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Daycare Center and Family Home Forum>The Choice Not to Vaccinate
CraftyMom 06:14 AM 11-20-2014
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/n...-life/7007955/

I know there is a lot of controversy on this topic and I'm not trying to start a debate

Just wanted to share a couple of stories from families who had life altering experiences due others' choices not to vaccinate. Parents choose not to vaccinate because they want "the best for their child". Not realizing that choice can affect the lives of another family.

I know the Riffenburg family in this story. Their healthy newborn baby boy died after contracting whooping cough, he hadn't yet been vaccinated because he was too young. His doctors thought he just had a cold. It progressed rapidly and two weeks later he died.
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LysesKids 12:10 PM 11-20-2014
Well as a parent who almost lost 2 of her 3 kids after the first round of DPT ( both had seizures and went into coma), I will tell you sometimes medical exemptions trump what others think of non Vaxing families. Some of us had no option...
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Unregistered 12:22 PM 11-20-2014
Originally Posted by LysesKids:
Well as a parent who almost lost 2 of her 3 kids after the first round of DPT ( both had seizures and went into coma), I will tell you sometimes medical exemptions trump what others think of non Vaxing families. Some of us had no option...

I consider your kids in the same category as those who are too young to get the vaccines. Your family is dependent on the herd immunity to keep your kids safe. If I were in your shoes I'd be so super pissed off at families whose kids can and should get their shots, but don't just because they believe in some junk science.
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Scribbles 12:39 PM 11-20-2014
Three-quarters of American parents would consider removing their children from day care if other kids did not have all the recommended vaccinations, and many say that under-vaccinated children shouldn't be allowed to attend day care.

Those are among the findings from a national survey of parents of children up to 5 years old. The parents were asked how they would respond if 25 percent of children in their day care center were not up to date on vaccines, which mirrors the actual situation in the United States.

Seventy-four percent of parents said they would think about removing their children from the day care center. And 52 percent "strongly agreed" and 22 percent "agreed" that day care providers should review children's immunization status every year to ensure they have received all the recommended vaccinations.

Forty-one percent of parents said under-vaccinated children should not be allowed to attend day care, 28 percent supported a grace period to get those children vaccinated, and 21 percent would insist that parents of those children get a waiver from the child's doctor.

Only 10 percent of parents believed a child should be allowed to attend day care if he or she was not up-to-date on vaccines, according to the University of Michigan C.S. Mott Children's Hospital National Poll on Children's Health.

Two-thirds of parents said they should be told the number of children in their day care center who are not up-to-date on vaccines, but only 25 percent said they should be given those children's names.

While all states require vaccines for children who attend day care, some don't require those children to have every vaccine recommended between birth to 5 years of age.

"Results of this poll indicate that most parents want strong policies around making sure children in day care are up-to-date on vaccines," Sarah Clark, associate director of the poll and associate research scientist in the university's pediatrics department, said in a university news release.

"Checking vaccination records every year is beyond the scope of many state requirements, and may represent a significant change in practice at many day cares," she said.

Clark added that "the bottom line is this poll shows that parents of young children have real concerns about whether vaccination standards are upheld in the day care setting. Parents should feel empowered to ask about day care vaccination policies, such as how the day care handles the situation of children who are not up-to-date, and whether they check children's vaccination status every year."

http://www.kttc.com/story/27415166/p...accinated-poll
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Unregistered 02:20 PM 11-20-2014
We have had to keep track of all immunizations for probably 30 years.
Regulations sure must vary a lot.
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BrooklynM 02:27 PM 11-20-2014
I do feel like doctors should be more careful about not over vaccinating though. My son (who is 12) ended up getting 2 of the same flu shots this year. I had explained to them that he already had a flu shot, then they said, no that was for last season's virus, so I said ok and then later when we went in for something different, the nurse looked at the records and told me- oh, they gave him the same vaccine twice. The doctor was made aware and he apologized, but...1 month later, I brought my daughter into the same doctor and they almost did the same thing until I stopped them and said- no, she already had that shot.We changed doctors!

This is just a side rant, sorry. LOL
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Thriftylady 02:49 PM 11-20-2014
I gave my kids all vaccinations accept the new gardasil. I just accepted that science knows what is best and such. Until three years ago when I got a flu shot and got very ill. They couldn't really explain my reaction, only would say "you had some kind of reaction to it and can never have another flu vaccine". If I had to vaccinate my children now after living through that, I am not sure that I would. None of us have had a flu shot since then that is for sure. I just sit on a fence about this now.
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craftymissbeth 02:50 PM 11-20-2014
Originally Posted by Unregistered:
We have had to keep track of all immunizations for probably 30 years.
Regulations sure must vary a lot.
You have to hold onto all of your dck's immunizations for 30 years?
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BrooklynM 03:07 PM 11-20-2014
Originally Posted by Thriftylady:
I gave my kids all vaccinations accept the new gardasil. I just accepted that science knows what is best and such. Until three years ago when I got a flu shot and got very ill. They couldn't really explain my reaction, only would say "you had some kind of reaction to it and can never have another flu vaccine". If I had to vaccinate my children now after living through that, I am not sure that I would. None of us have had a flu shot since then that is for sure. I just sit on a fence about this now.
Out of curiosity, why not the gardasil vaccine?
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Unregistered 03:28 PM 11-20-2014
Originally Posted by craftymissbeth:
You have to hold onto all of your dck's immunizations for 30 years?
No, we have been required to record all immunizations for all children in care for that long, not keep children's records for that long.
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CraftyMom 03:52 PM 11-20-2014
Originally Posted by BrooklynM:
Out of curiosity, why not the gardasil vaccine?


