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Daycare Center and Family Home Forum>When Another Provider Admits They Operate Illegally
finsup 08:22 PM 09-05-2016
So another provider, who's an aquantice confided in me that she is operating illegally in a few ways. Being over ratio, not paying taxes, and lying (but the parent "gave permission" ) to collect full time rate income from the state even though dcp is not sending the child full time and doesn't actually need full time care like the state believes she does.
Ugh!! This is what gives LEGALLY unlicenced providers a bad rep. How do I even respond? I don't want to respond in anger, but I can't in good conscience reply "oh that's great!" What would you do?
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organicdclady 08:55 PM 09-05-2016
I had an acquaintance tell me recently that she works at an illegal daycare. She told me that the place wasn't licensed because the parents "didn't want the provider to because then she would be obligated to take low income families"
I gave her a polite and informative lesson on how it works/why the provider is wrong/how the children are being put in danger and what the consequences would be if they were found out. She pretty much blew me off and I'm sure told people I'm a freak but I wouldn't have been able to sleep that night if I hadn't told it like it was.
I really don't know the right way to handle it. It is really a call it like you see it kind of situation. Obviously if your gut is telling you, call licensing and report.
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284878 09:11 PM 09-05-2016
Yep same here, I heard a person say that she was "babysitting, in home" She felt as long as she called it babysitting and not Daycare it was legal. I tried to explain that it was not and if caught she could go to jail. That sent her into a rage, yelling at me, telling me to mind my own business. A week later, I heard she was looking for a day care. Not sure what come of that, but I was not going to volunteer my day care.
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DaveA 05:41 AM 09-06-2016
I tell people all it takes is one angry parent, neighbor, or whatever to turn you in and you've got a ton of troubles. How I approach a lot of what I say depends on the person. Someone who didn't realize they had to be licensed (there's a lot of "information" out there that is way wrong) vs. someone who is intentionally acting outside the rules.
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finsup 06:01 AM 09-06-2016
Yeah, im a bit more frustrated this time around. I tried to help her start up her business, legally, professionally etc. She ignored all of it and is now having problems. I made sure to explain the law and what penalities could happen so she does "know" it, just doesn't think it applies to her
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Cat Herder 08:32 AM 09-06-2016
Anonymous
adjective
1. without any name acknowledged, as that of author, contributor, or the like:
an anonymous letter to the editor; an anonymous donation.

2. of unknown name; whose name is withheld:
an anonymous author.

3. lacking individuality, unique character, or distinction:
an endless row of drab, anonymous houses.

"It's illegal. Childcare providers are required by law to report any taxable income. So if your home daycare provider asks to be paid under the table, she's running an illegal business."

"Your daycare provider must give you her taxpayer identification number. Without it, you won't be able to claim childcare-related expenses when you file your income taxes or take advantage of a dependent care flexible spending account. (If your daycare provider doesn't volunteer the information, give her a copy of IRS Form W-10 and ask her to complete it.)"

"Keep in mind that the rules are different if you hire a babysitter or nanny. If you pay someone to care for your children in your own home, you're considered an employer and are required to file the necessary paperwork with the Internal Revenue Service."
"

"These underground operations may be attractive to parents because they are smaller and may be less expensive, but state officials say they are likely more dangerous."

"Unregulated childcare means no oversight, no checks and balances and no guarantees of properly trained staff. If they're choosing to operate illegally and not abide by the law, usually those people have something to hide,"



What does your mirror say?
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Mike 09:23 AM 09-06-2016
For the sake (and safety) of the children, I would report.
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daycarediva 10:11 AM 09-06-2016
I would report her for the subsidy alone. That's fraud and comes directly from tax payer dollars.
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sharlan 10:35 AM 09-06-2016
I was that provider for 10 years, over 20 years ago. I basically followed the rules without knowing them, stayed within limits, etc, just never applied for a license as I didn't know it was mandatory.

An acquaintance in my neighborhood and I were talking at the park one day. She came to my home to get ideas on how to set up. As soon as she got her license she reported me so we wouldn't be in competition. She lasted one year, I'm still going.

I wasn't offended that she reported me. She did what she felt like she had to do.
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Unregistered 10:40 AM 09-06-2016
Originally Posted by sharlan:
I was that provider for 10 years, over 20 years ago. I basically followed the rules without knowing them, stayed within limits, etc, just never applied for a license as I didn't know it was mandatory.

An acquaintance in my neighborhood and I were talking at the park one day. She came to my home to get ideas on how to set up. As soon as she got her license she reported me so we wouldn't be in competition. She lasted one year, I'm still going.

I wasn't offended that she reported me. She did what she felt like she had to do.
Did you get in any trouble when she reported you?
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laundrymom 10:54 AM 09-06-2016
She is committing theft and fraud.
She is allowing people who really need help to struggle because she's greedy.
I would absolutely report the fraud to the authorities. I also would inform the licensing team of the provider over ratios. She willingly told you.
I figure that if you know me, and know of my integrity, and you admit to being a greedy, thieving, fraudulent person, you should expect me to turn you in.

Originally Posted by finsup:
So another provider, who's an aquantice confided in me that she is operating illegally in a few ways. Being over ratio, not paying taxes, and lying (but the parent "gave permission" ) to collect full time rate income from the state even though dcp is not sending the child full time and doesn't actually need full time care like the state believes she does.
Ugh!! This is what gives LEGALLY unlicenced providers a bad rep. How do I even respond? I don't want to respond in anger, but I can't in good conscience reply "oh that's great!" What would you do?

