Daycare.com Forum
mrsnj 05:38 AM 06-20-2013
I have a little boy here who has been with me since he was a baby. When he came to me he was milestone delayed. Never hit his marks on time. Didn't walk until he was a good year and half. Didn't talk till he was three. By the time he was into school work, you could really tell something was wrong. I believe he is autistic. The parent (aka MOM) says there is nothing wrong with him and he is just a 'lazy brat'. I felt so bad for this child. He is such a sweet boy. I went out of my way to get him ready for kindergarten. He would pick up fast if shown what to do and with repeated learning. I knew he would pass the academic part but knew he would get pegged for speech, large/small motor AND he wasn't potty trained. All my years doing daycare I have always told nervous potty training moms "Stop worrying. It will happen. I have never sent a child to kindergarten in diapers!" Can't say that anymore!
Mom says nothing is wrong with the child. He is fine. She after all talked late. Not all kids walk on cue. Her sister works with autistic children and says there is nothing wrong with him. Grandmom is a nurse and says he is fine and the issue is the mom. CLEARLY when you meet this child you pick up right away something is wrong. But I get the whole parent denial thing and figured he would get the help in school she would not get him earlier.
Mom, on the first day of school, packed his lunch, put him in underwear and put him on the bus with no warning to the school.
Well he was placed in a developmental kindergarten for children not yet ready for kindergarten. By the beginning of October they pegged the potty training issue and started getting on mom. Mom says nothing is wrong with him. He is constipated. He is lazy. He is dumb and just doesn't want to go. She screams at him all the time. But they finally assigned an aide to him and he was put on an hourly potty schedule. Other than academic updates, I heard nothing more.
Now at the end of the year I have gotten him back. He is currently here part time for half day end of the year school this week. Next week he starts full time with me for the summer.
Grandmom comes to pick up yesterday and we are talking. I see the child go over to my games and squat down. I think nothing of it as it looks like he is checking out the games. He stands and grandmom turns to him and asks if he pooped his pants. He says no. I say he was just looking at the games on the shelf. Grandmom gives me the doubt look and turns back and sternly asks again. Yep. My now FIRST GRADER went behind the chair to pee and poop his pants and wasnt' going to say anything. SERIOUSLY?! No embarrassment. No accident and upset.
Opposite of what mom says, Grandmom says he is still having issues in school!!
Ok......I am NOT cleaning up a first grader who pees and poops his pants on purpose! Well sort of on purpose. I truly believe he has no clue that it is wrong. What almost first grader goes in their pants and has no remorse for it? But I do not have time to take him every hour nor am I going to clean that up as he goes behind a tree outside and poops/pees and keeps playing! What I do not get is how this family just shrugs a shoulder and doesn't see the red flags!
I have no idea on how to handle this one. I don't think putting him in pull ups is a good idea at his age and if he hasn't been wearing them. Nor do I want to deal with the accidents all day. Do I put in time out for going in his pants? Do I ignore like Grandmom did last night as she walked out the door with him still in the wet clothes? Do I get him to try and clean himself or I do it? AND....lesson learned from yesterday....he is will NOT be allowed in my big pool and he WILL be required to have swim pull ups for the little pool. This now places him with my daycare kids instead of the school age kids with outside water play. In truth I doubt he will mind. He clicks more with my younger kids than the older children but I feel bad too. And talking with mom will be like talking with my wall. She will say he is fine. He doesn't have accidents. It will be the Grandmom talking against the mom and the mom talking against the grandmom. I guess I will have to be demanding cause there is NO way that child is going in the big pool now! But what do I do with the whole accident/potty training schedule?! I have a full house and his sister is my screamer. I do not have time for this.
*sigh* I do not get why this mother cannot be truthful about her son!
Mom says nothing is wrong with the child. He is fine. She after all talked late. Not all kids walk on cue. Her sister works with autistic children and says there is nothing wrong with him. Grandmom is a nurse and says he is fine and the issue is the mom. CLEARLY when you meet this child you pick up right away something is wrong. But I get the whole parent denial thing and figured he would get the help in school she would not get him earlier.
Mom, on the first day of school, packed his lunch, put him in underwear and put him on the bus with no warning to the school.
Well he was placed in a developmental kindergarten for children not yet ready for kindergarten. By the beginning of October they pegged the potty training issue and started getting on mom. Mom says nothing is wrong with him. He is constipated. He is lazy. He is dumb and just doesn't want to go. She screams at him all the time. But they finally assigned an aide to him and he was put on an hourly potty schedule. Other than academic updates, I heard nothing more.
Now at the end of the year I have gotten him back. He is currently here part time for half day end of the year school this week. Next week he starts full time with me for the summer.
Grandmom comes to pick up yesterday and we are talking. I see the child go over to my games and squat down. I think nothing of it as it looks like he is checking out the games. He stands and grandmom turns to him and asks if he pooped his pants. He says no. I say he was just looking at the games on the shelf. Grandmom gives me the doubt look and turns back and sternly asks again. Yep. My now FIRST GRADER went behind the chair to pee and poop his pants and wasnt' going to say anything.
SERIOUSLY?! No embarrassment. No accident and upset.Opposite of what mom says, Grandmom says he is still having issues in school!!
Ok......I am NOT cleaning up a first grader who pees and poops his pants on purpose! Well sort of on purpose. I truly believe he has no clue that it is wrong. What almost first grader goes in their pants and has no remorse for it? But I do not have time to take him every hour nor am I going to clean that up as he goes behind a tree outside and poops/pees and keeps playing! What I do not get is how this family just shrugs a shoulder and doesn't see the red flags!
I have no idea on how to handle this one. I don't think putting him in pull ups is a good idea at his age and if he hasn't been wearing them. Nor do I want to deal with the accidents all day. Do I put in time out for going in his pants? Do I ignore like Grandmom did last night as she walked out the door with him still in the wet clothes? Do I get him to try and clean himself or I do it? AND....lesson learned from yesterday....he is will NOT be allowed in my big pool and he WILL be required to have swim pull ups for the little pool. This now places him with my daycare kids instead of the school age kids with outside water play. In truth I doubt he will mind. He clicks more with my younger kids than the older children but I feel bad too. And talking with mom will be like talking with my wall. She will say he is fine. He doesn't have accidents. It will be the Grandmom talking against the mom and the mom talking against the grandmom. I guess I will have to be demanding cause there is NO way that child is going in the big pool now! But what do I do with the whole accident/potty training schedule?! I have a full house and his sister is my screamer. I do not have time for this.
