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  #1  
Old 08-10-2016, 02:36 PM
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Default CA Providers I Need Your Advice

Signed out for privacy. Sorry this is long.

Yesterday I was visited by state for an unannounced annual visit. I live in CA.
The inspector and her trainee came in briefly looked around then asked to see the backyard. I let her out back and the first thing she said to her trainee is "Do you see what I see?" What she saw was a blow up wading pool less than 1 1/2 foot deep. We were getting ready to have an end of summer party for a school age child. She told me that I had to have a fence around the pool. I told her no that we were only using it today and it is an inflatable pool I will empty when done. She still said she had to write me up. My daughter showed her the title 22 paragraph that states we can have a wading pool. Then she said she still has to write me up because I left the pool unattended. We had 4 children 2 adults and we were inside putting on swimsuits. The back door was locked. No matter what I said she still wanted to site me. Then she said she would talk to her supervisor. But she got her phone and went out the front door on the porch so I couldn't hear what she said to her. When she came back in she said she had to site me but I could appeal.

The children were never in any danger. My parents are appalled by this they know I would never put their children in harms way.

Has anyone ever had to appeal a citation to California State? I don't know what my chances are or what exactly to do or say when I write my appeal letter. I would appreciate any help.
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Old 08-10-2016, 03:22 PM
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Signed out for privacy. Sorry this is long.

Yesterday I was visited by state for an unannounced annual visit. I live in CA.
The inspector and her trainee came in briefly looked around then asked to see the backyard. I let her out back and the first thing she said to her trainee is "Do you see what I see?" What she saw was a blow up wading pool less than 1 1/2 foot deep. We were getting ready to have an end of summer party for a school age child. She told me that I had to have a fence around the pool. I told her no that we were only using it today and it is an inflatable pool I will empty when done. She still said she had to write me up. My daughter showed her the title 22 paragraph that states we can have a wading pool. Then she said she still has to write me up because I left the pool unattended. We had 4 children 2 adults and we were inside putting on swimsuits. The back door was locked. No matter what I said she still wanted to site me. Then she said she would talk to her supervisor. But she got her phone and went out the front door on the porch so I couldn't hear what she said to her. When she came back in she said she had to site me but I could appeal.

The children were never in any danger. My parents are appalled by this they know I would never put their children in harms way.

Has anyone ever had to appeal a citation to California State? I don't know what my chances are or what exactly to do or say when I write my appeal letter. I would appreciate any help.
I am in CA and sadly you didn't do it the right way. Rules state that open water of any kind (not even a dog bowl of water) can be left unattended for any reason. Water in pools, water tables, buckets and such must be 100% supervised by an adult at all times or 100% not accessible to the children, meaning a fence or such.

What you would need to do is have all of the children dressed first, then fill up the pool and then stay by the pool 100% of the time. As soon as you are done, dump the pool.

this has come up in many meeting lately and this is my understanding of it. It is not written clearly, but their expectations are what they want them to be and it SUCKS.

I would still try to appeal this.....
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Old 08-10-2016, 04:34 PM
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I am in CA and sadly you didn't do it the right way. Rules state that open water of any kind (not even a dog bowl of water) can be left unattended for any reason. Water in pools, water tables, buckets and such must be 100% supervised by an adult at all times or 100% not accessible to the children, meaning a fence or such.

What you would need to do is have all of the children dressed first, then fill up the pool and then stay by the pool 100% of the time. As soon as you are done, dump the pool.

this has come up in many meeting lately and this is my understanding of it. It is not written clearly, but their expectations are what they want them to be and it SUCKS.

I would still try to appeal this.....
Correct, stupid, but correct.

For this reason alone I don't do pools, mostly because of the drought - I can't justify dumping an entire pool. It's a sprinkler, or water table here.
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Old 08-10-2016, 05:17 PM
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No, see this update from 2014. Page 6
http://ccld.ca.gov/res/pdf/CCUpdateFall2014.pdf

Child Care Center fencing requirements are not required for inflatable or portable wading
pools with sides low enough for children to step out unassisted; however, these pools should be
emptied after each use

As usual, California is vague. The ONLY thing it says is that wading pools have to be emptied after each use. (I am guessing that was your plan) The regs don't say water cannot ever be unattended. They also don't ban wading pools.

