property.

5. The business activity does not result in a materially greater use of the common areas or association services. "

I do see that as a valid point! Never thought of it that way! I could definitely understand where condos and apartments get tricky! I wouldn't want a bunch of people in and out of a secured facility dropping and picking up their kids. I also wouldn't want to hear a daycare right next door or above me

Any business really would be annoying to a neighbor in close living quarters IMO.

I am confused about the one neighborhood I talked about above though because they are a "family based" development but then limit daycare providers to 4 kids???

[Cat Herder]

Originally Posted by Sumshine

I do see that as a valid point! Never thought of it that way! I could definitely understand where condos and apartments get tricky! I wouldn't want a bunch of people in and out of a secured facility dropping and picking up their kids. I also wouldn't want to hear a daycare right next door or above me

Any business really would be annoying to a neighbor in close living quarters IMO.

I am confused about the one neighborhood I talked about above though because they are a "family based" development but then limit daycare providers to 4 kids???

Now THAT makes no sense to me at all. That would be the entire point of a subdivision for young families, community support systems. That would be "the dream" location. I would move to one of those TODAY - if I could find one. Lol

I really did think Condos were for A). people of empty nest age who are having a harder time managing acreage and general maintenance B) people who chose not to have kids C) small families on the go.

We all have to plan for our eventual retirement, this thread was a shock to me. I was hoping to scale down to a sleepy condo, in about 10 years, and travel more. Very interesting topic.

[Snowmom]

Originally Posted by Cat Herder

That has always been the case inside city limits, here, unless the land is zoned mixed use. That is why I have always lived further out into the rural county areas; to run my family childcare program. I assumed that was the point of zoning.

Q: Do you guys really feel that people who don't want to live near daycares/dog groomers/shade tree mechanics, etc., and pay dearly for it, should not have protections as well? Really? Never? Why should they have to wait until 55?

**Don't get angry, please. I seriously want to understand the other side of this.**

My view: I am coming to the end of my career and after 30 years of other peoples screaming kids, no matter how much I adore them now, I would like to think I had earned the right to a little peace and quiet, somewhere. Especially on my own property. Property I searched out for its HOA and covenants.

Why should *your (broad) rights be more valued than mine in this scenario??

No worries. I'm happy to answer from my own perspective.

I think it's perfectly reasonable to expect that if you live in a neighborhood that consists of 4-6 bedroom homes, there's going to be children.
All of these new home developments I speak of are 4-6 bedroom homes in family neighborhoods, with parks, walking trails and playing fields and even advertise the great school districts. They are designed for families.

In a large (60+ home) family community, no, I don't think it's reasonable. Those HOA restrictions don't apply to those that have other businesses out of their home (that could still require that business owner to have daily traffic out of their home) but have specific rules against daycare.

I grew up in a big family, my mom grew up in a big family. To me, having 10 neighborhood kids playing in the backyard is no different than the way we grew up and it infuriates me that the expected trend now is to stick all the kids in centers and formal preschools away from the family neighborhoods and communities.

I don't balk at your right to live in a peaceful, quiet home if that's what you'd like. But why oh why does ALL the new home developments need to be this way?
14 builders in my area and 13 of them restrict how you can use your brand new 450k home.

[Cat Herder]

Originally Posted by Snowmom

I think it's perfectly reasonable to expect that if you live in a neighborhood that consists of 4-6 bedroom homes, there's going to be children.

They are designed for families.

I don't balk at your right to live in a peaceful, quiet home if that's what you'd like. But why oh why does ALL the new home developments need to be this way?
14 builders in my area and 13 of them restrict how you can use your brand new 450k home.

I agree with you there. That makes no sense to me at all. Seems family childcare in that setting would be extremely desired.

Maybe it is the 450k that makes it so? That is 4 times the average price, here, so I am picturing Stepford Village... It may be the norm there.

I was really thinking about Condos since they are a group living situation, where owners of individual units, themselves, agree to a similar lifestyle before purchase. To "buy in" then try to force everyone else to just suck it up, seems unfair.

I guess now that I typed it up I can see how those who can afford a 450k home would feel the same. Ugh.

So, what is the point of zoning and covenants if they are not enforceable . Anyone I really am interested. Is even owning a home worth it, anymore. I really am not seeing the benefits.

[sharlan]

Originally Posted by Cat Herder

I agree with you there. That makes no sense to me at all. Seems family childcare in that setting would be extremely desired.

