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Daycare Center and Family Home Forum>New Rescue and Complaint From Parent
Brooksie 06:07 AM 08-27-2013
Over the weekend we rescued a pup from a shelter across the bridge. They said she was an "Amercian Bulldog/Dalmation Mix" but she definitely looks like a pitbull, which I have no problem with because I love the bully breeds and think they have an unjustly bad rep. All of my families have had more than a weeks notice that we were getting her and we even showed them pictures so they knew what to expect. She was with a foster family that had a 2 year old in the house and they said she was great with children, other dogs and all people. When we went to pick her up Sunday all of those things were very apparent. She was so sweet and gentle and just a wonderful dog.

When we got home, my current dog who does NOT like other male dogs and has trouble meeting other dogs in general, got a long wonderfully with her. We've taken her on a few walks and took her to the vet and she's been a peach with everyone that's approached her. She's only 1 year old and 45lbs and is very playful but is learning boundaries around the kids. Sometimes she wants them to play ball with her and doesn't quite understand that they don't know what to do. But moral of the story is that she doesn't have an ounce of aggression.

So far all the moms have met her and think she's adorable and very sweet, while a little excitable, because she's a puppy and they all seem fine with it. One of my infants (14 mo and my extreme crier) is scared of almost everything and was nervous of her at first but today is doing great with her. Well yesterday his dad picked him up which is very out of the norm. I've had him 6-7 months and dad has picked him maybe 3 times. I've never really liked dad as he just has a strange presence around him. He's very tall and not terribly personable. When he came to the back gate to pick up K both dogs ran up and were barking (my older dog is LOUD and barks at all the parents every time they pick up. Not something unusual) and he stated aloud that we had a new puppy (I guess dcm didn't mention it to him) and then he walked in the gate and took her ball from her and threw it for her to play fetch. No problems were apparent...

Well today at drop off DCM tells me that DCD told her that Irie (Ireland, our new pup) had growled at him at the gate and bared her teeth with her hair standing up on end.... I have NOT seen this behavior and I did NOT see this happen at pick up even though I was closely watching to see her reaction. I didn't even get the impression from him that he was off put. I took great offense to this. I feel like he's full of it and just trying to cause trouble because of what her breed looks like. My response to her was that of confusion and I said that I had not seen that or seen any of those behaviors from her. She kinda just shrugged like, 'well that's what he said to it must be true'. I sent her a text after she left saying that maybe it was his height that threw her off, but I could assure her that we haven't seen any of that behavior and neither did her foster parents, and all she responded with was "maybe."

My boyfriend says don't sweat it, and that it sounds like he's full of it but its really bothering me. I'm very anti-dog discrimination and an advocate of the bully breed and even with that it just bothers me that someone is trying to stir up trouble. What would you guys do in this situation? Just let it go? This dog is precious and sweet with the kids and everyone she meets. She's amazing. I don't like that someone is going around saying she's showing signs of aggression.

The only time I've heard her growl is if she's playing tug of war or wrestling and playing with Odie, our other dog. She's a puppy... puppy's do that. But this is getting to me. What do you guys think about this?
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Maria2013 06:14 AM 08-27-2013
I would let it go but I would separate the dogs at time of pick up cause the more they bond with the kids, the more they resent parents picking them up...that I say from experience, I never thought my sweet little dog would go after anyone, let alone a person (dkd) he knew for years
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NeedaVaca 06:22 AM 08-27-2013
I would keep your dogs away from the kids at all times. It only takes one time...you may say it's impossible now but you never know. One time is all it will take for you to lose all of your kids and I wouldn't want to take that risk.
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Maria2013 06:30 AM 08-27-2013
Originally Posted by NeedaVaca:
I would keep your dogs away from the kids at all times. It only takes one time...you may say it's impossible now but you never know. One time is all it will take for you to lose all of your kids and I wouldn't want to take that risk.

that's what I've been doing since that incident, even though no real harm was done (just scare) I didn't want to take the chance
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blandino 06:45 AM 08-27-2013
I had the exact same issue. Even down to the mostly absentee DCD coming to check out the dogs.
Last summer I rescued two dogs, one is a boxer/lab, the other is a mix but definitely has some Pitt bull, we have had a pitt/lab mix before, and I have no worries about the breed.

We rescued them on very little notice, and sent out a text letting everyone know over the weekend. They had no interaction with the kids, but until we had a section of the yard fenced off - they would be on tie-outs on the opposite end of the yard that the kids play in. Not ideal, but we had no real warning time that we were getting these dogs.

Well DCM comes in Monday, and doesn't say anything. DCD comes in Tuesday, who we have seen a handful of times in 2 years, and. He says he purposefully wore dark sunglasses and a hat, and said he went up to the dogs and did everything wrong petting the dogs, to see how they reacted. They did great of course. Then he questioned our judgement about taking in rescue dogs, since we don't know their history. And questioned our judgment as a whole about having the dogs.

In retrospect, I wouldn't have changed a thing, and let them leave or termed them. The whole going into the yard to provoke the dogs is ridiculous.

I sent both of them a text stating that our plans for the dog was to have a fence put up for a portion of the yard, but since we had only had them 3 days we hadn't had the time yet. I moved the dog's crates to the garage until we had the fence put up. I regret that because it was unnecessary, and the dogs were in a far corner of the yard that the kids aren't allowed to play in. I put my dogs Ina hot garage, unecessarily, and I regret folding to them.
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MyAngels 06:50 AM 08-27-2013
Originally Posted by Maria2013:
I would let it go but I would separate the dogs at time of pick up cause the more they bond with the kids, the more they resent parents picking them up...that I say from experience, I never thought my sweet little dog would go after anyone, let alone a person (dkd) he knew for years
I agree with this. Back when I had dogs I had a mom once who showed up unexpectedly during the day and I didn't have a chance to put the dogs away. She claimed that my barker bared his teeth and nipped at her. Even though we never saw that behavior prior to that it was all I needed to ensure that my dogs were completely separated during drop off and pick up times, plus away from the doors at all times.

Have you checked with your insurance to see if there are any exclusions as far as the types of breeds that you have? I read somewhere once that some insurance companies won't cover claims that arise from incidents with certain breeds. I don't have first hand knowledge, but you might take a look at your policy just to be sure.
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Brooksie 07:02 AM 08-27-2013
Originally Posted by MyAngels:
I agree with this. Back when I had dogs I had a mom once who showed up unexpectedly during the day and I didn't have a chance to put the dogs away. She claimed that my barker bared his teeth and nipped at her. Even though we never saw that behavior prior to that it was all I needed to ensure that my dogs were completely separated during drop off and pick up times, plus away from the doors at all times.

Have you checked with your insurance to see if there are any exclusions as far as the types of breeds that you have? I read somewhere once that some insurance companies won't cover claims that arise from incidents with certain breeds. I don't have first hand knowledge, but you might take a look at your policy just to be sure.
The record says that she is an American Bulldog/Dalmation Mix. NOT a pit bull. There is no reason they wouldn't be able to cover her because of what she 'looks' like. My other dog is a Shar-pei/lab mix and most everyone thinks he is a pit but definitely isnt.

I don't ever plan on separating my dogs from the kids all day because I have NO problems with the dogs and the kids. My old dog Odie is a notorious barker and barks at all the parents every time, but if they stay 2-3 minutes they see how amazing he is and they all love him. This new girl is no different. Once all the parents leave she chills right down. They are both lying on the carpet on the other side of the play room sunning while the kids are playing with various things. I have never separated Odie from the dcks and I am not going to start now because of this new girl. That would break his heart. These kids are his life and the new girl is doing wonderfully too. If she starts getting excitable I just put her outside to run off the energy and comes back in and lies down.

I will probably start putting the dogs out during drop off and pick up times as a precaution but I'm not going to keep my dogs out of the playroom.
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Brooksie 07:06 AM 08-27-2013
Originally Posted by blandino:
I had the exact same issue. Even down to the mostly absentee DCD coming to check out the dogs.
Last summer I rescued two dogs, one is a boxer/lab, the other is a mix but definitely has some Pitt bull, we have had a pitt/lab mix before, and I have no worries about the breed.