There are many videos and articles online. Here are a couple.

http://www.judicialwatch.org/blog/20...ly-profitable/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2z6RK2uTWc
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Angelsj 06:51 PM 11-20-2014
Originally Posted by CraftyMom:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/n...-life/7007955/

I know there is a lot of controversy on this topic and I'm not trying to start a debate

Just wanted to share a couple of stories from families who had life altering experiences due others' choices not to vaccinate. Parents choose not to vaccinate because they want "the best for their child". Not realizing that choice can affect the lives of another family.

I know the Riffenburg family in this story. Their healthy newborn baby boy died after contracting whooping cough, he hadn't yet been vaccinated because he was too young. His doctors thought he just had a cold. It progressed rapidly and two weeks later he died.
The pertussis vaccine is minimally effective. The baby's death is a tragedy, but it is not the "fault" of those who choose not to vaccinate their children. Pertussis can be spread even by fully vaccinated children.
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DaveA 03:57 AM 11-21-2014
I've never had the situation come up yet in my program.

I'm not commenting on the personal decision of vaccinating/ not vaccinating. That is for each family to make on their own.

As a provider, I look at it this way: Every family can decide not to vaccinate. I can decide not to provide care for a family based on their decisions that could affect myself and others. I don't think less of people who don't vaccinate, but I don't think I would provide care for the family .
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LysesKids 04:55 AM 11-21-2014
Originally Posted by DaveArmour:
I've never had the situation come up yet in my program.

I'm not commenting on the personal decision of vaccinating/ not vaccinating. That is for each family to make on their own.

As a provider, I look at it this way: Every family can decide not to vaccinate. I can decide not to provide care for a family based on their decisions that could affect myself and others. I don't think less of people who don't vaccinate, but I don't think I would provide care for the family .
I am an infant only provider and I accept all families as long as they follow state law; that includes non vax waivers... all families here are aware coming in that at any time there could be a non vaxer in here, but most are doing alternative schedules anyway - nobody knows who is who, but because my own kids were under medical exemption, I sort of understand (my kids are now all adults); And No, my daughters did not get the Gardasil - there was a big push when it first came out and after doing research we agreed together it was NO (my youngest dd was a young teen at the time).
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craftymissbeth 05:50 AM 11-21-2014
Originally Posted by DaveArmour:
I've never had the situation come up yet in my program.

I'm not commenting on the personal decision of vaccinating/ not vaccinating. That is for each family to make on their own.

As a provider, I look at it this way: Every family can decide not to vaccinate. I can decide not to provide care for a family based on their decisions that could affect myself and others. I don't think less of people who don't vaccinate, but I don't think I would provide care for the family .
My concern business-wise is where have they drawn the line as far as discrimination goes in this situation? In Kansas, the only exemptions are religious or medical. If I deny a family care based on not vaccinating then is it religious or medical discrimination?
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DaveA 06:12 AM 11-21-2014
Originally Posted by craftymissbeth:
My concern business-wise is where have they drawn the line as far as discrimination goes in this situation? In Kansas, the only exemptions are religious or medical. If I deny a family care based on not vaccinating then is it religious or medical discrimination?
Personally, I don't think so. As I understand it, in Illinois providers are given pretty wide latitude on refusing to provide care when it involves situations they feel uncomfortable with or unable to properly provide care for. As for exemptions, someone choosing to not vaccinate for a faith based or medical reason would be far more likely to be able to persuade me to provide care than someone who just didn't want to vaccinate because they read an article on Facebook. Not saying most people who don't vaccinate don't research or choose carefully. Just that there are idiots on both sides of every argument.
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Thriftylady 06:52 AM 11-21-2014
Originally Posted by BrooklynM:
Out of curiosity, why not the gardasil vaccine?
Because it is new, and I heard things about it and DD was due for it at the same time I had this issue with the flu shot happen. Even our doctor couldn't tell me he completely trusted it was safe at the time due to the newness of it.
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Unregistered 07:26 AM 11-21-2014
Originally Posted by Angelsj:
The pertussis vaccine is minimally effective. The baby's death is a tragedy, but it is not the "fault" of those who choose not to vaccinate their children. Pertussis can be spread even by fully vaccinated children.
The way I understand it, pertussis vaccines ARE effective, but they just are not effective for a lifetime, you have to have boosters beyond childhood in order to protect the young children.


"Q: Can pertussis be prevented with vaccines?

