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Unregistered 07:47 AM 07-23-2014
I have a dcg 4 who is constantly playing with her private areas. I have to send her to the bathroom to wash her hands and redirect play several times a day. She wears sundresses a lot so I have asked mom to put a pair of shorts underneath. However, each time dcg potties she comes out naked and spreads her legs and gets busy. Its only a minute or so as I am supervising and try to catch her each time she starts out of the bathroom, but if I am helping another child with the potty she always manages a minute or so before I notice. Also if she is sitting to play, say building blocks or something, before you know it, hand is up her shorts. Yesterday I was reading a book to the kids and my son asked me what dcg was doing. I looked over and sure enough she was doing that on my couch. It really bothers me, but I was trying to handle it discreetly. I have mentioned it to mom several times. She says she tells her she can do it but she has to go to her own room and not do it front of anyone. She feels telling her not to do it will make her do it more. I was concerned before, but now that my 3 y.o. son is asking about what she's doing I am just really ready to find a solution. If they let her do that at home I guess that's their business, but I don't want her doing it here whether she's alone in the bathroom or not. Have you ever had a situation like this and how did you handle it? Thanks.
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debbiedoeszip 07:55 AM 07-23-2014
I would just keep redirecting, getting her to wash her hands, telling her that touching privates is a private activity, etc. This is normal and a phase. Keep her busy! What activities engage her enough that she doesn't play with herself? Keep her doing those things until this passes.
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nannyde 08:10 AM 07-23-2014
Originally Posted by debbiedoeszip:
I would just keep redirecting, getting her to wash her hands, telling her that touching privates is a private activity, etc. This is normal and a phase. Keep her busy! What activities engage her enough that she doesn't play with herself? Keep her doing those things until this passes.
It's not normal.
It's ridiculous. Please don't think this is directed toward you.

I'm so over the "it's normal".

A four year old shouldn't need this kind of stimulation. She needs to be running cars, playing blocks, coloring. She doesn't need one second of her legs sprawled naked and stimulating herself.

Stop telling kids to do this in private. They hear the part that says you can do it, not the rest.

Tell her to KNOCK IT OFF now. Do NOT do it again in my house. If she has to go into backwards footed pajamas to block her urge then that's what needs to happen.

I have never once had a kid under five that masturbates. I don't allow escalation and they have zero reason to self stimulate in my home.

This won't pass. In fact, if she gets to do this at this young age she is going to take longer and longer to feel stimulated. She's not going to be happy with real life because NOTHING other than high end activities wall to wall and treat food is going to pleasure her like this does.

These parents need to do a serious investigation to make sure this kid hasn't been molested or filmed doing this. When she is SO bold to keep doing it when she has been told no then her urge is strong. If she is sneaking around doing it then something else is going on.

I swear we have normalized every fricken behavior these kids put out now. Now this too... open public masturbation of a four year old.
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Indoorvoice 08:27 AM 07-23-2014
I have to respectfully disagree. It is well known that some children will start to explore themselves between 2 and 6. It makes us uncomfortable because we are looking at the behavior through adult eyes, but it is not necessarily sexual. She is discovering feelings. I would definitely talk to the parents and tell them that she is exploring herself in public and that they need to set the boundaries with her. Also, maybe she had some sort of infection going on that is making her feel weird. The parents need to address that. Let them know that you will tell her she is not allowed to do that at your house. I know several parents of little girls including my own ( who is most definitely not abused) have this issue. We have all had success saying "no not in public".
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Indoorvoice 08:34 AM 07-23-2014
Sorry, I did re-read that you have talked to the parents. Perhaps she needs privileges taken away at home when she does it. Not for the act itself, but for disobeying the rule to not do that in public. I think at 4 she is old enough to understand.
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NightOwl 08:41 AM 07-23-2014
Dr first to rule out an infection, especially a yeast infection. Yes, kids get them very young. If there's nothing physically wrong with her, then NO, this is not normal. It's normal to occasionally touch themselves there, to explore and discover what's down there, but many times a day for days or weeks on end, NO. Something is going on here that shouldn't be. Someone has abused her, coached her, or something similar. Totally agreeing with nannyde here.
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MarinaVanessa 08:43 AM 07-23-2014
I say that it's "typical" behavior for some children this age because of what Debbie said I however don't consider it "normal" anymore. I see it like biting, hitting, pushing and tantrums. Sure it's typical behavior for children this age however it is still not appropriate for daycare.

DCM allowing it at home will not make things easier on you but I would handle this the same as if it were a child that was biting. I would wash the child's hands after catching her doing it (every single time, and I WOULD DO IT for her so that this does not become fun play-with-water time but rather a chore) and direct the child to another activity. I would shadow this child at all times and this child would have no chance to play by herself at all. She would need to be within arms reach at all times. She is not allowed to wear skirts or dresses anymore. She would be required to wear pants or longer shorts, and not thin stretchy ones that she would be able to fondle herself over her clothes with. I would even consider putting her in something like a diaper so that she could not stimulate herself. She would not be allowed to be in the bathroom alone.

I would set a realistic limit of how many times I could catch her doing it and set hard limits for things that are absolutely not appropriate (such as undressing and fondling herself openly where the other children see her lady parts) before I would call home and have her picked up. I would write up a
plan of action with my expectations and an explanation about why this is not appropriate in group care (how are the other parents feeling about this child openly touching herself so frequently? How do they feel about the possibility of their child imitating this behavior? How do they feel about the possibility of their child thinking that it's ok to do this to another child?). I would require a physical check up to eliminate the possibility of an infection. I would include all of the new guidelines from above and set a realistic deadline to see improvement and have DCM sign it agreeing to pick DCG up if she did it X amount of times in a day or crossed a hard limit with the possibility of termination if there is no improvement at the end of the deadline. I would call licensing and report this behavior and start keeping a log of each time she even attempted to stimulate herself and include any and all conversation that I'd have with DCM about what her stance is on the behavior. At the end of the "probationary period" I would discuss progress and if necessary extend the plan of action if there are improvements or terminate if there are none or if the behavior worsens.

Just like biting, hitting, spitting, kicking, tantrums and other aggressive behavior ... yes it's typical but you wouldn't allow it in your daycare, you would try to change it and guide the child to a better way to handle their behavior. I see this as no different.

You'll be in a whole heap of trouble if another child goes home and tells mom and dad what DCG is doing and they get upset that you are, in essence "allowing" this behavior to continue. Licensing (if you are licenced/registered) and CPS can get involved. Things are much different when you are a provider than when you are a parent. Parents get some leeway with parenting ... providers not so much. Just some food for thought.

It mightbe "typical" behavior however "typical" doesn't mean "appropriate" for daycare.
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SilverSabre25 08:45 AM 07-23-2014
I was going to suggest a doctor's visit too, to rule out yeast infection or UTi or something.
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Michelle 08:46 AM 07-23-2014
I have 8 month olds that grab themselves the second their diaper comes off!
I think it's natural curiosity and should not be done in daycare but not shamed either
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SilverSabre25 08:46 AM 07-23-2014
Also my phrasing for redirecting that stuff has become "not at daycare".
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Meyou 08:47 AM 07-23-2014
I have good success with, "Stop. That is not for daycare." This doesn't interfere with the parents rules at home but it ends the behavior quickly. It's no different here from standing on a chair, running in the house, leaving the yard etc. You just don't do it here.
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MarinaVanessa 09:12 AM 07-23-2014
Originally Posted by Michelle:
I think it's natural curiosity and should not be done in daycare but not shamed either
Definitely no shaming! A simple "We have germs there Suzie and germs are not for sharing. Let's go wash your hands" with a smile and light voice is sufficient.

When young DCK's put stuff in their mouths I just say "Out of your mouth Suzie" and that works so even a "Move your hands please Suzie" would work if done over the clothes and then move on. I'd also make sure to remove any items for cleaning just like you would if they were mouthed toys "These toys have germs now so I need to clean them before we can play with them" and redirect to something else.

I think mom's acceptance of it at home might be encouraging it because she is allowing it (if it isnt an infection). It's easier for mom to redirect her to her room to do it in private but at daycare you can't provide that luxury KWIM? And she's not understanding that she shouldn't be doing this at daycare.
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Play Care 09:24 AM 07-23-2014
Originally Posted by Meyou:
I have good success with, "Stop. That is not for daycare." This doesn't interfere with the parents rules at home but it ends the behavior quickly. It's no different here from standing on a chair, running in the house, leaving the yard etc. You just don't do it here.

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Unregistered 09:26 AM 07-23-2014
It's not an infection b/c I sent her home/ to the dr. a couple weeks ago thinking it was a uti. She kept saying it burned when she peed and the dr said its definitely not an infection. Most likely she has irritated it b/c of touching so much. I understand it is "typical" to have a phase like this, but it is definitely not appropriate. This happened occasionally for about a year, but it only turned into an all the time thing a few weeks ago. I like the idea of saying, "not at daycare," but its so frustrating to have to redirect and wash her hands multiple times every day. We may have to come up with a behavior plan if this continues like one of you mentioned. Its definitely not ok for the other kids to be exposed to this behavior.
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coolconfidentme 09:30 AM 07-23-2014
This child could be the victim of abuse like Wednesday said. I use the be a police officer & worked in child abuse/neglect division. Victims of abuse may touch themselves where others have touched them. Sad but true.
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SilverSabre25 09:39 AM 07-23-2014
has she recently been made to stop sucking her thumb/chewing nails/other "stimming" type habits?

