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Daycare Center and Family Home Forum>Sleep Training 11 mo?
auntymimi 02:59 PM 08-05-2015
11mo dcb has been here about a month, and the napping is still basically nonexistent. Finally can get him to sleep, but he wakes up 20/30 min into nap unless being held. Mom is no help with this as she still lives with parents and grandma doesn't believe in cio. Both children still co sleep with mom, and baby is used to napping while being held at home. I really don't want to term. Can I sleep train just at daycare? Would that even work? I have a full house, obviously I can't spend hours holding dcb while he sleeps and only getting 30 min naps are so unhealthy at this age, not to mention the behavior issues resulting from sleep deprivation. Has anyone else done this?
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Blackcat31 05:36 PM 08-05-2015
Originally Posted by auntymimi:
11mo dcb has been here about a month, and the napping is still basically nonexistent. Finally can get him to sleep, but he wakes up 20/30 min into nap unless being held. Mom is no help with this as she still lives with parents and grandma doesn't believe in cio. Both children still co sleep with mom, and baby is used to napping while being held at home. I really don't want to term. Can I sleep train just at daycare? Would that even work? I have a full house, obviously I can't spend hours holding dcb while he sleeps and only getting 30 min naps are so unhealthy at this age, not to mention the behavior issues resulting from sleep deprivation. Has anyone else done this?
I am sorry you are a tough spot.

I have no advice as I just can't do it... I just can't accommodate a child that doesn't nap well. If I had only a couple children, I might be more flexible with that stuff but I am a large group daycare.

Hoping someone with more experience with nap issues will reply.
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auntymimi 06:12 PM 08-05-2015
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
I am sorry you are a tough spot.

I have no advice as I just can't do it... I just can't accommodate a child that doesn't nap well. If I had only a couple children, I might be more flexible with that stuff but I am a large group daycare.

Hoping someone with more experience with nap issues will reply.
Me too.
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Febby 06:24 PM 08-05-2015
Whether or not it works will depend on the individual child and how long/often he is with you.

I used to work at a center with extended hours. Some of our children were there for ~16 hours a day. Our schedule, rules, and techniques were their "normal" and everything at home was "weird." Sleep training them usually worked. For the others, sometimes it worked. Not that I would recommend keeping a child in care for ~16 hours/day on a regular basis.

Once they hit 12 months, we (all the centers I've been in) will cot/mat train them for naptime(s) and it's unusual, IME, to see any serious issues with that past the first couple weeks unless the child has other issues going on (or if the parents are those ones who like to let their child sleep until 11, then drop off at 11:45, when nap starts at 12...)
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auntymimi 06:38 PM 08-05-2015
Originally Posted by Febby:
Whether or not it works will depend on the individual child and how long/often he is with you.

I used to work at a center with extended hours. Some of our children were there for ~16 hours a day. Our schedule, rules, and techniques were their "normal" and everything at home was "weird." Sleep training them usually worked. For the others, sometimes it worked. Not that I would recommend keeping a child in care for ~16 hours/day on a regular basis.