I get the overall concern . . . but the analyst can assess the situation and use common sense. If the pool appears freshly filled, it probably is.

I would appeal, especially since it is probably a more serious health/safety violation.
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Old 08-11-2016, 08:33 AM
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I would definitely APPEAL! First, I would email and/or call our CA Provider Advocate and ask for clarification based on what spedmommy4 stated here. Then call your insurance and see if you have coverage for an attorney or legal consultation to help you with your appeal.

PM me if you need the info for the Child Care Advocate. I would be happy to help. This is serious and you need to appeal to clear your record.
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Old 08-11-2016, 09:00 AM
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I would definitely APPEAL! First, I would email and/or call our CA Provider Advocate and ask for clarification based on what spedmommy4 stated here. Then call your insurance and see if you have coverage for an attorney or legal consultation to help you with your appeal.
This is good advice. Call your insurance company to find out if you have some coverage for legal fees. If not, you should find your own attorney to help you appeal the citation. It is always best to have legal representation at administrative hearings. You can check publiccounsel.org or childcarelaw.org for low cost legal help.
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Old 08-11-2016, 12:00 PM
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but what you are not seeing is that it says 100% supervision of open water that is accessible to the children. If a pool had a fence around it, it would not be accessible.

waiting pools can be used under the conditions that I wrote.

CA LIC is not clear on the regs, I agree, but I do know that this is why she was sighted...I just came back from a training and this is what I was told.
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Old 08-11-2016, 12:22 PM
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but what you are not seeing is that it says 100% supervision of open water that is accessible to the children. If a pool had a fence around it, it would not be accessible.

waiting pools can be used under the conditions that I wrote.

CA LIC is not clear on the regs, I agree, but I do know that this is why she was sighted...I just came back from a training and this is what I was told.
True, but the kids were 100% supervised. They were all accounted for in her presence. In fact, two adults. A fantastic adult to child ratio.

To boot, the door to the outside was locked. My laundry room was locked and they considered it off limits and not accessible to children in California.

In this scenario, how is the criteria not met? Do the regs say she has to be standing next to the children with the water? What if the licensor showed up and had taken everyone in so she could take someone potty? What if she's alone and answering the door for licensing?

IMHO, either no wading pools or apply some common sense to rule enforcement. In her shoes, I would appeal.
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Old 08-11-2016, 12:30 PM
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True, but the kids were 100% supervised. They were all accounted for in her presence. In fact, two adults. A fantastic adult to child ratio.

To boot, the door to the outside was locked. My laundry room was locked and they considered it off limits and not accessible to children in California.

In this scenario, how is the criteria not met? Do the regs say she has to be standing next to the children with the water? What if the licensor showed up and had taken everyone in so she could take someone potty? What if she's alone and answering the door for licensing?

IMHO, either no wading pools or apply some common sense to rule enforcement. In her shoes, I would appeal.
the water can NOT be left unsupervised.....I understand that the kids were supervised, but the water must be supervised as well.

water can not be left standing open at anytime without it being 100% supervised or made not accessible to the children.

I think you did the right thing,I don't think that the provider was doing any thing wrong, but licensing says she is. it can take seconds for a kid to slip away from under our supervision and get out into that water..... so they make it the water that has to be 100% supervised as well.
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Old 08-11-2016, 01:48 PM
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the water can NOT be left unsupervised.....I understand that the kids were supervised, but the water must be supervised as well.

water can not be left standing open at anytime without it being 100% supervised or made not accessible to the children.

