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Old 09-04-2015, 07:46 PM
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Default Precautions When Unvaccinated Child Is Enrolled

Oh, boy, I know this is a heated one. And I know there are old posts (in fact, I think I started one a few years back), but I'm hoping for quick and specific. I've just enrolled a new child who starts Tuesday; got his paperwork today (more last-second than I usually do), and found out he's unvaccinated. I haven't had anyone unvaccinated before. I am wondering, for those who have enrolled unvaccinated children, do you have certain policies in place? My main concern is the littlest kids, who haven't completed their vaccinations yet, and the infants who may come to pick up big siblings. I wonder about their exposure to stuff they may not encounter otherwise. (Though of course who knows what they'll come across at the playground, etc....but here, I feel responsible.) I was trying to find suggestions online and saw something saying to exclude if there's an outbreak of something there's a vaccine for. Made me wonder how I'd even know, and how I could charge for something like that (i.e. dck not actually sick). Seems excessive, but as I said, I have no experience with this. Advice?
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Old 09-04-2015, 10:23 PM
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Ok I have two unvaccinated almost 1 1/2 and 3 1/2 one parent fully vaccinated other parent is not they are the type that do not believe in medicine an things like that.they believe in like all natural and organic an stuff.suprising they are never really sick they are fine and healthy.the only thing I nocticed is if the have a little cold like stuff nose or minor cough I noticed it takes a little longer to go away than a kid who would take medicine for couple days than its gone there's will last alittle longer.if the kid is barely sick u should be fine, but if get sick alot u probably would send home
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Old 09-05-2015, 04:14 AM
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Honestly, I'd be more concerned about the unvaccinated kid than the others. I don't see it as any different than a baby who hasn't had all their shots yet. As long as the kid isn't in school yet, they're exposure is probably similar to the other kids. And really many of the things we vaccinate for don't offer 100% protection anyway. A vaccinated child can still get measles or chicken pox. Its just usually a milder case for them. Same rate of contagiousness though as the unvaccinated kid would have. Just my opinion.
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Old 09-05-2015, 07:46 AM
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I don't do anything different.
Why would I?
What would you do? Quarantine them to one side of the room?
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Old 09-05-2015, 08:33 AM
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I would never enroll an unvaccinated child, because I like to work with clients(parents) who have similar views as mine. If they don't vaccinate, what other risks do they take? Drive with the child in the front seat of the car with no seat belt?
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Old 09-05-2015, 10:43 AM
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Thank you for your replies. I'm probably just over-worrying. I can't say I completely disagree with the parent; my own child's vaccines have been delayed and stretched out one at a time. Just thinking about all the possibilities, mostly because it surprised me to see (somehow, I've been teaching for 22 years and this is the first time I've encountered this).
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Old 09-06-2015, 08:22 PM
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Originally Posted by NoMoreJuice! View Post
I would never enroll an unvaccinated child, because I like to work with clients(parents) who have similar views as mine. If they don't vaccinate, what other risks do they take? Drive with the child in the front seat of the car with no seat belt?
Working with others who have view similar to yours...fine. Disparaging those who have different views...not ok.

Personally, I feel it is YOU taking the risks by vaccinating. Just because we have different views does not mean I have a right to get flippant and say you must be taking risks such as driving with your child not in a car seat.
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Old 09-07-2015, 02:55 AM
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Originally Posted by NoMoreJuice! View Post
I would never enroll an unvaccinated child, because I like to work with clients(parents) who have similar views as mine. If they don't vaccinate, what other risks do they take? Drive with the child in the front seat of the car with no seat belt?
No offense but there are other reasons kids can't get vaxed besides a parents wishes; maybe they had a bad reaction to the first set of shots & a Dr waived them because he thought it could do more damage than good, or perhaps because of cancer of someone in the family, a child can't get a live vaccine without causing issues for the person (both scenarios happened to me). Your attitude is uncalled for because you are judging people based on one thing without knowing the reason behind it
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Old 09-07-2015, 04:04 AM
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ok, I did not vaccinate my son until he was 17. I knew we would do it before college and he was heading to Spain. I don't know why I didn't vaccinate him I did his sister. I think God saved him He is HIGHLY chemical sensitive but we didn't know that until he was 8. So when we did the vaccinations we did them one at a time and spread out so he could recover from each. I didn't do the chicken pox since he had it! Yay and whooping cough he had and after discussing it with my doc we left that he will get his booster DTap on time.
But I did NOT "take other risks" with my son. In fact knowing now what I know, that would have been the risk. Non vaccinators do it for a large variety of reasons.

Now to original question- I have a non vaccinated little girl right now. The only "extra precaution" I take is when other kidlets are vaccinated I am sure that I change her on a different changing pad. I sanitize between kids but this would be the only "danger" to non baby so I take the extra step. After vaccines your body sheds the virus through your bowels. So if for example if you have a compromised immune system, you should be very cautious when changing diapers. Using normal precautions should be fine. But that is the only extra that I do. Oh and since I have 2 babies same age when the one got his shots last week I made sure that they were not together to play for that week because he had a reaction to the shots. No contact of toys or equipment between the two of them (4 months old) Little guy had diarrhea and doc said shots but... didn't want to share germs in case

Anyway normal precautions are all that you can do.
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Old 09-07-2015, 06:25 AM
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Thank you. Luckily, the child is 5--out of diapers and not mouthing anything.
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Old 09-07-2015, 06:41 AM
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I have a few who are unvaccinated for various reasons. Honestly I don't take any extra precautions. I exclude for fever or potential contagious illness and whether they're vaccinated or not doesn't play into that. I know people have different ways of doing things as far as precautions go but that's what I do.
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Old 09-07-2015, 08:05 AM
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Originally Posted by NoMoreJuice! View Post
I would never enroll an unvaccinated child, because I like to work with clients(parents) who have similar views as mine. If they don't vaccinate, what other risks do they take? Drive with the child in the front seat of the car with no seat belt?
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Originally Posted by Angelsj View Post
Working with others who have view similar to yours...fine. Disparaging those who have different views...not ok.