We rescued them on very little notice, and sent out a text letting everyone know over the weekend. They had no interaction with the kids, but until we had a section of the yard fenced off - they would be on tie-outs on the opposite end of the yard that the kids play in. Not ideal, but we had no real warning time that we were getting these dogs.

Well DCM comes in Monday, and doesn't say anything. DCD comes in Tuesday, who we have seen a handful of times in 2 years, and. He says he purposefully wore dark sunglasses and a hat, and said he went up to the dogs and did everything wrong petting the dogs, to see how they reacted. They did great of course. Then he questioned our judgement about taking in rescue dogs, since we don't know their history. And questioned our judgment as a whole about having the dogs.

In retrospect, I wouldn't have changed a thing, and let them leave or termed them. The whole going into the yard to provoke the dogs is ridiculous.

I sent both of them a text stating that our plans for the dog was to have a fence put up for a portion of the yard, but since we had only had them 3 days we hadn't had the time yet. I moved the dog's crates to the garage until we had the fence put up. I regret that because it was unnecessary, and the dogs were in a far corner of the yard that the kids aren't allowed to play in. I put my dogs Ina hot garage, unecessarily, and I regret folding to them.
I already have a separate fenced area in our yard for the dogs to use for 'potty' breaks. But I let them out in the yard to run when we go out with the kids. The fenced area isn't big enough for them to run around, just go pee or poo, and I treat my dogs like family. They need that time to get out in the yard just as much as the kids do.
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MyAngels 07:07 AM 08-27-2013
Originally Posted by Brooksie:
The record says that she is an American Bulldog/Dalmation Mix. NOT a pit bull. There is no reason they wouldn't be able to cover her because of what she 'looks' like. My other dog is a Shar-pei/lab mix and most everyone thinks he is a pit but definitely isnt.

I don't ever plan on separating my dogs from the kids all day because I have NO problems with the dogs and the kids. My old dog Odie is a notorious barker and barks at all the parents every time, but if they stay 2-3 minutes they see how amazing he is and they all love him. This new girl is no different. Once all the parents leave she chills right down. They are both lying on the carpet on the other side of the play room sunning while the kids are playing with various things. I have never separated Odie from the dcks and I am not going to start now because of this new girl. That would break his heart. These kids are his life and the new girl is doing wonderfully too. If she starts getting excitable I just put her outside to run off the energy and comes back in and lies down.

I will probably start putting the dogs out during drop off and pick up times as a precaution but I'm not going to keep my dogs out of the playroom.
I wasn't suggesting that you separate the dogs from the kids. I never did that. I only made sure the dogs weren't put in a position to bark when parents were picking up and dropping off or when anyone came to the door. Other than that my dogs had free roam of our home.

I don't know anything at all about the breeds you have, the insurance thing was just a suggestion that came to mind, no offense intended.
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blandino 07:09 AM 08-27-2013
Originally Posted by Brooksie:
I already have a separate fenced area in our yard for the dogs to use for 'potty' breaks. But I let them out in the yard to run when we go out with the kids. The fenced area isn't big enough for them to run around, just go pee or poo, and I treat my dogs like family. They need that time to get out in the yard just as much as the kids do.
Absolutely agree !!! Our dogs go in the fenced portion while the kids go out to play, and are free the rest of the day.

I definitely regret folding to this families complaint/demands.
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Brooksie 07:12 AM 08-27-2013
Originally Posted by MyAngels:
I wasn't suggesting that you separate the dogs from the kids. I never did that. I only made sure the dogs weren't put in a position to bark when parents were picking up and dropping off or when anyone came to the door. Other than that my dogs had free roam of our home.

I don't know anything at all about the breeds you have, the insurance thing was just a suggestion that came to mind, no offense intended.
No offense taken! The response that I should separate the dogs at all times was from a different pp. I think I will start putting them outside during pick up or drop offs. Thanks for the input!
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daycare 07:14 AM 08-27-2013
Not to be rude but you can't control what those dogs MIGHT do.

I have had many bad experiences with dogs. Most of the owners would say, oh don't worry they don't bite. Guess what, I got bit. The owners of the dog are in complete shock.

I know that the dogs smell my fear and they are bothered by it. I have been bitten by golden retrievers, labs, chow, ****zu, and mixed dogs.

I won't go into detail of my story, but my sisters face and my leg will never be the same.

If I were you, I would NOT let the dogs around the kids. Just my advice.
You never know.
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Blackcat31 07:22 AM 08-27-2013
This is a common issue for providers who have or get a dog.

Some families will be okay with it and some won't. Nothing wrong with either choice.

IMHO, it really doesn't matter what you did or didn't witness at pick up. What matters is if the parents feel comfortable leaving their child in your care while your dog is present. If they aren't ok with it, that is their choice.

Just like it was YOUR choice to get a dog....kwim?

I have an X-large breed dog and have heard a myriad of comments and stereotypes relating to my dog's breed. I have cats that are an integral part of my family and understand a family's need to have/want pets. I get it.

However, as a parent I personally would never enroll my child in a daycare that had a dog. I just wouldn't.

OP~ I think you need to set some boundaries for the safety of ALL the children (and parents) enrolled about whether or not your dog will or won't be intermingled with your daycare kids or if it will be kenneled or crated during business hours.

I also think you should NEVER use the argument that this dog has never been aggressive or any argument similar as she IS still a dog and dogs should NEVER be blindly trusted to not be aggressive or display similar behaviors....especially around children....who can be equally as unpredictable. kwim?

Good luck and I hope you don't lose a family because of this but either way, I would prepare for it.
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Brooksie 07:25 AM 08-27-2013
Originally Posted by daycare:
Not to be rude but you can't control what those dogs MIGHT do.

I have had many bad experiences with dogs. Most of the owners would say, oh don't worry they don't bite. Guess what, I got bit. The owners of the dog are in complete shock.

I know that the dogs smell my fear and they are bothered by it. I have been bitten by golden retrievers, labs, chow, ****zu, and mixed dogs.

I won't go into detail of my story, but my sisters face and my leg will never be the same.

If I were you, I would NOT let the dogs around the kids. Just my advice.
You never know.
Wow, I'm really sorry you've had those experiences. That's really unnatural. I also don't mean to be rude but with that track record (I totally understand your fear of dogs after those experiences) but its got to be a response to your body language and yes your fear. I've never known any one to be bit by so many dogs. That being said I tell everyone on the phone interview that I have dogs and if someone does not like dogs, is afraid of dogs, or allergic I automatically tell them this is not the FCC for them. My dog(s) are VERY well socialized and are given a lot of varying experiences to get them used to people, things and animals. The only time you have a vicious dog is because that's how they were trained or neglected. People that don't actively work with their dogs are asking for issues. I am not that person.
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Leigh 07:37 AM 08-27-2013
Originally Posted by NeedaVaca:
I would keep your dogs away from the kids at all times. It only takes one time...you may say it's impossible now but you never know. One time is all it will take for you to lose all of your kids and I wouldn't want to take that risk.
NOTHING is impossible, and ANY dog of ANY breed could bite a child. Nearly all dog bites in children are provoked by the child (often inadvertently). My dogs have no contact with my daycare kids (other than walking past them on their way outdoors). They're great with kids, but I would not be able to monitor every kid's interaction with each dog, and unless there is DIRECT supervision, I don't feel preschoolers are safe around any dog.

It's entirely possible that what the father claimed is true. Just like with human children, dogs go through phases of fear, testing boundaries, etc. A dog in a new home, especially, may have been a little spooked by a large stranger approaching.

Breed doesn't matter here at all. I would separate the kids and dogs.
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Brooksie 07:39 AM 08-27-2013
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
This is a common issue for providers who have or get a dog.

Some families will be okay with it and some won't. Nothing wrong with either choice.