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sharlan 09:19 PM 09-06-2016
Originally Posted by Unregistered:
Did you get in any trouble when she reported you?
No. When they came to inspect I only had 1 daycare child. There were 5 neighbor kids playing with cardboard boxes in my yard, but I wasn't responsible for them. I was told it was legal for me to have one child but if I had more I needed a license. They gave me an application and left.
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AmyKidsCo 09:56 PM 09-06-2016
Originally Posted by laundrymom:
She is committing theft and fraud.
She is allowing people who really need help to struggle because she's greedy.
I would absolutely report the fraud to the authorities. I also would inform the licensing team of the provider over ratios.
She willingly told you.
I figure that if you know me, and know of my integrity, and you admit to being a greedy, thieving, fraudulent person, you should expect me to turn you in.
This.

Plus she's taking children that could be going to you, or other legal and ethical providers.

Not to mention that it bugs me when people cheat on taxes because those of us who do pay have to make up for those who don't.
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LysesKids 10:12 PM 09-06-2016
Originally Posted by finsup:
So another provider, who's an aquantice confided in me that she is operating illegally in a few ways. Being over ratio, not paying taxes, and lying (but the parent "gave permission" ) to collect full time rate income from the state even though dcp is not sending the child full time and doesn't actually need full time care like the state believes she does.
Ugh!! This is what gives LEGALLY unlicenced providers a bad rep. How do I even respond? I don't want to respond in anger, but I can't in good conscience reply "oh that's great!" What would you do?
I personally hold my tongue & then call DHS about an illegal set up (yes, it has been proven to happen 2 times by me by people that are old school & not checking if laws have changed... both were closed down)...

I run legally & I make sure my policies online state as much; including what is considered legal or not in TN... hell, I had to prove to the manufactured home community that I was legally licensed exempt because my county requires the parks permission to be licensed. I had a brand new home set here so I made damn sure I was legal before opening.

Now I know also there are more illegal people working within 5 miles of me, but I worry about me & how I can be better and prove that running legal can be beneficial... I didn't get voted on City views best of the best for nothing - I have something to prove considering I am one of 5 homes going up against 45 centers
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Blackcat31 06:58 AM 09-07-2016
Originally Posted by laundrymom:
She is committing theft and fraud.
She is allowing people who really need help to struggle because she's greedy.
I would absolutely report the fraud to the authorities. I also would inform the licensing team of the provider over ratios.
^^ I agree with this ^^

Originally Posted by laundrymom:
She willingly told you.
I figure that if you know me, and know of my integrity, and you admit to being a greedy, thieving, fraudulent person, you should expect me to turn you in.
^^^ Totally agree with this! ^^^
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TomCopeland 08:10 AM 09-07-2016
I've written an article inspired by this thread: http://tomcopelandblog.com/caregiver...ting-illegally
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MyAngels 08:15 AM 09-07-2016
Originally Posted by finsup:
How do I even respond? I don't want to respond in anger, but I can't in good conscience reply "oh that's great!" What would you do?
I most likely would not respond to her at all. I would, however, report this to the various agencies that would be involved - here it would be DHS, the IRS and DCFS.

As PPs said, this is fraud and theft. Those are my tax dollars going to pay for the subsidies that she did not earn, and it would be my conscience that would have to live with it if anything happened to those children because she was "over ratio" and stretched too thin.

If more legally operating providers would take action in these situations instead of looking the other way, it might work to put a dent in those flagrantly illegal daycare operations.
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Cat Herder 08:50 AM 09-07-2016
Great article.

I'd also like to see something published about the fact that when horrible things happen in illegal daycare's the media simply refers to them as "home daycare" or "local childcare provider".

I know things happen in both illegal and legal settings, it would just be nice to have the actual data for both. Just once.
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finsup 08:52 AM 09-07-2016
Originally Posted by MyAngels:
I most likely would not respond to her at all. I would, however, report this to the various agencies that would be involved - here it would be DHS, the IRS and DCFS.

As PPs said, this is fraud and theft. Those are my tax dollars going to pay for the subsidies that she did not earn, and it would be my conscience that would have to live with it if anything happened to those children because she was "over ratio" and stretched too thin.

If more legally operating providers would take action in these situations instead of looking the other way, it might work to put a dent in those flagrantly illegal daycare operations.
This is what im thinking too. She's messaged me again, asking about rates for a new family which annoys me. It's like you're already over ratio! The answer to them is "I am full." The lack of honesty and integrity is a huge pet peeve of mine. She's not close enough to me to be my compatition but regardless, it's still wrong. I doubt any reply I give will change her mind :/ Didn't do a lot of good the last time I tried. Reporting is probably the best way to go, let the state handle it and maybe they'll impose some consequences that will change the way she does things. Or at any rate, they will at least have her on their radar.
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laundrymom 11:12 AM 09-07-2016
"Let me get back to you. I've got a call in to my licensing rep and the voucher caseworker and I'll let you know what they suggest the rate for a non licensed, over ratio, illegally operating provider who files fraudulent claims for voucher reimbursement is. "


Originally Posted by finsup:
This is what im thinking too. She's messaged me again, asking about rates for a new family which annoys me. It's like you're already over ratio! The answer to them is "I am full." The lack of honesty and integrity is a huge pet peeve of mine. She's not close enough to me to be my compatition but regardless, it's still wrong. I doubt any reply I give will change her mind :/ Didn't do a lot of good the last time I tried. Reporting is probably the best way to go, let the state handle it and maybe they'll impose some consequences that will change the way she does things. Or at any rate, they will at least have her on their radar.

