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  #1  
Old 08-30-2015, 11:26 AM
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Default Got a Real Hard Case

so I'm at wits end trying to ferberize my now 12mo dcb, it's just not working. This poor baby has been with me for 2mos now, but this is week 2 of sleep training. He's only getting 1/2 hr cat naps if that, no longer napping at home. Mom says she's "working with him" but school age big sis says " he still sleeps on mommy ". Apparently she sits in a chair and bf to sleep and holds all night in chair? I'd hate to term, I'd loose 3kids if I did but I just don't know if this will work. He has to sleep, this is so not healthy, he's so sleep deprived. Maybe hard core cio? Has anyone else done this or should I just give up? He would sleep if I held him in a rocker, but still wakes after20 min or so and crabby. I've got a new 12 mo old and almost 3 yo coming, and I need us all on a schedule in a hurry. Thank you for any advice.
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Old 08-30-2015, 12:10 PM
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I had one a little older and it took two weeks of cio to work. She was 13 months at the time. She slept with mom in a chair with a bottle. You can sleep train them but it takes time. I recently termed her and at 17 months she still won't sleep in crib for mom without screaming until mom goes and gets her (and she does that is the issue), but for me I had her to where I put her in the PNP and she laid her head down and went to sleep. It can work, but it takes time and patience.
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Old 08-30-2015, 01:08 PM
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I had one a little older and it took two weeks of cio to work. She was 13 months at the time. She slept with mom in a chair with a bottle. You can sleep train them but it takes time. I recently termed her and at 17 months she still won't sleep in crib for mom without screaming until mom goes and gets her (and she does that is the issue), but for me I had her to where I put her in the PNP and she laid her head down and went to sleep. It can work, but it takes time and patience.
I've been going in at 10, 15, and 20 min intervals, but he just seems to get more riled up and cries the duration of nap. Is this normal? He's definitely tired.
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Old 08-30-2015, 01:55 PM
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In my opinion, and I know many don't agree, a year old is old enough to cry it out.

You simply cannot mimic how dcm gets baby to sleep at home in GROUP care. I would put baby in pack and play and let him cry.

It's going to take time, and there likely will be regression over week ends and holidays because he will spend more time home.

How long does dcm intend on holding him while sleeping?! The parents have created this issue, and of they won't let baby cry at home, you have a long road ahead of you!
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Old 08-30-2015, 02:05 PM
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In my opinion, and I know many don't agree, a year old is old enough to cry it out.

You simply cannot mimic how dcm gets baby to sleep at home in GROUP care. I would put baby in pack and play and let him cry.

It's going to take time, and there likely will be regression over week ends and holidays because he will spend more time home.

How long does dcm intend on holding him while sleeping?! The parents have created this issue, and of they won't let baby cry at home, you have a long road ahead of you!
I agree with this, but you can do it he will learn the difference between home and daycare. I wouldn't be going in there, it will just make him want picked up. I would put him where I could "peek" on him or use a video baby monitor to watch him.
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Old 08-30-2015, 03:33 PM
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I think there needs to be more consistancy between home and daycare so I would ask mom to start sleep training him at home or she is going to lose her daycare. This is not good for this little kid at all. He isn't sleeping enough and the inconsistancy between home and care is really hard on little ones. I know parents give eachother the opposite advice but I don't agree with it.
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Old 08-30-2015, 05:35 PM
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Thumbs up Thanks all

i was thinking that my going in was just prolonging the inevitable. I really hoped to hear from people more experienced with babies this age as I usually don't start babies this age and, though I bf all my kids I never experienced sleep issues of this level before. You all are a Godsend! Mom has said that she was "trying" to replicate the down to sleep awake but I'm not buying it. In fact it doesn't seem as though anyone in the family puts him down at all! It's good to know I can get him to nap here, though. I'll put in the work if it's possible. They came to me from another provider because she "decided not to take babies" now I think I know why, lol!
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Old 08-30-2015, 07:27 PM
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"Ferberizing" -



While the "method" is controversial I think most would agree the inconsistency is what has the potential to do the most harm. Regardless of how you feel about cio it's not fair to expect an infant to endure completely different expectations. For baby's sake, if that's what you feel you need to do because nothing else is working, then get mom on board honestly or term. Maybe suggest a nanny that can come and replicate what she's doing and obviously feels is best?

