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Daycare Center and Family Home Forum>Am I Morally Or Legally Obligated?
frgsonmysox 02:05 PM 03-28-2013
Originally Posted by Country Kids:
Interesting Read:

http://drugs.about.com/lw/Health-Med...Whats-Not-.htm
I would not trust this article. It has morphine listed as oxycontin. Morphine and oxycontin are not the same.
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AmyLeigh 02:07 PM 03-28-2013
Originally Posted by frgsonmysox:
I answered your question. I didn't start taking these particular medications (and yes, they are heavy duty narcotics) without talking to multiple doctors, IBCLCs, and my childs pediatrician. Every single one of them agreed - the amount that enters my breastmilk is so minute, that it's STILL healthier and more nutritious than formula (which is full of a lot worse things than a minute dose of narcotics). I worked extremely closely with my OB, MFM, and pain doctor during each of my pregnancies to minimize risk and exposure to the baby, and never once had any of my babies born "addicted".
Ladies, please read before you get all worked up. She said that her doctors, LCs and pediatrician all agreed that the small amount of meds in the breastmilk did not negate the nutritive superiority to formula. Unless anyone here has done the same or more formal medical education and studies on this, I doubt we have a right to question it.
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frgsonmysox 02:14 PM 03-28-2013
Originally Posted by AmyLeigh:
Ladies, please read before you get all worked up. She said that her doctors, LCs and pediatrician all agreed that the small amount of meds in the breastmilk did not negate the nutritive superiority to formula. Unless anyone here has done the same or more formal medical education and studies on this, I doubt we have a right to question it.
Thank you A different mother in my shoes may have chosen a different path. It doesn't make either of us wrong. My doctors are all perfectly fine with me nursing, not a single one has ever encouraged me to stop.
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Crystal 02:16 PM 03-28-2013
Originally Posted by frgsonmysox:
As kellymom.com is the leading breastfeeding website I'm not sure why you are so scared of looking at it.

http://kellymom.com/bf/can-i-breastf...ved-meds/#Pain
I opened it and started getting multiple pop ups and that is WITH a pop up blocker.
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Crystal 02:21 PM 03-28-2013
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
I don't have a dog in this fight but I DO like information.

From what I gather, morphine is the most common narcotic and prescribed pain killer out there and most the sites I found or came across say that taking morphine is not as dangerous as one would think when breastfeeding. As a matter of fact a common theme I am reading is that there are very few drugs that are contraindicated for breast feeding mothers.

"Morphine is excreted into human milk in trace amounts. Adverse effects in the nursing infant are unlikely. Morphine is considered compatible with breast-feeding by the American Academy of Pediatrics"
I am finding the same common theme. EXCEPT I am not seeing very many prescribed narcotics listed and all of them that I have seen indicate it is best to not take any narcotics at all while breast feeding (obviously) so it causes me to further question why it would be considered more safe to breastfeed while using arcotics than it would be to formula feed.

It just seems odd to me.
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Crystal 02:26 PM 03-28-2013
Originally Posted by frgsonmysox:
Yes, Morphine is one of the safest meds to take, narcotic wise, while nursing.

Also, for long term usage PURE narcotics are far more safer to use. I am actually unable to take any meds mixed with tylenol, motrin, or naproxen. Those three meds do more damage to organs than pure narcotics do.
This I can see. The liver and kidney damage from acetominophen in the vicodin my MIL took for YEARS ended up killing her last year.
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Crystal 02:27 PM 03-28-2013
Originally Posted by frgsonmysox:
Thank you A different mother in my shoes may have chosen a different path. It doesn't make either of us wrong. My doctors are all perfectly fine with me nursing, not a single one has ever encouraged me to stop.
Do you EVER worry about the long term effects though? I am not being critical, I truly want to know what you think about that.
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frgsonmysox 02:27 PM 03-28-2013
Originally Posted by Crystal:
I opened it and started getting multiple pop ups and that is WITH a pop up blocker.
I've never had an issue with kellymom. Perhaps its your browser? Kellymom is seriously THE leading nursing information site. Anyway, it has my medications on there and they are listed as safe. Also, you can search lactnet for many narcotics and read more. Dr. Hale is the expert in this area and he was asked and he agreed I was fine.

Originally Posted by Crystal:
I am finding the same common theme. EXCEPT I am not seeing very many prescribed narcotics listed and all of them that I have seen indicate it is best to not take any narcotics at all while breast feeding (obviously) so it causes me to further question why it would be considered more safe to breastfeed while using arcotics than it would be to formula feed.

It just seems odd to me.
I've listed plenty of things that say so. I've also posted links that say that it's hard to get someone to say that outright for fear of a lawsuit. My doctors know I'm educated and won't blame them for something, and perhaps thats why they are more open and honest about my medications.

And for the record, I also have OCD (diagnosed not pretend). I take meds for that too. Still safe for me to nurse.
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CedarCreek 02:32 PM 03-28-2013
Frogs, if you like I can pull a quote from you on the naked chick breast feeding thread.