*sigh* I do not get why this mother cannot be truthful about her son!
coolconfidentme 05:43 AM 06-20-2013
So sad the MOM doesn't have his best interest at heart....
Cradle2crayons 05:52 AM 06-20-2013
All I can say is WOW. And now WOW AWESOME. (Read WOW HOLY CRAP BATMAN!)
While I'm the first to admit, I was one if those parents in denial. As a nurse, I knew all the flags. I ignored the flags for about six months. By the time my daughter was two or so it hit me like a tin of bricks and I had her assessed thinking well if nothing is wrong then ill know for sure.
I realized in day one dr visit something truly was wrong. As much as it hurt to know that my child really was going to be attached to some major abbreviations, I took all the stacks of info I was given and ran like heck with it.
While I totally get the denial, its a little hard to understand this moms denial. Hr son has been assessed. He's been in a special Ed program. They have CLEARLY informed her as to her sons issues and honestly, this is much much more than denial at this point.
IMHO, this has now turned into what they call medical neglect here. Mbasically she has the medical diagnosis part done. But it doesn't appear as if she's following medical recommendations and getting him all the help he truly needs.
Does she realize that YOU are the ONLY provider that will watch a kindergarten cld who isn't potty trained other than a specialized facility??
Have you sat down with mom and voiced that your program can't accommodate a child with this amount of special help required??
First, you have to understand, since he was in a special program, that they are probably used to handling those types of children and they have the funds to care for him one on one in school.
I'd explain to mom that he doesn't have a one on one aide here. I'd sit down with her and ask for ALL of his reports from school. That way I would know what would be expected of me. And if I couldn't reasonably comply with those plans, I'd have to term. Maybe because you have dealt with him all this time not potty trained she assumed you'd keep doing it.
Is time for a heart to heart with mom. If nothing changes, I'd term him, chancing I'd lose the screamer too. Better yet, I'd go ahead and interview to fill those positions.
Good luck, this is a tough onel
While I'm the first to admit, I was one if those parents in denial. As a nurse, I knew all the flags. I ignored the flags for about six months. By the time my daughter was two or so it hit me like a tin of bricks and I had her assessed thinking well if nothing is wrong then ill know for sure.
I realized in day one dr visit something truly was wrong. As much as it hurt to know that my child really was going to be attached to some major abbreviations, I took all the stacks of info I was given and ran like heck with it.
While I totally get the denial, its a little hard to understand this moms denial. Hr son has been assessed. He's been in a special Ed program. They have CLEARLY informed her as to her sons issues and honestly, this is much much more than denial at this point.
IMHO, this has now turned into what they call medical neglect here. Mbasically she has the medical diagnosis part done. But it doesn't appear as if she's following medical recommendations and getting him all the help he truly needs.
Does she realize that YOU are the ONLY provider that will watch a kindergarten cld who isn't potty trained other than a specialized facility??
Have you sat down with mom and voiced that your program can't accommodate a child with this amount of special help required??
First, you have to understand, since he was in a special program, that they are probably used to handling those types of children and they have the funds to care for him one on one in school.
I'd explain to mom that he doesn't have a one on one aide here. I'd sit down with her and ask for ALL of his reports from school. That way I would know what would be expected of me. And if I couldn't reasonably comply with those plans, I'd have to term. Maybe because you have dealt with him all this time not potty trained she assumed you'd keep doing it.
Is time for a heart to heart with mom. If nothing changes, I'd term him, chancing I'd lose the screamer too. Better yet, I'd go ahead and interview to fill those positions.
Good luck, this is a tough onel
CedarCreek 06:30 AM 06-20-2013
Is there anyway you can contact the school and talk to them about what you see at your house as well? Maybe that will let them know that it continues outside of school (then that will let them know that Mom isn't helpful there either)
Maybe they will talk to Mom a bit more seriously and refer her to the special needs assessment team.
Maybe they will talk to Mom a bit more seriously and refer her to the special needs assessment team.
Willow 07:19 AM 06-20-2013
Originally Posted by mrsnj:
Mom says nothing is wrong with him. He is constipated. He is lazy. He is dumb and just doesn't want to go. She screams at him all the time.
If mom is saying such horrific things and treating him so poorly openly, imagine what she's saying and doing to him in the privacy of their home Mom says nothing is wrong with him. He is constipated. He is lazy. He is dumb and just doesn't want to go. She screams at him all the time.
It's absolutely no wonder he is the way he is just based on how she obviously detests him.
Originally Posted by mrsnj:
Grandmom comes to pick up yesterday and we are talking. I see the child go over to my games and squat down. I think nothing of it as it looks like he is checking out the games. He stands and grandmom turns to him and asks if he pooped his pants. He says no. I say he was just looking at the games on the shelf. Grandmom gives me the doubt look and turns back and sternly asks again. Yep. My now FIRST GRADER went behind the chair to pee and poop his pants and wasnt' going to say anything. SERIOUSLY?! No embarrassment. No accident and upset.
His behavior is super typical of a child with both attachment and defiance disorders.....both of which are the direct result of the experiences a child has in life and parenting a child receives especially in their early years. Grandmom comes to pick up yesterday and we are talking. I see the child go over to my games and squat down. I think nothing of it as it looks like he is checking out the games. He stands and grandmom turns to him and asks if he pooped his pants. He says no. I say he was just looking at the games on the shelf. Grandmom gives me the doubt look and turns back and sternly asks again. Yep. My now FIRST GRADER went behind the chair to pee and poop his pants and wasnt' going to say anything.
SERIOUSLY?! No embarrassment. No accident and upset.Delayed training or never really training at all can also be the result of sexual abuse. It's a defense mechanism. If I'm scared, and pee or poo, I know no one will touch me.
Either way at this point it's obvious he needs intensive therapies to get to the root of his particular issues or guaranteed they'll just continue to get worse, not better.