I'm in the camp that doesn't think you'll be able to get him down if you're doing the opposite mom is. If you do, it will come at the serious expense of trust and bond. Basically kiddo will go into survival mode and learn he can't depend on you to meet his needs as he knows them (however unreasonable they've become).
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Old 08-31-2015, 03:56 AM
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I've gotten babies who are nursed/coslept/rocked to sleep etc to learn to sleep on their own here, it can be done! BUT it's hard and takes a lot longer if the parents doing it. Part time is way worse. What I do is make sure a new nap routine is established here. Like my newest 12 month old, she knows our routine is play, lunch, nap. After lunch it's quick snuggles, goodnight, laid down in pnp, sound machine on. Ever day. The consistent routine here helped a ton. Then if she woke up and started really crying I'd go over and say shh sleep time and turn the white noise machine back on and she'd go back to sleep. If mom is willing one of those machines could be used at home easily, no matter what her sleep routine there is like and it could be something that's the same at both places. I do use cio as well. It takes time but they will most likely eventually get it and sleep longer but it's hard!
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Old 08-31-2015, 03:58 AM
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Originally Posted by auntymimi View Post
so I'm at wits end trying to ferberize my now 12mo dcb, it's just not working. This poor baby has been with me for 2mos now, but this is week 2 of sleep training. He's only getting 1/2 hr cat naps if that, no longer napping at home. Mom says she's "working with him" but school age big sis says " he still sleeps on mommy ". Apparently she sits in a chair and bf to sleep and holds all night in chair? I'd hate to term, I'd loose 3kids if I did but I just don't know if this will work. He has to sleep, this is so not healthy, he's so sleep deprived. Maybe hard core cio? Has anyone else done this or should I just give up? He would sleep if I held him in a rocker, but still wakes after20 min or so and crabby. I've got a new 12 mo old and almost 3 yo coming, and I need us all on a schedule in a hurry. Thank you for any advice.
At the risk of being flamed, I'm in the CIO camp. This is NOT an infant. This is a ONE year old TODDLER who has learned bad sleeping habits. With my TODDLERS, I make sure they get lots of positive attention all day - hugs and stories and active time. Nap time is in their own room with a blackout shades, fans for white noise, sleep sack, and their own PNP. I put them down with a gentle "shhh shhhh, night night" and a couple gentle pats and then I leave the room until nap is over (I am required to physically check on kids every 15 minutes which I do, but so they can't see me ) I find that for toddlers who struggle to sleep, seeing me only makes them more awake/upset.

Now, CIO does not mean leave them and that's it. I am constantly monitoring them to make sure they are okay. Often while in CIO mode I am right outside the door assessing the situation and peeking in on them (again, so they can't see me) so there's nothing "lazy" about it. When nap is over, I walk in and lift the shades, turn off the fans and greet the child in a positive happy voice. My now 16 month old sleeps amazing for me (2 1/2-3 hours each day) and wakes happy and refreshed.

But I would also start interviewing, because then you may be able to replace if you can't get it to work. Best of luck!
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Old 08-31-2015, 04:12 AM
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Just one other possibility. Are you sure the child is actually tired? I ask this because I had one who wouldn't sleep and suspected parent was putting child back to sleep after morning bottle while she got ready for work. Nice for her but he wasn't sleepy at nap time here. So I told her that he wasn't sleeping here and did different things including CIO but nothing worked. So I told her that I'd try for 2 more weeks and if it still didn't work, I'd have no other choice than to not watch him anymore. Lo and behold she stopped putting him down for that extra morning nap and he slept great. If worse comes to worse an 'ultimatum' might work.

Laurel
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Old 08-31-2015, 06:19 AM
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I have sleep trained babies that have the complete opposite routine at home. My 12 month old dcb co sleeps and breastfeeds at night, but he sleeps in a PNP here and takes two 2-3 hour naps, so it is very possible. Just be consistent and do the same routine everyday. This is what we do: eat, play, wind down (we rock in the chair for a few minutes), lay down in pnp in dark room with fan, say good night and leave. I would not go back in until I know they have fallen asleep. When it is time to wake up, open curtains and be very cheery! Don't make nap a big deal. It is just part of the day and something we do everyday, like eating and playing, so I try not to stress about it. They will figure out how to fall asleep and all you can do is provide the space for them to accomplish that skill. Have fun and play hard and if you are consistent and keep naps a positive experience, they will learn to appreciate that time of quiet and alone time. There bed will become their sanctuary. I think a lot of parents make the mistake of turning naps and bedtime into a stressful, scary experience, and it ends up causing major problems for their kid. Sleep is a natural thing and if we just get out of their way, babies always figure it out, just much more quickly than when we butt in
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Old 08-31-2015, 07:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Willow View Post
"Ferberizing" -



While the "method" is controversial I think most would agree the inconsistency is what has the potential to do the most harm. Regardless of how you feel about cio it's not fair to expect an infant to endure completely different expectations. For baby's sake, if that's what you feel you need to do because nothing else is working, then get mom on board honestly or term. Maybe suggest a nanny that can come and replicate what she's doing and obviously feels is best?