I'm going to paraphrase. "I'm not doing it for attention. I'm being a good Mom." That's obviously not exactly what was said but i'm on my phone and i'm not going to go pull it off of the other thread.

Can you see how that implies that if you don't breast feed, you are not a good Mom? Coupling that with you basically saying that formula is crap and now YOU seem like the narrow minded one.

I love debates. I don't love when people can't open their minds enough to understand another opinion.
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NeedaVaca 02:36 PM 03-28-2013
L1 (safest)
L2 (safer)
L3 (moderately safe)
L4 (possibly hazardous)
L5 (contraindicated)

So from what I understand the best you can do while breastfeeding and taking a substance is have one of the above associated with that drug. The best being L1 "safest". I don't see anywhere that it's "SAFE" to do this, I also think most of these studies aren't for long term users of the drug and long term breastfeeding as well. To each his own I guess. Personally for me I could not in good conscience breastfeed while taking a drug but that's just me, safest isn't good enough IMO

I also noted that none of your kids detoxed or went through withdrawals but aren't you still taking the medication? They wouldn't withdrawal until you are done taking meds or they are done breastfeeding right?
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Country Kids 02:37 PM 03-28-2013
Being totally serious here but I do have a question.

Why if its so safe to BF while using these medications, do most if not all medications say "If you are BF, please check with your doctor before taking?"

If its safe and very minimal amounts pass through the milk, why would a person really be concerned? I'm think if a mom is on these types of pain killers that frgsonmysox is on and it doesn't affect her babies, is it really necessary to consult with mine? Why would it hurt mine if its not hurting hers?
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frgsonmysox 02:38 PM 03-28-2013
Originally Posted by Crystal:
This I can see. The liver and kidney damage from acetominophen in the vicodin my MIL took for YEARS ended up killing her last year.

A lot of people aren't aware of this, and neither was I at first. Being on pain meds for a long time, and having a disorder that most DOCTORS don't even know about requires one to become quite the expert themselves.

It took me getting into a leading pain clinic in one of the leading research hospitals in the country to find out that I literally killing myself by taking "safer medications". I fought against pain meds for 23 years. 23 years of pain, and when I couldn't take it anymore I relented. This is not my choice, I assure you.

Originally Posted by Crystal:
Do you EVER worry about the long term effects though? I am not being critical, I truly want to know what you think about that.
Of course. What parent doesn't worry that everything they do, say, feed, ect their child isn't going to cause issues down the road? I worry that my kids will end up with EDS as well - so we can't even use tylenol on them NOW as they'll build a tolerance up and need to move to narcotics more quickly. I worry that drinking the amount of caffeine a day that I do will also cause harm to them. I worry that the few times I lose my cool will result in them sitting in a therapists office saying that I ruined their life. I have all the worries of any other mother. So I did what I do best. I researched and researched, endlessly, for over a year I researched. I spoke to multiple doctors, got second and third and fourth opinions. I contacted Dr. Hale, my IBCLC (which is different than an LC), a few other IBCLC's, a handful of pediatricians, my PCM, my pain med doctor and his collegue, my rhuem, my internist, my surgeon even. I have a slew of doctors who monitor me. Not 1, not 5, but about 12-15 or so every year. Every single one assured me that while nursing with no meds is BEST, nursing with my meds is BETTER than formula.
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just_peachy 02:41 PM 03-28-2013
Originally Posted by frgsonmysox:


Of course. What parent doesn't worry that everything they do, say, feed, ect their child isn't going to cause issues down the road? I worry that my kids will end up with EDS as well - so we can't even use tylenol on them NOW as they'll build a tolerance up and need to move to narcotics more quickly. I worry that drinking the amount of caffeine a day that I do will also cause harm to them. I worry that the few times I lose my cool will result in them sitting in a therapists office saying that I ruined their life. I have all the worries of any other mother. So I did what I do best. .
Word to that.
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frgsonmysox 02:43 PM 03-28-2013
Originally Posted by CedarCreek:
Frogs, if you like I can pull a quote from you on the naked chick breast feeding thread.

I'm going to paraphrase. "I'm not doing it for attention. I'm being a good Mom." That's obviously not exactly what was said but i'm on my phone and i'm not going to go pull it off of the other thread.

Can you see how that implies that if you don't breast feed, you are not a good Mom? Coupling that with you basically saying that formula is crap and now YOU seem like the narrow minded one.

I love debates. I don't love when people can't open their minds enough to understand another opinion.
I was worried that quote would be misinterpreted. It was more of a response to people saying I nurse for exhibition. I don't. I nurse because I try my hardest to be the best mom *I* Can be. That doesn't mean that I judge others for what they do. I HAVE used formula before. I'd be quite a hyprocrite to say mothers are awful for doing so.