Originally Posted by mrsnj:
Do I put in time out for going in his pants? Do I ignore like Grandmom did last night as she walked out the door with him still in the wet clothes? Do I get him to try and clean himself or I do it?
Never punish or shame for his accidents. Both will be further damaging beyond what's already been done to him.Do I put in time out for going in his pants? Do I ignore like Grandmom did last night as she walked out the door with him still in the wet clothes? Do I get him to try and clean himself or I do it?
Next time don't let grandma leave him like that. She should have cleaned him up herself. It would have been a great opportunity to see exactly how others are handling him. I'd personally almost *hope* to get a glimpse of that with mom......
I may have him help to clean himself up based on his overall attitude about the process. Base your response on his. If he is completely aloof about the whole thing I'd require a little more assistance from him to hopefully achieve some awareness. Keeping it all no big deal of course. If he is upset or you see the black cloud of fear or shame emerge take over and reassure him it's ok, you'll just keep working on it together.
Originally Posted by mrsnj:
And talking with mom will be like talking with my wall. She will say he is fine. He doesn't have accidents. It will be the Grandmom talking against the mom and the mom talking against the grandmom. I guess I will have to be demanding cause there is NO way that child is going in the big pool now! But what do I do with the whole accident/potty training schedule?!
And talking with mom will be like talking with my wall. She will say he is fine. He doesn't have accidents. It will be the Grandmom talking against the mom and the mom talking against the grandmom. I guess I will have to be demanding cause there is NO way that child is going in the big pool now! But what do I do with the whole accident/potty training schedule?!
Only you can decide what you are willing to do and what you are willing to put up with from mom.
Know for fact:
-This will not get better without acknowledgement from mom.
-This will not get better without professional and intense intervention.
-This will not get better with mom continuing to be so nasty to him.
With that you need to decide if:
-You are willing to clean up accidents for a full time first grader with a smile on your face because you know doing otherwise will be further damaging to him.
-Or not.
If I were you I would:
-Point blank tell mom he has a problem and you will no longer stand on the sidelines and simply allow this to continue.
-Point blank tell mom that if she does not get him the help he needs you will no longer provide care for him
-Point blank tell her she is not to ever call him names or belittle him anymore
-Point blank tell her that you need to be on the same page as far as consistency goes....how often you both take him, what the response is to his accidents is etc.
If mom wakes up and you decide to give it a go I'd require he come in regular underwear with plastic pant cover and a wet bag to toss soiled clothing in. I would simply remove and pitch in the bag and let mom deal with the mess at home. I'd keep a minimum of 6 changes of clothes at your house or more depending on how many hours a day he's there.
Laurel 09:25 AM 06-20-2013
Originally Posted by Willow:
If mom is saying such horrific things and treating him so poorly openly, imagine what she's saying and doing to him in the privacy of their home
It's absolutely no wonder he is the way he is just based on how she obviously detests him.
His behavior is super typical of a child with both attachment and defiance disorders.....both of which are the direct result of the experiences a child has in life and parenting a child receives especially in their early years.
Delayed training or never really training at all can also be the result of sexual abuse. It's a defense mechanism. If I'm scared, and pee or poo, I know no one will touch me.
Either way at this point it's obvious he needs intensive therapies to get to the root of his particular issues or guaranteed they'll just continue to get worse, not better.
Never punish or shame for his accidents. Both will be further damaging beyond what's already been done to him.
Next time don't let grandma leave him like that. She should have cleaned him up herself. It would have been a great opportunity to see exactly how others are handling him. I'd personally almost *hope* to get a glimpse of that with mom......
I may have him help to clean himself up based on his overall attitude about the process. Base your response on his. If he is completely aloof about the whole thing I'd require a little more assistance from him to hopefully achieve some awareness. Keeping it all no big deal of course. If he is upset or you see the black cloud of fear or shame emerge take over and reassure him it's ok, you'll just keep working on it together.
Only you can decide what you are willing to do and what you are willing to put up with from mom.
Know for fact:
-This will not get better without acknowledgement from mom.
-This will not get better without professional and intense intervention.
-This will not get better with mom continuing to be so nasty to him.
With that you need to decide if:
-You are willing to clean up accidents for a full time first grader with a smile on your face because you know doing otherwise will be further damaging to him.
-Or not.
If I were you I would:
-Point blank tell mom he has a problem and you will no longer stand on the sidelines and simply allow this to continue.
-Point blank tell mom that if she does not get him the help he needs you will no longer provide care for him
-Point blank tell her she is not to ever call him names or belittle him anymore
-Point blank tell her that you need to be on the same page as far as consistency goes....how often you both take him, what the response is to his accidents is etc.
If mom wakes up and you decide to give it a go I'd require he come in regular underwear with plastic pant cover and a wet bag to toss soiled clothing in. I would simply remove and pitch in the bag and let mom deal with the mess at home. I'd keep a minimum of 6 changes of clothes at your house or more depending on how many hours a day he's there.
If mom is saying such horrific things and treating him so poorly openly, imagine what she's saying and doing to him in the privacy of their home
It's absolutely no wonder he is the way he is just based on how she obviously detests him.
His behavior is super typical of a child with both attachment and defiance disorders.....both of which are the direct result of the experiences a child has in life and parenting a child receives especially in their early years.
Delayed training or never really training at all can also be the result of sexual abuse. It's a defense mechanism. If I'm scared, and pee or poo, I know no one will touch me.
Either way at this point it's obvious he needs intensive therapies to get to the root of his particular issues or guaranteed they'll just continue to get worse, not better.
Never punish or shame for his accidents. Both will be further damaging beyond what's already been done to him.
Next time don't let grandma leave him like that. She should have cleaned him up herself. It would have been a great opportunity to see exactly how others are handling him. I'd personally almost *hope* to get a glimpse of that with mom......
I may have him help to clean himself up based on his overall attitude about the process. Base your response on his. If he is completely aloof about the whole thing I'd require a little more assistance from him to hopefully achieve some awareness. Keeping it all no big deal of course. If he is upset or you see the black cloud of fear or shame emerge take over and reassure him it's ok, you'll just keep working on it together.