A: Yes. Pertussis, or whooping cough, can be prevented with vaccines. Before pertussis vaccines became widely available in the 1940s, about 200,000 children got sick with it each year in the US and about 9,000 died as a result of the infection. Now we see about 10,000–40,000 cases reported each year and unfortunately about 10–20 deaths."



"Q: Do pertussis vaccines protect for a lifetime? If I've had whooping cough, do I still need a pertussis booster?

A: Getting sick with pertussis or getting pertussis vaccines doesn't provide lifelong protection, which means you can still get pertussis and pass it onto infants.

Pertussis vaccines are effective, but not perfect. They typically offer high levels of protection within the first 2 years of getting vaccinated, but then protection decreases over time. This is known as waning immunity. Similarly, natural infection may also only protect you for a few years.

In general, DTaP vaccines are 80-90% effective. Among kids who get all 5 doses of DTaP on schedule, effectiveness is very high within the year following the 5th dose – at least 9 out of 10 kids are fully protected. There is a modest decrease in effectiveness in each following year. About 7 out of 10 kids are fully protected 5 years after getting their last dose of DTaP and the other 3 out of 10 kids are partially protected – protecting against serious disease."

CDC website
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LysesKids 09:37 AM 11-21-2014
Originally Posted by Unregistered:
The way I understand it, pertussis vaccines ARE effective, but they just are not effective for a lifetime, you have to have boosters beyond childhood in order to protect the young children.


"Q: Can pertussis be prevented with vaccines?

A: Yes. Pertussis, or whooping cough, can be prevented with vaccines. Before pertussis vaccines became widely available in the 1940s, about 200,000 children got sick with it each year in the US and about 9,000 died as a result of the infection. Now we see about 10,000–40,000 cases reported each year and unfortunately about 10–20 deaths."



"Q: Do pertussis vaccines protect for a lifetime? If I've had whooping cough, do I still need a pertussis booster?

A: Getting sick with pertussis or getting pertussis vaccines doesn't provide lifelong protection, which means you can still get pertussis and pass it onto infants.

Pertussis vaccines are effective, but not perfect. They typically offer high levels of protection within the first 2 years of getting vaccinated, but then protection decreases over time. This is known as waning immunity. Similarly, natural infection may also only protect you for a few years.

In general, DTaP vaccines are 80-90% effective. Among kids who get all 5 doses of DTaP on schedule, effectiveness is very high within the year following the 5th dose – at least 9 out of 10 kids are fully protected. There is a modest decrease in effectiveness in each following year. About 7 out of 10 kids are fully protected 5 years after getting their last dose of DTaP and the other 3 out of 10 kids are partially protected – protecting against serious disease."

CDC website
My family is one of the ones this doesn't work for... my own grandchild who was fully vaxed got whooping cough and gave it to his mom (medical exemption when she was younger); it almost killed my daughter & her unborn (#4 grand) because the doctors misdiagnosed her. They also assumed she had been vaxed instead of checking records... the same idiot Dr's pumped her with Penicillin when it was clearly in the chart she was deathly allergic. Talk about a messed up situation. A few posters here may remember the situation from another Forum... it was during the Derecho a few years ago - I was trying to get from AR to Baltimore where they had airlifted my dd. I got stuck on the WV/KY line for 2 days not knowing if I would see my child again because of no elec, no gas, no ice etc. Those in states not affected had no clue had bad some areas really were
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hope 09:54 AM 11-21-2014
I will not accept any family that doesn't vaccinate. DH has a compromised immune system so it is not worth the risk for me. I am very upfront about this at interview. While I sympathize with a parents decision not to vaccinate, I do wish parents would take precautions if they do chose to not vaccinate. We as providers complain all the time on this forum about parents that send their children in sick. The risk is much greater when they are sending in an child that is not immunized.
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daycarediva 11:30 AM 11-21-2014
My kids all had severe reactions to the MMR vaccine, so after my son had a seizure and 105* fever, the pediatrician said no more MMR.

Originally Posted by DaveArmour:
I've never had the situation come up yet in my program.

I'm not commenting on the personal decision of vaccinating/ not vaccinating. That is for each family to make on their own.

As a provider, I look at it this way: Every family can decide not to vaccinate. I can decide not to provide care for a family based on their decisions that could affect myself and others. I don't think less of people who don't vaccinate, but I don't think I would provide care for the family .
Same here, and I am upfront about it. UP TO DATE on immunizations.
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EntropyControlSpecialist 12:02 PM 11-21-2014
Majority of people who contract whooping cough have received the vaccination. That is all I needed to say.
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SignMeUp 12:30 PM 11-21-2014
Originally Posted by EntropyControlSpecialist:
Majority of people who contract whooping cough have received the vaccination. That is all I needed to say.
But it's not really that simple. The immunization has still cut down the number of cases drastically from years before the immunization was available.

This is a very serious illness for children under two and should not be taken lightly. Of course there are people who are unable to have the immunization; my child was one of them. After her third DTaP, she did not continue to have it because she was in a risk group for complications.