Once they hit 12 months, we (all the centers I've been in) will cot/mat train them for naptime(s) and it's unusual, IME, to see any serious issues with that past the first couple weeks unless the child has other issues going on (or if the parents are those ones who like to let their child sleep until 11, then drop off at 11:45, when nap starts at 12...)
Usually 9 hours a day, 5-6 days a week. I know he's also going to be transitioning to 1 nap a day very soon. Mom works 12-8, so he gets here right after am nap at home, but late afternoon is unbearable, he's so tired and grumpy right when it's time to fix dinner. He needs to sleep, I need him to sleep, but the only way for him to get it is by learning to self soothe. If I put him down awake but drowsy he's going to scream bloody murder, I just know it. Idk, maybe next week when my school agers go back we'll give it the ol college try.
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Leigh 08:00 PM 08-05-2015
I had a child that has literally never been set down at home in her entire 7 months of life. She's held or worn 24/7. Her mom is an exhausted wreck. She sleeps on top of her mom because it's "the only way she will sleep". She didn't nap at home pretty much ever. Her mom said she would zonk out for 20-40 minute naps, and one of those is all she would have all day. She took LOOOONG naps at my house because she was exhausted. Sleeping on her mom meant that she never got restorative sleep. She fussed the first several times I put her in the crib, and I would just leave her there for increasing amounts of time. I'd pick her up after a few minutes, then we'd go longer each day as her fussing times got shorter. Within less than 2 weeks, she was going to sleep pretty much instantly when I put her down. Her mom was amazed when I would tell her that she would take 3 hour naps here (morning-afternoons were about 1 hour). That poor child was so tired. She's now in "Grandma Care"-I really wonder how that's going for Grandma!
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childcaremom 01:49 AM 08-06-2015
Originally Posted by auntymimi:
Usually 9 hours a day, 5-6 days a week. I know he's also going to be transitioning to 1 nap a day very soon. Mom works 12-8, so he gets here right after am nap at home, but late afternoon is unbearable, he's so tired and grumpy right when it's time to fix dinner. He needs to sleep, I need him to sleep, but the only way for him to get it is by learning to self soothe. If I put him down awake but drowsy he's going to scream bloody murder, I just know it. Idk, maybe next week when my school agers go back we'll give it the ol college try.
This is the age that I typically start dcks. 10 months.

I can and will train them here but usually I have a frank conversation with parents about what our day and routine looks like. Most dcks come trained to our routine and schedule but a few don't.

I start them off sleeping separately from the group so that if there is fussing, it won't disturb anyone else. After 2 weeks I put them in with everyone else. Even if they do cry, my group will adjust to it and 98% of the time sleep right through it.

I think the huge problem for you is when the little guy arrives. He is able to nap for as long as he wants at home in the morning so of course will not want to sleep for you. I don't allow drop offs after 9 am and that lets me be in charge of morning naps (no longer than 1 hour) so that I know they will rest in the afternoon. My nap schedule would be 9-10 am and then 12:30-3 for the afternoon.
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permanentvacation 06:24 AM 08-06-2015
I have done daycare for about 25 years. Until about 4 years ago, every baby and young child naturally took at least a good 2 hour nap. But over the past few years, every baby I have gotten sleeps only for about 20 minutes! The parents tell me that on the interview and act like that's a normal nap time!

I have succeeded at sleep training a few of them and failed at sleep training some of them which lead to me terminating them. My suggestions are: Wean the baby into sleeping longer. Learn when the baby is falling asleep naturally and then change everyone's nap time to be during that time and then slowly adjust your nap time back to the regular time. Playing music fairly loud helps A LOT!! For example, my normal nap time is 12 - 2. But the baby naturally falls asleep at 11. So I start laying the kids down at 10:30 (before the baby is actually ready to fall asleep to teach him that he will lay down when I tell him to, not just when he falls over from exhaustion). For a few days, he fights it and cries until 11.

After you get the baby to calmly lay down 1/2 hour before he naturally falls asleep, then start backing up the time you lay the kids down by 1/2 hour or so every couple of days until you are back on your normal nap schedule.

Starting on the first day I have the baby, as soon as the baby wakes up and tries to sit up, I immediately lay him back down and repeat "Lay Down and go night-night". Each time he tries to sit up, I lay him back down and tell him to lay down and go night-night. Sometimes the process takes a while before the baby gives in and stops trying to sit up. I literally can't pat the baby on the back or rub his back for long because I have to put them in a play pen for nap time and I can't bend over a play pen patting his back for too long before I feel like I'm breaking my own back. I do pat his back or rub his back a time or two, but not much. I simply can't stand in that position long enough to do so.

To keep the baby awake and not crying past his natural time to sleep (which is earlier than your normal nap time), do activities with the baby. I have found it helps keep the baby interested and awake more if I do preschool activities with the baby rather than having the baby play with the same 'ole baby toys he's used to. I think that since I am having the baby do things that are different, new to him, and having him sit with the older kids makes it all more interesting to him because he's not used to doing those things. So he stays awake longer simply out of curiosity and interest in the new activities. I include the baby in all of our preschool activities. This helps me to keep the baby awake through his normal morning nap time so I can start weaning him out of his morning nap (at 11 am) and start backing his nap time up to our normal nap time.