Only you can decide what you are willing to do and what you are willing to put up with from mom.
Know for fact:
-This will not get better without acknowledgement from mom.
-This will not get better without professional and intense intervention.
-This will not get better with mom continuing to be so nasty to him.
With that you need to decide if:
-You are willing to clean up accidents for a full time first grader with a smile on your face because you know doing otherwise will be further damaging to him.
-Or not.
If I were you I would:
-Point blank tell mom he has a problem and you will no longer stand on the sidelines and simply allow this to continue.
-Point blank tell mom that if she does not get him the help he needs you will no longer provide care for him
-Point blank tell her she is not to ever call him names or belittle him anymore
-Point blank tell her that you need to be on the same page as far as consistency goes....how often you both take him, what the response is to his accidents is etc.
If mom wakes up and you decide to give it a go I'd require he come in regular underwear with plastic pant cover and a wet bag to toss soiled clothing in. I would simply remove and pitch in the bag and let mom deal with the mess at home. I'd keep a minimum of 6 changes of clothes at your house or more depending on how many hours a day he's there.
I don't know anything about this but your suggestions really make a lot of sense. To me this almost sounds like neglect (his medical/psychological needs) and maybe abuse (the belitting, etc.).
I wonder if it would be wise to report this to CPS. Just thinking out loud. I suppose if they've had him assessed maybe it wouldn't be considered neglect. Can't decide.
Laurel
Starburst 09:29 AM 06-20-2013
Originally Posted by Cradle2crayons:
All I can say is WOW. And now WOW AWESOME. (Read WOW HOLY CRAP BATMAN!)
While I'm the first to admit, I was one if those parents in denial. As a nurse, I knew all the flags. I ignored the flags for about six months. By the time my daughter was two or so it hit me like a tin of bricks and I had her assessed thinking well if nothing is wrong then ill know for sure.
I realized in day one dr visit something truly was wrong. As much as it hurt to know that my child really was going to be attached to some major abbreviations, I took all the stacks of info I was given and ran like heck with it.
While I totally get the denial, its a little hard to understand this moms denial. Hr son has been assessed. He's been in a special Ed program. They have CLEARLY informed her as to her sons issues and honestly, this is much much more than denial at this point.
IMHO, this has now turned into what they call medical neglect here. Mbasically she has the medical diagnosis part done. But it doesn't appear as if she's following medical recommendations and getting him all the help he truly needs.
Does she realize that YOU are the ONLY provider that will watch a kindergarten cld who isn't potty trained other than a specialized facility??
Have you sat down with mom and voiced that your program can't accommodate a child with this amount of special help required??
First, you have to understand, since he was in a special program, that they are probably used to handling those types of children and they have the funds to care for him one on one in school.
I'd explain to mom that he doesn't have a one on one aide here. I'd sit down with her and ask for ALL of his reports from school. That way I would know what would be expected of me. And if I couldn't reasonably comply with those plans, I'd have to term. Maybe because you have dealt with him all this time not potty trained she assumed you'd keep doing it.
Is time for a heart to heart with mom. If nothing changes, I'd term him, chancing I'd lose the screamer too. Better yet, I'd go ahead and interview to fill those positions.
Good luck, this is a tough onel
All I can say is WOW. And now WOW AWESOME. (Read WOW HOLY CRAP BATMAN!)
While I'm the first to admit, I was one if those parents in denial. As a nurse, I knew all the flags. I ignored the flags for about six months. By the time my daughter was two or so it hit me like a tin of bricks and I had her assessed thinking well if nothing is wrong then ill know for sure.
I realized in day one dr visit something truly was wrong. As much as it hurt to know that my child really was going to be attached to some major abbreviations, I took all the stacks of info I was given and ran like heck with it.
While I totally get the denial, its a little hard to understand this moms denial. Hr son has been assessed. He's been in a special Ed program. They have CLEARLY informed her as to her sons issues and honestly, this is much much more than denial at this point.
IMHO, this has now turned into what they call medical neglect here. Mbasically she has the medical diagnosis part done. But it doesn't appear as if she's following medical recommendations and getting him all the help he truly needs.
Does she realize that YOU are the ONLY provider that will watch a kindergarten cld who isn't potty trained other than a specialized facility??
Have you sat down with mom and voiced that your program can't accommodate a child with this amount of special help required??
First, you have to understand, since he was in a special program, that they are probably used to handling those types of children and they have the funds to care for him one on one in school.
I'd explain to mom that he doesn't have a one on one aide here. I'd sit down with her and ask for ALL of his reports from school. That way I would know what would be expected of me. And if I couldn't reasonably comply with those plans, I'd have to term. Maybe because you have dealt with him all this time not potty trained she assumed you'd keep doing it.
Is time for a heart to heart with mom. If nothing changes, I'd term him, chancing I'd lose the screamer too. Better yet, I'd go ahead and interview to fill those positions.
Good luck, this is a tough onel
I would also add since he is in special education and you are watching him when he is out of school (if you are still willing to work with DCB/DCM and willing to do this) offer to be his advocate. I think she is in denial either because she is frustrated or because she is affraid that everyone is blaming his issues on her (like grandma) and she is affraid of the truth.
You can try asking mom if you can sit in at IEP meeting with her so that you can work with the teachers and mom to help him and so everyone is on the same page (as his former teacher you can tell the teachers what you know works for him). Let DCM know your willing to help her but you can't help them if she doesn't admit he needs help and if she can't accept that then she needs to find care somewhere else because it is neglect (not getting him the help he needs) and emotional/verbal abuse (calling him stupid/dumb/lazy) and I would report that.
ETA** any time a parent refuses to get the child the educational/medical help they need I would consider that neglect. When the director of our schools preschool program did FCC she had a migrant worker mother and the FCCP told the mom that she needs to get her son's hearing checked because he has difficulty following simple verbal instructions but the mom was a field worker and couldn't afford to take the time off to go to the doctor (I think the program does offer health insurance/child care coverage during their services) and she just kept saying "no, he's fine". So after the harvest season they left and mom never took the boy to the doctor. The next year they came back and he was having even more diffuculty and the mom still wouldn't take him to the doctor no matter how much the provider begged her. Finaly the third year he had even more difficulty the FCCP tells mom "Look, you need to take him to a doctor or I will report you to CPS for neglect" so mom finally takes him to the doctor and what do you know... he had a progressive hearing loss and has to now wear a hearing aid because he is almost completely deaf, the doctor said his hearing would have not gotten so bad so fast, if she would have taken him sooner. Moral of the story: Sometimes we have to be the voices of the children and be their advocates, even if the parent wont.