This vaccine's effectiveness fades with time. Here, there are PSAs frequently, letting people know that adults should have the vaccine to help protect young children, even if they were "fully immunized" as children.
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Angelsj 08:00 PM 11-23-2014
Originally Posted by Unregistered:
The way I understand it, pertussis vaccines ARE effective, but they just are not effective for a lifetime, you have to have boosters beyond childhood in order to protect the young children.


"Q: Can pertussis be prevented with vaccines?

A: Yes. Pertussis, or whooping cough, can be prevented with vaccines. Before pertussis vaccines became widely available in the 1940s, about 200,000 children got sick with it each year in the US and about 9,000 died as a result of the infection. Now we see about 10,000–40,000 cases reported each year and unfortunately about 10–20 deaths."



"Q: Do pertussis vaccines protect for a lifetime? If I've had whooping cough, do I still need a pertussis booster?

A: Getting sick with pertussis or getting pertussis vaccines doesn't provide lifelong protection, which means you can still get pertussis and pass it onto infants.

Pertussis vaccines are effective, but not perfect. They typically offer high levels of protection within the first 2 years of getting vaccinated, but then protection decreases over time. This is known as waning immunity. Similarly, natural infection may also only protect you for a few years.

In general, DTaP vaccines are 80-90% effective. Among kids who get all 5 doses of DTaP on schedule, effectiveness is very high within the year following the 5th dose – at least 9 out of 10 kids are fully protected. There is a modest decrease in effectiveness in each following year. About 7 out of 10 kids are fully protected 5 years after getting their last dose of DTaP and the other 3 out of 10 kids are partially protected – protecting against serious disease."

CDC website
None of this addresses what was said in my post. A child who has been fully vaccinated is just as capable of passing pertussis to you as a child who is not vaccinated. Look carefully at this chart.
The CDC can say whatever they like in their FAQ, but their own fact sheets deny this. If you look at the chart at the bottom "DTaP vaccination history of pertussis cases" you will note very quickly that across the board, getting more doses of pertussis vaccine INCREASES your chance of getting pertussis.

Pertussis is a bacteria. This already decreases the effectiveness of a vaccine.
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_Dana_ 08:23 AM 11-24-2014
I require that my DCKs be vaccinated and kept current on them.

My family has to be vaccinated because we are an international family. My husband is Bahamian, my mother-in-law is French, and my brother-in-law is from St. Maarten. My father-in-law travels internationally to speak at conventions and symposiums. In order to travel to other countries, their immigration laws require that we be vaccinated. I have friends from all over the world who, on occasion, travel home to see their families. This means that we may be exposed to all different kinds of germs. My daycare families know this and understand why I require vaccinations.

It is a necessary precaution for my family and business.
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finsup 10:09 AM 11-24-2014
Not only are we leaving the number of children up to God (so hopefully, lots of of babies around our home!) I typically start caring for children when they are just 6-8 weeks old. I'm not risking it with a family that doesn't want to vaccinate. This just wouldn't be the right fit for them. Whooping cough is really scary when you've got babies under 6 months. Then I think what we didn't get the vax and passed it to a 6 week old baby? I don't know how I could forgive myself. I know it still could happen since the vax isn't 100% but by getting it, I would at least know I did everything I could.
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Angelsj 10:57 AM 11-24-2014
Originally Posted by finsup:
Not only are we leaving the number of children up to God (so hopefully, lots of of babies around our home!) I typically start caring for children when they are just 6-8 weeks old. I'm not risking it with a family that doesn't want to vaccinate. This just wouldn't be the right fit for them. Whooping cough is really scary when you've got babies under 6 months. Then I think what we didn't get the vax and passed it to a 6 week old baby? I don't know how I could forgive myself. I know it still could happen since the vax isn't 100% but by getting it, I would at least know I did everything I could.
I am only going to say this once more, then I am going to drop it. You are certainly welcome to raise/ vaccinate your own, and run your business any way you like. But if you believe getting people vaccinated is protecting your babies, you are WRONG. A vaccinated person can carry pertussis and pass it along to babies. Being vaccinated against pertussis does not necessarily protect you from getting it, and it in no way protects the babies.

A vaccinated person (assuming the vaccination is effective for them) is not protected from coming in contact with the disease, and can pass it along to infants without actually showing symptoms of illness themselves as they fight off the virus.

The only true protection for little ones is cleanliness. Number one protection is hand washing. Do it often. Do it well. Teach all your children and parents to do it right.
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finsup 11:13 AM 11-25-2014
Yes, I am aware of that. Which is why I said this:
I know it still could happen since the vax isn't 100% but by getting it, I would at least know I did everything I could.
I may still get it, I may still pass it on. But because of having the vax, it is LESS likely that I would. At least by getting it, I wouldn't have the worry "oh man, I didn't get that shot. What if it would have prevented it? Just how I would feel personally.
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Unregistered 05:32 PM 02-14-2015
Originally Posted by Angelsj:
None of this addresses what was said in my post. A child who has been fully vaccinated is just as capable of passing pertussis to you as a child who is not vaccinated. Look carefully at this chart.
The CDC can say whatever they like in their FAQ, but their own fact sheets deny this. If you look at the chart at the bottom "DTaP vaccination history of pertussis cases" you will note very quickly that across the board, getting more doses of pertussis vaccine INCREASES your chance of getting pertussis.