IMHO, it really doesn't matter what you did or didn't witness at pick up. What matters is if the parents feel comfortable leaving their child in your care while your dog is present. If they aren't ok with it, that is their choice.

Just like it was YOUR choice to get a dog....kwim?

I have an X-large breed dog and have heard a myriad of comments and stereotypes relating to my dog's breed. I have cats that are an integral part of my family and understand a family's need to have/want pets. I get it.

However, as a parent I personally would never enroll my child in a daycare that had a dog. I just wouldn't.

OP~ I think you need to set some boundaries for the safety of ALL the children (and parents) enrolled about whether or not your dog will or won't be intermingled with your daycare kids or if it will be kenneled or crated during business hours.

I also think you should NEVER use the argument that this dog has never been aggressive or any argument similar as she IS still a dog and dogs should NEVER be blindly trusted to not be aggressive or display similar behaviors....especially around children....who can be equally as unpredictable. kwim?

Good luck and I hope you don't lose a family because of this but either way, I would prepare for it.
I totally know what you're saying. I'm not saying that she isn't capable of aggression. They ARE dogs. But you could trip over my dog, startle him from a dead sleep, land on his head and he will slowly just move to the side or get up and walk away. My daughters done it MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY times. I am prepared if this family pulls. I have 2 families in line for an open infant position and honestly, if they pull both their kids (one is in a wheelchair) I an then put my gated up to the kitchen again and put the dogs in there if need be. They're only down to accommodate this family that has now made a complaint.. Honestly, it would be no sweat off my back. It just still bothers me for some reason because he made this accusation to his wife but when he was here he was playing fetch with her and was commenting on "what a good looking dog she was".
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daycare 07:41 AM 08-27-2013
Originally Posted by Brooksie:
Wow, I'm really sorry you've had those experiences. That's really unnatural. I also don't mean to be rude but with that track record (I totally understand your fear of dogs after those experiences) but its got to be a response to your body language and yes your fear. I've never known any one to be bit by so many dogs. That being said I tell everyone on the phone interview that I have dogs and if someone does not like dogs, is afraid of dogs, or allergic I automatically tell them this is not the FCC for them. My dog(s) are VERY well socialized and are given a lot of varying experiences to get them used to people, things and animals. The only time you have a vicious dog is because that's how they were trained or neglected. People that don't actively work with their dogs are asking for issues. I am not that person.
Yes, they smell my fear and they bite me. AND every dog that has bitten me was by a "family" dog that has NEVER bitten anyone else that the owners socialize with their own family and children of all ages.

I am so over the top afraid of dogs that if I know you have a dog at your house I won't even go to your house. Some of my friends respect my fear and will put their dog away while I am there, but if they are not willing to understand my fear, then I just won't go over.
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Play Care 07:42 AM 08-27-2013
Originally Posted by Brooksie:
Wow, I'm really sorry you've had those experiences. That's really unnatural. I also don't mean to be rude but with that track record (I totally understand your fear of dogs after those experiences) but its got to be a response to your body language and yes your fear. I've never known any one to be bit by so many dogs. That being said I tell everyone on the phone interview that I have dogs and if someone does not like dogs, is afraid of dogs, or allergic I automatically tell them this is not the FCC for them. My dog(s) are VERY well socialized and are given a lot of varying experiences to get them used to people, things and animals. The only time you have a vicious dog is because that's how they were trained or neglected. People that don't actively work with their dogs are asking for issues. I am not that person.
Unnatural?! Really?! And then blame the victim?! No wonder your parent seems as though they don't believe you when you say it didn't happen (or you didn't "see" it happen)

If you are so clear about dogs in your dc and this person signed on anyway, chances are good that they are a dog person too. So to essentially dismiss what they are saying doesn't bode well for anyone. Everyday you hear about a beloved family pet that, out of nowhere, bites. If you want dogs to have free range, fine. But then you need to be supervising (eyes on) at all times. No "I just turned my back for a minute!" or "I didn't see it."
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Willow 07:44 AM 08-27-2013
I'm with BC. Do what you're going to do. People will stay, go or never sign up with you in the first place and that will be their choice.


That said I foster and rescue. None of my families have access to my dogs or my fosters. Not because they're bad, but because I love them and other people are unpredictable. It's my job to protect my dogs from situations like you describe, as well as from false accusations that can leave your dogs lives hanging in the balance. I personally would never feel comfortable leaving my dogs open to that level of liability -or- my children with a provider who disagrees there is definite danger in it.

The rescues I am affiliated with (currently four, but have worked with dozens in the past) would NEVER foster or adopt one of their dogs into the situation you descibe. They know it would be far faaaar too dangerous for the dog and it would completely defeat the purpose of rescuing them if just one child pulled an ear too hard or one parent got a bug up their butt and tried to claim something happened even if it didn't.



I would absolutely be prepared for a visit from licensing and now maybe even animal control over this OP.
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Brooksie 07:51 AM 08-27-2013
Originally Posted by Play Care:
Unnatural?! Really?! And then blame the victim?! No wonder your parent seems as though they don't believe you when you say it didn't happen (or you didn't "see" it happen)

If you are so clear about dogs in your dc and this person signed on anyway, chances are good that they are a dog person too. So to essentially dismiss what they are saying doesn't bode well for anyone. Everyday you hear about a beloved family pet that, out of nowhere, bites. If you want dogs to have free range, fine. But then you need to be supervising (eyes on) at all times. No "I just turned my back for a minute!" or "I didn't see it."
Yes, unnatural. I've worked with dogs as a trainer and a groomer and I've never seen a magnet for dog bites. The only thing that make sense is your body language that may provoke an already unsettled dog. I also think dogs can be the victims of poor socialization or bad training. The dog was clearly at fault because he/she bit, but its not natural for someone to be bitten that many times. Its also not fair. I sympathize with daycare. That really sucks that she's had that experience and I feel terribly for her. I'm not saying she's WRONG or being bitten. That doesn't make sense. I'm just agreeing with what SHE said that its her fear that puts the dogs on edge.
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sharlan 07:57 AM 08-27-2013
I'm sorry, but if your dog growled at me (or I witnessed your dog growling at anybody else), my child would NOT be returning to your daycare. I would not provide notice either. I would be happy to let you take me to small claims court where I'm sure I would win.

Your boyfriend's "don't sweat it" attitude may cause you problems in regards to this dog.
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daycare 07:59 AM 08-27-2013
Originally Posted by Brooksie:
Yes, unnatural. I've worked with dogs as a trainer and a groomer and I've never seen a magnet for dog bites. The only thing that make sense is your body language that may provoke an already unsettled dog. I also think dogs can be the victims of poor socialization or bad training. The dog was clearly at fault because he/she bit, but its not natural for someone to be bitten that many times. Its also not fair. I sympathize with daycare. That really sucks that she's had that experience and I feel terribly for her. I'm not saying she's WRONG or being bitten. That doesn't make sense. I'm just agreeing with what SHE said that its her fear that puts the dogs on edge.
I get what you are saying, and I do agree. I know they bite me because they sense my intense fear of them and it unsettles them. That I don't doubt at all.

ALL that I am saying is that since YOU can't control how your children feel about the dogs and you can't control when your dog will bite, if they ever do, it's better to be safe than sorry.

If you are adamant about socializing the dog with the kids, then maybe you should just consider limiting the contact and amount of time that you have the dogs around the kids.

As I have been taught with everything in my life, NEVER SAY NEVER.....
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Willow 08:03 AM 08-27-2013
Originally Posted by Brooksie:
Yes, unnatural. I've worked with dogs as a trainer and a groomer and I've never seen a magnet for dog bites. The only thing that make sense is your body language that may provoke an already unsettled dog. I also think dogs can be the victims of poor socialization or bad training. The dog was clearly at fault because he/she bit, but its not natural for someone to be bitten that many times. Its also not fair. I sympathize with daycare. That really sucks that she's had that experience and I feel terribly for her. I'm not saying she's WRONG or being bitten. That doesn't make sense. I'm just agreeing with what SHE said that its her fear that puts the dogs on edge.