Originally Posted by NeedaVaca:
L1 (safest)
L2 (safer)
L3 (moderately safe)
L4 (possibly hazardous)
L5 (contraindicated)

So from what I understand the best you can do while breastfeeding and taking a substance is have one of the above associated with that drug. The best being L1 "safest". I don't see anywhere that it's "SAFE" to do this, I also think most of these studies aren't for long term users of the drug and long term breastfeeding as well. To each his own I guess. Personally for me I could not in good conscience breastfeed while taking a drug but that's just me, safest isn't good enough IMO

I also noted that none of your kids detoxed or went through withdrawals but aren't you still taking the medication? They wouldn't withdrawal until you are done taking meds or they are done breastfeeding right?
No, if you had read all the links mentioned it states on a few that the amount in milk is so so so small that it can't pass through enough to prevent withdrawal. In the same token, it can't get a child addicted either. Every so often we detox me off my meds too, because I don't want to have to move on to heavier meds like many of my EDS friends have. When this happens, it doesn't affect my kids at all.

Originally Posted by Country Kids:
Being totally serious here but I do have a question.

Why if its so safe to BF while using these medications, do most if not all medications say "If you are BF, please check with your doctor before taking?"

If its safe and very minimal amounts pass through the milk, why would a person really be concerned? I'm think if a mom is on these types of pain killers that frgsonmysox is on and it doesn't affect her babies, is it really necessary to consult with mine? Why would it hurt mine if its not hurting hers?
Lawsuits. Everything has a disclaimer, everything. Read ANY label, they all have disclaimers. This is to prevent you from suing if something SHOULD happen, even if its not related.
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bunnyslippers 02:48 PM 03-28-2013
I feel as though frgsonmysox is getting pushed around a bit. While I appreciate a good debate, I feel like questioning her medications while breast feeding is a bit out of line. She has doctors, and they gave her the go ahead to breast feed. She made the best choice for her and her family. The ability to make choices is what makes this world great!
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Country Kids 02:49 PM 03-28-2013
"Lawsuits. Everything has a disclaimer, everything. Read ANY label, they all have disclaimers. This is to prevent you from suing if something SHOULD happen, even if its not related."


So if you find out somewhere down the road that these medications really weren't safe for you to be taking while bf, would you turn around and sue the doctors for telling you it was ok.


I was admitted into the hospital one time while breastfeeding. The ER doctor/my doctor/the ped doctor took me off nursing because what ever they had me on wouldn't have been good for the baby. I was in for a kidney infection. A week or two after everything out of the system I was back breastfeeding. I really don't think I was on anything as potent as what you are on.
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Country Kids 02:50 PM 03-28-2013
OK, I just realized Nan isn't even discussing this anymore!

Has she changed her mind on everything?
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Crystal 02:51 PM 03-28-2013
Originally Posted by Country Kids:
OK, I just realized Nan isn't even discussing this anymore!

Has she changed her mind on everything?
I would bet that she is doing her research before replying
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CedarCreek 02:55 PM 03-28-2013
Thanks for clearing that up, frogs.

I appreciate it.
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just_peachy 02:56 PM 03-28-2013
I was just thinking, there was a day when people drank like fish and smoked like chimneys while pregnant! We're a resilient species, that's for sure.
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Country Kids 03:00 PM 03-28-2013
Originally Posted by just_peachy:
I was just thinking, there was a day when people drank like fish and smoked like chimneys while pregnant! We're a resilient species, that's for sure.
Many many people were born with learning disablitlies though from that. Alcohol Fetal Syndrom is the one I can think of right of the bat. Low birth rates, detoxing from the cigerattes/alcohol.
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just_peachy 03:01 PM 03-28-2013
Originally Posted by Country Kids:
Many many people were born with learning disablitlies though from that. Alcohol Fetal Syndrom is the one I can think of right of the bat. Low birth rates, detoxing from the cigerattes/alcohol.
Well I'm certainly not saying it is okay... this thread just made me think of that.
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nannyde 03:02 PM 03-28-2013
Originally Posted by Crystal:
I would bet that she is doing her research before replying
I am listening to the Supremes today. Justice Scalia is annoying me greatly.
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nannyde 03:06 PM 03-28-2013
Originally Posted by frgsonmysox:
Thank you A different mother in my shoes may have chosen a different path. It doesn't make either of us wrong. My doctors are all perfectly fine with me nursing, not a single one has ever encouraged me to stop.
Would you be allowed to donate milk to breast milk banks? Not privately but to a business or organization that donates or sells breastmilk from stranger to stranger?
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frgsonmysox 03:16 PM 03-28-2013
Originally Posted by Country Kids:
"Lawsuits. Everything has a disclaimer, everything. Read ANY label, they all have disclaimers. This is to prevent you from suing if something SHOULD happen, even if its not related."


So if you find out somewhere down the road that these medications really weren't safe for you to be taking while bf, would you turn around and sue the doctors for telling you it was ok.


I was admitted into the hospital one time while breastfeeding. The ER doctor/my doctor/the ped doctor took me off nursing because what ever they had me on wouldn't have been good for the baby. I was in for a kidney infection. A week or two after everything out of the system I was back breastfeeding. I really don't think I was on anything as potent as what you are on.
Most doctors are ignorant on what is safe to take while nursing, or are worried about a lawsuit and therefore anytime you are nursing you should speak to an IBCLC (NOT an LC), or a midwife, or even the LLL. They will not tell you its safe, again for fear of a lawsuit, but they will tell you "it's generally safe, there have been no issues". People are lawsuit happy these days!