My3cents 09:37 AM 06-20-2013
says there is nothing wrong with him and he is just a 'lazy brat'.
I stopped reading at this..........
If any parent ever talked of a child in front of me like this I would go ballistic and stop the parent before they had a chance to say anymore. The hair on my arms just stood up on this one........I couldn't work with someone that thought of their own child in this way and talked of the child like this- NO Way!!! Especially if I am trying to have a serious conversation with a parent.
prob have another post because I am going to read the rest now and the responses from others....ugh!
I stopped reading at this..........
If any parent ever talked of a child in front of me like this I would go ballistic and stop the parent before they had a chance to say anymore. The hair on my arms just stood up on this one........I couldn't work with someone that thought of their own child in this way and talked of the child like this- NO Way!!! Especially if I am trying to have a serious conversation with a parent.
prob have another post because I am going to read the rest now and the responses from others....ugh!
My3cents 09:57 AM 06-20-2013
Originally Posted by Willow:
If mom is saying such horrific things and treating him so poorly openly, imagine what she's saying and doing to him in the privacy of their home
It's absolutely no wonder he is the way he is just based on how she obviously detests him.
His behavior is super typical of a child with both attachment and defiance disorders.....both of which are the direct result of the experiences a child has in life and parenting a child receives especially in their early years.
Delayed training or never really training at all can also be the result of sexual abuse. It's a defense mechanism. If I'm scared, and pee or poo, I know no one will touch me.
Either way at this point it's obvious he needs intensive therapies to get to the root of his particular issues or guaranteed they'll just continue to get worse, not better.
Never punish or shame for his accidents. Both will be further damaging beyond what's already been done to him.
Next time don't let grandma leave him like that. She should have cleaned him up herself. It would have been a great opportunity to see exactly how others are handling him. I'd personally almost *hope* to get a glimpse of that with mom......
I may have him help to clean himself up based on his overall attitude about the process. Base your response on his. If he is completely aloof about the whole thing I'd require a little more assistance from him to hopefully achieve some awareness. Keeping it all no big deal of course. If he is upset or you see the black cloud of fear or shame emerge take over and reassure him it's ok, you'll just keep working on it together.
Only you can decide what you are willing to do and what you are willing to put up with from mom.
Know for fact:
-This will not get better without acknowledgement from mom.
-This will not get better without professional and intense intervention.
-This will not get better with mom continuing to be so nasty to him.
With that you need to decide if:
-You are willing to clean up accidents for a full time first grader with a smile on your face because you know doing otherwise will be further damaging to him.
-Or not.
If I were you I would:
-Point blank tell mom he has a problem and you will no longer stand on the sidelines and simply allow this to continue.
-Point blank tell mom that if she does not get him the help he needs you will no longer provide care for him
-Point blank tell her she is not to ever call him names or belittle him anymore
-Point blank tell her that you need to be on the same page as far as consistency goes....how often you both take him, what the response is to his accidents is etc.
If mom wakes up and you decide to give it a go I'd require he come in regular underwear with plastic pant cover and a wet bag to toss soiled clothing in. I would simply remove and pitch in the bag and let mom deal with the mess at home. I'd keep a minimum of 6 changes of clothes at your house or more depending on how many hours a day he's there.
If mom is saying such horrific things and treating him so poorly openly, imagine what she's saying and doing to him in the privacy of their home
It's absolutely no wonder he is the way he is just based on how she obviously detests him.
His behavior is super typical of a child with both attachment and defiance disorders.....both of which are the direct result of the experiences a child has in life and parenting a child receives especially in their early years.
Delayed training or never really training at all can also be the result of sexual abuse. It's a defense mechanism. If I'm scared, and pee or poo, I know no one will touch me.
Either way at this point it's obvious he needs intensive therapies to get to the root of his particular issues or guaranteed they'll just continue to get worse, not better.
Never punish or shame for his accidents. Both will be further damaging beyond what's already been done to him.
Next time don't let grandma leave him like that. She should have cleaned him up herself. It would have been a great opportunity to see exactly how others are handling him. I'd personally almost *hope* to get a glimpse of that with mom......
I may have him help to clean himself up based on his overall attitude about the process. Base your response on his. If he is completely aloof about the whole thing I'd require a little more assistance from him to hopefully achieve some awareness. Keeping it all no big deal of course. If he is upset or you see the black cloud of fear or shame emerge take over and reassure him it's ok, you'll just keep working on it together.
Only you can decide what you are willing to do and what you are willing to put up with from mom.
Know for fact:
-This will not get better without acknowledgement from mom.
-This will not get better without professional and intense intervention.
-This will not get better with mom continuing to be so nasty to him.
With that you need to decide if:
-You are willing to clean up accidents for a full time first grader with a smile on your face because you know doing otherwise will be further damaging to him.
-Or not.
If I were you I would:
-Point blank tell mom he has a problem and you will no longer stand on the sidelines and simply allow this to continue.
-Point blank tell mom that if she does not get him the help he needs you will no longer provide care for him
-Point blank tell her she is not to ever call him names or belittle him anymore
-Point blank tell her that you need to be on the same page as far as consistency goes....how often you both take him, what the response is to his accidents is etc.
If mom wakes up and you decide to give it a go I'd require he come in regular underwear with plastic pant cover and a wet bag to toss soiled clothing in. I would simply remove and pitch in the bag and let mom deal with the mess at home. I'd keep a minimum of 6 changes of clothes at your house or more depending on how many hours a day he's there.
Sounds like Mom is lazy at home about taking him to the bathroom and encouraging him. She just views her child as a nuisance....how sad is that? Could be medical and I would recommend her to take him to the Dr. to make sure nothing is wrong medically that is causing him to go in his pants at his age. Dr.'s are trained to look for abuse and other things even more then we as providers are. I would tell her you need a note from his pediatrician saying that it is not a medical issue.