Pertussis is a bacteria. This already decreases the effectiveness of a vaccine.
Maybe it doesnt address what you said in your post because they were responding to someone else
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Starburst 12:39 PM 02-15-2015
Originally Posted by craftymissbeth:
My concern business-wise is where have they drawn the line as far as discrimination goes in this situation? In Kansas, the only exemptions are religious or medical. If I deny a family care based on not vaccinating then is it religious or medical discrimination?
I think medical discrimination would be more if they could not get it for medical reasons such as being allergic to an ingredient in it (I had an ex who said he couldn't get the shot for cat allergies because he said it had eggs in it and he was also allergic to eggs). Most people who don't want to vaccinate are against it as a personal choice.

Most mainstream religions don't strongly restrict many preventative medications (aside from contreseptives), many missionaries actually try to raise money to get vaccines for children in undeveloped countries. Some religions may only say no to certain shots because of the ingredients in it or what it's for; I had one friend in HS who said her mom didn't want her to get the HPV prevention shot because "that shot is for ₩#0r3$" (her exact words, censored because I'm not sure if that word is allowed here).

And if they were seriously practicing and wanted to use that as an excuse then you can look into requesting a note from the leader of their church that says it goes against their beliefs (along with the name of the place of worship and the number of the church/temple/mosque), just like you would if they had a special religious diet that disagreed with food program; mostly to cover your butt if licensing gets involved (depending on your state).

Some smaller branch religions like Christian Scientists typically refuse all medical intervention and rely on prayer alone for physical healing (can vary by church), it would be hard to enroll them anyway since if there was a medical emergency the parents wouldn't want you to take them to a doctor, and you can get in trouble for neglect/abuse/child endangerment if you don't seek reasonable medical attention. Most families that strongly practice that probably avoid mainstream child care programs outside of their religion to avoid medical intervention and abuse/neglect charges (the right to practice religious believes only go so far in this country when it comes to child safety).
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Second Home 01:44 PM 02-15-2015
Last week we were asked by the state to check our records to see if all kids had the mmr vaccines ( as age appropriate). Then in the next sentence we were told we can not deny care if they do not have it because it would be illegal . They did not specify how it would be illegal though .
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LysesKids 02:21 PM 02-15-2015
Originally Posted by Second Home:
Last week we were asked by the state to check our records to see if all kids had the mmr vaccines ( as age appropriate). Then in the next sentence we were told we can not deny care if they do not have it because it would be illegal . They did not specify how it would be illegal though .
Because MD has the Religious exemption as well as a medical one ... they could be on an an alternate fax path too. http://www.nvic.org/Vaccine-Laws/sta.../maryland.aspx. Also If you take subsidy, or on the food program, it's considered illegal to deny care because you accept state & federal funds and the exemption doesn't require more than a note for religion, not proof ( there was a few court cases about it a long time ago)
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daycare 03:27 PM 02-15-2015
In California I was just told by licensing and child care law that it is against the law to refuse services to someone because they have a personal beliefs exemption. So this means I could be sued for saying I don't except non vax kids.


I would have to find another reason and be able to show proof. WHY I could not meet their needs or why we were not a good fit.

I could be on for trouble. I have 12 people on my wait list out of 47 that are all non vax and I can't use that as an excuse as to why I won't take them.

I officially hate my career choice.
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Blackcat31 03:33 PM 02-15-2015
Originally Posted by daycare:
In California I was just told by licensing and child care law that it is against the law to refuse services to someone because they have a personal beliefs exemption. So this means I could be sued for saying I don't except non vax kids.


I would have to find another reason and be able to show proof. WHY I could not meet their needs or why we were not a good fit.

I could be on for trouble. I have 12 people on my wait list out of 47 that are all non vax and I can't use that as an excuse as to why I won't take them.

I officially hate my career choice.
Why wouldn't you take a non-vax child/family?
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daycare 04:05 PM 02-15-2015
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
Why wouldn't you take a non-vax child/family?
It's not a matter of wouldn't.

So here is ca there are 3 legal excuses
1. Religious beliefs
2. Medical
3. Personal beliefs exemptions.
We can't deny entry regardless of their decision..

So those that choose to not vax simply because they don't want to we can't deny entry as long as they are willing to get required paper work filled out.