Will I sue? No. I did my own research, I consulted numerous people, I feel I did everything I could in my power, as did my doctors, including reading numerous studies concerning the meds I'm on. I'm confident in what I take, to function. If there should be an issue down the road it will be hard to prove it was from narcotics, as we haven't seen any issues now. Plus, I'm not sue happy, and I trust my doctors. They know me well enough to know I'm not going to sue them, and they feel a lot more comfortable speaking openly and honestly with them.

Originally Posted by Crystal:
I would bet that she is doing her research before replying
I would hope any good debater would!

Originally Posted by just_peachy:
I was just thinking, there was a day when people drank like fish and smoked like chimneys while pregnant! We're a resilient species, that's for sure.
This is true. But medicine has changed a lot now, and the meds I'm on have been around since before my doctor began practicing. And he was a doctor in the vietnam war. He knows his stuff and has used these particular medications for a very long time. He has never had anyone who has had a child with adverse reactions. I'll take 50 years of experience as a pretty good indicator.


Originally Posted by nannyde:
Would you be allowed to donate milk to breast milk banks? Not privately but to a business or organization that donates or sells breastmilk from stranger to stranger?
Depends on the bank. Privately, if the person wanted. To a milk bank, it depends on the bank. Some, no, because they accept NO ONE on ANY medications, and others would. I don't see how this is relevant. A milk bank is more afraid of lawsuits than anything else, so they have to be very strict.
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nannyde 03:19 PM 03-28-2013
Originally Posted by frgsonmysox:
Most doctors are ignorant on what is safe to take while nursing, or are worried about a lawsuit and therefore anytime you are nursing you should speak to an IBCLC (NOT an LC), or a midwife, or even the LLL. They will not tell you its safe, again for fear of a lawsuit, but they will tell you "it's generally safe, there have been no issues". People are lawsuit happy these days!

Will I sue? No. I did my own research, I consulted numerous people, I feel I did everything I could in my power, as did my doctors, including reading numerous studies concerning the meds I'm on. I'm confident in what I take, to function. If there should be an issue down the road it will be hard to prove it was from narcotics, as we haven't seen any issues now. Plus, I'm not sue happy, and I trust my doctors. They know me well enough to know I'm not going to sue them, and they feel a lot more comfortable speaking openly and honestly with them.



I would hope any good debater would!



This is true. But medicine has changed a lot now, and the meds I'm on have been around since before my doctor began practicing. And he was a doctor in the vietnam war. He knows his stuff and has used these particular medications for a very long time. He has never had anyone who has had a child with adverse reactions. I'll take 50 years of experience as a pretty good indicator.




Depends on the bank. Privately, if the person wanted. To a milk bank, it depends on the bank. Some, no, because they accept NO ONE on ANY medications, and others would. I don't see how this is relevant. A milk bank is more afraid of lawsuits than anything else, so they have to be very strict.
can you name a breastmilk bank that would accept your milk? Not privately. One where you donate milk to a stranger.
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frgsonmysox 03:33 PM 03-28-2013
Honestly, not off the top of my head. I looked into donating milk years ago before I was placed on meds. Once I was on medication I decided not to pursue it. *I* didn't feel comfortable donating at that point. What if something went wrong? I'm not immune to feelings of doubt or fear, but I make that decision for myself, not someone else.

However, I've had many people inform me that their are banks and other nationally recognized milk exchanges that would accept my milk.

Milk banks are going away as the go to source for breastmilk since they pasteurize it and cause it to lose a lot of its nutrients. Many people are relying on private donation and places like milkshare. If a friend asked me for milk, which has happened, I donate because they know what I'm on and are fine with it.
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just_peachy 03:36 PM 03-28-2013
Originally Posted by frgsonmysox:
Honestly, not off the top of my head. I looked into donating milk years ago before I was placed on meds. Once I was on medication I decided not to pursue it. *I* didn't feel comfortable donating at that point. What if something went wrong? I'm not immune to feelings of doubt or fear, but I make that decision for myself, not someone else.

However, I've had many people inform me that their are banks and other nationally recognized milk exchanges that would accept my milk.

Milk banks are going away as the go to source for breastmilk since they pasteurize it and cause it to lose a lot of its nutrients. Many people are relying on private donation and places like milkshare. If a friend asked me for milk, which has happened, I donate because they know what I'm on and are fine with it.
Donating milk is like donating blood. Over-caution is protocol. My brother got a false-positive for AIDS the first time he donated blood (my poor parents nearly had a heart attack) and although it was false, he's never allowed to give blood again. I don't think whether or not she can donate her milk is a good indicator of the the safety of her decision in this case.
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frgsonmysox 03:41 PM 03-28-2013
Originally Posted by just_peachy:
Donating milk is like donating blood. Over-caution is protocol. My brother got a false-positive for AIDS the first time he donated blood (my poor parents nearly had a heart attack) and although it was false, he's never allowed to give blood again. I don't think whether or not she can donate her blood is a good indicator of the the safety of her decision in this case.
I can't donate blood, ever, because I lived in Germany in the 80's.
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just_peachy 03:44 PM 03-28-2013
Originally Posted by frgsonmysox:
I can't donate blood, ever, because I lived in Germany in the 80's.
Oops, I meant milk. And that's interesting! I remember there being a laundry list of exclusions, but Germany seems so benign to me. (I've never been anywhere, so I always just skimmed that part. )
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frgsonmysox 03:48 PM 03-28-2013
Originally Posted by just_peachy:
Oops, I meant milk. And that's interesting! I remember there being a laundry list of exclusions, but Germany seems so benign to me. (I've never been anywhere, so I always just skimmed that part. )