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MyAngels 11:53 AM 09-07-2016
Originally Posted by finsup:
This is what im thinking too. She's messaged me again, asking about rates for a new family which annoys me. It's like you're already over ratio! The answer to them is "I am full." The lack of honesty and integrity is a huge pet peeve of mine. She's not close enough to me to be my compatition but regardless, it's still wrong. I doubt any reply I give will change her mind :/ Didn't do a lot of good the last time I tried. Reporting is probably the best way to go, let the state handle it and maybe they'll impose some consequences that will change the way she does things. Or at any rate, they will at least have her on their radar.
IMO you are on the right track with reporting this. If you've already tried talking to her about, she's obviously not getting it. I'd save any written messages she's sent about it, too.
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Josiegirl 11:58 AM 09-07-2016
Originally Posted by laundrymom:
"Let me get back to you. I've got a call in to my licensing rep and the voucher caseworker and I'll let you know what they suggest the rate for a non licensed, over ratio, illegally operating provider who files fraudulent claims for voucher reimbursement is. "
Lol Love it!
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Unregistered 08:04 PM 09-07-2016
I love how the true colors come out on threads like this. I always roll my eyes when certain posters complain about things happening to them or how they get taken advantage of for being nice. Before I get called unlicensed, I'm actually not only licensed but a licensed teacher finishing my MA. That's petty and snotty when we define who's a real teacher and who's not. :/

Honestly, besides for not caring, it's a waste of resources. There are children being abused and neglected everyday. Let CPS get to them instead of some granny with one kids over the line. Big corp actually do more shady stuff every day tax wise, but that's cool because it's legal.
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CalCare 08:17 PM 09-07-2016
What do you mean by true colors? I mean honestly, what do you mean? That these people think everyone should follow the law? That these posters think they should report when people don't obey the law? What exactly is the big revelation? Did you think the untrue colors that were previously displayed showed providers who wouldn't obey the law and wouldn't report law breakers? I'm truly confused by your comments. Which certain posters make you want to roll your eyes when they complain? I'm so confused lol what on Earth does the complaining about too nice and getting taken advantage of have to do with this topic of a person defrauding the government and breaking licensing regulations!?
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LysesKids 09:06 PM 09-07-2016
Originally Posted by Unregistered:
I love how the true colors come out on threads like this. I always roll my eyes when certain posters complain about things happening to them or how they get taken advantage of for being nice. Before I get called unlicensed, I'm actually not only licensed but a licensed teacher finishing my MA. That's petty and snotty when we define who's a real teacher and who's not. :/

Honestly, besides for not caring, it's a waste of resources. There are children being abused and neglected everyday. Let CPS get to them instead of some granny with one kids over the line. Big corp actually do more shady stuff every day tax wise, but that's cool because it's legal.
Honey... I have 2 degrees; one as an infant Montessori teacher, one in Criminal law (yes, it was my first degree, the teacher degree was secondary, not to mention 2 certificates for Post Partum Doula care that was gotten in between)... I have also been a substitute teacher in Elementary schools in my state (yes, you know what Qualifications are required there also, so I can say I am on the same level as you). I do not condone illegal care - regardless of what you think is right in your world - what is legally correct is what I go by because of my background

Maybe that is why parents are willing to pay me more more than the illegal lady down the street; and yes I get paid in full, in advance, by the month and my clients know they can take tax deductions
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Nurse Jackie 09:15 PM 09-07-2016
The fact that she's telling you all of her secrets lets me know she doesn't have any common sense at all. She deserves to be reported. I hate to see what common sense she uses when caring for children.
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LysesKids 09:36 PM 09-07-2016
Originally Posted by Nurse Jackie:
The fact that she's telling you all of her secrets lets me know she doesn't have any common sense at all. She deserves to be reported. I hate to see what common sense she uses when caring for children.
Those of us that run legal have nothing to hide; we also can be voted for best of the best in our city... yep, I will find out at the end of the month if my home childcare beats out a few centers where I live
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Unregistered 10:46 PM 09-07-2016
Originally Posted by CalCare:
What do you mean by true colors? I mean honestly, what do you mean? That these people think everyone should follow the law? That these posters think they should report when people don't obey the law? What exactly is the big revelation? Did you think the untrue colors that were previously displayed showed providers who wouldn't obey the law and wouldn't report law breakers? I'm truly confused by your comments. Which certain posters make you want to roll your eyes when they complain? I'm so confused lol what on Earth does the complaining about too nice and getting taken advantage of have to do with this topic of a person defrauding the government and breaking licensing regulations!?
Of course you are confused. You follow the "laws" and some bs "curriculum" and think you are great. You let the other children BULLY each other in your care, because the children should solve their own problems. Maybe someone should call CPS on you for your confusion and letting children get bullied in your care. You can play Miss. Innocent and Offended all day. :/
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Unregistered 10:49 PM 09-07-2016
Originally Posted by LysesKids:
Honey... I have 2 degrees; one as an infant Montessori teacher, one in Criminal law (yes, it was my first degree, the teacher degree was secondary, not to mention 2 certificates for Post Partum Doula care that was gotten in between)... I have also been a substitute teacher in Elementary schools in my state (yes, you know what Qualifications are required there also, so I can say I am on the same level as you). I do not condone illegal care - regardless of what you think is right in your world - what is legally correct is what I go by because of my background