I find it odd that as a former trainer you would fault a dog for a bite......

All of the professionals I learned from and network with will say 99% of bites are the fault of the human involved (which is exactly why I am ADAMENT about protecting them from my potentially ignorant day are families). The 1% only being the result of a dog who has been punished throwing appeasing and warning behaviors so they no longer give them and/or the result of a medical issue where the aggression becomes completely unpredictable (thyroid, neurological etc.).

In either event the vast majority can absolutely be avoided if the people around any given dog understand dog behavior and respect it. Unfortunately, that is just not something small children, especially children who are not a part of a dogs immediate family unit, are capable of.
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Willow 08:05 AM 08-27-2013
Not trying to pick on you, I could talk dog "shop" all day long lol
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Unregistered 08:12 AM 08-27-2013
You can never predict a DOG will do at any given time! To put other peoples children safety at risk for the 1 time is not an option.
Growing up my father had a boss with the most gentlest of saint bernards around. We could ride him, climb on him, hug him, accidentaly fall on him, take the food from his mouth. We did it for years, we grew up with this dog.
One day, 1 hug is all it took and half my brothers face was GONE from ear to chin! My father and the owner were standing right there. Nothing different from any other day. Dog went back to being same sweet dog as soon as it happened as if nothing happened. SO NEVER SAY NEVER OR NOT MY DOGS!
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Brooksie 08:22 AM 08-27-2013
Originally Posted by Willow:
I find it odd that as a former trainer you would fault a dog for a bite......

All of the professionals I learned from and network with will say 99% of bites are the fault of the human involved (which is exactly why I am ADAMENT about protecting them from my potentially ignorant day are families). The 1% only being the result of a dog who has been punished throwing appeasing and warning behaviors so they no longer give them and/or the result of a medical issue where the aggression becomes completely unpredictable (thyroid, neurological etc.).

In either event the vast majority can absolutely be avoided if the people around any given dog understand dog behavior and respect it. Unfortunately, that is just not something small children, especially children who are not a part of a dogs immediate family unit, are capable of.
I could talk dogs all day with you too. What I'm trying to say is, Yes, the dog BIT. So technically it is the dogs action (is what I should have said, not fault) but again it was the body language and uneasiness/approach that provoked the dog to bite. I'm not blaming daycare or say she deserved it by an means. She obviously doesn't intend for this to happen and she can't help her fear. But unfortunately that seems to be the cause, considering how many times it has happened to her. That's the unnatural (unusual) part to it. I'm saddened for her that its happened so many times. That's incredibly unfortunate. I do think that dogs are generally the victims. They are what you make of them. The problem is not the dog its the owner. Sorry if we misunderstood each other for a second there.
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Familycare71 08:27 AM 08-27-2013
I have rescued dogs and have 5 of my own. My dogs are never allowed out free with my daycare kids. There are too many variables - dogs are animals. Kids are kids. I'm just not willing to put my dogs in a situation where it could cost them their life because I turned around for a moment.
And as far as a dog guaranteed not to bite: that is never the case. I had a springer who was amazing with my children and she suddenly got springer fever. She bit two of my own kids unprovoked in two separate instances and she didnt even know what happened! After consults with two vets we had to put her down- it was hard enough going through that but add a lawsuit to it and it would have been unbearable!
I love dogs (including the bully breed) but am not wiling to risk injury to a child or death to a dog because life carries so many variables!
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Blackcat31 08:29 AM 08-27-2013
Originally Posted by Brooksie:
I could talk dogs all day with you too. What I'm trying to say is, Yes, the dog BIT. So technically it is the dogs action (is what I should have said, not fault) but again it was the body language and uneasiness/approach that provoked the dog to bite. I'm not blaming daycare or say she deserved it by an means. She obviously doesn't intend for this to happen and she can't help her fear. But unfortunately that seems to be the cause, considering how many times it has happened to her. That's the unnatural (unusual) part to it. I'm saddened for her that its happened so many times. That's incredibly unfortunate. I do think that dogs are generally the victims. They are what you make of them. The problem is not the dog its the owner. Sorry if we misunderstood each other for a second there.
That is not true. An owner can be the BEST trainer in the world.

The owner can have hundreds of hours of education and/or experience and the dog could still bite or turn aggressive in the right circumstances.

I do NOT believe that has anything to do with the owner or how the dog was trained.

Dogs aren't always what you "make of them" as they too have natural instincts and tendancies......no matter how hard we try and take the "animal" out of them, they are still in fact, animals (= unpredictable)
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Familycare71 08:29 AM 08-27-2013
Originally Posted by Willow:
I find it odd that as a former trainer you would fault a dog for a bite......

All of the professionals I learned from and network with will say 99% of bites are the fault of the human involved (which is exactly why I am ADAMENT about protecting them from my potentially ignorant day are families). The 1% only being the result of a dog who has been punished throwing appeasing and warning behaviors so they no longer give them and/or the result of a medical issue where the aggression becomes completely unpredictable (thyroid, neurological etc.).

In either event the vast majority can absolutely be avoided if the people around any given dog understand dog behavior and respect it. Unfortunately, that is just not something small children, especially children who are not a part of a dogs immediate family unit, are capable of.
Yes!!! This is EXACTLY why my dogs aren't around daycare families!
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Brooksie 08:30 AM 08-27-2013
Ok so despite all the varied opinions and how I chose to treat my animals I DO agree this is a liability issue. My only problem now that I am asking for advice on is how to deal with it. This is my solution/problem:
I would like to be able to put the gates back up that section off the kitchen. Here I will turn into a dog sanctuary where they will still feel involve with the kids (open floor plan) yet safe from accusations and also tiny hands that aren't always so gentle. I do still want to allow the dogs in with the kids occasionally throughout the day and maybe during nap time where I can closely monitor them.

My problem with this is that the family (dcd) who has claimed that she growled (whether she did or not isn't the point, its still a dangerous accusation) has a child enrolled here in a wheel chair. When they signed up I had to take the gates down so I could get her through the doorways. I told them at interview that that would mean the dog would be out with the kids but he was very friendly, I just wouldn't be able to gate him off. This was an accommodation I made for THEM (and its been a terrible inconvenience bth trying to keep the kids from playing in the kitchen, although I manage it well). I'm really leaning to putting the gates back up, but I would have to do an immediate term for this child, since access to the back yard is through the kitchen and I wouldn't be able to take her out with us and cannot leave her inside while we go out.

My contract says that I need to give 2 weeks notice for term, but would like to put the gates up immediately to avoid any further accusations... So any ideas on THIS issue/idea?
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Blackcat31 08:35 AM 08-27-2013
Originally Posted by Brooksie:
Ok so despite all the varied opinions and how I chose to treat my animals I DO agree this is a liability issue. My only problem now that I am asking for advice on is how to deal with it. This is my solution/problem:
I would like to be able to put the gates back up that section off the kitchen. Here I will turn into a dog sanctuary where they will still feel involve with the kids (open floor plan) yet safe from accusations and also tiny hands that aren't always so gentle. I do still want to allow the dogs in with the kids occasionally throughout the day and maybe during nap time where I can closely monitor them.

My problem with this is that the family (dcd) who has claimed that she growled (whether she did or not isn't the point, its still a dangerous accusation) has a child enrolled here in a wheel chair. When they signed up I had to take the gates down so I could get her through the doorways. I told them at interview that that would mean the dog would be out with the kids but he was very friendly, I just wouldn't be able to gate him off. This was an accommodation I made for THEM (and its been a terrible inconvenience bth trying to keep the kids from playing in the kitchen, although I manage it well). I'm really leaning to putting the gates back up, but I would have to do an immediate term for this child, since access to the back yard is through the kitchen and I wouldn't be able to take her out with us and cannot leave her inside while we go out.

My contract says that I need to give 2 weeks notice for term, but would like to put the gates up immediately to avoid any further accusations... So any ideas on THIS issue/idea?
I am not sure I am understanding all of this.... so to clarify this in my mind:

You want to put your gates back up to prevent the dog from having access to the daycare kids?

