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  #1  
Old 05-28-2010, 08:31 PM
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Default At My Wit's End! This Behavior Has Got to Stop!

Any ideas welcome! This place is out of control. No matter what we do, nothing helps! We're are very consistent with time-outs when needed, but what else can we do besides time-out? We take away special times (example: giving them a 5 minute time out indoors while the others go out to the playground. We can't make it any longer or one person would be left by themself outside with all the other children) and anything else we can think of, but it doesn't phase them at all. They continue it no matter how consistent we are with the consequence. They hit, kick, pinch, bite, yell, walk on the tables, knock the toy kitchen over to stand on, throw all the toys in the containers all over the room, throw plastic child sized chairs across the room, refuse to help clean up (we take the toys away, doesn't phase them. They still find something to do, such as throwing a chair instead of a toy). Out on the playground a couple of them actually climb the chain link fence and get out. We make them go inside, doesn't phase them. Give them a time-out for it, doesn't phase them. Please don't place on the blame on the providers. We have a lot of experience in caring for groups of children and have never, ever had this kind of out and out chaos. We've discussed it with the parents of the two kids who seem to cause most of it. This summer, these two are going to be taken care of by a relative instead of coming to daycare. But it is so out of control with the other children, also, that I'm not sure we can end this in one summer. Another of the biggest trouble makers is the owner's son. But only recently. Before, he'd get into stuff and and refuse to listen at times, but was never even NEAR this agressive. We need major help with effective discipline. If we started terminating kids for this, we wouldn't have any kids left! I'm serious, every last one of them have started hitting, at the least. By the way, with some of them, it's nearly impossible to do time-out because they WILL NOT sit in the chair for anything. The only way to get them to sit is to physically hold them down, with them hitting, and pinching, and kicking at us the whole time. We can't do a hold down, I'm not even sure if it's legal. Besides that, it just makes the situation escalate even worse! But they're too big for a pack and play, and would climb out as fast as they can jump up out of a chair (I've had someone suggest that before). Even the youngest (just turned 2) knows how to very quickly climb out of the pack and plays.
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Old 05-29-2010, 04:27 AM
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This would be a bad situation, they would be terminated immediately!!! They probably have been terminated from other daycare providers as well!!! If I have tried everything I can think of, they would be gone!!!
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Old 05-29-2010, 07:34 AM
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I had a VERY aggressive, out-of-control, destructive, and abusive child. I worked with him for a couple weeks but had to let him go. Sadly, his behavior was rubbing off onto the other children. It took a couple months to correct the behavior in the other children, but it did finally calm down. I no longer have the patience to "work with" these children. It's not because I don't want to, it's because I cannot have one child "corrupt" all the other, well-behaved children. I would drop the "trouble-makers", the ones who originally started this, immediately. Then work with the rest, if possible.

I firmly believe that children who are that much out of control (not just mimicking other children), have some other problem such as hearing or learning disability (as an example). Some may be abused at home or witnessing abuse. Either way, they need help beyond our expertise. We are child care providers. We are not doctors, child psychologists, physical therapists, ENTs, etc. Ok, we do often wear those hats, but most of us lack the credentials to make an accurate diagnosis. Plus, we have ALL the children to worry about.

What do the parents say when you bring this up? Do they laugh it off? Do they act like they know, but have given up trying to correct the behavior? Are they also concerned? What do they parents do at home to try to curtain this behavior?
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Old 05-29-2010, 09:34 AM
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WHOA!!!!! This is utterly ridiculous. I cannot imagine working under those conditions day in and day out. Sounds like you need a whole new group....I would seriously consider starting fresh, or at least phasing out small groups at a time by advertising/interviewing and replacing children. If you cannot conduct tours/interviews during business hours due to the behaviors - which may scare off potential clients- I'd hold an open house on a weekend so that parents can see the program without the chaos.

On the other hand....

I have to say, when time out doesn't work, perhaps it is time to look at other methods of "discipline". Are you using redirection, limited choice, positive reinforcement, etc? Or are you always responding to children with scolding and mandatory time out?

.Also, It may not actually be a discipline issue.....I'd ask myself these questions-

How is the environment playing a role in the behaviors - is it under OR overly stimulating? I would sit and observe the children while they interact in the environment. Take notes so you know specifically how they are playing and using materials/toys, etc. Then I'd ask myself what I need to change to make it work for them, based on what I observed. Keep in mind that children may be spending 10-12 hours a day in this environment, which is not their home, and they need it to be comfortable and nurturing, in addition to educational and interesting

How am I responding to and interacting with children? Am I warm and supportive, or am I stressed out and snippy wth them? What am I doing to make our time together enjoyable?

Are there any outside resources? I'd look outside of the program for resources that may be helpful in resolving these issues.....check with your local R&R to see if they offer any assistance....our R&R will send someone to observe and set up a plan of action based on their observations - wether it be training for the provider or intervention/special needs services for the children, and they will provide resources to help meet the identified needs.

I want you to know that I am NOT saying that it's the provider at fault here....and, honestly, there have been times I have HAD to ask MYSELF the questions I have listed and realized that it was not JUST the children, but also how I behaved in response to them....and I have had to make changes to my own behavior, as well as my environment to make things better.

It is DEFINITELY the children, and they DEFINTELY need to change their behavior or move on - but I think the provider always has some role in the way the children behave....wether we like to admit it or not.
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Old 05-29-2010, 12:22 PM
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I had a VERY aggressive, out-of-control, destructive, and abusive child. I worked with him for a couple weeks but had to let him go. Sadly, his behavior was rubbing off onto the other children. It took a couple months to correct the behavior in the other children, but it did finally calm down. I no longer have the patience to "work with" these children. It's not because I don't want to, it's because I cannot have one child "corrupt" all the other, well-behaved children. I would drop the "trouble-makers", the ones who originally started this, immediately. Then work with the rest, if possible.

I firmly believe that children who are that much out of control (not just mimicking other children), have some other problem such as hearing or learning disability (as an example). Some may be abused at home or witnessing abuse. Either way, they need help beyond our expertise. We are child care providers. We are not doctors, child psychologists, physical therapists, ENTs, etc. Ok, we do often wear those hats, but most of us lack the credentials to make an accurate diagnosis. Plus, we have ALL the children to worry about.

What do the parents say when you bring this up? Do they laugh it off? Do they act like they know, but have given up trying to correct the behavior? Are they also concerned? What do they parents do at home to try to curtain this behavior?
I have certainly wondered (and looked up the signs on-line) if a couple of them might be autistic. The more I observe, the more I think so. But their parents would not be open to the idea, and would be highly offended if we mentioned anything. Another boy who is also causing a ton of problems (with bullying, throwing toys, refusing to listen, etc) was never a problem just a few months ago. He was the most helpful, obedient boy we had there. Then almost overnight, his behavior changed (like someone mentioned in another thread how their child made a 180 degree turn). We, nor the parents, can figure out what happend. But the behavior only seems to get worse. If we have time to think out a response when he gets into one of his moods, we can sometimes figure out a way to switch his thinking to something constructive. But what works one time doesn't work another and it wears us out trying to think ahead so fast, all day long. And that only works about 1/4 of the time. His parents have mentioned that it's worse when he gets tired. But good grief, he must always be tired! They have the same problem at home, and some of the other places he goes. I know he does better in a more structured environment, but with this chaos, we can hardly do anything structured! We're doing good to get them to simply wash their hands for meals and snacks.
We should have toys at ready access to them, but we've had to put the containers of little people, blocks, toy cars, etc up to prevent them from turning them into flying missiles, well aimed for another child. And one boy that I think may be autistic will take the containers and dump them all out, and throw them all over the room, and then the other toddlers join in and throw them around some more. And then the older ones take any toy close by and throw it at another child, just to have fun trying to hit them. So we put the toys up, not knowing what else to do (for safety reasons, and plain being sick of picking their toys up for them).
We've considered having someone in to observe the two we think may be autistic, but I'm almost afraid they'd see the chaos and get us shut down.
Also, we try to love on the children as much as possible and give positive reinforcement, but it's almost as if they take a "thank you for sharing" or "good job!" as their cue to misbehave worse.
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Old 05-29-2010, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by professionalmom View Post
I firmly believe that children who are that much out of control (not just mimicking other children), have some other problem such as hearing or learning disability (as an example). Some may be abused at home or witnessing abuse.
Or we have a generation of children who get to act horribly with their parents and in "public" with nothing of consequence happening to them. The only consequence we are allowed to exact is time out. Time out is a very ineffective technique. It's especially ineffective when it's limited to a couple of minutes and done out in the open where the child can still see and hear what is going on in the room. It means nothing to most children.

One of the worst possible adult responses to children misbehaving is distraction. Distraction does nothing but buy you the moment. This is why the OP isn't having any consistency when she is able to change their minds now and then. Distraction is a REWARD for bad behavior.

Nan
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Old 05-29-2010, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by nannyde View Post
Or we have a generation of children who get to act horribly with their parents and in "public" with nothing of consequence happening to them. The only consequence we are allowed to exact is time out. Time out is a very ineffective technique. It's especially ineffective when it's limited to a couple of minutes and done out in the open where the child can still see and hear what is going on in the room. It means nothing to most children.

One of the worst possible adult responses to children misbehaving is distraction. Distraction does nothing but buy you the moment. This is why the OP isn't having any consistency when she is able to change their minds now and then. Distraction is a REWARD for bad behavior.

Nan
I do agree with this assessment. When I was growing up, if I got into trouble with an adult (teacher, grandparent, aunt, uncle, etc.), I got in trouble with my parents. There was none of this, "(gasp) How dare you say such horrible things about MY precious little angel!?" Adults supported each other and understood that children misbehave and that misbehavior needed correction not defensiveness. It was part of the "growing up" process. Now, it is considered offensive to suggest to a parent that his/her child may have a real problem, which further escalates the issue because the treatment is delayed because of parental defensiveness and the resulting negligence.

Obviously, I do not spank or swat or use any discipline like that with my daycare kids, but I have noticed that many providers have mentioned that they do "swat" their own children from time to time. Now, I do not want a debate over physical punishment or not - it's irrelevant because it is illegal (at least in MI) in this industry. However, in a discipline course I took a few months back, they were saying that "time-out" was too harsh and bordering on abusive. What does that leave us? We keep getting told what NOT to do, which results in the situation such as the one the original poster described. Are we creating an environment where children (even very young children) are allowed to do whatever they want, regardless of how harmful or dangerous it is, simply because saying "no" becomes abusive or "too harsh"?

We are on a very slippery slope which seems like it will end with the inmates running the asylum. And how do you form a civilized society when you are caving into the weakest link (the youngest, most immature, most ignorant, etc.) of our society?

Why can't government stop telling us what NOT to do and just give us real useful tools and techniques THAT WORK! Of course, that just might put us back into the 1950's where a swat was considered the "responsible" course of action to correct behavior issues. (Again not saying whether it's right or wrong). I'm just pointing out that parents and caregivers did not seem to have a problem with this type of stuff as often until many or most of these discipline techniques were described as abusive.
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Old 05-29-2010, 04:00 PM
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I agree with both nannyde and professional mom. People are afraid to discipline kids now. It's ridiculous how much we, as a society, expect kids to figure things out on their own since parents aren't being allowed to be a guide anymore.

It's even harder in child care. I really feel for op. If I were in this situation I would probably terminate the worst offenders and work with the ones that are left. Having problems like this can really ruin the reputation of a daycare and maybe even ruin your business. Nobody is going to want to bring their children somewhere where the kids are going to be learning how to misbehave and be generally unhandleable. You are going to start losing clients and be unable to replace them.
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Old 05-29-2010, 04:04 PM
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I only use distraction and time-outs, but I agree with you, Nan, it usually doesn't work. I'm always looking for new ideas -- what methods of discipline do you use?
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Old 05-29-2010, 04:31 PM
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I do agree with this assessment. When I was growing up, if I got into trouble with an adult (teacher, grandparent, aunt, uncle, etc.), I got in trouble with my parents. There was none of this, "(gasp) How dare you say such horrible things about MY precious little angel!?" Adults supported each other and understood that children misbehave and that misbehavior needed correction not defensiveness. It was part of the "growing up" process. Now, it is considered offensive to suggest to a parent that his/her child may have a real problem, which further escalates the issue because the treatment is delayed because of parental defensiveness and the resulting negligence.