What about using a pacifier clip to attach something like a swatch of silky fabric or a teether or something and redirect her to that?
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MrsSteinel'sHouse 09:44 AM 07-23-2014
Originally Posted by coolconfidentme:
This child could be the victim of abuse like Wednesday said. I use the be a police officer & worked in child abuse/neglect division. Victims of abuse may touch themselves where others have touched them. Sad but true.
This- I would call CPS, it is not normal and is a huge sign of abuse.
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Michelle 10:02 AM 07-23-2014
Originally Posted by MrsSteinel'sHouse:
This- I would call CPS, it is not normal and is a huge sign of abuse.
it is not a huge sign of abuse in and of itself!
I don't think a provider should overreact like this
maybe ask some questions and watch for other behavior of abuse but this is very normal curiosity and should just be told " not at school"
mention it to mom and be aware if child fears certain people or watches inappropriate shows at home etc.
jeez
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KiddieCahoots 10:13 AM 07-23-2014
Originally Posted by Wednesday:
Dr first to rule out an infection, especially a yeast infection. Yes, kids get them very young. If there's nothing physically wrong with her, then NO, this is not normal. It's normal to occasionally touch themselves there, to explore and discover what's down there, but many times a day for days or weeks on end, NO. Something is going on here that shouldn't be. Someone has abused her, coached her, or something similar. Totally agreeing with nannyde here.

Call CPS!
Children at the age of 4 yrs start to develop a sense of self conscience. My 3yr olds get embarrassed to go to time out. Touching, exploring, and masturbating themselves is normal, constantly masturbating themselves raw and spreading their naked legs in public are learned behaviors of abuse.
You are describing children that I have known and worked with that were severely sexually abused.
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tehck_1013 10:21 AM 07-23-2014
I am really grossed out by this. I absolutely would not allow this in my home, and most certainly not in front of the rest of the kids in my care. I completely agree with nannyde on this one. There's a difference between grabbing yourself when your diaper is open to feel whats there (like babies do) and regularly touching yourself because it feels good.... I wouldn't shame her, but I just wouldn't allow it. I would nicely tell her that she needs to stop, and that she cannot do that at miss _____'s house at all. I don't care whether her parents are completely okay with her laying around naked going to town or not (which is completely disturbing) but she will know I do not tolerate it here. smh.

You say mom tells her to go to her room to do it, so why does dcg think it's perfectly acceptable to do it on the couch, or to strip and do it wherever she is...? I'd assume the mom is lying and just not doing anything about it, and would wonder what kind of weird stuff the girl is being exposed to at home.

I'd consider terming if she could not/will not control herself.
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debbiedoeszip 10:30 AM 07-23-2014
Masturbation, amongst all age groups, is normal (all the way from babies to centenarians). It's not socially acceptable when done in public, but neither are many other behaviours that children exhibit that are also perfectly normal. I realize that many, if not most, will find it incredibly uncomfortable to see a child doing this (count me in), but that doesn't make it less normal a behaviour.

Now, that doesn't mean that normal is synonymous with socially acceptable. It's our job (50 or so hours per week) to teach these small children how to behave. They don't come to us already socialized. And I'm not going to treat the behaviour like it's some kind of sex crime (nor do I believe that it, in the absence of any other kind of sexual behaviour, is indicative of sexual abuse).

I don't like the idea of backwards pjs for a 4yo. The idea is to correct without shaming, and making a 4yo wear pjs instead of regular clothes (especially if there are any other kids their age) might cause shame. Overalls might be a better choice, though she'll need assistance with them when she needs to use the toilet. Other than that, help her find an acceptable activity that is as fun (or more fun) than playing with herself.
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debbiedoeszip 10:32 AM 07-23-2014
Originally Posted by KiddieCahoots:

Call CPS!
Children at the age of 4 yrs start to develop a sense of self conscience. My 3yr olds get embarrassed to go to time out. Touching, exploring, and masturbating themselves is normal, constantly masturbating themselves raw and spreading their naked legs in public are learned behaviors of abuse.
You are describing children that I have known and worked with that were severely sexually abused.
Not all of them. Some are delayed in that area. My DS, who has ADHD and some other issues, had no shame for a long time. He wasn't abused, he just wasn't typical in that area.
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debbiedoeszip 10:33 AM 07-23-2014
Originally Posted by tehck_1013:
I am really grossed out by this. I absolutely would not allow this in my home, and most certainly not in front of the rest of the kids in my care. I completely agree with nannyde on this one. There's a difference between grabbing yourself when your diaper is open to feel whats there (like babies do) and regularly touching yourself because it feels good.... I wouldn't shame her, but I just wouldn't allow it. I would nicely tell her that she needs to stop, and that she cannot do that at miss _____'s house at all. I don't care whether her parents are completely okay with her laying around naked going to town or not (which is completely disturbing) but she will know I do not tolerate it here. smh.

You say mom tells her to go to her room to do it, so why does dcg think it's perfectly acceptable to do it on the couch, or to strip and do it wherever she is...? I'd assume the mom is lying and just not doing anything about it, and would wonder what kind of weird stuff the girl is being exposed to at home.

I'd consider terming if she could not/will not control herself.
Holy cow! Who said they were allowing this? Um, ewwwww!
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debbiedoeszip 10:39 AM 07-23-2014
Originally Posted by tehck_1013:
I am really grossed out by this. I absolutely would not allow this in my home, and most certainly not in front of the rest of the kids in my care. I completely agree with nannyde on this one. There's a difference between grabbing yourself when your diaper is open to feel whats there (like babies do) and regularly touching yourself because it feels good.... I wouldn't shame her, but I just wouldn't allow it. I would nicely tell her that she needs to stop, and that she cannot do that at miss _____'s house at all. I don't care whether her parents are completely okay with her laying around naked going to town or not (which is completely disturbing) but she will know I do not tolerate it here. smh.

You say mom tells her to go to her room to do it, so why does dcg think it's perfectly acceptable to do it on the couch, or to strip and do it wherever she is...? I'd assume the mom is lying and just not doing anything about it, and would wonder what kind of weird stuff the girl is being exposed to at home.

I'd consider terming if she could not/will not control herself.
Ok, I just read through all the posts and not a single person has said that they would allow a daycare child, or any child, to masturbate openly at daycare (or anywhere in public). Apparently, my use of the word normal has confused many people into thinking that I might allow this. "Normal" isn't synonymous with "allowed" or even "acceptable".
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Michelle 10:42 AM 07-23-2014
Originally Posted by debbiedoeszip:
Masturbation, amongst all age groups, is normal (all the way from babies to centenarians). It's not socially acceptable when done in public, but neither are many other behaviours that children exhibit that are also perfectly normal. I realize that many, if not most, will find it incredibly uncomfortable to see a child doing this (count me in), but that doesn't make it less normal a behaviour.

Now, that doesn't mean that normal is synonymous with socially acceptable. It's our job (50 or so hours per week) to teach these small children how to behave. They don't come to us already socialized. And I'm not going to treat the behaviour like it's some kind of sex crime (nor do I believe that it, in the absence of any other kind of sexual behaviour, is indicative of sexual abuse).

I don't like the idea of backwards pjs for a 4yo. The idea is to correct without shaming, and making a 4yo wear pjs instead of regular clothes (especially if there are any other kids their age) might cause shame. Overalls might be a better choice, though she'll need assistance with them when she needs to use the toilet. Other than that, help her find an acceptable activity that is as fun (or more fun) than playing with herself.
exactly

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tehck_1013 10:46 AM 07-23-2014
Originally Posted by debbiedoeszip:
Ok, I just read through all the posts and not a single person has said that they would allow a daycare child, or any child, to masturbate openly at daycare (or anywhere in public). Apparently, my use of the word normal has confused many people into thinking that I might allow this. "Normal" isn't synonymous with "allowed" or even "acceptable".
Forgive me, but I am a little confused as to what you were trying to say here. The first sentence makes it seem as if you are appalled that nobody permits this behavior at daycare. But then your second sentence reaffirms that normal does not mean allowed. Unless you were just correcting your second to last post in which case what you said would make sense. Sorry. Anyways, I never said the behavior was not normal... just that I wouldn't allow it. I also wouldn't just term for no reason. I really would try to get her to stop. I'd give it time, but like I said, WOULD consider terming if she couldn't control herself. It would come down to the appropriateness and other children being exposed.
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KayB 10:47 AM 07-23-2014
Originally Posted by Meyou:
I have good success with, "Stop. That is not for daycare." This doesn't interfere with the parents rules at home but it ends the behavior quickly. It's no different here from standing on a chair, running in the house, leaving the yard etc. You just don't do it here.
I LOVE what Meyou said! I am definitely going to try that and see if it works with some of the stuff my kids do here!
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Blackcat31 10:48 AM 07-23-2014
Originally Posted by debbiedoeszip:
Ok, I just read through all the posts and not a single person has said that they would allow a daycare child, or any child, to masturbate openly at daycare (or anywhere in public). Apparently, my use of the word normal has confused many people into thinking that I might allow this. "Normal" isn't synonymous with "allowed" or even "acceptable".
I also do not think it is something we need to immediately call CPS over....

It's a self soothing mechanism for some children. The pleasure is no different than sucking their thumb or stroking the satin edge of a blanket or any other sensory seeking behavior.

I had a 4 yr old in care that would frequently masturbate during nap time.

She was not a victim of sexual abuse and although she came from a pretty dysfunctional family, it was nothing more than an attempt to self-soothe.

With a bit of re-direction, assistance and support from both myself and her parent, the child eventually learned it was not okay to do at daycare.