If working with this family is a nightmare you should consider letting them go and finding new clients to work with. One bad client can effect your other clients. I know if I came in and saw/heard a parent talk about there child like that in front of you and me, it would leave me with a bad impression and I wouldn't want my child around that type of atmosphere. I would look for new daycare. Just saying....... no I can't help it when my child goes to school and is around all different types of people but while I am paying good money I can have a say and want for my child. If it happened in the school system I would fight it too. I want to save the world too, but at some point enough is enough. It would be enough when I am trying to talk about a child that is having issues and the parents reaction is what you described.
best-
Unregistered 10:32 AM 06-20-2013
Originally Posted by mrsnj:
I have a little boy here who has been with me since he was a baby. When he came to me he was milestone delayed. Never hit his marks on time. Didn't walk until he was a good year and half. Didn't talk till he was three. By the time he was into school work, you could really tell something was wrong. I believe he is autistic. The parent (aka MOM) says there is nothing wrong with him and he is just a 'lazy brat'. I felt so bad for this child. He is such a sweet boy. I went out of my way to get him ready for kindergarten. He would pick up fast if shown what to do and with repeated learning. I knew he would pass the academic part but knew he would get pegged for speech, large/small motor AND he wasn't potty trained. All my years doing daycare I have always told nervous potty training moms "Stop worrying. It will happen. I have never sent a child to kindergarten in diapers!" Can't say that anymore!
Mom says nothing is wrong with the child. He is fine. She after all talked late. Not all kids walk on cue. Her sister works with autistic children and says there is nothing wrong with him. Grandmom is a nurse and says he is fine and the issue is the mom. CLEARLY when you meet this child you pick up right away something is wrong. But I get the whole parent denial thing and figured he would get the help in school she would not get him earlier.
Mom, on the first day of school, packed his lunch, put him in underwear and put him on the bus with no warning to the school.
Well he was placed in a developmental kindergarten for children not yet ready for kindergarten. By the beginning of October they pegged the potty training issue and started getting on mom. Mom says nothing is wrong with him. He is constipated. He is lazy. He is dumb and just doesn't want to go. She screams at him all the time. But they finally assigned an aide to him and he was put on an hourly potty schedule. Other than academic updates, I heard nothing more.
Now at the end of the year I have gotten him back. He is currently here part time for half day end of the year school this week. Next week he starts full time with me for the summer.
Grandmom comes to pick up yesterday and we are talking. I see the child go over to my games and squat down. I think nothing of it as it looks like he is checking out the games. He stands and grandmom turns to him and asks if he pooped his pants. He says no. I say he was just looking at the games on the shelf. Grandmom gives me the doubt look and turns back and sternly asks again. Yep. My now FIRST GRADER went behind the chair to pee and poop his pants and wasnt' going to say anything. SERIOUSLY?! No embarrassment. No accident and upset.
Opposite of what mom says, Grandmom says he is still having issues in school!!
Ok......I am NOT cleaning up a first grader who pees and poops his pants on purpose! Well sort of on purpose. I truly believe he has no clue that it is wrong. What almost first grader goes in their pants and has no remorse for it? But I do not have time to take him every hour nor am I going to clean that up as he goes behind a tree outside and poops/pees and keeps playing! What I do not get is how this family just shrugs a shoulder and doesn't see the red flags!
I have no idea on how to handle this one. I don't think putting him in pull ups is a good idea at his age and if he hasn't been wearing them. Nor do I want to deal with the accidents all day. Do I put in time out for going in his pants? Do I ignore like Grandmom did last night as she walked out the door with him still in the wet clothes? Do I get him to try and clean himself or I do it? AND....lesson learned from yesterday....he is will NOT be allowed in my big pool and he WILL be required to have swim pull ups for the little pool. This now places him with my daycare kids instead of the school age kids with outside water play. In truth I doubt he will mind. He clicks more with my younger kids than the older children but I feel bad too. And talking with mom will be like talking with my wall. She will say he is fine. He doesn't have accidents. It will be the Grandmom talking against the mom and the mom talking against the grandmom. I guess I will have to be demanding cause there is NO way that child is going in the big pool now! But what do I do with the whole accident/potty training schedule?! I have a full house and his sister is my screamer. I do not have time for this.
*sigh* I do not get why this mother cannot be truthful about her son!
BE BLUNT. Tell her that you KNOW he has accidents because a. grandma not only reported them but b. YOU HAVE SEEN THEM FIRST HAND. I have a little boy here who has been with me since he was a baby. When he came to me he was milestone delayed. Never hit his marks on time. Didn't walk until he was a good year and half. Didn't talk till he was three. By the time he was into school work, you could really tell something was wrong. I believe he is autistic. The parent (aka MOM) says there is nothing wrong with him and he is just a 'lazy brat'. I felt so bad for this child. He is such a sweet boy. I went out of my way to get him ready for kindergarten. He would pick up fast if shown what to do and with repeated learning. I knew he would pass the academic part but knew he would get pegged for speech, large/small motor AND he wasn't potty trained. All my years doing daycare I have always told nervous potty training moms "Stop worrying. It will happen. I have never sent a child to kindergarten in diapers!" Can't say that anymore!
Mom says nothing is wrong with the child. He is fine. She after all talked late. Not all kids walk on cue. Her sister works with autistic children and says there is nothing wrong with him. Grandmom is a nurse and says he is fine and the issue is the mom. CLEARLY when you meet this child you pick up right away something is wrong. But I get the whole parent denial thing and figured he would get the help in school she would not get him earlier.
Mom, on the first day of school, packed his lunch, put him in underwear and put him on the bus with no warning to the school.
Well he was placed in a developmental kindergarten for children not yet ready for kindergarten. By the beginning of October they pegged the potty training issue and started getting on mom. Mom says nothing is wrong with him. He is constipated. He is lazy. He is dumb and just doesn't want to go. She screams at him all the time. But they finally assigned an aide to him and he was put on an hourly potty schedule. Other than academic updates, I heard nothing more.