Obviously, I do not spank or swat or use any discipline like that with my daycare kids, but I have noticed that many providers have mentioned that they do "swat" their own children from time to time. Now, I do not want a debate over physical punishment or not - it's irrelevant because it is illegal (at least in MI) in this industry. However, in a discipline course I took a few months back, they were saying that "time-out" was too harsh and bordering on abusive. What does that leave us? We keep getting told what NOT to do, which results in the situation such as the one the original poster described. Are we creating an environment where children (even very young children) are allowed to do whatever they want, regardless of how harmful or dangerous it is, simply because saying "no" becomes abusive or "too harsh"?

We are on a very slippery slope which seems like it will end with the inmates running the asylum. And how do you form a civilized society when you are caving into the weakest link (the youngest, most immature, most ignorant, etc.) of our society?

Why can't government stop telling us what NOT to do and just give us real useful tools and techniques THAT WORK! Of course, that just might put us back into the 1950's where a swat was considered the "responsible" course of action to correct behavior issues. (Again not saying whether it's right or wrong). I'm just pointing out that parents and caregivers did not seem to have a problem with this type of stuff as often until many or most of these discipline techniques were described as abusive.
I like professionalmom posts

I wouldn't be upset if time out was banished. It doesn't work anyway. It's a measure of last resort at my house. If you limit it to the number of minutes of the age of a child it is completely ineffective. There's no point in doing something that has no real bearing on the child.

One of the problems with discipline is that we can't even try to share with each other what works. Providers aren't able to have real conversations about their techniques because anything short of giving the kid a bunch of lovin and cuddles and a plead to not repeat the action is considered abusive. It's one area of child rearing that we can't even use what did work from the generations before us because nothing short of petting the child is acceptable now. Anything that we do that isn't sunshine and roses is either specifically against state regs or is considered to harm the self esteem of the child.

The reason the kids in the OP's situation act like they do is because they can. I would have behaved that way as a child if the adults couldn't do anything about it. Most kids would. You will get a small number of kids who will natuarally be sweet and compliant but as time goes on that group is becoming smaller and smaller. If you don't have the children from the time they are babies you are going to be in the business of a lot of kids with a lot of behavior problems.

Another huge problem with todays acceptable discipline techniques is that they are simply too time consuming. If we are to "discuss" and "distract" and find ways around the child's behavior we have to have a lot of TIME for each child in each situation. My parents were able to do a quick NO or a quick swat on the butt or removing the child by making a child GO TO BED and stay in bed. Now there's nothing that the adults can do that is quick and stops the behavior. Now we must do a therapy session for every time the kid acts up. Most adults being paid to take care of kids aren't being paid enough and have a low enough number of children to devote that much of their resources to doing a therapy session to get behavior to change. We expect it now but nobody wants to pay for that. If the providers aren't being paid for that they won't do it.

It's getting worse. I have been doing this for three decades now and I can say without equivocation that the behavior of children has become markedly worse with each generation of kids. When you have kids who are ALLOWED to hit their mother, destroy property, harm themselves and others and their consequence is a two minute time out... you are going to have BIG problems. It doesn't work.. that's why it's getting worse. It's that simple.

I think one huge problem with discipline is the ability for adults to be honest with the parents. Not only can you not suggest there is anything wrong with the child but many parents don't even want to hear that their child is normal. We have a society now that believes that their child is "advanced", "really smart", and often "gifted". Normal is a slap in the face now. This is something that I did not see 10 years ago.

So when you have the parents believing their child is gifted and in reality the child has serious issues and is normal or even developmentally delayed you have NO common ground to unite and work on issues. It's BAD business to be honest. It doesn't "right" itself until the child goes to school.. free school.. the great equalizer. When no money is being exchanged the truth floats to the surface. Bit by bit the parent begins to see the truth of their child compared to others. The behavior becomes a liability to the public and generates societal changes like "zero tollerance" and "bullying policies". That's where we are now.

One other contributing issue IMHO is the diet of this generation. So many kids are living off of really bad nutrition from toddlerhood on. I think one of the main reasons I don't have behavior problems with my group is that they have excellent diets at home and at care. Their parents COOK for them and they eat healthy meals both at home and day care. Their bellies are full and their bodies are growing with the most excellent nutrition available. I could be wrong.. but I don't think so. I think nutrition is a HUGE factor in discipline and behavior.
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Old 05-29-2010, 04:56 PM
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I was a behavior specialist for our school district for 10 years before I needed a break and have now been doing daycare for almost 2 years.

The key is very easy.

1. Focus on the positive and ignore the negative as much as possible. If you have a kid being naughty find a kid that is being good and reward the kid being good. If a kid won't do what you want (sitting in timeout, cleaning up etc) offer painting or play doh to all the other kids. When the naughty kids tries to paint tell him no, he can participate as soon as he is done with what ever you asked him to do.

2. Reward baby steps. If the kid usually throws things during his temper tantrum and this time he only throws himself on the floor kicking and screaming, when he is done give him a high five because the did not throw anything. Make a big deal about it.

The hardest part is for you to remain calm, do not raise your voice and to ignore the negative behavior. Honest, this works every time. Sometime I have to get creative with my rewards. Find the one thing that the kid loves and use it.

Last edited by Michael; 05-29-2010 at 05:35 PM.
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Old 05-29-2010, 05:17 PM
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I have them sit in the time out room or the time out rug for younger ones. Yes, it doesn't really work!!!
For older ones, I take away something like going outside, doing a fun activity, etc. this seems to work better than anything!!
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Old 05-29-2010, 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Momma in MT. View Post
I was a behavior specialist for our school district for 10 years before I needed a break and have now been doing daycare for almost 2 years.

The key is very easy.

1. Focus on the positive and ignore the negative as much as possible. If you have a kid being naughty find a kid that is being good and reward the kid being good. If a kid won't do what you want (sitting in timeout, cleaning up etc) offer painting or play doh to all the other kids. When the naughty kids tries to paint tell him no, he can participate as soon as he is done with what ever you asked him to do.

2. Reward baby steps. If the kid usually throws things during his temper tantrum and this time he only throws himself on the floor kicking and screaming, when he is done give him a high five because the did not throw anything. Make a big deal about it.

The hardest part is for you to remain calm, do not raise your voice and to ignore the negative behavior. Honest, this works every time. Sometime I have to get creative with my rewards. Find the one thing that the kid loves and use it.
Good advice.
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Old 05-29-2010, 05:44 PM
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Can I just say, the following quotes are excellent:
Quote:
Originally Posted by nannyde View Post
I wouldn't be upset if time out was banished. It doesn't work anyway.
That's one reason I don't even bother with it any more. There is absolutely no point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nannyde View Post
If we are to "discuss" and "distract" and find ways around the child's behavior we have to have a lot of TIME for each child in each situation.
First, what on Earth is "distraction" or "redirection" supposed to do? It does not do anything to teach the child what (s)he did that was inappropriate or what the appropriate reaction or response would be. Let's call it what it is - Ignoring the behavior. Plus, how do you "right" the wrong when the "wrong" involved is that another child was hit? Ignore the behavior and redirect the wrong-doer? What does that teach the victim? That bad behavior gets a new, more interesting toy?
Second, how do you "discuss", "analyze", or "reason" with a 1 year old or 2 year old? Parents tend to think that their brilliant child has the capacity to reason and even feel empathy before 18 months. Truth - Not if they are normal! It is normal and healthy for these young children / toddlers to be selfish, egocentric beings. If they weren't, they would most likely have a serious medical or developmental problem. So, if it's normal to not have these skills until later, I repeat, how do you discuss, analyze, or reason with a very young child? Answer - you can't because they are not capable of it yet AND that's normal.

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Now we must do a therapy session for every time the kid acts up.
This is really funny! Refer to the "discuss", "analyze", or "reason" portion above. To conduct therapy requires these 3 techniques, which are not age appropriate for toddlers. Also, why do we need to do therapy for a child acting "like a child". That likes saying "let's have a therapy session to figure out why your favorite color is red instead of blue". Why? That's not abnormal. It just IS. Basically any therapy session would reveal the following: Was the behavior inappropriate? Yes. Was there some reason for the inappropriate behavior? Yes. What was that reason? (S)He was being a normal, healthy CHILD.
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Old 05-29-2010, 05:53 PM
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nannyde, I think you and I are of one mind on this. You really put all of this is great perspective. Your post was excellent and very well thought out and written.
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Old 05-29-2010, 06:09 PM
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nannyde and professional mom are sooo on target!
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Old 05-29-2010, 06:42 PM
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[quote=professionalmom;30545] First, what on Earth is "distraction" or "redirection" supposed to do? It does not do anything to teach the child what (s)he did that was inappropriate or what the appropriate reaction or response would be. Let's call it what it is - Ignoring the behavior. Plus, how do you "right" the wrong when the "wrong" involved is that another child was hit? Ignore the behavior and redirect the wrong-doer? What does that teach the victim? That bad behavior gets a new, more interesting toy? [quote]

When redirection is used correctly, it is a very effective tool in guiding children's behavior. You don't just tell a child to go do something else.....you get down to their level, tell them what they are doing is wrong, tell them why it is wrong and why you cannot and will not allow them to do it, and they have a choice: go do A or B or You need to A to move on to B. End of discussion. It DOES work, I use it all the time and I have a wonderful group of children who I truly enjoy spending my days with because they do not have lots of behavior problems.

I am not saying that there shouldn't be other methods of discipline, and I honestly feel to each parent his own - I would never judge a parent that chooses to use more traditional methods of discipline - but as a Child care Provider, who doesn't have the option of more strict methods, giving redirection a chance to work is an option.
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Old 05-29-2010, 08:50 PM
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When redirection is used correctly, it is a very effective tool in guiding children's behavior. You don't just tell a child to go do something else.....you get down to their level, tell them what they are doing is wrong, tell them why it is wrong and why you cannot and will not allow them to do it, and they have a choice: go do A or B or You need to A to move on to B. End of discussion. It DOES work, I use it all the time and I have a wonderful group of children who I truly enjoy spending my days with because they do not have lots of behavior problems.

I am not saying that there shouldn't be other methods of discipline, and I honestly feel to each parent his own - I would never judge a parent that chooses to use more traditional methods of discipline - but as a Child care Provider, who doesn't have the option of more strict methods, giving redirection a chance to work is an option.
If this works for you and your set of children, then great. However, I have tried this exactly the way you described and they often look at me like I'm an idiot. I can see how this would work for children 3 and up, or possibly for some 2 year olds. However, when we are talking 12-18 month old toddlers, they do not understand. Yet this is the main method given for this age group. Don't get me wrong. I do not use physical punishment. However, I do believe that different children need different methods of discipline. Even the same child may need different methods at different times and for different offenses.

If you look at different topics throughout history, society tends to spot an error and tries to correct it, but ends up over correcting it. The pendulum is constantly swaying from one extreme to another, always trying to find that happy medium. For child discipline, it was once too harsh and even abusive. Now we are so lenient, we are seeing that too creates problems. There has to be some middle ground somewhere.

Also, with the OP and her situation, from what I understood, she has tried all of these "alternative" techniques that are most common and it has not worked with this particular group. I'm sure she feels like she's is fighting a losing battle and the kids are completely out of control. I wish she had more options. But with all the laws and regulations, our (and her) hands are tied. Some people even think a firm tone is mentally abusive. Heaven forbid you raise your voice so you can be heard over the chaotic noise.

We need options for those children that are more strong-willed, for whom redirection and time-out does not work.
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Old 05-29-2010, 09:04 PM
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I often find myself wishing I was a bit more inventive when it comes to discipline. For example, I've known a couple for years now that has a wood pile on their property. They don't need the wood. It serves no purpose usually attributed to a pile of wood. It was there when they bought the property. Every once in a while, the wood pile will suddenly be in a different place. The kids explained it to me once. If they do something they are not supposed to do, their job is to move the entire woodpile from one place to another place. When I asked this couple about it, they said that it helps remind the kids that doing the wrong thing rarely gets you what you really want. It's kind of pointless - kind of like the woodpile. It also serves to remind them that doing the wrong thing often results in other people having to pick up the slack, do their job, or otherwise waste their time. Having the child "waste their time" moving a pointless woodpile reminds them that they've wasted other people's time. It's also a way of making sure that the child has to choose how long their punishment lasts. Accept the fact that you did wrong and have to pay the consequences and the job tends to go fast. Being resentful makes you drag your feet and makes the job go slower. This was a disciplinary tool they thought up in two minutes that they've used for years because it works. I wish I could come up with stuff that fast that actually works.
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Old 05-29-2010, 11:05 PM
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WHOA!!!!! This is utterly ridiculous. I cannot imagine working under those conditions day in and day out. Sounds like you need a whole new group....I would seriously consider starting fresh, or at least phasing out small groups at a time by advertising/interviewing and replacing children. If you cannot conduct tours/interviews during business hours due to the behaviors - which may scare off potential clients- I'd hold an open house on a weekend so that parents can see the program without the chaos.