Personally, I feel it is YOU taking the risks by vaccinating. Just because we have different views does not mean I have a right to get flippant and say you must be taking risks such as driving with your child not in a car seat.
How is she disparaging others with a different viewpoint?
She DOES feel its a risk when you don't vaccinate. Why is her belief that it IS a risk any less valid than those that don't feel it's a risk?
It seems every time someone asks a question about vaccinations, a debate ensues. Everyone is entitled to believe what they want and I didn't read anything in her post that was negative or mean towards anyone else.
She said she likes to work with parents that share her same beliefs. She didn't say she only works with parents that are right or wrong.
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Old 09-07-2015, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Scribbles View Post
How is she disparaging others with a different viewpoint?
She DOES feel its a risk when you don't vaccinate. Why is her belief that it IS a risk any less valid than those that don't feel it's a risk?
It seems every time someone asks a question about vaccinations, a debate ensues. Everyone is entitled to believe what they want and I didn't read anything in her post that was negative or mean towards anyone else.
She said she likes to work with parents that share her same beliefs. She didn't say she only works with parents that are right or wrong.
The flippant attitude came when OP stated "If they don't vaccinate, what other risks do they take? Drive with the child in the front seat of the car with no seat belt?".

That came across wrong to me & a few others... everyone has their own reasons for doing what they do, but don't assume just because they do one thing you don't, does it mean they are reckless elsewhere in their life which is how it comes out
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Old 09-07-2015, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by NoMoreJuice! View Post
I would never enroll an unvaccinated child, because I like to work with clients(parents) who have similar views as mine. If they don't vaccinate, what other risks do they take? Drive with the child in the front seat of the car with no seat belt?
Seriously? lol
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Old 09-07-2015, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by nothingwithoutjoy View Post
Oh, boy, I know this is a heated one. And I know there are old posts (in fact, I think I started one a few years back), but I'm hoping for quick and specific. I've just enrolled a new child who starts Tuesday; got his paperwork today (more last-second than I usually do), and found out he's unvaccinated. I haven't had anyone unvaccinated before. I am wondering, for those who have enrolled unvaccinated children, do you have certain policies in place? My main concern is the littlest kids, who haven't completed their vaccinations yet, and the infants who may come to pick up big siblings. I wonder about their exposure to stuff they may not encounter otherwise. (Though of course who knows what they'll come across at the playground, etc....but here, I feel responsible.) I was trying to find suggestions online and saw something saying to exclude if there's an outbreak of something there's a vaccine for. Made me wonder how I'd even know, and how I could charge for something like that (i.e. dck not actually sick). Seems excessive, but as I said, I have no experience with this. Advice?
I would just send a friendly email to your licensor to see if there are any requirements you aren't currently aware of.
Some states require you to inform other parents that you are caring for an unvaccinated child when their child is present (keeping confidentiality of course), and some states don't require anything but the standard paperwork.
However, you do have the right to refuse care if it concerns you.

Personally, I do not take in unvaccinated children. I prefer that all kids get flu shots yearly too. That's MY choice. I don't have anything personal against those that choose not to vaccinate. But, this is my home, my business, my liability for those in my care.
I write directly on the immunization form which parents are required to manually fill out, that I will not accept children who are not up to date on immunizations.

I also find it a little sneaky that you are just now finding this out. This is a controversial issue and although they have every right to choose what they do or don't do in terms of health for their child; that is not something that shouldn't have been asked or discussed during the interview process (on their part).
Maybe that's just me.
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Old 09-07-2015, 05:28 PM
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The ONLY reason I don't take un-vaccinated kiddos is (ok there are 2) 1. I try to enroll children with similar views as me on all aspects of parenting whenever possible 2. Because I don't want to be on the 6oclock news as the home daycare who had a measles outbreak. I don't actually think having a un vaccinated child puts me at greater risk of an outbreak of some kind, BUT it sounds worse on the news that way...We had a local center go through that and they never recovered. My goal everyday is DON'T be on the evening news...that's the goal
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Old 09-07-2015, 06:41 PM
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My goal everyday is DON'T be on the evening news...that's the goal
yep, that's a good goal!
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Old 09-07-2015, 06:43 PM
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I would just send a friendly email to your licensor to see if there are any requirements you aren't currently aware of...

I also find it a little sneaky that you are just now finding this out. This is a controversial issue and although they have every right to choose what they do or don't do in terms of health for their child; that is not something that shouldn't have been asked or discussed during the interview process (on their part).
Maybe that's just me.
Thank you. I did check with licensing; they have no requirements/concerns.

I don't think it was intended to be sneaky. I live in a pretty "crunchy" area and I bet it's not that unusual. The mom was upfront with other stuff that she could have kept private, so I think it was more that she didn't think it would be a problem.
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Old 09-07-2015, 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by LysesKids View Post
The flippant attitude came when OP stated "If they don't vaccinate, what other risks do they take? Drive with the child in the front seat of the car with no seat belt?".