Maybe that is why parents are willing to pay me more more than the illegal lady down the street; and yes I get paid in full, in advance, by the month and my clients know they can take tax deductions
No, you're not the same as me. I've taught in PUBLIC school. Anyone can be substitute. Montessori isn't a license or degree. Put you and me in No where Kansas and who is going to be picked to teach kindergarten in a public school? Not you, Miss. Montessori Lawyer Obstetrician.
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LysesKids 04:55 AM 09-08-2016
Originally Posted by Unregistered:
No, you're not the same as me. I've taught in PUBLIC school. Anyone can be substitute. Montessori isn't a license or degree. Put you and me in No where Kansas and who is going to be picked to teach kindergarten in a public school? Not you, Miss. Montessori Lawyer Obstetrician.
I was an elementary sub in a public school before I trained for Montessori and in order to actually be Montessori trained you have to have at least a BA degree; do your research before you spout off. And no not everyone can be a sub either without a degree of some kind, at least not here... a Postpartum Doula is way far away from having a medical degree, it takes training, but in a different form... again do some research and stop hiding ... if you are such a great person, why unregistered?
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LysesKids 05:01 AM 09-08-2016
Sorry I mouthed off but people like this irritate me to no end... the un registered guest probably isn't even half my age lol. Have a great day everyone
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daycarediva 06:53 AM 09-08-2016
Is unregistered a poster logged out? I wish we could do away with unregistered completely. Drives me crazy.

Don't feed the trolls.

I have a BA in ECE, I would report anyone who is operating illegally. I'm not one for big government, but everyone should follow the laws.

This isn't just a grandma watching grandkids or neighborhood kids on the cheap, unknowingly breaking some rules. It is a woman blatantly breaking several laws, including felony level fraud and tax evasion. BIG difference unregistered. Maybe your feathers are ruffled because you're doing the same?
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Rockgirl 07:31 AM 09-08-2016
Originally Posted by daycarediva:
Is unregistered a poster logged out? I wish we could do away with unregistered completely. Drives me crazy.

Don't feed the trolls.

I have a BA in ECE, I would report anyone who is operating illegally. I'm not one for big government, but everyone should follow the laws.

This isn't just a grandma watching grandkids or neighborhood kids on the cheap, unknowingly breaking some rules. It is a woman blatantly breaking several laws, including felony level fraud and tax evasion. BIG difference unregistered. Maybe your feathers are ruffled because you're doing the same?
So hard, but right!
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Cat Herder 08:15 AM 09-08-2016
Originally Posted by daycarediva:
Is unregistered a poster logged out?
Admin can tell who the poster is.
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Cat Herder 08:35 AM 09-08-2016
Illegal and Legally Unlicensed are two different things.

There are variances allowed for special circumstances.

There are "related care" exemptions.

There are "no pay" exemptions.

There are "migrant care" exemptions.

There are "religious" exemptions.

There are more loopholes to legal exemptions than there are rationalizations to operate illegally.

Do the research, get creative, get legal. By doing so you get access to resources, training and tax write off's.

**** 0 stars is better than a conviction that prevents you from working with kids later. 0 stars still means that you meet all childcare licensing regulations. 1 star means going above and beyond.... The highest star rating generally means you are meeting some personal goal for self fulfillment. ***

With all the parents out there that still choose illegal care, obviously ratings mean diddly squat in your market. What is to loose??
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laundrymom 11:10 AM 09-08-2016
Lol. I must giggle at this.
Please understand I have the utmost respect for teachers in public or private schools, and for nurses in public and private practices, however, being either has no bearing on ones ability to be an early childhood educator.
It's a completely different ballgame.
Stop comparing them.
ECE is as individualized as any other kind of teacher and for the troll who is trying to get people to argue, lol. I just giggle.
I stand by my first response.
If you are stealing and I find out, I will turn you in.
If you are operating an illegal childcare, I will turn you in.
If you have a teaching background but are now a childcare provider you are no more qualified than anyone else. If you have a nursing background but are now a childcare provider, you are no more qualified than anyone else.

I have never understood why some people think they are better providers because they can make nifty lesson plans or give meds.

Neither have anything to do with ensuring the needs of early childhood are met.
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Blackcat31 11:14 AM 09-08-2016
Originally Posted by laundrymom:
Neither have anything to do with ensuring the needs of early childhood are met.
It depends on what your (general you) state's requirements are and how they define ECE.

Care is one thing.

Education is a whole 'nother ball game for some.
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Josiegirl 11:42 AM 09-08-2016
Every single thing children learn is part of their education, whether it comes from the mom and dad, their provider, the elementary school teacher or their best friend. We need to stay on the right track to teach these little ones honesty, respect, patience, empathy and compassion.

If a school teacher is calling their dcprovider 'two ton Teri' what is that teaching her dd? Just using that particular example because it was very recent on the forum.

We are all teachers, educators of some nature. I don't have a degree. Everything I have learned has been through hands-on experience and workshops.

I think far more important than a degree is a desire to help guide children into forming positive traits of acceptance, tolerance, wonderment, kindness. That child and I can open up the pages of a book and learn so much together. But first that child needs to feel loved and secure, feel the desire to learn(a depressed unloved scared child hasn't much room or time in her worried mind to learn anything).

