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Daycare Center and Family Home Forum>How Many Time Outs Is Too Many?
MG&Lsmom 09:44 AM 04-04-2011
I'm sure this is going to start a heated debate, so please let's keep this civil.

How many time outs in one day or one week are too many? At what point to do you do put them on probation or even start thinking about termination?

I've talked about my openly defiant dcg before and I'm just not comfortable with the amount of time outs or disciplinary actions I have to take every day she's here. I had planned on giving a letter on Friday stating that she was going on probation, but she was really good and I decided to give it one more week. Big mistake.
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daycare 09:48 AM 04-04-2011
I had this same exact issue and I finally decided that I would not do a time out, that I would just do seperation.

The child was seperated from the group, but was still allowed to play with a few toys that I gave them. They did not get to participate in class, art, dancing, or ect. They had to play by themself.

I also talked to the parents about it in detail and we had to draw up a contract that if behavior did not improve within 14 days, then out they went.

Things have gotten better, and the seperation from the group works ok...
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littlemissmuffet 09:57 AM 04-04-2011
Hmmm. This really depends. There are days/weeks when my most well-behaved kids are absolute terrors... and spend a good portion of their day on time-outs...
I wouldn't put on probation or term because I know the child doesn't usually misbehave and that something is usually going on to cause the disrupt in behaviour. Communication and strict "on the same page" tactics with the parents usually get everything back on track.

On the other hand, I have had children who have behavioural problems from the beginning - if I can't get them under control with the help of parents within a two week period, out the door they go.
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cheerfuldom 09:58 AM 04-04-2011
Everyone has a different level of tolerance but if you are doing consistent consequence with no progress over a fair amount of time, then I would terminate. One good day is hardly progress if this is an ongoing issue. I also have done probationary periods (of two weeks) and then terminated. Normally nothing changes but it gives me the confidence in knowing that I have addressed issues with the parent as best as possible and have done what I could on my end to make it work. I don't separate kids for long periods of time. It is too much work for me. If the kid can't be a part of our day to day routine, the parent needs to find somewhere else.
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MG&Lsmom 10:15 AM 04-04-2011
I should mention that she only comes 2 days a week on a rotating schedule: M/T then M/F. She's been here a month and is just starting to show some minor improvements in her behavior. I feel she would do better quicker at a center or with a one-one, but that with more consistency here should 'could' get better. I've done time outs-or breaks as I call them-and separation. Neither work terribly well since she's not learning from the experience.

DCPs and I are on the same page that she has to start behaving or she won't be coming here, but we have different approaches. I'm more of a calm but firm approach. They yell, stand in the corner, take things away, and threatening to spank. She responds to neither approach.
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daycare 10:18 AM 04-04-2011
Originally Posted by MG&Lsmom:
I should mention that she only comes 2 days a week on a rotating schedule: M/T then M/F. She's been here a month and is just starting to show some minor improvements in her behavior. I feel she would do better quicker at a center or with a one-one, but that with more consistency here should 'could' get better. I've done time outs-or breaks as I call them-and separation. Neither work terribly well since she's not learning from the experience.

DCPs and I are on the same page that she has to start behaving or she won't be coming here, but we have different approaches. I'm more of a calm but firm approach. They yell, stand in the corner, take things away, and threatening to spank. She responds to neither approach.
This is why I dont do any less than 3 days a week or drop in care anymore. The less time that they are with you at DC the harder it is for them to adapt to the rules, structure and the group of kids. I would tell the parents that they need to add and pay for a 3rd day, that it's just too hard to get her acclimated to the DC with an inconsistent schedule.....
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MG&Lsmom 10:33 AM 04-04-2011
Originally Posted by daycare:
This is why I dont do any less than 3 days a week or drop in care anymore. The less time that they are with you at DC the harder it is for them to adapt to the rules, structure and the group of kids. I would tell the parents that they need to add and pay for a 3rd day, that it's just too hard to get her acclimated to the DC with an inconsistent schedule.....
That is exactly what I was going to present to them. They really should be paying for all 3 days anyway (M,T,F) for me to hold those days for them. I think both Mom and Dad really need a break so that's how I'm going to present it to them. Good for both of them
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MsMe 10:35 AM 04-04-2011
Originally Posted by daycare:
This is why I dont do any less than 3 days a week or drop in care anymore. The less time that they are with you at DC the harder it is for them to adapt to the rules, structure and the group of kids. I would tell the parents that they need to add and pay for a 3rd day, that it's just too hard to get her acclimated to the DC with an inconsistent schedule.....
I agree. I do not allow less then three days. Some of it may be the child but I bet a big part of it is that she is only there two days.
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Lilbutterflie 10:47 AM 04-04-2011
I definitely think that she should be there at least 3 days per week as the pp's have stated.

Even still, it may or may not work. I think I would do probation and making them switch to 3 days.

