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Daycare Center and Family Home Forum>Pitbulls in Daycare
Unregistered 06:07 AM 11-04-2013
I know this is going to get some people riled up, but how do you feel about pitbulls being fostered for a rescue group in a daycare home?

I know the breed can be wonderful dogs, but I also know that those with difficult temperaments can be extremely dangerous. I have a friend with a child in a daycare where the fostered pitbulls are out and about with the kids, and she is really concerned.

As providers, what are your thoughts?
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littlemissmuffet 06:17 AM 11-04-2013
I personally would not have any kind of dog while running a daycare. It's too much of a risk FOR ME, but I fully support other childcare providers having dogs while doing childcare.
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caregiver 06:21 AM 11-04-2013
Personally, myself I wouldn't do it. My son and his wife have a pit bull mix breed dog and he is the most friendly dog I have ever known, but they have no children, but that is not always the case with pit bulls. I guess if I was that Mom I would be concerned too.
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Unregistered 06:22 AM 11-04-2013
I had a daycare family that had 2 pit bulls and they can be wonderful dogs. But personally I am afraid of them. If you raise them as puppies you have a much better chance of the dog growing up to be a good dog. But with fostering IMO is to risky and dangerous to be in a daycare environment. You would be bringing in an adult pit bull with unknown behavior and personality.

It can still be risky for any other type of dog also not just put bulls. I used to have a little dog in my daycare. He was wonderful with the children! But after 2 years I couldn't break him of the habit of chewing up everything
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jenboo 06:24 AM 11-04-2013
I would keep them separate from the kids. I have two miniature poodles and i don't let them near the kids during the day even though they are super friendly!
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Play Care 06:27 AM 11-04-2013
Originally Posted by littlemissmuffet:
I personally would not have any kind of dog while running a daycare. It's too much of a risk FOR ME, but I fully support other childcare providers having dogs while doing childcare.

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itlw8 06:29 AM 11-04-2013
my childcare ins will not cover injuries or liability from some breeds including pit bulls. I would NEVER have any kind of dog I was fostering near children in childcare. WAY to RISKY no matter what the breed.
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Jagen 06:47 AM 11-04-2013
We don't allow our dogs (regardless of breed) to interact with others' children. Our dogs love LOVE children, but - one wiggly butt wag and down goes a toddler. Or a huge possibly of a foot to the face. Always seems like a huge liability and if nothing else, it eases my mind that I am not having to worry about the dogs and the kids all at once.
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Scout 06:51 AM 11-04-2013
Personal opinion here, I don't feel that any dog has a place around dck's. If I had a dog I would keep it in a seperate portion of the house. As a parent of kids that used to go to a home dc, I chose her over another because she did not have dogs. Kids are kids, and dogs are dogs and even the best providers can not watch everything at every moment. All it takes is one pull of the ear or tail and ANY breed of dog, not just pitbulls, can bite a child. Not worth the worry as a parent or the liability as a provider, IMO.
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Familycare71 06:51 AM 11-04-2013
Early on I actually fostered dogs and had them out with my dck! I have no idea what I was thinking!!! I had no history on these dogs. I was actually attacked by one of the fostered dogs. It was a jack russle- after that... I learned!
I would personally not allow my child in a dc that had any type of unknown dog around them- it just isn't safe!
FYI- I have 5 dogs- I LOVE dogs (including pitbulls) None of my dogs are with dck- it is more for my dogs protection than the dck- but it really ensures everyone's safety!
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Leigh 07:10 AM 11-04-2013
I think that ANY dog around the daycare kids is not a good idea. I have dogs that are very gentle, love kids, and are obedient. I would never have them around my daycare kids. I would never leave them unsupervised with my OWN kid.

Kids' interactions with dogs need to be supervised when kids are under school age. ANY dog can bite. Most kids that get bit by dogs provoked it themselves, even if accidentally. I love my dogs too much to risk having to euthanize them because of a bite that could have been prevented.

I would especially not want a fostered dog around the kids, as the dog's breeding and background is usually not known.

As far as pit-bull types go, aggression can be caused by both nature AND nurture. Some dogs become aggressive because of the way that they are raised. A lot of dogs become aggressive because of genetics. For many years, aggressive traits were desirable in these dogs because they were used for fighting. These dogs are often very irresponsibly bred by owners who neglect to spay/neuter or breed for the fun of it, or just to try to make some cash. These breeders don't take care in selecting a mate for their dogs based on complementary traits, but rather breed through negligence or because of greed or selfishness.

Those irresponsible breeders give today's "pit-bull" a bad name. You'll find some wonderful APBT's, Staffies, and mixed pit-bull types who are wonderful dogs. You'll find plenty of unstable dogs, as well. These unstable dogs are found in many breeds-and are usually the direct result of human negligence.

I wouldn't worry about the breed of dog, but rather about ANY dog in daycare.
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caregiver 07:11 AM 11-04-2013
This is not really the topic that was started, but still is related. I guess for me, having a dog in my home as a pet and doing daycare would not bother me, but it would have to be a small dog. I do not currently have a dog, but do have a very friendly cat, who loves being around the kids, is very good with the kids and my dck's love her. I think that having a pet in the house,something that is small, NOT a pitbull, but like a poodle or something that size or a cat is really good for the kids. It teaches them how to respect & treat a pet. I think it is a good learning experience for them. I teach the kids how to be gentle and how to pet my cat. Some of my dck's in the past have pets at home,so they are used to being around them.
I do believe that it is important to keep your pet up to date with yearly exams and shots, which I do so that my dcp's know that they are healthy and not carrying any disease around the kids. My cat gets her rabies and distemper shot every year so that parents know she is good with that.
So I think that it is a personal choice if you want to have a dog in your home doing daycare,but it is important to teach the kids how to treat and respect that pet. Also for me, a pet of any kind adds SO much to your life. They make you laugh when they do funny things and give you that unconditional love. They are a joy for me and my cat is so much part of my family, she is family.
Oh and when I do interviews, I am up front with parents about what pets I have or would be getting and then they can decide it they want their child here for daycare. Most of the dcp's have had no problems with their kids here with my cat or even with dogs would be no problem for them. Animals are a part of life and kids are going to have to learn how deal with them in their life at some time. I think it is how we as providers teach the kids about animals and show them the right way to treat them. But if I did have a dog that wasn't good with kids, then I guess I would not do daycare,which would be just common sense,so I would have to have a good pet with kids or it would not make sense to have kids around it, and it would not be kind to the animal to have it put in another room all day. Just my opinion on the issue,not making any judgements on anyone.
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Unregistered 07:16 AM 11-04-2013
I'm a member but logged out. I have dogs in daycare. 2 actually. One is a "dalmation Mix" but it clearly a pure bred pit. I trust my dogs fully. But I do not trust the children. Children are stressful. We all know that. It only takes one split moment when the stress has built up that will cause a dog, who has no other history of aggression, to bite. Its not the dogs fault. But its a liability. My dogs are kept separate from the kids during care hours. Mostly to protect them. With fostering dogs, I would be extremely concerned about the dogs being out and about with the children. Not necessarily with the pitbull breed specifically, but with any dog. Pit bulls are more likely to show aggression towards other dogs than children, in fact, they were the babysitters of history. Very tolerant towards children. Still, I would not trust the stress layered up on the dog, presented by children. With fostering any breed you are unaware of their history, temperament and tolerance of stress. A lot of insurances also do not cover "Bully" breeds. Pit bulls definitely fall under this category which is why I have logged out. As far as we know, on all her paper work and vet records, she's a Dalmatian mix and is covered on our insurance. We've never presented her as any thing else. I would definitely express concern about where the dogs are kept during care hours. If they are unwilling to keep the dogs separate I would find care elsewhere.
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SSWonders 07:17 AM 11-04-2013
Honestly, ANY dog in daycare is a risk. I had a cocker spaniel many years ago. He was a "good" dog, until he bit a one year old dck in the face. She had two puncture wounds, one on each side of her mouth. She is now 24 years old and her face is scarred. To this day I feel horrible about it. The dog was rehomed immediately to my in-laws. However, even while there he tried to bite my daughter when she reached for one of his toys. She was the same age as the dck. Unfortunately, even though he was no longer in our home, we couldn't take any more risks and had to put him down. I wouldn't want cats around the children either as my son needed a plastic surgeon to put his face back together when he was 3, after he tried to pick up our cat by the tail. At 22, his face is also scarred. In my opinion it is not worth the risk. UNLESS, there is a way to insure that the dogs are kept away from the children at all times.
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caregiver 07:53 AM 11-04-2013
I'm sorry, but I don't agree with not having pets of any kind in your home if you are doing daycare. It is HOW you teach the kids to behave and treat a pet kindly. If they have pets at home, then they should be used to having a pet around during the day. I don't feel you should have kids around a pet that is not good with kids, so therefore you need to decide if you want the pet or want to do daycare. You can not shelter kids from animals as they are a part of life and they will have to come in contact with animals at some point in their life. So at a young age, they need to learn how to react,treat and how to get along with animals. If you don't want the dck's around any animals, then your right, don't have any in your home,but pets like I said, do add so much to your life,give you joy,love and it is all how you so to say, bring your pet up, just like a child,treat them good,give them lots of love and hopefully you can have kids and a pet. You have to know your pet and if they will be good with kids and if they won't then it is up to you to decide what you have to do. But I would not sway from having a pet just because I do daycare.
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Blackcat31 08:24 AM 11-04-2013
Originally Posted by Unregistered:
I know this is going to get some people riled up, but how do you feel about pitbulls being fostered for a rescue group in a daycare home?

I know the breed can be wonderful dogs, but I also know that those with difficult temperaments can be extremely dangerous. I have a friend with a child in a daycare where the fostered pitbulls are out and about with the kids, and she is really concerned.

As providers, what are your thoughts?
I don't think it matters one bit what any of us think. What matters in this situation is your friend is concerned.

If I were your friend, I would do whatever I felt was necessary to keep my child safe. If I didn't like dogs or didn't want my child around a specific breed or ANY pet, then I wouldn't enroll in a child care where pets were present.

We ALL have our own opinions and our own thoughts on the subject but NONE of those thoughts and opinions matter to your friend.

Just like the only thoughts and opinions from parents that concern me are the ones interested in my program.

If I had a dog, wanted to get a dog or foster dogs, I would need to know that my daycare parents were ok with that. IF they weren't I wouldn't do it.

Many providers would just not take the family if the family objected to the dog.

Bottom line is your friend needs to do what makes her comfortable.

The rest is just fluff.
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caregiver 08:34 AM 11-04-2013
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
I don't think it matters one bit what any of us think. What matters in this situation is your friend is concerned.

If I were your friend, I would do whatever I felt was necessary to keep my child safe. If I didn't like dogs or didn't want my child around a specific breed or ANY pet, then I wouldn't enroll in a child care where pets were present.

We ALL have our own opinions and our own thoughts on the subject but NONE of those thoughts and opinions matter to your friend.

Just like the only thoughts and opinions from parents that concern me are the ones interested in my program.

If I had a dog, wanted to get a dog or foster dogs, I would need to know that my daycare parents were ok with that. IF they weren't I wouldn't do it.

Many providers would just not take the family if the family objected to the dog.

Bottom line is your friend needs to do what makes her comfortable.

The rest is just fluff.

Totally agree!
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daycarediva 08:48 AM 11-04-2013
Originally Posted by littlemissmuffet:
I personally would not have any kind of dog while running a daycare. It's too much of a risk FOR ME, but I fully support other childcare providers having dogs while doing childcare.


That is how I feel as well.

If it isn't a good fit for your friend with a dog in the home, then by all means, she needs to find a new child care arrangement that she feels comfortable about.