I'm in the camp that doesn't think you'll be able to get him down if you're doing the opposite mom is. If you do, it will come at the serious expense of trust and bond. Basically kiddo will go into survival mode and learn he can't depend on you to meet his needs as he knows them (however unreasonable they've become).
I agree, it would be awesome if mom and I could work together on this, but I'm not sure it's going to happen. Some background on this family: mom is a youngish single mom of 3 , no dads involved for any of the kids. She works in a stressful min wage job, lives with her parents who are supportive and loving but unwilling to do the hard work of raising the children (as is their right as grandparents). They don't mind holding baby, though! I don't think it's so much a parenting style at this point as survival mode for mom. She's tired. I'm pretty much her last resort in our area as she needs somebody who accepts subsidy.
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Old 08-31-2015, 07:28 AM
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Just one other possibility. Are you sure the child is actually tired? I ask this because I had one who wouldn't sleep and suspected parent was putting child back to sleep after morning bottle while she got ready for work. Nice for her but he wasn't sleepy at nap time here. So I told her that he wasn't sleeping here and did different things including CIO but nothing worked. So I told her that I'd try for 2 more weeks and if it still didn't work, I'd have no other choice than to not watch him anymore. Lo and behold she stopped putting him down for that extra morning nap and he slept great. If worse comes to worse an 'ultimatum' might work.

Laurel
He's beyond tired. He wakes at7:30, is at my house by 11:30 and stays until 8:30 pm. He has no real schedule at home. Mom admits he sometimes takes 20 min catnaps but that's it. It's effecting his ability to play. He rarely smiles. All he wants to do is eat and be carried around, he can't even stand the stroller! I'd consider wearing him but he's huge and weighs as much as my 2 yo!
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Old 08-31-2015, 07:37 AM
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He's beyond tired. He wakes at7:30, is at my house by 11:30 and stays until 8:30 pm. He has no real schedule at home. Mom admits he sometimes takes 20 min catnaps but that's it. It's effecting his ability to play. He rarely smiles. All he wants to do is eat and be carried around, he can't even stand the stroller! I'd consider wearing him but he's huge and weighs as much as my 2 yo!
If it is possible, I would feed him lunch right when he gets to you and then down he goes for nap. If he is getting no morning nap and waking at 7:30, he needs to go down for a nap asap when he gets to your house. It may take a week or so to transition, but I would let him CIO and get him on pace to sleep 2-3 hours once he gets to your house. And then, depedning on his mood, I would even consider a late afternoon nap, so that when he gets home with mom, he can last longer till bedtime, which I am assuming is probably ten or later. Hopefully, he will adjust if you just stay consistent. He will get used to your house and be able to distinguish between your house and his home and what his routine will be. Kids are very adaptble
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Old 08-31-2015, 08:14 AM
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If it is possible, I would feed him lunch right when he gets to you and then down he goes for nap. If he is getting no morning nap and waking at 7:30, he needs to go down for a nap asap when he gets to your house. It may take a week or so to transition, but I would let him CIO and get him on pace to sleep 2-3 hours once he gets to your house. And then, depedning on his mood, I would even consider a late afternoon nap, so that when he gets home with mom, he can last longer till bedtime, which I am assuming is probably ten or later. Hopefully, he will adjust if you just stay consistent. He will get used to your house and be able to distinguish between your house and his home and what his routine will be. Kids are very adaptble
.....agree!
Get his needs tended to, then right off to 1st nap. Hopefully that will reel him back into a happier/healthier state of mind when he wakes, instead of that point of "no return" from being so overtired.
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Old 08-31-2015, 08:20 AM
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I agree, it would be awesome if mom and I could work together on this, but I'm not sure it's going to happen. Some background on this family: mom is a youngish single mom of 3 , no dads involved for any of the kids. She works in a stressful min wage job, lives with her parents who are supportive and loving but unwilling to do the hard work of raising the children (as is their right as grandparents). They don't mind holding baby, though! I don't think it's so much a parenting style at this point as survival mode for mom. She's tired. I'm pretty much her last resort in our area as she needs somebody who accepts subsidy.
You need to stop feeling bad about HER situation.

ALL new moms (young and older) are tired. ALL moms/dads struggle.

Being a single mom with multiple dads has ZERO to do with what the problem is.

If she had the children, she needs to do what's best for them REGARDLESS of her living, working, marital and/or monetary situation.

Parenting IS hard. We dont' get to make excuses as to why we aren't providing the tools our children need to survive in whatever situation we place them in.

I agree with Willow that if mom doesn't get on board with what you need her to do so her child can THRIVE not just survive in care, then I would terminate care. It's not fair to the baby.