I think you did the right thing,I don't think that the provider was doing any thing wrong, but licensing says she is. it can take seconds for a kid to slip away from under our supervision and get out into that water..... so they make it the water that has to be 100% supervised as well.
Okay, I know California can be silly about certain things and I know their regulations aren't very clear but I have to wonder who seriously thinks water requires supervision?

Especially when it was posted earlier that:

Quote:
Water in pools, water tables, buckets and such must be 100% supervised by an adult at all times or 100% not accessible to the children, meaning a fence or such.
if ALL the children were inside the house WITH 2 adults and the door was locked then it IS 100% NOT accessible to the children.


OP ~ I'd fight this one all the way. Either the state needs to start being clearer on things or they need to have some training for the licensors/analysts so that interpretation is not so vague and wide open.
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Old 08-11-2016, 02:31 PM
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Okay, I know California can be silly about certain things and I know their regulations aren't very clear but I have to wonder who seriously thinks water requires supervision?

Especially when it was posted earlier that:



if ALL the children were inside the house WITH 2 adults and the door was locked then it IS 100% NOT accessible to the children.


OP ~ I'd fight this one all the way. Either the state needs to start being clearer on things or they need to have some training for the licensors/analysts so that interpretation is not so vague and wide open.
I agree with your BC, but this is what they are saying. This is the land of the fruits and nuts and I am starting to believe it.
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Old 08-11-2016, 02:52 PM
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I agree with your BC, but this is what they are saying. This is the land of the fruits and nuts and I am starting to believe it.
The more I read/learn about your rules the more I feel sad for you guys... you try to do everything right and still someone makes it difficult if not impossible for you to feel competent.

I wish it were better/clearer for you all.
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Old 08-11-2016, 02:58 PM
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The more I read/learn about your rules the more I feel sad for you guys... you try to do everything right and still someone makes it difficult if not impossible for you to feel competent.

I wish it were better/clearer for you all.
I think the saddest part is that because they make it so easy to get a license, they have to write rules for those that don't apply or have common sense..... It would be easily fixed if they made it harder to obtain a license, needing more education and qualifications.
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Old 08-11-2016, 03:25 PM
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I agree with your BC, but this is what they are saying. This is the land of the fruits and nuts and I am starting to believe it.
I pulled the original regulations and the 2014 update. The regulations do not say that the water needs supervision, only the kids.

The update says:
It is the responsibility of the licensee to ensure the inaccessibility of pools, including swimming
pools (in ground and above ground), fixed in place wading pools, hot tubs, spas, fish ponds or similar bodies of water, through a pool cover or by surrounding the pool with a fence.
NOTE:
Child Care Center fencing requirements are not required for inflatable or portable wading pools with sides low enough for children to step out unassisted; however, these pools should be emptied after each use.
Original regulation is similar, but outlines fence height and locking mechanism requirements.

In the transcript of the training licensing gives, the trainer says only that the wading pool should be filled "immediately prior to use." If it was filled, they got dressed, and then went back outside to use it, it would still be difficult to argue that the OP wasn't following the spirit of the guidelines.

* CDSS training: https://ccld.childcarevideos.org/chi...re/transcript/

In any case, per regs, the children were well supervised and the pool was behind a locked door. I would appeal that citation.
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Old 08-11-2016, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by spedmommy4 View Post
I pulled the original regulations and the 2014 update. The regulations do not say that the water needs supervision, only the kids.

The update says:
It is the responsibility of the licensee to ensure the inaccessibility of pools, including swimming
pools (in ground and above ground), fixed in place wading pools, hot tubs, spas, fish ponds or similar bodies of water, through a pool cover or by surrounding the pool with a fence.
NOTE:
Child Care Center fencing requirements are not required for inflatable or portable wading pools with sides low enough for children to step out unassisted; however, these pools should be emptied after each use.
Original regulation is similar, but outlines fence height and locking mechanism requirements.

In the transcript of the training licensing gives, the trainer says only that the wading pool should be filled "immediately prior to use." If it was filled, they got dressed, and then went back outside to use it, it would still be difficult to argue that the OP wasn't following the spirit of the guidelines.