On the other hand....

I have to say, when time out doesn't work, perhaps it is time to look at other methods of "discipline". Are you using redirection, limited choice, positive reinforcement, etc? Or are you always responding to children with scolding and mandatory time out?

.Also, It may not actually be a discipline issue.....I'd ask myself these questions-

How is the environment playing a role in the behaviors - is it under OR overly stimulating? I would sit and observe the children while they interact in the environment. Take notes so you know specifically how they are playing and using materials/toys, etc. Then I'd ask myself what I need to change to make it work for them, based on what I observed. Keep in mind that children may be spending 10-12 hours a day in this environment, which is not their home, and they need it to be comfortable and nurturing, in addition to educational and interesting

How am I responding to and interacting with children? Am I warm and supportive, or am I stressed out and snippy wth them? What am I doing to make our time together enjoyable?

Are there any outside resources? I'd look outside of the program for resources that may be helpful in resolving these issues.....check with your local R&R to see if they offer any assistance....our R&R will send someone to observe and set up a plan of action based on their observations - wether it be training for the provider or intervention/special needs services for the children, and they will provide resources to help meet the identified needs.

I want you to know that I am NOT saying that it's the provider at fault here....and, honestly, there have been times I have HAD to ask MYSELF the questions I have listed and realized that it was not JUST the children, but also how I behaved in response to them....and I have had to make changes to my own behavior, as well as my environment to make things better.

It is DEFINITELY the children, and they DEFINTELY need to change their behavior or move on - but I think the provider always has some role in the way the children behave....wether we like to admit it or not.
i agree 100%. if it's multiple children, there's something else going on IMO.

maybe they need more structured activities with more interaction from the adults - or more play time so they can run around and get rid of some of that energy.

talking about the issues during group time could help also. reading books about hitting, biting, etc. and talking about it - that could help.

let them know ur on the lookout for kids doing NICE things and act like it's the best thing in the WORLD when you do! they'll all start trying to be the one caught doing the "right thing."

i'm with crystal - it's not the provider's fault, but there has to be something that can be changed to solve the problem.
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Old 05-30-2010, 02:57 AM
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I often find myself wishing I was a bit more inventive when it comes to discipline. For example, I've known a couple for years now that has a wood pile on their property. They don't need the wood. It serves no purpose usually attributed to a pile of wood. It was there when they bought the property. Every once in a while, the wood pile will suddenly be in a different place. The kids explained it to me once. If they do something they are not supposed to do, their job is to move the entire woodpile from one place to another place. When I asked this couple about it, they said that it helps remind the kids that doing the wrong thing rarely gets you what you really want. It's kind of pointless - kind of like the woodpile. It also serves to remind them that doing the wrong thing often results in other people having to pick up the slack, do their job, or otherwise waste their time. Having the child "waste their time" moving a pointless woodpile reminds them that they've wasted other people's time. It's also a way of making sure that the child has to choose how long their punishment lasts. Accept the fact that you did wrong and have to pay the consequences and the job tends to go fast. Being resentful makes you drag your feet and makes the job go slower. This was a disciplinary tool they thought up in two minutes that they've used for years because it works. I wish I could come up with stuff that fast that actually works.
Brilliant technique.
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Old 05-30-2010, 04:21 AM
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[quote=Crystal;30549][quote=professionalmom;30545] First, what on Earth is "distraction" or "redirection" supposed to do? It does not do anything to teach the child what (s)he did that was inappropriate or what the appropriate reaction or response would be. Let's call it what it is - Ignoring the behavior. Plus, how do you "right" the wrong when the "wrong" involved is that another child was hit? Ignore the behavior and redirect the wrong-doer? What does that teach the victim? That bad behavior gets a new, more interesting toy?
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When redirection is used correctly, it is a very effective tool in guiding children's behavior. You don't just tell a child to go do something else.....you get down to their level, tell them what they are doing is wrong, tell them why it is wrong and why you cannot and will not allow them to do it, and they have a choice: go do A or B or You need to A to move on to B. End of discussion. It DOES work, I use it all the time and I have a wonderful group of children who I truly enjoy spending my days with because they do not have lots of behavior problems.

I am not saying that there shouldn't be other methods of discipline, and I honestly feel to each parent his own - I would never judge a parent that chooses to use more traditional methods of discipline - but as a Child care Provider, who doesn't have the option of more strict methods, giving redirection a chance to work is an option.
One thing I have learned over the years is that there are so many ways to do this job right. That's one of the great things about this career. Providers can have techniques that don't even resemble each other in any way but still end up with great kids.

My ways are very very different from yours. I don't ever use distraction. I don't get down on the childs level when I'm dealing with them. I always stand above them looking down with my arms crossed and with my facial expression matching my tone. I don't spend much time on what they did wrong and why it was wrong or why I can't allow it. I think the amount of attention on the child can become the prize for repeat offending.

I also don't praise "good" behavior. I expect good behavior. It is their job to behave well. When I "praise" it's for really good behavior. I praise the kid who's taken one of our expectations and added onto it .. taken it to a higher level than what we expect... THEN I go in for the "Kewl fool.. .I like"

I don't praise them for sitting properly at the table. I don't praise them for picking up toys. I don't do a "clean up" song when they clean. I don't praise them for taking turns. I don't praise them for doing their "chores". I don't praise them for sharing. I don't praise them for the quality of their school work.

What they get when they are doing it right is the opportunity to keep doing it right. That's the reward.

Just two weeks ago one of my nearly two year olds was cleaning up the blocks off of our duplo table. It was his job during clean up. The newly turned four year old saw him struggling with taking apart the structures the kids had built. We have a very large duplo collection so the structures are big and have many levels.

She could see he was trying to pull apart the bricks but couldn't do it. She walked over and offered her hand. He gave her what he was trying to do. She undid the bricks and put them BACK on the table.. not put them away.. but back on the table. She knew that I would not want her to DO his job but she wanted to help him in the part he was stuck on.

I've never had to explain to her WHY I don't want kids doing the work of the other kids. She intrinsically knew what I would want without a single explanation. Now THAT was praise worthy. That was a "good job little sweetie... thanks"

I keep my prompts to them as simple as possible and do not explain.

NO
Stop
Clean Toys
come over here
Sit down
Stay there
Easy
Be Sweet
Share
Blocks at the Block table
No cars on the block table
No climbing
No dumping
Slow down
Be careful
Wait
etc.

I try to keep the discipline down to the smallest number of words with the least amount of attention to the child. Less is more. I say each word promt with nonverbal sterness to match.

I don't worry about teaching them the "why" of doing or not doing something. That will come to them soon enough. I want them to figure out the why. In the meantime just my saying what I want is ENOUGH for them to do what I want them to do.

Once they are the recipient of the good behavior of the other kids following the same pattern of discipline they GET why. Once they are playing blocks at the table and another kid trys to run a car across it they fully understand why I didn't allow THEM to have cars on the block table. Once they get butted into by a kid moving too fast they understand why I have taught them to go slow or be careful.

It all comes in time. It doesn't need a lot of explanation. They are all the recipients of the technique and the beneficiaries of the techniques.

Do what I tell you to do.
Right when I tell you to do it.
Do it without hesitation and without equivocation.


I'm the leader of this family. I am the one who knows the right way to make it work. All I need from them is the acknowldegement that I am the leader and they will do as I tell them. They don't need explanations for why. They don't need praise for doing what they are supposed to do in the first place. They need rules, boundaries, and limitations given to them in simplistic words that little children from toddler to preschool age can understand and comply with easily. Their understanding of it and reward from it will come from repeated exposures and their daily minute to minute positive life experience.

And with this technique and careful direct proximal supervision at all times I have the most well behaved kids a provider could ever hope for. They NEVER hit each other. They never throw toys. They are never mean to each other in ANY way. I haven't had a bite in my day care in nearly 16 years. I have kids in my care who have been here for 6 years and never once hit or ever been hit. There is NO violence towards each other or the equipment EVER. I don't throw away five dollars a year in toys. They don't back talk us. They are very very respectful to the adults.

We don't lift a finger cleaning toys. They do it ALL. They all have chores in the house from the time they are 18 months old and they do them EVERY day. They are responsible for the care of the children younger than they are. Their job is to PROTECT the safety of the younger children. Their job is to show the younger children exactly what we want. When one is exhibiting undesirable behavior the one child in the day care who consistently does it right becomes their buddy. They stay teemed up until I see what I want.

I rarely have to have conversations with parents about ill behavior. If I do there is a PROBLEM and it better get fixed. The parents know that when I tell them something that is a problem that it is a PROBLEM and they need to get on it at home. I handle everything possible "in house" but if I can't solve it then the parents must join in with me to fix it. The sheer fact that I rarely say anything to them is enough for them to take me very seriously.

So... yes it's another way to do it than Crystal's way. It looks like it's about the polar opposite. But both end up with great behaving kids so there ya go.
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Old 05-30-2010, 12:55 PM
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I was a behavior specialist for our school district for 10 years before I needed a break and have now been doing daycare for almost 2 years.

The key is very easy.

1. Focus on the positive and ignore the negative as much as possible. If you have a kid being naughty find a kid that is being good and reward the kid being good. If a kid won't do what you want (sitting in timeout, cleaning up etc) offer painting or play doh to all the other kids. When the naughty kids tries to paint tell him no, he can participate as soon as he is done with what ever you asked him to do.

2. Reward baby steps. If the kid usually throws things during his temper tantrum and this time he only throws himself on the floor kicking and screaming, when he is done give him a high five because the did not throw anything. Make a big deal about it.

The hardest part is for you to remain calm, do not raise your voice and to ignore the negative behavior. Honest, this works every time. Sometime I have to get creative with my rewards. Find the one thing that the kid loves and use it.
This is what I practice in my home with my own and, will use the same in my dc. IT REALLY IS EFFECTIVE.
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Old 05-30-2010, 06:00 PM
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When redirection is used correctly, it is a very effective tool in guiding children's behavior. You don't just tell a child to go do something else.....you get down to their level, tell them what they are doing is wrong, tell them why it is wrong and why you cannot and will not allow them to do it, and they have a choice: go do A or B or You need to A to move on to B. End of discussion. It DOES work, I use it all the time and I have a wonderful group of children who I truly enjoy spending my days with because they do not have lots of behavior problems.
I use the "get down to their level" in the opposite situations. When a child does something really brilliant, really kind, really sweet, really insightful, really giving, really selflessly, really respectfully... that's when I get down on my knees and look at the eye to eye and tell them they rock my world

I reserve that for honoring the child.

It's very very effective.

When they are being corrected I stand above them. God made them smaller than us for a reason. They respond to being hoovered over just like many other animals in the animal kingdom. It's a sign of dominance and control. We are supposed to be their leaders. We are supposed to be in control.

It's a sign of weakness.. imho ... to discipline at their level. It's a sign of respect to bow down with them when they do extraordinary things. When they show me that they are evolving into universal thinking and universal actions.. then they get my respect and I "kneel" to them, say my appreciations for what they have done and promptly give them a "squeeze the stuffin out of ya" hug.

It's very very effective.
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Old 05-31-2010, 10:16 AM
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Also, with the OP and her situation, from what I understood, she has tried all of these "alternative" techniques that are most common and it has not worked with this particular group. I'm sure she feels like she's is fighting a losing battle and the kids are completely out of control. I wish she had more options. But with all the laws and regulations, our (and her) hands are tied. Some people even think a firm tone is mentally abusive. Heaven forbid you raise your voice so you can be heard over the chaotic noise.

We need options for those children that are more strong-willed, for whom redirection and time-out does not work.
Thank you professionalmom! You understand that we've tried all of the "alternative techniques that are most common", and it has not worked with our group. If anything, it just makes it worse. Distracting from bad behavior only seems to get them what they want. Attention. If we ignore it, they up the amps and go further with the misbehavior until we HAVE to step in and stop it or someone is going to be seriously injured. Only that, again, gives them the attention they wanted. If we try redirection where we tell them what they're going to do now (or that they can now choose to do a or b), they respond with a very stubborn no. If we continue to tell them to, it only gives them what they want. again. And we all know better than to argue with a child anyway. We try telling them what to do, instead of what not to do, because I've heard kids hear the last part of a sentence (so if they're running, instead of "No Running", you're supposed to say, "walking feet, please". It all seems useless. If we talk to a parent about how their child is hitting, their response is that they got it from the other child. It's like an epidemic, that spreads like wild fire! Someone said we're going to be losing kids soon because parents will start pulling. We realize this, that's what we're afraid of. That is, if someone isn't seriously injured first. The two of us included (some of the kids think nothing of it to smack or pinch us!) But no matter what we do, they do it again the next time.