I also agree that training him to sleep one way at daycare while sleeping another at home can be done but usually not once they reach a year old in my experience. I think that applies more to a younger infant. A one year old is definitely not the same.

I think you need to have an honest open discussion with mom. Perhaps she can change her ways or she can have her parents watch him until he is old enough to attend care and be able to successfully navigate between daycare routine and home routine easily.
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Old 08-31-2015, 09:19 AM
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You need to stop feeling bad about HER situation.

ALL new moms (young and older) are tired. ALL moms/dads struggle.

Being a single mom with multiple dads has ZERO to do with what the problem is.

If she had the children, she needs to do what's best for them REGARDLESS of her living, working, marital and/or monetary situation.

Parenting IS hard. We dont' get to make excuses as to why we aren't providing the tools our children need to survive in whatever situation we place them in.

I agree with Willow that if mom doesn't get on board with what you need her to do so her child can THRIVE not just survive in care, then I would terminate care. It's not fair to the baby.

I also agree that training him to sleep one way at daycare while sleeping another at home can be done but usually not once they reach a year old in my experience. I think that applies more to a younger infant. A one year old is definitely not the same.

I think you need to have an honest open discussion with mom. Perhaps she can change her ways or she can have her parents watch him until he is old enough to attend care and be able to successfully navigate between daycare routine and home routine easily.
I've had 2 yo transition fairly well, maybe that's where this is heading. I know gma really doesn't want to be a full time caregiver to this child ( while mom is working), maybe that will be the push that's needed to get mom to help. We've discussed this just about every day since the beginning. Seems like mom tells me what she thinks I want to hear and does the opposite at home. I'm sending home handouts on the importance of healthy sleep habits, ect. If we don't have a major breakthrough soon, I'll be forced to put her on notice. It would be my first term, not looking forward to that. Thanks so much for your input.
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Old 08-31-2015, 09:21 AM
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.....agree!
Get his needs tended to, then right off to 1st nap. Hopefully that will reel him back into a happier/healthier state of mind when he wakes, instead of that point of "no return" from being so overtired.
This is what I've been trying to do. We usually nap at 12:30. He's never slept in a crib before, so it's been rough going!
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Old 08-31-2015, 09:25 AM
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I've had 2 yo transition fairly well, maybe that's where this is heading. I know gma really doesn't want to be a full time caregiver to this child ( while mom is working), maybe that will be the push that's needed to get mom to help. We've discussed this just about every day since the beginning. Seems like mom tells me what she thinks I want to hear and does the opposite at home. I'm sending home handouts on the importance of healthy sleep habits, ect. If we don't have a major breakthrough soon, I'll be forced to put her on notice. It would be my first term, not looking forward to that. Thanks so much for your input.
The problem is, we can't make parents parent. Don't feel bad about her situation. If you term her because she won't do what needs doing, she will find a way, and it may make her realize she needs to parent.
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Old 08-31-2015, 09:29 AM
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The problem is, we can't make parents parent. Don't feel bad about her situation. If you term her because she won't do what needs doing, she will find a way, and it may make her realize she needs to parent.
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Old 08-31-2015, 10:04 AM
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The problem is, we can't make parents parent. Don't feel bad about her situation. If you term her because she won't do what needs doing, she will find a way, and it may make her realize she needs to parent.
People rarely change their actions until it becomes a problem for them.

Until now, this has only been a problem for you OP, but if it becomes an issue for mom, she will be forced to either change her actions and work with you or she'll have to find alternate care arrangements.
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Old 08-31-2015, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Shell;553212[B
]In my opinion, and I know many don't agree, a year old is old enough to cry it out.

You simply cannot mimic how dcm gets baby to sleep at home in GROUP care. I would put baby in pack and play and let him cry.[/b]

It's going to take time, and there likely will be regression over week ends and holidays because he will spend more time home.

How long does dcm intend on holding him while sleeping?! The parents have created this issue, and of they won't let baby cry at home, you have a long road ahead of you!
I agree...

Sleep training can work with infants ages 6-8 months, ish...but after that, the ship has sailed. Once they can stand in the crib, that option is done, IMO.

I had a little one enroll last year at 9 months. Previous "babysitter" had her sleeping IN A SWING. I tried sleep training first, but like your little friend, she'd just get more upset every time I went in.

So, I developed my little "external cue" technique. Basically, a clock radio or the music feature on my camera/monitor. I turn it on, then walk into the room. Before I leave the room, I say "I will be back when nap is over...when the music comes on". They usually catch on pretty quickly.
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Old 08-31-2015, 12:45 PM
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I agree with Willow that if mom doesn't get on board with what you need her to do so her child can THRIVE not just survive in care, then I would terminate care. It's not fair to the baby.
Totally what I was trying to say and failed lol
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