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Daycare Center and Family Home Forum>What Are the Penalties for Breaking A (Dumb) California Rule?
Sergio 07:46 PM 02-07-2016
I personally think that the following rule is rather dumb (taken verbatim from https://daycare.com/california/)=>

Originally Posted by :
For a small family child care home, the maximum number of children for whom care shall be provided, including children under age 10 who live in the licensee's home, is:
- four infants; or
- six children, no more than three of whom may be infants; or
- (...not important to us...)

But what happens, if my wife actually breaks this rule? For example, what happens if they catch my wife caring for 6 infants?
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Unregistered 08:56 PM 02-07-2016
She would be considered out of ratio. (Over the number of children in one age group she can legally have). This happened to a friend of mine and they fined her and put her on probation for one year. (And she was only over by 1 child). Licensing doesn't mess around.
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daycare 09:29 PM 02-07-2016
That is the worst type of violation you can get in CA. NOT only will you be fined, but you will be forced to have to post for one year your violation, have all current parents sign it and put it in their file as proof you told them you broke the law and you will have to tell all potential clients the same. If you are caught again while on your one year porbation you will be shut down and can face criminal charges.

No one would want to use your services With that violation.

I highly suggest you rethink breaking this rule.
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CalCare 10:06 PM 02-07-2016
I don't get what's so dumb about it. We all know the lower the ratio, the better the care. We all want infants to have the best care possible. I can imagine the quality of care 6 infants can get from one adult and it's not as good as a max of 4. The infant center I worked in actually went better than that and we had 1:3. Much better for relationships and attachment. Each child had an assigned primary caregiver. And actually what licensing calls for is kinda considered not as good as what should actually be required- which is why our director had a 1:3 ratio. Licensing regs are the MINIMUM of care required. Many providers go way better than licensing regs require- as they should. I know it seems like licensing just wants to make things difficult sometimes but I definitely don't see it that way as far as ratios are concerned.
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Josiegirl 02:22 AM 02-08-2016
I agree with you in that some rules are 'dumb' and over the top. BUT not ratios. They're a safety rule and that's our #1 priority in child care isn't it????
In my state, that's also one of the worst violations there is. And I can see why, especially when it comes to numbers of infants.
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morgan24 05:04 AM 02-08-2016
Originally Posted by Sergio:
I personally think that the following rule is rather dumb (taken verbatim from https://daycare.com/california/)=>




But what happens, if my wife actually breaks this rule? For example, what happens if they catch my wife caring for 6 infants?
That's a big no no in my state too. I don't think it's a dumb rule. If you had an emergency and needed to get out of the house quick I think you would have a hard time doing it with six infants.
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daycarediva 05:59 AM 02-08-2016
This has GOT to be a troll, right?

A provider wouldn't even FATHOM wanting to care for 6 infants. Talk about insanity!
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Thriftylady 06:23 AM 02-08-2016
Originally Posted by daycarediva:
This has GOT to be a troll, right?

A provider wouldn't even FATHOM wanting to care for 6 infants. Talk about insanity!
I think two or three infants can be to much on a hard day! Can you imagine six infants that are having a bad crying day? Oh my.
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LysesKids 07:02 AM 02-08-2016
Originally Posted by daycarediva:
This has GOT to be a troll, right?

A provider wouldn't even FATHOM wanting to care for 6 infants. Talk about insanity!
Actually I had 6 in Indiana all under age 2.5yrs as a registered provider and in AR I did 5 under 24 months for 7 years... Of course I had my homeschooled dd to help when I was in Indiana... dd moved out after 2 years in AR, but then I dropped my numbers to 4 FT. I was legal both times, but to do it illegally, not a chance. I am happy sticking with 4 here in TN and that's what my limit is licensed or legally licensed exempt. BTW, my sweet # is 4 kids lol

The OP is risking their career by going out of ratio because they think it's a dumb rule
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Annalee 07:03 AM 02-08-2016
Originally Posted by daycarediva:
This has GOT to be a troll, right?

