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View Poll Results: Should We Now Open The Economy Again?
Now - For Each State To Decide 11 26.83%
Later - After May 1st 22 53.66%
Later - After All Americans Have Been Tested 7 17.07%
Later - After a Vaccine is Available 1 2.44%
Voters: 41. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1  
Old 04-15-2020, 06:34 PM
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Default POLL - Should We Start To Open Our Economy Again?

I’ve been reading this previous forum thread today as a diary in how we’ve been dealing with this virus/crisis from the last month. It really shows how much we’ve had to change our livelihoods to adapt to it. Those changes seem for me to be globally immense. What do you all think? Is it time to start getting back to normalcy and fight this virus head on?

Last edited by Michael; 04-16-2020 at 03:47 AM.
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  #2  
Old 04-15-2020, 07:09 PM
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The past few weeks have been like a roller coaster to me. In the beginning, I wasn't worried and just rolled with it.

However, that changed when my first-cousin had symptoms and then tested positive for the virus but it was in the beginning and took 10 days to get his results back therefore, his family had to quarantine another 14 days. He has since recovered with his main symptom being a temperature and cough over a week.

Then I was OK again as he returned to work. There have only been 15 cases in my county but to have someone close to you with it is a little scary.

I then closed for two weeks after the first stay-at-home order which will end this week. When I open back up Monday, the state (which sends daily updates) has advised us to have sign in/out setup outside where only the children enter.??

I have been contacted by the national guard to see if I would take more kids from essential workers as the licensing rules have loosened. I said "NO".

The state has stepped up and multiple grants are coming to child care providers' as they have pledged to take care of us financially and with supplies.

In the beginning, I cleaned closets, watched sports re-runs, and enjoyed the simplicity of things. Now, I'm ready to go back to work as I am a better person when I run off of a routine/schedule. I have struggled to know what day it was the last few days.

So, after all that rambling all over the place, I feel it should be up to the states when to open, but I feel if they wait till May 1 to gradually do that, we will realize what a positive impact joining together staying home (for the most part) has been for our country.

And let me not forget that I have thoroughly enjoyed following Trump during all of this...from all the serious, hysterical, truthful, crazy, sarcasm, etc. press conferences. For what it's worth, I have a new appreciation for him from Covid 19. Don't want to turn this thread into a political rally! Just my opinions.
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Old 04-16-2020, 03:54 AM
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I won't even get into a Trump discussion lol BUT as much as I have seen countries working together on this, I still see so much blame, so many lies, so much 'this will work' without really knowing, and pointing fingers at one another. Let's take the greed and control and 'authority' power away from everybody and truly work as one huge giant team on this. Yes, mistakes were clearly made. Don't we all have situations in our lives where we look back and think about the shouldas and couldas? It's definitely time to move forward, stop thinking about making money off this sickness, add more support for our hard workers that are on the front lines, support our businesses in any way we can. People need help now, financially, physically, and mentally, more than this current generation ever has(not counting the WW11 era).
I don't care who the president is; this is an unprecedented time for all of us. I hate seeing the division between federal and state people, between the countries(let's LEARN from each other!!); it leaves so much confusion and anger. Hearing the lies, watching the blame game and being confused leads to people who don't believe this is as bad as it is, therefore many still don't follow rules.
I'm not sure reopening the economy any time soon is a great idea but people are drowning in debt which leads to its own host of issues which includes(but definitely not limited to) violence and abuse, unemployment, over-stretching financial limits of resources and of most everybody, possibly ruining retirement for many, taking our focus away from many other dire issues worldwide, etc., etc. Seeing China's increased positive numbers again isn't reassuring. I know health officials are working tirelessly to create vaccines and treatment for this. We need to have faith and hope those things will be found soon.

It's idealistic(IMO) to think we need to get back to normalcy, especially this soon. As soon as we reopen everything, positive cases will again abound(even more so than right now ), overwhelming an already overwhelmed health care system, exhausting the medical field, killing even more of our moms, dads, brothers, sisters, etc. As much as *I* would love to see life return to normalcy(which it never will, again IMO), if it claims one of my children, my dh, or my elderly sister and her dh, my elderly friends, it wouldn't be worth it. For Annalee this became personal and I'm sure it did for other members on this site. If it came that close to home for me, I'd do whatever it took to keep everyone else healthy.
I also think(sorry I'm so long-winded this a.m. lol)that even if everybody returned to life as it was before, the fear we all feel will still be there for years to come.
In the poll I chose May 1st. But after thinking about it, there is no real good answer to this and giving it a mere 2 more weeks won't do enough. You cannot put a date on it. And to wait for a vaccine could takes months or more and I'm not sure we can take that lengthy time period to keep this country going.
So many unknowns to this.
Just a couple more added thoughts:
I wish I believed in herd immunity. Maybe Sweden is doing it right? Or maybe it'll push their dying numbers up and over and become another Italy.
I also wish there was some way to get all the destroyed food/milk out to people who need it. People are dying from starvation yet people are throwing this all away. With all the intelligent minds in this country, you'd think there'd be an answer to figure out a solution.
It'll be interesting to read other thoughts about all of this.
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  #4  
Old 04-16-2020, 04:03 AM
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I voted Now- let states decide.

We are dealing with two competing real issues: 1) this is a serious health issue & 2) shutting down our economy may actually do more damage than the virus long term. Best bet is let states figure out the best course of action for their areas.
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  #5  
Old 04-16-2020, 04:41 AM
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Michael,
One of the things I can't get past is what are we to do with the patients who need direct in hospital care? We currently can't manage them. We don't have enough beds, vents, PPE, and well medical personnel. Some states are offering ten grand a week for RN's to come and work seven twelve hour shifts for three weeks. Before the pandemic, only nurse's in compact states (about half of the states) could cross borders and work off of their licence in another state. Now a nurse can go to any state and work. There's not enough nurses even with combat pay.

If we are going to open back up, a few weeks later we will not be able to care for the folks with severe reactions to the virus. We have to just have a base understanding across the country, that if you get it you can't have medical care in hospital. No life saving measures period regardless of age.

Then we can free up the surviving medical professionals to care for non Covid patients and get back to regular medical care, (including elective surgeries that will help the hospitals recover financially) once the hospitals and care facilities can restock PPE.

If we are to let it run it's course without intervention, other than what can cheaply and voluntarily be done, then we have to accept that we can't treat those who are gravely ill. It's too expensive and puts too many people in the medical chain at risk.

I don't know. This is just a nightmare.
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  #6  
Old 04-16-2020, 04:46 AM
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It is a double-edged sword. Embrace harsh triage or accept extended financial hardship.
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  #7  
Old 04-16-2020, 05:24 AM
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I think its time to open certain things. Salons can close waiting areas and do appointment only. And most places can limit capacity. If the capacity was 100, change it to 25. Do all online tickets so people dont congregate and once they are all sold out for the day you will know to try again another day. Still do social distancing. Wear a mask.


Another good poll would be: Whose actually going to get this vaccine as soon as it drops?....because its being fast tracked, im skeptical on how safe it will be.
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Old 04-16-2020, 06:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MomBoss View Post
I think its time to open certain things. Salons can close waiting areas and do appointment only. And most places can limit capacity. If the capacity was 100, change it to 25. Do all online tickets so people dont congregate and once they are all sold out for the day you will know to try again another day. Still do social distancing. Wear a mask.


Another good poll would be: Whose actually going to get this vaccine as soon as it drops?....because its being fast tracked, im skeptical on how safe it will be.
I wonít get the vaccine
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Old 04-16-2020, 06:59 AM
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I wonít get the vaccine
I'm curious as to why?
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Old 04-16-2020, 07:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MomBoss View Post
I think its time to open certain things. Salons can close waiting areas and do appointment only. And most places can limit capacity. If the capacity was 100, change it to 25. Do all online tickets so people dont congregate and once they are all sold out for the day you will know to try again another day. Still do social distancing. Wear a mask.


Another good poll would be: Whose actually going to get this vaccine as soon as it drops?....because its being fast tracked, im skeptical on how safe it will be.
I am more interested in the antibody test to find out if I/others have had it.
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  #11  
Old 04-16-2020, 08:00 AM
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I am more interested in the antibody test to find out if I/others have had it.
I like this idea, too!
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Old 04-16-2020, 08:02 AM
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Originally Posted by DaveA View Post
I voted Now- let states decide.