That came across wrong to me & a few others... everyone has their own reasons for doing what they do, but don't assume just because they do one thing you don't, does it mean they are reckless elsewhere in their life which is how it comes out
Exactly. There was no reason for that attitude. I was pretty clear. If you want to work with others who feel as you do, that is fine. But saying that if I choose not to vaccinate, I must risk my child's life by letting them ride in front without a seatbelt is just rude.
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Old 09-07-2015, 08:16 PM
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Exactly. There was no reason for that attitude. I was pretty clear. If you want to work with others who feel as you do, that is fine. But saying that if I choose not to vaccinate, I must risk my child's life by letting them ride in front without a seatbelt is just rude.
Perhaps I was a bit rude with my metaphor. Let me rephrase. It's like putting your potentially measles-infected child on a bus with a hundred cancer stricken children who absolutely can not have vaccines. Now THAT is rude.
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Old 09-08-2015, 06:45 AM
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Perhaps I was a bit rude with my metaphor. Let me rephrase. It's like putting your potentially measles-infected child on a bus with a hundred cancer stricken children who absolutely can not have vaccines. Now THAT is rude.
What you are not realizing here is that any one of those 'cancer stricken' kids as well as any child who HAS been vaccinated can also carry those measles germs. It is actually MORE likely that my "measles infected" kid will be kept home because I will actually know they have measles, whereas your vaccinated kid will not show symptoms but will still be able to infect others.
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Old 09-08-2015, 07:13 AM
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What you are not realizing here is that any one of those 'cancer stricken' kids as well as any child who HAS been vaccinated can also carry those measles germs. It is actually MORE likely that my "measles infected" kid will be kept home because I will actually know they have measles, whereas your vaccinated kid will not show symptoms but will still be able to infect others.
Same thing with the chicken pox vax... heck when the polio vaccine was oral, ALL my kids had to get a waiver because of cancer in the family (I was the live in caretaker); we found a way to get the dead vax after awhile (5 shots), but people don't understand that it's the vaccinated children who can spread stuff just as much if not more because they don't realize they are "shedding". I can't get the MMR due to allergies to the measles Vax - already had mumps so I'm good there, but I'm at risk every time one of my babies does get vaccinated (most of mine are alternate schedule)
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Old 09-08-2015, 07:43 AM
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I had a parent be sneaky about this intentionally. She interviewed with other daycares (found out after enrollment) and was upfront with them - they declined her the spots over it (against the law). When she interviewed with me mum was the word until drop off on the first day.

In MN I was required by licensing to post a notice on my front board that an unvaccinated child was in care in my home. It did cause a stir and I almost lost other parents for it. I let new kiddo's parents know via email that if/when other parents did vaccinate their children that I would not be responsible if her child contracted a preventable illness via their live attenuated regularly scheduled vaccines.

This is a very big reason why I'm delaying reopening at this point. I had my twin boys (prematurely) and one of them had a local reaction to 3 month vaccines, then a systemic reaction to 6 month vaccines. We live in a state with a large refugee population, in an area where the unvaccination rate is skyrocketing, and as a parent that is a concern to me. We are currently working extensively with an immunologist to sort out what caused my sons reactions. He will (hopefully) get the remainder of his vaccines in small steps and staggered. Since I can't depend on herd immunity to keep him well (which is INSANELY sad) I need to do what I need to do to get as many in as I can regardless of the risks involved with pushing his immunological response.

It's unfortunate, and absolutely INFURIATING that the law protects other children more than it allows me to protect my own in my own home. Since I legally can't say no to one, I have to say no to all at this time.
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Old 09-08-2015, 07:57 AM
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What you are not realizing here is that any one of those 'cancer stricken' kids as well as any child who HAS been vaccinated can also carry those measles germs. It is actually MORE likely that my "measles infected" kid will be kept home because I will actually know they have measles, whereas your vaccinated kid will not show symptoms but will still be able to infect others.

Or, that's not at all how immunology works or how the recent giant outbreak went.

Because it was nearly eradicated due to previously high vaccination rates, no one recognizes the actual symptoms anymore. period....your post exemplifies that incomprehension and is exactly how the most recent outbreak ended up spreading at Disney to nearly 200 people across 24 states.

Regardless of whether one is vaccinated or not, you can become infected and not show any visible symptoms for 8-10 days. You can infect others up to 4 days before the tell tale rash appears. Before then it merely presents as the common cold. This is exactly why it's so insanely contagious.

Unless you're going to quarantine your child for every single minor cold, no, you absolutely cannot prevent transmission to others just by seeing the rash.



Those vaccinated can contract measles but will typically not become as ill. Less coughing equates to less spreading. So no, those vaccinated are definitely not more of a risk to the general population than the unvaccinated are.
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Old 09-08-2015, 08:01 AM
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I had a parent be sneaky about this intentionally. She interviewed with other daycares (found out after enrollment) and was upfront with them - they declined her the spots over it (against the law). When she interviewed with me mum was the word until drop off on the first day.

In MN I was required by licensing to post a notice on my front board that an unvaccinated child was in care in my home. It did cause a stir and I almost lost other parents for it. I let new kiddo's parents know via email that if/when other parents did vaccinate their children that I would not be responsible if her child contracted a preventable illness via their live attenuated regularly scheduled vaccines.

This is a very big reason why I'm delaying reopening at this point. I had my twin boys (prematurely) and one of them had a local reaction to 3 month vaccines, then a systemic reaction to 6 month vaccines. We live in a state with a large refugee population, in an area where the unvaccination rate is skyrocketing, and as a parent that is a concern to me. We are currently working extensively with an immunologist to sort out what caused my sons reactions. He will (hopefully) get the remainder of his vaccines in small steps and staggered. Since I can't depend on herd immunity to keep him well (which is INSANELY sad) I need to do what I need to do to get as many in as I can regardless of the risks involved with pushing his immunological response.

It's unfortunate, and absolutely INFURIATING that the law protects other children more than it allows me to protect my own in my own home. Since I legally can't say no to one, I have to say no to all at this time.
I am also in MN. It is NOT against the law in our state to decline care based on not being vaccinated. Providers in MN CAN deny care to a child not vaccinated and vice versa. ESPECIALLY if you, the provider have valid reason to. Your kids' medical conditions.
Also wondering about licensing telling you that you need to post notice that you have an unvaccinated child in care. ?
Can you post the licensing regulation that state's that as I do not believe that to be true.
I just called my licensor and she said she would think doing that would be illegal since it's confidential information. Not just about the child but about your facility as well since you aren't required to notify anyone (parents) of anything other than licensing citations and/or correction orders that specifically state that you must post for 2 years.
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Old 09-08-2015, 08:13 AM
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.