A provider wouldn't even FATHOM wanting to care for 6 infants. Talk about insanity!
Yep!
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SquirrellyMama 07:03 AM 02-08-2016
Originally Posted by Josiegirl:
I agree with you in that some rules are 'dumb' and over the top. BUT not ratios. They're a safety rule and that's our #1 priority in child care isn't it????
In my state, that's also one of the worst violations there is. And I can see why, especially when it comes to numbers of infants.
Agreed. I remember having just 2 infants when I first started, and vowed never to have more than one after that. I love babies, but they require a lot of care.

Originally Posted by daycarediva:
This has GOT to be a troll, right?

A provider wouldn't even FATHOM wanting to care for 6 infants. Talk about insanity!

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MunchkinWrangler 07:25 AM 02-08-2016
Originally Posted by daycarediva:
This has GOT to be a troll, right?

A provider wouldn't even FATHOM wanting to care for 6 infants. Talk about insanity!
I agree!!! Considering some providers won't even care for infants!
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Play Care 07:36 AM 02-08-2016
Originally Posted by daycarediva:
This has GOT to be a troll, right?

A provider wouldn't even FATHOM wanting to care for 6 infants. Talk about insanity!
The poster has been on asking other questions about his wife starting a day care...

I feel sorry for his wife if this is legit. A person would soon burn out taking that many infants on their own, even if it were legal. In this case the husband is trying to get around a rule that he won't even have to face the consequences for (too many kids, possible state sanctions, provider burn out, etc) and if they are taking this step because they don't want to put their own kids in day care, then how awful that the kids would be stuck at home with too many other kids and not getting proper attention from their parent.

If your wife wants to start a legit child care, then do it the right way. If you as a family can't make ends meet staying in state mandated ratios, then child care isn't the option for your family.
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Controlled Chaos 08:11 AM 02-08-2016
I get that an infant being defined as 0-2y is annoying occasionally as there is a huge difference between a 3m and a 19m. I think I would do splendidly with 6 18m old toddler. BUT I would never break the law. I value my ability to continue offering quality childcare. If I got caught the consequences are huge.
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Thriftylady 08:14 AM 02-08-2016
Originally Posted by Play Care:
The poster has been on asking other questions about his wife starting a day care...

I feel sorry for his wife if this is legit. A person would soon burn out taking that many infants on their own, even if it were legal. In this case the husband is trying to get around a rule that he won't even have to face the consequences for (too many kids, possible state sanctions, provider burn out, etc) and if they are taking this step because they don't want to put their own kids in day care, then how awful that the kids would be stuck at home with too many other kids and not getting proper attention from their parent.

If your wife wants to start a legit child care, then do it the right way. If you as a family can't make ends meet staying in state mandated ratios, then child care isn't the option for your family.
I agree that this wouldn't be a troll. But many of the posts seem a little "off" to me. Like paying $24 an hour for a substitute. No way any of us could afford that. Cheaper to close for the day or half day or whatever.
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daycare 08:18 AM 02-08-2016
Originally Posted by Thriftylady:
I agree that this wouldn't be a troll. But many of the posts seem a little "off" to me. Like paying $24 an hour for a substitute. No way any of us could afford that. Cheaper to close for the day or half day or whatever.
I thought the same thing about the cost of the sub, BUT in CA it could be possible. I have paid $20 an hour for one of my old assistants to come back and fill in for half the day. So I can see that $24an hour could be possible if it were very short term, which I think that most subs are.
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mommyneedsadayoff 08:23 AM 02-08-2016
I think since "infant" is different state to state, the laws could be perceived as inconsistent and that could make someone feel they are not logical. My state, an "infant" is under 24 months, but to me, that is a huge gap in ability versus a 2 month old. Six infants under age 12 months is a LOT, but a few under 12 months and some in the 16-24 month age range is doable, ime, and can work out just fine.