It has to do with exposure to mad cow disease. I was there from the age of 2 until 5 but I am banned for life. I never meet the weight requirements either, but man I do wish I could donate!

I am on the bone marrow list, and AM allowed to donate to that.
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Lavender 03:49 PM 03-28-2013
Originally Posted by nannyde:
Would you be allowed to donate milk to breast milk banks? Not privately but to a business or organization that donates or sells breastmilk from stranger to stranger?
I can't donate to a milk bank because I lived in England 24 years ago.

I'm sure my opinion doesn't matter since I'm new, but I don't see why this is still being debated when the mother in question is working closely with multitudes of experts regarding the subject. I'm not sure how random people on the 'net can know better.

I personally pumped for a preemie while on narcotics and blood pressure meds. The NICU and the leading high-risk perinatologists in San Diego assured us that the tremendous benefits of breastmilk for a preemie outweighed any impact from the minute amounts that could possibly enter the breastmilk.
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Crystal 04:08 PM 03-28-2013
Originally Posted by Lavender:
I can't donate to a milk bank because I lived in England 24 years ago.

I'm sure my opinion doesn't matter since I'm new, but I don't see why this is still being debated when the mother in question is working closely with multitudes of experts regarding the subject. I'm not sure how random people on the 'net can know better.

I personally pumped for a preemie while on narcotics and blood pressure meds. The NICU and the leading high-risk perinatologists in San Diego assured us that the tremendous benefits of breastmilk for a preemie outweighed any impact from the minute amounts that could possibly enter the breastmilk.
Yes, your opinion does matter

The reason it is being so heatedly debated with OP is because of her stance on other threads related to breast feeding. And, some of us really are interested in the FACTS about breastfeeding while taking narcotics around the clock. That's all.
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frgsonmysox 04:35 PM 03-28-2013
Originally Posted by Crystal:
Yes, your opinion does matter

The reason it is being so heatedly debated with OP is because of her stance on other threads related to breast feeding. And, some of us really are interested in the FACTS about breastfeeding while taking narcotics around the clock. That's all.

My stance on other threads about nursing being the best for your baby? Thats not a stance, it's a fact. I'm not what I've done or said to cause this to be so heated.
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Crystal 04:47 PM 03-28-2013
Originally Posted by frgsonmysox:
My stance on other threads about nursing being the best for your baby? Thats not a stance, it's a fact. I'm not what I've done or said to cause this to be so heated.
Nevermind. I am over DONE.
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Lavender 04:49 PM 03-28-2013
Originally Posted by Crystal:
Yes, your opinion does matter

The reason it is being so heatedly debated with OP is because of her stance on other threads related to breast feeding. And, some of us really are interested in the FACTS about breastfeeding while taking narcotics around the clock. That's all.
Well the facts as I know them regarding breastmilk and certain narcotics as per numerous medical professionals is that it is safe and the benefits that breastmilk provide over formula is more important that the relatively safe minute amounts that cross over to the milk. HTH

eta I was told that the blood pressure meds had more of an impact, but even that was considered to not be a risk. The mag. sulfate I was given prior to delivery had more of an impact on him than anything else, but again the benefits outweighed the risks for the choice to use that med.
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mamac 05:08 PM 03-28-2013
Originally Posted by frgsonmysox:
My stance on other threads about nursing being the best for your baby? Thats not a stance, it's a fact. I'm not what I've done or said to cause this to be so heated.
I am not attacking you, but from what I see I think it is because you seem to take offense at anything that is said that goes against what you believe, whether it was directed toward you or not. Yes, this thread has centered around you, but the other BFing threads were not about you.

Crystal wasn't attacking you when she replied to Lavender. All she did was mention the fact that your stance (belief, position) on the other threads, which is very opinionated and has every right to be, is the reason why this thread has gotten so heated. And the topic of the other threads isn't about breastfeeding nutrition. They are about covering/not covering up while breastfeeding in public.
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momofsix 05:56 PM 03-28-2013
Frgsonmysox. I may not (and do not ) agree with everything you say and do. But I DO think you are very knowledgeable about breastfeeding-and have probably done more homework on it than most of us here. I know that when I am truly passionate about something I might come across as condescending/thinking I'm better than those that don't think the way I do. I think most of us can come across this way when we're passionate about something-just because of the strong feelings we have.
I think that you have made the best choice for you and your family, and it doesn't sound like you made your decision lightly.
I also think it's wonderful that providers and parents on this forum can learn from you and your experiences, whether or not they agree. I also think there are those that don't want to learn and are simply trying to argue.
I breastfed 3 of my 6 girls. I do think breast milk is better, but do I think I'm a bad mom for not nursing the other 3? Not at all. Formula is simply an other option for feeding our babies. I don't think you're calling me a bad mom for that either, and am not sure where others came up with that.