So the choice to not take non vax in my state is not applicable.
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NoMoreJuice! 04:28 PM 02-15-2015
I would never take an anti-vax family, because I like to do business with families who have similar viewpoints to mine. I think it's a total crock of poo that people are refusing to vaccinate their kids to "protect them" from autism. I simply do not do business with idiots, and I'd be quite happy to testify in court that that was my reason for denying a family enrollment in my daycare.
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Unregistered 04:36 PM 02-15-2015
http://www.tomcopelandblog.com/2013/...immunized.html

Maybe he has new thoughts on this?
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daycare 05:07 PM 02-15-2015
Originally Posted by NoMoreJuice!:
I would never take an anti-vax family, because I like to do business with families who have similar viewpoints to mine. I think it's a total crock of poo that people are refusing to vaccinate their kids to "protect them" from autism. I simply do not do business with idiots, and I'd be quite happy to testify in court that that was my reason for denying a family enrollment in my daycare.
So in ca from what the laws say in this document I just got it states that a family may sue you for discrimination.

I don't have that kind of money to fight people so it looks like I'm going to be trying to find an alternate reason WHY I can't/wont enroll these non vax families
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Starburst 05:52 PM 02-15-2015
Originally Posted by daycare:
In California I was just told by licensing and child care law that it is against the law to refuse services to someone because they have a personal beliefs exemption. So this means I could be sued for saying I don't except non vax kids.


I would have to find another reason and be able to show proof. WHY I could not meet their needs or why we were not a good fit.

I could be on for trouble. I have 12 people on my wait list out of 47 that are all non vax and I can't use that as an excuse as to why I won't take them.

I officially hate my career choice.

Originally Posted by daycare:
So in ca from what the laws say in this document I just got it states that a family may sue you for discrimination.

I don't have that kind of money to fight people so it looks like I'm going to be trying to find an alternate reason WHY I can't/wont enroll these non vax families
If you have a waiting list with over 47 people on it you can always justify to licensing that you don't have enough room and that the other families seemed like a better fit for your program, you're not legally required to give the families a reason why you chose other families over them (imagine if you had to tell a family you wouldn't take their child because they were acting like a brat at the interview).

I went to school in California and I remember when I was almost due for a booster (I think it was for tetnis, less than 10 years ago) in middle school they told my mom she had until a certain date for me to get vaccinated or I wouldn't be allowed to go back to school until I got it.
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daycare 07:35 PM 02-15-2015
Originally Posted by Starburst:
If you have a waiting list with over 47 people on it you can always justify to licensing that you don't have enough room and that the other families seemed like a better fit for your program, you're not legally required to give the families a reason why you chose other families over them (imagine if you had to tell a family you wouldn't take their child because they were acting like a brat at the interview).

I went to school in California and I remember when I was almost due for a booster (I think it was for tetnis, less than 10 years ago) in middle school they told my mom she had until a certain date for me to get vaccinated or I wouldn't be allowed to go back to school until I got it.
Of course that it is true. I can give any reason. But I can NOT Say that I don't take non vax or such. It would be discrimination.

Again they can do as they please as long as they are willing to have the proper documentation filled out.

If your mother would have came back and said I refuse to get that vax and here is the documentation to serve as exemption. Legally that can not force you to do it. You can file 1 of those 3 and they legally can't not make you vax.
I have been on the phone with childcare law CA and my lawyer. M
I'll tell you guys why in private section.
Let's just say the laws are unfair.
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Starburst 08:13 PM 02-15-2015
Originally Posted by daycare:
Of course that it is true. I can give any reason. But I can NOT Say that I don't take non vax or such. It would be discrimination.

Again they can do as they please as long as they are willing to have the proper documentation filled out.

If your mother would have came back and said I refuse to get that vax and here is the documentation to serve as exemption. Legally that can not force you to do it. You can file 1 of those 3 and they legally can't not make you vax.
I have been on the phone with childcare law CA and my lawyer. M
I'll tell you guys why in private section.
Let's just say the laws are unfair.
We didn't have anything against vaccinations, we were just broke and didn't have insurance back then.
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Blackcat31 06:40 AM 02-16-2015
Originally Posted by daycare:
It's not a matter of wouldn't.

So here is ca there are 3 legal excuses
1. Religious beliefs
2. Medical
3. Personal beliefs exemptions.
We can't deny entry regardless of their decision..

So those that choose to not vax simply because they don't want to we can't deny entry as long as they are willing to get required paper work filled out.

So the choice to not take non vax in my state is not applicable.
Originally Posted by daycare:
In California I was just told by licensing and child care law that it is against the law to refuse services to someone because they have a personal beliefs exemption. So this means I could be sued for saying I don't except non vax kids.


I would have to find another reason and be able to show proof. WHY I could not meet their needs or why we were not a good fit.

I could be on for trouble. I have 12 people on my wait list out of 47 that are all non vax and I can't use that as an excuse as to why I won't take them.
I officially hate my career choice.
I am still not understanding what you mean...

In your first post you said ^^ you could be sued for saying you don't accept non-vaxed kids...
Then you said you "could be in for trouble" since you have families on your waitlist that don't vax...and you can't use that as an excuse as to why you won't take them...

To me that implies you are now going to have to come up with another reason why you won't take them. I'm just asking why you won't take them.

If that isn't what you meant and you WILL take them when an opening becomes available, then I don't see how this law/reg even affects you.