Apparently she continued to have this behavior though well after leaving my care but was perfectly content to limit it to her own bedroom at home.

Child is now 7 and mom tells me she has since stopped although she (mom) is not aware of when she stopped since she only did it in her own room.
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MarinaVanessa 10:52 AM 07-23-2014
I have been to CPS trainings and and all of them (in CA) I was told NOT to question the parent or the child because you could accidentally put ideas into the child's head while fishing for answers making it more difficult for the authorities to make a case in the instance of abuse if there really is abuse or having a false case opened if there is no abuse. In some cases of abuse speaking and questioning the child or parent can alert the parent/abuser that you are suspicious and most often than not the child is pulled from the program and moved which isn't ideal.

It is recommended that you call licensing and report to them what you have observed and ask what their recommendation is. Licensing may simply file sk you to note it and file a report and then to report back later or they may immediately recommend that you report it to CPS. They also say that if you are unsure of whether to report or not you can simply call CPS and tell them what you are observing and they can determine whether or not it reportable and they will tell you what to do and what not to do.

Simply touching oneself is not a sure sign that the child is being abused but can be an indicator. You don't know if this child is doing so because she saw someone do it somewhere (at home or on tv), someone is doing it to her or simply because is started as an innocent once in a while thing and has now become a regular everyday thing because no one has curbed it yet but I would def call at least licensing to at least ask. Remember, child care providers are mandated reporters and it doesn't hurt to call and ask for advice. If anything licensing can recommend to you how to approach the situation and what you should do about it if it's deemed that it's not serious enough to be reported to CPS or to have an investigation opened. They may be a great resource and even motivator for DCM to curb the behavior (if it's innocent behavior) if you can say "my licensing analyst said I have to handle this situation like this ...".

I'm curious to know if this happens in public with mom and dad like at other peoples houses, stores etc. and what the parent's reactions are
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Blackcat31 10:52 AM 07-23-2014
Some helpful articles about this

http://www.childrenshealthnetwork.or...asturb_hhg.htm

http://www.parenting.com/article/ask...n-preschoolers

http://www.healthychildren.org/Engli...turbation.aspx

http://www.creators.com/advice/sylvi...ool-girls.html
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Hunni Bee 11:01 AM 07-23-2014
Originally Posted by tehck_1013:

You say mom tells her to go to her room to do it, so why does dcg think it's perfectly acceptable to do it on the couch, or to strip and do it wherever she is...? I'd assume the mom is lying and just not doing anything about it, and would wonder what kind of weird stuff the girl is being exposed to at home.

I'd consider terming if she could not/will not control herself.
^^ This. Its not so much that she's doing it, many kids (I notice it a BUNCH with girls) do it, to soothe themselves to sleep or just because its theirs and they like it.

But, honestly, with all the kids I've seen do it who had nothing going on, it was PRIVATE. (as private as a little kid can get) Subtly under the covers at nap, sometimes in the bathroom, etc. NOT removing clothing, coming out into the main room naked and openly touching in front of other people.

That's for me where it goes into not okay.
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debbiedoeszip 11:02 AM 07-23-2014
Originally Posted by tehck_1013:
Forgive me, but I am a little confused as to what you were trying to say here. The first sentence makes it seem as if you are appalled that nobody permits this behavior at daycare. But then your second sentence reaffirms that normal does not mean allowed. Unless you were just correcting your second to last post in which case what you said would make sense. Sorry. Anyways, I never said the behavior was not normal... just that I wouldn't allow it. I also wouldn't just term for no reason. I really would try to get her to stop. I'd give it time, but like I said, WOULD consider terming if she couldn't control herself. It would come down to the appropriateness and other children being exposed.
When I read your post, I got the idea that you were suggesting that anyone who wasn't shocked and appalled by the behaviour was also allowing it to happen. No one so far has suggested that they would allow it, even if they weren't grossed out by it. I'm very uncomfortable with the behaviour, but not grossed out (because I understand that it's normal, and that not all kids that age have the right level of social skill and/or impulse control to stop right away).
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nannyde 11:02 AM 07-23-2014
Originally Posted by debbiedoeszip:
Masturbation, amongst all age groups, is normal (all the way from babies to centenarians). It's not socially acceptable when done in public, but neither are many other behaviours that children exhibit that are also perfectly normal. I realize that many, if not most, will find it incredibly uncomfortable to see a child doing this (count me in), but that doesn't make it less normal a behaviour.

Now, that doesn't mean that normal is synonymous with socially acceptable. It's our job (50 or so hours per week) to teach these small children how to behave. They don't come to us already socialized. And I'm not going to treat the behaviour like it's some kind of sex crime (nor do I believe that it, in the absence of any other kind of sexual behaviour, is indicative of sexual abuse).

I don't like the idea of backwards pjs for a 4yo. The idea is to correct without shaming, and making a 4yo wear pjs instead of regular clothes (especially if there are any other kids their age) might cause shame. Overalls might be a better choice, though she'll need assistance with them when she needs to use the toilet. Other than that, help her find an acceptable activity that is as fun (or more fun) than playing with herself.
Saying no and putting in a block isn't any more like shaming than it is like celebrating. You can say the word shame and I can say the word frog.

Backwards jammies makes skin to skin contact impossible. Overalls can easily be gone thru on both waist sides and the front buckles.

Block her and get three kinds of DEAD SERIOUS that she is to STOP IT... don't do it again ONE TIME in my house. If she can't mind the adult she needs to be terminated. She can rock a daycare providers world. She's a danger to the business. She's a danger to your freedom.

Any four year old who has been told to stop it and continues to do it constantly and brazenly open is too risky to have under your roof. Tell the other parents about a kid who is naked masturbating in front of their kid and see how many say... well just tell her it's a private affair and to go to a private area.... and don't worry... It's normal.

Ummm that would be none.
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debbiedoeszip 11:03 AM 07-23-2014
Originally Posted by Meyou:
I have good success with, "Stop. That is not for daycare." This doesn't interfere with the parents rules at home but it ends the behavior quickly. It's no different here from standing on a chair, running in the house, leaving the yard etc. You just don't do it here.
I can see how this would be both effective and non-shaming. Nice!
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Heidi 11:04 AM 07-23-2014
Originally Posted by Unregistered:
It's not an infection b/c I sent her home/ to the dr. a couple weeks ago thinking it was a uti. She kept saying it burned when she peed and the dr said its definitely not an infection. Most likely she has irritated it b/c of touching so much. I understand it is "typical" to have a phase like this, but it is definitely not appropriate. This happened occasionally for about a year, but it only turned into an all the time thing a few weeks ago. I like the idea of saying, "not at daycare," but its so frustrating to have to redirect and wash her hands multiple times every day. We may have to come up with a behavior plan if this continues like one of you mentioned. Its definitely not ok for the other kids to be exposed to this behavior.
Since redirecting and hand washing isn't working, I'd do as MV says and make it really hard for her to even "go there".

She needs to be dressed in well-fitted jeans or some other fairly solid pants and a shirt. Not sure if she can do snaps or buttons yet, but if not you will have to help her when she comes out of the bathroom. That might actually help alert you, anyway.

Unless there is any kind of abuse going on, she probably will outgrow it. I WAS abused and never had the issue. My son, who was not, rubbed himself against everything for a while as a preschooler. We just redirected and he eventually outgrew it.

I really think that if opportunity is reduced via different clothes, she'll have find something else to do.
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Meyou 11:05 AM 07-23-2014
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
I also do not think it is something we need to immediately call CPS over....

It's a self soothing mechanism for some children. The pleasure is no different than sucking their thumb or stroking the satin edge of a blanket or any other sensory seeking behavior.

I had a 4 yr old in care that would frequently masturbate during nap time.

She was not a victim of sexual abuse and although she came from a pretty dysfunctional family, it was nothing more than an attempt to self-soothe.

With a bit of re-direction, assistance and support from both myself and her parent, the child eventually learned it was not okay to do at daycare.

Apparently she continued to have this behavior though well after leaving my care but was perfectly content to limit it to her own bedroom at home.

Child is now 7 and mom tells me she has since stopped although she (mom) is not aware of when she stopped since she only did it in her own room.
I have one who is similar. He started at 4, more than a year after he potty learned and it escalated the summer he was 5. I read a thread on here about making it a "not for daycare" activity and went from there after redirection, talks about appropriate places and talks with mom and dad got me nowhere. He's 7 now and hasn't whipped in out in over 2 years here but he still enjoys his alone time at home frequently. He's borderline delayed, has huge anxiety and it was soothing related for him IMO.
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Heidi 11:14 AM 07-23-2014
Originally Posted by nannyde:
Saying no and putting in a block isn't any more like shaming than it is like celebrating. You can say the word shame and I can say the word frog.

Backwards jammies makes skin to skin contact impossible. Overalls can easily be gone thru on both waist sides and the front buckles.

Block her and get three kinds of DEAD SERIOUS that she is to STOP IT... don't do it again ONE TIME in my house. If she can't mind the adult she needs to be terminated. She can rock a daycare providers world. She's a danger to the business. She's a danger to your freedom.

Any four year old who has been told to stop it and continues to do it constantly and brazenly open is too risky to have under your roof. Tell the other parents about a kid who is naked masturbating in front of their kid and see how many say... well just tell her it's a private affair and to go to a private area.... and don't worry... It's normal.