I have cats, and only take kids 18months+, every interaction with them is supervised, and it STILL makes me nervous. We actually JUST installed locking cat doors so that our cats can stay on a separate floor from the daycare kids, and so far, I haven't even seen one today during daycare hours.
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Laurel 09:08 AM 11-04-2013
Originally Posted by Scout:
Personal opinion here, I don't feel that any dog has a place around dck's. If I had a dog I would keep it in a seperate portion of the house. As a parent of kids that used to go to a home dc, I chose her over another because she did not have dogs. Kids are kids, and dogs are dogs and even the best providers can not watch everything at every moment. All it takes is one pull of the ear or tail and ANY breed of dog, not just pitbulls, can bite a child. Not worth the worry as a parent or the liability as a provider, IMO.


Our licensing laws do not allow us to have dogs around the children. They must be kept separately and not be in the same room with the children or outside with them. My daycare liability insurance does not cover certain breeds and that includes bull mastiff (I think they call it).

I personally would pull my child immediately if my provider had a pitbull. That said, my grandchildren lived in the same house with one for a year and it was a friendly dog but the owner had had it since it was young and trained it himself. Even in that case, I'd pull. Just too risky with ANY dog around a child.

Laurel
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TwinKristi 09:12 AM 11-04-2013
My liability insurance prevents me from having specific breeds like pit bulls, etc. anything deemed an aggressive breed. I don't care for dogs much anyway so it's not an issue but I wouldn't feel safe with kids and dogs mixed.
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Play Care 09:14 AM 11-04-2013
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
I don't think it matters one bit what any of us think. What matters in this situation is your friend is concerned.

If I were your friend, I would do whatever I felt was necessary to keep my child safe. If I didn't like dogs or didn't want my child around a specific breed or ANY pet, then I wouldn't enroll in a child care where pets were present.

We ALL have our own opinions and our own thoughts on the subject but NONE of those thoughts and opinions matter to your friend.

Just like the only thoughts and opinions from parents that concern me are the ones interested in my program.

If I had a dog, wanted to get a dog or foster dogs, I would need to know that my daycare parents were ok with that. IF they weren't I wouldn't do it.

Many providers would just not take the family if the family objected to the dog.

Bottom line is your friend needs to do what makes her comfortable.

The rest is just fluff.

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Luna 09:39 AM 11-04-2013
I agree, all that matters is how your friend feels about it. If she is uncomfortable she should let the provider know. Who knows, maybe she won't foster dogs if she knows she could lose a family.
I remember reading somewhere years ago that children under 4 just aren't equipped to make good decisions when it comes to dogs. Tail-pulling, ear-tugging, kicking, throwing things at it...so many things that can lead to disaster. Also, every single time I hear a news story about a dog attacking a child, the owner says they just can't believe it, the dog has never shown aggression before. Every time.
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Soccermom 09:40 AM 11-04-2013
Originally Posted by Unregistered:
I know this is going to get some people riled up, but how do you feel about pitbulls being fostered for a rescue group in a daycare home?

I know the breed can be wonderful dogs, but I also know that those with difficult temperaments can be extremely dangerous. I have a friend with a child in a daycare where the fostered pitbulls are out and about with the kids, and she is really concerned.

As providers, what are your thoughts?
I have a pitbull mix dog and she is the sweetest girl! The daycare kids just love her and she loves them too. She greets them all at the door with tons of kisses and sends them home the same way

However she is extremely well trained and she has been with the daycare kids since she was 6 weeks old so she sees them as her family.

She doesn't spend the whole day with us but I do allow her to come and visit us during the day and we take her for a morning walk with us.

Having said that, I wouldn't want a foster dog around daycare kids because they were not raised in a daycare and it could be too much stimulation and stress for a dog. It could cause the dog to become aggressive towards the children.
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Brooksie 09:48 AM 11-04-2013
Originally Posted by Soccermom:
I have a pitbull mix dog and she is the sweetest girl! The daycare kids just love her and she loves them too. She greets them all at the door with tons of kisses and sends them home the same way

However she is extremely well trained and she has been with the daycare kids since she was 6 weeks old so she sees them as her family.

She doesn't spend the whole day with us but I do allow her to come and visit us during the day and we take her for a morning walk with us.

Having said that, I wouldn't want a foster dog around daycare kids because they were not raised in a daycare and it could be too much stimulation and stress for a dog. It could cause the dog to become aggressive towards the children.
There is a difference in a dog who LOVES kids and a dog that tolerates them. With a foster you don't have enough time with that dog to know for sure how they will handle the kids.
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GKJNIGMN 09:56 AM 11-04-2013
I don't know that I would be ok with fostering a dog because you don't know enough about the temperment. Our old provider fostered and one of her dogs bit me.

We, however, do have a pitbull. He was a rescue and it took a long time for us to find a dog that the organization would let us adopt because our own son is only 3. This dog has been termperment tested, my son could but is not allowed to lay on him, pull his tail, put his head in the food bowl, etc. We still do not allow him near DCKs. He stays in his crate during the day in the kitchen which is separated by a gate. The kids bother him too much and he hasn't been fully broken of jumping. It's no different than when I worked outside the home and he was crated during the day. I know at least one of my DCKs has 2 pitbulls at home. I just make the parents aware that I have a dog and that he is kept separate. They are always welcome to see him but not one of the parents has ever asked to or asked any questions about him at all.
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Josiegirl 10:06 AM 11-04-2013
I've had several dcps tell me they're glad I have dogs because it exposes their kids to them. The others already have dogs in their family. My dogs love the kids and the kids love my dogs. They are all well-supervised. Mine are both lab mixes and the one I had before these 2 was a lab mix as well. I realize it's a risk mixing kids and animals, but then isn't everything we do every single day somewhat of a risk?
I'd never get a pitbull because I see the risk increasing hundred fold and my insurance wouldn't cover. I know a dcprovider who has german shepards. At one time that breed was the 'feared' breed of the decade. And yes, her dogs are with the dcks.
My dd volunteers at a rescue shelter and sadly, there are many pitbulls that go through for fostering. She loves them.
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Unregistered 10:16 AM 11-04-2013
I am the OP, and I also have a dog and cat in my daycare home, but they are kept completely separate from the kids. My dog is very sweet, but can be rambunctious and the kids sometimes jump out at him when he runs by to go outside. I would never trust the kids around my pets, they are too unpredictable.

I was just a little shocked that the provider has a pitbull in her home, one of which she does not know the complete history. It would be a huge red flag to me if I were a parent, as they can be more unpredictable than some other breeds.

I am surprised our licensing here allow it.
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Josiegirl 10:24 AM 11-04-2013
When I adopted my last dog this past May, the shelter kept telling me what a sweet dog she was, just a peach, and was 1 1/2 yrs. old. I guess I was pretty lucky they were honest with me cause I took them at their word. Thinking back, I'm not sure how I would've handled it if she came with a totally unexpected temperament. She IS a pure sweetheart through and through even without her history known. But I understand when you add unknown background and pitbull together. It's not a chance I'd want to take at all.
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Blackcat31 10:45 AM 11-04-2013
Originally Posted by Unregistered:
I am the OP, and I also have a dog and cat in my daycare home, but they are kept completely separate from the kids. My dog is very sweet, but can be rambunctious and the kids sometimes jump out at him when he runs by to go outside. I would never trust the kids around my pets, they are too unpredictable.

I was just a little shocked that the provider has a pitbull in her home, one of which she does not know the complete history. It would be a huge red flag to me if I were a parent, as they can be more unpredictable than some other breeds.

I am surprised our licensing here allow it.
Was your friend notified BEFORE the provider got the dog that she was getting one? Has the provider always fostered dogs or is this a new venture for her?

Does this provider keep the dogs separated from the children? Does she practice good behaviors to protect the kids?

I am just surprised that your friend hasn't asked any of these questions...... she can't just assume that the provider got a pit bull (or any other dog) therefore her child is in danger now...kwim?

There isn't any reason why anyone should be surprised if the provider is doing everything she is required to do to not only keep the children safe but the dogs too.

Seems to me the biggest problem here is the lack of communication between your friend and her provider.
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Lavender 11:23 AM 11-04-2013
I fostered dogs when we lived in CA. There is no way I would have them out with daycare kids. I temperament tested every single dog before I borught it home to make sure it would be fine with my (school age) kids and that they didn't have a prey drive since I also had cats. Even so we did have an incident once and I have scars on my arms from my injuries when breaking up the fight between 2 fosters who just somehow didn't like each other. You never know with ANY animal, but most especially with a foster.

BTW I foster shepherds and one of my dogs in a shepherd and bully breed mix. I have no issues with properly trained and socialized pit bulls (love them actually) and my opinions have nothing to do with the breed of dog. That part of the question is irrelevant IMO. NO foster dogs should be around DCKs in my own opinion.
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Lucy 11:59 AM 11-04-2013
A no vote from me.
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KidGrind 02:20 PM 11-04-2013
Originally Posted by Unregistered:
I know this is going to get some people riled up, but how do you feel about pitbulls being fostered for a rescue group in a daycare home?

I know the breed can be wonderful dogs, but I also know that those with difficult temperaments can be extremely dangerous. I have a friend with a child in a daycare where the fostered pitbulls are out and about with the kids, and she is really concerned.

As providers, what are your thoughts?
The only issue for me is dogs whatever generic term used or breed should not be out and about with the kids. Pomeranian, Staffordshire Terrier, German Shepard, etc; they should be gated away or crated.
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Michael 03:20 PM 11-04-2013
From a man's perspective; I don't think dogs should be in the daycare environment. While all dogs can snap for whatever reason, a pit bull's bite can be dangerous. Why take the chance of liability? Some stats:

A 9-year (1979–88) review of fatal dog attacks in the United States determined that, of the 101 attacks in which breed was recorded, pit bulls were implicated in 42 of those attacks (42%). A 1991 study found that 94% of attacks on children by pit bulls were unprovoked, compared to 43% for other breeds. A 5-year (1989–94) review of fatal dog attacks in the U.S. determined that pit bulls and pit bull mixed breeds were implicated in 24 (29%) of the 84 deaths in which breed was recorded.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit_bull

I'm a certified diver. Changes are, I am not going to get bit by a shark. That being said, I make sure I don't swim with sharks.
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Cradle2crayons 03:30 PM 11-04-2013
I have dogs in my daycare home and don't have a problem if my kids daycare home had a dog.

HOWEVER, and a huge however, I have a problem with my daycare home or my kids being around a FOSTER ADOG INA. DAYCARE HOME. there is too much question as to the dogs history.

I know any dog can do any thing, but my dogs are 5 and 6 and I've had them since they were six weeks. Foster dogs have a questionable past. Their behavior and temperament aren't well known,

Seems to me a dog fostering agency has no business being in a daycare home,
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Live and Learn 04:19 PM 11-04-2013
........NO THANK YOU TO PITBULLS AROUND DAYCARE KIDS!
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Maria2013 04:38 PM 11-04-2013
Originally Posted by Scout:
Personal opinion here, I don't feel that any dog has a place around dck's. If I had a dog I would keep it in a seperate portion of the house. As a parent of kids that used to go to a home dc, I chose her over another because she did not have dogs. Kids are kids, and dogs are dogs and even the best providers can not watch everything at every moment. All it takes is one pull of the ear or tail and ANY breed of dog, not just pitbulls, can bite a child. Not worth the worry as a parent or the liability as a provider, IMO.

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Sunchimes 04:43 PM 11-04-2013
First, I never let my dogs around the dck even though they were great dogs and loved kids. The truth is that they are dogs and as such, they are unpredictable.