* CDSS training: https://ccld.childcarevideos.org/chi...re/transcript/

In any case, per regs, the children were well supervised and the pool was behind a locked door. I would appeal that citation.
its written so horribly that we could argue it all day long.....gosh they need to tighten things up don't they....

I would fight it too.....I hope you win...sucks when you are doing everything right and they try to read between the lines.....that shouldn't be possible.
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Old 08-11-2016, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by spedmommy4 View Post
I pulled the original regulations and the 2014 update. The regulations do not say that the water needs supervision, only the kids.

The update says:
It is the responsibility of the licensee to ensure the inaccessibility of pools, including swimming
pools (in ground and above ground), fixed in place wading pools, hot tubs, spas, fish ponds or similar bodies of water, through a pool cover or by surrounding the pool with a fence.
NOTE:
Child Care Center fencing requirements are not required for inflatable or portable wading pools with sides low enough for children to step out unassisted; however, these pools should be emptied after each use.
Original regulation is similar, but outlines fence height and locking mechanism requirements.

In the transcript of the training licensing gives, the trainer says only that the wading pool should be filled "immediately prior to use." If it was filled, they got dressed, and then went back outside to use it, it would still be difficult to argue that the OP wasn't following the spirit of the guidelines.

* CDSS training: https://ccld.childcarevideos.org/chi...re/transcript/

In any case, per regs, the children were well supervised and the pool was behind a locked door. I would appeal that citation.
was just thinking about this too. Now withQRIS and FCCERS, it says that we should never make children wait for any extended periods of time. SO in this case this provider was docked by LIC, but would get points for FCCERS, but then turn it around and they would get no violations from LIC but wouldd get docked by FCCERS..

CA needs to get this right....silly I say...FIght this.
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Old 08-11-2016, 06:56 PM
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Fight it!!!!

I fought the state about 15 years ago and won. It was worth the hassle.

The inspector understood the reg which states "at least one provider must have current first aid and cpr training" to mean that meant TWO providers must have it.

My husband was my sidekick at that time and had been very ill and unable to renew his training by the time we got inspected. We were always both certified because we wanted to be. But that's OK, because mine was current.

She wrote me up and wouldn't listen to reason. She also wrote me up on a few "what if" scenarios of her own choosing which were not in the regs. SHE wanted to see more stuff in my first aid kit. My kit met regulations to perfection..

So she gave me some "what if" scenario nonsense and wrote me up on that!. I was so angry. I asked her "what if" I don't have a nuclear fallout shelter for all the kids in the case of an attack? Maybe she should write me up for that??? She told me I didn't need to be difficult!

I fought and won and she had to do some "re-training" according to head office.

Had I not spoken up, those findings would have stuck.

Fight it!!
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Old 08-12-2016, 06:41 AM
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was just thinking about this too. Now withQRIS and FCCERS, it says that we should never make children wait for any extended periods of time. SO in this case this provider was docked by LIC, but would get points for FCCERS, but then turn it around and they would get no violations from LIC but wouldd get docked by FCCERS..

CA needs to get this right....silly I say...FIght this.
The kids weren't waiting though, they were getting their swim suits on so this is no different than any other transition between activities. They all require preperation and clean up.

Our stars/QRIS focuses on smooth transitions and no wait time as well but I don't believe active preparation is considered "waiting" according to FCCERS

The FCCERS score sheets rates on supervision, safety and provider-child communication and discussion during transition and during the activity and imho, all of those things were done/met.
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Old 08-12-2016, 07:41 AM
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Bottom line - the kids were supervised, the water was not. Bodies of water must be fenced in or supervised at all times.
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Old 08-12-2016, 09:47 AM
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Bottom line - the kids were supervised, the water was not. Bodies of water must be fenced in or supervised at all times.
I believe some analysts are interpreting the regs this way. The regulation doesn't read this way. (See above posts) The problem with California licensing laws, in general, is that they tend to be too general. Analysts then interpret the regulations in their own way. That said, the stipulations in the regulations now are that: wading pools are for one time use and the kids are to be supervised. **Unless there is more to the regulation that I have not been able to find on the CDSS website.
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Old 08-12-2016, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Blackcat31 View Post
Okay, I know California can be silly about certain things and I know their regulations aren't very clear but I have to wonder who seriously thinks water requires supervision?