We are dealing with two competing real issues: 1) this is a serious health issue & 2) shutting down our economy may actually do more damage than the virus long term. Best bet is let states figure out the best course of action for their areas.
If you have good leadership, this works.. while our leadership is on target now, it wasn't in the beginning and as much as I "think he's a great guy", he let the ball down on too many areas/businesses in our state. He has manned-up now but it took some prodding. Again, just my opinions!
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Old 04-16-2020, 08:03 AM
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It is a double-edged sword. Embrace harsh triage or accept extended financial hardship.
Yep; there will continue to be positive cases of covid 19 but hopefully, it will be under control as states open up.
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Old 04-16-2020, 08:29 AM
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I'm curious as to why?
Iím afraid of flu shots. Iíve had two in the last 20 years and I got insanely sick the next day for a week with pneumonia.

I know as a nurse that it was most likely just coincidence but I went 20 years and didnít miss a day of work. In the last 7 years I have only had one illness after Xmas in Vegas other than after a flu shot in 2017. I so rarely get sick that I worry that it isnít coincidence.

I will just take my chances. I will never get another flu shot.
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Old 04-16-2020, 08:44 AM
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I was reading a thread on Facebook where nurses/ doctors/ hospital workers were updating the status of their hospital.... Just about everyone, minus anyone in NY & NJ, said that their hospital is eerily empty, they have an abundance of ppe, staff are having a major cut in hours, travel nurses are being terminated, some haven't seen any COVID patients, makeshift satellite COVID units are being shut down because there isn't a need..... so im wondering what the heck is actually true??? I feel that all im hearing is conflicting information and have no idea who, or what, to believe.
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Old 04-16-2020, 10:07 AM
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I agree, this is a terrible nightmare

Quote:
Originally Posted by jenboo View Post
I was reading a thread on Facebook where nurses/ doctors/ hospital workers were updating the status of their hospital.... Just about everyone, minus anyone in NY & NJ, said that their hospital is eerily empty, they have an abundance of ppe, staff are having a major cut in hours, travel nurses are being terminated, some haven't seen any COVID patients, makeshift satellite COVID units are being shut down because there isn't a need..... so im wondering what the heck is actually true??? I feel that all im hearing is conflicting information and have no idea who, or what, to believe.
My (limited) understanding is that hospitals are supposed to be empty right now. There are no visitors (which make up a large number of people in hospitals) and no elective surgeries either. To my understanding, elective surgeries (at least in my state) account for 40 - 50% of the surgeries performed in hospitals - therefore 40 - 50% of hospital revenue. I read an article the other day that said nurses and doctors are having hours cut because of the lost revenue from those canceled elective surgeries. They don't want additional COVID patients because if you are a COVID patient in the hospital your outlook is grim. But at the same time, if a hospital is not functioning to its full capacity, it is bleeding money.

I too an interested in the antibody test for myself and family. I don't remember speaking about it on here before, but I am very curious to know if my DD had it. In February DD awoke one morning complaining of an upset stomach. I told her she was probably hungry, to eat breakfast and see how she felt afterward. After eating she said she felt fine, and because she did not have any other symptoms I sent her to school. Midday her teacher text me asking how her morning was. I explained the tummy issue. Teacher sent DD to nurse, nurse sent DD back to class. Teacher told me DD didn't really have any true symptoms but she looked like she did not feel well and was just not acting herself. DH picked DD up from school based on what teacher said. We don't want to be those parents

When DD came home, she looked off. It is hard to describe. She fell asleep, awoke with a fever and a terrible headache. DD has never complained of a headache before. She was only ill for 2 days but complained of a headache the entire time. Just a headache and fever. Zero other symptoms. At one point I was evaluating her for meningitis symptoms because the headache part was throwing me for a loop.

Anyway, the more we learn about COVID and kids I am genuinely curious if this mysterious headache was that. When she returned to school her teacher and I were talking about the weird illnesses that were making their way around the class and how many kids were out. Same with my clients who are teachers themselves. Some days one teacher only had 8 kids in her class because everyone else was out sick.

This whole situation is a double edged sword. Open economy and businesses and risk a big upswing in illnesses. Keep it closed to try and save lives and avoid overrunning the hospitals and we run into an economic collapse that could very well be worse than the virus.

I don't know what to do.
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Old 04-16-2020, 11:07 AM
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I hate it, but I think we can orchestrate it to begin opening gradually.

If covid-19 numbers go up, back off. It's not going to be cut and dry, and it's risky because for many people it is a matter of life and death.

But everything is a risk, think of car accidents: we don't close roads because people die in car accidents, we make speed limits, and rules to follow to try to reduce deaths. It's the same with the virus. I don't have the answers, but I don't think cutting everything off completely, for longer, is the answer.
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Old 04-16-2020, 11:16 AM
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My opinion might be controversial but here goes!

I think that the economic downfall is not worth the lives we may save. The economy is going into the toilet and small and medium sized businesses are being hit the hardest. Poverty and unemployment will be rampant not to mention the huge debt from government assistance right now (increased taxes, interest rates). Here in Canada most of the deaths are occurring in nursing homes. Nothing was set up to protect the elderly crammed together in these homes but yet we are required to stay home, leave our livelihoods to save elderly people right now. Hindsight is 20/20 of course but this never should have happened. Why wasn’t more done to prepare our hospitals for this? We are paying the ultimate price economically right now. Some economists are saying that the poverty that comes next will likely kill many more people and I tend to agree.

You guys in the USA with for profit healthcare are in even greater danger I think.
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Old 04-16-2020, 11:28 AM
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I agree with Ariana to a degree.

We have to do our best to not get our hospitals overwhelmed and not get in a situation where we are building mass graves.
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Old 04-16-2020, 11:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariana View Post
My opinion might be controversial but here goes!

I think that the economic downfall is not worth the lives we may save. The economy is going into the toilet and small and medium sized businesses are being hit the hardest. Poverty and unemployment will be rampant not to mention the huge debt from government assistance right now (increased taxes, interest rates). Here in Canada most of the deaths are occurring in nursing homes. Nothing was set up to protect the elderly crammed together in these homes but yet we are required to stay home, leave our livelihoods to save elderly people right now. Hindsight is 20/20 of course but this never should have happened. Why wasn’t more done to prepare our hospitals for this? We are paying the ultimate price economically right now. Some economists are saying that the poverty that comes next will likely kill many more people and I tend to agree.

You guys in the USA with for profit healthcare are in even greater danger I think.
You are the closet opinion to how I see things. We are fighting a war but are not willing to take numbers of dead to win this war. It’s a live free or die situation IMO.100% contraction rate for this virus. Vaccines don’t cure the flu and it won’t for COVID-19. Do we surrender to our fears, capitulate in isolation and become the spoils or war to this enemy? Because at this point we are losing this battle out of fear or dying. I will write more later when I get some more time.
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Old 04-16-2020, 11:49 AM
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I want to add that I am in a unique situation and probably very sheltered.

I am following the virus numbers mainly in NYC from my computers, safely in Utah.

Here, the virus isn't very bad. I am working in an "essential" industry and so far, my job has been protected. I still leave my home each day to go to work. My husband is taking on a whole new level of responsibilities considering our children are not in daycare.

Our bank account is growing because we are not doing our entertainment activities and staying home. I worry about everyone else financially, and those who are losing loved ones and can not be with them.
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Old 04-16-2020, 12:36 PM
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We are at War
I know of no war where its victors stayed at home in fear of their lives. The greatest of victories were won when warriors overcame their fear to fight on the battlefield. In our current war with a faceless enemy, there is also a psychological war being waged that will ultimately determine victory or failure. How does a nation engage its people to become fighters in the battle?

We hear daily from the press and doctors why we should fear this enemy. We are effectively hunkered down at home, fearing the unexpected and unable to manage the normal life we should expect.

Every battle, that America has waged and won, involved the deaths of Americans. It was the price we paid to live free and dwell in the world we wanted to live in. We of course want to minimize those numbers and mitigate the transmission of the virus, but it was never the reason why we didnít engage the enemy. We can not wait forever in our homes for someone to deliver us.