Second, fostering dogs of any kind can be dangerous. I was active in rescue, and I've seen some scary things, even in dogs we thought were perfect.

Third, my sister has a pit bull that she raised from a tiny puppy. Over the weekend, she attacked the other family dog (one that she has known since puppyhood) and bit my sister (that was an accident, she was aiming for the other dog and my sister got in the way). Sis had to go to the ER, they reported the bite, and now the dog is in quarantine. Since they have no children in the house and had proof of shots, they let her stay on in-home quarantine. They looked through the house and selected a room in the back of the house and said she had to stay in there. She can't be out in the rest of the house and can't go on walks, and she can only go in the backyard supervised on a leash. The animal control has already made one surprise visit to be sure she wasn't out of the room. As much as they love the dog, they may have to have her put down to protect the other dogs in the family. So unpredictable.
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Willow 06:06 PM 11-04-2013
Owning a dog in a daycare home - fine (and I do)
Fostering dogs in a daycare home within reason - fine (and I do)
Restricting access 100% - necessary (and I do)

All of my fosters are assessed and have far better temperaments than your average house pet.

I'd rather take a "pit bull" foster over most other breeds (if my insurance allowed it). Although they were bred to be aggressive towards other animals their inherent tendency to be marshmallows with people preceeds them. They aren't declared "nanny dogs" for no reason. Their bite force being sky high is a myth. Some studies place them at the bottom of the top 5 or 10, others have declared their psi (pounds per square inch) bearly matches that of a human. The reason they have the notorious reputation they do is because they tend to draw shady owners. It's certainly undeserved. Put any breed of a dog with an unscrupulous human being and there is no doubt the dog will land itself in trouble.

I've stepped into many a shelter dogs kennels. Small breeds are typically the nastiest. Large breeds are the most unpredictable, putting on a good show until you're in strike range. Pulling "pit bulls" from that group they are by far the most honest and predictable in my experience.


I don't care what the breed of dog is, if someone takes a lacksidasical attitude towards dog ownership I wouldn't be leaving my children in that situation. They are super savvy when it comes to animals, but not savvy enough to handle someone elses dog in it's home environment.

No child is.

I don't care how "nice" the owners say it is.

OP - Hopefully the provider is smart enough to keep the dog separated. Aside from that I'm not sure why you think licensing should have a problem with it?
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BrooklynM 06:21 PM 11-04-2013
No matter what type of dog, it shouldn't be out an about with the kids unless it is a service dog of course. I don't really care what breed it is. One of my best friends lost her son due to a dog attack. He was 4 years old. Our sons were a month apart in age. this was 7 years ago. They were staying with friends and the owners assured her that the dogs were safe and they love kids. One of the dogs just attacked the little boy very quickly. They operated on him overnight, but he died of internal injuries. It was not a Pit Bull. I'm not going to even say what type of dog it was because I don't want to put that breed down, but it was a large dog.

I have a Rat Terrier that I rescued and I LOVE my dog. I sleep with her every night (she likes to be under the covers) and she is like my 3rd child. She has never ever shown any agression but I keep her seperated from the kids at all times because I cannot predict the babies behavior and how she will react to them.

I would be very leary of a daycare that let the dogs just roam around freely with the kids like that. Your friend has every right to be concerned. If it were me, I would pull my child immediately!
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Willow 06:24 PM 11-04-2013
Originally Posted by Michael:
From a man's perspective; I don't think dogs should be in the daycare environment. While all dogs can snap for whatever reason, a pit bull's bite can be dangerous. Why take the chance of liability? Some stats:

A 9-year (1979–88) review of fatal dog attacks in the United States determined that, of the 101 attacks in which breed was recorded, pit bulls were implicated in 42 of those attacks (42%). A 1991 study found that 94% of attacks on children by pit bulls were unprovoked, compared to 43% for other breeds. A 5-year (1989–94) review of fatal dog attacks in the U.S. determined that pit bulls and pit bull mixed breeds were implicated in 24 (29%) of the 84 deaths in which breed was recorded.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit_bull

I'm a certified diver. Changes are, I am not going to get bit by a shark. That being said, I make sure I don't swim with sharks.

I understand your concern is a common one, but to compare apples to apples it's only fair to compare those numbers against all breeds.

"Pit bull" is not a breed. It's a lump term to describe a number of breeds and mixed breeds. It's hard to sort out what exactly constitutes a "pit bull" when most people can't correctly identify any breed they're looking at.

Just as Labradors are the number one dog implicated in dog bite incidents, you have to keep that in perspective. It certainly doesn't mean Labradors are disproportionately dangerious, it's just the way the cards fall because more people own Labradors than any other breed.

More information:
https://www.avma.org/KB/Resources/Ba...revention.aspx
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Michael 06:28 PM 11-04-2013
Originally Posted by Willow:
Their bite force being sky high is a myth.
Can you provide information supporting your notion that the bite force of a Pit Bull is not dangerous and a myth?

What would you attribute almost 50% of all fatal dog attacks by Pit Bull? That's a very high percentage.

The number one killer is a Rottweiler. http://www.nytimes.com/2000/09/16/us...tudy-says.html

I would take on a Labrador any day.
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Willow 07:15 PM 11-04-2013
Originally Posted by Michael:
Can you provide information supporting your notion that the bite force of a Pit Bull is not dangerous and a myth?

What would you attribute almost 50% of all fatal dog attacks by Pit Bull? That's a very high percentage.

The number one killer is a Rottweiler. http://www.nytimes.com/2000/09/16/us...tudy-says.html

I would take on a Labrador any day.
Again, "pit bulls" are not a breed. There truly is no such thing. That's why on any credible study done they'll list "pit bull type".....because the breed of dog merely looked like one of any number of breeds people easily associate with the term.

It would be like saying every large black dog is a Labrador. Not an accurate assessment by a long shot of most.


As far as Rottweiler's or "pit bull type" dogs being the number one killers you can't just look at that one piece of the puzzle. Who owns them and why matters just as much as breed does. One could argue that *human beings* as a whole are dangerous if you only consider the stats compiled in inner city Chicago. Does that actually mean we all are? That we could pick it apart further and blame an entire minority? Or are there extenuating circumstances that leads that cluster to end up in more dire straights than others?

All of human kind cannot and should not be judged by a small extremist sampling any more than all of a particular dog breed can or should be judged by a small extremist sampling.

The media has a lot to do with current perceptions. Just as a young, blonde haired, blue eyed, fair skinned missing child will always get more media coverage than a young, black haired, brown eyed dark skinned child - a "pit bull type" dog attacking someone will always get more media coverage than a poodle doing the exact same thing.

"Friendly" breeds attack far more than "pit bull type" dogs do, and most people don't have a clue that that's fact.



http://www.thedogpress.com/Columns/D...cs-09_Jade.asp

http://www.aspca.org/pet-care/virtua...bout-pit-bulls

Just for fun:
http://www.pickthepit.com/
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hgonzalez 04:46 AM 11-05-2013
The term 'pit bull' can mean any of the 'bull terrier' type breeds.

I used to work for a pet sitting service and took dogs into my home for pet sitting. This was before my daycare days. I was bitten twice; once by a Staffordshire Terrier-Mix (a bully breed) and once by a Rottweiler.

Because of the structure of the jaws and bodies of these breeds of dogs, they are more dangerous if and when they do attack. That is why we hear more about them, they can cause SERIOUS damage, even kill, if they do attack. Even though other breeds can bite, we rarely hear about a serious 'Dachshund' attack.

Also, there are many good breeders out there that breed 'pit bulls', but there are just as many bad ones. They are often bred to fight, and to be intimidating. It does not mean there are not sweet, loving 'pit bulls' out there, but the odds are too high that something could go wrong IMO.

I personally would not take a chance on owning one and running a daycare. Not worth the risk.

Here is some good info http://www.ask.com/wiki/Pit_bull?o=2...apn&ap=ask.com
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Brooksie 05:24 AM 11-05-2013
Originally Posted by Willow:
Owning a dog in a daycare home - fine (and I do)
Fostering dogs in a daycare home within reason - fine (and I do)
Restricting access 100% - necessary (and I do)

All of my fosters are assessed and have far better temperaments than your average house pet.

I'd rather take a "pit bull" foster over most other breeds (if my insurance allowed it). Although they were bred to be aggressive towards other animals their inherent tendency to be marshmallows with people preceeds them. They aren't declared "nanny dogs" for no reason. Their bite force being sky high is a myth. Some studies place them at the bottom of the top 5 or 10, others have declared their psi (pounds per square inch) bearly matches that of a human. The reason they have the notorious reputation they do is because they tend to draw shady owners. It's certainly undeserved. Put any breed of a dog with an unscrupulous human being and there is no doubt the dog will land itself in trouble.

I've stepped into many a shelter dogs kennels. Small breeds are typically the nastiest. Large breeds are the most unpredictable, putting on a good show until you're in strike range. Pulling "pit bulls" from that group they are by far the most honest and predictable in my experience.


I don't care what the breed of dog is, if someone takes a lacksidasical attitude towards dog ownership I wouldn't be leaving my children in that situation. They are super savvy when it comes to animals, but not savvy enough to handle someone elses dog in it's home environment.

No child is.

I don't care how "nice" the owners say it is.

OP - Hopefully the provider is smart enough to keep the dog separated. Aside from that I'm not sure why you think licensing should have a problem with it?

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Willow 06:02 AM 11-05-2013
Originally Posted by hgonzalez:
The term 'pit bull' can mean any of the 'bull terrier' type breeds.

I used to work for a pet sitting service and took dogs into my home for pet sitting. This was before my daycare days. I was bitten twice; once by a Staffordshire Terrier-Mix (a bully breed) and once by a Rottweiler.

Because of the structure of the jaws and bodies of these breeds of dogs, they are more dangerous if and when they do attack. That is why we hear more about them, they can cause SERIOUS damage, even kill, if they do attack. Even though other breeds can bite, we rarely hear about a serious 'Dachshund' attack.

Also, there are many good breeders out there that breed 'pit bulls', but there are just as many bad ones. They are often bred to fight, and to be intimidating. It does not mean there are not sweet, loving 'pit bulls' out there, but the odds are too high that something could go wrong IMO.

I personally would not take a chance on owning one and running a daycare. Not worth the risk.

Here is some good info http://www.ask.com/wiki/Pit_bull?o=2...apn&ap=ask.com
It is total myth that "pit bull type" dogs and Rottweillers have jaws that work any differently than any other breed of dog does and there are loads of breeds who are stronger......which is why you won't see them guarding livestock, doing water and mountain rescue or going in before a law enforcement officer to pursue a suspect.

Idiot owners get them *thinking* they are brutes in mind and body, and the media perpetuates that stereotype. In no way shape or form is it true. Yes they are terriers and along with that comes tenacity, and they were originally bred to do a pretty intense job, but that doesn't have anything to do with their inherent tendency to be GENTLE AS HECK with people.

Most that try to turn "pit bull type" dogs nasty towards humans - fail. And they are no more aggressive towards other animals than any other terrier or guardian type breed is.

That a dog has a tendency to be animal aggressive has nothing to do with a tendency to be aggressive towards people.


The only reason we don't hear about serious Dachshund attacks is because the media would never report such a thing. "Pit bull type" dogs have become like literal monsters. More times than not a dog initially identified in an attack as a "pit bull type" is disproven once the dust settles and you actually get an expert pair of eyes on the animal. I've personally seen it happen near hundreds of times and all of the animal rescue associated people I network with will tell anyone the same.

I have a friend near Seattle who got called to assess a purported "pit bull" dog after an attack. She got there and was shocked to discover it was actually a Briard.........A BRIARD for crimineys sake!!!!!!

Did the media print a retraction or follow up story???