It's unfortunate, and absolutely INFURIATING that the law protects other children more than it allows me to protect my own in my own home. Since I legally can't say no to one, I have to say no to all at this time.
Tom Copeland also reiterates that non-vaccinated children are not a protected class therefore you CAN deny care to them.
http://tomcopelandblog.com/may-i-ref...-not-immunized

Also here is the state licensing rule. The ONLY person you need to tell if you have non vaccinated kids is the state health board or state commissioner or health. I don't know what they are called. lol but here is the link to the state rules
https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/?id=121A.15
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Old 09-08-2015, 10:44 AM
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Regardless of whether one is vaccinated or not, you can become infected and not show any visible symptoms for 8-10 days. You can infect others up to 4 days before the tell tale rash appears. Before then it merely presents as the common cold. This is exactly why it's so insanely contagious.

Unless you're going to quarantine your child for every single minor cold, no, you absolutely cannot prevent transmission to others just by seeing the rash.



.
Pretty sure that was my exact point. A vaccinated child CAN spread the illness.
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Old 09-08-2015, 10:53 AM
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I had a parent be sneaky about this intentionally. She interviewed with other daycares (found out after enrollment) and was upfront with them - they declined her the spots over it (against the law). When she interviewed with me mum was the word until drop off on the first day.
Sneaky is not acceptable, and you do have a right to decline spots based on the safety of your children or simply by "not having a good fit" for your daycare. In this case, you choose to work with those who feel the same as you do philosophically.

Quote:
In MN I was required by licensing to post a notice on my front board that an unvaccinated child was in care in my home. It did cause a stir and I almost lost other parents for it. I let new kiddo's parents know via email that if/when other parents did vaccinate their children that I would not be responsible if her child contracted a preventable illness via their live attenuated regularly scheduled vaccines.
I live in MN and have never been asked to post about non vaccinated kiddos. My licensor is fully aware I have non vaccinated kids, including my own.

Quote:
This is a very big reason why I'm delaying reopening at this point. I had my twin boys (prematurely) and one of them had a local reaction to 3 month vaccines, then a systemic reaction to 6 month vaccines. We live in a state with a large refugee population, in an area where the unvaccination rate is skyrocketing, and as a parent that is a concern to me. We are currently working extensively with an immunologist to sort out what caused my sons reactions. He will (hopefully) get the remainder of his vaccines in small steps and staggered. Since I can't depend on herd immunity to keep him well (which is INSANELY sad) I need to do what I need to do to get as many in as I can regardless of the risks involved with pushing his immunological response.
This irritates me to no end. You need to do what you need to do to protect your kids. Why do you want to deny ME the right to do the same? You want the right to not vaccinate your child because you feel it is harmful, but want me to vaccinate mine, despite the fact that I feel it is harmful, to keep yours safe????

I realize you are saying you want to continue, which just floors me, but that is your right, and as a parent you must weigh and calculate the risks as well as be willing to live with the results. I must do the same.

Quote:
It's unfortunate, and absolutely INFURIATING that the law protects other children more than it allows me to protect my own in my own home. Since I legally can't say no to one, I have to say no to all at this time.
Again, double check. This is not true for me in MN, so I see no reason it would be true for you.

Last edited by Angelsj; 09-08-2015 at 10:54 AM. Reason: fixing quotes
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Old 09-08-2015, 11:01 AM
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Pretty sure that was my exact point. A vaccinated child CAN spread the illness.
Who in the heck argued otherwise and why does that matter so much to you?

Fact is, an infected vaccinated children will not spread measles as easily as an unvaccinated child will. That's simple biology. Exposure equates to better t-cell memory - equates to a stronger immune system - equates to a non or lessened symptomatic response to subsequent exposures. Less coughing equals less spreading. If one develops the cough that spreads the illness at all.

Fact is, your assertion was that you can prevent a non-vaccinated child from spreading measles simply by recognizing the symptoms and keeping them home.

On that front, you're wrong. Period.

I'm not here to argue whether your choice to vaccinate your child(ren) is wrong or not, only that the points you tried to make are.
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Old 09-08-2015, 11:04 AM
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I am also in MN. It is NOT against the law in our state to decline care based on not being vaccinated. Providers in MN CAN deny care to a child not vaccinated and vice versa. ESPECIALLY if you, the provider have valid reason to. Your kids' medical conditions.
Also wondering about licensing telling you that you need to post notice that you have an unvaccinated child in care. ?
Can you post the licensing regulation that state's that as I do not believe that to be true.
I just called my licensor and she said she would think doing that would be illegal since it's confidential information. Not just about the child but about your facility as well since you aren't required to notify anyone (parents) of anything other than licensing citations and/or correction orders that specifically state that you must post for 2 years.

It was Otter Tail County licensing. I was told I cannot deny care in the same way schools cannot deny care to those who are exempt (for any reason).

I was threatened with a write up at an inspection because I didn't have the notice posted. I expected the licensor knew regs better than I did and didn't question it.

The notice posted was generic (although I'm sure it wasn't hard to figure out who's kids they were). I'm not arguing that it was right or wrong, illegal or not, I was just doing what I was told I had to do to stay compliant.
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Old 09-08-2015, 11:10 AM
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This irritates me to no end. You need to do what you need to do to protect your kids. Why do you want to deny ME the right to do the same? You want the right to not vaccinate your child because you feel it is harmful, but want me to vaccinate mine, despite the fact that I feel it is harmful, to keep yours safe????

No idea what you're talking about there. Seriously. No. Idea.

I don't care what you do with you or yours. I never said anything about denying YOU anything so why don't you just hop right off that martyr train.


What I actually said, and absolutely do think is sad, is that immune-suppressed/compromised children can't depend on herd immunity anymore. It's a very scary world for parents of those children and it's being conjured by choice.

Just because I don't agree with your choices AT ALL, doesn't mean I don't support your right to make them.
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Old 09-08-2015, 12:25 PM
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I got you all this
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Old 09-08-2015, 12:29 PM
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All I will say on this topic is that adults who have defaulted on their vaccines have more to do with illness than unvaccinated children. Herd immunity is still EXTREMELY high at something like 90% compliance. The media is creating a whole lotta hype for nothing.