I have a dcb that I am on the fence with. He is full time. He is a notorious dangerous climber, though he goes in & out of climbing phases. Mostly though; he just does not listen to rules. There are days he has had 2-3 timeouts per day for a whole week straight. I've started to give him more one on one attention since I suspect his problem is his competition with two siblings; and that seems to be helping. Still there are some days he is going to do what he wants and doesn't care what the consequences are at all. I just posted about him; I just found boogers all over the wall next to his nap mat.
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ninosqueridos 02:19 PM 04-04-2011
I had one who was always in time out, and ended up spending the day with more miserable times than happy times. I knew that without the parents' cooperation with behavior improvement, the relationship was going to end. And it did when I terminated. Not an easy decision, but I know that I don't have the key to all children.
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MG&Lsmom 03:16 PM 04-04-2011
I told DCM about her most serious offense today (purposefully waking 2 other kids because I would not feed her immediately instead of getting them out of the car). DCM was not nearly as upset as I would have liked and kinda brushed it off. I told her that I spoke to dcg about her behaviors and if she continued to behave like this she would not be able to come here. DCM asked if it was a threat to dcg or was this a warning to the dcps. I told her that I have been trying to figure out how to get her adjust and that the thought had crossed my mind that maybe I couldn't help her. I told her that she's here too inconsistently and that I'm not sure if she'll ever understand that there are boundaries and rules here. I'm not at the point of terminating, but I'm uncomfortable with the amount of time she's spending in time out for serious behaviors. We had already spoken in the morning about how not being able to follow simple rules leads to not following more important rules (like not running into the road when we're outside). It's total chaos when this family arrives or leaves so it was not a very productive conversation. I'm not sure if they'll leave on their own since they have too few daycare options available. Not a lot of places here do SA and toddlers and allow for rotating schedules.
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nannyde 03:17 PM 04-04-2011
Two days a week isn't enough time for the child to go native into your routine. Can you ask them to put her in full time for a few months so she can get used to your ways?

I rarely ever use time out (maybe once every year or two) because it doesn't work but I would NEVER consider keeping a kid who was misbehaving to the point where they were in and out it all day. I can't imagine how upsetting it would be to my other kids.
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Crystal 03:22 PM 04-04-2011
Originally Posted by MG&Lsmom:
I told DCM about her most serious offense today (purposefully waking 2 other kids because I would not feed her immediately instead of getting them out of the car). DCM was not nearly as upset as I would have liked and kinda brushed it off.
time out doesn't work. too many timeouts is even worse, as it is counterproductive.

not sure I understand your above post......they were sleeping in the car and she was waiting to eat? not sure if that's what you're saying or not?
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SilverSabre25 03:25 PM 04-04-2011
Originally Posted by Crystal:
time out doesn't work. too many timeouts is even worse, as it is counterproductive.

not sure I understand your above post......they were sleeping in the car and she was waiting to eat? not sure if that's what you're saying or not?
I read it as, there were two kids sleeping in the car. dcg wanted to eat, but MG&Lsmom was getting the two sleeping kids out of the car first.
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MG&Lsmom 03:30 PM 04-04-2011
Originally Posted by nannyde:
Two days a week isn't enough time for the child to go native into your routine. Can you ask them to put her in full time for a few months so she can get used to your ways?

I rarely ever use time out (maybe once every year or two) because it doesn't work but I would NEVER consider keeping a kid who was misbehaving to the point where they were in and out it all day. I can't imagine how upsetting it would be to my other kids.
I'm pretty sure that financially that's not possible, and I'm not willing to bend my rates too much to take on the stress it will be to get her adjusted.

I only use time-outs as a last resort, when redirection and modeling the correct behavior don't work or a behavior is unsafe. That's why I call them breaks. "You are showing me you can't follow the rules right now, let's have a break to calm down and then we'll try again." And that answers my question really. It's too much! She racks up 2-3 breaks a morning. She sleeps most of the afternoon 12:30-3 and she's gone by 3:45 at the latest.
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MG&Lsmom 03:35 PM 04-04-2011
Originally Posted by SilverSabre25:
I read it as, there were two kids sleeping in the car. dcg wanted to eat, but MG&Lsmom was getting the two sleeping kids out of the car first.
Yes, this. We were just returning from picking up the preschool kids, 2 had fallen asleep in the car. I brought the awake kids and one sleeping upstairs first which was when this dcg started screeching that she wanted to eat. After instructing her to remove her shoes and put them in her cubby I went back to the garage to retrieve my sleeping DS. In the 90 seconds I was gone she was slamming an unlocked swing gate into the wall of the napping room screeching that she was hungry. It was 15 minutes before our normal lunch time. She had 2 breakfast and a snack. I was not making her wait to eat beyond our normal time.
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nannyde 03:41 PM 04-04-2011
Originally Posted by MG&Lsmom:
Yes, this. We were just returning from picking up the preschool kids, 2 had fallen asleep in the car. I brought the awake kids and one sleeping upstairs first which was when this dcg started screeching that she wanted to eat. After instructing her to remove her shoes and put them in her cubby I went back to the garage to retrieve my sleeping DS. In the 90 seconds I was gone she was slamming an unlocked swing gate into the wall of the napping room screeching that she was hungry. It was 15 minutes before our normal lunch time. She had 2 breakfast and a snack. I was not making her wait to eat beyond our normal time.
How old is she?
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Live and Learn 05:36 PM 04-04-2011
I ONLY time out for hitting, biting....hurting someone.