Nope.

And they never do.


Breed mis-identification, misinformation and even politics come into play in regards to the current plight of bully breeds in general.
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hgonzalez 06:12 AM 11-05-2013
But doesn't the fact that they have a predisposition of being aggressive towards other animals scare you? I mean, sometimes little kids make weird noises or movements that may seem animal-like to another animal.

The fact that they have any tendency to be aggressive towards any other living creatures is scary enough for me. Also, you seriously don't think that physical structure (the large jaws and head) of a bully breed or Rottweiler can cause more damage than say a smaller breed with a narrow head and jaw?
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jenn 06:30 AM 11-05-2013
I am in Kansas. The regulations from the department of health says -Pit bulldogs are prohibited.
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Willow 06:45 AM 11-05-2013
Originally Posted by hgonzalez:
But doesn't the fact that they have a predisposition of being aggressive towards other animals scare you? I mean, sometimes little kids make weird noises or movements that may seem animal-like to another animal.

The fact that they have any tendency to be aggressive towards any other living creatures is scary enough for me. Also, you seriously don't think that physical structure (the large jaws and head) of a bully breed or Rottweiler can cause more damage than say a smaller breed with a narrow head and jaw?
Their pre-disposition to being aggressive towards other animals doesn't scare me any more than it does in ANY breed.

Do I think that because a Border Collie will bite at the heels of sheep and cattle, that that'll naturally predispose them to bite people? No. Although I'll tell you I've seen them do it far more than I've seen a "pit bull type" dog bite the face of human in the same way the bit onto the face of a wild animal to hold it.......

Decently bred and stable minded dogs know the difference. Taking that a step further my dogs don't even blink in the direction of my cats but if there's a stray outside? All bets are off. My Miniature Pinscher will play gently with house pet guinea pigs, rabbits and my daughters chinchilla, but will on any give day bring me back headless squirrels, gophers and wild rabbits. And he is the furthest thing possible from decently bred or stable minded.

I understand why someone wouldn't think it worth the risk to give them that much credit but behavior experts will tell you dogs can and do know the difference.


The list of dogs that are INHERENTLY aggressive towards other animals is astounding. I'd go so far as to say most have an inkling in some way to snap. "Pit bull types" are only several of many MANY. So if that's a deal breaker for you you best consider ALL that have that in them....that means all your guardian breeds, sight hounds, herders, most of your working breeds, sporting dogs, most of your toy breeds, hounds, terriers, pinschers etc......big and small.

My Pug btw has a ridiculously wide jaw and he couldn't clamp down onto air if he wanted to.

I don't think there is no difference between the jaw mechinism of a "pit bull type" dog, I know. That they have a wider bite does not mean that the jaw is also somehow magically stronger. They've done studies regarding this. Gruesome one's really that involve sedated dogs who have electrical current run through different points in their head, and they ended with the dogs being euthanized, but yeah. That's total myth. The mechanism and strength of bite has more to do with genetics than anything else. You can easily find a Maltese with a stronger bite than a "pit bull type" if said "pit bull" has an over or underbite (as many MANY of them do). Same would go for the German Shepherds and Malinois law enforcement often recruit for K9 work. Theres a reason they dont just snag any Fido from a shelter and the recruits often run upwards of $10-20,000/dog. They know that sub standard breeding can net them an animal that doesnt have the ability to take on a stuffed animal even though genetically its still 100% Malinois.
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Leanna 06:47 AM 11-05-2013
Ok...let me start by saying I am not a dog person. I've been bitten twice (at age 12 by our family dog, a German Shepherd mix and at age 19 visiting a family friend by a schnauzer) and my DS was bitten just walking down the street by a Bichon frise).

I agree that dogs and children do not mix and you should always keep your dog away from your DCK's.

HOWEVER, there is a lot of misinformation in this thread. There is no such breed as a "pit bull." Pit bull is a slang term people use to describe any dog with a big head, cropped ears, brindle coat, eye patch, and stocky body. What people really mean when they say "pit bull" is usually a American Pitbull terrier, American Staffordshire Terrier, Staffordshire Bull terriers, or a mix.

"Pitbulls" do not a locking jaws. This is a myth. Their jaws are not inherently different than other dogs.

In a study done by the American Temperament Testing Society "pitbulls" scored better than beagles and Golden Retrievers. (See www.ATTS.org for a complete list - they tested 122 breeds).

"Pitbulls" get a bad rap because they have become associated with gang culture, dog fighting, poverty, etc. Really, anyone can have one and they are an easy breed to train. It DOES make a difference on how you raise the dog and whether or not it is neutered. SO, like any dog, responsible ownership is a must.

Here is a quote from Cesar Milan, the "dog whisperer":
"My kids are around pit bulls every day. In the '70s they blamed Dobermans,in the '80s they blamed German shepherds, in the '90s they blamed the Rottweiler. Now they blame the pit bull."

No, I don't have a dog. No, I never will. Yes, I cross the street when I am walking and someone has a dog. BUT I don't discriminate based on breed because I know so much we think is true is myth or urban legend.
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Brooksie 06:51 AM 11-05-2013
Originally Posted by Leanna:
Ok...let me start by saying I am not a dog person. I've been bitten twice (at age 12 by our family dog, a German Shepherd mix and at age 19 visiting a family friend by a schnauzer) and my DS was bitten just walking down the street by a Bichon frise).

I agree that dogs and children do not mix and you should always keep your dog away from your DCK's.

HOWEVER, there is a lot of misinformation in this thread. There is no such breed as a "pit bull." Pit bull is a slang term people use to describe any dog with a big head, cropped ears, brindle coat, eye patch, and stocky body. What people really mean when they say "pit bull" is usually a American Pitbull terrier, American Staffordshire Terrier, Staffordshire Bull terriers, or a mix.

"Pitbulls" do not a locking jaws. This is a myth. Their jaws are not inherently different than other dogs.

In a study done by the American Temperament Testing Society "pitbulls" scored better than beagles and Golden Retrievers. (See www.ATTS.org for a complete list - they tested 122 breeds).

"Pitbulls" get a bad rap because they have become associated with gang culture, dog fighting, poverty, etc. Really, anyone can have one and they are an easy breed to train. It DOES make a difference on how you raise the dog and whether or not it is neutered. SO, like any dog, responsible ownership is a must.

Here is a quote from Cesar Milan, the "dog whisperer":
"My kids are around pit bulls every day. In the '70s they blamed Dobermans,in the '80s they blamed German shepherds, in the '90s they blamed the Rottweiler. Now they blame the pit bull."

No, I don't have a dog. No, I never will. Yes, I cross the street when I am walking and someone has a dog. BUT I don't discriminate based on breed because I know so much we think is true is myth or urban legend.

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hgonzalez 07:04 AM 11-05-2013
So if an American Staffordshire Terrier is running toward you fast looking straight at you and in the other direction, there is a Cavalier King Charles Spaniel running at you, you would not feel more threatened by the Am Staff than the Cav?
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Willow 07:12 AM 11-05-2013
Originally Posted by hgonzalez:
So if an American Staffordshire Terrier is running toward you fast looking straight at you and in the other direction, there is a Cavalier King Charles Spaniel running at you, you would not feel more threatened by the Am Staff than the Cav?
Would depend on the whole picture.

Any dog merely running toward me wouldnt scare me in the least.

Now if a CKCS was running toward me with hackles up, ears pinned, hunkered low, tail high, lips curled, frothing, and barking assertively while the Staffy was running toward me with happy posture, ears and eyes relaxed, tail mid set and tongue wagging then absolutely I'd feel more threatened by the CKCS.

Simply running or running toward someone is not necessarily a threatening behavior unless you combine it with others.

Same would apply if the behaviors were reversed in those two breeds, or while using any two breeds of dog in existence to compare.



If behavior in both was identical I'd be grabbing my pepper spray to hit whoever was fixin to make it to me first.
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Blackcat31 07:21 AM 11-05-2013
Personally, I think OP started this thread so this conversation would get heated....

The issue posted in the original post is not really being discussed anymore and the conversation has turned into a debate about the danger of specific breeds.....

BOTTOM LINE is the parent needs to talk to the provider.

OP is in the discussion but has not answered the initial questions asked:

The parent needs to do whatever she needs to do in order to feel her child is safe.

REGARDLESS of whether the provider has a pit bull type dog or a teeny tiny poodle.
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Michael 02:31 PM 11-05-2013
Originally Posted by hgonzalez:
So if an American Staffordshire Terrier is running toward you fast looking straight at you and in the other direction, there is a Cavalier King Charles Spaniel running at you, you would not feel more threatened by the Am Staff than the Cav?

Yes, I know Pit Bull can be several breeds so I've taken several of the breeds that Wikipedia says are part of that group and decided to use a visual of what I think about those animals that should not be around young children. I think all dogs should be separated from the daycare environment IMO for several other reasons.


Probably Could Do Harm





Probably Not So likely To Do Major Harm


This is not a fear. Its a primal instinct. One can tell a snake may be venomous by a larger back jaw. Just seems logical.
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hgonzalez 03:26 PM 11-05-2013
Thank you, Michael. There is no doubt in my mind that the dogs in the upper row are more powerful based on physical attributes alone.

I am sure there are some perfectly lovely specimens, but I would not trust them around kids.
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Cradle2crayons 03:39 PM 11-05-2013
I agree there are a lot of questionable breeds.

My daughters dog is a service dog, more specifically an ESD. She's a jack Russell rat terrier mixed dog. She tops the scale at 12 lbs soaking wet. She's 8 years old and has been with my daughter since we picked her out at 6 weeks old. I could honestly trust her around any child, any animal, any situation.

Our weenie dog, well, he's a weenie dog. They tend to be protective by nature. I trust HIM more than I trust the kids with him. I'm more worried a child will hurt his legs or spine than I am anything. He IS a barker though.

Even though I trust my dogs and I know exactly how they will react to certain situations, I still don't trust every scenario when a child is involved.

Although my dogs are out during daycare (they sleep on the back of the couch that he kids aren't allowed to sit on), I monitor them 100% of the time. The daycare kids are never allowed to approach either dog without permission and me being in the scenario. It's not to prevent the kids from being injured as much as it is to prevent the kids from injuring the dogs.

I would be very uncomfortable leaving my kids in an environment where ANY animal wasn't supervised 100% of the time around children. And I wouldn't leave any animal and a child unsupervised here in my home either.

I don't have a problem with any specific breed, but in general if I had to pick I'd much rather it not be a large dog involved. Simply because they have more capability of doing damage compared to a small dog.
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Willow 04:18 PM 11-05-2013
Originally Posted by Michael:
Yes, I know Pit Bull can be several breeds so I've taken several of the breeds that Wikipedia says are part of that group and decided to use a visual of what I think about those animals that should not be around young children. I think all dogs should be separated from the daycare environment IMO for several other reasons.


Probably Could Do Harm





Probably Not So likely To Do Major Harm


This is not a fear. Its a primal instinct. One can tell a snake may be venomous by a larger back jaw. Just seems logical.

That logic is flawed when it comes to dogs though, which is evidenced by the fact that more people are bitten by Labrador Retrievers than any other breed. Everyone just assumes because they look cute and cuddly they must be safe.

It's also why people are constantly abandoning their animals when they pick out one out based soley on the way it looks as opposed to what it can and cannot contribute to their family.

The Slow Loris is one of the cutest harmless looking critters on the planet imho, but just touching it can kill you.

You cannot judge an animal by looks alone, especially when it comes to domesticated pets that have been bred for centuries to perform very specific tasks or live in very specific ways.