Bottom line, don't go over ratio. You will get in trouble and it could end up costing you a lot.
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Sergio 08:34 AM 02-08-2016
First of all- thank you very much for your quick responses!

I must admit that, like some of you above said, I was a little bit trolling by calling this particular rule "dumb". You did educate me about child safety, so I definitely will respect this rule from now on.

Also, my wife has always been respecting all child care rules, including this one, because it's her dream to run a daycare.
The reason I asked this particular question is because she has been getting calls from parents of infants every week, and she already has a long waiting list. However, in the 6 months that she is open, not a single parent of a toddler showed any interest in her daycare.
That fact had frustrated me (but again not my beautiful smart wife), so that's why I asked the question the way I did.
[Plus, I was a bit too "emotional" after the Super Bowl.]

So the bottom line is this: I sincerely apologize for the way I asked my question, but I also thank you for your quick and insightful responses from the bottom of my heart!
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LysesKids 08:40 AM 02-08-2016
Originally Posted by mommyneedsadayoff:
I think since "infant" is different state to state, the laws could be perceived as inconsistent and that could make someone feel they are not logical. My state, an "infant" is under 24 months, but to me, that is a huge gap in ability versus a 2 month old. Six infants under age 12 months is a LOT, but a few under 12 months and some in the 16-24 month age range is doable, ime, and can work out just fine.

Bottom line, don't go over ratio. You will get in trouble and it could end up costing you a lot.
See that's why I can handle 4... not all are real little, only one of mine doesn't crawl or "couch surf" and he's trying to go "army" at the moment. My soon to be will be 7.5 months younger than the rest once he starts so he will get plenty of one on one (will start care at 6 weeks old, he's only 3 weeks right now)
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Unregistered 08:43 AM 02-08-2016
I think it's dumb also because I think the age groups should be divided differently.
IMO
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thrivingchildcarecom 09:57 AM 02-08-2016
Everything posted is right! The addition of an extra client is not worth the violation you would have attached to your license.

However, although I don't necessarily think its a dumb rule, it is hard considering the fact that most of the larger preschools are now accepting children as young as 2 yrs. This makes it difficult for FCC's because consequently the majority of the calls we get are for infants. Over the years I have turned away so many potential clients because of a ratio issue. Its really frustrating to see a need for the services you offer and not be able to accommodate. Especially if you need clients.

A colleague of mine and I are planning to write to our legislative representatives in Ca to see if we can have the law possibly changed. We both approached our analyst about possibly having the rule amended if perhaps there is an older infant (say 18 to 20 mons) or if there is the addition of another adult as an assistant. Our analyst agreed with our proposal and even gave suggestions for possibly having the law changed.

I am trying to make time in my busy schedule to research how this needs to be written and submitted this year so that it can possibly be reviewed during the calendar year that the legislature is in session.

I am sure when we get this ball rolling we will be asking for support from our fellow colleagues and possibly get the rule amended.
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Hunni Bee 10:06 AM 02-08-2016
Originally Posted by Sergio:
First of all- thank you very much for your quick responses!

I must admit that, like some of you above said, I was a little bit trolling by calling this particular rule "dumb". You did educate me about child safety, so I definitely will respect this rule from now on.

Also, my wife has always been respecting all child care rules, including this one, because it's her dream to run a daycare.
The reason I asked this particular question is because she has been getting calls from parents of infants every week, and she already has a long waiting list. However, in the 6 months that she is open, not a single parent of a toddler showed any interest in her daycare.
That fact had frustrated me (but again not my beautiful smart wife), so that's why I asked the question the way I did.
[Plus, I was a bit too "emotional" after the Super Bowl.]

So the bottom line is this: I sincerely apologize for the way I asked my question, but I also thank you for your quick and insightful responses from the bottom of my heart!
Thanks for clarifying! We are generally a helpful bunch, but more so when we know you're not a troll!
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Play Care 10:08 AM 02-08-2016
Originally Posted by thrivingchildcarecom:
Everything posted is right! The addition of an extra client is not worth the violation you would have attached to your license.