But doing this will prevent DCG from being able to come in and out due to the wheelchair?

So you want to term the DCK that uses the chair because you will no longer be able to accommodate her needs?

This is the SAME family that made the accusations about the dog growling?

Am I getting this correctly?
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Familycare71 08:38 AM 08-27-2013
The gated off kitchen is ideal.
As far as the family goes, what I am hearing is the dogs cannot be there unless you term. If you are able/willing to term I would just be careful not to use the wheelchair access as a reason. I'm sure someone here has a way of wording it-

OT: so happy you rescued your pup and it is going so well. Sounds like she is blessed you found her!
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Willow 08:41 AM 08-27-2013
Originally Posted by Brooksie:
Ok so despite all the varied opinions and how I chose to treat my animals I DO agree this is a liability issue. My only problem now that I am asking for advice on is how to deal with it. This is my solution/problem:
I would like to be able to put the gates back up that section off the kitchen. Here I will turn into a dog sanctuary where they will still feel involve with the kids (open floor plan) yet safe from accusations and also tiny hands that aren't always so gentle. I do still want to allow the dogs in with the kids occasionally throughout the day and maybe during nap time where I can closely monitor them.

My problem with this is that the family (dcd) who has claimed that she growled (whether she did or not isn't the point, its still a dangerous accusation) has a child enrolled here in a wheel chair. When they signed up I had to take the gates down so I could get her through the doorways. I told them at interview that that would mean the dog would be out with the kids but he was very friendly, I just wouldn't be able to gate him off. This was an accommodation I made for THEM (and its been a terrible inconvenience bth trying to keep the kids from playing in the kitchen, although I manage it well). I'm really leaning to putting the gates back up, but I would have to do an immediate term for this child, since access to the back yard is through the kitchen and I wouldn't be able to take her out with us and cannot leave her inside while we go out.

My contract says that I need to give 2 weeks notice for term, but would like to put the gates up immediately to avoid any further accusations... So any ideas on THIS issue/idea?

Whether you remove the dogs from walking amongst the children to merely having access through a gate is moot. Barrier frustration and aggression is very real and highly likely from a young energetic dog. I know plenty of dogs that would attempt a finger amputation through a fence or crate but would never harm someone otherwise. The space becomes "the dogs space" and they will be far more inclined to be territorial and resource guard.


Your best option is to keep the dogs away from the children and families entirely. Gating to restrict the dogs will be a more dangerous option and restricting access to a disabled child will violate ADA laws.
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Brooksie 08:43 AM 08-27-2013
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
I am not sure I am understanding all of this.... so to clarify this in my mind:

You want to put your gates back up to prevent the dog from having access to the daycare kids? For parts of the day, yes. I agree that whether or not I don't think my dogs are aggressive, clearly one accusation can be a big liability, whether its true or not.

But doing this will prevent DCG from being able to come in and out due to the wheelchair? yes

So you want to term the DCK that uses the chair because you will no longer be able to accommodate her needs? Don't WANT to term, I love this girl and family but I don't know what else to do

This is the SAME family that made the accusations about the dog growling? Yes. And while I think that looks bad, its also trying to accommodate their concern while no longer being able to accommodate a different concern.

Am I getting this correctly?
Sounds like you got it right. I wish I could show you the layout of my house so you could see and come up with other ideas... I have the big metal, very strong walk through metal gates, spent a good bit of money on them and tehy are down in the basement not being used because the chair can't get past them.... I'm thinking I might just have to get those cheapo ones you can pick up and put back down... Idk. I really don't like those because I don't think they're high enough and if they are too high I can't get in and out of the kitchen easily (which is necessary all day long). Any better ideas?
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Brooksie 08:45 AM 08-27-2013
Originally Posted by Willow:
Whether you remove the dogs from walking amongst the children to merely having access through a gate is moot. Barrier frustration and aggression is very real and highly likely from a young energetic dog. I know plenty of dogs that would attempt a finger amputation through a fence or crate but would never harm someone otherwise. The space becomes "the dogs space" and they will be far more inclined to be territorial and resource guard.


Your best option is to keep the dogs away from the children and families entirely. Gating to restrict the dogs will be a more dangerous option and restricting access to a disabled child will violate ADA laws.
Well that's not possible so that too is a moot point. Guess no option is good enough.
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Willow 08:47 AM 08-27-2013
Originally Posted by Brooksie:
Well that's not possible so that too is a moot point. Guess no option is good enough.
Why is it not possible to restrict access?

I have four dogs, two cats and a small house. It's not difficult at all for me to keep everyone separated and safe
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Familycare71 08:49 AM 08-27-2013
Originally Posted by Brooksie:
Sounds like you got it right. I wish I could show you the layout of my house so you could see and come up with other ideas... I have the big metal, very strong walk through metal gates, spent a good bit of money on them and tehy are down in the basement not being used because the chair can't get past them.... I'm thinking I might just have to get those cheapo ones you can pick up and put back down... Idk. I really don't like those because I don't think they're high enough and if they are too high I can't get in and out of the kitchen easily (which is necessary all day long). Any better ideas?
Do you have a bedroom or unused room the dogs can hang out in for the day? Beds, toys, water, etc... And on nice days they can hang out in the yard while dck are inside?
My dogs are separated by a door but they do get let outside when we are inside if it is nice out.
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Lyss 08:50 AM 08-27-2013
Personally my dog is kept separate 90% of the time for her safety. My dog is family as well, we don't crate her or leave her outside. She's a member of this family but by putting her in a situation where the children are all around her and in her space I feel like I'm creating a unsafe environment for her. Children are unpredictable, handsy, and loud and even we have days where we feel like we've had enough or need a break but we can voice our feelings or step away and regroup. Dogs don't handle situations like that and I don't want to create an environment where my dog may feel overwhelmed. She's never bit or hurt anyone and is great with the kids when she does get near them but it's not often.

I wouldn't argue or get into it with the family that says he growled, I had friend tell me that my dog "put her teeth on" him when he was playing with her and he seriously thought it was an act of aggression when I knew she just over bit the small toy he was playing tug a war with sometimes people interpret things differently, especially non-dog people I'd just say I'm sorry that you felt that happened, here's the options we have (2 weeks notice, separate, don't separate... whatever you plan to do) and leave it at that.

Just an FYI (& I'm not saying I agree with this), I worked in property management and over 1/2 of the national insurance companies we worked with considered American Bulldogs an aggressive dog breed and had them on their "blacklist."
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Brooksie 08:53 AM 08-27-2013
Originally Posted by Familycare71:
Do you have a bedroom or unused room the dogs can hang out in for the day? Beds, toys, water, etc... And on nice days they can hang out in the yard while dck are inside?
My dogs are separated by a door but they do get let outside when we are inside if it is nice out.
No not really. Every time I had to let them out I would then have to go upstairs, leaving the kids unattended to bring them downstairs and outside to go potty. I think that would be even more dangerous and a violation of licensing, especially considering how often I let them out. All other rooms of the house that aren't used for child care are upstairs on the second or third floor. Kitchen is the only option.
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crazydaycarelady 08:55 AM 08-27-2013
I have not had time to read all of the responses but I would just keep the dogs separate from the kids during dc hours.

I am a huge dog advocate also and foster a lot of dogs and puppies. I had a foster "cattle" dog that also looked pit bullish. He was a real sweatheart but I had a dad that went off the deep end. In that case I gave the foster back to the rescue.

If it had been my pet I would have jut kept them seperate. I have 2 Scottish terriers and a beagle and I keep them separate during dchours. My male Scottish terrier bit a dcgirl one day on the face. She tripped and fell on top of him. Stuff happens. Better safe than sorry is my motto after that.
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Familycare71 08:59 AM 08-27-2013
Originally Posted by Brooksie:
No not really. Every time I had to let them out I would then have to go upstairs, leaving the kids unattended to bring them downstairs and outside to go potty. I think that would be even more dangerous and a violation of licensing, especially considering how often I let them out. All other rooms of the house that aren't used for child care are upstairs on the second or third floor. Kitchen is the only option.
My dogs are on my lower level and the dck walk down with me and stand to the side while I let the dogs out quickly. They get excited to see the parade of dogs walk by them lol .
My only sugg would be to make it part of the routine-
Other than that I'm stuck
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Laurel 09:01 AM 08-27-2013
Our licensing doesn't allow pets to be around daycare children. They must be kept separately during daycare hours.