If you don't like "pit bull type" dogs that's fine. But there's no reason to further villianize them with already disproven myths about who and what they inherently are. Someone else offered a great link to how they placed in temperament tests. They truly are safer than many other common/harmless looking breeds and that's been proven time and time again.


eta - all we have up here for snakes are harmless. If I was out of my element somewhere else I wouldn't sit and contemplate the size or color of the jaw of a snake I ran across, I'd simply retreat (quickly and with terror) and assume all had deadly potential.....same would go for any animal I was completely unfamiliar with lol
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Brooksie 04:26 PM 11-05-2013
Originally Posted by Michael:
Yes, I know Pit Bull can be several breeds so I've taken several of the breeds that Wikipedia says are part of that group and decided to use a visual of what I think about those animals that should not be around young children. I think all dogs should be separated from the daycare environment IMO for several other reasons.


Probably Could Do Harm





Probably Not So likely To Do Major Harm


This is not a fear. Its a primal instinct. One can tell a snake may be venomous by a larger back jaw. Just seems logical.
I used to groom dogs and out of this group that you've posted, honestly, the CKCS was the nastiest. I've been bitten by them and other small breeds more than any thing else. Actually I've never been bitten by a Med/Large breed. I have never groomed or even come across a well treated bully breed that wasn't an absolute joy and sweet heart. I've worked in grooming, independently owned pet store and worked closely with the local Humane Society and the dogs that are most likely going to bite you are little fluffy ill tempered pooches. I hate small dogs because of how many horrible experiences I've had with them. So yea, if a smiling pit ran up to me or a shihtzu did, I would be more willing to reach out to the pit and not the small breed.

On that note, I DO think that all dogs should be kept away from daycare kids. Not because of the kind of dog, but for their safety from the children. I have an "American Pit Bull" and while I trust her completely with my child (3 in Dec) I don't trust the other children with her. By adopting her I have made a promise to protect her and that includes rough kids, scapegoats, stereo types and parents with bad ideas. All my DCPs love her but they can admire her from the gate in the kitchen.

And again to touch on the breed discrimination and the post saying which you fear most, my daughter has been bitten by a lhasa-poo because her foot "got to close to him". So yea, I prefer large breeds and my dog is an ambassador to her breed. My other dog, a Shar-pei lab mix (who looks 10x more "threatening" and is 20 lbs heavier) is a complete baby and used to be allowed with the daycare kids. He preferred to lay on the rug where the kids were playing. They would pull on him, dress him up and NO JOKE build tiny block towers on his head. Once I got our newest and most precious girl, because of the breed discrimination and the uncertainty of her history, I started separating the dogs. Best decision ever. Not because I am concerned she will "attack" but because I KNOW I am protection my DOGS. Both my dogs don't just "tolerate" kids. They LOVE them. They want to be with them (Ireland, my pit, whines all day long when she's in the kitchen). They are patient and sweet and kind and take a lot more abuse from the kids than I would. And they do it with love.

My Sharpei lab mix is dog aggressive. A lot of pit bulls are as well. But that does NOT mean they are PEOPLE aggressive. Its not even close to the same thing. 'Pit bulls' are the Nanny's of history. Ask ANY dog trainer. ANY Vet. Just because a breed has a tendency (pit bulls show this around 18 months+) to be dog aggressive, that does not mean they will ever show aggression towards a person.

Ignorance about this breed, fueled by media, is profound. And its clear here in this thread. Honestly, its like saying "I don't want to take a black family because of...." or "I don't want to take a middle eastern family because of..." Its discrimination.

I agree with BlackCat, I think OP was trying to start something. The real issue here is fostering strange dogs and having them around the kids. I do NOT think that is a good idea and it should be addressed. If this is something the provider was doing before enrollment, than that's their fault for enrolling in something that makes them uncomfortable. I would advise the provider to better protect her DOGS from people that may have concerns about her choices to help dogs get a second chance.
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caregiver 04:27 PM 11-05-2013
I know that this is a totally different subject from the one started about the pit bulls, but I just have to voice my opinion and it is just my opinion and my thinking and I'm not trying to say anyone is right or wrong on this subject,so here goes.....There are many people, with children and without children that have dogs as pets,dogs are the number one pet. I think it all depends on what type of dog you have, how you train it,how you teach children to treat dogs,and if a child is born into a family that already has a dog,they should be used to having a dog around and not be afraid of it . They should be taught by their parents on how to be around a dog and how to treat it. I don't agree that just because someone does daycare, that they can not have a dog as a pet. It all is how you, as a provider teach the kids about your dog,how to pet it and behave around it. I have a cat, a very friendly cat and I teach the kids how to pet her nicely,how to not bother her when she is eating or sleeping,how to watch out to not step on her paws etc. She is very good with the kids, they love her,give her hugs and kisses and I believe that having a pet around is a very good learning experience for the kids. Parents know when they come for the interview that I have a cat, if they don't like that, then they can go elsewhere. But I will let no one tell me just because I do daycare that I am not allowed to have a pet. I would not do daycare if that was what I had to do. This is reaching far here, but it is like someone telling me that I would have to make a choice if I wanted to have my own children or have a pet because someone says that children should not be around animals,now that is stupid I know, but that is what some of you are saying. YOU have to TEACH children how to act around them, show them how to treat them, and not make them afraid of them by not letting them around a animal,it is your responsibility if you have a dog to teach the child. I think it is so unfair to put a dog in a room or outside while kids are in your care, not fair to the animal! If you have to do that, then DON"T have a dog. But to say that kids should not be allowed to be around a dog is not fair. I repeat this, it is how well you know your dog and how you teach the kids in your daycare to treat your dog and YOU have to take the time to do this. Take their little hands and show them how to pet nice and sit with them while they are by your dog and show the dog and the child that this is the way we treat them. Dogs and cats sniff people at first to see what they are like and to get to know their scent, so let the dog sniff the child and tell the child that its ok and that is the way the dog gets to know them. It takes a little work, but don't let children miss out on learning about animals and to be around them and not to be afraid of them. It is a great learning experience for them and should not be denied. I said my piece,just had to get it out, but think it is a little unfair to say that just because a person does daycare that they should not have a pet or let kids learn and experience being around one. I guess you can tell I am a animal lover,but I would never be without one as they bring so much happiness and joy in our lives.
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Willow 04:29 PM 11-05-2013
I'll add just for contrast:

http://pointing-lab.com/gmpr-mpr-ipr...cattail-corky/

We got one of our Labs from this breeder and he is a direct decendent of Corky. Labs can look like marshmallows (and most do) or they can look like they're on steroids ready to rip your arm off, like Corky. Seriously, do a mind crop of his ears and he looks no different than the white dog you posted. When we picked up our pup there was a started dog there named Trojan who was even more astonishingly.....just........massively muscled out HUGE.

Just like most Labs don't look like Corky or Trojan even in their prime, most "pit bull types" don't look as beefy as the pictures you shared. 90% of that muscling is diet and conditioning. No dog is born looking like that as far as either breed is concerned and most never do even if the owner does their best to make it happen. Both are extremist examples.
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Brooksie 04:31 PM 11-05-2013
Originally Posted by Willow:
That logic is flawed when it comes to dogs though, which is evidenced by the fact that more people are bitten by Labrador Retrievers than any other breed. Everyone just assumes because they look cute and cuddly they must be safe.

It's also why people are constantly abandoning their animals when they pick out one out based soley on the way it looks as opposed to what it can and cannot contribute to their family.

The Slow Loris is one of the cutest harmless looking critters on the planet imho, but just touching it can kill you.

You cannot judge an animal by looks alone, especially when it comes to domesticated pets that have been bred for centuries to perform very specific tasks or live in very specific ways.


If you don't like "pit bull type" dogs that's fine. But there's no reason to further villianize them with already disproven myths about who and what they inherently are. Someone else offered a great link to how they placed in temperament tests. They truly are safer than many other common/harmless looking breeds and that's been proven time and time again.


eta - all we have up here for snakes are harmless. If I was out of my element somewhere else I wouldn't sit and contemplate the size or color of the jaw of a snake I ran across, I'd simply retreat (quickly and with terror) and assume all had deadly potential.....same would go for any animal I was completely unfamiliar with lol
I also have a pet snake. Kept away from the kids and padlocked. While it is a boa constrictor, to an uneducated eye, his jaws may look big and venomous. Either way he's almost 5 ft long and can be dangerous. Its because he's a snake and has the ability to bite and constrict. Its no different than a dog. Any dog can bite and cause damage. And the majority of those instances are provoked by human error. Its about taking the necessary precautions to keep everyone safe. NO MATTER the breed/species.
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Leanna 04:33 PM 11-05-2013
Am I the only one who had to look up what a "slow loris" is?

Reply
craftymissbeth 04:35 PM 11-05-2013
Originally Posted by Leanna:
Am I the only one who had to look up what a "slow loris" is?
I knew what it was but didn't know they are poisonous
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Brooksie 04:42 PM 11-05-2013
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My Labrador Mix (lighter colored) versus my "Pit". You tell me who looks more threatening.... You tell me that my dogs are "More likely to do harm". Yea, they're nasty people haters and can't wait to tear our faces off.
Attached:
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Michael 04:44 PM 11-05-2013
Originally Posted by Willow:
I'll add just for contrast:

http://pointing-lab.com/gmpr-mpr-ipr...cattail-corky/

We got one of our Labs from this breeder and he is a direct decendent of Corky. Labs can look like marshmallows (and most do) or they can look like they're on steroids ready to rip your arm off.

Just like most Labs don't look like Corky even in their prime, most "pit bull types" don't look as beefy as the pictures you shared. 90% of that muscling is diet and conditioning. No dog is born looking like that as far as either breed is concerned.
Ok, I'll take this topic away from Pit Bulls and dogs.

All animals can attack, bite, react, protect. Some have a high percentage of destruction when they do. I would rather be scratched by a cat than a lion, a non venomous snake then a poisonous one. There are more Bengal tigers in the US then India. I think somewhere around 12,000 tigers in the US are pets. The question is, what's safe? You want to keep a lion in your backyard, I have no problem as long as you keep it caged and secure and don't take it for walks in the neighborhood.

Don't get me wrong. I would love to have a large dog that could attack on command if I was in the military or police force, where I would also have a side arm just in case.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/tiger-mom-t...ry?id=12864777
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Willow 04:47 PM 11-05-2013
Originally Posted by Leanna:
Am I the only one who had to look up what a "slow loris" is?
Aaaaaand? You thought what?

Ridiculously adorable and harmless looking as an animal could seem at first glance no?
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Willow 04:50 PM 11-05-2013
Originally Posted by Michael:
Ok, I'll take this topic away from Pit Bulls and dogs.

All animals can attack, bite, react, protect. Some have a high percentage of destruction when they do. I would rather be scratched by a cat than a lion, a non venomous snake then a poisonous one. There are more Bengal tigers in the US then India. I think somewhere around 12,000 tigers in the US are pets. The question is, what's safe? You want to keep a lion in your backyard, I have no problem as long as you keep it caged and secure and don't take it for walks in the neighborhood.

Don't get me wrong. I would love to have a large dog that could attack on command if I was in the military or police force, where I would also have a side arm just in case.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/tiger-mom-t...ry?id=12864777

I will not disagree with any of your above!

I saw a goose trapped in a chicken wire fence once and stopped to try to free it. The owner came out and thanked me, then offered to show me the panther he just acquired. It was about 20 yards away, in the barn. Said it was friendly as a kitten and he was proud as a peacock to show it off.

I don't think I ever fled so fast from a place in all my life.

Nor was I ever as shocked to learn in my state keeping such an animal was legal.