However, although I don't necessarily think its a dumb rule, it is hard considering the fact that most of the larger preschools are now accepting children as young as 2 yrs. This makes it difficult for FCC's because consequently the majority of the calls we get are for infants. Over the years I have turned away so many potential clients because of a ratio issue. Its really frustrating to see a need for the services you offer and not be able to accommodate. Especially if you need clients.

A colleague of mine and I are planning to write to our legislative representatives in Ca to see if we can have the law possibly changed. We both approached our analyst about possibly having the rule amended if perhaps there is an older infant (say 18 to 20 mons) or if there is the addition of another adult as an assistant. Our analyst agreed with our proposal and even gave suggestions for possibly having the law changed.

I am trying to make time in my busy schedule to research how this needs to be written and submitted this year so that it can possibly be reviewed during the calendar year that the legislature is in session.

I am sure when we get this ball rolling we will be asking for support from our fellow colleagues and possibly get the rule amended.


THIS is the way to go about it
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Sergio 10:17 AM 02-08-2016
Originally Posted by thrivingchildcarecom:
A colleague of mine and I are planning to write to our legislative representatives in Ca to see if we can have the law possibly changed. We both approached our analyst about possibly having the rule amended if perhaps there is an older infant (say 18 to 20 mons) or if there is the addition of another adult as an assistant. Our analyst agreed with our proposal and even gave suggestions for possibly having the law changed.

I am trying to make time in my busy schedule to research how this needs to be written and submitted this year so that it can possibly be reviewed during the calendar year that the legislature is in session.

I am sure when we get this ball rolling we will be asking for support from our fellow colleagues and possibly get the rule amended.


I would love to sign a petition (of sorts) that would redefine an "infant" as a child who can't walk. If the child can walk, regardless of their age, I believe that they should be viewed as a toddler.
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Annalee 10:18 AM 02-08-2016
In Tennessee, providers can only have 4 children under 24 months whether Group (12) or Family (7). Sometimes I do wish the ages were 16-18 months and under because 24 months and under is a broad range.
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MarinaVanessa 10:29 AM 02-08-2016
Originally Posted by Sergio:
I personally think that the following rule is rather dumb (taken verbatim from https://daycare.com/california/)=>




But what happens, if my wife actually breaks this rule? For example, what happens if they catch my wife caring for 6 infants?
I'm going to go back to the question "What happens if my wife breaks this rule?" (I'm in CA)

So licensing shows up unannounced and your wife is "out of ratio" (doesn't matter if by one child or by more). The analyst will issue a citation for a Class A Violation (the worst kind to get) and will include the violation in the visit report.

Best case scenario:
(no other violations found)
Your wife will immediately be required to contact some of the parents and have children picked up and taken home until she is within ratio.
The analyst will notify the parents that she is in violation of legal ratios and that she has been issued a class A violation and that they will have to find alternative child care.
The analyst will explain the regulation to your wife and warn her that she must always comply with the state's regulations.
A "Facility Evaluation Report" will be typed up during the same visit which will include her deficiencies and a plan of correction. Your wife will be required to sign the report agreeing to follow all regulations and will immediately be given a printed copy. This report must be posted for a minimum of 30 days (sometimes more, could be up to 1 year or more)
Your wife will also be given a "Notice of Site Visit" which will indicate that she received a violation. She will be required to post the notice for a minimum of 30 days.
Your wife will be required to give all remaining clients a copy of the "Facility Evaluation Report" and sign a form that says that they have received and read a copy. This form must be kept in the child's file at all times.
Any new clients that your wife enrolls within the required time frame will need to be given a copy of the "Facility Evaluation Report" as well and must also sign a form.
The class A violation will be in your wife's licensing file forever and available for the public for up to 2 years minimum (if potential clients call licensing to review her file they will have access to be told about it or to be provided a copy of it even if your wife's violation has been taken care of already and her required "notification" time has already gone by.