Especially when it was posted earlier that:



if ALL the children were inside the house WITH 2 adults and the door was locked then it IS 100% NOT accessible to the children.


OP ~ I'd fight this one all the way. Either the state needs to start being clearer on things or they need to have some training for the licensors/analysts so that interpretation is not so vague and wide open.
It's to prevent someone else from falling in and drowning. For example, adults and kids are inside getting suits on and the pool is outside unsupervised. Another client arrives to drop off her child and the child somehow gets into the back yard, or a client arrives to pick up their child and they go out front and that child somehow gets into the backyard or another child in neighborhood wanders into her yard through wherever (gate accidentally not locked/latched well enough, hole in the fence etc) and goes in the pool and drowns.

Quote:
Originally Posted by spedmommy4 View Post
I pulled the original regulations and the 2014 update. The regulations do not say that the water needs supervision, only the kids.

The update says:
It is the responsibility of the licensee to ensure the inaccessibility of pools, including swimming
pools (in ground and above ground), fixed in place wading pools, hot tubs, spas, fish ponds or similar bodies of water, through a pool cover or by surrounding the pool with a fence.

NOTE:
Child Care Center fencing requirements are not required for inflatable or portable wading pools with sides low enough for children to step out unassisted; however, these pools should be emptied after each use.
Original regulation is similar, but outlines fence height and locking mechanism requirements.

In the transcript of the training licensing gives, the trainer says only that the wading pool should be filled "immediately prior to use." If it was filled, they got dressed, and then went back outside to use it, it would still be difficult to argue that the OP wasn't following the spirit of the guidelines.

* CDSS training: https://ccld.childcarevideos.org/chi...re/transcript/

In any case, per regs, the children were well supervised and the pool was behind a locked door. I would appeal that citation.
She won't win, guaranteed. The regulations even with the update clearly say that the pool has to be inaccessible and leaving it alone for any period of time for someone else to come in from anywhere else isn't inaccessible.

Water is a HUGE thing here in CA and she won't win if shes trying to get it cleared from her file. If they come back and try to suspend or revoke her license (which they may very well try to do because it's that serious a violation) then she can fight the punishment and say that she doesn't deserve to lose her license and but she'll still have the violation on file.

Quote:
Originally Posted by spedmommy4 View Post
I believe some analysts are interpreting the regs this way. The regulation doesn't read this way. (See above posts) The problem with California licensing laws, in general, is that they tend to be too general. Analysts then interpret the regulations in their own way. That said, the stipulations in the regulations now are that: wading pools are for one time use and the kids are to be supervised. **Unless there is more to the regulation that I have not been able to find on the CDSS website.
I read the regulation and to me it's clear. Bodies of water always have to be inaccessible or supervised at all times. Small bodies of water need to be filled immediately before use ... meaning right before you're going to use it. Get suits on first then go outside and fill with water. Dump immediately after the kids get out. Even water tables are like that here in CA ... buckets of water, wagons that get rained on, a hole in your garden etc. If you are not directly supervising a "body of water" that is not fenced off then it's not inaccessible.
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Old 08-12-2016, 01:29 PM
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The kids weren't waiting though, they were getting their swim suits on so this is no different than any other transition between activities. They all require preperation and clean up.

Our stars/QRIS focuses on smooth transitions and no wait time as well but I don't believe active preparation is considered "waiting" according to FCCERS

The FCCERS score sheets rates on supervision, safety and provider-child communication and discussion during transition and during the activity and imho, all of those things were done/met.
NOOOO. what I was saying that if she did it the way that LIC wanted her to, have all of the kids dressed, pool empty and then fill it up while they wait, then she would have been docked by FCCERS.....