Anyhow-didn't mean to start blabbing-I just wanted to say I think we're being a bit hard on frgsonmysox and I don't think she deserves the tough inquisition like questions and responses she's getting.
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bunnyslippers 06:01 PM 03-28-2013
I will say this again, with the utmotrespect to everyone's beliefs and opinions.

Breast feeding is great. Some women can't, for a multitude of reasons.

The breast feeding is the "BEST" choice for babies attitude is unfair and discriminatory.

If I had breast fed my children, they would have died. Their development has not been hindered by the use of formula. Please, do not make women who can't breast feed feel badly for that.

Statements that relay the message "I breast fed and that is the best option for babies" or anything along those line can really offend and hurt women who did not or could not breast feed.

We are all mothers, and we are all women who did what was best for our babies. My best is what I did. And I have amazing, healthy children. Being a rabid breast feeding advocate is hurtful and unnecessary.

Remember that not everyone has the same health or constitution. Don't be mean.
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Unregistered 06:13 PM 03-28-2013
Naturally breast feeding is the ideal nutrition for babies in most cases. For some like myself it just did not work out. I fully intended to, and knew it was the 'best' choice. When that choice was no longer an option I went with what I felt was the next best choice and pumped for nearly nine months. When my supply dwindled I moved onto formula. At the time I was very discouraged, now I'm just thankful we have so many options to pick from. If baby has a full tummy and is thriving & mommy is healthy and bonding with babe, then all is well.
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MotherNature 07:46 PM 03-28-2013
Just chiming in. Frogs, you've said things well & eloquently, as have some other commenters. I don't really have anything of value to add, but I definitely enjoy reading what you post, as our beliefs are extremely similar. For what it's worth, I don't think you were being condescending or a know-it-all at all. Granted, I get called those names as well, so that may not mean much, but just wanted you to know that I'm impressed with how you hold your own. I'm not one for conflict, especially because I get this righteous anger about things I'm passionate about that tends to make me less eloquent at times & frustrated. Anyway, have a great night!
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EntropyControlSpecialist 08:01 PM 03-28-2013
Originally Posted by MotherNature:
Just chiming in. Frogs, you've said things well & eloquently, as have some other commenters. I don't really have anything of value to add, but I definitely enjoy reading what you post, as our beliefs are extremely similar. For what it's worth, I don't think you were being condescending or a know-it-all at all. Granted, I get called those names as well, so that may not mean much, but just wanted you to know that I'm impressed with how you hold your own. I'm not one for conflict, especially because I get this righteous anger about things I'm passionate about that tends to make me less eloquent at times & frustrated. Anyway, have a great night!


Enjoying learning so much.
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Crystal 07:47 AM 03-29-2013
Originally Posted by MotherNature:
Just chiming in. Frogs, you've said things well & eloquently, as have some other commenters. I don't really have anything of value to add, but I definitely enjoy reading what you post, as our beliefs are extremely similar. For what it's worth, I don't think you were being condescending or a know-it-all at all. Granted, I get called those names as well, so that may not mean much, but just wanted you to know that I'm impressed with how you hold your own. I'm not one for conflict, especially because I get this righteous anger about things I'm passionate about that tends to make me less eloquent at times & frustrated. Anyway, have a great night!
When did anyone call her condescending or a know-it-all? I thought this was pretty civil.
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Blackcat31 07:58 AM 03-29-2013
Originally Posted by Crystal:
When did anyone call her condescending or a know-it-all? I thought this was pretty civil.
I can't remember if it was this thread or one of the several others about this topic but yes, someone did post that they thought the two main players in this (Nan and Frogs) were coming across as condescending and/or "know-it-alls".

I don't remember who said though, but it was said somewhere along the lines.
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Crystal 08:01 AM 03-29-2013
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
I can't remember if it was this thread or one of the several others about this topic but yes, someone did post that they thought the two main players in this (Nan and Frogs) were coming across as condescending and/or "know-it-alls".

I don't remember who said though, but it was said somewhere along the lines.
I must have missed it. Hard to keep up
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Blackcat31 08:09 AM 03-29-2013
Originally Posted by Crystal:
I must have missed it. Hard to keep up
Ya think?!?

I've been wracking my brain trying to come up with another controversial topic just to change the subject.

NOT because breast feeding isn't important but because you can only beat a dead horse for so long before it simply isn't productive anymore.

To date...I've received no less than 12 PM's asking if we can just lock the threads but I really don't see a reason to do so since everyone is staying pretty civil compared to other all out wars we've had here....

I guess people just need to stop clicking in to the thread if they don't want to read anymore.

So, what's the weather like where you are?
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mamac 08:16 AM 03-29-2013
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
So, what's the weather like where you are?
Actually it's totally awesome today! It's supposed to reach 60!!! My boys are finally able to enjoy the weather. Woo-hoo!!!!!!
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Crystal 08:31 AM 03-29-2013
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
Ya think?!?