If you are truly worried about the littles in your care without shots make sure all the parents who interact with them have gotten their boosters as required every 10 years for life. I have them.
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Old 09-08-2015, 12:34 PM
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Also this
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Old 09-08-2015, 12:36 PM
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Last one - I promise I will go fill out my Food Program paper work now.
you all
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Old 09-08-2015, 12:56 PM
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All I will say on this topic is that adults who have defaulted on their vaccines have more to do with illness than unvaccinated children. Herd immunity is still EXTREMELY high at something like 90% compliance. The media is creating a whole lotta hype for nothing.

If you are truly worried about the littles in your care without shots make sure all the parents who interact with them have gotten their boosters as required every 10 years for life. I have them.


This is a valid point, although blood titer's frequently prove that boosters are unnecessary. A person may have antibodies present for much longer than the traditional booster schedule says they will (for some the original vaccine provides protection for a lifetime).

Those adults not up to date with boosters don't always (I'd even go so far as to say rarely) pose the same risk to the general public.


(Percentage of the population currently vaccinated varies wildly. In my state rates average 60-80% depending on the particular vaccine. In my particular county those rates are even lower).
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Old 09-08-2015, 01:28 PM
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Who in the heck argued otherwise and why does that matter so much to you?

Fact is, an infected vaccinated children will not spread measles as easily as an unvaccinated child will. That's simple biology. Exposure equates to better t-cell memory - equates to a stronger immune system - equates to a non or lessened symptomatic response to subsequent exposures. Less coughing equals less spreading. If one develops the cough that spreads the illness at all.

Fact is, your assertion was that you can prevent a non-vaccinated child from spreading measles simply by recognizing the symptoms and keeping them home.

On that front, you're wrong. Period.

I'm not here to argue whether your choice to vaccinate your child(ren) is wrong or not, only that the points you tried to make are.
It matters to me because I am not wrong. Your science is fair for natural exposure to an illness. Less so for a vaccination response. Artificial immunity does NOT build a stronger immune system, and there is a great deal of evidence that it actually weakens it.
Many who do not vaccinate work very hard to keep their children's immune systems strong, so they can weather the storm of measles, mumps or other childhood illnesses and develop complete immunity, not the artificial immunity that wears off and needs boosting.

My point was however, supportive of you. Feel free to vaccinate and to choose to work with those who vaccinate. Just don't insist that I vaccinate my kids against my principles to "protect" yours. It is insistence on "herd immunity" that bothers me.

Parents need to have choices based on their beliefs of what is best for their children. We have to live with the consequences of those choices. I worry any time I see those who want to take those choices from us.

How would you feel if the docs were saying, "we don't care how your kids responded to the vaccines. They have to get more right on schedule."? Choice and respect for our decisions and rights as parents is what it all comes down to.
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Old 09-08-2015, 05:28 PM
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It is unfortunate on all sides because my child had a horrible allergic reaction to her first round of vaccines. The reaction was confirmed by two medical Dr's and an allergist when the vaccine was tested a 2nd time. Therefore she is not vaccinated and neither is my youngest. The DR's did not help me AT ALL in figuring out what component of the vaccine my daughter was allergic to. I thought that if we could figure it out I could get a vaccine made without that component. The DR in the end didn't seem to want to help me and recommended non vaccination instead.

EVERY TIME I tell a medical professional or a school administrator that my child is not vaccinated I am immediately judged. I got so much attitude from my school until I showed them my DR exempt form. Unfortunately I won't be provided one for my youngest daughter since I chose not to expose her at all. Vaccine injury is a real thing. The USA and some provinces in Canada have funds available for vaccine injured children and millions have been given since it's inception. I am just glad that in my case the severe reaction was not life threatening and didn't "injure" my child.

I believe in vaccines. I have all of mine and get them every 10 years but some parents choose not to get their kids vaccinated for various reasons and we should respect that. Look at the real numbers when it comes to "outbreaks". I was very worried about taking my 2 daughters to Disneyland in July and spoke to my DR about it. He told me that it was mostly unvaccinated adults spreading it and that the numbers were so low I shouldn't worry. Millions of people visit Disneyland each month and only 200 got infected. Not one person died! Yet the mass hysteria had me nearly cancelling my vacation!
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Old 09-08-2015, 05:33 PM
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This is a valid point, although blood titer's frequently prove that boosters are unnecessary. A person may have antibodies present for much longer than the traditional booster schedule says they will (for some the original vaccine provides protection for a lifetime).

Those adults not up to date with boosters don't always (I'd even go so far as to say rarely) pose the same risk to the general public.


(Percentage of the population currently vaccinated varies wildly. In my state rates average 60-80% depending on the particular vaccine. In my particular county those rates are even lower).
Where I am it is much higher. My DR would disagree with your statement about adults posing less of a risk. I believe only certain vaccines provide life long immunity like polio. I have to get my tetanus, hepatitis, MMR shots every 10 years. Unless every person gets a blood analysis done (which I did) you won't really know so it is safest to get them.
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Old 09-08-2015, 05:47 PM
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I'm not going touch the vax debate

...but I do have unvax'd dc kids. I don't advertise it though and I only have one family that is anti-vax (they signed religious exemption on my required state paperwork, although I know it's not religion based aversion). I do have a few additions to my contract. For the child's safety I can (and do) exclude them in the event someone in the house has exposed us to something communicable that would put the child at risk. I've used it once and like my normal illness exclusion policy payment is still due. My anti-vax family is super laid back and understanding they had no issues with the exclusions. The child herself got sick once, an illness that the others have been vax'd for, and was out for two weeks but my same Illness policy applies (symptom free 24hr before return, payment still due) and none of the other kids were affected but I did let the other patents know to watch for symptoms in case. Doesn't work for everyone but it works for me, right now anyway.
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Old 09-08-2015, 06:27 PM
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I'm not going touch the vax debate