Now at the end of the year I have gotten him back. He is currently here part time for half day end of the year school this week. Next week he starts full time with me for the summer.
Grandmom comes to pick up yesterday and we are talking. I see the child go over to my games and squat down. I think nothing of it as it looks like he is checking out the games. He stands and grandmom turns to him and asks if he pooped his pants. He says no. I say he was just looking at the games on the shelf. Grandmom gives me the doubt look and turns back and sternly asks again. Yep. My now FIRST GRADER went behind the chair to pee and poop his pants and wasnt' going to say anything.
SERIOUSLY?! No embarrassment. No accident and upset.Opposite of what mom says, Grandmom says he is still having issues in school!!
Ok......I am NOT cleaning up a first grader who pees and poops his pants on purpose! Well sort of on purpose. I truly believe he has no clue that it is wrong. What almost first grader goes in their pants and has no remorse for it? But I do not have time to take him every hour nor am I going to clean that up as he goes behind a tree outside and poops/pees and keeps playing! What I do not get is how this family just shrugs a shoulder and doesn't see the red flags!
I have no idea on how to handle this one. I don't think putting him in pull ups is a good idea at his age and if he hasn't been wearing them. Nor do I want to deal with the accidents all day. Do I put in time out for going in his pants? Do I ignore like Grandmom did last night as she walked out the door with him still in the wet clothes? Do I get him to try and clean himself or I do it? AND....lesson learned from yesterday....he is will NOT be allowed in my big pool and he WILL be required to have swim pull ups for the little pool. This now places him with my daycare kids instead of the school age kids with outside water play. In truth I doubt he will mind. He clicks more with my younger kids than the older children but I feel bad too. And talking with mom will be like talking with my wall. She will say he is fine. He doesn't have accidents. It will be the Grandmom talking against the mom and the mom talking against the grandmom. I guess I will have to be demanding cause there is NO way that child is going in the big pool now! But what do I do with the whole accident/potty training schedule?! I have a full house and his sister is my screamer. I do not have time for this.
*sigh* I do not get why this mother cannot be truthful about her son!
Tell her that there is something wrong, and if she refuses to get him seen/evaluated and continues to be in denial and assuming he's just being lazy, then that is on her and you won't put up with it in YOUR daycare. Let her know that because she's refusing treatment, and calling him names, that she has 1 week to get him an appointment before you both quit and turn her in for neglect. Sorry, but it is NOT normal for a 1st grader to behave this way. I have a child who has a bowel disease and maybe ONCE in a while has an accident but not to the point he doesn't care.
Laurel 10:49 AM 06-20-2013
Originally Posted by My3cents:
Sounds like Mom is lazy at home about taking him to the bathroom and encouraging him. She just views her child as a nuisance....how sad is that?
Could be medical and I would recommend her to take him to the Dr. to make sure nothing is wrong medically that is causing him to go in his pants at his age. Dr.'s are trained to look for abuse and other things even more then we as providers are. I would tell her you need a note from his pediatrician saying that it is not a medical issue.
If working with this family is a nightmare you should consider letting them go and finding new clients to work with. One bad client can effect your other clients. I know if I came in and saw/heard a parent talk about there child like that in front of you and me, it would leave me with a bad impression and I wouldn't want my child around that type of atmosphere. I would look for new daycare. Just saying....... no I can't help it when my child goes to school and is around all different types of people but while I am paying good money I can have a say and want for my child. If it happened in the school system I would fight it too. I want to save the world too, but at some point enough is enough. It would be enough when I am trying to talk about a child that is having issues and the parents reaction is what you described.
best-
Sounds like Mom is lazy at home about taking him to the bathroom and encouraging him. She just views her child as a nuisance....how sad is that? Could be medical and I would recommend her to take him to the Dr. to make sure nothing is wrong medically that is causing him to go in his pants at his age. Dr.'s are trained to look for abuse and other things even more then we as providers are. I would tell her you need a note from his pediatrician saying that it is not a medical issue.
If working with this family is a nightmare you should consider letting them go and finding new clients to work with. One bad client can effect your other clients. I know if I came in and saw/heard a parent talk about there child like that in front of you and me, it would leave me with a bad impression and I wouldn't want my child around that type of atmosphere. I would look for new daycare. Just saying....... no I can't help it when my child goes to school and is around all different types of people but while I am paying good money I can have a say and want for my child. If it happened in the school system I would fight it too. I want to save the world too, but at some point enough is enough. It would be enough when I am trying to talk about a child that is having issues and the parents reaction is what you described.
best-
Great idea to have a doctor's note hoping he will notice abuse if it exists.
Laurel
EntropyControlSpecialist 10:49 AM 06-20-2013
Originally Posted by Starburst:
I would also add since he is in special education and you are watching him when he is out of school (if you are still willing to work with DCB/DCM and willing to do this) offer to be his advocate. I think she is in denial either because she is frustrated or because she is affraid that everyone is blaming his issues on her (like grandma) and she is affraid of the truth.
You can try asking mom if you can sit in at IEP meeting with her so that you can work with the teachers and mom to help him and so everyone is on the same page (as his former teacher you can tell the teachers what you know works for him). Let DCM know your willing to help her but you can't help them if she doesn't admit he needs help and if she can't accept that then she needs to find care somewhere else because it is neglect (not getting him the help he needs) and emotional/verbal abuse (calling him stupid/dumb/lazy) and I would report that.
ETA** any time a parent refuses to get the child the educational/medical help they need I would consider that neglect. When the director of our schools preschool program did FCC she had a migrant worker mother and the FCCP told the mom that she needs to get her son's hearing checked because he has difficulty following simple verbal instructions but the mom was a field worker and couldn't afford to take the time off to go to the doctor (I think the program does offer health insurance/child care coverage during their services) and she just kept saying "no, he's fine". So after the harvest season they left and mom never took the boy to the doctor. The next year they came back and he was having even more diffuculty and the mom still wouldn't take him to the doctor no matter how much the provider begged her. Finaly the third year he had even more difficulty the FCCP tells mom "Look, you need to take him to a doctor or I will report you to CPS for neglect" so mom finally takes him to the doctor and what do you know... he had a progressive hearing loss and has to now wear a hearing aid because he is almost completely deaf, the doctor said his hearing would have not gotten so bad so fast, if she would have taken him sooner. Moral of the story: Sometimes we have to be the voices of the children and be their advocates, even if the parent wont.