I've been wracking my brain trying to come up with another controversial topic just to change the subject.

NOT because breast feeding isn't important but because you can only beat a dead horse for so long before it simply isn't productive anymore.

To date...I've received no less than 12 PM's asking if we can just lock the threads but I really don't see a reason to do so since everyone is staying pretty civil compared to other all out wars we've had here....

I guess people just need to stop clicking in to the thread if they don't want to read anymore.

So, what's the weather like where you are?


The weather is FAB-U-LOUS!!! Sunny and warm
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MotherNature 09:27 AM 03-29-2013
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
I can't remember if it was this thread or one of the several others about this topic but yes, someone did post that they thought the two main players in this (Nan and Frogs) were coming across as condescending and/or "know-it-alls".

I don't remember who said though, but it was said somewhere along the lines.
Yup, this ^ Thanks.
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frgsonmysox 10:42 AM 03-29-2013
I don't mind changing the topic I just won't back down or anything when asked questions. I'm pretty open and honest about myself. I wrote a blog post once on my frustrations with this line of questioning, but since then I have just accepted it as much as I can.

http://adayinthelifeofafreg.blogspot...bout-your.html

People are going to be curious, and I'm cool with that. I just hope those that do it for the only reason of being a jerk understand that I am aware, and I try to not to play into it with emotions.
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MyAngels 10:46 AM 03-29-2013
Originally Posted by Crystal:


The weather is FAB-U-LOUS!!! Sunny and warm
I'm always so jealous, jealous, jealous when you Cali gals talk about your weather . I'm a sun worshiper at heart.

It's not bad here in lovely central Illinois - sunny, about 50 degrees.
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My3cents 11:01 AM 03-29-2013
Originally Posted by just_peachy:
Interesting, I wonder if this is regional as well. Out of the 6 families I have, only 1 of them could so easily live off of one income that it's disturbing to me that they both work. Well, two, but the second one it is the mom that is the bread winner. The rest are barely scraping by on 2 incomes.
Anyone can down size and live off nothing, it is all the "stuff" that we feel we "need" to have or be left behind of the norm. It is a priority thing, What is important to people? We have learned to "need" stuff but anyway I won't go here.......I am just as guilty as the next person if that is even what you want to call it.
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Crystal 11:07 AM 03-29-2013
Originally Posted by MyAngels:
I'm always so jealous, jealous, jealous when you Cali gals talk about your weather . I'm a sun worshiper at heart.

It's not bad here in lovely central Illinois - sunny, about 50 degrees.
Will probably get to 70-72 here today. Good day for it too, we got our new fence up yesterday so we are starting our outdoor classroom renovations today! I am SOOOOO excited!!!!
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My3cents 11:36 AM 03-29-2013
Originally Posted by CedarCreek:
Frogs, if you like I can pull a quote from you on the naked chick breast feeding thread.

I'm going to paraphrase. "I'm not doing it for attention. I'm being a good Mom." That's obviously not exactly what was said but i'm on my phone and i'm not going to go pull it off of the other thread.

Can you see how that implies that if you don't breast feed, you are not a good Mom? Coupling that with you basically saying that formula is crap and now YOU seem like the narrow minded one.

I love debates. I don't love when people can't open their minds enough to understand another opinion.
I feel breast feeding is best for baby, but .......... nothing wrong with formula either. I have done both. What I don't like about BF is that if you join a BF Group in real life or even online, they are very strong on BF being the one and only way. My suggestion is to do what is right for you and your baby and you have those internal instincts too guide you- Listen to them. If I was taking heavy drugs for a health issue I think I would reconsider BF because there are some things we just don't know and if my baby can get gassy from me eating onions just as I would, well common sense is telling me that if I am putting something heavier in my system that is going to pass through the baby too. I don't like it when anyone needles one side of things and can't open their minds to understand another opinion. This being said its is all good- Do what is best for you and your child, and you have your Doctors by your side to help guide you-

Side not- It must be a challenge to have OCD along with the rest of your medical issues? Do your health issues slow down the OCD? Curious how these mix?
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My3cents 11:44 AM 03-29-2013
Originally Posted by frgsonmysox:
I was worried that quote would be misinterpreted. It was more of a response to people saying I nurse for exhibition. I don't. I nurse because I try my hardest to be the best mom *I* Can be. That doesn't mean that I judge others for what they do. I HAVE used formula before. I'd be quite a hyprocrite to say mothers are awful for doing so.



No, if you had read all the links mentioned it states on a few that the amount in milk is so so so small that it can't pass through enough to prevent withdrawal. In the same token, it can't get a child addicted either. Every so often we detox me off my meds too, because I don't want to have to move on to heavier meds like many of my EDS friends have. When this happens, it doesn't affect my kids at all.