Last edited by Michael; 05-31-2010 at 12:39 PM.
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Old 06-01-2010, 07:10 AM
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For the record, I do use those same techniques Nanny....I certainly command respect from the children I work with, and from day one, the expectation is set that they will behave, be polite and respectful, use manners, etc. I personally have very few behavior issues with my children, and when I do, it is dealt with quickly.....

I also do not praise children over every little thing, but if I have a child who is quick to hit, and he chooses to "use his words" rather than lash out, you bet I am going to acknowledge that and let him know that I am proud of him for making the right choice. And, when a child goes above and beyond normal expectations, you bet I am going to let them know I am proud of them., give em' a hug and a high five and make sure all the other children hear/see it.

I also do not see it as a "sign of weakness" (thanks for the pot shot BTW) to get down to eye level when I need to discipline a child. It is mutual respect, and in my experience you get the same effect (good behavior) as you do when standing over a child intimidating them and making them feel worthless....except with kneeling to eye level and speaking directly to them they get the message more clearly and tend to be respectful becaue they choose to, not because they are scared to piss me off.

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When they are being corrected I stand above them. God made them smaller than us for a reason. They respond to being hoovered over just like many other animals in the animal kingdom. It's a sign of dominance and control. We are supposed to be their leaders. We are supposed to be in control.


And to this I must say WOW! Sure we are supposed to be "in control" but you make children sound as though they are not even as worthy as my dog. I think there are much better ways to have control, and being overly controlling and intimidating is not better IMO.
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Old 06-01-2010, 08:00 AM
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I reserve getting down to the child's level for two things - 1. praising the child for something unexpected or especially praiseworthy and 2. teaching something new. When I teach something new, I get on their level so that they know that we can learn together, so I can see their face well enough to know that they are paying attention, and to see their face enough to know if they are getting it. This goes for things like learning colors, shapes, etc and it also goes for discipline when it's something I honestly don't think the child knew before. For example, one dcb grew up around bad words and used them because that's what he heard at home. I got down on his level and told him that those words were unacceptable while he was with me. I explained that I knew that he didn't know and so he wasn't in trouble, but that now that he knew the rules, he would be expected to follow them. I also explained that there would be consequences for not following the rules.

I think that there needs to be a clear hierarchy of control. Children should know that they are not in charge. I guess you could call that intimidation but I think of it as a way of allowing the children to feel comfortable knowing that someone is taking care of them. Children who know that someone else is in control are more free to explore, learn, and make friends because they aren't worried about not knowing where the boundaries are. Just my opinion.
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Old 06-01-2010, 08:33 AM
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I reserve getting down to the child's level for two things - 1. praising the child for something unexpected or especially praiseworthy and 2. teaching something new. When I teach something new, I get on their level so that they know that we can learn together, so I can see their face well enough to know that they are paying attention, and to see their face enough to know if they are getting it. This goes for things like learning colors, shapes, etc and it also goes for discipline when it's something I honestly don't think the child knew before. For example, one dcb grew up around bad words and used them because that's what he heard at home. I got down on his level and told him that those words were unacceptable while he was with me. I explained that I knew that he didn't know and so he wasn't in trouble, but that now that he knew the rules, he would be expected to follow them. I also explained that there would be consequences for not following the rules.

I think that there needs to be a clear hierarchy of control. Children should know that they are not in charge. I guess you could call that intimidation but I think of it as a way of allowing the children to feel comfortable knowing that someone is taking care of them. Children who know that someone else is in control are more free to explore, learn, and make friends because they aren't worried about not knowing where the boundaries are. Just my opinion.
And, I agree. BUT, I do not think you have to stand OVER/hover OVER a child to get your point across. As I said before, I do not do that, and the children here CLEARLY know who is "in control" Personally, I believe if you ever have to raise your voice you are the one who is "out of control". My group know the boundaries, respect those boundaries, and we have AWESOME days together.
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Old 06-01-2010, 08:55 AM
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I rarely sit, squat, or kneel when the dck are in my home unless I'm teaching them something. The kids don't feel like I'm hovering over them. It's more subconscious I think. Kind of like how powerful business people will assert their power by always sitting behind a massive desk and the chairs in front of the desk are smaller than the chair behind the desk so that even taller people will be shorter. Most people don't really notice the setup. They don't consciously feel inferior or small. It's just a way to establish right away who is in charge without constantly having to remind the kids who is in charge. I guess, for me, I think that a lot of discipline techniques are reactive instead of proactive. This is a way for me to establish some discipline before problems arise rather than just waiting for something to happen and then dealing with it. (Although there is that too). I don't know if I explained that well or not. I'm just saying that the kids don't feel bad or scared or intimidated. It's not something they really notice on a conscious level. I don't know if Nannyde handles it the same way.
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Old 06-01-2010, 09:06 AM
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[b] And to this I must say WOW! Sure we are supposed to be "in control" but you make children sound as though they are not even as worthy as my dog. I think there are much better ways to have control, and being overly controlling and intimidating is not better IMO.
I knew someone would go there and I knew it would be you.

How about this? I protect my children like a Mama bear. Now does that mean I treat human babies like bear cubs? YES and that's a good thing. Them Mama bear hoovers over her young when she is disciplining them too.

We DO have commonality between us and the animal kingdom.

There are MANY principles in the care of animals from one species to another that are alike. You took the "dog" shot because our society has a phrase we use to describe poor behavior or mean behavior as in "I wouldn't do that to a dog I didn't like"... "he treated me like a dog".

Snooooze
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Old 06-01-2010, 09:06 AM
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I rarely sit, squat, or kneel when the dck are in my home unless I'm teaching them something. The kids don't feel like I'm hovering over them. It's more subconscious I think. Kind of like how powerful business people will assert their power by always sitting behind a massive desk and the chairs in front of the desk are smaller than the chair behind the desk so that even taller people will be shorter. Most people don't really notice the setup. They don't consciously feel inferior or small. It's just a way to establish right away who is in charge without constantly having to remind the kids who is in charge. I guess, for me, I think that a lot of discipline techniques are reactive instead of proactive. This is a way for me to establish some discipline before problems arise rather than just waiting for something to happen and then dealing with it. (Although there is that too). I don't know if I explained that well or not. I'm just saying that the kids don't feel bad or scared or intimidated. It's not something they really notice on a conscious level. I don't know if Nannyde handles it the same way.
And, I think this is great, and very effective teaching methods. My response was more in regards to Nanny's method of Hovering over them, when I replied to you, it seemed that you were saying that is the best way....I see you mean it differently though. I also do not want anyone thinking that because of the way I "discipline" that I have out of control kids who do not know the boundaries.....they know them, they understand them, they respect them, I just employ different methods than many to get them to understand and respect them.
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Old 06-01-2010, 09:16 AM
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I think a lot of it depends on the group of kids we have. I noticed that once my problem family left, I started sitting a lot more when the dcks were here because the ones I have now behave and don't make a habit of pushing boundaries. They know who is in charge and don't try to take over. I don't have to be quite as vigilant so I've relaxed my stance. I think I must be a mix of your style and Nannyde's style.
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Old 06-01-2010, 09:35 AM
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Quote: Nannyde:
When they are being corrected I stand above them. God made them smaller than us for a reason. They respond to being hoovered over just like many other animals in the animal kingdom. It's a sign of dominance and control. We are supposed to be their leaders. We are supposed to be in control.
And to this I must say WOW! Sure we are supposed to be "in control" but you make children sound as though they are not even as worthy as my dog. I think there are much better ways to have control, and being overly controlling and intimidating is not better IMO.
I disagree with you Crystal. Okay, let's take it from the point of the dog. That works for me.

So, my dog gnarls and nips at a child. Do I get down on the dog's level, look in his darling eyes and with my sweetest of sweet voices say, "No, I don't like that. That's not nice"??

HELL NO.....Why? Because the dog won't react to that. Not because the dog is stupid, not because the dog wants to listen...because the dog thinks HE is the boss. And, until you show the dog otherwise that YOU are the alpha dog then he will continue to nip and gnarl.

Kids are no different. Kids constantly strive to control a situation. It's human nature. But is is also human nature for those older and more experienced to realize that boundaries and rules must be set for the young ones who don't understand the real dangers of the world.

Going back to the dog....if a child HIT another child I WOULD stand there hovering over him "treating him like a dog" because that works! There is NO question what my intent is when I stand there ABOVE a child - I am exerting my dominance. And quite frankly I'm okay with that. I'm okay with it because not only did I teach little Johnny that it is NOT okay to hit so he doesn't end up in a maximum detention centre one day, I also spared another child of being hit in the future.

And FTR....I LOVE my dog. So, I don't think it a "bad" thing to compare discipline techniques. Any child should feel loved if treated like I treat my dog. I'm serious.

There is a reason that 30 year olds push out babies and not the other way around.

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Nannyde: We DO have commonality between us and the animal kingdom.
Oh, now I get it.....THAT'S why they call me a "bitch"!!!
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Old 06-01-2010, 09:58 AM
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I think that a lot of people go way too far with explaining things to kids. If kid A just hit kid B for the 5th time that week, do you really need to explain to kid A why hitting is wrong for the 5th time? My kids and my dck get explanations for things that are new. Once they know the rules, I'm not going to insult their intelligence by explaining it again. They know what they did wrong and why it was wrong. Now, I might have a group discussion when everything is calm with all the kids about hitting, or swearing, or ruining other people's stuff not because someone did something wrong, but just for a discussion. And in that case, I ask the kids questions and have them give me the answers. A review of things they already know. But if someone does something they aren't supposed to do, I give consequences, not an explanation. If my parents had constantly given me an explanation every time I did something wrong as a kid (unless it was a first offense, as I said before), I would have honestly thought they had no clue what to do about it and just decided to appear to handle it and drop it. And I probably would have appeared to listen and just let it go in one ear and out the other.
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Old 06-01-2010, 11:37 AM
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I can see everyone's point here. Some people have great luck with redirection and positive reinforcement. I love doing that instead of resorting to TO's or taking away priviledges...But I will do what I need to do to have my day run the way that I want it to. Here are some things that I do:

* I won't yell and scream, but I will use my firm voice if I need to. There is no yelling allowed inside my house. Inside voices only. This helps with only needing to say something once. I won't ask a child to do something or not to do something more than once. After that, we have problems.

* If the toys are being used in an abusive way, then I will put every single toy into another room and then there are no toys to play with. Same rules apply if the kids don't pick up their toys when they are done playing. I'll ask once and only once, and if they don't pick up the toys, I put the toys into another room for the day.

* I don't make threats. If I say "dcb, if you keep hitting and taking toys away, then you won't be allowed to play in the sprinkler today (or whatever else may be going on) I had one kid who kept screwing around and it was a party day. Christmas party, I think. I gave him fair warning, but he kept going so I had him sit at the table and just watch the other kids eat cupcakes and watch the Charlie Brown christmas special. He had string cheese, club crackers and juice instead of a cupcake. My kids know that I'll do what I say I'll do. They fought over doll strollers so I donated them all to Holland Rescue Mission and they watched the strollers get taken away. That was the last fight over toys.

* I keep my schedule consistent on a daily basis and that helps them to know what is expected of them.

* I spend a lot of time with them outdoors and that helps alot. I think kids fight less outside.

* Don't be afraid to terminate a kid if they are making things difficult for everyone else. It can make all the differnece in the world. Once my trouble maker was gone, the atmosphere of my daycare changed and it has been awesome!

* Remember that you are in charge. When kids think that they can push you around, believe me, they will. It's great to be diplomatic with children when you can, but sometimes you just have to put your foot down and let them know that this is not a democracy. Don't be afraid of letting the parents know that their child is having problems following rules. Be prepared for the parents to be offended, but what else can you do?