I have given 1 timeout in 7 years of dc......A two year old hitting his bossy big sis. I told the parent at pick up and it never happened again. If it had happened again I would have termed.

I have a zero tolerance for violence here.

When other "little offenses" arise I redirect or separate. My lil group of kiddos are so well behaved it is crazy!!
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marniewon 07:34 PM 04-04-2011
Originally Posted by Live and Learn:
I ONLY time out for hitting, biting....hurting someone.

I have given 1 timeout in 7 years of dc......A two year old hitting his bossy big sis. I told the parent at pick up and it never happened again. If it had happened again I would have termed.

I have a zero tolerance for violence here.

When other "little offenses" arise I redirect or separate. My lil group of kiddos are so well behaved it is crazy!!
Following your rules, I have one who would have been termed a while ago. He's 2 1/2. I time out/separate for violent behavior and other things like snatching toys from someone else, abusing (throwing, stomping on, etc) toys. I have done everything I can do with this child as far as discipline, redirection, etc and NOTHING works!! I thought at first he just didn't get along with the other dcb I have here (same age) but one day when he wasn't here, dcb was doing the same thing to his little sister.

Before you think I'm judging you or being negative with my above statement - I'm not at all. If I wasn't done with daycare in less than two weeks, this one would have been termed!! I totally agree that there should be NO violence in daycare, and those who cannot control themselves have no business being in a group of other children.

This child has seriously been in time-out/separated from the group for longer than he was allowed to play with the group - on numerous times. And just in the last week he's taken to ignoring me!! If he's starting to do something wrong, I will say his name sternly and he will go about what he's doing without looking at me! This is new, so I know he can hear me, and I know he knows why I'm saying his name.

I used to tell mom about things he was doing, to try to get some help at home, and for a while things were a little better (apparently he has a much older sibling at home who wrestles with him, so that's why he would play rough with the kids here, and once mom told older sib to stop the wrestling, things went a little better here) but now it's back to the way it was before, but worse. Since I"m done in a few weeks, and the behavior is not changing, just because I tell dcm about it (daily), I just stopped saying anything. My saying anything isn't making a bit of a difference. So, now, when dcm asks how he was, my answer is "fine". And you can bet that if my dc was going to continue, he would have been gone a long time ago. Like, as soon as I realized there wasn't a thing I could do to change his behavior.
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MG&Lsmom 04:22 AM 04-05-2011
Originally Posted by nannyde:
How old is she?
2.5y, with 7 & 9yo siblings. Dad recently returned from deployment and mom just returned to working day shift. Lots going on with this little girl. Parents just keep saying she needs more time. I told mom I'm not sure how much more time I can give her if she's so disruptive to the other kids here. Sibs are mostly good here, but I can see how they just walk all over mom. Dad is hard on them. Seems to me that the whole family needs some post deployment counseling, but I'm not a clinician so it's just my humble opinion.
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MG&Lsmom 04:24 AM 04-05-2011
Originally Posted by marniewon:
Following your rules, I have one who would have been termed a while ago. He's 2 1/2. I time out/separate for violent behavior and other things like snatching toys from someone else, abusing (throwing, stomping on, etc) toys. I have done everything I can do with this child as far as discipline, redirection, etc and NOTHING works!! I thought at first he just didn't get along with the other dcb I have here (same age) but one day when he wasn't here, dcb was doing the same thing to his little sister.

Before you think I'm judging you or being negative with my above statement - I'm not at all. If I wasn't done with daycare in less than two weeks, this one would have been termed!! I totally agree that there should be NO violence in daycare, and those who cannot control themselves have no business being in a group of other children.

This child has seriously been in time-out/separated from the group for longer than he was allowed to play with the group - on numerous times. And just in the last week he's taken to ignoring me!! If he's starting to do something wrong, I will say his name sternly and he will go about what he's doing without looking at me! This is new, so I know he can hear me, and I know he knows why I'm saying his name.

I used to tell mom about things he was doing, to try to get some help at home, and for a while things were a little better (apparently he has a much older sibling at home who wrestles with him, so that's why he would play rough with the kids here, and once mom told older sib to stop the wrestling, things went a little better here) but now it's back to the way it was before, but worse. Since I"m done in a few weeks, and the behavior is not changing, just because I tell dcm about it (daily), I just stopped saying anything. My saying anything isn't making a bit of a difference. So, now, when dcm asks how he was, my answer is "fine". And you can bet that if my dc was going to continue, he would have been gone a long time ago. Like, as soon as I realized there wasn't a thing I could do to change his behavior.
I'm new to home daycare but have been doing private care for 15 years. I'm starting to believe that there are just some kids who can't do group care. I know Nan, I know. I've got lots to learn.
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