...but I do have unvax'd dc kids. I don't advertise it though and I only have one family that is anti-vax (they signed religious exemption on my required state paperwork, although I know it's not religion based aversion). I do have a few additions to my contract. For the child's safety I can (and do) exclude them in the event someone in the house has exposed us to something communicable that would put the child at risk. I've used it once and like my normal illness exclusion policy payment is still due. My anti-vax family is super laid back and understanding they had no issues with the exclusions. The child herself got sick once, an illness that the others have been vax'd for, and was out for two weeks but my same Illness policy applies (symptom free 24hr before return, payment still due) and none of the other kids were affected but I did let the other patents know to watch for symptoms in case. Doesn't work for everyone but it works for me, right now anyway.
I do the same... I accept state waivers and exempt them during outbreaks according to health dept rules; my parents pay 50% if they can show Dr note within first 5 days; 100% pay while excluded if no Dr note; I don't play games with parents that refuse to go to the DR when a kid is ill - BTW, I have terminated care for a family for refusing to see a DR when the child clearly needed help...
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Old 09-08-2015, 07:49 PM
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It is unfortunate on all sides because my child had a horrible allergic reaction to her first round of vaccines. The reaction was confirmed by two medical Dr's and an allergist when the vaccine was tested a 2nd time. Therefore she is not vaccinated and neither is my youngest. The DR's did not help me AT ALL in figuring out what component of the vaccine my daughter was allergic to. I thought that if we could figure it out I could get a vaccine made without that component. The DR in the end didn't seem to want to help me and recommended non vaccination instead.

EVERY TIME I tell a medical professional or a school administrator that my child is not vaccinated I am immediately judged. I got so much attitude from my school until I showed them my DR exempt form. Unfortunately I won't be provided one for my youngest daughter since I chose not to expose her at all. Vaccine injury is a real thing. The USA and some provinces in Canada have funds available for vaccine injured children and millions have been given since it's inception. I am just glad that in my case the severe reaction was not life threatening and didn't "injure" my child.

I believe in vaccines. I have all of mine and get them every 10 years but some parents choose not to get their kids vaccinated for various reasons and we should respect that. Look at the real numbers when it comes to "outbreaks". I was very worried about taking my 2 daughters to Disneyland in July and spoke to my DR about it. He told me that it was mostly unvaccinated adults spreading it and that the numbers were so low I shouldn't worry. Millions of people visit Disneyland each month and only 200 got infected. Not one person died! Yet the mass hysteria had me nearly cancelling my vacation!

Not arguing, just clarifying. There were nearly 200 confirmed cases in the most recent outbreak, but that doesn't reveal how many were actually infected. The number was undoubtedly much larger, but because of vaccines, serious illness in larger populations was kept at bay.

And I'm wondering if your doctor is actually an immunologist or just an MD. Because an immunologist would completely disagree with the assertion that taking unvaccinated children to an area where an outbreak is actively occurring is any kind of safe. There is a reason why more and more states in the US are implementing policies that if an outbreak occurs, unvaccinated children are not allowed to attend public schools or licensed daycares.



Globally, measles remains a LEADING CAUSE OF DEATH amongst younger populations. The risk is real and hardly hype. It's not the media, those are the facts. I suggest you take another look at those "real numbers" you mention. 16 deaths an hour on average is nothing to brush off. Just because it's no longer considered endemic as it is in the rest of the world, doesn't mean we should become complacent.....unless we want to end up back in the same boat. in 2000 Measles was considered eradicated in the US. Look at all that have become infected since. It's only a matter of time before those numbers rise exponentially based on the currently plummeting vaccination rates.....


Just an fyi, allergy testing individual components of vaccines is next to impossible at this time. It was likely not that your doctors didn't want to help sort out the what, as much as there are no current standards established to determine actual threshold. You may not be allergic to cats, but offer a dander dose concentrated enough and you absolutely will react. Anyone will react to anything if the exposure is intense enough. There hasn't been enough research done to establish those limits for vaccine components yet. Take heart in knowing your kiddos doc wasn't necessarily complacent, there just isn't a way to accurately define levels yet.

I've already gotten the attitude from others as well (and my guy is just 9 months old!). It is frustrating to be lumped in under the assumption that I'm ignorant or just don't care about the rest of the general population
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Old 09-08-2015, 08:12 PM
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It matters to me because I am not wrong. Your science is fair for natural exposure to an illness. Less so for a vaccination response. Artificial immunity does NOT build a stronger immune system, and there is a great deal of evidence that it actually weakens it.
Many who do not vaccinate work very hard to keep their children's immune systems strong, so they can weather the storm of measles, mumps or other childhood illnesses and develop complete immunity, not the artificial immunity that wears off and needs boosting.

My point was however, supportive of you. Feel free to vaccinate and to choose to work with those who vaccinate. Just don't insist that I vaccinate my kids against my principles to "protect" yours. It is insistence on "herd immunity" that bothers me.

Parents need to have choices based on their beliefs of what is best for their children. We have to live with the consequences of those choices. I worry any time I see those who want to take those choices from us.

How would you feel if the docs were saying, "we don't care how your kids responded to the vaccines. They have to get more right on schedule."? Choice and respect for our decisions and rights as parents is what it all comes down to.
I completely disagree with everything you said in that first paragraph. If any of it were true people would have been a lot healthier and lived a lot longer 200 years ago when no one was vaccinated for anything. I've certainly never once heard anyone try to argue that vaccines offer only lessened "artificial" antibodies (I wasn't aware t cells can tell the difference, and wonder what you think vaccines consist of if not actual inactivated or attenuated viruses - it's not hocus pocus unicorn farts they put in there lol), but at this point it's moot.

I will however reiterate, again:

I never once insisted you vaccinate your kids.
I never once insisted on herd immunity.
I never once said anything about taking any choices out of yours or anyone's hands.


You became defensive for absolutely no reason. Me saying I fear for the health of my own potentially unvaccinated child is no sort of attack on you or your ideals.