Ummm that would be none.
I do agree with the liability part. I'm guessing, though, that in fear of being too firm and possibly "damaging" this child's psyche, OP may be being to gentle, and not giving a clear message. Mom's message of "only in private" is ok; but at daycare, it needs to be stepped up to NO!
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Play Care 11:16 AM 07-23-2014
Originally Posted by Hunni Bee:
^^ This. Its not so much that she's doing it, many kids (I notice it a BUNCH with girls) do it, to soothe themselves to sleep or just because its theirs and they like it.

But, honestly, with all the kids I've seen do it who had nothing going on, it was PRIVATE. (as private as a little kid can get) Subtly under the covers at nap, sometimes in the bathroom, etc. NOT removing clothing, coming out into the main room naked and openly touching in front of other people.

That's for me where it goes into not okay.


I have kids that I've known to be "humpers" Basically taking advantage of any opportunity to rub or hump - leaning against furniture, resting at nap, etc. But it wasn't obvious to anyone else. I've never had a child exposing themselves to others and rubbing themselves raw - The behavior the OP is describing seems a bit out of the norm to me. That doesn't mean I'd be calling CPS, but I'd sure as heck be documenting, talking to licensing, etc. I LOVE Meyou's suggestion - this child does need to "STOP! We don't do that at day care!"
The situation needs to be monitored very closely because a child who is openly showing genitals, rubbing them in front of others, etc. is a HUGE liability.
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KiddieCahoots 11:16 AM 07-23-2014
The op is saying that this child is masturbating constantly to the point of needing medical attention because she's rubbed herself raw. This child is not masturbating in a discreet method, to coincide with being told to go to her room and do it there in privacy. She's spreading her naked legs apart and going to town in front of people, suggesting this is normal behavior for her to do in front of others.
Here are two of the more severe stories of the children that exhibited this exact behavior....One of the girls was put in front of the tv with *****graphic movies by her mother and lesbian lover, to teach her how it was done. The other 4yr old was brought over to daddy's friends houses where they were allowed to have their way.
Both masturbated more than usual, both masturbated themselves raw, both continued the "phase", longer than normal, and both were more casual about masturbating in public than the normal masturbating child.

We are mandated reporters.
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debbiedoeszip 11:21 AM 07-23-2014
Originally Posted by nannyde:
Saying no and putting in a block isn't any more like shaming than it is like celebrating. You can say the word shame and I can say the word frog.

Backwards jammies makes skin to skin contact impossible. Overalls can easily be gone thru on both waist sides and the front buckles.

Block her and get three kinds of DEAD SERIOUS that she is to STOP IT... don't do it again ONE TIME in my house. If she can't mind the adult she needs to be terminated. She can rock a daycare providers world. She's a danger to the business. She's a danger to your freedom.

Any four year old who has been told to stop it and continues to do it constantly and brazenly open is too risky to have under your roof. Tell the other parents about a kid who is naked masturbating in front of their kid and see how many say... well just tell her it's a private affair and to go to a private area.... and don't worry... It's normal.

Ummm that would be none.
I'm not going to make a child that age wear pjs all day when other kids her age are wearing regular clothes. Especially making them wear the pjs backwards. I'm not going to make the child feel self-conscious all day and ashamed by the behaviour that led to his/her needing to wear different clothes than the others. Period. Masturbation is not a harmful behaviour in and of itself. If you are really that concerned about a child's behaviour messing with your business, then by all means term.

And I'm not going to get all DEAD SERIOUS about something that isn't harmful or dangerous. I'm going to be extremely persistent in stopping the behaviour and I'll work super hard at keeping the child's hands otherwise occupied, but I'm not going to treat the child like they've committed a crime against humanity.

And why would I be discussing a daycare child with a non-parent? If another parent brings it up, I'll downplay it, say we're working on it, and then change the subject. Seriously, what's going on with "not their child" is none of their business.
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Blackcat31 11:22 AM 07-23-2014
Originally Posted by KiddieCahoots:
The op is saying that this child is masturbating constantly to the point of needing medical attention because she's rubbed herself raw. This child is not masturbating in a discreet method, to coincide with being told to go to her room and do it there in privacy. She's spreading her naked legs apart and going to town in front of people, suggesting this is normal behavior for her to do in front of others.
Here are two of the more severe stories of the children that exhibited this exact behavior....One of the girls was put in front of the tv with *****graphic movies by her mother and lesbian lover, to teach her how it was done. The other 4yr old was brought over to daddy's friends houses where they were allowed to have their way.
Both masturbated more than usual, both masturbated themselves raw, both continued the "phase", longer than normal, and both were more casual about masturbating in public than the normal masturbating child.

We are mandated reporters.
I don't think that suggests the child feels it's normal to do in front of others.

I think that means the child hasn't been burdened yet with what society deems acceptable.

What if this child were chewing her fingernails raw? How would this same situation play out?

I doubt it will be nearly as controversial...kwim?

Adults place the "sex" and societal beliefs about taboo things onto children. This child has simply not grasped the concept of what is an isn't acceptable in the presence of others.

Just like my 4 yr olds who poop with the door open so they can continue conversing with their buddy. They dont have that need for privacy just yet.

Doesn't mean it's wrong or reportable.
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Heidi 11:25 AM 07-23-2014
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
I don't think that suggests the child feels it's normal to do in front of others.

I think that means the child hasn't been burdened yet with what society deems acceptable.

What if this child were chewing her fingernails raw? How would this same situation play out?

I doubt it will be nearly as controversial...kwim?

Adults place the "sex" and societal beliefs about taboo things onto children. This child has simply not grasped the concept of what is an isn't acceptable in the presence of others.

Just like my 4 yr olds who poop with the door open so they can continue conversing with their buddy. They dont have that need for privacy just yet.

Doesn't mean it's wrong or reportable.

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coolconfidentme 11:26 AM 07-23-2014
I've had little boys touch themselves when they noticed they have a penis. I say, "No hands in the pants!" These kids went masturbating by any means.
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tehck_1013 11:34 AM 07-23-2014
Originally Posted by debbiedoeszip:
When I read your post, I got the idea that you were suggesting that anyone who wasn't shocked and appalled by the behaviour was also allowing it to happen. No one so far has suggested that they would allow it, even if they weren't grossed out by it. I'm very uncomfortable with the behaviour, but not grossed out (because I understand that it's normal, and that not all kids that age have the right level of social skill and/or impulse control to stop right away).
Oh, ok I understand where you're coming from. I wasn't saying what I said because anyone else had said that they allow it, I was just saying it because I just really wouldn't. I offered up that line, not because anyone else had said anything about it.

I don't feel like I am in the wrong for thinking it's gross. I wouldn't let her know that I think it is gross. I would just ask her to stop and say that she cannot do that here. I am just speaking about how I would handle it because I haven't had to.
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Naptime yet? 11:37 AM 07-23-2014
Not to change the subject or downplay thus discussion, but wait until someone does a search for "pinworms" and this thread comes up.
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KidGrind 11:38 AM 07-23-2014
I am grossed out to the max.
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TwinKristi 11:42 AM 07-23-2014
I've never had a kid do that, not my own, not daycare. Sure they grab themselves in the bathtub or during a diaper change as an infant but once you're talking about a 4-5yr old doing it in the open spread eagle on the couch... No. Not normal. And like someone pointed out, to rub yourself raw is quite a task and something that should be addressed. She could be causing herself damage down there and perhaps inviting an infection. Plus dirty little hands and private parts just aren't a good mix.
If she continues to do this to the point of injury I would give parents the ultimatum of long pants, leggings under shorts, leggings under her dresses, but no dresses and shorts for now. That doesn't prevent her from doing this in the potty but I agree you may need to supervise her in there and make sure she's dressed before coming out.

I wouldn't be happy if I found out my child was being exposed to that at daycare. Her parents need to understand what they allow at home (which is pretty off IMO) is NOT going to dictate what you allow at daycare.

Also- I had a friend who's 4yr old boy was doing this, and was uncircumcised and gave himself an infection. They allowed him to do it at home and didn't want to shame him... But he didn't do if at daycare/preschool most likely because he wasn't allowed to! These are typical cookoo new age parents... Bratty kids but SO smart and dressed in their designer Mini Boden, Tea, Gynboree, Gap and Janie & Jack clothes!
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starz0123 12:29 PM 07-23-2014
To say child sexualised behaviour is not normal development is just wrong. What is right is understanding when those behaviours are out of the norm & are considered harmful to the child. A phone call to child protection will clarify that for you.

There are lots of good resources out there from childhood theorists and child psychologists on the subject & how to deal with it. Some previous posters had some good links, Louise Porter has a good one & reading theorists such as Erik Erikson will give you an understanding of human development.
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EntropyControlSpecialist 12:44 PM 07-23-2014
Originally Posted by nannyde:
Saying no and putting in a block isn't any more like shaming than it is like celebrating. You can say the word shame and I can say the word frog.

Backwards jammies makes skin to skin contact impossible. Overalls can easily be gone thru on both waist sides and the front buckles.

Block her and get three kinds of DEAD SERIOUS that she is to STOP IT... don't do it again ONE TIME in my house. If she can't mind the adult she needs to be terminated. She can rock a daycare providers world. She's a danger to the business. She's a danger to your freedom.

Any four year old who has been told to stop it and continues to do it constantly and brazenly open is too risky to have under your roof. Tell the other parents about a kid who is naked masturbating in front of their kid and see how many say... well just tell her it's a private affair and to go to a private area.... and don't worry... It's normal.