Unregistered is rude; I wouldn't care what you taught or how well you taught it, sometimes a degree is merely a piece of paper to wave in front of people. Obviously you neglected to sign up for Tactful Kindness 101.

JMO
Ducking the tomato throwers now
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Josiegirl 11:47 AM 09-08-2016
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
It depends on what your (general you) state's requirements are and how they define ECE.

Care is one thing.

Education is a whole 'nother ball game for some.
Yes. And I hate how the government barges in and KNOWS exactly what the children need. We all know how well standardized teaching works with different learning styles and temperaments, different personalities and needs of children. Sorry, I detest pigeonholing; I feel that's what the government has always helped create.

Guess I need more chocolate in my life.
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laundrymom 11:50 AM 09-08-2016
Very true.

Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
It depends on what your (general you) state's requirements are and how they define ECE.

Care is one thing.

Education is a whole 'nother ball game for some.

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Blackcat31 12:05 PM 09-08-2016
Originally Posted by Josiegirl:

Unregistered is rude; Obviously you neglected to sign up for Tactful Kindness 101.
Agreed!

Originally Posted by Josiegirl:
Yes. And I hate how the government barges in and KNOWS exactly what the children need. We all know how well standardized teaching works with different learning styles and temperaments, different personalities and needs of children. Sorry, I detest pigeonholing; I feel that's what the government has always helped create.
Exactly!
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Best Practices 03:13 PM 09-08-2016
This is a health and safety concern and needs to be reported. Maybe the fact that this person confided in you is a cry for help. Also, as licensed providers we are mandatory reporters and have a legal responsibility to respond by reporting actions that endanger or put children at risk. In addition, the operating practice of unlicensed providers has a negative impact on those of us who are professionals and earn our living by providing childcare. Good luck and let me know how you respond.
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finsup 04:01 PM 09-08-2016
Originally Posted by Best Practices:
This is a health and safety concern and needs to be reported. Maybe the fact that this person confided in you is a cry for help. Also, as licensed providers we are mandatory reporters and have a legal responsibility to respond by reporting actions that endanger or put children at risk. In addition, the operating practice of unlicensed providers has a negative impact on those of us who are professionals and earn our living by providing childcare. Good luck and let me know how you respond.
Here, we can operate unliscesned if we care for 2 families or less. That's what I do. It doesn't make sense business wise for me to go through the liscensing process (and costs) when I don't want to expand. If I did, I would absolutely do it legally. I am determined to still provide quality care though and it fruesterates me so much when people don't. Or blow off laws and give parents, especially first time parents this is "what to expect" from home daycare in general

I think with this particular provider, she likes the idea of running a professional business but doesn't want to put the work and effort it takes to do it successfully. I spoke with a few other local providers and just asked if they knew anything about her in general. I didn't get good reports back. In addition to all the laws being broken, care is questionable, and not safe. I went ahead and made the report. All i can hope is that this becomes a learning experience for her.

Oh, and to the unregistered...I have taught Kindergarten in public school prior to this. We of all people should be VERY aware of how important the early years of a child's life is. Most illegal providers, at least in this area, are not "grandma caring for a few kids." Most here are people who provide cheap care, for as many kids as possible, often in unsafe, unclean, and overall questionable environments. I can't in good conscience turn a blind eye, I just can't. Provide legal care, or lobby to change the requirements for liscensing.
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Unregistered 05:17 PM 09-08-2016
Originally Posted by Cat Herder:
Admin can tell who the poster is.
They don't know who I am. They've banned me several times, but I keep coming back.
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Cat Herder 06:28 AM 09-09-2016
For lurkers and Parents: I think there is sometimes a confusion of what a mandatory reporter is and how it relates to illegal providers. The only reason you should report to child protective services is suspected abuse. Mandated Reporters cannot report to CPS anonymously. We are legally required to give statements and stand up in court and testify.

"Mandated Reporters are persons who, as a result of their profession, are more likely to be aware of abuse or neglect. Mandated Reporters are required by law to report cases of suspected abuse."

"The standard for reporting suspected abuse and neglect is "reasonable cause to believe" which means that mandated reporters need only a " mere suspicion" that abuse or neglect was committed."


Illegal providers (unless suspected neglect or abuse) should be reported to your local Childcare Resource and Referral Agency. This can be done anonymously. They do not have a swat team. They do not have the power to arrest anyone. They help you get legal. They offer training and resources. They also grant variances and exemptions. Granted, if a provider bows up and refuses to comply with state laws, they will take further action.

* Mine just delivered a semi truck full of furniture, art supplies and toys from a grant program. No, the hoops were not easy, but they actually delivered on their promise.
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renodeb 06:09 PM 09-14-2016
I knew a provider who would constantly go over ratio and then say it was a niece or nephew, and she had an above ground pool with a fence around it and the gate had a lock for when she needed to lock the gate and she would send the dc kids out unsupervised to swim. (her kids and the dc kids). Someone turned her in and she called wondering if it was me. It wasn't but wow, she tumbled right to that. According to our social worker the hard part is proving it. Our worker could never substantiate. If no body else had turned her in I would of. She was constantly cheating the system.
If you need to turn the person in to clear your conscience then do it. Other wise dont get dragged in.
Deb
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daycare 06:42 PM 09-14-2016
This is a hard call.....