Of course, you could have your asst stay with them and do an activity while you fill up the pools, was just making a statement that it seems like we are damn if we do or damn if we don't..
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Old 08-12-2016, 01:29 PM
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It's to prevent someone else from falling in and drowning. For example, adults and kids are inside getting suits on and the pool is outside unsupervised. Another client arrives to drop off her child and the child somehow gets into the back yard, or a client arrives to pick up their child and they go out front and that child somehow gets into the backyard or another child in neighborhood wanders into her yard through wherever (gate accidentally not locked/latched well enough, hole in the fence etc) and goes in the pool and drowns.



She won't win, guaranteed. The regulations even with the update clearly say that the pool has to be inaccessible and leaving it alone for any period of time for someone else to come in from anywhere else isn't inaccessible.

Water is a HUGE thing here in CA and she won't win if shes trying to get it cleared from her file. If they come back and try to suspend or revoke her license (which they may very well try to do because it's that serious a violation) then she can fight the punishment and say that she doesn't deserve to lose her license and but she'll still have the violation on file.



I read the regulation and to me it's clear. Bodies of water always have to be inaccessible or supervised at all times. Small bodies of water need to be filled immediately before use ... meaning right before you're going to use it. Get suits on first then go outside and fill with water. Dump immediately after the kids get out. Even water tables are like that here in CA ... buckets of water, wagons that get rained on, a hole in your garden etc. If you are not directly supervising a "body of water" that is not fenced off then it's not inaccessible.
MV you beat me to it...

I was going to comment on both of what you highlighted.
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Old 08-12-2016, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by MarinaVanessa View Post
It's to prevent someone else from falling in and drowning. For example, adults and kids are inside getting suits on and the pool is outside unsupervised. Another client arrives to drop off her child and the child somehow gets into the back yard, or a client arrives to pick up their child and they go out front and that child somehow gets into the backyard or another child in neighborhood wanders into her yard through wherever (gate accidentally not locked/latched well enough, hole in the fence etc) and goes in the pool and drowns.



She won't win, guaranteed. The regulations even with the update clearly say that the pool has to be inaccessible and leaving it alone for any period of time for someone else to come in from anywhere else isn't inaccessible.

Water is a HUGE thing here in CA and she won't win if shes trying to get it cleared from her file. If they come back and try to suspend or revoke her license (which they may very well try to do because it's that serious a violation) then she can fight the punishment and say that she doesn't deserve to lose her license and but she'll still have the violation on file.



I read the regulation and to me it's clear. Bodies of water always have to be inaccessible or supervised at all times. Small bodies of water need to be filled immediately before use ... meaning right before you're going to use it. Get suits on first then go outside and fill with water. Dump immediately after the kids get out. Even water tables are like that here in CA ... buckets of water, wagons that get rained on, a hole in your garden etc. If you are not directly supervising a "body of water" that is not fenced off then it's not inaccessible.
Inaccessible/no fence required are the key words in the regs. Pool was outside behind a locked door. That equals inaccessible to kids from inside.

A good lawyer or advocate can argue she was following the intent of the law. Set up, lock door, prep/supervise kids, take down.

If a client arrived for pick up/drop off, and the regs said she had to supervise water-
OP would have to dump pool, go inside with kids, take back outside, refill pool . . . In drought stricken CA. That is nonsensical, even by CA standards. Pools can be made briefly inaccessible by locking the door. (Yes, 2nd adult there but no mention of whether or not the adult could be alone with kids)

We could debate the point endlessly but OPs best bet here is to consult an advocate as mentioned above .
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Old 08-12-2016, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by spedmommy4 View Post
Inaccessible/no fence required are the key words in the regs. Pool was outside behind a locked door. That equals inaccessible to kids from inside.

A good lawyer or advocate can argue she was following the intent of the law. Set up, lock door, prep/supervise kids, take down.