This administration may know that the people of this country are not ready to wage war on this battlefield. It canít declare war without the support of its people as fighters. It seems we are already losing the psychological war to the virus. FDR once said, there is nothing to fear but fear itself. Fear is now our greatest enemy and can create a far greater cost than this disease.
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Old 04-16-2020, 01:01 PM
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While I agree with Michael somewhat, putting personal faces and relationships into this fight becomes a different battle.
Yes, I agree this battle needs fighting but there has got to be a different way than exposing everybody we care about and risk the exhaustion of medical services altogether.

Put your family's names into this battle and what, then, are you willing to compromise? What are you willing to change, give up or forge ahead with? If Covid-19 came for your child/ren or partner.........chances are they wouldn't die but you/we/I don't know that.
There have got to be different choices and answers in this dilemma. Maybe a very slow easing into some businesses reopening, meeting certain criteria along the way such as providing all the essential protection needed to work more safely.
IDK what the answers are but either way this whole thing scares the beejeebers out of me. Not so much for myself but for my children, dh, my friends and loved ones.
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Old 04-16-2020, 01:16 PM
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I wonít get the vaccine
A vaccine for this is soooooo very far away and this is SARS. I will not get the vaccine either.
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Old 04-16-2020, 01:19 PM
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Isolation is not really winning the war. It is slowing the spread maybe? Its hard to tell without actual testing and actual numbers. They are saying that everyone will be infected by the time we get a vaccine so what is the point? 80% of people will have mild symptoms and a very small percentage will die. Even if you look at all of the deaths in the USA right now it is a drop in the bucket compared to the population not dying. No one wants to die, ever but it is part of life.

I understand what you are saying Josie but we risk our lives every day with things that are FAR more statistically fatal. We are used to that fear and we manage it, otherwise no one would drive a car again for example.

I just think the ramification will affect a much greater percentage of the population than this virus will. But it remains to be seen. I truly hope I am wrong. What is happening in nursing homes right now makes me very angry because they are the very people we are supposed to be protecting but nothing was done for them. Low wages for staff means many quit rather than contract the virus. Lack of PPE for the staff who come and go every day. I just don’t believe that any of this is to save peoples lives.
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Old 04-16-2020, 01:19 PM
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I will happily get a vaccine
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Old 04-16-2020, 01:24 PM
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I live in New York. Not New York city but we are shut down until May 15th now. I think opening need to start very gradually. Antibody tests would be nice for all businesses. We have to learn to live with this virus. It's not going away. Suicide rates must be through the roof along with drug use. People need to work. This is a nightmare. My elderly father will never leave his home. He is waiting for a vaccine which may never happen and if it does may be dangerous. Gah
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Old 04-16-2020, 01:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jenboo View Post
I was reading a thread on Facebook where nurses/ doctors/ hospital workers were updating the status of their hospital.... Just about everyone, minus anyone in NY & NJ, said that their hospital is eerily empty, they have an abundance of ppe, staff are having a major cut in hours, travel nurses are being terminated, some haven't seen any COVID patients, makeshift satellite COVID units are being shut down because there isn't a need..... so im wondering what the heck is actually true??? I feel that all im hearing is conflicting information and have no idea who, or what, to believe.
I am a New Yorker, it's never going to end here. I can't believe that there are hospitals with nothing going on.
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Old 04-16-2020, 01:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael View Post
We are at War
I know of no war where its victors stayed at home in fear of their lives. The greatest of victories were won when warriors overcame their fear to fight on the battlefield. In our current war with a faceless enemy, there is also a psychological war being waged that will ultimately determine victory or failure. How does a nation engage its people to become fighters in the battle?

We hear daily from the press and doctors why we should fear this enemy. We are effectively hunkered down at home, fearing the unexpected and unable to manage the normal life we should expect.

Every battle, that America has waged and won, involved the deaths of Americans. It was the price we paid to live free and dwell in the world we wanted to live in. We of course want to minimize those numbers and mitigate the transmission of the virus, but it was never the reason why we didn’t engage the enemy. We can not wait forever in our homes for someone to deliver us.

This administration may know that the people of this country are not ready to wage war on this battlefield. It can’t declare war without the support of its people as fighters. It seems we are already losing the psychological war to the virus. FDR once said, there is nothing to fear but fear itself. Fear is now our greatest enemy and can create a far greater cost than this disease.
Lots of great points here.

Last edited by Michael; 04-16-2020 at 01:51 PM.
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Old 04-16-2020, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Josiegirl View Post
While I agree with Michael somewhat, putting personal faces and relationships into this fight becomes a different battle.
Yes, I agree this battle needs fighting but there has got to be a different way than exposing everybody we care about and risk the exhaustion of medical services altogether.

Put your family's names into this battle and what, then, are you willing to compromise? What are you willing to change, give up or forge ahead with? If Covid-19 came for your child/ren or partner.........chances are they wouldn't die but you/we/I don't know that.
There have got to be different choices and answers in this dilemma. Maybe a very slow easing into some businesses reopening, meeting certain criteria along the way such as providing all the essential protection needed to work more safely.
IDK what the answers are but either way this whole thing scares the beejeebers out of me. Not so much for myself but for my children, dh, my friends and loved ones.
It’s understandable but with that logic we would have never have won our independence from England nor won WWII. This is a fight we must win at all costs.

Let those that want to get back to work or open their businesses to do so. They are the frontline in our fight for our economy and way of life. Those that want to stay home should be allowed to do so with no loss of employment or furlough. A blanketed loss of our liberties and freedoms is not the answer. The enemy is taking over our streets and businesses. The longer we let it infiltrate our society the harder it will be to extricate it and remove the scars from it,

Last edited by Michael; 04-16-2020 at 02:07 PM.
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Old 04-16-2020, 02:16 PM
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Itís understandable but with that logic we would have never have won our independence from England nor won WWII. This is a fight we must win at all costs.

Let those that want to get back to work or open their businesses to do so. They are the frontline in our fight for our economy and way of life. Those that want to stay home should be allowed to do so with no loss of employment or furlough. A blanketed loss of our liberties and freedoms is not the answer. The enemy is taking over our streets and businesses. The longer we let it infiltrate our society the harder it will be to extricate it and remove the scars from it,
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Old 04-16-2020, 03:05 PM
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I voted now...let each state decide.

Personally, I am a bit tired of having to live under rules that protect only a small portion of our country.

I don't live in New York and my life and everything here where I live might as well be a completely different country so it's ridiculous to think that what happens there will happen here.

I agree with a majority of what Michael and Ariana said.

The media has blown this out of proportion on many levels and I think people should be allowed to make decisions HERE that impact the people living HERE.

How far will we allow the government to go before it becomes over reaching?
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Old 04-16-2020, 04:14 PM
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I voted now...let each state decide.

Personally, I am a bit tired of having to live under rules that protect only a small portion of our country.

I don't live in New York and my life and everything here where I live might as well be a completely different country so it's ridiculous to think that what happens there will happen here.

I agree with a majority of what Michael and Ariana said.

The media has blown this out of proportion on many levels and I think people should be allowed to make decisions HERE that impact the people living HERE.

How far will we allow the government to go before it becomes over reaching?
I live in Upstate NY, nowhere near NY city. My little town only had 2 covid cases about 1 month ago. Nearby towns have very few cases. But because we are in NY we are forced in this lockdown for another whole month. It's ridiculous. No reason why people around here can't get back to life.
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Old 04-16-2020, 04:53 PM
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We are at War
I know of no war where its victors stayed at home in fear of their lives. The greatest of victories were won when warriors overcame their fear to fight on the battlefield. In our current war with a faceless enemy, there is also a psychological war being waged that will ultimately determine victory or failure. How does a nation engage its people to become fighters in the battle?

We hear daily from the press and doctors why we should fear this enemy. We are effectively hunkered down at home, fearing the unexpected and unable to manage the normal life we should expect.

Every battle, that America has waged and won, involved the deaths of Americans. It was the price we paid to live free and dwell in the world we wanted to live in. We of course want to minimize those numbers and mitigate the transmission of the virus, but it was never the reason why we didnít engage the enemy. We can not wait forever in our homes for someone to deliver us.

This administration may know that the people of this country are not ready to wage war on this battlefield. It canít declare war without the support of its people as fighters. It seems we are already losing the psychological war to the virus. FDR once said, there is nothing to fear but fear itself. Fear is now our greatest enemy and can create a far greater cost than this disease.
I can't ever remember a time when soldiers went to war without having weapons to protect themselves and to fight against the enemy. I also can't remember a war when soldiers were asked to fight an invisible enemy and were victorious.