Ummm that would be none.
I 1000000% agree with Nannyde.
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nannyde 01:11 PM 07-23-2014
Originally Posted by debbiedoeszip:
I'm not going to make a child that age wear pjs all day when other kids her age are wearing regular clothes. Especially making them wear the pjs backwards. I'm not going to make the child feel self-conscious all day and ashamed by the behaviour that led to his/her needing to wear different clothes than the others. Period. Masturbation is not a harmful behaviour in and of itself. If you are really that concerned about a child's behaviour messing with your business, then by all means term.

And I'm not going to get all DEAD SERIOUS about something that isn't harmful or dangerous. I'm going to be extremely persistent in stopping the behaviour and I'll work super hard at keeping the child's hands otherwise occupied, but I'm not going to treat the child like they've committed a crime against humanity.

And why would I be discussing a daycare child with a non-parent? If another parent brings it up, I'll downplay it, say we're working on it, and then change the subject. Seriously, what's going on with "not their child" is none of their business.
Nah.... get some Frozen themed footed jammies and put them on her. She isn't thirteen. She's four. She needs TIME every day where she is blocked and fugures out how to expend her energy with something else.

You will be discussing this with the other parents. The kids that witness the kid coming out of the bathroom naked, getting on the couch, spreading the legs and masturbating will have their parents told about it before they even pull out of your driveway.

I have a HUGE issue with this kid being told repeatedly to stop it and her escalating it to naked on the couch. Do you GET that?

We have COMPLETELY lost our way when it comes to discipline. We have abandoned our common sense.

A four year old child should not be spread legged naked on a couch masturbating herself. A four year old child who has been told over and over and over and over and over to STOP it.... NO! Is so driven to soothe and pleasure herself means there is something very seriously wrong.

Four year old children should not derive pleasure from masturbating. Four year old children who do... who insist... who are willing to be in trouble... who know the adult doesn't like it... have something going on in their life that is not normal. They do this high level public stimulation now and what do you think is next?

I will tell you. You will have a kid who does it constantly because it takes constantly to get the feeling they are chasing.

She needs to GO PLAY TOYS and stop stealing every opportunity to pleasure herself. She needs to pay attention to what those around her are doing instead of isolating herself into a game that only one plays. She should not need to experience this gratification at four. She has her whole life ahead of her.

It breaks my heart that we are stealing away every single aspect of these kids childhood because some educators take research and apply it to their philosophy and sell it in books. We don't need someone to tell us kids explore themselves. What kids don't do and shouldn't do is fixate on masturbating publicly when they are sitting in playrooms with dolls, blocks, cars, kitchen, shopping carts. That child should be pleasuring herself with those.
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dalman 01:13 PM 07-23-2014
Originally Posted by nannyde:

She can rock a daycare providers world. She's a danger to the business. She's a danger to your freedom.

Any four year old who has been told to stop it and continues to do it constantly and brazenly open is too risky to have under your roof. Tell the other parents about a kid who is naked masturbating in front of their kid and see how many say... well just tell her it's a private affair and to go to a private area.... and don't worry... It's normal.

Ummm that would be none.


I agree with Nanny De. You are providing GROUP daycare. She is not the only child in your home. I would be livid if I found out that this was going on in front of my child and touted as being normal. I do not condone this behavior and I would not want it modeled in front of my child.

This mother's response is not one that works for me. What she wants to allow in her home is her business, so take your daughter and her business elsewhere. I would not put my daycare license, reputation, income, impressionable children on the line for this wacko mom. You are playing with fire and hopefully you don't get burned. I would call me licensor immediately and go from there. I would also hand the mom her term notice immediately.
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debbiedoeszip 01:22 PM 07-23-2014
We agree that it is not to be allowed, but we will have to agree to disagree on the rest.
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tehck_1013 01:23 PM 07-23-2014
Originally Posted by Play Care:


I have kids that I've known to be "humpers" Basically taking advantage of any opportunity to rub or hump - leaning against furniture, resting at nap, etc. But it wasn't obvious to anyone else.


humpers.


Billy...... We don't touch the couch like that......

hahahaha.
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Heidi 02:08 PM 07-23-2014
Originally Posted by debbiedoeszip:
We agree that it is not to be allowed, but we will have to agree to disagree on the rest.

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Unregistered 02:32 PM 07-23-2014
Originally Posted by Heidi:
I do agree with the liability part. I'm guessing, though, that in fear of being too firm and possibly "damaging" this child's psyche, OP may be being to gentle, and not giving a clear message. Mom's message of "only in private" is ok; but at daycare, it needs to be stepped up to NO!
I am the OP. I was too gentle about it at first because I was worried about shaming the child, but I have since stepped it up to a definite no and she still persists. Its been a definite no for at least a week now.(I said no, don't do that all along, but I just wasn't as adamant about it until last week.)
Yesterday when my son saw her doing it and asked me about it was kind of the end of the line for me. I told mom she has to have tight fitting shorts under all of her dresses and it needs to be addressed. Mom feels it is "normal." I love the suggestion of saying "No that's not allowed at daycare," because it doesn't undermine mom but says it is not allowed here under any circumstances. Nannyde has a very good point about other parents being alarmed because I was very upset that it happened in front of my son and I'm the provider. I can only imagine how I would have felt if my son witnessed that while in someone else's care. This child does have sensory issues. That could be playing into this, but either way I truly feel if the adult in charge tells you to stop a behavior, at 4 y.o. you should have enough self control to stop.
I know that its considered normal for a child to explore this region of their body, but this is not a casual let me see what's there. I mean she completely spreads herself. Her parents recently divorced so maybe she is acting out because of that? Idk. Today she came in more appropriate clothing and she only tried it once and it was over the clothes. All I had to do was look at her and she stopped immediately. I'm hoping talking to mom worked. I hate to report it if nothing is going on, but for her sake I don't want to be wrong either. I don't believe she's being abused or I would call in a second, but I will definitely be documenting very carefully for my records and if it continues I will call. Better safe than sorry.
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KiddieCahoots 02:33 PM 07-23-2014
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
I don't think that suggests the child feels it's normal to do in front of others.

I think that means the child hasn't been burdened yet with what society deems acceptable.

What if this child were chewing her fingernails raw? How would this same situation play out?

I doubt it will be nearly as controversial...kwim?

Adults place the "sex" and societal beliefs about taboo things onto children. This child has simply not grasped the concept of what is an isn't acceptable in the presence of others.

Just like my 4 yr olds who poop with the door open so they can continue conversing with their buddy. They dont have that need for privacy just yet.

Doesn't mean it's wrong or reportable.
Idk Bc. In all my years, the children that I witnessed masturbate themselves raw were the ones that had been abused.
Considering the devastating effects it can cause a child, I'd rather leave the diagnoses up to the professionals, and make the call, just like I swore I would as a mandated reporter when I signed my license.
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Blackcat31 02:49 PM 07-23-2014
Originally Posted by KiddieCahoots:
Idk Bc. In all my years, the children that I witnessed masturbate themselves raw were the ones that had been abused.
Considering the devastating effects it can cause a child, I'd rather leave the diagnoses up to the professionals, and make the call, just like I swore I would as a mandated reporter when I signed my license.
Oh don't get me wrong...I'm not saying OP shouldn't be concerned. I am just saying it doesn't automatically mean she is a victim of sexual abuse simply because she masturbates.

I have had one in care that did that and she was NOT a victim of anything like that. She was simply self-soothing.

OP knows her DCK's and knows if it warrants a call to CPS or not.

We don't know the bigger picture so "we" can't make that call....kwim?

I also know that being a mandated reporter means when we suspect abuse so therefore, OP has to be the one that suspects or doesn't suspect.

I did a TON of research about masturbation in early childhood and it isn't nearly as concerning as everyone is making it out to be. It CAN be, but that really is in only a small percentage of cases.

Hopefully, OP will research and gather info, document and come to her own conclusion. Only she knows the right move to make next.
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TwinKristi 02:54 PM 07-23-2014
Does mom have a new BF or dad have a family member he's living with or perhaps a roommate?
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SilverSabre25 03:00 PM 07-23-2014
Originally Posted by Unregistered:
This child does have sensory issues.
BINGO. I was suspecting sensory issues. That's what sparked my earlier suggestion of something like a chewy ring or silky fabric to redirect to her. She's stimming. Has she been evaluated for these sensory issues?
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MotherNature 03:11 PM 07-23-2014
Originally Posted by debbiedoeszip:
I'm not going to make a child that age wear pjs all day when other kids her age are wearing regular clothes. Especially making them wear the pjs backwards. I'm not going to make the child feel self-conscious all day and ashamed by the behaviour that led to his/her needing to wear different clothes than the others. Period. Masturbation is not a harmful behaviour in and of itself. If you are really that concerned about a child's behaviour messing with your business, then by all means term.

And I'm not going to get all DEAD SERIOUS about something that isn't harmful or dangerous. I'm going to be extremely persistent in stopping the behaviour and I'll work super hard at keeping the child's hands otherwise occupied, but I'm not going to treat the child like they've committed a crime against humanity.

And why would I be discussing a daycare child with a non-parent? If another parent brings it up, I'll downplay it, say we're working on it, and then change the subject. Seriously, what's going on with "not their child" is none of their business.
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
I don't think that suggests the child feels it's normal to do in front of others.

I think that means the child hasn't been burdened yet with what society deems acceptable.

What if this child were chewing her fingernails raw? How would this same situation play out?

I doubt it will be nearly as controversial...kwim?

Adults place the "sex" and societal beliefs about taboo things onto children. This child has simply not grasped the concept of what is an isn't acceptable in the presence of others.