* I don't expect perfection from my daycare kids, but I do expect them to follow my rules. Every kid will mess up now and again, and when they do make sure that you do address it. Also, when a kid leaves for the day (after a rough day) I make sure to tell them this "I love you when you have good days, I love you when you have rough days. That won't change. Ms. Janet always loves you. Don't worry, today was rough, but tommorrow's a new day and you can make different choices." I reassure them that no matter what, they are loved. It really does help even though it can take a long time with some kids.

Those are just my suggestions. By design, I have a very peaceful home that is very calm when we are indoors and we are very playful and we are totally energetic when we are outside. It works for me, it just took a while to figure out a game plan. Good luck!
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Old 06-01-2010, 12:23 PM
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I agree with both nannyde and professional mom. People are afraid to discipline kids now. It's ridiculous how much we, as a society, expect kids to figure things out on their own since parents aren't being allowed to be a guide anymore.

It's even harder in child care. I really feel for op. If I were in this situation I would probably terminate the worst offenders and work with the ones that are left. Having problems like this can really ruin the reputation of a daycare and maybe even ruin your business. Nobody is going to want to bring their children somewhere where the kids are going to be learning how to misbehave and be generally unhandleable. You are going to start losing clients and be unable to replace them.
I agree with all of this through and through.
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Old 06-01-2010, 12:33 PM
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I use the "get down to their level" in the opposite situations. When a child does something really brilliant, really kind, really sweet, really insightful, really giving, really selflessly, really respectfully... that's when I get down on my knees and look at the eye to eye and tell them they rock my world

I reserve that for honoring the child.

It's very very effective.

When they are being corrected I stand above them. God made them smaller than us for a reason. They respond to being hoovered over just like many other animals in the animal kingdom. It's a sign of dominance and control. We are supposed to be their leaders. We are supposed to be in control.

It's a sign of weakness.. imho ... to discipline at their level. It's a sign of respect to bow down with them when they do extraordinary things. When they show me that they are evolving into universal thinking and universal actions.. then they get my respect and I "kneel" to them, say my appreciations for what they have done and promptly give them a "squeeze the stuffin out of ya" hug.

It's very very effective.
I can't express how much I love this Nanny! I will be implementing this immediately!
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Old 06-01-2010, 05:16 PM
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I can see everyone's point here. Some people have great luck with redirection and positive reinforcement. I love doing that instead of resorting to TO's or taking away priviledges...But I will do what I need to do to have my day run the way that I want it to. Here are some things that I do:

* I won't yell and scream, but I will use my firm voice if I need to. There is no yelling allowed inside my house. Inside voices only. This helps with only needing to say something once. I won't ask a child to do something or not to do something more than once. After that, we have problems.

* If the toys are being used in an abusive way, then I will put every single toy into another room and then there are no toys to play with. Same rules apply if the kids don't pick up their toys when they are done playing. I'll ask once and only once, and if they don't pick up the toys, I put the toys into another room for the day.

* I don't make threats. If I say "dcb, if you keep hitting and taking toys away, then you won't be allowed to play in the sprinkler today (or whatever else may be going on) I had one kid who kept screwing around and it was a party day. Christmas party, I think. I gave him fair warning, but he kept going so I had him sit at the table and just watch the other kids eat cupcakes and watch the Charlie Brown christmas special. He had string cheese, club crackers and juice instead of a cupcake. My kids know that I'll do what I say I'll do. They fought over doll strollers so I donated them all to Holland Rescue Mission and they watched the strollers get taken away. That was the last fight over toys.

* I keep my schedule consistent on a daily basis and that helps them to know what is expected of them.

* I spend a lot of time with them outdoors and that helps alot. I think kids fight less outside.

* Don't be afraid to terminate a kid if they are making things difficult for everyone else. It can make all the differnece in the world. Once my trouble maker was gone, the atmosphere of my daycare changed and it has been awesome!

* Remember that you are in charge. When kids think that they can push you around, believe me, they will. It's great to be diplomatic with children when you can, but sometimes you just have to put your foot down and let them know that this is not a democracy. Don't be afraid of letting the parents know that their child is having problems following rules. Be prepared for the parents to be offended, but what else can you do?

* I don't expect perfection from my daycare kids, but I do expect them to follow my rules. Every kid will mess up now and again, and when they do make sure that you do address it. Also, when a kid leaves for the day (after a rough day) I make sure to tell them this "I love you when you have good days, I love you when you have rough days. That won't change. Ms. Janet always loves you. Don't worry, today was rough, but tommorrow's a new day and you can make different choices." I reassure them that no matter what, they are loved. It really does help even though it can take a long time with some kids.

Those are just my suggestions. By design, I have a very peaceful home that is very calm when we are indoors and we are very playful and we are totally energetic when we are outside. It works for me, it just took a while to figure out a game plan. Good luck!
Thank you! Everyone has a lot of great advice. I realized that we've been repeating ourselves too many times when the children don't listen. Today I started telling them one time to do something, if they didn't listen they were in trouble. What would you do, for example, if a child takes their shoes off outside, you tell them to put them back on, and they continue walking as if you never said a word? I can't make them go inside, because I can't see anyone who is inside while I'm outside. Time-outs work for some, but others are stubborn and refuse to. It turns into a cat and mouse chase, which is plain stupid for an adult to be chasing a child around the playground (which is why I quit that after the first time!). They won't sit when I tell them to, either, though. What would you do in that case?

I agree with you, the outdoors does wonders for a child's behavior! I'm so glad preschool is over for the summer and we can now spend a lot of time outside!

Our schedule is also consistant (and flexible when it needs to be), but we always do the same things in the same order. Even the two yr olds, after they finish lunch, know that they go to the room they nap in, without being told. Actually getting everyone to lay down on their cots and quit playing around and stealing someone else's blankets, grabbing a pillow and wacking someone else with it, etc is another story...

We only allow inside voices also, but what would you do if a 4 or 5 yr old starts yelling for no reason? We have a 2 yr old who does that all the time, but I think he may be autistic. However, I have no understanding for the older ones who I KNOW know better. Usually these two 5 yr olds start yelling and making the most noise at meals and snack. But sometimes it's just randomly throughout the day, even if they seem occupied in what they're playing!

So my main questions were: (1) what would you do if, like in the example I gave, the child ignores you when you tell them to put their shoes back on while everyone's outside? (2) A 5 yr old starts yelling for no reason except to make noise, although they very well know the inside voice rule. (and you try to remove them from the other children, but they won't go to the other room) (3) It's nap time and the child is going around taking the other children's stuff from them, wacking them with it, and refusing to lay down.
I chose those examples because they're the biggest situations when I don't know what the consequence should be.
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Old 06-01-2010, 06:27 PM
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So my main questions were: (1) what would you do if, like in the example I gave, the child ignores you when you tell them to put their shoes back on while everyone's outside?
I would go over, take that child by the arm, look them in the face and TELL them to sit down and put their shoes on. And if they didn't do it I would march them over to the back door, sit their butt down on the ground and tell them they will stay THERE until they put their shoes on. And they can stay there the entire freaking 2 hours we are outside for all I care. That's the CHOICE they made.

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(2) A 5 yr old starts yelling for no reason except to make noise, although they very well know the inside voice rule. (and you try to remove them from the other children, but they won't go to the other room) (
They won't go in the other room, huh? Then I would pick them up and physically take them there. Kids need to understand that they don't have a choice. When you tell them to do something they can do it one of two ways:

1. Nicely, by walking over to where you TOLD them to go or,
2. YOU will take them there. And if YOU have to take them there it will NOT be a pleasant experience.

The point is they don't get a choice. They are STILL gonna do what you say regardless of whether they want to play nicely or not. Eventually they will listen becuase it isn't paying off for them as they will realize they have NO control.

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3) It's nap time and the child is going around taking the other children's stuff from them, wacking them with it, and refusing to lay down.
I chose those examples because they're the biggest situations when I don't know what the consequence should be.
Oh no. I would stand around the corner and EVERY time that child got up I would go over and not so nicely put them back on their nap mat. Every...single..time.... And I can tell you I would NOT be nice about it.

I DO raise my voice. I DO physically move children. I am in charge. It is MY job to ensure they are safe and secure and learning how to cope in the real world. And following the rules is part of living in the real world.

I don't have behavioural problems. When a child starts with me I make it very clear early on that I expect compliance. And I get it.

I don't know what happened in the world. Every one is do damned afraid to discipline kids. Has anyone got a clue? Has anyone looked around our world and actually LOOKED at kids these days? They are rude and inconsiderate and soooooo EGO-centric. And why is that? Because we are under this stupid notion that they should be treated like adults - adults with choices and free will. IMO you only get choices as an adult because you earned that right by learning what is and what is not acceptable. You followed the rules and were a "good" kid and that meant that you got to choose more as you got older.

Kids don't get to make decisions for 90% or their day. They just don't. That's not their job. That's MY job.

Start using real, hard core discipline. And discipline is ALL about attitude.

Go here and read this: http://www.justthebabysitter.com/201...lpha-dogs.html

You wanna know why providers get burned out? Because they don't control their business. They don't control the policies, the kids, the finances.

Take back control and you will love your business all over again.
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Old 06-01-2010, 06:53 PM
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Very well said Judy.
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  #41  
Old 06-01-2010, 06:55 PM
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Is there an early intervention service you can call to come out and conduct an observation?
There might be 1 or 2 children here with serious, needing professional help type serious, behavior issues, that the rest of the children are feeding off of.
Kids should not be behaving this way. "Normal" children do not behave this way.
What are their parent's responses?
Some kids just are not able to be properly dealt with by mere mortals and may need more structure (or more of a license and training to restrain) than you are able to provide.
These kids are out there and can make a providers life miserable until they are out and being cared for by highly trained (and better compensated) individuals.
They'll be flipping desks soon enough within the public school system with their little IEPs saying they need an aide within 5 feet of them at all time.
Do you have a straw that will break the camels back?

I went back and read your posts better.
If you really think a child may be autistic the sooner they get services the better.
If the chaos is so bad you're worried they may shut you down, good God, how are you dealing with it everyday?
Parent's can call the state on a center for a child's behavior. If a child hurts someone badly enough they can peg it on the provider for not providing adequate protection for the other children.
Would you rather have someone there because you asked them or because a parent was so concerned because they saw little Bobbie with a chair over his head threatening to hit their little Susie, or because their kid was kicked in the head while laying down on their cot by the same little Bobbie, so they called the state.

Last edited by Vesta; 06-01-2010 at 07:05 PM. Reason: Aggravation at the situation. Argh
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  #42  
Old 06-01-2010, 09:40 PM
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And, I think this is great, and very effective teaching methods. My response was more in regards to Nanny's method of Hovering over them, when I replied to you, it seemed that you were saying that is the best way....I see you mean it differently though. I also do not want anyone thinking that because of the way I "discipline" that I have out of control kids who do not know the boundaries.....they know them, they understand them, they respect them, I just employ different methods than many to get them to understand and respect them.
what's that stuff about DAP?

is it the best kept secret that only a few of us know?

i'm beginning to wonder. don't worry, you're right - but you know that.
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  #43  
Old 06-02-2010, 05:59 AM
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what's that stuff about DAP?

is it the best kept secret that only a few of us know?

i'm beginning to wonder. don't worry, you're right - but you know that.
hah! I'm beginning to think so.....and thanks
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Old 06-02-2010, 06:17 AM
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What state are you from unregistered?
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  #45  
Old 06-02-2010, 06:42 AM
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This is a really interesting discussion. Personally, I don't think that there is one form of discipline that works for ALL children. I have kids who respond really well to time-out. They HATE missing anything and those few minutes of watching without participating is sheer torture. I have other kids who would sit in there all day but one "look" and they are back in line without ever having to say a word...I have another child who will not "hear" me unless I am on his level. Although, I am fairly certain that he has some ADHD issues.

In any case, I think it is important to find the right leverage for the individual child.
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Old 06-02-2010, 06:49 AM
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I agree Jen...I think that there are many methods that CAN and DO work - and I feel that if YOUR way is working for YOU, then keep it up, but don't condemn ME because I use a different method - a method that happens to work just as well for ME as your method does for YOU. I have never understood why it has to be an argument, why other providers try to tell me that my way is wrong when it works for me and my group....and those providers can try to tell me that it doesn't work for ME, but I am here day in and day out and see firsthand that it does work. I have been doing it this way for 13 years, and I am not burntout or stressed out, and I LOVE my work with children just as much (or more) than when I first started.