I hear arguments for and against resuming our normal lives as soon as possible. I get both sides of the argument. I know the economy is suffering and I agree we can't hunker down and hide forever but to resume life as normal while the numbers of sick and dying are still on the rise, seems foolhardy to me. Having people go about their normal activities without knowing (and in some cases, not caring) if they are carriers of the virus is tantamount to "friendly fire" in my book. Until we have proper testing for all, medications to mitigate the effects of this disease for those who get it, proper social distancing and hygiene practices by everyone and eventually a vaccine, I won't feel comfortable getting back to normal life.

Going further using the war time analogy...We have health care workers (medics on the front line) in my state who are literally begging people to stay home and socially isolate because they still don't have enough PPE to protect themselves, their patients and their families and they don't have enough ventilators to deal with the number of sick and dying "casualties of war" who need them. (Last week, doctors in this state were given guidelines to help them determine who gets a ventilator and who doesn't because there weren't enough for everyone who needed them.) Their fellow medics are getting sick and dying as well. It's scary to think that if enough of them get sick and die, those of us who get sick during a second wave of this virus will have fewer medical professionals to help us in our time of need. (China is already showing signs of a second round and we're being told there probably will be one in the fall/winter and it could be worse than this first one.)

When I hear people saying it's worth the risk of lives to save the economy, I think, "OK. I have 2 adult kids and a husband who are all at high risk for serious complications should they get this virus. Which one is expendable?" (Who, in your own family, are you willing to lose for the sake of the economy? Your mother? Your grandfather? Your spouse? Your daughter? Your new born?) The thought of any one of my family members dying, not to mention dying alone because visitors are not allowed into the hospital to be with them to comfort them, upsets me like nothing else does - especially if it can be prevented.
In war, I wouldn't dream of placing any one of them at the front of the enemy line, with no weapons to defend themselves, consoling myself with the thought that they died so our so our economy could get back to where it should be. "Sorry; we knew there would have to be sacrifices and, well...looks like you're it! I hate this for you but...I've got to get home to bed so I'll be going now; I have to get to work in the morning."

I'm not sure what the right answer is and it isn't like I really have a choice in what happens next anyway. I have to live with the results of whatever decisions are made for our country and for the state I live in. I just hope the leaders who are in charge in all levels of government think long and hard about the decisions they're making and do the right thing for the well being of their citizens - not for their ego, their campaign strategies or their political affiliations. I hope they listen to the medical experts like Dr. Fauci and act accordingly.
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Old 04-16-2020, 05:09 PM
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I live in Upstate NY, nowhere near NY city. My little town only had 2 covid cases about 1 month ago. Nearby towns have very few cases. But because we are in NY we are forced in this lockdown for another whole month. It's ridiculous. No reason why people around here can't get back to life.
I'm honestly not being argumentative or snide so please don't take it that way - is it possible your area (and other areas of the country who have had so few covid cases) have had so few because of the lockdowns that have been put into place?

We have 14 cases in our town right now. Compared to 4600 plus cases in the state capitol which is about 50 miles from us. I feel strongly that we have such a low count because of the social distancing advisory that was put into place last month. Our state has entered into the surge period that was predicted for this week and next. I'm happy to continue to stay in place for now if it means not contracting this virus and helping to slow the spread.
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Old 04-16-2020, 05:20 PM
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I'm honestly not being argumentative or snide so please don't take it that way - is it possible your area (and other areas of the country who have had so few covid cases) have had so few because of the lockdowns that have been put into place?

We have 14 cases in our town right now. Compared to 4600 plus cases in the state capitol which is about 50 miles from us. I feel strongly that we have such a low count because of the social distancing advisory that was put into place last month. Our state has entered into the surge period that was predicted for this week and next. I'm happy to continue to stay in place for now if it means not contracting this virus and helping to slow the spread.
The town I live in and the surrounding towns are naturally socially distant. Think farm country, endless fields of corn, ect. We are by nature distant, spread out.
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Old 04-16-2020, 06:46 PM
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I can't ever remember a time when soldiers went to war without having weapons to protect themselves and to fight against the enemy. I also can't remember a war when soldiers were asked to fight an invisible enemy and were victorious.

I hear arguments for and against resuming our normal lives as soon as possible. I get both sides of the argument. I know the economy is suffering and I agree we can't hunker down and hide forever but to resume life as normal while the numbers of sick and dying are still on the rise, seems foolhardy to me. Having people go about their normal activities without knowing (and in some cases, not caring) if they are carriers of the virus is tantamount to "friendly fire" in my book. Until we have proper testing for all, medications to mitigate the effects of this disease for those who get it, proper social distancing and hygiene practices by everyone and eventually a vaccine, I won't feel comfortable getting back to normal life.

Going further using the war time analogy...We have health care workers (medics on the front line) in my state who are literally begging people to stay home and socially isolate because they still don't have enough PPE to protect themselves, their patients and their families and they don't have enough ventilators to deal with the number of sick and dying "casualties of war" who need them. (Last week, doctors in this state were given guidelines to help them determine who gets a ventilator and who doesn't because there weren't enough for everyone who needed them.) Their fellow medics are getting sick and dying as well. It's scary to think that if enough of them get sick and die, those of us who get sick during a second wave of this virus will have fewer medical professionals to help us in our time of need. (China is already showing signs of a second round and we're being told there probably will be one in the fall/winter and it could be worse than this first one.)

When I hear people saying it's worth the risk of lives to save the economy, I think, "OK. I have 2 adult kids and a husband who are all at high risk for serious complications should they get this virus. Which one is expendable?" (Who, in your own family, are you willing to lose for the sake of the economy? Your mother? Your grandfather? Your spouse? Your daughter? Your new born?) The thought of any one of my family members dying, not to mention dying alone because visitors are not allowed into the hospital to be with them to comfort them, upsets me like nothing else does - especially if it can be prevented.
In war, I wouldn't dream of placing any one of them at the front of the enemy line, with no weapons to defend themselves, consoling myself with the thought that they died so our so our economy could get back to where it should be. "Sorry; we knew there would have to be sacrifices and, well...looks like you're it! I hate this for you but...I've got to get home to bed so I'll be going now; I have to get to work in the morning."

I'm not sure what the right answer is and it isn't like I really have a choice in what happens next anyway. I have to live with the results of whatever decisions are made for our country and for the state I live in. I just hope the leaders who are in charge in all levels of government think long and hard about the decisions they're making and do the right thing for the well being of their citizens - not for their ego, their campaign strategies or their political affiliations. I hope they listen to the medical experts like Dr. Fauci and act accordingly.
My sentiments almost to a T.
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Old 04-16-2020, 07:07 PM
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I'm just very glad I'm not the one in charge of making decisions. Because really, how do you weigh the costs? And there will be costs, heavy ones, no matter what happens.
It is very real where I am. I'm in a more secluded part of my state. There are "only" about 600 cases in my county; 75 in my town. In the next town over they found 17 bodies stuffed in a 4 person morgue in a nursing home where 68 total people have died. I don't see things safely opening up anytime soon. Here, staying home is not about fear. It's about safety. Lifting restrictions would not just be sending people out into the battlefield unprotected without weapons to fight the enemy, they could also be unknowingly fighting on the side of the enemy.

That's this area though. Places where things aren't so bad might be able to ease things up. In general, I think the decision needs to be up to the states. My concern is probably the opposite of everyone else: I'm more worried about the government trying to force things back open before it's practical.

I just don't see a solution that doesn't involve people dying. Keeping restrictions can lead to economic downfall and skyrocketing suicide rates. Easing restrictions too soon/fast can lead to overwhelmed health care systems having to make decisions about who gets treated.
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Old 04-17-2020, 03:31 AM
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I can't ever remember a time when soldiers went to war without having weapons to protect themselves and to fight against the enemy. I also can't remember a war when soldiers were asked to fight an invisible enemy and were victorious.
We have weapons, they are called masks, sanitization, our immune systems, testing, drugs that are showing promise, a healthcare system and a national effort to control this virus. If you are currently wearing a mask and going to the store to buy groceries, you are on the frontline combating the contraction of COVID-19. You can use the same protection to go anywhere else as you normally would with some exceptions. Staying in your home to keep yourself alive is extreme and can only last for so long. Would you consider never driving your car if you knew no one would die in car accidents ever again? I think the answer would be-no.