Just like my 4 yr olds who poop with the door open so they can continue conversing with their buddy. They dont have that need for privacy just yet.

Doesn't mean it's wrong or reportable.

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MotherNature 03:17 PM 07-23-2014
Originally Posted by SilverSabre25:
BINGO. I was suspecting sensory issues. That's what sparked my earlier suggestion of something like a chewy ring or silky fabric to redirect to her. She's stimming. Has she been evaluated for these sensory issues?
My 3.5 yr old loves to be naked and constantly touches himself. He has a tactile hyposensitivity, so he craves & needs a lot of touch. We are teaching him not in front of others,but he has his days. We're working on it..
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Unregistered 03:32 PM 07-23-2014
Originally Posted by SilverSabre25:
BINGO. I was suspecting sensory issues. That's what sparked my earlier suggestion of something like a chewy ring or silky fabric to redirect to her. She's stimming. Has she been evaluated for these sensory issues?
She has been. She qualifies for services, but parents declined them. They do not want anything that makes her appear to be "abnormal." They are very sensitive about that.
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MotherNature 03:36 PM 07-23-2014
Originally Posted by Unregistered:
She has been. She qualifies for services, but parents declined them. They do not want anything that makes her appear to be "abnormal." They are very sensitive about that.
ARGGGGHHHH! They are doing her a major disservice. I'd term then. They're not willing to get her the OT she NEEDS, but are totally willing for you to lose clients due to the sensory issues that are not getting treated. TERM! parents are clueless and I feel bad for the dcg. I know what I go through with my son. It's hell some days. For them not to seek help b/c they're ashamed of some diagnosis is incredibly horrible. Shame on them.
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craftymissbeth 04:32 PM 07-23-2014
I'll just say straight away that masturbation IS totally normal...

BUT...


masturbation to the point of needing to be seen by a doctor because they've hurt themselves by doing it so much is not normal.

not being able to stop even after being told no repeatedly is not normal.

having no concept of this being something we do privately is not normal. And it's odd that even after mom supposedly teaches her that it's private and not to be done in front of others she still doesn't understand.

If you want to compare this to biting or hitting... I've read so often here that children this age KNOW BETTER... so why doesn't this child KNOW BETTER?!

If you want to say that this situation doesn't necessarily mean she's abused... that's not a daycare providers responsibility to sort out. That's what CPS is for and that's why OP should call them. If a 4 year olds way of self soothing is to repeatedly masturbate, naked, in front of others then the adults in their life have the responsibility of getting them help. CPS is an awesome source of help in situations when it's unclear.

Idk, I guess I'd hate myself if I never called and she really did need that help

(Please don't flame me. I can't bring myself to type the reason why, but I wish the adults in my life had done something to get help when questionable situations like this arose.)
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TaylorTots 05:19 PM 07-23-2014
Thank you, nannyde. I completely agree with you. I have nothing much to add as you said it VERY well in many ways. Current sociological and psychological trends DO support that this is NOT normal behavior. I have recent degrees in both disciplines. I have seen it plenty of times and I have talked to parents, put children on suspension, termed, arranged screenings for possible sensory issues, arranged said treatment as well, and in some cases even called CPS and/or transferred a child to a special needs class from my prek room.

It. is. not. ok.
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Indoorvoice 05:41 PM 07-23-2014
The only thing I will say about the backwards jammie thing is to be careful with that and know what the laws say in your area. It can be considered restraint. Someone was fired at a group home I worked at for doing that to a child who was smearing poop at night. Yes, you think you are protecting the child, but there is a very fine line.
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sugar buzz 05:58 PM 07-23-2014
Idk, I guess I'd hate myself if I never called and she really did need that help

(Please don't flame me. I can't bring myself to type the reason why, but I wish the adults in my life had done something to get help when questionable situations like this arose.)[/quote]

Your children are so lucky to have you as their advocate.
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Lucy 06:12 PM 07-23-2014
Putting her in some kind of special clothing to block her is analogous to putting a dunce cap on her.

Oh, and I'm not talking about tight-fitting jeans, or anything that kids wear every day. That sounds like a good solution to me.
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nannyde 06:13 PM 07-23-2014
This is a discussion we have a few times of year and it always brings the furry out in me. Not because whether or not masturbation is normal in kids per se but just the simple minded dismissal of neatly every flippin things kids do now has to be either normal or a product of some special need.

I HATE THAT SO MUCH

I lurk on parenting boards and I swear it's gotten to the point where a poster can say something insane like their 15 month old is up till four in the morning and head butts, bites, kicks, claws his mother when she is trying to lay on a mattress with him amd the only thing that will give her a moment of peace is if she breastfeeds him during the attack and even then he HAS to pinch and twist her other nipple while he feeds or he unlatches and starts attacking het again.... and you know the response?

That's normal. My son did that too when he was that age. Ugh!

I'm sick of normal. I'm over it. It's a mindless answer to everything now.


Seriously does anyone think naked public masturbation of a four year old is normal? It's RIDICULOUS.
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nannyde 06:23 PM 07-23-2014
Originally Posted by Lucy:
Putting her in some kind of special clothing to block her is analogous to putting a dunce cap on her.
No it isn't but that could be solved. Throw a simple t-shirt and pants over it. You would have to help the potty breaks but you would have to anyway.

She needs a BLOCK. SOMETHING that stands in between her bare hands and her privates that is beyond words and works every single time she has the escalation and desire to pleasure herself.

SOMETHING she can not physically get around that does not restrict ANY other physical movement.

It's a brilliant and low cost solution to stop the skin to skin. It will not stop humping but it will stop her skin to skin.

One phone call to the child protective unit telling them this child has this behavior and it can not and will not be tolerated, this is the block, take it or leave it. If they say her lil fee fees will be hurt then she leaves that day.

No more chances to expose herself to this providers little son. No more energy in trying to get her to do right by words. Until words work then she either has zero skin to skin access or she stays home where she can masturbate herself raw privately.
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nannyde 06:26 PM 07-23-2014
Originally Posted by Lucy:
Putting her in some kind of special clothing to block her is analogous to putting a dunce cap on her.

Oh, and I'm not talking about tight-fitting jeans, or anything that kids wear every day. That sounds like a good solution to me.
Nope. She will work around those in a few days. It will slow it down because she needs time to learn to get past them quickly before the provider stops her... but she will get past them.
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nannyde 06:31 PM 07-23-2014
Originally Posted by TaylorTots:
Thank you, nannyde. I completely agree with you. I have nothing much to add as you said it VERY well in many ways. Current sociological and psychological trends DO support that this is NOT normal behavior. I have recent degrees in both disciplines. I have seen it plenty of times and have talked to parents, put children on suspension, termed, arranged screenings for possible sensory issues, arranged said treatment as well, and in some cases even called CPS and/or transferred a child to a special needs class from my prek room.

It. is. not. ok.
The thing is... we have inate common sense. Common sense says this pleasure is for adults. This child has her whole life to work herself up to this level of pleasuring herself. She needs a BREAK. What happened in the beginning that was wrong was saying it is normal and do it in private. Tell her NO we don't do that. You can say NO knowing eventually she will explore in private. She doesn't need the act blessed and time and place handed to her. Just a stop it.
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Lucy 06:42 PM 07-23-2014
...... I can't .......
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Meeko 06:57 PM 07-23-2014
I'm with Nannyde 100% on this one.

This is NOT normal behavior and needs to be stopped. The child isn't even trying to stop, so it's up to an adult to force the matter.

And besides the actual masturbation......she needs to understand that an adult said NO.....to whatever she may be doing. That means NO. I would never let a 4 year old tell me no or ignore me. What does that teach the child or any of the other DCK's?

The other kids ARE going to say something to their parents. The OP is going to get a parent who questions their kid and gets the idea that this is a group activity at daycare...encouraged by the provider and she is looking at her life changing forever.

If the OP waits any longer, she is going to find herself in DEEP ka-ka. I would bet anything, than if the authorities question the parents, they are going to get nervous and point at the provider. SHE encourages it. SHE tells the kid it's normal and to go ahead and do it in front of the other kids.

So best it comes FROM the provider and not an angry parent who's child has witnessed this.
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nannyde 06:58 PM 07-23-2014
Originally Posted by Lucy:
...... I can't .......
Sure you can. Come up with a solution that guarantees this providers three year old son isn't going to see this four year old naked with her legs apart and her hands on her privates.

You are a twenty year vet. You CAN. Guaranteed solution
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Lucy 07:03 PM 07-23-2014
Originally Posted by nannyde:
Sure you can. Come up with a solution that guarantees this providers three year old son isn't going to see this four year old naked with her legs apart and her hands on her privates.

You are a twenty year vet. You CAN. Guaranteed solution
Totally wasn't talking about not being able to solve the problem.
I have all school-agers.
That was me putting my backspace key to work...................

I was trying not to engage. I'll just say two words and I'm done. Heat Stroke.
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nannyde 07:14 PM 07-23-2014
Originally Posted by Lucy:
Totally wasn't talking about not being able to solve the problem.
I have all school-agers.
That was me putting my backspace key to work...................

I was trying not to engage. I'll just say two words and I'm done. Heat Stroke.
Ok I will try again. You come behind me once again .... as you do everywhere I have original content and dismiss it and accuse me of abuse. You don't say the word abuse but any fool can see the implication.

You dismiss me but what I don't see is a twenty year veterans original concepts that are SOLUTIONS. Solutions that are bravely set forth for one and all to nod or nay.

You got your chance to put forth instead of put down.

Show me new. Show me creativity. Show me years of experience problem solving that works.