If your state says they need to have xx reasons for not being vaxed and you have no issue with a family not being vaxed, then I am still not seeing how any of this is an issue.

Why would you need an excuse for those families? If you don't have space to take them, you don't have space to take them....I just don't see how that has anything to do with the law/reg you were told.
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Blackcat31 06:43 AM 02-16-2015
Originally Posted by daycare:
So in ca from what the laws say in this document I just got it states that a family may sue you for discrimination.

I don't have that kind of money to fight people so it looks like I'm going to be trying to find an alternate reason WHY I can't/wont enroll these non vax families
This post also infers that you wont take a non-vax'ed family...

I am curious as to why you wont accept a non-vaccinated child?
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Blackcat31 06:45 AM 02-16-2015
Originally Posted by NoMoreJuice!:
I would never take an anti-vax family, because I like to do business with families who have similar viewpoints to mine. I think it's a total crock of poo that people are refusing to vaccinate their kids to "protect them" from autism. I simply do not do business with idiots, and I'd be quite happy to testify in court that that was my reason for denying a family enrollment in my daycare.
I have my own personal beliefs and feel others have a right to theirs as well but this type of comment saddens me...

I am sure there are probably much nicer ways to say you don't agree with those who don't agree with you.
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NoMoreJuice! 06:49 AM 02-16-2015
Sorry BlackCat, you're right that I was offensive. I apologize for the wording. I will not apologize for fighting so hard against people who are making an illogical choice that threatens our entire society as a whole for their personal beliefs. Look how much damage Osama Bin Laden caused for the sake of his personal beliefs.
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Blackcat31 06:59 AM 02-16-2015
Originally Posted by NoMoreJuice!:
Sorry BlackCat, you're right that I was offensive. I apologize for the wording. I will not apologize for fighting so hard against people who are making an illogical choice that threatens our entire society as a whole for their personal beliefs. Look how much damage Osama Bin Laden caused for the sake of his personal beliefs.
I support ANYONE who has a personal belief they feel strongly about... I just feel like it negates the belief you are fighting for/standing up for when you add name-calling to the mix.

Thanks for addressing it....
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Unregistered 09:29 AM 02-17-2015
Originally Posted by SignMeUp:
But it's not really that simple. The immunization has still cut down the number of cases drastically from years before the immunization was available.
This isn't actually true if you examine statistics. Good sanitation and basic health practices drastically lowered these numbers before the vaccine was even introduced.
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Howl 09:42 AM 02-17-2015
I'm only a babysitter at the moment but I require all the kids I babysit to be immunized on schedule. The only exception is for immunocompromised kids. I don't accept personal exemption or whatever it's called in my state. I would never put kids at risk in my care. That's irresponsible.
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daycare 09:53 AM 02-17-2015
Originally Posted by Howl:
I'm only a babysitter at the moment but I require all the kids I babysit to be immunized on schedule. The only exception is for immunocompromised kids. I don't accept personal exemption or whatever it's called in my state. I would never put kids at risk in my care. That's irresponsible.
FYI what your doing is illegal and you could be found guilty of discrimination and can be sued by the parents. I myself am just learning a lot about this. YOu should check into childcare law website.
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sahm1225 11:21 AM 02-17-2015
Originally Posted by daycare:
FYI what your doing is illegal and you could be found guilty of discrimination and can be sued by the parents. I myself am just learning a lot about this. YOu should check into childcare law website.
I don't get why it's illegal. Is non vaccinating a protected class?
It's a personal belief.
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laundrymom 12:12 PM 02-17-2015
Originally Posted by sahm1225:
I don't get why it's illegal. Is non vaccinating a protected class?
It's a personal belief.
Someone could accuse you of religious discrimination. If they're religion forbid vax and you refused care.
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daycare 12:50 PM 02-17-2015
Originally Posted by sahm1225:
I don't get why it's illegal. Is non vaccinating a protected class?
It's a personal belief.
so from what I am being told by my lawyer is this..

we can not say that we don't take non vax children as this would be discrimination.

the only way we could refuse services is if they refuse to supply the required documentation for their reasoning.

Also, I am being told that in my state it is now being labeled personal beliefs exemption, no longer called religious beliefs exemption.

if you claim personal beleifs exmp then you would:

1. Parent must not only sign an affidavit, they must also submit LIC CDPH 8262, personal beliefs exemption to required immunization form filled out by an authorized health care practitioner licensed in the state of CA. (there is no more of the just sign the back of the blue card)

2. Medical exemption- a doctors written statement is required and must state which immunizations are to be exempt from.

so they have combined the religious and personal beliefs exemption and we can not use this as a reason to not provide care. Only if they refuse to provide the required documentation to file this status.

does that make sense? trust me I am having a hard time figuring this out myself.
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Leigh 12:59 PM 02-17-2015
It's not illegal everywhere. Some states allow daycares to make that choice for themselves, some don't, from what I understand. I do not have to accept non-vaccinated kids.
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Tin Blues 12:59 PM 02-17-2015
Depends on the state. Here in Montana there is no religious waiver or personal exemption for daycares. Once children are school age, Montana accepts both, but not daycares. All children have to have their shots, or have a schedule to get their shots (called a conditional attendance form), or have a medical exemption signed by a doctor. Licensing checks all vaccination records and the health department also comes every year and checks every child's shot records. We can be written up if any of our kids don't have their shots.