If a client arrived for pick up/drop off, and the regs said she had to supervise water-
OP would have to dump pool, go inside with kids, take back outside, refill pool . . . In drought stricken CA. That is nonsensical, even by CA standards. Pools can be made briefly inaccessible by locking the door. (Yes, 2nd adult there but no mention of whether or not the adult could be alone with kids)

We could debate the point endlessly but OPs best bet here is to consult an advocate as mentioned above .
I'd fight.
I'd rather fight and lose than just accept a citation for something so vague.
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  #26  
Old 08-12-2016, 03:57 PM
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I'd fight.
I'd rather fight and lose than just accept a citation for something so vague.
I agree.

(I'm on vacation in Oregon, in major pain, stuck in a hotel room so I didn't finish my earlier post.)

During my last analyst visit, my new analyst who retired last week told me I should have fought my class A citation for my tomato plants. She said I probably would have won. My old analyst who wrote me up is now my advocate. She said you have nothing to lose.
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Old 08-12-2016, 04:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spedmommy4 View Post
Inaccessible/no fence required are the key words in the regs. Pool was outside behind a locked door. That equals inaccessible to kids from inside.

A good lawyer or advocate can argue she was following the intent of the law. Set up, lock door, prep/supervise kids, take down.

If a client arrived for pick up/drop off, and the regs said she had to supervise water-
OP would have to dump pool, go inside with kids, take back outside, refill pool . . . In drought stricken CA. That is nonsensical, even by CA standards. Pools can be made briefly inaccessible by locking the door. (Yes, 2nd adult there but no mention of whether or not the adult could be alone with kids)

We could debate the point endlessly but OPs best bet here is to consult an advocate as mentioned above .
if she is a large daycare then she would be in violation of a locked door. IF this was an exit door. you can't lock the doors during business hours. you must have emergency egress door locks. which means always able to open from the inside, but lock on the outside.
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Old 08-12-2016, 06:01 PM
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if she is a large daycare then she would be in violation of a locked door. IF this was an exit door. you can't lock the doors during business hours. you must have emergency egress door locks. which means always able to open from the inside, but lock on the outside.
That's another way in which California licensing law is interesting/unusual. All large childcares are required to get a fire permit. And that may be a fire regulation in your area but fire regulations aren't uniform throughout the state. They vary based on the area of California you live in.

A interesting example of this is that my friend both had large family childcare licenses and were both required to get permits. We lived in the same city but I was zoned county and she was zoned city. Because I was county, my fire alarm didn't have to be hard wired to my homes electrical and I wasn't required to put up exit signs. She was and the hard wiring cost over $1,000.

Fire regulations for the area I lived in also only required the front door to have a single action lock. I was permitted to lock all the other doors. The Fire Marshall inspected annually in the city I lived in and he was thorough.
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Old 08-13-2016, 01:01 PM
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That's another way in which California licensing law is interesting/unusual. All large childcares are required to get a fire permit. And that may be a fire regulation in your area but fire regulations aren't uniform throughout the state. They vary based on the area of California you live in.

A interesting example of this is that my friend both had large family childcare licenses and were both required to get permits. We lived in the same city but I was zoned county and she was zoned city. Because I was county, my fire alarm didn't have to be hard wired to my homes electrical and I wasn't required to put up exit signs. She was and the hard wiring cost over $1,000.

Fire regulations for the area I lived in also only required the front door to have a single action lock. I was permitted to lock all the other doors. The Fire Marshall inspected annually in the city I lived in and he was thorough.
That is wacky. Good to know. Both counties I've had a childcare in CA had same fire requirements.
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Old 08-14-2016, 06:16 AM
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Bottom line - the kids were supervised, the water was not. Bodies of water must be fenced in or supervised at all times.
This is what I was told. I don't do pools only a water table and I fill it when we get outside and empty it before we come in.
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Old 08-15-2016, 09:19 AM
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I live in California and just had an unannounced visit. I have a pool which is fenced. I also have a 3 tier fountain that is also fenced, with a lock. My analyst "suggested" I place rocks in each tier. I questioned this as it is behind a locked fence. She said it is just precautionary. However, "suggests" is so vague. I don't think it's fair to suggest interpret regs on a suggestive basis. It makes it wide-open for us providers. I interpreted the regs that the water source has to be inaccessible to children. This is what I did, but am still being provided additional requests.
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Old 08-15-2016, 09:22 AM
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Thank you everyone for all your help. I do plan to appeal. I am gathering all the info I need to send in and I can't find anywhere in the rules where it says the water needs to be supervised at all times. Can someone please direct me to that rule?