Worst case scenario, everything above and/or:
She could be issued a citation which she will have to pay. It could be just one citation or she can be given a citation per day that she operated out of ratio depending on the severity of the violation, whether she has other violations and at the discretion of her analyst/regional manager/district manager/director etc.
She receives the citation amount in the mail and will have a certain amount of time to pay it or her licence can be suspended and/or revoked if not paid on time.
If she has other violations (serious or not) she could be put on probation or have her license suspended/revoked at that time or at a later time (usually within a week or two). She could always fight a suspension or revocation but the process goes through the Administrative Courts (this is a real hearing in front of a real judge), you'll want to hire an attorney.
If she is put on probation she must not get ANY other violation during her probation period (usually 12 months, could be more or less) or she will have her licence revoked. Even after she serves her probation period she might be required to not get another violation within another 12 months or she can be put back on probation.

In other words ... it's a big deal. Any class A violation is but certain ones are huge in licensing's eyes especially any of the ones that have to with safety. These are considered personal rights violations and licensing takes the stance that every child has a right to a safe environment and violating safety regulations are a provider directly violating that child's right. Hope this helps.
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NillaWafers 10:30 AM 02-08-2016
Originally Posted by Sergio:


I would love to sign a petition (of sorts) that would redefine an "infant" as a child who can't walk. If the child can walk, regardless of their age, I believe that they should be viewed as a toddler.
Totally. I am in CA, I do think what qualifies as an infant is silly, but I would never go over ratios. I have my own infant and I won't take another until he can walk and participate with the others. I hope amending the law happens!
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Unregistered 11:19 AM 02-08-2016
All of the above.
Plus this:
OFTEN when tragedies occur in fcc it is discovered that the provider is out of ratio.
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MunchkinWrangler 11:21 AM 02-08-2016
LOL, sorry! I think most ratios are 'almost' the same depending on your license class. In MN, we're not allowed more that 3 children under 2 and no more than 2 can be infants(under 12 months), this is with an A license. You can get a different license class but must have a good standing while under an A license. Once you get into higher infant/toddler ratios in family child care, you need to have 2 adults. There is an infant/toddler specialty license class but you ratio is way lower, meaning you can't have very many total children and aren't allowed to take older children, I don't remember the exact details.
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MunchkinWrangler 11:24 AM 02-08-2016
Oh, and think about it, most older toddlers and preschool age children are already established in childcare. Most of the time if I get someone looking for this age group, it's because the nanny left or something that was out of the parents control which is forcing them to seek out childcare. Families with infants are just starting out.
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Second Home 11:25 AM 02-08-2016
In MD an infant is considered any child under 24 months . We can only have 2 children under 24 months in care . I wish it were 4 like many of you are allowed.
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sharlan 12:03 PM 02-08-2016
I would have to look it up, but I BELIEVE it can be a $250 per day fine. Just not worth it.
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LysesKids 12:23 PM 02-08-2016
Originally Posted by Annalee:
In Tennessee, providers can only have 4 children under 24 months whether Group (12) or Family (7). Sometimes I do wish the ages were 16-18 months and under because 24 months and under is a broad range.
See I agree with this and as such I age my babes out starting 18 months; they are technically a toddler at 16 months here so why not just do 0-15 months infant, 16-30 months toddler as it is in some states - it's written that way in the law, but ratios are set 4 under 24months which makes no sense
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Annalee 12:26 PM 02-08-2016
Originally Posted by LysesKids:
See I agree with this and as such I age my babes out starting 18 months; they are technically a toddler at 16 months here so why not just do 0-15 months infant, 16-30 months toddler as it is in some states - it's written that way in the law, but ratios are set 4 under 24months which makes no sense
They are working on (in the proposed new rules) infants to be 0-12 months BUT no change for the only 4 children-24 month and under rule! Rules are changing here for sure, but not necessarily what I want to be changing!
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Blackcat31 12:34 PM 02-08-2016
In MN, they define infant, toddlers and preschoolers differently between family care and center care.