A destroyed economy means a destroyed America. That picture would produce civil unrest and unravel the fabric of society. That would create a type of devastation that no war has ever produced in American history.

Even with our best economy with a great GDP, we were still at our max debt of $23 trillion to GDP before this virus struck. We just added another two trillion and could well reach $6 trillion total by the end of the year. What makes this situation even worse is our GDP is now down 30% this quarter and getting worse. How do we pay down our debt? Answer—at this rate we never will.

If this current evaporation of our economy continues beyond six months, we will become a country controlled by a centralized government—meaning the government will own or control the private sector. Capitalism as we know it will cease to exist.

The federal reserve can not buy our economy. No one is saying that we should go back to doing things as before but we must adapt our economy to the challenges this virus creates.

Bottom line-big cities will economically collapse under quarantine. States and rural communities that are have natural distancing will survive or thrive.

The world was not prepared for this virus. The biggest error early on was with the government task force stating that face masks don’t work. We were left without protection for several weeks while the virus was able to spread. Face masks do work, sanitizing works and we should be going about our business now with these tools/weapons.

Now with testing, it appears that we have a somewhat better understanding of the mortality rate which may be much lower then previously feared. Many more seem to have already had this virus and were Asymptomatic and can now be counted. Finding and notifying those that are immune is an important metric to know. We must protect those that are vulnerable to this disease but that should not include stopping life for everyone else.

Last edited by Michael; 04-17-2020 at 11:41 AM.
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Old 04-17-2020, 04:22 AM
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A little off topic...but wth China? Did anyone see their numbers today?
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Old 04-17-2020, 04:34 AM
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We have weapons, they are called masks, sanitization, our immune systems, testing, drugs that are showing promise, a healthcare system and a national effort to control this virus. If you are currently wearing a mask and going to the store to buy groceries, you are on the frontline combating the contraction of COVID-19. You can use the same protection to go anywhere else as you normally would with some exceptions. Staying in your home to keep yourself alive is extreme and can only last for so long. Would you consider never driving your car if you knew no one would die in car accidents ever again? I think the answer would be-no.

A destroyed economy means a destroyed America. That picture would produce civil unrest and unraveling the fabric of society. That would create a type of devastation that no war has ever produced in America in history.

Even with our best economy with a great GDP, we were still at our max debt of $23 trillion to GDP before this virus struck. We just added another two trillion and could well reach $6 trillion total by the end of the year. What makes this situation even worse is our GDP is now down 30% this quarter and getting worse. How do we pay down our debt? Answer-at this rate we never will.

If this current evaporation of our economy continues beyond six months, we will become a country controlled by a centralized government—meaning the government will own or control the private sector. Capitalism as we know it will cease to exist.

The federal reserve can not buy our economy. No one is saying that we should go back to doing things as before but we must adapt our economy to the challenges this virus creates.

Bottom line-big cities will economically collapse under quarantine. States and rural communities that are have natural distancing will survive or thrive.

The world was not prepared for this virus. The biggest error early on was with the government task force stating that face masks don’t work. We were left without protect for several weeks while the virus was able to spread. Face masks do work, sanitizing works and we should be going about our business now with these tools/weapons.

Now with testing, it appears that we have a somewhat better understanding of the mortality rate which may be much lower then previously feared. Many more seem to have already had this virus and were Asymptomatic and can now be counted. Finding and notifying those that are immune is an important metric to know. We must protect those that are vulnerable to this disease but that should not include stopping life for everyone else.

Ugh truth for sure.
One thing I do disagree with is that we have a healthcare system. We also don't have an emergency response system or a postmortem system to accommodate the ones afflicted by this virus.

If we are to return to "normal" in the sense that most go back to work, stores, sports venues, conventions, gambling etc., then we also need to understand that the medical systems need to go back to normal too.

The paramedics, doctors, nurses, morticians, aides, home health workers etc. need to go back to normal. This not only means working normal hours and carrying normal case loads, but also that if they don't have the equipment to protect themselves they do not work at all. period.

Are we ready to say to the public... we can't receive you at this hospital because the staff is already serving it's normal load... we can't receive you at this hospital because the staff doesn't have ppe.... we can't receive you at this hospital because the staff is serving our non covid clients for surgeries, outpatient procedures, testing and elective services wherein the hospital makes the profits it needs to stay afloat.... we can't receive you at this hospital because our staff must have time off as they did before.

We can't receive your loved ones body after death because the funeral homes and mortuaries are at normal capacity. We don't want full capacity because the staff has to go back to normal average work hours. We can't respond to your 911 calls because our workers have vacation time they need to use up before years end.

You need any of the above services and we can't normally oblige... it's up to YOU to source services in another county or even another state where (as one poster above stated) the doctors and nurses are having their hours cut and the hospitals are near empty. You have to source a service to manage your loved ones body after death.

If we are going back to normal then the healthcare system MUST be able to go back to normal too. This means denying services without hesitation if taking the ill and dead means it interrupts their normal case loads and normal work hours. This means denying services if the health care workers do not have more than adequate PPE.

From where I sit, I can't see not having the whole spectrum of healthcare mirror what is done in society. We will need these healthcare workers and services when this is over with. Let's make sure the expectations for them returns to normal when society does.

I don't know... it's a ridiculous idea but I can't see past how we can do one without the other. We have applauded health care workers as heroes but we need to allow them back into the role of just workers so they aren't expected to do more... go above and beyond.

Last edited by nannyde; 04-17-2020 at 04:37 AM.
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Old 04-17-2020, 04:36 AM
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My sentiments almost to a T.
Me too.
E.J. you said it so much better than I ever could.
While I am positive we're all pretty sick of living this way, I am NOT willing to sacrifice my dds, my ds, anyone I love to the front lines. And I'm not sure I agree with the whole war analogy either, except that your comment about people don't fight wars without weapons hit the mark.

IF/WHEN the economy starts to reopen, it HAS got to be different than it ever was before. Those 'weapons' have got to be in place and used efficiently for it to work or it'll get worse than ever.

I agree that the economy is going to he!!, people need to get back to work, but I don't think we can put a time table on it.

So, please discuss how the world can get back to working safely without creating even more chaos? I'd like to see ideas.

I do see many businesses that could be open, with stricter guidelines, and work safely enough. Hair salons, Libraries, car dealerships, vets, dentists, retail stores such as JCPenny's, etc. They're not deemed essential but could help ease our way back to normal. Why can't they open some places using the social distancing/limiting to certain numbers/wearing masks and gloves, etc. guidelines they have in place now?

Sorry I seem to have much to say on this topic. It's our #1 topic of conversation in our home everyday.

But I love seeing people's opinions and ideas.

ETA: And if we're talking about living in fear now versus when everything 'gets back to normal'. I don't know about everyone else but this fear will never leave me now. I remember being in 1st grade and we were still having air-raid drills at school due to WW11, and this was 1960.
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Old 04-17-2020, 04:49 AM
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"We must protect those that are vulnerable to this disease but that should not include stopping life for everyone else."

This I agree with 100%. I am confused about the immunity issue though. The question has come up about 'can you get this more than once?'

Nannyde, that's a heavy load to think about; scary and overwhelming. How thin is the country willing to stretch the system?

When will we catch up to where we need to be in the production of all the needed protection/equipment to treat and protect people? How will the workers keep up and keep going on? Their resources are limited too.
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Old 04-17-2020, 05:44 AM
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Great discussions for sure and although I agree with Michael there is validity on both sides.

We are apparently ďflattening the curveĒ here in Canada so we may resume normal life sooner than expected....we will see. Now that people are wearing masks everywhere finally we may have a fighting chance at beating it. I also hope Canada becomes less dependent on other countries for production. Maybe this will be a wake up call that we depend on China too much.

All you have to do is look to countries that required face masks to see that this simple logical precaution could have saved thousands of people. Why wasnít North America more prepared? Why is the province of Alberta the most prepared area in North America and maybe the world? They had so much PPE stockpiled (because they started buying it in December when they first heard of the virus) they are now shipping it to other provinces. Lots of lessons to learn.
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Old 04-17-2020, 07:06 AM
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I think its time to open certain things. Salons can close waiting areas and do appointment only. And most places can limit capacity. If the capacity was 100, change it to 25. Do all online tickets so people dont congregate and once they are all sold out for the day you will know to try again another day. Still do social distancing. Wear a mask.