(not you Jen, just a general YOU)
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Old 06-02-2010, 06:58 AM
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I agree Jen...I think that there are many methods that CAN and DO work - and I feel that if YOUR way is working for YOU, then keep it up, but don't condemn ME because I use a different method - a method that happens to work just as well for ME as your method does for YOU. I have never understood why it has to be an argument, why other providers try to tell me that my way is wrong when it works for me and my group....and those providers can try to tell me that it doesn't work for ME, but I am here day in and day out and see firsthand that it does work. I have been doing it this way for 13 years, and I am not burntout or stressed out, and I LOVE my work with children just as much (or more) than when I first started.

(not you Jen, just a general YOU)
Absolutely!
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Old 06-02-2010, 07:38 AM
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I agree Jen...I think that there are many methods that CAN and DO work - and I feel that if YOUR way is working for YOU, then keep it up, but don't condemn ME because I use a different method - a method that happens to work just as well for ME as your method does for YOU. I have never understood why it has to be an argument, why other providers try to tell me that my way is wrong when it works for me and my group....and those providers can try to tell me that it doesn't work for ME, but I am here day in and day out and see firsthand that it does work. I have been doing it this way for 13 years, and I am not burntout or stressed out, and I LOVE my work with children just as much (or more) than when I first started.

(not you Jen, just a general YOU)
Yes but you perceive people are condemning YOU when in fact they are just explaining their position on an aspect of your methods.

Case in point:

I said: It's a sign of weakness.. imho ... to discipline at their level.

You said: I also do not see it as a "sign of weakness" (thanks for the pot shot BTW) to get down to eye level when I need to discipline a child.

My saying it was a sign of weakness never even implied that you are weak. I'm saying that to the child it is a sign of weakness as it would to any other animal in the animal kingdom.

You, of course, turned that into a slam to you and your ways and then took it an extra measure and compared it to how one would treat a dog.

You do this "I'm being condemned" when it didn't have a THING to do with you in the first place. You made it up and went for it and then continue to stomp foot about it ten posts down in the thread. Creating your own chaos for your movement lessens the impact of your message.
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Old 06-02-2010, 08:03 AM
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Whatever Nanny, you cannot convince me that your comment was not aimed at me....after all it was directly related to what I said is my way of "disciplining".

I'm done. It clearly is pointless to EVER try to discuss alternative, and DAP, methods of working with children and guiding their behavior with people who are so set in their ways that they will never even consider another point of view.

Have a GREAT day, me and the kids are going out to play in the water.
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Old 06-02-2010, 08:07 AM
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I don't normally use these techniques, but I think if I were the op I would start doing two things.

1. Start controlling everything you can control. Examples: don't just allow the kids to move from inside to outside, have them line up, maybe even hold hands. Nobody moves until everyone is complying. instead of allowing everyone to dig into the blocks, sit them down with a certain number of blocks for each child. If they don't think those are enough or need a different piece, they are going to have to cooperate with another child. If arguing or fighting breaks out, make all the kids take two steps back away from the toys and look at you. Maybe have them count to ten before returning to their play. These are just a few examples. When the children show up the first day of doing this, explain to the children that you are having to control things you wouldn't normally control because they are showing that they cannot control themselves. Do not allow any free play. With one exception: outdoor play. They sound like they need to expend some energy. Don't take this away as a punishment for a while. They need this one. The downside to this one is that it's going to take extra time and prep work. The kids will rebel at first. The first couple of days are going to be really hard, but it sounds like things are already really hard.

2. start using peer guilt. If one student does something wrong, the whole group has to stop what they are doing. They will need to seperate and sit quietly while you deal with the child that didn't follow the rules. Kids don't like it when everyone knows they are the guilty party that's keeping everyone from having fun. Eventually, the kids may even begin to help keep eachother accountable. They are also less likely to tattle-tale for small offenses because they won't want the whole group to have to stop playing. You will have to do some explaining on this one as well. You can tell the kids that you are not trying to punish the whole group, but that you can't keep an eye on the whole group while you are dealing with the offender. So they will have to seperate and sit quietly. Tell them that this is only until you are sure they can control themselves.
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Old 06-02-2010, 08:20 AM
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Whatever Nanny, you cannot convince me that your comment was not aimed at me....after all it was directly related to what I said is my way of "disciplining".

I'm done. It clearly is pointless to EVER try to discuss alternative, and DAP, methods of working with children and guiding their behavior with people who are so set in their ways that they will never even consider another point of view.

Have a GREAT day, me and the kids are going out to play in the water.
Again, this sort of reaction creates chaos and doesn't speak to the message we all have stated: There's more than one way to do this right.

This isn't about YOU. You didn't come up with the idea to get down on kids level to talk to them. People have been trying/using that method for years with animals and humans. It's a very very old concept. It's not special or unique... it just works for you and so you are using it.

My method is very very old too. It's been done since the begining of time. It works for me.

Nobody is saying that you are weak. What part of that can you not understand? I believe that getting down to the child's level when disciplining them is perceived by the CHILD that you and/or your message is weak. I choose to get down at their level when I want to show them that I'm weak/humbled by them. At that moment THEY are the alpha dog because they have shown characteristics that will lend THEM as leaders of their pack. The can be "my" leader and show "me" their way when their way is universally selfless.

Can you get that?

When you "discuss alternative, and DAP, methods of working with children and guiding their behavior" you have to expect that many seasoned, highly experienced, and educated providers are going to do a little stopmin. It's not really something "new" or "unique" or "special". It's A method that's been around for decades. Most likely some version of your current method has been tried and eliminated as an option by those with education and experience. That's all. So what? You do what YOU think is right with YOUR kids and YOUR business. As you gain more experience and age and come into contact with more children from a wider breadth of life you may see it differently... maybe not.
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Old 06-02-2010, 10:20 AM
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Quote: Most likely some version of your current method has been tried and eliminated as an option by those with education and experience.

Nanny, I have 13 years experience as a provider, 19 as a parent and an Associates Degree in ECE and Child Development, with 72 college units in ECE/Child Development and a Master Teacher Permit. I am a Mentor teacher for 4 colleges, an Independent Consultant and Environmental Rating Scale Assessor for Head Start and our Local R&R and have had articles published by distinguished journals, Please do not speak to me as if I have no experience or education. I know what I am talking about and have the credentials to back it up.
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  #53  
Old 06-02-2010, 10:28 AM
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Quote: Most likely some version of your current method has been tried and eliminated as an option by those with education and experience.

Nanny, I have 13 years experience as a provider, 19 as a parent and an Associates Degree in ECE and Child Development, with 72 college units in ECE/Child Development and a Master Teacher Permit. I am a Mentor teacher for 4 colleges, an Independent Consultant and Environmental Rating Scale Assessor for Head Start and our Local R&R and have had articles published by distinguished journals, Please do not speak to me as if I have no experience or education. I know what I am talking about and have the credentials to back it up.
Ah yeah.. like I said "most likely some version of your current method has been tried and eliminated as an option by THOSE with education and experience.

What's your Bachelor's degree in?
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  #54  
Old 06-02-2010, 10:29 AM
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actually, the most experienced and educated in the field of early childhood education practice and recommend what crystal described.

and actually there is only one appropriate way - the developmentally APPROPRIATE way. if it's not being done the appropriate way, then it must be....

inappropriate?
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Old 06-02-2010, 10:54 AM
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actually, the most experienced and educated in the field of early childhood education practice and recommend what crystal described.

and actually there is only one appropriate way - the developmentally APPROPRIATE way. if it's not being done the appropriate way, then it must be....

inappropriate?
Just because something has a stamp of approval from an association, a college, a government does NOT make it the right way or the ONLY way.

Is the only way to treat a headache with Tylenol or like drugs? It must be - it has the stamp of approval from the FDA.

Is the ONLY way to educate kids through 10 months of 6.5 hour days in public or like schools? It must be because it has the stamp of approval from every state government.

BUT....I also know you can rid yourself of a headache with a chiropractic adjustment. I also know lots of kids are educated at home by their mothers.

My point is that there are MANY ways to an end. And all of them can be effective and positive.

If the new ways are so great then why is society the way it is? Kids today have more disrespect, more drug use, more teenage pregnancy than EVER before. And this is NOT due to more access to drugs or less access to birth control. It is because they have been taught by these "gentle discipline" and DAP methods that THEY are in charge. That THEY get to make choices. But kids brains are not set up to make those choices. They just aren't. You are expecting a child to make adult decisions. They can't. That's why they NEED to be disciplined.

All the fancy credentials and letters after one's name don't mean squat if those kids end up rude, impolite and inconsiderate adults.

There is more than one means to an end.

And Crystal...stop being so egocentric. EVERY post is NOT a personal attack about you. We all have more important things to think about in the day then how to personally insult you. Get over yourself.
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Old 06-02-2010, 10:59 AM
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Default Ummm...OK

There is no method that is always effective for every child. Sometimes we have to ask for advice and we need to think outside the box to find an effective way to handle behavior that is unnacceptable. To those of you with tons of educational expertise, that's wonderful for you, and it's always cool to learn new approaches to deal with issues. I'm not convinced, however, that a ECE background automatically means that your way is the only appropriate way. I've been a family daycare provider for about 6 years now and I was the toddler lead teacher in the daycare that I worked at before that. I did the 120 hours of classroom hours to get my CDA. I have learned what is considered developmentally appropriate for children at various ages. Sure, in theory the techniques we learn should work to assure that the children make good choices, but in reality, kids are unpredictable. I really don't use the information that I was taught in the class because it really doesn't work for my kids. I have one boy who is the type that will be totally out of control if he thinks that he can get away with it. I have to discipline him in a different way. I have girl who will lash out physically at whoever is in the closest proximity to her when she gets upset. I have to deal with her in a different way. It's all a matter of finding out what is effective for the child. Kids are not made from cookie cutters, so a cookie cutter approach won't necessarily yield the best results for all kids. Nan and Judy make fine points and this is just my opinion, but I find nothing wrong with their approaches. If I had a child that needed daycare while I was working, I wouldn't hesitate to send my child to either of them. I would like the way that they would not just tell me what they think that I would want to hear. They get results and from what I can tell, they have happy kids and happy families. I have happy kids and happy parents, too, and I have it because I go outside of the box for solutions when I have issues. Please don't take this post as an insult for those of you who have the strong ECE background, because it really isn't. I would just like to suggest that maybe trying some unconventional measures (not abusive, by any means!) with difficult children. Again, no disrespect intended.
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Old 06-02-2010, 11:11 AM
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There is no method that is always effective for every child. Sometimes we have to ask for advice and we need to think outside the box to find an effective way to handle behavior that is unnacceptable. To those of you with tons of educational expertise, that's wonderful for you, and it's always cool to learn new approaches to deal with issues. I'm not convinced, however, that a ECE background automatically means that your way is the only appropriate way. I've been a family daycare provider for about 6 years now and I was the toddler lead teacher in the daycare that I worked at before that. I did the 120 hours of classroom hours to get my CDA. I have learned what is considered developmentally appropriate for children at various ages. Sure, in theory the techniques we learn should work to assure that the children make good choices, but in reality, kids are unpredictable. I really don't use the information that I was taught in the class because it really doesn't work for my kids. I have one boy who is the type that will be totally out of control if he thinks that he can get away with it. I have to discipline him in a different way. I have girl who will lash out physically at whoever is in the closest proximity to her when she gets upset. I have to deal with her in a different way. It's all a matter of finding out what is effective for the child. Kids are not made from cookie cutters, so a cookie cutter approach won't necessarily yield the best results for all kids. Nan and Judy make fine points and this is just my opinion, but I find nothing wrong with their approaches. If I had a child that needed daycare while I was working, I wouldn't hesitate to send my child to either of them. I would like the way that they would not just tell me what they think that I would want to hear. They get results and from what I can tell, they have happy kids and happy families. I have happy kids and happy parents, too, and I have it because I go outside of the box for solutions when I have issues. Please don't take this post as an insult for those of you who have the strong ECE background, because it really isn't. I would just like to suggest that maybe trying some unconventional measures (not abusive, by any means!) with difficult children. Again, no disrespect intended.
Janet, I agree. And the other thing I wanted to point out to support what you said was that what we also have to consider is that regardless of what all the text books point out is "appropriate" we have another thing to contend with - parents!

Sometimes textbook approaches in daycare don't work because at home parents are sabatoging that. How many of us have parents who allow their child open manipulation tactics and throw all out fits at their arrival only to be coddled and hugged while hitting their mother in the face?