Maybe it is the 450k that makes it so? That is 4 times the average price, here, so I am picturing Stepford Village... It may be the norm there.

I was really thinking about Condos since they are a group living situation, where owners of individual units, themselves, agree to a similar lifestyle before purchase. To "buy in" then try to force everyone else to just suck it up, seems unfair.

I guess now that I typed it up I can see how those who can afford a 450k home would feel the same. Ugh.

So, what is the point of zoning and covenants if they are not enforceable . Anyone I really am interested. Is even owning a home worth it, anymore. I really am not seeing the benefits.

Due to the extremely high cost of housing in CA, many families buy condos. Some cater to the over 55 crowd but most cater to families.

[ardeur]

This is a gated, family community -- not an age-restricted one. Lots of working couples and children here.

My husband and I wish to approach this very delicately and respectfully with our HOA board. I plan to accommodate them as far as I can but we still depend on my daycare income to live, so that needs to stay. I'm thinking the children won't be allowed outside during certain hours and I might consider pick-up or drop-off on the curb just outside the complex to limit traffic. Not sure if that is allowed in regs, though.

[Cat Herder]

Originally Posted by ardeur

This is a gated, family community -- not an age-restricted one. Lots of working couples and children here.

My husband and I wish to approach this very delicately and respectfully with our HOA board. I plan to accommodate them as far as I can but we still depend on my daycare income to live, so that needs to stay. I'm thinking the children won't be allowed outside during certain hours and I might consider pick-up or drop-off on the curb just outside the complex to limit traffic. Not sure if that is allowed in regs, though.

Did you know the covenants before you made an offer. Did you tell them you intended to run a family childcare there before purchase?

[sharlan]

Originally Posted by Cat Herder

Did you know the covenants before you made an offer. Did you tell them you intended to run a family childcare there before purchase?

In CA, it doesn't matter. A HOA cannot stop you from running an inhome daycare. Someone once told me that state trumps HOA's.

I was thinking about getting a large license, I'm currently small. I asked my city, they told me I had to apply for all sorts of things ($$), get permission from my neighbors, blah, blah, blah. I dropped it. I talked to licensing awhile back. I was given the name of someone in Sacramento. As it turned out, the city had no say and could not charge all the fees they were asking for.

[Cat Herder]

Originally Posted by sharlan

In CA, it doesn't matter. A HOA cannot stop you from running an inhome daycare. Someone once told me that state trumps HOA's.

I was thinking about getting a large license, I'm currently small. I asked my city, they told me I had to apply for all sorts of things ($$), get permission from my neighbors, blah, blah, blah. I dropped it. I talked to licensing awhile back. I was given the name of someone in Sacramento. As it turned out, the city had no say and could not charge all the fees they were asking for.

Got it. I thought it was for private, single family homes.

[ardeur]

Originally Posted by Cat Herder

Did you know the covenants before you made an offer. Did you tell them you intended to run a family childcare there before purchase?

We were not given the CCNRs until escrow. I tried calling the management office and they wouldn't share ANY details with me since we weren't in escrow yet.

I am not required to tell anyone anything since we are (or will be in 1-2 weeks) owners. We're not renting, so no notification has to happen.

[Cat Herder]

Originally Posted by ardeur

We were not given the CCNRs until escrow. I tried calling the management office and they wouldn't share ANY details with me since we weren't in escrow yet.

Oh, wow. That seems so shady of them.

Good luck, it sounds like your State is on your side though, so it should be a slam dunk.

[spedmommy4]

Originally Posted by ardeur

This is a gated, family community -- not an age-restricted one. Lots of working couples and children here.

My husband and I wish to approach this very delicately and respectfully with our HOA board. I plan to accommodate them as far as I can but we still depend on my daycare income to live, so that needs to stay. I'm thinking the children won't be allowed outside during certain hours and I might consider pick-up or drop-off on the curb just outside the complex to limit traffic. Not sure if that is allowed in regs, though.

All previous posters are correct. It's your legal right; however, you should expect a fight anyway. When I applied for my permit in CA, the HOA filed opposition. This forced a hearing. Ultimately the HOA was told they didn't have standing but it delayed my license. Just be prepared for them to make a stink. Attend your hearing prepared. (if there is one) Bring a copy of the law and a plan for how you'll handle noise