In my experience, it takes A LOT of work, A LOT of patients and a FEW WEEKS to sleep train a child. Especially if the parents are not willing to train the child at home to your daycare schedule. As far as I know, only ONE of my parents in 25 years has actually told me that they are keeping the child on the daycare schedule while at home. Most parents are not going to rearrange their weekend plans/errands, etc. to coincide with the daycare schedule. So I think most of us daycare providers are on our own with training kids to our routine.

Also remember to BLARE THAT MUSIC! I started doing that after working at 3 different daycare centers. I worked at one for about a week. It was an open floor plan design and at nap time, each of the 4 different teachers blared their radio on different stations. It gave me the worst headache every day. It sounded like 4 different rock concerts going on at once! But every child fell right to sleep and slept the entire nap time! The other 2 centers I worked at had separate rooms with closed doors for each classroom. But they also blared the radio at nap time and all of the kids slept perfectly.

It takes me about 3-4 weeks to sleep train a child. If I can't train them in a month, I typically terminate them. Keep in mind that since the baby's parents aren't training them to your schedule over the weekend, the first couple of Mondays, you have to start all over again as if it's his first day of training to your schedule.

Good luck! I hope you can get the baby trained to the schedule you need him/her on.
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permanentvacation 06:30 AM 08-06-2015
One of the reasons I have problems with babies at nap time is that many parents lay their babies down with bottles which I can not do here at daycare. And I didn't do with my personal children either because I know that it is not healthy for a baby as it can lead to baby bottle rot and that it is a choking hazard. I also can't put toys or stuffed animals in the baby's play pen at nap time and many parents have trained their baby to sleep with an item of some sort. So, here I am every day trying to get a baby to go to sleep with no stuffed animal/toy and no bottle then every night and on the weekends, his parents give him a bottle and stuffed animal/toy to sleep with! I'm fighting a losing battle here! So it really does take a while to get a baby used to sleeping with certain rules and at a specific time here during the weekday while they can sleep completely differently at home at night and on the weekends.
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Blackcat31 06:34 AM 08-06-2015
Originally Posted by permanentvacation:
I have done daycare for about 25 years. Until about 4 years ago, every baby and young child naturally took at least a good 2 hour nap. But over the past few years, every baby I have gotten sleeps only for about 20 minutes! The parents tell me that on the interview and act like that's a normal nap time!

I have succeeded at sleep training a few of them and failed at sleep training some of them which lead to me terminating them. My suggestions are: Wean the baby into sleeping longer. Learn when the baby is falling asleep naturally and then change everyone's nap time to be during that time and then slowly adjust your nap time back to the regular time. Playing music fairly loud helps A LOT!! For example, my normal nap time is 12 - 2. But the baby naturally falls asleep at 11. So I start laying the kids down at 10:30 (before the baby is actually ready to fall asleep to teach him that he will lay down when I tell him to, not just when he falls over from exhaustion). For a few days, he fights it and cries until 11.

After you get the baby to calmly lay down 1/2 hour before he naturally falls asleep, then start backing up the time you lay the kids down by 1/2 hour or so every couple of days until you are back on your normal nap schedule.

Starting on the first day I have the baby, as soon as the baby wakes up and tries to sit up, I immediately lay him back down and repeat "Lay Down and go night-night". Each time he tries to sit up, I lay him back down and tell him to lay down and go night-night. Sometimes the process takes a while before the baby gives in and stops trying to sit up. I literally can't pat the baby on the back or rub his back for long because I have to put them in a play pen for nap time and I can't bend over a play pen patting his back for too long before I feel like I'm breaking my own back. I do pat his back or rub his back a time or two, but not much. I simply can't stand in that position long enough to do so.