Another good poll would be: Whose actually going to get this vaccine as soon as it drops?....because its being fast tracked, im skeptical on how safe it will be.
I wish they would reopen the garden centers even under tight restrictions, so people could plant flowers and recover a bit of mental health in the process.
I don't see what the difference is since we can shop in other stores.

I will not get the vaccine!
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Old 04-17-2020, 07:15 AM
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I wish they would reopen the garden centers even under tight restrictions, so people could plant flowers and recover a bit of mental health in the process.
I don't see what the difference is since we can shop in other stores.

I will not get the vaccine!
I agree. I need a few shrubs to manage a water run-off and erosion issue. It will affect my inspection if left unchecked so it is essential to me.

If liquor stores can stay open so should nurseries, garden centers and greenhouses.
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Old 04-17-2020, 10:54 AM
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I think we never should have closed.

As in ANY dangerous situation, we should have isolated those most vulnerable. Our elderly and immuno-compromised.

THOSE individuals should have been financially supported, have food delivered, etc.

Life should have continued as usual for everyone else.

I feel that the mortality rate for healthy individuals data is inaccurate, as we aren't mass testing. We are only testing the very ill at this point. I would also be curious to look at some titer testing.

I am NOT complying with face covering requirements in NY (it is mandatory while I work AND in public). I will risk a fine when I shop once a week. I do not have an N95 and ANY OTHER MASK is ineffective. I have seen an INSANE amount of cross contamination by well intentioned people with masks and gloves.

Leave the PPE to the high risk and medical staff, PLEASE.

Sorry, over it.
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Old 04-17-2020, 12:01 PM
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As much as we are all entitled to different views and opinions, I'm shocked and saddened to read all of these comments about not wanting to follow the law and doing your part to keep the spread down. This is a serious thing that is not going away as quickly as we all had hoped. To openly state you will not follow executive orders is just appalling to me. Just because you don't agree with a law doesn't mean you can break it. There are daycare regulations that I don't agree with but I still follow them because that is part of being a quality daycare provider.
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Old 04-17-2020, 12:40 PM
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As much as we are all entitled to different views and opinions, I'm shocked and saddened to read all of these comments about not wanting to follow the law and doing your part to keep the spread down. This is a serious thing that is not going away as quickly as we all had hoped. To openly state you will not follow executive orders is just appalling to me. Just because you don't agree with a law doesn't mean you can break it. There are daycare regulations that I don't agree with but I still follow them because that is part of being a quality daycare provider.
Stay at home orders aren't necessarily laws.
At least not in a criminal manner and comparing stay at home orders to daycare laws is apples to oranges.

Child care providers AGREE to abide by the laws and regulations imposed on us willingly.

Not everyone sees orders to shelter at home as something they agree with.
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Old 04-17-2020, 01:19 PM
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I'm referring to executive orders such as wearing a mask in public. Executive orders are laws that we have to follow as citizens. It is the same as following any law regardless if we agree or disagree with the law.
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Old 04-17-2020, 01:21 PM
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I'm referring to executive orders such as wearing a mask in public. Executive orders are laws that we have to follow as citizens. It is the same as following any law regardless if we agree or disagree with the law.
Unless I am mistaken the only executive order that is actually a legal and constitutional law is one ordered by the POTUS.
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Old 04-17-2020, 01:30 PM
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State governors also have the authority to make executive orders, not just the president.
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Old 04-17-2020, 01:33 PM
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Hereís a company that decided safety measures were too costly and apparently meant for other people.
Employers wonít take care of their employees unless they are called on it.
Until a system is in place that ensures everyone is provided proper PPE and sanitation measures, the ability to social distance at work, sick leave and medical care, and no threat of retribution for reporting noncompliance, we canít expect people to willing go into places that are basically Petri dishes under normal circumstances.
And itís great and wonderful if you and yours do what is right, but you will eventually be impacted by those that donít.
The employees in the article were expected to show up without protection even though people at the plant were sick.
No show=quitting=no unemployment.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52311877

There is going to need to be a new normal and we are going to have to give up the illusion of going back to business as usual. Sacrifices are going to be needed, comforts, entertainment, celebrations, other things we took for granted are all going to change. But IMHO, we should not be sacrificing the lives of those we collectively seem to deem disposable because our 401Ks are not doing so great or because our kids donít get to attend their graduation ceremony. Sorry grandma, Bobby has been waiting his whole entire life for this 3 hour ceremony, but youíve lived a long life, you get it.
I have seen people ready to throw away the last month of shelter in place because their kids are missing prom.

And on a side note, anyone been reading up on all the fun organ damage some of the people that have recovered are going to be saddled with for the rest of their lives?
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Old 04-17-2020, 01:41 PM
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Well said Vesta! Thank you!
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Old 04-17-2020, 02:15 PM
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State governors also have the authority to make executive orders, not just the president.
IF the order is constitutional.

... and that is where the problem lies and allows people to choose to follow or not follow orders.
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Old 04-17-2020, 02:20 PM
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we can’t expect people to willing go into places that are basically Petri dishes under normal circumstances.
Petri dishes? Our earth can naturally be a filthy place that requires our species to update our bodies with herd immunity. What we are doing now to sanitize everything is unnatural and will eventually alter our RNA and DNA. It is similar to taking antibiotics for every sniffle we are weary of. What ends up happening is we weaken our natural immune system. That system has taken hundreds of thousands of years to create. Every drug is too late for the emergence of a new illness. We will have a perilous future if we wait on mankind to keep us safe from every potential disease or illness. It is our duty to boost our immune system and then use alternatives like drugs and medications if our immune system fails. Too much sanitizing and cleanliness is a recipe for disaster. We may be creating far bigger problems for the future.

Last edited by Michael; 04-17-2020 at 02:26 PM.
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Old 04-17-2020, 02:28 PM
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IF the order is constitutional.

... and that is where the problem lies and allows people to choose to follow or not follow orders.
In order for anyone to deem it unconstitutional and not follow it, it must be brought to court to fight it and get it overturned. It doesn't give people the right to not follow orders without proving it is unconstitutional. Fines will be imposed if they choose to not follow an order. There were non essential businesses that decided to not follow an order and they had the police come, shut them down and fine them here in NY.

The big question is why would anyone not want to follow these executive orders put in place to protect themselves and others? It is a simple thing to put on a face covering when in public. I don't get why this is even a debate. We have to deal with this virus and be smart about it. All of us have to do the best we can to limit exposure and spread so the hospitals don't get or stay overwhelmed.
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Old 04-17-2020, 02:28 PM
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i think we never should have closed.

As in any dangerous situation, we should have isolated those most vulnerable. Our elderly and immuno-compromised.

Those individuals should have been financially supported, have food delivered, etc.

Life should have continued as usual for everyone else.

I feel that the mortality rate for healthy individuals data is inaccurate, as we aren't mass testing. We are only testing the very ill at this point. I would also be curious to look at some titer testing.

I am not complying with face covering requirements in ny (it is mandatory while i work and in public). I will risk a fine when i shop once a week. I do not have an n95 and any other mask is ineffective. I have seen an insane amount of cross contamination by well intentioned people with masks and gloves.

Leave the ppe to the high risk and medical staff, please.

Sorry, over it.
amen sister!
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Old 04-17-2020, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Vesta View Post
Hereís a company that decided safety measures were too costly and apparently meant for other people.
Employers wonít take care of their employees unless they are called on it.
Until a system is in place that ensures everyone is provided proper PPE and sanitation measures, the ability to social distance at work, sick leave and medical care, and no threat of retribution for reporting noncompliance, we canít expect people to willing go into places that are basically Petri dishes under normal circumstances.
And itís great and wonderful if you and yours do what is right, but you will eventually be impacted by those that donít.
The employees in the article were expected to show up without protection even though people at the plant were sick.
No show=quitting=no unemployment.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52311877

There is going to need to be a new normal and we are going to have to give up the illusion of going back to business as usual. Sacrifices are going to be needed, comforts, entertainment, celebrations, other things we took for granted are all going to change. But IMHO, we should not be sacrificing the lives of those we collectively seem to deem disposable because our 401Ks are not doing so great or because our kids donít get to attend their graduation ceremony. Sorry grandma, Bobby has been waiting his whole entire life for this 3 hour ceremony, but youíve lived a long life, you get it.
I have seen people ready to throw away the last month of shelter in place because their kids are missing prom.