It's easy to tag along and pile on.
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Lucy 07:18 PM 07-23-2014
No thank you.
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coolconfidentme 02:42 AM 07-24-2014
At the very least you should email licensing to document your concern & ask for direction. It could be noting, but I always error on the side of the child. Sometimes we are their only voice.
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Unregistered 04:40 AM 07-24-2014
Do you know in this specific situation because I sent her to the dr. & he is aware of it, doesn't he have to document it? If he felt it was abuse, it would be reported right? That's a big part of what's throwing me off. I sent her to a dr via her mother saying she had to be seen before she could return to care. If the dr. didn't feel it was abuse, but just a child over indulging herself, and having spent a little time with the family I've never seen anything to indicate abuse, other than the obvious act of her being way more into this than a 4 y.o. should, how can I make that call? I think I'm just a little skeptical to call CPS over something like this unless I'm pretty sure because I called and reported one other time when I was almost positive a child was being abused and it ended badly for me with nothing being done for the child. Two brothers came in both having burn marks on their arms and one of them on a leg. Looked like cigarette burns. I called. They investigated, but mom said the kids ran into the cigarettes and it was dropped. Of course they figured out who called and you can imagine how that ended for me. And now I wonder who is advocating for those boys? If I was convinced she was being abused, I would call immediately regardless of what that meant for me. But I don't see any proof of that. The only suspicious thing I see is that she has carried this much farther than the normal child. I do agree with Nannyde that this has to stop now. It's not to be seen by my son or any other child again. Period. End of story. If she can't stop herself then I will have to term because its not healthy for the other children. But as far as reporting it, I sent her to the dr and he didn't think it was abuse. Unless mom is lying. In which case I'm sure a report has already been fiied.
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coolconfidentme 04:56 AM 07-24-2014
Originally Posted by Unregistered:
Do you know in this specific situation because I sent her to the dr. & he is aware of it, doesn't he have to document it? If he felt it was abuse, it would be reported right? That's a big part of what's throwing me off. I sent her to a dr via her mother saying she had to be seen before she could return to care. If the dr. didn't feel it was abuse, but just a child over indulging herself, and having spent a little time with the family I've never seen anything to indicate abuse, other than the obvious act of her being way more into this than a 4 y.o. should, how can I make that call? I think I'm just a little skeptical to call CPS over something like this unless I'm pretty sure because I called and reported one other time when I was almost positive a child was being abused and it ended badly for me with nothing being done for the child. Two brothers came in both having burn marks on their arms and one of them on a leg. Looked like cigarette burns. I called. They investigated, but mom said the kids ran into the cigarettes and it was dropped. Of course they figured out who called and you can imagine how that ended for me. And now I wonder who is advocating for those boys? If I was convinced she was being abused, I would call immediately regardless of what that meant for me. But I don't see any proof of that. The only suspicious thing I see is that she has carried this much farther than the normal child. I do agree with Nannyde that this has to stop now. It's not to be seen by my son or any other child again. Period. End of story. If she can't stop herself then I will have to term because its not healthy for the other children. But as far as reporting it, I sent her to the dr and he didn't think it was abuse. Unless mom is lying. In which case I'm sure a report has already been fiied.
I'm confused. You sent her to the doctor or the parent took her? Do you have the note from the doctor making that statement? I would still email licensing to document it & ask for guidance. Let them make the decision.
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MrsSteinel'sHouse 05:02 AM 07-24-2014
Originally Posted by Unregistered:
I am the OP. I was too gentle about it at first because I was worried about shaming the child, but I have since stepped it up to a definite no and she still persists. Its been a definite no for at least a week now.(I said no, don't do that all along, but I just wasn't as adamant about it until last week.)
Yesterday when my son saw her doing it and asked me about it was kind of the end of the line for me. I told mom she has to have tight fitting shorts under all of her dresses and it needs to be addressed. Mom feels it is "normal." I love the suggestion of saying "No that's not allowed at daycare," because it doesn't undermine mom but says it is not allowed here under any circumstances. Nannyde has a very good point about other parents being alarmed because I was very upset that it happened in front of my son and I'm the provider. I can only imagine how I would have felt if my son witnessed that while in someone else's care. This child does have sensory issues. That could be playing into this, but either way I truly feel if the adult in charge tells you to stop a behavior, at 4 y.o. you should have enough self control to stop.
I know that its considered normal for a child to explore this region of their body, but this is not a casual let me see what's there. I mean she completely spreads herself. Her parents recently divorced so maybe she is acting out because of that? Idk. Today she came in more appropriate clothing and she only tried it once and it was over the clothes. All I had to do was look at her and she stopped immediately. I'm hoping talking to mom worked. I hate to report it if nothing is going on, but for her sake I don't want to be wrong either. I don't believe she's being abused or I would call in a second, but I will definitely be documenting very carefully for my records and if it continues I will call. Better safe than sorry.
recently divorced.. does mom have a new boyfriend? is there a male in her life that wasn't there before? or does dad now have her alone? How long have you had the child? When did the behavior start? Document, document, document... but, if it continues or if something seems off, please call CPS. You are a mandated reporter and this is a red flag. Mom says she took her to the doctor- did they check for a yeast infection? Parasites? UTI?
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Unregistered 05:20 AM 07-24-2014
Originally Posted by MrsSteinel'sHouse:
recently divorced.. does mom have a new boyfriend? is there a male in her life that wasn't there before? or does dad now have her alone? How long have you had the child? When did the behavior start? Document, document, document... but, if it continues or if something seems off, please call CPS. You are a mandated reporter and this is a red flag. Mom says she took her to the doctor- did they check for a yeast infection? Parasites? UTI?
No new males around to my knowledge. Child does have visitation with dad. Dr. checked for uti & yeast i believe. Even sent a sample away for testing. Said there was no cause for concern, but that she had just irritated herself. I called mom & told her to pick dcg up & have her seen by dr. before returning her to care. Mom was the one who actually took her. I am documenting everything. I have had this child for 2 years. I noticed occasional exploring last summer when changing a diaper or when she was in bed. She would take her diaper off and try to smear poop. She had several therapists at the time and when I discussed my concern over it with them they all agreed it was because of the sensory issues. It's never been a regular occurrence or something she has done in front of others until about 3-4 weeks ago. All of a sudden it is happening wherever she is and multiple times a day.
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MrsSteinel'sHouse 05:23 AM 07-24-2014
That would be what would worry me- suddenly this extreme behavior. Does she still see therapists?
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NightOwl 05:50 AM 07-24-2014
Omg... I love it when nannyde gets fired up.
I'm completely with you on this one. The backwards jammies may be odd for a child this age, but YOU GOTTA DO WHAT YOU GOTTA DO. If the op isn't comfortable with this, then term. I'm WAY more uncomfortable with open masturbation than I am with backwards jammies.
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EntropyControlSpecialist 05:59 AM 07-24-2014
Originally Posted by Unregistered:
No new males around to my knowledge. Child does have visitation with dad. Dr. checked for uti & yeast i believe. Even sent a sample away for testing. Said there was no cause for concern, but that she had just irritated herself. I called mom & told her to pick dcg up & have her seen by dr. before returning her to care. Mom was the one who actually took her. I am documenting everything. I have had this child for 2 years. I noticed occasional exploring last summer when changing a diaper or when she was in bed. She would take her diaper off and try to smear poop. She had several therapists at the time and when I discussed my concern over it with them they all agreed it was because of the sensory issues. It's never been a regular occurrence or something she has done in front of others until about 3-4 weeks ago. All of a sudden it is happening wherever she is and multiple times a day.
I am sorry but SOMETHING is going on. Either something is going on at Dad's house, Mom has a new boyfriend that has had alone time access to the child, a male relative has been left alone with the child, OR something has changed in her home life (not sexually related) that has amped up her coping mechanism. Either way, I would be having a SERIOUS sit down conversation with Mom and directly addressing these things because this amount of sexual exploring ALL OF A SUDDEN is certainly not normal.
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Blackcat31 06:03 AM 07-24-2014
OP ~ I PM'ed you.
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mountainside13 06:15 AM 07-24-2014
This thread makes me want to bang the keyboard! It gets me too fired up! Nannyde 100%!
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nannyde 07:49 AM 07-24-2014
Originally Posted by Wednesday:
Omg... I love it when nannyde gets fired up.
I'm completely with you on this one. The backwards jammies may be odd for a child this age, but YOU GOTTA DO WHAT YOU GOTTA DO. If the op isn't comfortable with this, then term. I'm WAY more uncomfortable with open masturbation than I am with backwards jammies.
I think the tighter clothes is definitely worth a try but if the bottom has a zipper and snap she has access. Tight or not.

With backwards jammies it would be darn near impossible for her to get around them. In the time it took for her to try it would be caught.

If she isn't being abused and she gets a big break from access she may settle down and expend her energies elsewhere.. anywhere else would be a step in the right direction.

Get her a size five Frozen pair and install per my direction. Help her with undoing and redoing for potty and then give it time. I would talk to mom about NO MORE do it in private. That's not working. Just no access all the time. Jammied at home too would be great.

I know there is a product called unionsuits that MAY come that small. Same concept but turn backwards. May get those without feet.