I have never had a dog nor wanted one so it is not an issue here.

My daycare liability insurance also excludes coverage if one has certain breeds of dogs.

Laurel
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Brooksie 09:02 AM 08-27-2013
Originally Posted by Lyss:
Personally my dog is kept separate 90% of the time for her safety. My dog is family as well, we don't crate her or leave her outside. She's a member of this family but by putting her in a situation where the children are all around her and in her space I feel like I'm creating a unsafe environment for her. Children are unpredictable, handsy, and loud and even we have days where we feel like we've had enough or need a break but we can voice our feelings or step away and regroup. Dogs don't handle situations like that and I don't want to create an environment where my dog may feel overwhelmed. She's never bit or hurt anyone and is great with the kids when she does get near them but it's not often.

I wouldn't argue or get into it with the family that says he growled, I had friend tell me that my dog "put her teeth on" him when he was playing with her and he seriously thought it was an act of aggression when I knew she just over bit the small toy he was playing tug a war with sometimes people interpret things differently, especially non-dog people I'd just say I'm sorry that you felt that happened, here's the options we have (2 weeks notice, separate, don't separate... whatever you plan to do) and leave it at that.

Just an FYI (& I'm not saying I agree with this), I worked in property management and over 1/2 of the national insurance companies we worked with considered American Bulldogs an aggressive dog breed and had them on their "blacklist."
I agree with you here. I think I'm going to start separating them for every ones safety. And thanks for the heads up about the insurance, although I remember looking the blacklisted breeds up when I was shopping for insurance and while pit bulls ARE on the list, I never saw American Bulldogs on their. I have a call in with my insurance agent any way because I have to add her to our policy. But I'm sure different companies have different lists.
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Brooksie 09:13 AM 08-27-2013
Originally Posted by Laurel:
Our licensing doesn't allow pets to be around daycare children. They must be kept separately during daycare hours.

I have never had a dog nor wanted one so it is not an issue here.

My daycare liability insurance also excludes coverage if one has certain breeds of dogs.

Laurel
My licensing only restricts my Boa Constrictor to be separated (obviously lol). Last I had a surprise inspection my supervisor my dog greeted her at the door and she kept commenting on what a good sweet boy he was even after he greeted her with a very loud 'hello'. She knows and allows him to be out with the kids, its only required that I have insurance.
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AnneCordelia 09:35 AM 08-27-2013
Originally Posted by Brooksie:
I agree with you here. I think I'm going to start separating them for every ones safety. And thanks for the heads up about the insurance, although I remember looking the blacklisted breeds up when I was shopping for insurance and while pit bulls ARE on the list, I never saw American Bulldogs on their. I have a call in with my insurance agent any way because I have to add her to our policy. But I'm sure different companies have different lists.
It is semantics. For insurance reasons most companies consider American bulldogs to be pitbulls. Pitbulls arent a breed but are a group of breeds and mixes. You might not agree with this distinguishment but your insurance won't cover you in case of a bite. Best to call and ask if your dog fits the bill.
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Meeko 09:40 AM 08-27-2013
Everyone seems to be concerned about the "aggression" of the dogs.

I think you should be more worried about the dad. Seems to me he fishing for something to "nail" you on...and that kind of aggression is far more dangerous.
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Brooksie 09:44 AM 08-27-2013
Originally Posted by Meeko:
Everyone seems to be concerned about the "aggression" of the dogs.

I think you should be more worried about the dad. Seems to me he fishing for something to "nail" you on...and that kind of aggression is far more dangerous.
THIS was what bothered my so much. THIS why I posted. And this is also why I am going to start gating the dogs in the kitchen. I still don't have concern about their behavior but I AM concerned about actions he may take on his accusation. If the dog looked so vicious why did he reach down and take the ball out of her mouth and play fetch with her? Why not bring it up to me in person? I still think he's full of it but no matter, I'm going to take action to further protect myself and my dogs from someone like that.
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Maria2013 09:45 AM 08-27-2013
Originally Posted by blandino:
Our dogs go in the fenced portion while the kids go out to play.
.
I have it set up exactly the opposite, I fenced in the kids and left the dogs free in the rest of the yard
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Brooksie 09:46 AM 08-27-2013
Originally Posted by Maria2013:
I have it set up exactly the opposite, I fenced in the kids and left the dogs free in the rest of the yard
Should have thought of that!!!
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daycarediva 09:57 AM 08-27-2013
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
This is a common issue for providers who have or get a dog.

Some families will be okay with it and some won't. Nothing wrong with either choice.

IMHO, it really doesn't matter what you did or didn't witness at pick up. What matters is if the parents feel comfortable leaving their child in your care while your dog is present. If they aren't ok with it, that is their choice.

Just like it was YOUR choice to get a dog....kwim?

I have an X-large breed dog and have heard a myriad of comments and stereotypes relating to my dog's breed. I have cats that are an integral part of my family and understand a family's need to have/want pets. I get it.

However, as a parent I personally would never enroll my child in a daycare that had a dog. I just wouldn't.

OP~ I think you need to set some boundaries for the safety of ALL the children (and parents) enrolled about whether or not your dog will or won't be intermingled with your daycare kids or if it will be kenneled or crated during business hours.

I also think you should NEVER use the argument that this dog has never been aggressive or any argument similar as she IS still a dog and dogs should NEVER be blindly trusted to not be aggressive or display similar behaviors....especially around children....who can be equally as unpredictable. kwim?

Good luck and I hope you don't lose a family because of this but either way, I would prepare for it.
This, exactly.

Originally Posted by Meeko:
Everyone seems to be concerned about the "aggression" of the dogs.

I think you should be more worried about the dad. Seems to me he fishing for something to "nail" you on...and that kind of aggression is far more dangerous.
I would call my licensar and tell them about the new addition and mention dcd's attitude/response since he MAY call anyway. C-Y-A.

If you have insurance, and you are getting clients I would just continue to do what you are doing. It works for you, it works for your families, I wouldn't be making major adjustments to my life/home/routine to suit ONE family. Some may leave, some may not enroll, but to each his own, kwim? As long as you are aware of the liability, there isn't much MORE you CAN do.

My dd was attacked by a pitbull, and I am crazy fearful of the breed or any dog that resembles the breed now. Can't help it, one almost killed my baby.
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Brooksie 10:04 AM 08-27-2013
Originally Posted by daycarediva:
This, exactly.



I would call my licensar and tell them about the new addition and mention dcd's attitude/response since he MAY call anyway. C-Y-A.

If you have insurance, and you are getting clients I would just continue to do what you are doing. It works for you, it works for your families, I wouldn't be making major adjustments to my life/home/routine to suit ONE family. Some may leave, some may not enroll, but to each his own, kwim? As long as you are aware of the liability, there isn't much MORE you CAN do.

My dd was attacked by a pitbull, and I am crazy fearful of the breed or any dog that resembles the breed now. Can't help it, one almost killed my baby.
OMG that's so sad I'm sorry you guys had that experience. Also glad she's ok now.
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Leanna 10:14 AM 08-27-2013
I see both sides here.

Personally I am terrified of dogs. I've been bitten a couple of times and my DS was bitten just walking down the street with a friend.

My sister, however, is very vocal about breed discrimination and has two pit bulls. Both of her dogs are big babies & are scared of their own shadows. Neither would ever hurt a fly.