To keep the baby awake and not crying past his natural time to sleep (which is earlier than your normal nap time), do activities with the baby. I have found it helps keep the baby interested and awake more if I do preschool activities with the baby rather than having the baby play with the same 'ole baby toys he's used to. I think that since I am having the baby do things that are different, new to him, and having him sit with the older kids makes it all more interesting to him because he's not used to doing those things. So he stays awake longer simply out of curiosity and interest in the new activities. I include the baby in all of our preschool activities. This helps me to keep the baby awake through his normal morning nap time so I can start weaning him out of his morning nap (at 11 am) and start backing his nap time up to our normal nap time.

In my experience, it takes A LOT of work, A LOT of patients and a FEW WEEKS to sleep train a child. Especially if the parents are not willing to train the child at home to your daycare schedule. As far as I know, only ONE of my parents in 25 years has actually told me that they are keeping the child on the daycare schedule while at home. Most parents are not going to rearrange their weekend plans/errands, etc. to coincide with the daycare schedule. So I think most of us daycare providers are on our own with training kids to our routine.

Also remember to BLARE THAT MUSIC! I started doing that after working at 3 different daycare centers. I worked at one for about a week. It was an open floor plan design and at nap time, each of the 4 different teachers blared their radio on different stations. It gave me the worst headache every day. It sounded like 4 different rock concerts going on at once! But every child fell right to sleep and slept the entire nap time! The other 2 centers I worked at had separate rooms with closed doors for each classroom. But they also blared the radio at nap time and all of the kids slept perfectly.

It takes me about 3-4 weeks to sleep train a child. If I can't train them in a month, I typically terminate them. Keep in mind that since the baby's parents aren't training them to your schedule over the weekend, the first couple of Mondays, you have to start all over again as if it's his first day of training to your schedule.

Good luck! I hope you can get the baby trained to the schedule you need him/her on.
While I agree with in regards to you method of sleep training, your method involves a good deal of crying and protesting from the baby and it's my understanding that the OP's baby parents are adamantly against allowing the child to CIO or cry for any length of time in general when it comes to napping.

If parents are restrictive to not using methods that do involve crying on the baby's part, then it's hard to train them unless you devote all your time and attention to just that one child. In group care, that is usually impossible.
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permanentvacation 06:54 AM 08-06-2015
Oh yeah, if the parents are demanding that the child not cry or be upset while at daycare, then the child would have to go!

A baby or child transitioning from one on one care, whether the child was with a parent at home, nanny, or babysitter to a group environment, there will almost always be an adjustment period where the baby or child gets upset and/or cries while he/she adjusts to new schedules/routines, and the realism that he/she is not the only person that needs the care taker's attention/assistance.

I always tell my parents during interviews that their child will very likely go through an adjustment period of typically up to 3 weeks. During that time, they might get upset, cry, refuse to eat, protest nap time, be happy to be here one day and then say they hate being here or cry and scream like you are dropping them off at Freddy Krueger's house the next day, etc. until he/she adjusts to our routine and rules.

So, the parent of the OP's baby needs to understand that their baby WILL be upset and cry during his/her adjustment period. If they are unable to accept that, I would have to tell them that I wouldn't be able to watch their baby.
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auntymimi 09:49 AM 08-06-2015
Originally Posted by childcaremom:
This is the age that I typically start dcks. 10 months.

I can and will train them here but usually I have a frank conversation with parents about what our day and routine looks like. Most dcks come trained to our routine and schedule but a few don't.

I start them off sleeping separately from the group so that if there is fussing, it won't disturb anyone else. After 2 weeks I put them in with everyone else. Even if they do cry, my group will adjust to it and 98% of the time sleep right through it.

I think the huge problem for you is when the little guy arrives. He is able to nap for as long as he wants at home in the morning so of course will not want to sleep for you. I don't allow drop offs after 9 am and that lets me be in charge of morning naps (no longer than 1 hour) so that I know they will rest in the afternoon. My nap schedule would be 9-10 am and then 12:30-3 for the afternoon.
Unfortunately, they're on subsidy as are most of my kids, and I only get paid for the hours parents work. All of my kids are 2nd shifters, but he's the only problem sleeper I have. According to mom, he usually doesn't take much of an am nap, usually falls asleep on the 20min car ride to care, so I know he,s tired. He'll fall asleep with help (rocking, walking, feeding ect) but has a hard time staying asleep and needs to be "soothed" back. A little much for a 10 mo imo. I feel bad doing cio on him, but I really don't have any other option at this point, as he can't seem to get himself off/ back to sleep.
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auntymimi 10:06 AM 08-06-2015
Originally Posted by permanentvacation:
Oh yeah, if the parents are demanding that the child not cry or be upset while at daycare, then the child would have to go!