And stuff like that REALLY happens. So, when you have a child who spends the other half of their life running roughshod over their parents and acting, for lack of a better word, like a spoiled brat OF COURSE different techniques are going to be necessary when they walk in my door. Because not only is is a disservice to allow children to act in that manner it would be impossible to offer a quality environment if five kids where running around in an ego-centric universe, hitting, kicking and screaming when it so suited them. It just doesn't work that way.
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Old 06-02-2010, 11:12 AM
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Judy...I am not making this about me, and I NEVER said EVERY post was a personal attack against ME, just Nanny's and now, yours....I am only defending myself from posts that have been in direct response to what I have said. Let's talk about getting over ourselves, when you felt the need, after being brought in by nanny, to inject your personal opinions here when you never visit here UNLESS there is some type of drama brewing, as if YOUR opinion is THE opinion that matters.....so yah, whatever

And, you just said yourself that there is more than one way to deal with situations...I said that from the very beginning, yet no one seemed to notice that, just the fact that I use different methods.....go back and read my posts....not once did I EVER say that anyone else's methods of disicplining is wrong, yet I was met with remarks from nanny and you about how wrong my methods are......

so, go back to bitching at kids, talking **** about parents and leave me alone.
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Old 06-02-2010, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Janet View Post
There is no method that is always effective for every child. Sometimes we have to ask for advice and we need to think outside the box to find an effective way to handle behavior that is unnacceptable. To those of you with tons of educational expertise, that's wonderful for you, and it's always cool to learn new approaches to deal with issues. I'm not convinced, however, that a ECE background automatically means that your way is the only appropriate way. I've been a family daycare provider for about 6 years now and I was the toddler lead teacher in the daycare that I worked at before that. I did the 120 hours of classroom hours to get my CDA. I have learned what is considered developmentally appropriate for children at various ages. Sure, in theory the techniques we learn should work to assure that the children make good choices, but in reality, kids are unpredictable. I really don't use the information that I was taught in the class because it really doesn't work for my kids. I have one boy who is the type that will be totally out of control if he thinks that he can get away with it. I have to discipline him in a different way. I have girl who will lash out physically at whoever is in the closest proximity to her when she gets upset. I have to deal with her in a different way. It's all a matter of finding out what is effective for the child. Kids are not made from cookie cutters, so a cookie cutter approach won't necessarily yield the best results for all kids. Nan and Judy make fine points and this is just my opinion, but I find nothing wrong with their approaches. If I had a child that needed daycare while I was working, I wouldn't hesitate to send my child to either of them. I would like the way that they would not just tell me what they think that I would want to hear. They get results and from what I can tell, they have happy kids and happy families. I have happy kids and happy parents, too, and I have it because I go outside of the box for solutions when I have issues. Please don't take this post as an insult for those of you who have the strong ECE background, because it really isn't. I would just like to suggest that maybe trying some unconventional measures (not abusive, by any means!) with difficult children. Again, no disrespect intended.
I agree, there IS more than one way to "discipline" children, and have said, more than once, that if it works for you, go for it. I just choose to employ different methods than many.
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Old 06-02-2010, 11:16 AM
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Judy...I am not making this about me, and I NEVER said EVERY post was a personal attack against ME, just Nanny's and now, yours....I am only defending myself from posts that have been in direct response to what I have said. Let's talk about getting over ourselves, when you felt the need, after being brought in by nanny, to inject your personal opinions here when you never visit here UNLESS there is some type of drama brewing, as if YOUR opinion is THE opinion that matters.....so yah, whatever

And, you just said yourself that there is more than one way to deal with situations...I said that from the very beginning, yet no one seemed to notice that, just the fact that I use different methods.....go back and read my posts....not once did I EVER say that anyone else's methods of disicplining is wrong, yet I was met with remarks from nanny and you about how wrong my methods are......

so, go back to bitching at kids, talking **** about parents and leave me alone.
Yes, I am easily controlled by people like nannyde. Anyone who has ever read my posts or blog knows I thrive on having the popular opinion.

We seriously need an "insert sarcasm here" smilie.
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Old 06-02-2010, 11:31 AM
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Yes, I am easily controlled by people like nannyde.
Judy Trickett = nannyde's sock puppet
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Old 06-02-2010, 11:39 AM
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Default Yikes

I guess the key point to remember here is that opinions are like buttholes, everybody's got one.

For the record, if you read Judy's blog, you can see that she has opinions that are not neccessarily the most popular opinions, but they're hers and she doesn't apologize for them nor does she feel the need to defend them. Crystal, you don't need to defend your opinions and methods. None of us do. I do things the way that it feels right to do them. If what you're doing works for you, then that rocks! However, the OP was looking for different options. I don't think that anyone meant to to put you on the defensive.

Sometimes we all have a tendency to get defensive when we think that we are being judged by others. I can be really sensitive if I am criticized, whether it is legitimate or not. I've had to learn to have a thick skin because this is a job industry where there are many paths to take that lead to the same destination. We all have the same goal, but we just take different routes to get there.
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Old 06-02-2010, 12:10 PM
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Default ???

OK, what the heck is a sock puppet???
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Old 06-02-2010, 12:45 PM
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I'm with those who say, different kids/groups of kids may need different approaches. What works with one child may not be so effective with another. And in the same, one provider may be able to easily do guidance one way another provider may be better suited to guide the children in another way, maybe closer to how she was raised. If we're all turning out kind, obedient, confident children I don't see the problem.

And if I was having the amount of issues the OP is having then you'd better believe I'd be listening to every single post on here looking for anything to help whether it's in the books as DAP or not! If I were you, OP, as another member already stated, I'd terminate the worst offenders and work with the rest. Once the group is back under control you can refill those slots. Oh and one book that I really like is "Kid Cooperation" by Elizabeth Pantley. I checked it out from the library, and only read the first few chapters, but it was enough inspiration and advice to rein my own 2 wild children back in. Good luck, OP!
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Old 06-02-2010, 01:15 PM
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OK, what the heck is a sock puppet???
LOL! A puppet made out of a sock!
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Old 06-02-2010, 01:18 PM
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lol....a sock puppet is when a member of a forum has more than one screenname and pretends to be more than one person posting.
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Old 06-02-2010, 01:55 PM
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lol....a sock puppet is when a member of a forum has more than one screenname and pretends to be more than one person posting.
Really? Well, I would be careful making accusations you can't back up.

Perhaps Michael could reassure us that there is no one on this thread who is sharing TWO usernames with only one IP.

I would welcome that bit of research. Anyone else??

Michael? Could you put Crystals mind at ease for us?
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Old 06-02-2010, 02:07 PM
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Really? Well, I would be careful making accusations you can't back up.

Perhaps Michael could reassure us that there is no one on this thread who is sharing TWO usernames with only one IP.

I would welcome that bit of research. Anyone else??

Michael? Could you put Crystals mind at ease for us?
OR???

Is it

Nannyde = Judytrickett's sock puppet
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Old 06-02-2010, 02:09 PM
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OR???

Is it

Nannyde = Judytrickett's sock puppet

Yes, yes, that MUST be it! Apparently is is unbelievable that more than one person could actually share the same sentiment in good old fashioned parenting. Maybe we're twins seperated at birth.
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Old 06-02-2010, 02:12 PM
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Yes, yes, that MUST be it! Apparently is is unbelievable that more than one person could actually share the same sentiment in good old fashioned parenting. Maybe we're twins seperated at birth.
Since we are both the Alpha Dog I would say we need to take turns:

Chicken

Egg

Chicken

Egg

What comes first? I do not know.
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Old 06-02-2010, 02:15 PM
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Since we are both the Alpha Dog I would say we need to take turns:

Chicken

Egg

Chicken

Egg

What comes first? I do not know.
I'll be chicken first. Since I am an Alpha dog that enables me to sit squash the egg to make sure it never becomes the chicken.

Hey, what can I say, I'm an animal!
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Old 06-02-2010, 02:17 PM
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Op.....did you get what you needed? I hope so, sounds like a nightmare. I hope you figure it out and get back some control.

If not, pop in and ask some more questions. Because otherwise nannyde and I can "talk to ourselves" post after post after post.
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Old 06-02-2010, 02:37 PM
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Really? Well, I would be careful making accusations you can't back up.

Perhaps Michael could reassure us that there is no one on this thread who is sharing TWO usernames with only one IP.

I would welcome that bit of research. Anyone else??

Michael? Could you put Crystals mind at ease for us?
Uhm, excuse me? I NEVER accused anyone of being a sock puppet....Nanny jokingly said it, someone asked what a sockpuppet is and I answered them. LOL! Why don't you back off?
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Old 06-02-2010, 02:47 PM
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Default Oops...

I asked about the "sock puppet" thing. I had no idea what that meant. Thanks for answering, now so many other forum comments make sense now that I know what that term means. I'm really not too bright when it comes to the "internet machine". I always have to have my daughter tell me what things mean! She had to teach me how to do the facebook thingie and she got really mad at me for posting on her wall and I had no idea what the heck she was talking about! I am so uncool. Sorry for any confusion about the sock puppet question, that was my bad!
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Old 06-02-2010, 04:09 PM
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Uhm, excuse me? I NEVER accused anyone of being a sock puppet....Nanny jokingly said it, someone asked what a sockpuppet is and I answered them. LOL! Why don't you back off?
Quote:

From Wikipedia:

A sockpuppet is an online identity used for purposes of deception within an online community. In its earliest usage, a sockpuppet was a false identity through which a member of an Internet community speaks with or about himself or herself, pretending to be a different person,[1] like a ventriloquist manipulating a hand puppet.
Now, being a daycare provider I took the "sock puppet" comment literally when nannyde spoke of it. You know...someone that controls the conversation of another - like you do when you are the sock puppet hand.

So, anyway, I was clueless as to the internet terminology of "sock puppet". Never heard that one.

With that I WILL apologize for assuming Crystal was conveying a conspiracy theory of a dual poster.


See?? Even I can be humble when warranted. Surprise, surprise, eh?
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Old 06-02-2010, 04:18 PM
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I asked about the "sock puppet" thing. I had no idea what that meant. Thanks for answering, now so many other forum comments make sense now that I know what that term means. I'm really not too bright when it comes to the "internet machine". I always have to have my daughter tell me what things mean! She had to teach me how to do the facebook thingie and she got really mad at me for posting on her wall and I had no idea what the heck she was talking about! I am so uncool. Sorry for any confusion about the sock puppet question, that was my bad!
Maybe I should start a Legend of Slang
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Old 06-02-2010, 04:20 PM
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Maybe I should start a Legend of Slang
Good idea.

You better put it in the acronyms too. We'll soon see SP and no one will have any idea what the heck it means.
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Old 06-02-2010, 04:57 PM
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Thanks for that Judy....no harm, no foul. Have a great evening.
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Old 06-02-2010, 07:08 PM
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Op.....did you get what you needed? I hope so, sounds like a nightmare. I hope you figure it out and get back some control.

If not, pop in and ask some more questions. Because otherwise nannyde and I can "talk to ourselves" post after post after post.
This turned out very entertaining! Not exactly the direction I was leaning toward, but almost funny when you sit back and just read.

Way back in response to my questions about shoes at outdoor play, screaming, and nap time bullying, you mentioned that if a child won't go somewhere on their own, you'd physically bring them. Sounds simple enough...except some of them are too big for me to physically move. They won't allow me to take them by the hand and direct them (they stick in their heels and pull the opposite direction. If I pick them up, I get kicked in the shins or pinched, and then they're too heavy and having such a fit, that I never make it all the way to the other room while holding them. Even if I do make it to the other room, they immediately RUN back to the room they were in originally and refuse to go back. So when you cannot physically make them because even if you do, they still jump back up and run away, what do you ( or anyone else...all ideas helpful!) suggest in that case?
Wrestling matches with a 5 yr old are NOT pleasant. If I move them back each and every time they get up, they keep it up continually and each time they fight harder and more physically toward us. Because the child fought it tooth and nail each and every time, I ended up leaving a red mark on one child's wrist after taking them by the hand and physically moving them back where they were supposed to be so many times. So I DON'T want that to happen again. The red mark I mean.

Oh, and someone asked what state I'm in. It's Indiana.
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Old 06-03-2010, 02:57 AM
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Now, being a daycare provider I took the "sock puppet" comment literally when nannyde spoke of it. You know...someone that controls the conversation of another - like you do when you are the sock puppet hand.
Yes that's what I meant: Like this guy:

http://www.amazon.com/Plush-Silly-Fl.../dp/B0016LT5GM
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Old 06-03-2010, 03:37 AM
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This turned out very entertaining! Not exactly the direction I was leaning toward, but almost funny when you sit back and just read.