I don't have any dogs, but if I did I would keep them very separate from the DCK's. First, because you just never know. Dogs have such keen instincts & behaviors that can cause even the sweetest dog to act aggressive on occasion.
Also, people have a lot of baggage around dogs that you may never know. One bad experience with a dog can color your opinion and emotions forever and I'd hate for you to loose clients just because the dogs barking or being in proximity scares them or makes them nervous.
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Blackcat31 10:24 AM 08-27-2013
Brooksie~

I think you simply need to sit down and have a frank, open honest conversation with this family.

Talk to them and figure out what works for BOTH of you.

No matter what happens, you and the family are the ones who need to live with the choices you each make.

Talk with them about their concerns, the lengths you are and aren't willing to go in order to reassure them as well as your concerns too and if they can't live with what you are willing to do, they can always choose to find alternate child care.

That really is all there is too it.

What any of us say as far as opinions go doesn't really matter.

You need to work this out with the family in question.

Keep us posted.
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Familycare71 10:26 AM 08-27-2013
Originally Posted by Brooksie:
THIS was what bothered my so much. THIS why I posted. And this is also why I am going to start gating the dogs in the kitchen. I still don't have concern about their behavior but I AM concerned about actions he may take on his accusation. If the dog looked so vicious why did he reach down and take the ball out of her mouth and play fetch with her? Why not bring it up to me in person? I still think he's full of it but no matter, I'm going to take action to further protect myself and my dogs from someone like that.
Yes- the above is why I would keep your dogs separate- to protect them and you!
It's all about liability-
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Scout 11:27 AM 08-27-2013
A dog is a dog and I do not even let my kids around my parent's dogs without supervision. My mom's dog was the sweetest Irish Setter but, still my mom or I would not let the kids "bother" her in any way. Because she was a dog and a dog has natural instincts to protect itself by biting, which is it's only line of defense. I would not want my child around a dog in a dc situation to begin with because providers get busy and there is no way you can constantly be watching the dog and everything else going on at once. Little kids will be kids and will tease and taunt. I don't mean they do this on purpose, most times they don't know any better. My point is-that dog doesn't know any better either. When that dog feels threatened by that pull of the tail or ear you may not be able to stop it in time and will be in for a whole set of stresses you don't want! Protect everyone and find a solution that works for you. You would be more sorry if the unthinkable happened and you were faced with the decision AFTER the dog hurt a child. I got bit by a German Shepard and I was about the 5th kid to cross his path. I did nothing different than the others, he just decided to lunge at my face and I ended up with 8 stiches above my eye-He went for my face! I would not want this to happen to you. Discretion is always the best policy, imo. Good luck!!
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EntropyControlSpecialist 11:43 AM 08-27-2013
Originally Posted by NeedaVaca:
I would keep your dogs away from the kids at all times. It only takes one time...you may say it's impossible now but you never know. One time is all it will take for you to lose all of your kids and I wouldn't want to take that risk.
I agree.
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EntropyControlSpecialist 11:48 AM 08-27-2013
Originally Posted by Leigh:
NOTHING is impossible, and ANY dog of ANY breed could bite a child. Nearly all dog bites in children are provoked by the child (often inadvertently). My dogs have no contact with my daycare kids (other than walking past them on their way outdoors). They're great with kids, but I would not be able to monitor every kid's interaction with each dog, and unless there is DIRECT supervision, I don't feel preschoolers are safe around any dog.

It's entirely possible that what the father claimed is true. Just like with human children, dogs go through phases of fear, testing boundaries, etc. A dog in a new home, especially, may have been a little spooked by a large stranger approaching.

Breed doesn't matter here at all. I would separate the kids and dogs.
I agree.

I have a small weiner dog/terrier mix who has never bitten anyone but he is NEVER around the children. Ever.
I, too, consider my dog a part of my family and love him dearly.
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EntropyControlSpecialist 11:53 AM 08-27-2013
Originally Posted by Meeko:
Everyone seems to be concerned about the "aggression" of the dogs.

I think you should be more worried about the dad. Seems to me he fishing for something to "nail" you on...and that kind of aggression is far more dangerous.
The fact that he lied would need to be addressed immediately and I actually would consider terming them. Ain't nobody got time for dat.
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Cradle2crayons 12:58 PM 08-27-2013
Our two small dogs stay out with the daycare kids but with that said, interaction ismonitored closely. As a matter of fact, I don't even allow the dck to mess with them at all. Of course the dogs really want to go give them loves but I don't allow it.

Our cats free range between inside and outside and they daycare kids aren't allowed to mess with them either.
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MarinaVanessa 01:37 PM 08-27-2013
If I were in this position I would talk to DCD directly, whether in person (preferred) or on the phone. I would start the conversation, say what I needed to say and then give him the floor to respond. It would go something along the lines of ...

"Hi Tim. Susan mentioned something to me about how the new puppy growled and bared his teeth at you when you came to pick up Suzie the other day and I have to say that I'm a little confused so I wanted to talk to you and address it. When you came by I kept an eye on him and I did not see any of that behavior at all, in fact he was very friendly. I'm wondering if you are hesitant to the type of dog he is because he looks like he is a pit bull? Let me assure you that he is not, he is an American bulldog/Dalmatian mix. Or maybe you are concerned simply because we got a new dog? In either case I wanted to talk to you about it because of our partnership. I was thinking about a solution here and I thinking that maybe you can come a few more times to get to know our puppy better and I'll give you more background information about him from the rescue and his previous foster home to see if we can settle some of your fears. Really the only other workable option I have is to put the gates back up in the daycare space however since I removed them in order to create a wheelchair accessible space for little Suzie putting them back up will only block her access so that is not really an option. I was a little caught off guard since I didn't expect this reaction from anyone and none of the other families have a problem with the new puppy so I'm really hoping that we can think of a solution that we are both happy with. What are you thinking? What will make you happy?" ....

From there let him respond to get a feel for whether or not he was nervous about the new puppy because of his breed or just general fear period or whether maybe he really does have legitimate concerns.

One thing that I would keep in mind would be that when the original contract was signed there was only one dog that they got to meet before signing, now there is a different dog added which might have changed the original idea of what DCD thought he was getting. Another thought for me would be that this is my home and I would not let a client's opinion of something that I did change my decision. If I really wanted to get a new dog and I had a client that wasn't okay with the idea (and separating the dogs from the children wasn't an option) then they'd have one of two choices 1) live with it OR 2) move on.
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daycare 02:37 PM 08-27-2013
I really would not put too much effort into it.

I would say to the DCD or DCM and tell them..

I just wanted to let you know that even though I highly doubt one of my dogs would ever harm a fly, I have decided to keep them separated from the kids. Although I have never seen the (new dog) growl or show her teeth to anyone, I wanted to make sure that I addressed your concerns.

At this point you are just making a lot of assumptions and I would just drop it and not put too much more thought or efforts into it.
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MamaBear 04:00 PM 08-27-2013
We have two dogs... one small 10 lb dog and one large 150 lbs dog. They are well socialized & super sweet dogs ~ but I still choose to keep them away from the kids during daycare hours. My daycare parents all knew when they signed up that we had the dogs and were cool with it. If they werent cool with it then thats too bad for them and I wouldnt take them into my daycare.

My dogs have a separate area of the backyard and also stay in the garage thats locked away during daycare hours. I trust my dogs, but you really just never know. I'd rather not have to worry about what could possibly happen... so I just prevent it from being a possibility. Also prevents a daycare parent or child from making up lies about something that my dogs didn't do.
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Brooksie 04:57 PM 08-27-2013
Originally Posted by MarinaVanessa:
If I were in this position I would talk to DCD directly, whether in person (preferred) or on the phone. I would start the conversation, say what I needed to say and then give him the floor to respond. It would go something along the lines of ...