No thanks


I will add, as big of a dog fan as I am, there are plenty of breeds I'm not of a fan of (or outright loathe) also for reasons people would deem unreasonable. At the end of the day all that matters is what we feel comfortable having our families around.
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Leanna 04:54 PM 11-05-2013
Originally Posted by Willow:
Aaaaaand? You thought what?

Ridiculously adorable and harmless looking as an animal could seem at first glance no?
Actually I thought they look like the cute little gooey alien from Flight of the Navigator!
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Brooksie 04:55 PM 11-05-2013
I can 100% say, that I'm more likely to be bitten by one of my DAYCARE CHILDREN tomorrow, than I am to be bitten by one of my dogs. But that's because I know the temperament of my dogs, I know the training we do with them,I know how well socialized they are, and I know their limits. The kids however.... they're not of my doing. And yea, I get bitten by kids. Not my dogs.

Keep your pets away from your kids, for your PETS safety. Especially when trying to re-home them. Any animal, or person, can act aggressively when put under too much stress. Children are stressful. Protect everyone by keeping them separate.
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Leanna 04:59 PM 11-05-2013
Originally Posted by Brooksie:
Attachment 2094
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My Labrador Mix (lighter colored) versus my "Pit". You tell me who looks more threatening.... You tell me that my dogs are "More likely to do harm". Yea, they're nasty people haters and can't wait to tear our faces off.
Lol...these pics remind me so much of my sisters dogs. She has two "pitbulls" and is constantly posting pics on Facebook of her two little boys sleeping with her dogs, kissing them, etc. Her male dog hides during thunderstorms!
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Brooksie 05:05 PM 11-05-2013
Originally Posted by Leanna:
Lol...these pics remind me so much of my sisters dogs. She has two "pitbulls" and is constantly posting pics on Facebook of her two little boys sleeping with her dogs, kissing them, etc. Her male dog hides during thunderstorms!
My dogs do too. They are bigger babies than my baby! My "pit" is frequently held like a baby and wags her tail and eats it up the entire time. Although I don't think my lab mix would appreciate that so much. Both of them snuggle with us on the couch, take and give many face kisses and want absolutely everything to do with dd. Even if she hits them. They take it because they love her and couldn't imagine doing ANYTHING that would hurt her. But... make a move to hurt my child, and you may see that "aggressive dog" thing that is assumed by the breed
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caregiver 06:03 PM 11-05-2013
Originally Posted by Brooksie:
I can 100% say, that I'm more likely to be bitten by one of my DAYCARE CHILDREN tomorrow, than I am to be bitten by one of my dogs. But that's because I know the temperament of my dogs, I know the training we do with them,I know how well socialized they are, and I know their limits. The kids however.... they're not of my doing. And yea, I get bitten by kids. Not my dogs.

Keep your pets away from your kids, for your PETS safety. Especially when trying to re-home them. Any animal, or person, can act aggressively when put under too much stress. Children are stressful. Protect everyone by keeping them separate.

I do not agree with your comment below:
Keep your pets away from your kids, for your PETS safety

YOU meaning YOU, HAVE TO TAKE THE TIME TO TEACH your kids HOW to act and behave around pets. If they are taught how to be kind to a pet, then your pets safety should be ok! Kids will not be stressful if they are taught how to be around a pet. If they are not exposed to a pet of any kind, they do not know how to act when they do come in contact with one and probably will be afraid of one as they have not been around a animal. I guess I don't understand why it is so difficult for people to not take the time with children TO teach them how to treat animals! It is our responsibility as parents and providers to teach them these things. If you have a animal that is big or not good with kids if you do daycare, then do not have the animal, but to say that children should not be around animals period is unfair. For your animals safety, teach your children how to be around the animal the right way and don't let them pull a tail or hit the animal or mistreat it, they need to know what not to do and what they can do with a pet and that is what you have to teach them and show them how to be nice to your pet. I sit with my kids and we pet my cat together and they know how to be nice with her and that is how we treat her. How are kids supposed to learn about animals if we don't expose them,show and explain to them how to be around a animal. I am just saying that if you don't want kids around a animal, then do not have one, but to say that kids should not be around them at all is not fair. If you take the time to show your child how to behave around a animal then your animal should be safe as your child has been taught how to be around one. It is not a hard thing to do. TEACH and they will LEARN! Sorry for the rant, but I needed to stick up for having a pet and also having kids be around a pet. One other thing if you don't trust your dog with kids, and your doing daycare then you need to decide if you keep your dog or give it away as it is not fair to your dog or yourself.
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Brooksie 05:01 AM 11-06-2013
Originally Posted by care giver:
I do not agree with your comment below:
Keep your pets away from your kids, for your PETS safety

YOU meaning YOU, HAVE TO TAKE THE TIME TO TEACH your kids HOW to act and behave around pets. If they are taught how to be kind to a pet, then your pets safety should be ok! Kids will not be stressful if they are taught how to be around a pet. If they are not exposed to a pet of any kind, they do not know how to act when they do come in contact with one and probably will be afraid of one as they have not been around a animal. I guess I don't understand why it is so difficult for people to not take the time with children TO teach them how to treat animals! It is our responsibility as parents and providers to teach them these things. If you have a animal that is big or not good with kids if you do daycare, then do not have the animal, but to say that children should not be around animals period is unfair. For your animals safety, teach your children how to be around the animal the right way and don't let them pull a tail or hit the animal or mistreat it, they need to know what not to do and what they can do with a pet and that is what you have to teach them and show them how to be nice to your pet. I sit with my kids and we pet my cat together and they know how to be nice with her and that is how we treat her. How are kids supposed to learn about animals if we don't expose them,show and explain to them how to be around a animal. I am just saying that if you don't want kids around a animal, then do not have one, but to say that kids should not be around them at all is not fair. If you take the time to show your child how to behave around a animal then your animal should be safe as your child has been taught how to be around one. It is not a hard thing to do. TEACH and they will LEARN! Sorry for the rant, but I needed to stick up for having a pet and also having kids be around a pet. One other thing if you don't trust your dog with kids, and your doing daycare then you need to decide if you keep your dog or give it away as it is not fair to your dog or yourself.
You think its more fair to put your dog in a shelter than to keep it separated from day care kids? I'm sorry but my pit was pulled from a high kill shelter and was on a Euth list. There's no way in hell that I would ever do that to her. And that's the most ridiculous statement from a "dog lover" that I have ever heard.

When I had just one dog (he's older and very calm) I used to keep him out with the daycare kids. If you can closely supervise all the interactions with him and the kids than I think it can be reasonable to allow your dog out. I have never had a problem. I started separating my animals after I adopted our newest girl. She's young and high energy. We have 5 kids here and a good size space but not enough for a dog to be able to run around. With 2 dogs and 5 kids it would be not be reasonable to watch every interaction. And yes, daycare kids are stressful. Kids are loud, they do things in quick movements, they don't know how to manage a dogs stress level (which is different than our stress tolerance).

On top of that its your job to protect your dog. I had a DCD (not usual pick up) say that my dog growled at him shortly after we adopted her. I was right there watching his interaction. She did not growl. Her tail was wagging. He even reached down and pulled a ball out of her mouth and played fetch with her. Talking about what a good looking dog she was. But he still went back to DCM and told her that he thought my dog was vicious, probably because of her breed. That's a false accusation. YOU need to protect your dog from PEOPLE. Any dog can bite. Any animal can bite. It takes a bad day and a bad move and any thing can happen. Its not just about teaching kids to respect animals, which I agree is very important. Its about doing every thing you can to protect your animals.
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caregiver 05:33 AM 11-06-2013
Originally Posted by Brooksie:
You think its more fair to put your dog in a shelter than to keep it separated from day care kids? I'm sorry but my pit was pulled from a high kill shelter and was on a Euth list. There's no way in hell that I would ever do that to her. And that's the most ridiculous statement from a "dog lover" that I have ever heard.

When I had just one dog (he's older and very calm) I used to keep him out with the daycare kids. If you can closely supervise all the interactions with him and the kids than I think it can be reasonable to allow your dog out. I have never had a problem. I started separating my animals after I adopted our newest girl. She's young and high energy. We have 5 kids here and a good size space but not enough for a dog to be able to run around. With 2 dogs and 5 kids it would be not be reasonable to watch every interaction. And yes, daycare kids are stressful. Kids are loud, they do things in quick movements, they don't know how to manage a dogs stress level (which is different than our stress tolerance).

On top of that its your job to protect your dog. I had a DCD (not usual pick up) say that my dog growled at him shortly after we adopted her. I was right there watching his interaction. She did not growl. Her tail was wagging. He even reached down and pulled a ball out of her mouth and played fetch with her. Talking about what a good looking dog she was. But he still went back to DCM and told her that he thought my dog was vicious, probably because of her breed. That's a false accusation. YOU need to protect your dog from PEOPLE. Any dog can bite. Any animal can bite. It takes a bad day and a bad move and any thing can happen. Its not just about teaching kids to respect animals, which I agree is very important. Its about doing every thing you can to protect your animals.
Sorry, I did not mean to say give your dog away, I just meant that if you don't want kids around a dog, then just don't have one at all if your afraid of a pet getting hurt by a child. I guess what I am trying to say it that it doesn't hurt kids to be at least around a animal of any kind, just so that they know how to be and act around them and if you have kids that you don't think will be nice around a pet, then of course you should protect your pet. All I meant with my posts is that there is no reason why kids and pets can't be together if you know your pet and trust the kids. So sorry, did not mean to sound like I was trying to tell you to get rid of your dog. Sorry , I tend to get carried away on subjects and my husband always tells me to get off "my soap box" so just was trying to make a point and got too carried away. Yes, always protect your pet, no argument there.
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Willow 06:03 AM 11-06-2013
Originally Posted by care giver:
Sorry, I did not mean to say give your dog away, I just meant that if you don't want kids around a dog, then just don't have one at all if your afraid of a pet getting hurt by a child. I guess what I am trying to say it that it doesn't hurt kids to be at least around a animal of any kind, just so that they know how to be and act around them and if you have kids that you don't think will be nice around a pet, then of course you should protect your pet. All I meant with my posts is that there is no reason why kids and pets can't be together if you know your pet and trust the kids. So sorry, did not mean to sound like I was trying to tell you to get rid of your dog. Sorry , I tend to get carried away on subjects and my husband always tells me to get off "my soap box" so just was trying to make a point and got too carried away. Yes, always protect your pet, no argument there.
There's a huge reason to keep your pets away from other people's children......it's called liability.

It's not in my job description to use my family members as guinea pigs to try to teach other people's children how to interact properly with animals. Many children don't have the capacity at the ages I take and I'm not about to put my fur kids (because they can be ordered put to sleep at even a false accusation) or my house (hello lawsuits that'll drain every penny you ever owned) on the line for a lesson other children's own parents should take responsibility for.
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Brooksie 06:19 AM 11-06-2013
Originally Posted by Willow:
There's a huge reason to keep your pets away from other people's children......it's called liability.

It's not in my job description to use my family members as guinea pigs to try to teach other people's children how to interact properly with animals. Many children don't have the capacity at the ages I take and I'm not about to put my fur kids (because they can be ordered put to sleep at even a false accusation) or my house (hello lawsuits that'll drain every penny you ever owned) on the line for a lesson other children's own parents should take responsibility for.

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Unregistered 07:11 AM 11-06-2013
'Personally, I think OP started this thread so this conversation would get heated....'


Really? Yes, I was looking to be entertained by a fight by a bunch of strangers, I am a little too busy for that.

No I posted it because I wanted to hear if my feelings on it were the norm and to have a more educated opinion to offer to my friend. The conversation got heated because people that love their animals and feel passionate about them were expressing their opinions, which is fine. I personally have only had one interaction with a dog of this variety, and it was not a good one. I did not want to base my advice on that, as I know many people think they are wonderful pets.