A baby or child transitioning from one on one care, whether the child was with a parent at home, nanny, or babysitter to a group environment, there will almost always be an adjustment period where the baby or child gets upset and/or cries while he/she adjusts to new schedules/routines, and the realism that he/she is not the only person that needs the care taker's attention/assistance.

I always tell my parents during interviews that their child will very likely go through an adjustment period of typically up to 3 weeks. During that time, they might get upset, cry, refuse to eat, protest nap time, be happy to be here one day and then say they hate being here or cry and scream like you are dropping them off at Freddy Krueger's house the next day, etc. until he/she adjusts to our routine and rules.

So, the parent of the OP's baby needs to understand that their baby WILL be upset and cry during his/her adjustment period. If they are unable to accept that, I would have to tell them that I wouldn't be able to watch their baby.
Oh, mom could care less what I do to get him to sleep, if he sleeps or not. As long as he's not on her clock Kwim? If he doesn't sleep for me he's in bed as soon as he gets home, so she's ok either way. She doesn't want to train him herself as nobody in the family can stand to hear baby cry. I love the little fella though and I know that learning to self soothe is what's needed for him, but if I'm the only one putting in work, I'm not sure if it will even stick? I've sleep trained plenty of toddlers for dc but I usually don't work with kids this young. In fact all my toddlers sleep better here than at home. I just personally have mixed feelings about being the only caregiver in his life to use cio when he comes from such an attachment background. Great advice on the radio, it works wonders for the big kids. I guess I really just need y'all to tell me that cio isn't going to cause him irreparable harm psychologically, lol.
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auntymimi 10:11 AM 08-06-2015
Originally Posted by permanentvacation:
I have done daycare for about 25 years. Until about 4 years ago, every baby and young child naturally took at least a good 2 hour nap. But over the past few years, every baby I have gotten sleeps only for about 20 minutes! The parents tell me that on the interview and act like that's a normal nap time!

I have succeeded at sleep training a few of them and failed at sleep training some of them which lead to me terminating them. My suggestions are: Wean the baby into sleeping longer. Learn when the baby is falling asleep naturally and then change everyone's nap time to be during that time and then slowly adjust your nap time back to the regular time. Playing music fairly loud helps A LOT!! For example, my normal nap time is 12 - 2. But the baby naturally falls asleep at 11. So I start laying the kids down at 10:30 (before the baby is actually ready to fall asleep to teach him that he will lay down when I tell him to, not just when he falls over from exhaustion). For a few days, he fights it and cries until 11.

After you get the baby to calmly lay down 1/2 hour before he naturally falls asleep, then start backing up the time you lay the kids down by 1/2 hour or so every couple of days until you are back on your normal nap schedule.

Starting on the first day I have the baby, as soon as the baby wakes up and tries to sit up, I immediately lay him back down and repeat "Lay Down and go night-night". Each time he tries to sit up, I lay him back down and tell him to lay down and go night-night. Sometimes the process takes a while before the baby gives in and stops trying to sit up. I literally can't pat the baby on the back or rub his back for long because I have to put them in a play pen for nap time and I can't bend over a play pen patting his back for too long before I feel like I'm breaking my own back. I do pat his back or rub his back a time or two, but not much. I simply can't stand in that position long enough to do so.

To keep the baby awake and not crying past his natural time to sleep (which is earlier than your normal nap time), do activities with the baby. I have found it helps keep the baby interested and awake more if I do preschool activities with the baby rather than having the baby play with the same 'ole baby toys he's used to. I think that since I am having the baby do things that are different, new to him, and having him sit with the older kids makes it all more interesting to him because he's not used to doing those things. So he stays awake longer simply out of curiosity and interest in the new activities. I include the baby in all of our preschool activities. This helps me to keep the baby awake through his normal morning nap time so I can start weaning him out of his morning nap (at 11 am) and start backing his nap time up to our normal nap time.