Providers also have to be up to date. I had to get an MMR before I became licensed even though I had measles as a kid.
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Crystal 01:00 PM 02-17-2015
This is law In Ca....whole document can be found at http://www.childcarelaw.org/ or here http://childcarelaw.org/wp-content/u...California.pdf

Must a child care provider enroll a child
who has an immunization exemption?

Yes, under laws that protect religious beliefs
and those that prohibit discrimination against
people with disabilities. California public
health regulations require licensed child care
providers to admit a child with a valid medical
or personal beliefs exemption unconditionally.7

Parents may file a complaint with Community
Care Licensing against any child care provider
who refuses to admit an unimmunized child
who has a valid exemption, and Licensing may
then take disciplinary action against that child
care provider.
Federal and state civil rights laws also protect
children who obtain an exemption due to
religion, disability, or medical condition.8
Therefore, a parent may sue a child care
provider and/or file a discrimination
complaint with the appropriate government
agency against a child care provider who
refuses to admit a child with a valid
exemption and thereby discriminates against
that child on the basis of religion, disability, or
medical condition. Such actions by the parent
of an excluded child could expose the child
care provider to significant legal costs.9
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daycare 01:02 PM 02-17-2015
thanks crystal I was trying to find that...
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Blackcat31 01:45 PM 02-17-2015
Sounds like the law provides a loop hole for those providers that do not wish to take a non-vaxed child: (the following was taken from the link provided by CFQI above)

How can child care providers avoid getting in trouble with Licensing or sued by parents?

Inform parents about immunizations.

1. Tell parents, both verbally and in your written contract, how you feel about immunizations and your legal obligations.

2. Upon request, explain the immunization exemptions and what is required to obtain them.

3. Explain that when there is “good cause to believe” that an unimmunized child has been exposed to a communicable disease listed in Health & Safety Code Section 120325, the child may be excluded from your child care until the local public health department decides that the child is no longer at risk of developing the disease.

4. Give parents credible, scientific literature on the benefits and/or risks of immunizations.
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daycare 01:56 PM 02-17-2015
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
Sounds like the law provides a loop hole for those providers that do not wish to take a non-vaxed child: (the following was taken from the link provided by CFQI above)

How can child care providers avoid getting in trouble with Licensing or sued by parents?

Inform parents about immunizations.

1. Tell parents, both verbally and in your written contract, how you feel about immunizations and your legal obligations.

2. Upon request, explain the immunization exemptions and what is required to obtain them.

3. Explain that when there is “good cause to believe” that an unimmunized child has been exposed to a communicable disease listed in Health & Safety Code Section 120325, the child may be excluded from your child care until the local public health department decides that the child is no longer at risk of developing the disease.

4. Give parents credible, scientific literature on the benefits and/or risks of immunizations.
BC I thought this too and am being told NO.
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Howl 02:44 PM 02-17-2015
Thank you for that info, wow.

What about caregivers? I've had a several parents (especially doctors and nurses) ask me if I have all of my shots. Is that legal?
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Unregistered 02:44 PM 02-17-2015
AND tell them they still have to pay, no matter how long they are excluded. OR just tell them you have a family that has seniority that has a schedule change and the spot is gone.
At the end of each interview I tell them I am still taking applications and I will call them and let them know if the spot will be offered. I know it sounds bad but make up an excuse.
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Starburst 03:07 PM 02-17-2015
Originally Posted by Howl:
Thank you for that info, wow.

What about caregivers? I've had a several parents (especially doctors and nurses) ask me if I have all of my shots. Is that legal?
Usually if your licensed there may be some shots or tests you are required to have (ik California requires current TB test for everyone who works/volunteers with children or the elderly because I needed it for working at a home daycare, doing student teaching with public schools, and volunteering at a retirement home/hospice but i havent seen anything in the regulations about TB tests in Oregon). It does seem that there are times when providers don't get all the same rights to privacy as their clients do. when you think about it providers sometimes use phrase's like "we treat your children as if they were are own" that's actually an understatement in someways because not all parents baby proof or provide healthy meals for kids like providers are required to do, in someways providers have to treat DCKs better then their own parents are legally required to treat them (unless they're in the system, the state isn't required to go to the parents house and make sure everything is safe before the baby could be brought home).

When I was still looking for a nanny job after I moved one mom asked me if I had the Tdap (it was for an infant and lots of parents of infants are seeking providers with the prostasis vaccine; some even want a provider who gets regular flu shots). Ironically enough, I only got it recently before that because I was overdue of a tetnis shot and was at the hospital for cellulitis (my mom for some reason thought I would get lock jaw from an infected bug bite) and we accidentally found out we had medical insurance. I didn't even think to get it for childcare jobs.
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