It isn't even a matter of opinion. It IS neglect. It was one of the things that helped us win our son in a private adoption matter. Everyone said we would never get him because it wasn't through CPS (CPS in my area is horrific and does nothing despite witnessing educational neglect, medical neglect, physical abuse, verbal abuse, unsanitary living arrangements, etc.). I would also add since he is in special education and you are watching him when he is out of school (if you are still willing to work with DCB/DCM and willing to do this) offer to be his advocate. I think she is in denial either because she is frustrated or because she is affraid that everyone is blaming his issues on her (like grandma) and she is affraid of the truth.
You can try asking mom if you can sit in at IEP meeting with her so that you can work with the teachers and mom to help him and so everyone is on the same page (as his former teacher you can tell the teachers what you know works for him). Let DCM know your willing to help her but you can't help them if she doesn't admit he needs help and if she can't accept that then she needs to find care somewhere else because it is neglect (not getting him the help he needs) and emotional/verbal abuse (calling him stupid/dumb/lazy) and I would report that.
ETA** any time a parent refuses to get the child the educational/medical help they need I would consider that neglect. When the director of our schools preschool program did FCC she had a migrant worker mother and the FCCP told the mom that she needs to get her son's hearing checked because he has difficulty following simple verbal instructions but the mom was a field worker and couldn't afford to take the time off to go to the doctor (I think the program does offer health insurance/child care coverage during their services) and she just kept saying "no, he's fine". So after the harvest season they left and mom never took the boy to the doctor. The next year they came back and he was having even more diffuculty and the mom still wouldn't take him to the doctor no matter how much the provider begged her. Finaly the third year he had even more difficulty the FCCP tells mom "Look, you need to take him to a doctor or I will report you to CPS for neglect" so mom finally takes him to the doctor and what do you know... he had a progressive hearing loss and has to now wear a hearing aid because he is almost completely deaf, the doctor said his hearing would have not gotten so bad so fast, if she would have taken him sooner. Moral of the story: Sometimes we have to be the voices of the children and be their advocates, even if the parent wont.
Anywho, Willow provided some great advice.
Heidi 10:59 AM 06-20-2013
I agree with the PP's who said you need to confront mom. She needs a wake-up call. Poor little man..
mrsnj 12:29 PM 06-20-2013
I don't find the family horrible at all. Actually the child is about as sweet as they come. He gives me no issues normally. I feel actually bad for him because I don't think his mom is the best of parents. I personally do not have an issue with the mother face to face even. She pays on time and picks up on time. Mom is friendly. BUT.........I know she yells at the child because others tell me. I know she is two faced and what I visually see is not the truth. The grandmom is a friend at church and she informs me on what goes on. I know from what others have told me. I know the dad is the one who takes care of him. Bathes him, feeds him, etc. Mom doesn't seem to have an attachment to him. Which is sad cause he really is the best kid. I think mom is lazy. IMO she denies because to have a special needs child is to have work as a parent. She doesn't want more than he already gives her.
The lazy brat comment did come to me face to face. The child didn't hear it. He was off running around. The mom said that to me right before school. It was then I knew she would not get him the help he needed. And truth be....shhhh...I knew some people in the school system as I have a learning disabled child of my own and pulled some strings to get him noticed at the kinder testing which is how he ended up in the special needs kinder in the first place. I knew she would say he is fine, put him in underwear and send him off and that wasn't fair to him. He is highly functional. My heart broke when she said he was just a lazy brat. I could not sit back and do nothing. I knew if he slipped in on academics alone, it would be MONTHS if not a year before he got the help he needed and an IEP. And God bless the poor unsuspecting teacher who got him!
That said.....
So I should talk with the mom about the pool issues and ask for the swim pants. Ask for extra clothes. Don't punish but do get him to help clean up.
Now what if it continues or becomes frequent? Would you ask for the pull ups or just continue on with him helping to clean up etc? I can send instead of him going on his own. I don't normally tell me SA kids to go potty but I do my prek kids at certain times of the day. I cannot do the every hour deal
But I can send him with the other kids like before outside play and after lunch, after naps,etc.
Any other ideas??
The lazy brat comment did come to me face to face. The child didn't hear it. He was off running around. The mom said that to me right before school. It was then I knew she would not get him the help he needed. And truth be....shhhh...I knew some people in the school system as I have a learning disabled child of my own and pulled some strings to get him noticed at the kinder testing which is how he ended up in the special needs kinder in the first place. I knew she would say he is fine, put him in underwear and send him off and that wasn't fair to him. He is highly functional. My heart broke when she said he was just a lazy brat. I could not sit back and do nothing. I knew if he slipped in on academics alone, it would be MONTHS if not a year before he got the help he needed and an IEP. And God bless the poor unsuspecting teacher who got him!
That said.....
So I should talk with the mom about the pool issues and ask for the swim pants. Ask for extra clothes. Don't punish but do get him to help clean up.
Now what if it continues or becomes frequent? Would you ask for the pull ups or just continue on with him helping to clean up etc? I can send instead of him going on his own. I don't normally tell me SA kids to go potty but I do my prek kids at certain times of the day. I cannot do the every hour deal
But I can send him with the other kids like before outside play and after lunch, after naps,etc. Any other ideas??
Sugar Magnolia 12:47 PM 06-20-2013
I didn't read the other responses. I hope you got.some helpful tips if you are going to keep him.
But I would not keep him, I'm.so very sorry to have to say that. I think it's a heart breaking situation, I feel awful for the little guy. Please follow your heart, but honestly, I think your heart will be broken if you keep him..
I hope both you and the public school system is on full alert for neglect and abuse as well.
But I would not keep him, I'm.so very sorry to have to say that. I think it's a heart breaking situation, I feel awful for the little guy. Please follow your heart, but honestly, I think your heart will be broken if you keep him..
I hope both you and the public school system is on full alert for neglect and abuse as well.