In my experience, it takes A LOT of work, A LOT of patients and a FEW WEEKS to sleep train a child. Especially if the parents are not willing to train the child at home to your daycare schedule. As far as I know, only ONE of my parents in 25 years has actually told me that they are keeping the child on the daycare schedule while at home. Most parents are not going to rearrange their weekend plans/errands, etc. to coincide with the daycare schedule. So I think most of us daycare providers are on our own with training kids to our routine.

Also remember to BLARE THAT MUSIC! I started doing that after working at 3 different daycare centers. I worked at one for about a week. It was an open floor plan design and at nap time, each of the 4 different teachers blared their radio on different stations. It gave me the worst headache every day. It sounded like 4 different rock concerts going on at once! But every child fell right to sleep and slept the entire nap time! The other 2 centers I worked at had separate rooms with closed doors for each classroom. But they also blared the radio at nap time and all of the kids slept perfectly.

It takes me about 3-4 weeks to sleep train a child. If I can't train them in a month, I typically terminate them. Keep in mind that since the baby's parents aren't training them to your schedule over the weekend, the first couple of Mondays, you have to start all over again as if it's his first day of training to your schedule.

Good luck! I hope you can get the baby trained to the schedule you need him/her on.
I will be doing this. He doesn't have to sleep when the others do, just sleep at all,lol.
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mommyneedsadayoff 01:54 PM 08-06-2015
Originally Posted by auntymimi:
Unfortunately, they're on subsidy as are most of my kids, and I only get paid for the hours parents work. All of my kids are 2nd shifters, but he's the only problem sleeper I have. According to mom, he usually doesn't take much of an am nap, usually falls asleep on the 20min car ride to care, so I know he,s tired. He'll fall asleep with help (rocking, walking, feeding ect) but has a hard time staying asleep and needs to be "soothed" back. A little much for a 10 mo imo. I feel bad doing cio on him, but I really don't have any other option at this point, as he can't seem to get himself off/ back to sleep.
I wouldn't feel bad. He is tired and you are actually doing him a great favor by teaching him how to soothe himself to sleep. In the past ten years, most of my babies come to me with horrible sleep habits, so teaching them to self soothe is one of the first things we accomplish. They all figure it out and sleep great after a week or two. Some of them cry more than others, some cry only the first day, some cry everyday at nap for a week. Just be cosistent and reassure them that they are fine. Right now, all my babies co sleep at home (one literally sleeps on top of her mom) and cat nap, but at my house, they sleep in a PNP and lay down awake, usually sleeping for about 1.5-3 hours. The parents are amazed I can get them to do that, but I always tell them that I have very little to do with it. I just give them the space they need and they do the rest. You would be amazed how well kids can figure out the whole sleep stuff if you just get out of their way and let them sleep!
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Indianadaycare 03:09 PM 08-12-2015
[quote=mommyneedsadayoff;549575]I wouldn't feel bad. He is tired and you are actually doing him a great favor by teaching him how to soothe himself to sleep. In the past ten years, most of my babies come to me with horrible sleep habits, so teaching them to self soothe is one of the first things we accomplish. They all figure it out and sleep great after a week or two. Some of them cry more than others, some cry only the first day, some cry everyday at nap for a week. Just be cosistent and reassure them that they are fine. Right now, all my babies co sleep at home (one literally sleeps on top of her mom) and cat nap, but at my house, they sleep in a PNP and lay down awake, usually sleeping for about 1.5-3 hours. The parents are amazed I can get them to do that, but I always tell them that I have very little to do with it. I just give them the space they need and they do the rest.


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auntymimi 09:56 AM 08-14-2015
Told mom I will be sleep training when the big kids go back to school. She admitted that she usually nurses him to sleep, so it will be an adjustment I'm sure. Poor thing has literally been surviving on cat naps this whole time, I can't wait to see his little personality when he's well rested.
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Tags:infant - sleeping issues, sleep - solutions, won't sleep
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