I personally try to keep out of this kind of stuff. HOWEVER, I do agree that she is telling you for a reason.

Me, being me, I would try one last time to approach her and say hey, I would like to help you do this the right way before someone turns you in and you are left in a hot mess, what will you do if something happens to one of the kids while in your care??? You are going to go down in flames and I would hate to see that happen to you.

I know that sometimes how we say or words things can have a huge difference, and sometimes it won't matter at all.

You do what you think is best for you and this situation. If is still bugging you in a few days or you are loosing sleep over it, report it.

As for the Unregistered. other than knowing they are from the NY sate area, around Broadway street, there is not too much more that I personally can find about them. Maybe BC can, she's much better at this kind of stuff than I am.

Obviously the unreg is much smarter than us, because they keep finding a way to come back.

And we are so highly desired by this unreg, that they have nothing else to do with their lives than harass us uneducated daycare providers, who know nothing. what a life to have....

Just ignore them!
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Febby 06:59 PM 09-14-2016
Originally Posted by Cat Herder:
For lurkers and Parents: I think there is sometimes a confusion of what a mandatory reporter is and how it relates to illegal providers. The only reason you should report to child protective services is suspected abuse. Mandated Reporters cannot report to CPS anonymously. We are legally required to give statements and stand up in court and testify.

"Mandated Reporters are persons who, as a result of their profession, are more likely to be aware of abuse or neglect. Mandated Reporters are required by law to report cases of suspected abuse."

"The standard for reporting suspected abuse and neglect is "reasonable cause to believe" which means that mandated reporters need only a " mere suspicion" that abuse or neglect was committed."


Illegal providers (unless suspected neglect or abuse) should be reported to your local Childcare Resource and Referral Agency. This can be done anonymously. They do not have a swat team. They do not have the power to arrest anyone. They help you get legal. They offer training and resources. They also grant variances and exemptions. Granted, if a provider bows up and refuses to comply with state laws, they will take further action.

* Mine just delivered a semi truck full of furniture, art supplies and toys from a grant program. No, the hoops were not easy, but they actually delivered on their promise.
I've heard of child care workers here getting charged with neglect/abuse overly relatively minor (though 100% unacceptable) incidents, such as briefly leaving a classroom unsupervised, not realizing a child was missing for two minutes, etc. So if workers can be charged over those sort of incidents, then mandated reporter laws would still apply, wouldn't they? Though I'm not sure if they also charge illegal or home providers like that, since I've only ever heard of center workers getting charges like the above. Anytime I hear about illegal or home providers getting neglect/abuse charges, it's usually pretty clearly abuse/neglect.
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Unregistered 08:32 PM 09-14-2016
Originally Posted by daycare:
This is a hard call.....

I personally try to keep out of this kind of stuff. HOWEVER, I do agree that she is telling you for a reason.

Me, being me, I would try one last time to approach her and say hey, I would like to help you do this the right way before someone turns you in and you are left in a hot mess, what will you do if something happens to one of the kids while in your care??? You are going to go down in flames and I would hate to see that happen to you.

I know that sometimes how we say or words things can have a huge difference, and sometimes it won't matter at all.

You do what you think is best for you and this situation. If is still bugging you in a few days or you are loosing sleep over it, report it.

As for the Unregistered. other than knowing they are from the NY sate area, around Broadway street, there is not too much more that I personally can find about them. Maybe BC can, she's much better at this kind of stuff than I am.

Obviously the unreg is much smarter than us, because they keep finding a way to come back.

And we are so highly desired by this unreg, that they have nothing else to do with their lives than harass us uneducated daycare providers, who know nothing. what a life to have....

Just ignore them!
I'm not from NY, never posted from NY. How am I harassing anyone? Because I point out when people are wrong? Honestly, I get harassed and called names out because I don't want to be a lemming.
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MunchkinWrangler 11:06 PM 09-14-2016
Originally Posted by Unregistered:
Of course you are confused. You follow the "laws" and some bs "curriculum" and think you are great. You let the other children BULLY each other in your care, because the children should solve their own problems. Maybe someone should call CPS on you for your confusion and letting children get bullied in your care. You can play Miss. Innocent and Offended all day. :/
For the love of all that is good....what is your point?!?

It's one thing if you leave a statement that contributes to the conversation or a valid opinion....but what is truly the point of posting something like this?

It's so easy for people to sit behind a computer screen and spout off on whatever point you are trying to make. At the end of the day it's pathetic and shows lack of character.

That is all.
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Play Care 05:57 AM 09-15-2016
To further clarify mandated reporting - we have been told that we are only mandated to report what we observe/find during WORKING hours. There are some professions that are 24/7 mandated (I think police and social workers) but we are not.

So a friend telling you over coffee after hours that she's operating illegally would not merit a mandated report. Watching a mom at the grocery store lose it and beat her kids a$$ wouldn't mandate it (though common decency would)

Essentially you are only mandated for the children in YOUR care during your working hours.
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Mike 08:50 AM 09-15-2016
Originally Posted by MunchkinWrangler:
It's so easy for people to sit behind a computer screen and spout off on whatever point you are trying to make. At the end of the day it's pathetic and shows lack of character.
I've seen that a lot on many message boards.