I have never had to appeal and the info state gave me on what to do is very unclear. I would appreciate some info on what I should write who do I address it to. I feel they don't give this info to make it harder to appeal.
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  #33  
Old 08-15-2016, 10:02 AM
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Thank you everyone for all your help. I do plan to appeal. I am gathering all the info I need to send in and I can't find anywhere in the rules where it says the water needs to be supervised at all times. Can someone please direct me to that rule?

I have never had to appeal and the info state gave me on what to do is very unclear. I would appreciate some info on what I should write who do I address it to. I feel they don't give this info to make it harder to appeal.
The only links provided in this thread are the following two:

http://ccld.ca.gov/res/pdf/CCUpdateFall2014.pdf

This one ^^ is dated 2014

https://ccld.childcarevideos.org/chi...re/transcript/

This one ^^ is dated 2016

There are a couple members on the forum from California that could/would be a good source of info for you but you will need to register in order to have access to private messaging. If you register, I can PM you the contact info to the members that may be able to offer you some additional assistance.
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Old 08-15-2016, 10:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
Thank you everyone for all your help. I do plan to appeal. I am gathering all the info I need to send in and I can't find anywhere in the rules where it says the water needs to be supervised at all times. Can someone please direct me to that rule?

I have never had to appeal and the info state gave me on what to do is very unclear. I would appreciate some info on what I should write who do I address it to. I feel they don't give this info to make it harder to appeal.
TO MY KNOWLEDGE (and I have been proven wrong before) it is not specifically written that way. It is one of those famous gray rules that you are supposed to know by osmosis. Contact your local agency and ask to speak to your advocate. They are SUPPOSED to be there to help you. Fight it. I wish that I had fought my citation because a class A looks bad when people look it up.
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Old 08-15-2016, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
Thank you everyone for all your help. I do plan to appeal. I am gathering all the info I need to send in and I can't find anywhere in the rules where it says the water needs to be supervised at all times. Can someone please direct me to that rule?

I have never had to appeal and the info state gave me on what to do is very unclear. I would appreciate some info on what I should write who do I address it to. I feel they don't give this info to make it harder to appeal.
The regulations on all types of pools are in Title 22 regulations
http://www.dss.cahwnet.gov/ord/entre...pdf/fccman.pdf
Page 37

It only references one time use and supervision of children.

Information about appeals

http://childcarelaw.org/wp-content/u...ng-Program.pdf

This information was pretty detailed. Hope it helps!
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Old 08-17-2016, 06:39 AM
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Thank you Spedmommy4 that was a big help. I mailed my appeal yesterday now I wait!
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Old 10-03-2016, 01:26 PM
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I received a letter today from State and I won my appeal!

Thank you everyone for all your help.
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Old 10-03-2016, 01:37 PM
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I received a letter today from State and I won my appeal!

Thank you everyone for all your help.
Awesome!! That is great to hear! I am glad you decided to fight it! It sounds like sometimes it IS worth it!
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Old 10-03-2016, 02:01 PM
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I received a letter today from State and I won my appeal!

Thank you everyone for all your help.
That is fantastic!
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Old 10-03-2016, 02:10 PM
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Congratulations!
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Old 10-03-2016, 02:45 PM
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That's fantastic!!
I'll have to tell my provider friend. She appealed her "body of water" violation last week (different scenario but similar circumstances) so she'll be happy to hear there's hope.
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