And on a side note, anyone been reading up on all the fun organ damage some of the people that have recovered are going to be saddled with for the rest of their lives?
Really? This is not about 401k, not for most. This is about the small business owner that had to close the business he/she had that supported their family. Now they have nothing. It's not all about people not caring about the elderly. People HAVE to make money to live.
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Old 04-17-2020, 02:35 PM
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Petri dishes? Our earth can naturally be a filthy place that requires our species to update our bodies with herd immunity. What we are doing now to sanitize everything is unnatural and will eventually alter our RNA and DNA. It is similar to taking antibiotics for every sniffle we are weary of. What ends up happening is we weaken our natural immune system. That system has taken hundreds of thousands of years to create. Every drug is too late for the emergence of a new illness. We will have a perilous future if we wait on mankind to keep us safe from every potential disease or illness. It is our duty to boost our immune system and then use alternatives like drugs and medications if our immune system fails. Too much sanitizing and cleanliness is a recipe for disaster. We may be creating far bigger problems for the future.

Call up the Smithfield employees that were forced to work less than 1 ft apart with no protective gear(unless you count beard nets) and tell them thank you for taking the hit to build up herd immunity. Maybe go visit and do your part in building up our collective immunity.
My kids and the rest of the family will not be taking that hit for you and others that share your logic.
And yes, meat processing plants are virtually Petri dishes.
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Old 04-17-2020, 02:37 PM
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The big question is why would anyone not want to follow these executive orders put in place to protect themselves and others? It is a simple thing to put on a face covering when in public. I don't get why this is even a debate. We have to deal with this virus and be smart about it. All of us have to do the best we can to limit exposure and spread so the hospitals don't get or stay overwhelmed.
Most Americans, for the last several weeks, have done their part for the greater good of their country. They should be congratulated not ostracized. Much of what is being imposed now is unconstitutional and draconian. The Constitution and Bill of Rights trump state law. States have broad latitude with their own state constitution and laws as long as it does not run afoul of federal law.

Last edited by Michael; 04-17-2020 at 03:01 PM.
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Old 04-17-2020, 02:37 PM
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In order for anyone to deem it unconstitutional and not follow it, it must be brought to court to fight it and get it overturned. It doesn't give people the right to not follow orders without proving it is unconstitutional. Fines will be imposed if they choose to not follow an order. There were non essential businesses that decided to not follow an order and they had the police come, shut them down and fine them here in NY.
...and the flip side is many don't believe they have to follow the orders if the state/Governor can't prove it is constitutional.

Many states have business refusing to close their doors and are fighting back.

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The big question is why would anyone not want to follow these executive orders put in place to protect themselves and others? It is a simple thing to put on a face covering when in public. I don't get why this is even a debate. We have to deal with this virus and be smart about it. All of us have to do the best we can to limit exposure and spread so the hospitals don't get or stay overwhelmed.
For the exact same reason parents choose to not vaccinate their children. Because they don't believe the info being told to them. So if someone does not believe wearing a mask will protect them or others why wear it?
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Old 04-17-2020, 02:52 PM
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...and the flip side is many don't believe they have to follow the orders if the state/Governor can't prove it is constitutional.

Many states have business refusing to close their doors and are fighting back.

Whether or not people BELIEVE they have to or don't have to follow an order, they still have to until it is overturned or they face penalties

For the exact same reason parents choose to not vaccinate their children. Because they don't believe the info being told to them. So if someone does not believe wearing a mask will protect them or others why wear it?
And those parents can't enroll their children into registered daycares or public schools until they get their children vaccinated in NYS.
And just because someone doesn't BELIEVE that masks won't protect doesn't change the FACTS that masks actually do help slow the spread, along with washing hands, social distancing and sanitizing. Other countries that have already taken these measures are having success with slowing this down. The places that have been ignoring or not quicly enforcing the measures are struggling.
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Old 04-17-2020, 03:04 PM
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Too much sanitizing and cleanliness is a recipe for disaster. We may be creating far bigger problems for the future.
Tell that to the state officials who created all those ultra fastidious cleaning regulations for daycare a couple years back.
I know. Off topic but.......
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Old 04-17-2020, 03:20 PM
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And those parents can't enroll their children into registered daycares or public schools until they get their children vaccinated in NYS.
And just because someone doesn't BELIEVE that masks won't protect doesn't change the FACTS that masks actually do help slow the spread, along with washing hands, social distancing and sanitizing. Other countries that have already taken these measures are having success with slowing this down. The places that have been ignoring or not quicly enforcing the measures are struggling.
But we aren't talking about just New York.
New York is nothing like where I live.

I also respect the fact that we live in a country where people are allowed to make their own choices so if someone isn't wanting to wear a mask because they choose not to believe it's right, that is their right to do.

I refuse to shove my beliefs down someone else's throat and I am old and experienced enough to know that if I am the one concerned about spread/contact then I am the one that should remain home instead of expecting others to do something first.
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Old 04-17-2020, 03:26 PM
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We have weapons, they are called masks, sanitization, our immune systems, testing, drugs that are showing promise, a healthcare system and a national effort to control this virus. If you are currently wearing a mask and going to the store to buy groceries, you are on the frontline combating the contraction of COVID-19. You can use the same protection to go anywhere else as you normally would with some exceptions. Staying in your home to keep yourself alive is extreme and can only last for so long. Would you consider never driving your car if you knew no one would die in car accidents ever again? I think the answer would be-no.
The weapons we are being asked to use right now are like sending our soldiers into war with pistols. I might feel better if the weapons you listed were readily available to everyone. Unfortunately, that's not the case. Masks and hand sanitizers are difficult, if not impossible, to find - at least around here. Ordering online is a crapshoot. As I was trying to order bandanas to make masks for my family, they literally went out of stock before I could hit "order". (I was finally able to get a pack of 12 lilac bandanas. My husband and son will just have to suck it up and wear them anyway. lol) Testing is also difficult to come by around here. Several of my family members' coworkers have had symptoms of covid but were told they weren't eligible for testing. My own dd, who gets regular lung infections as a result of Lyme Disease, had symptoms that could have been that or covid - fever, cough, difficulty breathing. She couldn't get tested because she couldn't point to a specific incidence where she might have been exposed to covid - even when she explained that her coworker had been sick with similar symptoms but hadn't been able to get tested. She works for the post office in an area of the state with a high incidence of the virus; she could have been exposed at any time by anyone coming in to mail a package. She did get a note stating she had to stay out of work until the end of May which was a relief to us....but she couldn't get tested.

Immune systems? This virus is a "novel" one. We've never dealt with this specific strain before so, as a population, our immunity hasn't had the chance to build up to fight against it. Some people do seem to have a natural immunity and some seem to fare better than others when they get it but we still don't have a lot of information about why or how. Not everyone has a strong immune system and there are others who, despite being otherwise young and healthy, die from it. Those are the people, we need to work together to protect. Again, which of your family members are you willing to risk losing if we jump the gun and open up the economy before it's wise to do so?

Those drugs that are showing promise are just that...drugs that are showing promise. Until they've been proven to prevent, cure or at least minimize the effects of covid and are put into use on a regular basis, they aren't an effective weapon against this disease. It's like sending soldiers to the front line and saying, "Hang in there and do your best to fight off the enemy. We'll send you those guns as soon as we get them made! Good luck, now!" Hopefully, those drugs do become weapons in our arsenal before too long but until they are, they can't be considered useful weapons.

I know all areas of the country are not experiencing the same level of difficulty others are but our healthcare system, in those areas that are experiencing a high rate of infection, are overwhelmed. Until we have a healthcare system that can provide the necessary PPE and ventilators needed to handle the numbers of patients who need care, I don't consider our healthcare system to be an effective weapon, either.

The national effort that includes increased hand washing and social distancing seems to be the most effective weapon we've had so far in this fight but even with those in place, we're still seeing so many people getting sick and dying because of how serious this virus is. If everyone could be depended upon to do the right things to protect each other, I'd feel much better about the lifting of restrictions. Unfortunately, I still hear of people working and walking around without masks, still not following social distancing advisories, still not staying home when sick, etc. I think about the grocery store and toilet bowl lickers we've seen on the news who have been caught on camera doing their "thing", the protesters in MI, many of whom were huddled together and not wearing masks and the groups of twenty-somethings who continued to gather to play basketball despite repeated requests, then warnings and then ever tightening restrictions until the hoops had to finally be taken away completely, the people on the news complaining, "Ain't nobody got time to wash their hands for 20 seconds!" and it makes me nervous because I know not all of us are on the same page with regard to our responsibility to protect each other.