Same as bullying. Now that we have the privacy of the net, a lot more bullying is going on, because the one doing the bullying doesn't have to be strong. They can hide. What they don't realise though, is that if there is sufficient reason, they can be traced. I read a news article last year about a teen who killed herself because of cyberbullying. The bully was a male in his 30's and was going through a proxy so he couldn't be traced. A week after the suicide, he was arrested and charged with 2nd degree murder.
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MunchkinWrangler 09:44 AM 09-15-2016
Originally Posted by Mike:
I've seen that a lot on many message boards.

Same as bullying. Now that we have the privacy of the net, a lot more bullying is going on, because the one doing the bullying doesn't have to be strong. They can hide. What they don't realise though, is that if there is sufficient reason, they can be traced. I read a news article last year about a teen who killed herself because of cyberbullying. The bully was a male in his 30's and was going through a proxy so he couldn't be traced. A week after the suicide, he was arrested and charged with 2nd degree murder.
I absolutely agree! People who feed off of making others feel bad about themselves should be held accountable for their actions. At the other end it is so important to have people also stick up for themselves and others as well as realizing that the things the person is saying they usually feel about themselves and it's a way of projecting some issues in their own life.

It's predatory in nature and shows that a person isn't very civilized or mature/lack of manners.
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Rockgirl 10:18 AM 09-15-2016
An unregistered started it with me on this board a year or two ago. No clue why....I hadn't, and don't, post anything confrontational. I honestly think I was randomly selected. Lol. The admins on here did a great job of taking care of it, btw.
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Ariana 11:42 AM 09-15-2016
Originally Posted by Unregistered:
They don't know who I am. They've banned me several times, but I keep coming back.


Congratulations??


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Unregistered 12:04 PM 09-15-2016
Originally Posted by Mike:
I've seen that a lot on many message boards.

Same as bullying. Now that we have the privacy of the net, a lot more bullying is going on, because the one doing the bullying doesn't have to be strong. They can hide. What they don't realise though, is that if there is sufficient reason, they can be traced. I read a news article last year about a teen who killed herself because of cyberbullying. The bully was a male in his 30's and was going through a proxy so he couldn't be traced. A week after the suicide, he was arrested and charged with 2nd degree murder.

This is a two way street. Maybe I should call the cops for all the mean things that were said to me. Maybe I should call CPS for the way CalCare lets other children get bullied in her care and has admitted so. I've never threatened anyone or harassed anyone. Harassing doesn't mean having a different opinion. However, I've been called names and told my opinion isn't valid. As I said, it's a two way street. I can also report you guys and have your locations traced for the way I am being treated. If you don't want people posting in this manner, remove the unregistered option, I have no desire to register.
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MunchkinWrangler 12:39 PM 09-15-2016
Originally Posted by Unregistered:
This is a two way street. Maybe I should call the cops for all the mean things that were said to me. Maybe I should call CPS for the way CalCare lets other children get bullied in her care and has admitted so. I've never threatened anyone or harassed anyone. Harassing doesn't mean having a different opinion. However, I've been called names and told my opinion isn't valid. As I said, it's a two way street. I can also report you guys and have your locations traced for the way I am being treated. If you don't want people posting in this manner, remove the unregistered option, I have no desire to register.
Why you gotta pick on Mike? He's a nice guy!
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MunchkinWrangler 12:40 PM 09-15-2016
Originally Posted by Ariana:


Congratulations??

My thoughts exactly!
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Michael 12:58 PM 09-15-2016
Originally Posted by Unregistered:
This is a two way street. Maybe I should call the cops for all the mean things that were said to me. Maybe I should call CPS for the way CalCare lets other children get bullied in her care and has admitted so. I've never threatened anyone or harassed anyone. Harassing doesn't mean having a different opinion. However, I've been called names and told my opinion isn't valid. As I said, it's a two way street. I can also report you guys and have your locations traced for the way I am being treated. If you don't want people posting in this manner, remove the unregistered option, I have no desire to register.

You are an interesting bunny. You haven't crossed over any legal lines yet on this board and you can do this dance and waste a lot of time hoping the IP trail.

I allow unregistered on this forum for several reasons and it has more to do with people being able to post things in private. Some don't want to be included in "another" database and I don't blame them. You are taking advantage of a free service and im sure you have better things to do with your time.
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Mike 01:08 PM 09-15-2016
Originally Posted by Michael:
You are an interesting bunny. You haven't crossed over any legal lines yet on this board and you can do this dance and waste a lot of time hoping the IP trail.

I allow unregistered on this forum for several reasons and it has more to do with people being able to post things in private. Some don't want to be included in "another" database and I don't blame them. You are taking advantage of a free service and im sure you have better things to do with your time.


About 10 years ago I had a visitor on one of my boards that kept going through new IPs to post and attack members, (not saying this one is attacking anyone), and no matter how often I blocked IPs and even ranges, I couldn't stop them. We all just totally ignored the posts, and after a couple weeks, they went elsewhere.
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Mike 01:11 PM 09-15-2016
Originally Posted by MunchkinWrangler:
Why you gotta pick on Mike? He's a nice guy!
Don't need to worry about me, but thanks for sticking up. I've had plenty of experience on forums dealing with all kinds of people. The poster wasn't attacking me, just giving his/her opinion. I'm guessing male because 90% of the problem posters I've ever dealt with were guys.
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TomCopeland 01:29 PM 09-15-2016
Originally Posted by Play Care:
To further clarify mandated reporting - we have been told that we are only mandated to report what we observe/find during WORKING hours. There are some professions that are 24/7 mandated (I think police and social workers) but we are not.