That all being said, I don't think people should keep their pets out with daycare kids. Both kids and pets are unpredictable and I don't think daycare providers should risk losing their pets because of an inappropriate action by a child. Nor should they risk a child getting hurt by an inappropriate reaction by an animal.

As far as the slow loris, lol, I would not approach it based on its' appearance, I would do my homework first and find out about it as it is a wild animal.
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caregiver 07:15 AM 11-06-2013
Originally Posted by Willow:
There's a huge reason to keep your pets away from other people's children......it's called liability.

It's not in my job description to use my family members as guinea pigs to try to teach other people's children how to interact properly with animals. Many children don't have the capacity at the ages I take and I'm not about to put my fur kids (because they can be ordered put to sleep at even a false accusation) or my house (hello lawsuits that'll drain every penny you ever owned) on the line for a lesson other children's own parents should take responsibility for.
Question for you, do you have a pet and if you do, do you keep your pet up to date on all their shots and exams? I keep my cat up to date on all the required shots and have records and proof to show parents for just that reason, for liability and for having to have a pet put down. If she nips a child, which she never has, but if she did, parents know that she has had her shots and is healthy. They can not say put your pet down just because she nipped their child and if they take me to court over it, I HAVE the proof to say that she had her shots and I am doing what I am supposed to do, by law. But my biggy is about his whole post thing is How is a child supposed to learn how to be,behave, and treat a animal if they are not taught by someone, if not by the parent. Are we not as providers supposed to help the children learn things and isn't it something we should bring up to them while helping them learn about animals on how to treat a animal,and show them how if you have a pet that you can trust to be around your kids and if your right there with them to teach them how to act around a animal,to show them, it helps them learn. Even if that is the only time you allow the kids around the animal. I guess I have just seen a few kids become so afraid of a dog or cat just because they have not been around one and no one has ever talked to them or taught them about pets and how to act around one, so they do not know what to do when they do come in contact with one.

I know, we do as providers have a tough job, one that we really get no Thank you's for from some parents or society. We are limited in what we can and can not do as far as disciplining them and most of us are doing for the kids what their parents should be teaching them. We are caring for a human being,not just pushing papers in a office. I wish society would recognize daycare providers and acknowledge what a great job we do as with any other person out in the work force.
So it seems like unfortunately we do have to teach the kids things that maybe their parents don't want or have the time to teach them at home.
I guess the pet thing is just one area that I feel is important to tackle with kids so that they do know how react to one and not be afraid of one and not be kind to one. So don't feel I am saying anything bad about anyone who doesn't feel the same as I do, it is just my thinking on how I handle issues on how I handle my daycare. Everyone does things the way they think is right, so no judgment by me, just was expressing my own thoughts. Hope you all have a great day.
Sorry, did not want to start a fight here or anything, just feel strongly about the subject. I do just get carried away on things and seem to ramble on and on, so I will not say anything more on the subject, so I apologize,just take my posts as a person just rambling on just expressing her own thoughts. Nothing meant to make anyone feel I was starting anything.
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Blackcat31 07:25 AM 11-06-2013
Originally Posted by Unregistered:
'Personally, I think OP started this thread so this conversation would get heated....'


Really? Yes, I was looking to be entertained by a fight by a bunch of strangers, I am a little too busy for that.

No I posted it because I wanted to hear if my feelings on it were the norm and to have a more educated opinion to offer to my friend. The conversation got heated because people that love their animals and feel passionate about them were expressing their opinions, which is fine. I personally have only had one interaction with a dog of this variety, and it was not a good one. I did not want to base my advice on that, as I know many people think they are wonderful pets.

That all being said, I don't think people should keep their pets out with daycare kids. Both kids and pets are unpredictable and I don't think daycare providers should risk losing their pets because of an inappropriate action by a child. Nor should they risk a child getting hurt by an inappropriate reaction by an animal.

As far as the slow loris, lol, I would not approach it based on its' appearance, I would do my homework first and find out about it as it is a wild animal.
Yes, really.

NOT once did you say that in your post(s). (the bolded part)

You said "As providers, what are your thoughts?". Why not just say you want to know if YOUR personal feelings are the norm.

Also, the way your post reads you are making a point of stating that your friend is concerned but again you have still NOT answered the questions about your friends provider and whether she did or didn't notify parents before getting this dog and whether or not she (the provider) has always been in the dog fostering business.

As a matter of fact, you haven't mentioned your friend again in any of the other posts (that I remember) so that is where my doubt about your intentions comes in.

Also curious as to why this was all done anonymously? I definitely don't feel this is a topic that needs to be discussed in secret.

If you wanted to have a discussion about pit bulls or pets in daycare, then why not just say that???

Logging out to post something as unregistered gives me the impression that this wasn't just an innocent discussion topic that you wanted to about/discuss.
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Brooksie 07:28 AM 11-06-2013
Originally Posted by Unregistered:
'Personally, I think OP started this thread so this conversation would get heated....'


Really? Yes, I was looking to be entertained by a fight by a bunch of strangers, I am a little too busy for that.

No I posted it because I wanted to hear if my feelings on it were the norm and to have a more educated opinion to offer to my friend. The conversation got heated because people that love their animals and feel passionate about them were expressing their opinions, which is fine. I personally have only had one interaction with a dog of this variety, and it was not a good one. I did not want to base my advice on that, as I know many people think they are wonderful pets.

That all being said, I don't think people should keep their pets out with daycare kids. Both kids and pets are unpredictable and I don't think daycare providers should risk losing their pets because of an inappropriate action by a child. Nor should they risk a child getting hurt by an inappropriate reaction by an animal.

As far as the slow loris, lol, I would not approach it based on its' appearance, I would do my homework first and find out about it as it is a wild animal.
I agree. I don't think she should be concerned that a pitbull specifically is around her kid, but should be concerned that this provider is bringing dogs with unknown history around her kid. As I think the provider is doing a great thing by fostering these animals, if she truly cares about them and wants to give them a second chance she needs to keep them away from her daycare kids. There are too many unknowns and bad possibilities. One thing that wasn't mentioned and I'm curious, did your friend know that this provider was fostering dogs? Or is this a new thing? Did she notify the families ahead of time before making this change? I am honestly surprised she is allowed to foster and have the dogs out with the children. That seems like something a fostering program would not allow.
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Blackcat31 07:38 AM 11-06-2013
LOTS of other threads about dogs in daycare, big dogs, and pit bulls in daycare

https://www.daycare.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22884
https://www.daycare.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46687
https://www.daycare.com/forum/showthread.php?t=36074
https://www.daycare.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46835
https://www.daycare.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34818
https://www.daycare.com/forum/showthread.php?t=33291
https://www.daycare.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14253
https://www.daycare.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12431
https://www.daycare.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11156
https://www.daycare.com/forum/tags.php?tag=pit+bull
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daycare 07:39 AM 11-06-2013
I have not read all of the replies on this but I just thought that it was kind of a coincidence that this post was here as I was sitting down to read my new daycare liability insurance policy.

On it, it has a section titled "certain animal exclusion"

I read the list of dogs and the first one listed on there is PIT BULL or any kind of Bull Terrier.

The list goes on excluding, german shepards, Chows, doberman, bull mastiffs and etc.

The funny part is that of all the dogs listed on the exclusion page I have been bitten by every kind of dog mentioned BUT a pit bull.
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Willow 07:54 AM 11-06-2013
Originally Posted by care giver:
Question for you, do you have a pet and if you do, do you keep your pet up to date on all their shots and exams? I keep my cat up to date on all the required shots and have records and proof to show parents for just that reason, for liability and for having to have a pet put down. If she nips a child, which she never has, but if she did, parents know that she has had her shots and is healthy. They can not say put your pet down just because she nipped their child and if they take me to court over it, I HAVE the proof to say that she had her shots and I am doing what I am supposed to do, by law. But my biggy is about his whole post thing is How is a child supposed to learn how to be,behave, and treat a animal if they are not taught by someone, if not by the parent. Are we not as providers supposed to help the children learn things and isn't it something we should bring up to them while helping them learn about animals on how to treat a animal,and show them how if you have a pet that you can trust to be around your kids and if your right there with them to teach them how to act around a animal,to show them, it helps them learn. Even if that is the only time you allow the kids around the animal. I guess I have just seen a few kids become so afraid of a dog or cat just because they have not been around one and no one has ever talked to them or taught them about pets and how to act around one, so they do not know what to do when they do come in contact with one.

I know, we do as providers have a tough job, one that we really get no Thank you's for from some parents or society. We are limited in what we can and can not do as far as disciplining them and most of us are doing for the kids what their parents should be teaching them. We are caring for a human being,not just pushing papers in a office. I wish society would recognize daycare providers and acknowledge what a great job we do as with any other person out in the work force.
So it seems like unfortunately we do have to teach the kids things that maybe their parents don't want or have the time to teach them at home.
I guess the pet thing is just one area that I feel is important to tackle with kids so that they do know how react to one and not be afraid of one and not be kind to one. So don't feel I am saying anything bad about anyone who doesn't feel the same as I do, it is just my thinking on how I handle issues on how I handle my daycare. Everyone does things the way they think is right, so no judgment by me, just was expressing my own thoughts. Hope you all have a great day.
Sorry, did not want to start a fight here or anything, just feel strongly about the subject. I do just get carried away on things and seem to ramble on and on, so I will not say anything more on the subject, so I apologize,just take my posts as a person just rambling on just expressing her own thoughts. Nothing meant to make anyone feel I was starting anything.

You can feel strongly about something, that doesn't mean you're correct.

I strongly suggest you consult your cats veterinarian, a lawyer and/or even just google up on the internet.

If a new to walking toddler accidentally falls on your cat, and your cat out of reflex or defense of itself scratches or bites - you can be sued and your cat can be ordered put down.

If a child lies and simply SAYS your cat is vicious - your cat can be ordered put down and you are then at risk of losing your license.

If your cat actually does scratch or bite, any child or any reason - your cat can be ordered put down, you can lose your license and you can be sued for everything you own.

The cat having it's shots isn't worth a hill of beans in ANY of those situations, I'm not sure why you believe otherwise.


To repeat:
IF ANYONE SO MUCH AS ALLEDGES YOUR CAT DID ANYTHING - YOU CAN BE SUED AND THE CAT CAN BE ORDERED PUT TO SLEEP.

It's happened before all over this country and it will happen again because of people who think it's reasonable to mix animals and daycares.


You can certainly have your own opinions, but that doesn't mean experts or the law will agree with you. In this case, neither do. If you continue to allow access just be warned, you are putting both the cat and the children in your care at risk. If you're fine with that, that's your business as long as you are aware.



(current owner of four dogs, three cats, a chinchilla, a rabbit and a horse (off site) who are all members of this family and entitled to protection from my personal business ventures. It's not their job or mine to teach other peoples children about proper interaction any more than it's my job to teach firearm safety, swimming lessons, drivers, religious or sex education just because I have a safe full, water, vehicles, bibles and people of both sexes at my house).
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Willow 08:06 AM 11-06-2013
Originally Posted by daycare:
I have not read all of the replies on this but I just thought that it was kind of a coincidence that this post was here as I was sitting down to read my new daycare liability insurance policy.

On it, it has a section titled "certain animal exclusion"

I read the list of dogs and the first one listed on there is PIT BULL or any kind of Bull Terrier.

The list goes on excluding, german shepards, Chows, doberman, bull mastiffs and etc.

The funny part is that of all the dogs listed on the exclusion page I have been bitten by every kind of dog mentioned BUT a pit bull.

Your experiences with breeds not on that list are astonishingly common.