Heck I would spring for identical Frozen or other cool character jams for the entire crew if that's what it took. The least of my worries is a dunce cap. That's easily solved. The fixation ... not so much
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KiddieCahoots 07:49 AM 07-24-2014
Originally Posted by Unregistered:
Do you know in this specific situation because I sent her to the dr. & he is aware of it, doesn't he have to document it? If he felt it was abuse, it would be reported right? That's a big part of what's throwing me off. I sent her to a dr via her mother saying she had to be seen before she could return to care. If the dr. didn't feel it was abuse, but just a child over indulging herself, and having spent a little time with the family I've never seen anything to indicate abuse, other than the obvious act of her being way more into this than a 4 y.o. should, how can I make that call? I think I'm just a little skeptical to call CPS over something like this unless I'm pretty sure because I called and reported one other time when I was almost positive a child was being abused and it ended badly for me with nothing being done for the child. Two brothers came in both having burn marks on their arms and one of them on a leg. Looked like cigarette burns. I called. They investigated, but mom said the kids ran into the cigarettes and it was dropped. Of course they figured out who called and you can imagine how that ended for me. And now I wonder who is advocating for those boys? If I was convinced she was being abused, I would call immediately regardless of what that meant for me. But I don't see any proof of that. The only suspicious thing I see is that she has carried this much farther than the normal child. I do agree with Nannyde that this has to stop now. It's not to be seen by my son or any other child again. Period. End of story. If she can't stop herself then I will have to term because its not healthy for the other children. But as far as reporting it, I sent her to the dr and he didn't think it was abuse. Unless mom is lying. In which case I'm sure a report has already been fiied.
Doctor's don't always get the whole picture from parents. Kids do get uti's, but if these parents are trying to act like their child is normal (like you had pp), then why would they admit to the doctor that she's doing this to herself?

It would be the collected reports together that would be helpful, or build a case for the child, the doctor's and yours.

If you don't seem to think a call to CPS is warranted, then like mentioned above, why not call your licensor? At least you can talk to them about this, they can help you determine if further action if required, and you can also clear your name at the same time from any implications.
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KiddieCahoots 08:03 AM 07-24-2014
Originally Posted by craftymissbeth:
I'll just say straight away that masturbation IS totally normal...

BUT...


masturbation to the point of needing to be seen by a doctor because they've hurt themselves by doing it so much is not normal.

not being able to stop even after being told no repeatedly is not normal.

having no concept of this being something we do privately is not normal. And it's odd that even after mom supposedly teaches her that it's private and not to be done in front of others she still doesn't understand.

If you want to compare this to biting or hitting... I've read so often here that children this age KNOW BETTER... so why doesn't this child KNOW BETTER?!

If you want to say that this situation doesn't necessarily mean she's abused... that's not a daycare providers responsibility to sort out. That's what CPS is for and that's why OP should call them. If a 4 year olds way of self soothing is to repeatedly masturbate, naked, in front of others then the adults in their life have the responsibility of getting them help. CPS is an awesome source of help in situations when it's unclear.

Idk, I guess I'd hate myself if I never called and she really did need that help

(Please don't flame me. I can't bring myself to type the reason why, but I wish the adults in my life had done something to get help when questionable situations like this arose.)
I'm so sorry.

So glad you're here with us.
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NightOwl 08:05 AM 07-24-2014
Originally Posted by nannyde:
I think the tighter clothes is definitely worth a try but if the bottom has a zipper and snap she has access. Tight or not.

With backwards jammies it would be darn near impossible for her to get around them. In the time it took for her to try it would be caught.

If she isn't being abused and she gets a big break from access she may settle down and expend her energies elsewhere.. anywhere else would be a step in the right direction.

Get her a size five Frozen pair and install per my direction. Help her with undoing and redoing for potty and then give it time. I would talk to mom about NO MORE do it in private. That's not working. Just no access all the time. Jammied at home too would be great.

I know there is a product called unionsuits that MAY come that small. Same concept but turn backwards. May get those without feet.

Heck I would spring for identical Frozen or other cool character jams for the entire crew if that's what it took. The least of my worries is a dunce cap. That's easily solved. The fixation ... not so much
Yes, Union suits. I think these are similar/same thing as thermal underwear. They can be found in one piece and they're made to go under the clothes. So, no embarrassment for dcg. But truly, honestly, if she's not ashamed to throw her legs open and go at it in front of everyone, she will not be ashamed of backwards jammies.
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nannyde 08:05 AM 07-24-2014
Unregistered if you want to talk before you do cps call... you can call me. I think a plan in place with some measurable and gradual access would help you see it clearly. With what I know now... I would try a block with cheerfulness and see if she gets calmed down or anxiety ridden... or tranfers the energy.

I can help you get a plan with mon too. She can call or we can three way call.

Just pm me if you want.

Or Cathearder might be willing to run this thru with you. She is truly GIFTED in developing plans and measuring outcomes. She is also the Whisperer of all things abuse related. A talk with her or a three way with us together?

If I had this going on I would be pounding her door down for help.
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Blackcat31 08:44 AM 07-24-2014
According to the American Academy of Pediatrics, if your child masturbates constantly or excessively, it may be a sign she's feeling anxious, emotionally overwhelmed, or isn't getting enough attention at home.

If anyone cares to read some research out there by the AAP and other reputable sources, excessive masturbation CAN fall within the normal range of development.

https://www.pediatriccareonline.org/...No+local+token

◦Masturbation ◾
Self-stimulating behaviors, such as head banging, head rolling, rocking, thumb sucking, and masturbation, as well as habits such as hair pulling and nail biting, are of concern to both parents and pediatricians. Research has suggested that commonalties exist among such behaviors, sometimes classified as stereotypies, and that they represent an interaction of the stage of neuromotor development with environmental influences (eg, restrictive car seats and cribs) and are a homeostatic mechanism that serves to regulate stimulation from the environment.

One of my DCM's is a childrens therapist, specializing in Play Therapy.
She said that a child who has not bonded securely with her parent or has had lots of change in their environment will resort to self stimulating behaviors.

She also said the excessive masturbation that causes her to be raw is due to the pleasure and comfort she once felt from the act before and it no longer being as satisfying as it may have once been for her.

For example this is similar to a drug addict. The high they felt the first time is rarely repeated so the user takes MORE in an attempt to achieve that same sense of satisfaction.

If this child truly has sensory issues and has been diagnosed as needing special services and the parents are not getting those services for her THAT is reason enough to call CPS as that IS a form of neglect.

The masturbation issue and it's increased excessiveness is evident of her need for help. The masturbation is a symptom in and of itself.

I'd call CPS on the fact that the parents aren't seeking the services their child needs.
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nannyde 09:14 AM 07-24-2014
Bingo.*

She also said the excessive masturbation that causes her to be raw is due to the pleasure and comfort she once felt from the act before and it no longer being as satisfying as it may have once been for her.*
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BabyMonkeys 09:17 AM 07-24-2014
I think that sending the child to the doctor was 100% the right thing to do, however, a doctor might spend 20 minutes with the child, whereas we spend 50+ hours a week with the child. I would not allow a doctor's opinion to outweigh my own on a situation that may require a call to CPS. I'm not saying that a call to CPS is required, only you can make that decision.
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Second Home 09:41 AM 07-24-2014
I can see this situation turning bad for the OP very quickly . As we all know most situations where a parent/child is put on probation or is termed does not end well .
I can see the dcp turning around and blaming this whole thing on the OP .
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CedarCreek 10:00 AM 07-24-2014
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:

If this child truly has sensory issues and has been diagnosed as needing special services and the parents are not getting those services for her THAT is reason enough to call CPS as that IS a form of neglect.

The masturbation issue and it's increased excessiveness is evident of her need for help. The masturbation is a symptom in and of itself.

I'd call CPS on the fact that the parents aren't seeking the services their child needs.
I completely agree with this! I felt like I was the only one who read that the parents declined help and I was like

Who does that?
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Heidi 10:31 AM 07-24-2014
If this child truly has sensory issues and has been diagnosed as needing special services and the parents are not getting those services for her THAT is reason enough to call CPS as that IS a form of neglect.

The whole thing took a different turn for me once I saw this. Now, it's not just an inappropriate public behavior. Now it's a coping mechanism that needs to be addressed. Not getting her help is so completely unfair to her. If she doesn't outgrow this particular behavior, she will most likely have a whole lot of other issues.

First, she'll get termed by OP because OP will have no choice. Then, she'll continue the behavior at other dc's until she goes to school, and probably be termed very quickly. Other dcp's don't have the history and connection with this child. They'll just do and send her on her way.

If she's still doing it when she gets to kindy, it's going to get real bad for her and all of the sudden, the whole world will be swooping down on mom.

She needs to be stopped. Like Nan says, it needs to STOP. Under other circumstances "go do that in private" might be appropriate, but it seems like it's beyond that. She also needs be taught some different coping strategies. We are not therapists, and I resent that now we are supposed to fill that role, too.

If it were me, OP, I'd do some sort of physical block (pants, onesies, Nan's PJ thing..whatever you're comfortable with), and I would tell mom "You need to get her help NOW, or I will have no choice but to term. I don't want to do that, but I will have no choice". If she walks, absolutely call CPS. In the meantime, document and talk to your licenser. This could blow up in your face so badly!
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Hunni Bee 10:53 AM 07-24-2014
^^^^

The last few posts.

Now I feel like we're getting on track. It screamed to me "anxious coping mechanism" from the first couple posts from the OP. Not so much sexual abuse, but definitely some huge void in this child's life where she was filling it with this behavior.

Its not ok. Not normal, not helpful, and NOT just because its masturbation, as I said in my other post. Because its public, compulsive and self-harming.

Jeez.
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Tags:2014, mandated reporter, masturbation, pinworms, sexual abuse, sexual behavior, sexual development
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