Lawsuits. Everything has a disclaimer, everything. Read ANY label, they all have disclaimers. This is to prevent you from suing if something SHOULD happen, even if its not related.


well this is scary then, because when I read those I am thinking that it says, consult your doctor before taking if your bf--- is a warning to this could be bad for your baby. I am not thinking of Suing or being Sued- How sad is that-
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My3cents 11:47 AM 03-29-2013
Originally Posted by just_peachy:
I was just thinking, there was a day when people drank like fish and smoked like chimneys while pregnant! We're a resilient species, that's for sure.
yes but we know more as we learn more-
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MyAngels 11:47 AM 03-29-2013
Originally Posted by Crystal:
Will probably get to 70-72 here today. Good day for it too, we got our new fence up yesterday so we are starting our outdoor classroom renovations today! I am SOOOOO excited!!!!
I hope you'll post some pics when you're done . I'd love to see how it comes out.
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My3cents 11:54 AM 03-29-2013
Originally Posted by Crystal:
Nevermind. I am over DONE.
I was going to comment too.......
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My3cents 11:59 AM 03-29-2013
Originally Posted by momofsix:
Frgsonmysox. I may not (and do not ) agree with everything you say and do. But I DO think you are very knowledgeable about breastfeeding-and have probably done more homework on it than most of us here. I know that when I am truly passionate about something I might come across as condescending/thinking I'm better than those that don't think the way I do. I think most of us can come across this way when we're passionate about something-just because of the strong feelings we have.
I think that you have made the best choice for you and your family, and it doesn't sound like you made your decision lightly.
I also think it's wonderful that providers and parents on this forum can learn from you and your experiences, whether or not they agree. I also think there are those that don't want to learn and are simply trying to argue.
I breastfed 3 of my 6 girls. I do think breast milk is better, but do I think I'm a bad mom for not nursing the other 3? Not at all. Formula is simply an other option for feeding our babies. I don't think you're calling me a bad mom for that either, and am not sure where others came up with that.

Anyhow-didn't mean to start blabbing-I just wanted to say I think we're being a bit hard on frgsonmysox and I don't think she deserves the tough inquisition like questions and responses she's getting.

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frgsonmysox 01:39 PM 03-29-2013
Originally Posted by My3cents:
I feel breast feeding is best for baby, but .......... nothing wrong with formula either. I have done both. What I don't like about BF is that if you join a BF Group in real life or even online, they are very strong on BF being the one and only way. My suggestion is to do what is right for you and your baby and you have those internal instincts too guide you- Listen to them. If I was taking heavy drugs for a health issue I think I would reconsider BF because there are some things we just don't know and if my baby can get gassy from me eating onions just as I would, well common sense is telling me that if I am putting something heavier in my system that is going to pass through the baby too. I don't like it when anyone needles one side of things and can't open their minds to understand another opinion. This being said its is all good- Do what is best for you and your child, and you have your Doctors by your side to help guide you-

Side not- It must be a challenge to have OCD along with the rest of your medical issues? Do your health issues slow down the OCD? Curious how these mix?
It sucks. Truly. I think EDS and OCD are a cruel cruel combo of diagnosis's. I get caught in a never ended spiral at times. EDS causes me to have Chronic Fatigue, POTs, and energy issues. OCD causes me to have high anxiety, depression, and a need to perform rituals to assuage these.

When my OCD gets too bad it causes me to have my body start to flare up, which causes more fatigue, POTs episodes, and a depletion of energy. This makes it harder to perform my rituals, and to get my anxiety under control, which then further exacerbates the EDS issues, and so on.

If my EDS gets too out of control, same thing. I know have no energy, at what not to perform the rituals necessary, and it spirals.

It's a cruel joke, but I think EDS is too. I mean, seriously? A disorder that causes my connective tissue to be super weak?!
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Crystal 01:43 PM 03-29-2013
Originally Posted by frgsonmysox:
It sucks. Truly. I think EDS and OCD are a cruel cruel combo of diagnosis's. I get caught in a never ended spiral at times. EDS causes me to have Chronic Fatigue, POTs, and energy issues. OCD causes me to have high anxiety, depression, and a need to perform rituals to assuage these.

When my OCD gets too bad it causes me to have my body start to flare up, which causes more fatigue, POTs episodes, and a depletion of energy. This makes it harder to perform my rituals, and to get my anxiety under control, which then further exacerbates the EDS issues, and so on.

If my EDS gets too out of control, same thing. I know have no energy, at what not to perform the rituals necessary, and it spirals.

It's a cruel joke, but I think EDS is too. I mean, seriously? A disorder that causes my connective tissue to be super weak?!
That sounds truly horrific! I am sorry that you have to deal with this stuff.

How does this effect you when working with children? I cannot imagine having these medical conditions and being required to "perform" all day, every day with a group of young children. Are you able to squeeze in rest for yourself when needed? I bet it is really hard when your husband is deployed and you are on your own with your own five. Do you have family nearby that can at least help you out and give you a break occasionally?
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spud912 04:44 PM 03-29-2013
Originally Posted by Crystal:
Will probably get to 70-72 here today. Good day for it too, we got our new fence up yesterday so we are starting our outdoor classroom renovations today! I am SOOOOO excited!!!!
We are already in the low 90's here in Arizona
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