"Hi Tim. Susan mentioned something to me about how the new puppy growled and bared his teeth at you when you came to pick up Suzie the other day and I have to say that I'm a little confused so I wanted to talk to you and address it. When you came by I kept an eye on him and I did not see any of that behavior at all, in fact he was very friendly. I'm wondering if you are hesitant to the type of dog he is because he looks like he is a pit bull? Let me assure you that he is not, he is an American bulldog/Dalmatian mix. Or maybe you are concerned simply because we got a new dog? In either case I wanted to talk to you about it because of our partnership. I was thinking about a solution here and I thinking that maybe you can come a few more times to get to know our puppy better and I'll give you more background information about him from the rescue and his previous foster home to see if we can settle some of your fears. Really the only other workable option I have is to put the gates back up in the daycare space however since I removed them in order to create a wheelchair accessible space for little Suzie putting them back up will only block her access so that is not really an option. I was a little caught off guard since I didn't expect this reaction from anyone and none of the other families have a problem with the new puppy so I'm really hoping that we can think of a solution that we are both happy with. What are you thinking? What will make you happy?" ....

From there let him respond to get a feel for whether or not he was nervous about the new puppy because of his breed or just general fear period or whether maybe he really does have legitimate concerns.

One thing that I would keep in mind would be that when the original contract was signed there was only one dog that they got to meet before signing, now there is a different dog added which might have changed the original idea of what DCD thought he was getting. Another thought for me would be that this is my home and I would not let a client's opinion of something that I did change my decision. If I really wanted to get a new dog and I had a client that wasn't okay with the idea (and separating the dogs from the children wasn't an option) then they'd have one of two choices 1) live with it OR 2) move on.
Well put. They definitely have the option to leave if they want but after talking with DCM today that's not an option for her. I told her after DCDs statement and just the unknown of a new dog lumped in with a few other concerns we have decided to try gating off the kitchen and keeping the dogs in there part of the day. I did mention that that will not be all day long and the dogs will still be out during nap and outside play times. I did say this was something we were TRYING and hopefully it will work out. Also discussed the type of gates we will be getting so that we will still be able to have wheel chair access when needed. She seemed fine with all this and didn't express any concern over the new addition during pick up. She also noted that her son (who's very nervous about everything) has really started to warm up to the dog and didn't fuss about her being near him and I mentioned that he was throwing the balls for both the dogs when we were outside earlier (he's got quite an arm for a 14 mo old).

Today she also discussed with me keeping her DCG here (special needs) throughout the school year instead of going to school, and maybe doing a home school program/Home hospital daycare program for her and having her therapy here and creating an IEP. (shes has severe CP and is functioning on a 2-3 mo level). So I know they aren't planning on going anywhere. DCM said she really wanted to figure out how to keep her with me because DCG likes it here and she was at peace with me taking care of her, which is something she hasn't found yet. So I almost teared up. I'm really glad that I am able to make her feel that way and provide that kind of care and love, especially for such a special girl.
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Familycare71 07:32 PM 08-27-2013
Originally Posted by Brooksie:
Well put. They definitely have the option to leave if they want but after talking with DCM today that's not an option for her. I told her after DCDs statement and just the unknown of a new dog lumped in with a few other concerns we have decided to try gating off the kitchen and keeping the dogs in there part of the day. I did mention that that will not be all day long and the dogs will still be out during nap and outside play times. I did say this was something we were TRYING and hopefully it will work out. Also discussed the type of gates we will be getting so that we will still be able to have wheel chair access when needed. She seemed fine with all this and didn't express any concern over the new addition during pick up. She also noted that her son (who's very nervous about everything) has really started to warm up to the dog and didn't fuss about her being near him and I mentioned that he was throwing the balls for both the dogs when we were outside earlier (he's got quite an arm for a 14 mo old).

Today she also discussed with me keeping her DCG here (special needs) throughout the school year instead of going to school, and maybe doing a home school program/Home hospital daycare program for her and having her therapy here and creating an IEP. (shes has severe CP and is functioning on a 2-3 mo level). So I know they aren't planning on going anywhere. DCM said she really wanted to figure out how to keep her with me because DCG likes it here and she was at peace with me taking care of her, which is something she hasn't found yet. So I almost teared up. I'm really glad that I am able to make her feel that way and provide that kind of care and love, especially for such a special girl.
Awesome!!! . So glad you talked with her and things went well. Dcg is Blessed to have you!!
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MarinaVanessa 11:34 PM 08-27-2013
Originally Posted by Brooksie:
Well put. They definitely have the option to leave if they want but after talking with DCM today that's not an option for her. I told her after DCDs statement and just the unknown of a new dog lumped in with a few other concerns we have decided to try gating off the kitchen and keeping the dogs in there part of the day. I did mention that that will not be all day long and the dogs will still be out during nap and outside play times. I did say this was something we were TRYING and hopefully it will work out. Also discussed the type of gates we will be getting so that we will still be able to have wheel chair access when needed. She seemed fine with all this and didn't express any concern over the new addition during pick up. She also noted that her son (who's very nervous about everything) has really started to warm up to the dog and didn't fuss about her being near him and I mentioned that he was throwing the balls for both the dogs when we were outside earlier (he's got quite an arm for a 14 mo old).

Today she also discussed with me keeping her DCG here (special needs) throughout the school year instead of going to school, and maybe doing a home school program/Home hospital daycare program for her and having her therapy here and creating an IEP. (shes has severe CP and is functioning on a 2-3 mo level). So I know they aren't planning on going anywhere. DCM said she really wanted to figure out how to keep her with me because DCG likes it here and she was at peace with me taking care of her, which is something she hasn't found yet. So I almost teared up. I'm really glad that I am able to make her feel that way and provide that kind of care and love, especially for such a special girl.
Sounds like everything is working out great for you. I'm so glad!! . I hate to be the rain on someone's parade but I personally would want to speak directly to DCD anyway just make sure that the decision that DCM is telling you was a decision that they BOTH made ... not just DCM pleading with DCD or telling him to leave it alone. I've had good clients leave because a grandma wasn't okay with the idea of daycare for her precious grand-daughter so maybe that's why I would be leery BUT if you feel that everything is alright and that really isn't an issue anymore then congrats!!
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Brooksie 08:22 AM 08-28-2013
The dogs are doing very well in there new sanctuary! There was a little whining at first and our new girl Ireland jumped up on the gate a few times but once they realized we were still close by and could see us (a few treats didn't hurt either) they settled down and seemed to enjoy the space. The kids kept checking on them and wanted to get in with them and after half of the kids went down for naps I let the dogs out for a bit. Now they're settled down in the playroom while the kids are on their cots/pnps. I think this will work out nicely. thanks everyone for their help!
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Brooksie 08:23 AM 08-28-2013
Originally Posted by Familycare71:
Awesome!!! . So glad you talked with her and things went well. Dcg is Blessed to have you!!
Aww thank you! I feel blessed to have her so we are even
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Lyss 08:40 AM 08-28-2013
Originally Posted by Brooksie:
The dogs are doing very well in there new sanctuary! There was a little whining at first and our new girl Ireland jumped up on the gate a few times but once they realized we were still close by and could see us (a few treats didn't hurt either) they settled down and seemed to enjoy the space. The kids kept checking on them and wanted to get in with them and after half of the kids went down for naps I let the dogs out for a bit. Now they're settled down in the playroom while the kids are on their cots/pnps. I think this will work out nicely. thanks everyone for their help!
Glad it all worked out!
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Familycare71 08:46 AM 08-28-2013
Originally Posted by Brooksie:
The dogs are doing very well in there new sanctuary! There was a little whining at first and our new girl Ireland jumped up on the gate a few times but once they realized we were still close by and could see us (a few treats didn't hurt either) they settled down and seemed to enjoy the space. The kids kept checking on them and wanted to get in with them and after half of the kids went down for naps I let the dogs out for a bit. Now they're settled down in the playroom while the kids are on their cots/pnps. I think this will work out nicely. thanks everyone for their help!
Looks perfect!!! . Sounds like they can have the best of both worlds! Interaction but not having to put up with young kids all day. So glad it worked!
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MotherNature 08:53 AM 08-28-2013
I'm still floored that Blandino had a client who intentionally antagonized dogs that he was a complete stranger to. That's some gall & some balls to do that. I'd have been furious.
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Tags:pets in daycare
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