Not saying it was what happened in your encounters as I remember discussing those before, but in general people usually equate appearances to safety. If Fido looks like the perky dog next door type instead of the macho Cujo, he must be safe. It gets more people into trouble than most would ever assume.
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Sugar Magnolia 08:07 AM 11-06-2013
I have a teeny tiny chihuahua that is 8 inches tall and weighs 10 pounds. He is mean as heck. He came to our center once for a brief visit after grooming with my adult son. He was a little Jerk and never coming back. Great pet, loves family, despises strangers.

Pit bull? Never ever ever in million trillion gazillion years. Want one as a pet? Super, but as a parent, I would not even consider enrolling my child if there was a pit bull there.

ASKING FOR TROUBLE!
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Unregistered 09:01 AM 11-06-2013
I posted as unregistered, because if the provider is on this forum, I don't want her to think I am attacking her.

People that sign up know that she has her own dog, but the fostering is new. The one specific parent that I am talking about was not notified she would be fostering until she saw the dog out with the kids.

Not sure what else to say, but I need to get back to my daycare kids.
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Willow 09:05 AM 11-06-2013
Originally Posted by Unregistered:
I posted as unregistered, because if the provider is on this forum, I don't want her to think I am attacking her.

People that sign up know that she has her own dog, but the fostering is new. The one specific parent that I am talking about was not notified she would be fostering until she saw the dog out with the kids.

Not sure what else to say, but I need to get back to my daycare kids.
Yeah.....that is unbelievably not ok........
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Blackcat31 09:06 AM 11-06-2013
Originally Posted by Willow:
Your experiences with breeds not on that list are astonishingly common.

Not saying it was what happened in your encounters as I remember discussing those before, but in general people usually equate appearances to safety. If Fido looks like the perky dog next door type instead of the macho Cujo, he must be safe. It gets more people into trouble than most would ever assume.
Hey! Don't bring my dog into this

Stephen King said he SPECIFICALLY choose to use a Saint Bernard to play the role of Cujo BECUASE their normal temperament and demeanor are the EXACT opposite of the behavior of Cujo (a rabid dog).....unfortunately now the breed carries that stereotype.

BUUUUUT, because of his large size (he is 8 months in the photo) I would never ever have him be around a small child.

Heck, he even knocks grown men to the ground just by wagging his tail.... He currently weighs 215lbs but thinks he is a lap dog.

He might also be the most docile dog ever, but his teeth ARE large and IF, he ever did decide to bite, nip or grasp onto someone with those teeth, I can only imagine how damaging it could be.
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Brooksie 09:09 AM 11-06-2013
Originally Posted by Unregistered:
I posted as unregistered, because if the provider is on this forum, I don't want her to think I am attacking her.

People that sign up know that she has her own dog, but the fostering is new. The one specific parent that I am talking about was not notified she would be fostering until she saw the dog out with the kids.

Not sure what else to say, but I need to get back to my daycare kids.
I agree with Willow. That is not ok. She needed to be notified of the change and if she is uncomfortable she may need to find other care. I would also talk to the organization she is fostering through because she may be breaking a rule by having the dogs out around the daycare kids.
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Leigh 09:10 AM 11-06-2013
Originally Posted by daycare:
I have not read all of the replies on this but I just thought that it was kind of a coincidence that this post was here as I was sitting down to read my new daycare liability insurance policy.

On it, it has a section titled "certain animal exclusion"

I read the list of dogs and the first one listed on there is PIT BULL or any kind of Bull Terrier.

The list goes on excluding, german shepards, Chows, doberman, bull mastiffs and etc.

The funny part is that of all the dogs listed on the exclusion page I have been bitten by every kind of dog mentioned BUT a pit bull.

Funny that ANY bull terrier would be listed. I could be wrong, but I have NEVER met a Bull Terrier or Miniature Bull Terrier that was anything other than pleasant, happy, friendly. I have never before heard the purebred Bull Terrier or Miniature Bull Terrier lumped in with the generic "pit-bull" in any conversation. Maybe I have just missed it, but I have also never heard of any attack by a purebred Bull Terrier or Mini Bull Terrier.

Does anyone have any knowledge of these dogs being included in "dangerous" lists? Has anyone here heard of one of these dogs frequently attacking humans? http://www.akc.org/breeds/bull_terrier/index.cfm
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Brooksie 09:11 AM 11-06-2013
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
Hey! Don't bring my dog into this

Stephen King said he SPECIFICALLY choose to use a Saint Bernard to play the role of Cujo BECUASE their normal temperament and demeanor are the EXACT opposite of the behavior of Cujo (a rabid dog).....unfortunately now the breed carries that stereotype.

BUUUUUT, because of his large size (he is 8 months in the photo) I would never ever have him be around a small child.

Heck, he even knocks grown men to the ground just by wagging his tail.... He currently weighs 215lbs but thinks he is a lap dog.

He might also be the most docile dog ever, but his teeth ARE large and IF, he ever did decide to bite, nip or grasp onto someone with those teeth, I can only imagine how damaging it could be.
Oh my gosh. How handsome!!! My mom and her boy friend have a St Bernard. She's massive and only just turned 1 year. She also thinks she's a lap dog.
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Blackcat31 09:16 AM 11-06-2013
Originally Posted by Leigh:

Does anyone have any knowledge of these dogs being included in "dangerous" lists? Has anyone here heard of one of these dogs frequently attacking humans? http://www.akc.org/breeds/bull_terrier/index.cfm
Isn't that Spuds McKenzie? The dog they used to advertise Budweiser beer in the late 80ies?


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Brooksie 09:24 AM 11-06-2013
Originally Posted by Leigh:
Funny that ANY bull terrier would be listed. I could be wrong, but I have NEVER met a Bull Terrier or Miniature Bull Terrier that was anything other than pleasant, happy, friendly. I have never before heard the purebred Bull Terrier or Miniature Bull Terrier lumped in with the generic "pit-bull" in any conversation. Maybe I have just missed it, but I have also never heard of any attack by a purebred Bull Terrier or Mini Bull Terrier.

Does anyone have any knowledge of these dogs being included in "dangerous" lists? Has anyone here heard of one of these dogs frequently attacking humans? http://www.akc.org/breeds/bull_terrier/index.cfm
Bull terriers do fall under the same category. I love bull terriers. Would love to have the opportunity to rescue one some day. One of my favorite books growing up was "Boodil, my dog" and was about a bull terrier that was scared of everything. So cute. Have wanted one ever since
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Heidi 09:35 AM 11-06-2013
I agree with the PP regarding Shih Tzu's.

I love my little Shih Tzu, but have come to realize in the last few months that he cannot be in the same room as my dck's. My infants and toddlers are simply unpredictable, and so is he. They've yanked his hair and his tail. He's growled at them and warned them. Actually, I took that as he's warned ME.

It's not ideal, because when they are gone, he is at my hip or dh's almost every second. He is very attached. He's gated away now, and he tends to bark or complain ALOT. Put him in a kennel, he'll go ballistic and poop all over himself (we tried to kennel train him as a puppy). Put him in the garage, he'll poop all over that (and it's cold). Most days, it's a PITA. He's loose for a while, then kids come, then I gate him off, then he gets on my nerves (babies crying...dog barking...). Then he goes outside, then he scratches at the door endlessly, then I put him in the garage, then he comes back in at nap time, then it's the gate again until everyone's gone (or outside or the garage).

The dog is 6 1/2 years old, and I got him before I started daycare again. I'd probably not get another one once he's gone, or if I did, he'd be trained to be outside or kenneled from day one. In fact, it would be a criteria that the breeder already started that.

My sister owns 3 dogs and does daycare. They used to interact, but somewhere along the way, she started separating them as well. The dogs are around kids all the time; just not daycare kids.
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Brooksie 09:38 AM 11-06-2013
Originally Posted by Heidi:
I agree with the PP regarding Shih Tzu's.

I love my little Shih Tzu, but have come to realize in the last few months that he cannot be in the same room as my dck's. My infants and toddlers are simply unpredictable, and so is he. They've yanked his hair and his tail. He's growled at them and warned them. Actually, I took that as he's warned ME.

It's not ideal, because when they are gone, he is at my hip or dh's almost every second. He is very attached. He's gated away now, and he tends to bark or complain ALOT. Put him in a kennel, he'll go ballistic and poop all over himself (we tried to kennel train him as a puppy). Put him in the garage, he'll poop all over that (and it's cold). Most days, it's a PITA. He's loose for a while, then kids come, then I gate him off, then he gets on my nerves (babies crying...dog barking...). Then he goes outside, then he scratches at the door endlessly, then I put him in the garage, then he comes back in at nap time, then it's the gate again until everyone's gone (or outside or the garage).

The dog is 6 1/2 years old, and I got him before I started daycare again. I'd probably not get another one once he's gone, or if I did, he'd be trained to be outside or kenneled from day one. In fact, it would be a criteria that the breeder already started that.

My sister owns 3 dogs and does daycare. They used to interact, but somewhere along the way, she started separating them as well. The dogs are around kids all the time; just not daycare kids.
Exactly. And I agree, your dog was warning you. Good for you for thinking of his best interest, even if the change has been a PITA for you. Good luck!
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Willow 09:42 AM 11-06-2013
Originally Posted by Leigh:
Funny that ANY bull terrier would be listed. I could be wrong, but I have NEVER met a Bull Terrier or Miniature Bull Terrier that was anything other than pleasant, happy, friendly. I have never before heard the purebred Bull Terrier or Miniature Bull Terrier lumped in with the generic "pit-bull" in any conversation. Maybe I have just missed it, but I have also never heard of any attack by a purebred Bull Terrier or Mini Bull Terrier.

Does anyone have any knowledge of these dogs being included in "dangerous" lists? Has anyone here heard of one of these dogs frequently attacking humans? http://www.akc.org/breeds/bull_terrier/index.cfm

I have heard of Pugs and Frenchies being listed to cover all basis in regards to breed specific legislation.

Someone with a "pit bull" may claim it's a Bull Terrier if confronted by their insurance carrier, HOA, city councel, neighbors etc. Since most people don't have a clue about breed based on looks alone, and looks alone can vary even within certain lines, lumping all that even so much has the potential to look "pit bul-ish" eliminates any grey area.


Not fair, or right, but it sure is happening all across the country.
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Leigh 09:45 AM 11-06-2013
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
Isn't that Spuds McKenzie? The dog they used to advertise Budweiser beer in the late 80ies?

Yes. I have never thought of these dogs as "pit bulls". When I think pit bull, I think of those backyard bred mutts where no two dogs look the same.
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daycare 10:23 AM 11-06-2013
Originally Posted by Leigh:
Funny that ANY bull terrier would be listed. I could be wrong, but I have NEVER met a Bull Terrier or Miniature Bull Terrier that was anything other than pleasant, happy, friendly. I have never before heard the purebred Bull Terrier or Miniature Bull Terrier lumped in with the generic "pit-bull" in any conversation. Maybe I have just missed it, but I have also never heard of any attack by a purebred Bull Terrier or Mini Bull Terrier.

Does anyone have any knowledge of these dogs being included in "dangerous" lists? Has anyone here heard of one of these dogs frequently attacking humans? http://www.akc.org/breeds/bull_terrier/index.cfm
this list was given to me by my daycare insurance company. so it is only used if you use this insurance company
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Willow 10:31 AM 11-06-2013
BC - are you pulling yer hair out trying to steer this thread back on it's course to nowhere yet??!
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Brooksie 10:32 AM 11-06-2013
Originally Posted by Willow:
BC - are you pulling yer hair out trying to steer this thread back on it's course to nowhere yet??!

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Tags:pets in daycare, pit bull
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