So a friend telling you over coffee after hours that she's operating illegally would not merit a mandated report. Watching a mom at the grocery store lose it and beat her kids a$$ wouldn't mandate it (though common decency would)

Essentially you are only mandated for the children in YOUR care during your working hours.
This can vary by state. In some states family child care providers are mandated reporters 24/7. Check with your licensor about this.
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DaveA 01:34 PM 09-15-2016
Originally Posted by TomCopeland:
This can vary by state. In some states family child care providers are mandated reporters 24/7. Check with your licensor about this.
I was going to comment that I've been told that IL considers you a mandated reporter regardless of if you see it professionally or personally.
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Pestle 02:34 PM 09-15-2016
Originally Posted by Play Care:
Watching a mom at the grocery store lose it and beat her kids a$$ wouldn't mandate it (though common decency would)
That's state by state. My state law is this:

Everyone in Tennessee is a mandated reporter under state law. Any person with reasonable cause to believe a child is being abused or neglected must, under the law, immediately report to the Tennessee Department of Children’s Services or to local law enforcement. The reporter can remain anonymous.

More in-depth explanation of the law is here: http://criminallaw.uslegal.com/manda...ing-tennessee/
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Play Care 03:52 PM 09-15-2016
Originally Posted by Pestle:
That's state by state. My state law is this:

Everyone in Tennessee is a mandated reporter under state law. Any person with reasonable cause to believe a child is being abused or neglected must, under the law, immediately report to the Tennessee Department of Children’s Services or to local law enforcement. The reporter can remain anonymous.

More in-depth explanation of the law is here: http://criminallaw.uslegal.com/manda...ing-tennessee/
Yeah it says on there that Tenn has the most in depth law for reporting. We don't. In fact we are given two numbers. The one to call for when we are acting as a mandated reporter and the regular number for anonymous calls. I want to say we were told we could only call the mandated line for instances we were legally mandated to report, all other calls went to the other line. I have to re-take the training shortly and it will be interesting to see if that's changed.
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MyAngels 04:29 PM 09-15-2016
Originally Posted by DaveA:
I was going to comment that I've been told that IL considers you a mandated reporter regardless of if you see it professionally or personally.
I was curious, so I looked it up. Apparently it only applies if it is a child known to us in a professional capacity:

"child care worker having reasonable cause to believe a child known to them in their professional or official capacity may be an abused child or a neglected child shall immediately report or cause a report to be made to the Department." (325 ILCS 5/4)

Obviously it should not stop anyone from making a report on suspected abuse or neglect.

I found it interesting that on the lengthy list of people that are mandated reporters is "homemaker."
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Unregistered 03:06 PM 11-22-2016
When my son was 1 he went to an unlicnsed daycare. Out of the 6 licensed daycares i interviewed, this lady was the only one i felt comfortable with. She had cpr, first aid, all the important certificates. But i dont think someone needs to be licensed to know how to care for a child. We arent required to take classes or have home inspections when we decide to have our own kids...
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Josiegirl 05:07 PM 11-22-2016
Originally Posted by Unregistered:
When my son was 1 he went to an unlicnsed daycare. Out of the 6 licensed daycares i interviewed, this lady was the only one i felt comfortable with. She had cpr, first aid, all the important certificates. But i dont think someone needs to be licensed to know how to care for a child. We arent required to take classes or have home inspections when we decide to have our own kids...
Maybe people aren't required to pass classes or have a home inspection to be a parent(not including foster parent because they have lots of hurdles to jump)but I bet we all know at least one parent who should have.

Years and years ago, I took care of kids without being registered. The parents didn't care and quite frankly, I did pretty much what I do now. Big difference now is, more paperwork, lots more training under my belt which has come in handy lots of times, we can take state subsidized kids and be part of the food program, we get tons of support from mentors and agencies, plus hey, it's legal now. May not matter to parents but it sure does in the eyes of the state.
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Jupadia 05:07 PM 11-22-2016
Yes I would report her at this point. From what you have said she knows that she is operating illegaly.
It's not a mater if she is unlicensed or not but that she is illigal. Depending on where your from an unlicensed daycare provider can operate legal. Currently I am a legal unlicensed caregiver. I could if I wanted to add extra kids in and be over ratio and then I would become illegal. But I don't (though last year I was allowed more kids then now laws changed and I now count my kids in my ratio). I don't have any one that comes and checks things out unless I have a complaint filled. But for any reson they were to come by I would be legal.
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284878 08:43 AM 11-23-2016
Originally Posted by Unregistered:
When my son was 1 he went to an unlicnsed daycare. Out of the 6 licensed daycares i interviewed, this lady was the only one i felt comfortable with. She had cpr, first aid, all the important certificates. But i dont think someone needs to be licensed to know how to care for a child. We arent required to take classes or have home inspections when we decide to have our own kids...


A legal day care can be licensed or unlicensed depending on the state. In MI you must me licensed to be legally running.
However in OP case, she is referring to a unlicensed day care that legally can expect state aid for care of a child but running illegally by not paying taxes and stealing from the government by charging when the child is not in care. Who knows what other risks she is will to take with the lives of the children in her care.
Hopefully the unlicensed day care you used ran legally, kept the children safe and paid her taxes.
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Tags:forum cycle, illegal, illegal daycare, illegal providers, illegally unlicensed
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