(Not saying it's true across the board, but that one family I had that chose not to vaccinate had the sickest kids I've ever encountered in my life. As in both children. Constantly. I swear the nearly year and a half they were in my care they weren't well a single day. Like LysesKids I eventually had to term because the extent of their medical care was honey, vitamin enriched smoothies and a whack job chiropractor. I couldn't watch the kids I'd grown to love suffer anymore and mom got pretty nasty when I finally called her on it. Holy buckets put a fork in me I was done, and admittedly it's more than swayed my opinion on this topic since).
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Old 09-08-2015, 08:22 PM
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didnt read into all of the fun above.

i have both in my care. I follow what my state laws are. which are the unvax child can continue to attend care until there is an outbreak and the county states that can not attend. it is also the county that dictates when they can return.

I don't have to disclose to any parent. it is confidential information

i also have children who are dealyed with their vax due to illness, they follow under the same laws as stated as above.

it is out of my control, however i can deny them care if I don't want to care for kids who don't participate. that is my choice.

however, my state just passed a law that all children MUST be vax to be in any form of childcare or school program.
Licensing has not added it into its regulations as of yet, I was told it could take up to a year before we will be required to enforce it.
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Old 09-08-2015, 09:22 PM
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it's not hocus pocus unicorn farts they put in there
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Old 09-09-2015, 09:21 AM
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Thank you to everyone who offered suggestions; I appreciate it.
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Old 09-09-2015, 09:43 AM
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I have been following this thread and wasn't going to post but here goes......I recently enrolled an unvax family and followed all licensing requirements for my state. Maybe this is just the client, maybe it has to do with the choice to not vax, but I am ready to tell this client that she needs to hire a nanny....from diapering to eating to what time is nap to how long we stay outside to who her children play with to ...... WELL I think you get my point.....she is controlling and makes everything a power struggle.....Not sure it has anything to do with the unvax but she definitely tries to make her ways my ways and that is NOT POSSIBLE
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Old 09-09-2015, 09:59 AM
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I have been following this thread and wasn't going to post but here goes......I recently enrolled an unvax family and followed all licensing requirements for my state. Maybe this is just the client, maybe it has to do with the choice to not vax, but I am ready to tell this client that she needs to hire a nanny....from diapering to eating to what time is nap to how long we stay outside to who her children play with to ...... WELL I think you get my point.....she is controlling and makes everything a power struggle.....Not sure it has anything to do with the unvax but she definitely tries to make her ways my ways and that is NOT POSSIBLE
IME, the parents I've had that are non-vax'ers are also the most difficult to deal with. It's NOT that they are bad people or bad parents at all, they just seem to know exactly what they want (which is great) but usually its something that isn't easily replicated in group care.
They are very observant of their child's body/need/timing etc and I commend them for that but sometimes the things I've been asked to accommodate just isn't feasible here when I have a mixed aged group.
Like someone else mentioned, their kids are also absent the most due to illnesses.
NO idea if there is any correlation to not vaccinating and any of that but it has been my experience so far.
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Old 09-09-2015, 10:07 AM
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IME, the parents I've had that are non-vax'ers are also the most difficult to deal with. It's NOT that they are bad people or bad parents at all, they just seem to know exactly what they want (which is great) but usually its something that isn't easily replicated in group care.
They are very observant of their child's body/need/timing etc and I commend them for that but sometimes the things I've been asked to accommodate just isn't feasible here when I have a mixed aged group.
Like someone else mentioned, their kids are also absent the most due to illnesses.
NO idea if there is any correlation to not vaccinating and any of that but it has been my experience so far.
EXACTLY! and if I try to explain why I can't accommodate her needs due to the "group care" issue she starts to cry and wants me to explain even further and I am not into negotiating I appreciate her closeness with her kids but she needs a nanny!
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Old 09-09-2015, 10:28 AM
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I would never enroll an unvaccinated child, because I like to work with clients(parents) who have similar views as mine.
I like to say I'm not pro vax, I am anti child death. We have all but eradicated these diseases, and the new (fake) information propagated by celebrities like Jenny McCarthy use fear tactics to scare parents not to vaccinate their child. It puts ALL children- vaccinated or not- at risk. I actually had a parent TELL me they didn't vaccinate their child because they didn't want her to 'get autism' my son is autistic, is autistic the worst possible thing your child could be? Nope. I'm gonna go with dead.

This is a big deal to me- and not because they wouldn't buckle up their child (although I do keep up with car seat safety and information and relay that and car seat installation checks to my daycare parents) it's because one of my kids could not finish the MMR vaccine do to severe allergic reactions, so they are unvaccinated against measles, mumps and rubella.


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The ONLY reason I don't take un-vaccinated kiddos is (ok there are 2) 1. I try to enroll children with similar views as me on all aspects of parenting whenever possible 2. Because I don't want to be on the 6oclock news as the home daycare who had a measles outbreak. I don't actually think having a un vaccinated child puts me at greater risk of an outbreak of some kind, BUT it sounds worse on the news that way...We had a local center go through that and they never recovered. My goal everyday is DON'T be on the evening news...that's the goal
don't be on the 6o'clock news. ROFL! CHECK!