Way back in response to my questions about shoes at outdoor play, screaming, and nap time bullying, you mentioned that if a child won't go somewhere on their own, you'd physically bring them. Sounds simple enough...except some of them are too big for me to physically move. They won't allow me to take them by the hand and direct them (they stick in their heels and pull the opposite direction. If I pick them up, I get kicked in the shins or pinched, and then they're too heavy and having such a fit, that I never make it all the way to the other room while holding them. Even if I do make it to the other room, they immediately RUN back to the room they were in originally and refuse to go back. So when you cannot physically make them because even if you do, they still jump back up and run away, what do you ( or anyone else...all ideas helpful!) suggest in that case?
Wrestling matches with a 5 yr old are NOT pleasant. If I move them back each and every time they get up, they keep it up continually and each time they fight harder and more physically toward us. Because the child fought it tooth and nail each and every time, I ended up leaving a red mark on one child's wrist after taking them by the hand and physically moving them back where they were supposed to be so many times. So I DON'T want that to happen again. The red mark I mean.

Oh, and someone asked what state I'm in. It's Indiana.
Wow. Are they all like that? Did you tell the parents? Honestly if there was an older child misbehaving THAT much that I couldn't do anything with him without harming him in the process, I'd call the parents. If they couldn't straighten him out over the phone, then I'd tell them they have to pick up and seriously consider terming him. I'm really sorry you're going through this. Hopefully some of the other ladies will have some other ideas? GL!
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Old 06-03-2010, 03:50 AM
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This turned out very entertaining! Not exactly the direction I was leaning toward, but almost funny when you sit back and just read.

Way back in response to my questions about shoes at outdoor play, screaming, and nap time bullying, you mentioned that if a child won't go somewhere on their own, you'd physically bring them. Sounds simple enough...except some of them are too big for me to physically move. They won't allow me to take them by the hand and direct them (they stick in their heels and pull the opposite direction. If I pick them up, I get kicked in the shins or pinched, and then they're too heavy and having such a fit, that I never make it all the way to the other room while holding them. Even if I do make it to the other room, they immediately RUN back to the room they were in originally and refuse to go back. So when you cannot physically make them because even if you do, they still jump back up and run away, what do you ( or anyone else...all ideas helpful!) suggest in that case?
Wrestling matches with a 5 yr old are NOT pleasant. If I move them back each and every time they get up, they keep it up continually and each time they fight harder and more physically toward us. Because the child fought it tooth and nail each and every time, I ended up leaving a red mark on one child's wrist after taking them by the hand and physically moving them back where they were supposed to be so many times. So I DON'T want that to happen again. The red mark I mean.

Oh, and someone asked what state I'm in. It's Indiana.
Yes this situation becomes a liability for you because you don't have a leader that is leading.

You need to sit down immediately with the Director and tell her that these children are behaving in a way that is dangerous to self, others, and staff. You need to start documenting their dangerous behavior and your actions specifically the verbal directions you have given them and the consequences. You then need to document their reactions to the consequences.

Do it every day and keep a copy of it yourself. Putting this in writing to her puts the responsibility of this directly on her.

She needs to either let these kids go or provide ADDITIONAL staff so that there is a staff member to do one to one with these kids during their violence and refussal to follow directions.

You need to ask IN WRITING for ADDITIONAL methods of giving verbal directions, consequences, and what documentation regarding these that she needs. You need to ask for additional staff so that there is someone available to watch the core group of kids when these kids go off. You also need to put in writing that you are asking HER to come and monitor the room with you and be available to you immediately should a child's behavior escalate to the point where they are a harm to self, others, and staff.

Get the Centers policy on violence and bullying. Look at the policy and see if it addresses what steps will be taken should a kid not follow the policy. If there are actions to be taken and they have not taken them point this out in your letter to her.

If you have already tried involving the director and she is not willing to take action then you have a decision to make. That is whether to turn this situation into the State and request involvement or to ask to be switched to another area of the day care or quit.

Staying in this situation really puts you at risk. While you are trying to defend yourself, defend the children, and exact very low level consequences like time out these kids are escalating. You really are to the point where you can't physically do anything with them and you have no leadership coming and taking care of what the room staff can't do... so you must walk away from this.

You have tried all the basic "developmentally appropriate" techniques available and of course they are useless in this situation. Those kids are showing you clearly that time out, talking eye level with them, taking away privledges etc. mean absolutely nothing AND the fact is that they don't really have to do the lowest level consequence in child discipline... time out. Three minutes on a chair for throwing a chair is REDICULOUS. It does nothing at all to phase the child who wants to hurl chairs.

These are the type of kids who the only time they are happy is when they have hyper, frentic, extreme stimulation to their brains OR an adult is providing intensive NEW.. high level.. activities that require intensive adult management or toys that DO stuff and provide high level of entertainment with little effort on the part of the kids. When their brains are set to THAT to be happy they go ballistic in a calm, self entertainment, free play, make do with what YOU have in the room toys while adults supervise you doing that.

I'm sorry you have to be a part of this. It's becoming so much more prevalent in this society. We have kids who have horrible diets, watch a lot of tv with a lot of that being violent cartoons, play violent video games, have no "leader" in their home so the adult allows them to engage in the violent entertainment and violence towards the other people and belongings of the home. They have a world where every day they have no limits but have nearly ALL of their hours of the day filled with a world that is not healthy for them. Them being at your Center is not healthy for them because you have no leader either.
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Old 06-03-2010, 08:11 AM
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Wrestling matches with a 5 yr old are NOT pleasant.
No it's not. If it's the same child and they fight you tooth and nail and nothing seems to work because the child just refuses to listen I would immediatelly call the parent and have a meeting with them and the child to discuss them. Keep a log of all the times during the day that you have to struggle with this child and ask the parents what they think you should do when the child acts this way. Then you discuss with them what you think you should do and don't be afraid to dicuss termination if the problem isn't corrected within a reasonable amount of time. You can tell the child that if he chooses to behave this way he may not be allowed to play with your toys or stay at your house anymore.

After you talk to the family any time that the child acts out call the parent at work and discuss it with them and have them talk to the child on the phone or have them pick their child up. If the parent doesn't have a sense of urgency to correct this matter quickly they will once you start calling them 3-7 times a day at work and they are forced to pick their child up. I only do this with kids that just really don't want to behave and are old enough to know better. They need to learn that in the real world you have to follow rules and if you don't there are consequences.

Just a thought in case you get to your wits end.
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Old 06-03-2010, 08:17 AM
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No it's not. If it's the same child and they fight you tooth and nail and nothing seems to work because the child just refuses to listen I would immediatelly call the parent and have a meeting with them and the child to discuss them. Keep a log of all the times during the day that you have to struggle with this child and ask the parents what they think you should do when the child acts this way. Then you discuss with them what you think you should do and don't be afraid to dicuss termination if the problem isn't corrected within a reasonable amount of time. You can tell the child that if he chooses to behave this way he may not be allowed to play with your toys or stay at your house anymore.

After you talk to the family any time that the child acts out call the parent at work and discuss it with them and have them talk to the child on the phone or have them pick their child up. If the parent doesn't have a sense of urgency to correct this matter quickly they will once you start calling them 3-7 times a day at work and they are forced to pick their child up. I only do this with kids that just really don't want to behave and are old enough to know better. They need to learn that in the real world you have to follow rules and if you don't there are consequences.

Just a thought in case you get to your wits end.
I agree, if you have done everything, and the behavior hasn't gotten any better, you need to start calling the parents to pic up. They need to talk to the child, if this doesn't help, I would definately terminate!! It is definately worth you getting hurt, others children, or your own children!! No amt. of money is worth that!!!!
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Old 06-03-2010, 08:26 AM
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I agree, if you have done everything, and the behavior hasn't gotten any better, you need to start calling the parents to pic up. They need to talk to the child, if this doesn't help, I would definately terminate!! It is definately worth you getting hurt, others children, or your own children!! No amt. of money is worth that!!!!
She's in a Center. This is one of the big problems here. You have adults being expected to care for kids that are acting like crazed wild animals and the only option they really have is to quit their jobs.

She doesn't have the power to terminate.
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Old 06-03-2010, 08:31 AM
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She's in a Center. This is one of the big problems here. You have adults being expected to care for kids that are acting like crazed wild animals and the only option they really have is to quit their jobs.

She doesn't have the power to terminate.
THis would suck!! DO the owners know about this? DO the owners not care, do they not take care of this child at all? I wonder if they are writing up incident reports each time a child hits, bites, etc..?
This is crazy!!!
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Old 06-03-2010, 08:41 AM
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If it is as bad as described, and all viable options of discipline have been exhausted, I would quit. NO WAY IN ---- I would work under such stressful conditions every day. There ARE other jobs in ECE out there. Start looking.
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Old 06-03-2010, 08:55 AM
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She's in a Center. This is one of the big problems here. You have adults being expected to care for kids that are acting like crazed wild animals and the only option they really have is to quit their jobs.
And this is one of the reasons why I decided early on not to place my daughter in a center. All of the ones I have seen in my area all have children running around and screaming and I do not want my daughter to come home and act that way.

I have had better experiences when I go to the gym and leave her in the playroom with the gym staff. At least those girls will call the parents on the intercom if their child gets out of line and they are expected to listen and behave.
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Old 06-03-2010, 11:01 AM
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And this is one of the reasons why I decided early on not to place my daughter in a center. All of the ones I have seen in my area all have children running around and screaming and I do not want my daughter to come home and act that way.

.
Very true. Lots of daycare workers will tell you that what you say is true.

One of my best friends was an ECE and worked in a centre before her kids were born. When her mat leave was up she told me there was no way in hell she would ever put her kids in a centre for the reasons you state above.
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Old 06-03-2010, 07:11 PM
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She's in a Center. This is one of the big problems here. You have adults being expected to care for kids that are acting like crazed wild animals and the only option they really have is to quit their jobs.

She doesn't have the power to terminate.
Actually, I'm not at a center. I'm an assistant at a large home daycare (allowed to have up to 16 children). The owner and I work together with the children and their discipline, activities, etc.
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Old 06-04-2010, 01:46 AM
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Actually, I'm not at a center. I'm an assistant at a large home daycare (allowed to have up to 16 children). The owner and I work together with the children and their discipline, activities, etc.
What does the owner say to all this then? Is she okay with what's going on? Is she reading these posts or are you at least conveying them to her?

You guys seriously need to start calling some parents on the older kids when they are out of control (5 yo refusing to do timeout kicking and hitting you is NOT ACCEPTABLE!). I just termed one of those myself. I'm 99% sure he was special needs of some kind, but the parents wouldn't tell me ANYTHING about his behavior, daycare history, or help me in any way to deal with his very big issues. It is completely ridiculous for anyone (boss or parents) to expect you to work under those conditions. If the parents don't or won't help they get termed fast. Just like the kids, the parents need consequences too sometimes.

Again, can you get an extra staff member temporarily? Maybe a family member of you or the boss, just to come in to keep your ratio in place so one of you can effectively deal with the discipline issues when they come up?

If your boss is fine with the behavior or won't do anything to fix it, I'd find a new job asap.
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Old 06-04-2010, 04:04 AM
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Actually, I'm not at a center. I'm an assistant at a large home daycare (allowed to have up to 16 children). The owner and I work together with the children and their discipline, activities, etc.


My mistake. I thought when you were describing the outdoor time you were talking about an outdoor playground as one would have in a Center.

Okay... well that changes things a bit.

Can you tell me the number of kids you have daily, approx ages, and number of directly supervising adults.

I'm praying you aren't going to tell me that you and the owner are doing up to 16 kids with just the two of you.

Out of the 16 kids are some required to be above Kindergarten in age and are they allowed to be in the day care in the summer?

Are you guys allowed six under the age of two? I think I remember that about Indiana but not sure.

What is your physical set up and are the children under two physically mixed in with the over two's?
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Old 06-04-2010, 06:55 AM
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I think your owner needs to take some classes/workshops in order to become a more effective leader.....and it wouldn't hurt for you to do so either.

I also think that it is yours and the owners responsibilty to ensure the safety of ALL of the children in care and you are not doing that. It seems a call to licensing is in order to get things set straight, IMO. If it is as bad as you describe, something SERIOUS can happen, and you and the owner will not have to worry about losing SOME business, but ALL of the business. Also, accountability will not be JUST on the owner, it will be on you as well.....get it fixed or get a new job, before YOU end up in trouble.
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