For example:

Infants in FCC = 6 wks to 12 months
Infants in centers = 6 wks but less than 16 months old

Toddler in FCC = 12 months to 24 months
Toddlers in centers = 16 mos but less than 33 mos old.

Preschooler in FCC = 2 yrs to age 5 (even if not in school)
Preschooler in centers = 33 months but has not yet attended the first day of kindergarten

School age in FCC = 5 yrs (THE day they turn 5) to 11 yrs
School age in centers = Is at least of sufficient age to have attended the first day of kindergarten, or is eligible to enter kindergarten within the next four months, but is younger than 13 years of age
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Nisaryn 06:53 PM 02-08-2016
Originally Posted by Sergio:


I would love to sign a petition (of sorts) that would redefine an "infant" as a child who can't walk. If the child can walk, regardless of their age, I believe that they should be viewed as a toddler.
All the advice everyone already gave you is wonderful, I run an infant only FCC and can take up to 4 infants (only 3 actually since one is my own son) but I only keep 3 at a time for safety reasons.

As for the petition....stating that you can't call them an infant once they start walking is very much in the wrong. I have a 10 month old right now that can walk and I still very VERY much consider him an infant. Though I do agree the ages need to be changed (HUGE difference between an 6m and a 16m) I wouldn't base it on their abilities, at least not exactly as every child develops differently.
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daycarediva 09:48 AM 02-09-2016
Originally Posted by Play Care:


THIS is the way to go about it


I disagree with the infant classification in NY as well (FCC can have 2 under 24 months). I just turned away a child who needed care immediately who would be a very good fit for my program, but is 22m. I already have a 21m and an 18m.

Maybe 0-18m as an infant. Once they're walking, talking, down to one nap, no more baby food and bottles it's silly to consider them infants.

OP- infant care is hard to find so you are always going to get more calls for infants than other age groups. In addition, most parents want a preschool or some sort of curriculum/structure to their child's day at increasingly younger ages. I run a preschool program and start them at 18m. I've gotten preschool calls for children as young as 9m! I suggest setting up something like that, and advertising at mommy/me classes and library story time to attract 'older' kids. The other alternative is to wait for her current DC children to age up and enroll younger infants.
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Play Care 10:35 AM 02-09-2016
I agree. And I thought the union had made it so that infant was under 18 months but there was never a reg change.

On a side note I wonder if CSEA is wishing it had never stepped into the day care biz I feel the only thing good that's come from that is grant money. No real changes to regs that would benefit providers. If anything it's gotten worse/more restrictive.
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daycarediva 10:48 AM 02-09-2016
Originally Posted by Play Care:
I agree. And I thought the union had made it so that infant was under 18 months but there was never a reg change.

On a side note I wonder if CSEA is wishing it had never stepped into the day care biz I feel the only thing good that's come from that is grant money. No real changes to regs that would benefit providers. If anything it's gotten worse/more restrictive.
I have found some union perks-- they hooked me up with a reduction in our medical insurance through the obama care marketplace. We are both self employed and purchase our policy out of pocket, so that was awesome.

I have a union credit card- it has a great interest rate and cash back offers. I put my bills on auto pay on my union card and then pay it off monthly. It gives me a credit of over $50/month.

Our local union rep did attend the meetings with the state and providers when the new regs went into place, they asked for clarification and helped one local provider keep her 2 in home daycares. She is on site provider at one, and the state was attempting to force her to close the other- she opened both under the old regs when it was legal.
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daycarediva 10:49 AM 02-09-2016
oh and dd has applied for MANY scholarships through the union now that college applications are being done. She has received one worth $500 and has applied for several more.
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Play Care 11:19 AM 02-09-2016
That's good to hear it's being somewhat helpful!

We have insurance through DH, so I've seen the flyer for the insurance but didn't need it.

I didn't think we could have in homes unless it was our residence. how did they get around it?
(Cause I would love to have a separate day care!)
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Tags:infants, ratios - california, violations
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