One of the SICKEST children I know is the product of AP, unvaxxed, SAHM, unschooled. He is literally ALWAYS sick. He also has zero social skills, self regulation, the pickiest eater I have ever met, and behind in almost every area I can think of. There is a reason why his mother and I are not friends. (dh is friends with her dh)
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Old 09-09-2015, 10:32 AM
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I have been following this thread and wasn't going to post but here goes......I recently enrolled an unvax family and followed all licensing requirements for my state. Maybe this is just the client, maybe it has to do with the choice to not vax, but I am ready to tell this client that she needs to hire a nanny....from diapering to eating to what time is nap to how long we stay outside to who her children play with to ...... WELL I think you get my point.....she is controlling and makes everything a power struggle.....Not sure it has anything to do with the unvax but she definitely tries to make her ways my ways and that is NOT POSSIBLE
See my unvax & alternate schedule families are laid back, but then I only contract parents that are on board with my eco ways too lol. All my families signed on because my home is fragrance free, I cook Organic etc... the only parent I had that I booted was against everything my childcare is based on (your client sounds just like the family that is gone)
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Old 09-09-2015, 10:41 AM
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To be honest, we can all over worry and second guess but the research that I have read says that there is great risk to the unvaccinated. This heard immunity is a bunch of horse feathers. Vaccines don't cause autism. I would just take normal precautions. I disagree with the theory that it is worse to vaccinate. It is a providers own choice to enroll an unvaccinated child. If everyone stuck to there illness policy the illness chain would be broken. JMO!
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Old 09-09-2015, 10:59 AM
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There's no controversy. It's been well established that it's saved more lives from day 1. Not vaccinating a healthy child is putting that child and others at risk. All well documented.
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Old 09-09-2015, 11:01 AM
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To be honest, we can all over worry and second guess but the research that I have read says that there is great risk to the unvaccinated. This heard immunity is a bunch of horse feathers. Vaccines don't cause autism. I would just take normal precautions. I disagree with the theory that it is worse to vaccinate. It is a providers own choice to enroll an unvaccinated child. If everyone stuck to there illness policy the illness chain would be broken. JMO!
Nooooo. Parent lie. Parents medicate. Kids have "allergies". Kids are contagious before they're symptomatic. Kids are dosed and dropped.
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Old 09-09-2015, 11:06 AM
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Not arguing, just clarifying. There were nearly 200 confirmed cases in the most recent outbreak, but that doesn't reveal how many were actually infected. The number was undoubtedly much larger, but because of vaccines, serious illness in larger populations was kept at bay.

And I'm wondering if your doctor is actually an immunologist or just an MD. Because an immunologist would completely disagree with the assertion that taking unvaccinated children to an area where an outbreak is actively occurring is any kind of safe. There is a reason why more and more states in the US are implementing policies that if an outbreak occurs, unvaccinated children are not allowed to attend public schools or licensed daycares.



Globally, measles remains a LEADING CAUSE OF DEATH amongst younger populations. The risk is real and hardly hype. It's not the media, those are the facts. I suggest you take another look at those "real numbers" you mention. 16 deaths an hour on average is nothing to brush off. Just because it's no longer considered endemic as it is in the rest of the world, doesn't mean we should become complacent.....unless we want to end up back in the same boat. in 2000 Measles was considered eradicated in the US. Look at all that have become infected since. It's only a matter of time before those numbers rise exponentially based on the currently plummeting vaccination rates.....


Just an fyi, allergy testing individual components of vaccines is next to impossible at this time. It was likely not that your doctors didn't want to help sort out the what, as much as there are no current standards established to determine actual threshold. You may not be allergic to cats, but offer a dander dose concentrated enough and you absolutely will react. Anyone will react to anything if the exposure is intense enough. There hasn't been enough research done to establish those limits for vaccine components yet. Take heart in knowing your kiddos doc wasn't necessarily complacent, there just isn't a way to accurately define levels yet.

I've already gotten the attitude from others as well (and my guy is just 9 months old!). It is frustrating to be lumped in under the assumption that I'm ignorant or just don't care about the rest of the general population
Here's the thing though, globally people are dying from a lot of illnesses so to look at global numbers is not a fair comparison in my opinion. I was just talking about the USA and where I happened to be visiting. We went, we came back without getting sick so in the end it was safe. I don't think my kids would have gotten very sick anyway and the health care system in the USA is excellent so I weighed the risks and went. My sister had measles as a kid and she missed a couple of days of school and it was no big deal. I do understand it can cause major havoc for some people but so can any illness including the flu. I can only trust my DR so I assume he is educated and knows what he is taking about. I don't have access to immunologists only MD's so I either trust them or do my own research as best I can. It is definitely a frustrating situation to be in!! Thanks for the information though, I am learning as I go along mostly
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Old 09-09-2015, 11:15 AM
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Ariana Ariana is online now
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Do people honesty still believe vaccines cause autism? I don't know any parents of nonvaccinated kids who believe that! They just want vaccines to be safer. I don't know why everyone can't agree on that end.
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Old 09-09-2015, 11:24 AM
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Do people honesty still believe vaccines cause autism? I don't know any parents of nonvaccinated kids who believe that! They just want vaccines to be safer. I don't know why everyone can't agree on that end.
Yes they really do! My pediatrician orders single vaccines without thimerisol now. You can request them yourself. I used to in advance when it was less common since they had to order them.
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Old 09-09-2015, 12:31 PM
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Do people honesty still believe vaccines cause autism? I don't know any parents of nonvaccinated kids who believe that! They just want vaccines to be safer. I don't know why everyone can't agree on that end.
Yep. I termed a family shortly after a conversation about how she wouldn't vax her 4 year old because she didn't want him to get autism. This was less than a year ago. There were scheduling issues and a few other things making me consider terming, then we had the autism chat and I realized I couldn't deal with someone who made me want to bang my head into a wall

I truly respect people making choices based on consulting their doctors and doing research but EVERYONE knows vaccinations don't cause autism.

Also I had a newborn and my dad just had a bone marrow transplant and visits me a lot - just no worth even the possibility of a risk for me. And all adults in my house are up to date on boosters.
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Old 09-09-2015, 03:06 PM
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Yep. I termed a family shortly after a conversation about how she wouldn't vax her 4 year old because she didn't want him to get autism. This was less than a year ago. There were scheduling issues and a few other things making me consider terming, then we had the autism chat and I realized I couldn't deal with someone who made me want to bang my head into a wall

I truly respect people making choices based on consulting their doctors and doing research but EVERYONE knows vaccinations don't cause autism.

Also I had a newborn and my dad just had a bone marrow transplant and visits me a lot - just no worth even the possibility of a risk for me. And all adults in my house are up to date on boosters.
I totally understand! Sent a letter home today stating I appreciate the decisions you have made and are making regarding your own children. However, this is group care and if you cannot follow my policies then you need to look for one on one care. She left embarrassed, angry, frustrated, and would not even look at me....This has been going on for 6 weeks and I had to do something or go insane..
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