As far as driving is concerned...I know people are killed every day in car accidents. I don't stop driving because of the current statistics. I probably would decide to stay home, though, if we start to experience an increase in invisible cars out on the road that cause 10x the number of accidents/deaths that we currently experience - at least until the risk of being hit by one decreases to a point where I feel I can reasonably expect to avoid one of them and be able to make it home in one piece if I go out for a drive in my own car.

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A destroyed economy means a destroyed America. That picture would produce civil unrest and unraveling the fabric of society. That would create a type of devastation that no war has ever produced in America in history.

Even with our best economy with a great GDP, we were still at our max debt of $23 trillion to GDP before this virus struck. We just added another two trillion and could well reach $6 trillion total by the end of the year. What makes this situation even worse is our GDP is now down 30% this quarter and getting worse. How do we pay down our debt? Answer-at this rate we never will.

If this current evaporation of our economy continues beyond six months, we will become a country controlled by a centralized governmentómeaning the government will own or control the private sector. Capitalism as we know it will cease to exist.

The federal reserve can not buy our economy. No one is saying that we should go back to doing things as before but we must adapt our economy to the challenges this virus creates.

Bottom line-big cities will economically collapse under quarantine. States and rural communities that are have natural distancing will survive or thrive.

The world was not prepared for this virus. The biggest error early on was with the government task force stating that face masks donít work. We were left without protect for several weeks while the virus was able to spread. Face masks do work, sanitizing works and we should be going about our business now with these tools/weapons.

Now with testing, it appears that we have a somewhat better understanding of the mortality rate which may be much lower then previously feared. Many more seem to have already had this virus and were Asymptomatic and can now be counted. Finding and notifying those that are immune is an important metric to know. We must protect those that are vulnerable to this disease but that should not include stopping life for everyone else.
I do agree with you that our economy is suffering and we can't stay home forever but I think we need to lift restrictions gradually and intelligently - and be ready to pull back quickly if we experience a resurgence in cases. I feel better now that the president has agreed that it will be up to the governors to decide when to open the states back up. Although I felt our governor didn't react as quickly as I would have liked him to at the beginning of the pandemic, I trust the fact that he has the best interest of the people in this state (and region) at heart and will lift restrictions in an intelligent, thoughtful manner.
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Old 04-17-2020, 03:32 PM
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I am NOT complying with face covering requirements in NY (it is mandatory while I work AND in public). I will risk a fine when I shop once a week. I do not have an N95 and ANY OTHER MASK is ineffective. I have seen an INSANE amount of cross contamination by well intentioned people with masks and gloves.

Leave the PPE to the high risk and medical staff, PLEASE.

Sorry, over it.
Any other mask IS effective at lowering the spread if YOU are infected. That is the whole point. If you cough or sneeze your spray can go up to 10ft. That is not happening in a mask. The mask is not to protect you from Covid 19, it’s to protect others from your germs. There are a ton of asymptomatic people spreading it because they don’t feel sick.

I wish we had to wear masks all the time so flu germs didn’t get all over stuff. I am beginning to relate to the Chinese culture of wearing them.
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Old 04-17-2020, 04:08 PM
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But we aren't talking about just New York.
New York is nothing like where I live.

I also respect the fact that we live in a country where people are allowed to make their own choices so if someone isn't wanting to wear a mask because they choose not to believe it's right, that is their right to do.

I refuse to shove my beliefs down someone else's throat and I am old and experienced enough to know that if I am the one concerned about spread/contact then I am the one that should remain home instead of expecting others to do something first.
You are correct, we aren't just talking about NY. NY waited too long to take measures and that's why it got so bad here. Other states are learning from that mistake and taking measures before things get that bad. It is awful to see businesses go under and people going without any income. I am one of those people, but I am still doing my part to protect myself, my family and other people.

Here is a scenario for you to consider: Let's say you go to the grocery store unmasked, and there is a person standing in line behind you (also unmasked and not standing far enough away from you). That person sneezes in your face and you go home and carry on as usual. Then in about 5 days your healthy spouse becomes extremely ill. You bring him to the hospital but they're overloaded with other patients so your spouse doesn't get the treatment necessary and dies. How would you feel at that moment? Could you have done more to stop the spread? This is one of the reasons why the government is imposing these orders. This is why it's important to follow the orders.

I agree that we all must have rights but some people continue to make poor choices even when presented with facts against those poor choices.

Governors began all of this by giving guidelines and people had choices. From those choices, the virus kept quickly spreading and overwhelming the hospitals, so the state government took away the choices by making those guidelines into laws and enforcing them to better protect everyone.
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Old 04-17-2020, 05:09 PM
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You are correct, we aren't just talking about NY. NY waited too long to take measures and that's why it got so bad here. Other states are learning from that mistake and taking measures before things get that bad. It is awful to see businesses go under and people going without any income. I am one of those people, but I am still doing my part to protect myself, my family and other people.

Here is a scenario for you to consider: Let's say you go to the grocery store unmasked, and there is a person standing in line behind you (also unmasked and not standing far enough away from you). That person sneezes in your face and you go home and carry on as usual. Then in about 5 days your healthy spouse becomes extremely ill. You bring him to the hospital but they're overloaded with other patients so your spouse doesn't get the treatment necessary and dies. How would you feel at that moment? Could you have done more to stop the spread? This is one of the reasons why the government is imposing these orders. This is why it's important to follow the orders.

I agree that we all must have rights but some people continue to make poor choices even when presented with facts against those poor choices.

Governors began all of this by giving guidelines and people had choices. From those choices, the virus kept quickly spreading and overwhelming the hospitals, so the state government took away the choices by making those guidelines into laws and enforcing them to better protect everyone.
Thatís my point ... who has the right to decide whatís a poor choice?

Many donít believe the facts presented by the government are facts. Everyone has a choice and if you (general you) are concerned about people not wearing a mask, stay home.

Thatís easier than forcing people that donít agree to follow rules they donít agree with.

Trust me when I say I fully understand risks but I get to decide whatís right for me/family.

Many providers chose to close in order to protect their families even though their state didnít mandate them to. That is the the right Iím wanting to protect. People shouldn't be ordered to do things they donít necessarily agree with because someone else said itís right.

There is so much conflicting info being circulated that people need to educate themselves and make choices that are right for them verses blindly following the masses. Every situation is different and the variables are abundant so one blanket rule does not and should not apply to all.
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Old 04-17-2020, 05:20 PM
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Here is a scenario for you to consider: Let's say you go to the grocery store unmasked, and there is a person standing in line behind you (also unmasked and not standing far enough away from you). That person sneezes in your face and you go home and carry on as usual. Then in about 5 days your healthy spouse becomes extremely ill. You bring him to the hospital but they're overloaded with other patients so your spouse doesn't get the treatment necessary and dies. How would you feel at that moment? Could you have done more to stop the spread? This is one of the reasons why the government is imposing these orders. This is why it's important to follow the orders.
Not that it makes a difference but I do understand what youíre trying to say and for what itís worth my husband isnít necessarily ďhealthyĒ per say...heís a type 1 diabetic. He spent 10 days in the ICU in 2018 due to Influenza. Almost killed him.

My daughter is a nurse who currently on day 10 of a 14 day quarantine because a patient coughed in her face while she was working a double shift on the COVID floor of her hospital. She was wearing PPE but the rules of the hospital say she must quarantine.

I am open and busy as a majority of my clients are tier 1 workers. I donít have a huge retirement account to fall back on, I NEED to work to live. The economy is an important factor that needs to be considered. It not just about protecting health as good health does you no good if there is nothing else.
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Old 04-17-2020, 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Red View Post
You are correct, we aren't just talking about NY. NY waited too long to take measures and that's why it got so bad here. Other states are learning from that mistake and taking measures before things get that bad. It is awful to see businesses go under and people going without any income. I am one of those people, but I am still doing my part to protect myself, my family and other people.

Here is a scenario for you to consider: Let's say you go to the grocery store unmasked, and there is a person standing in line behind you (also unmasked and not standing far enough away from you). That person sneezes in your face and you go home and carry on as usual. Then in about 5 days your healthy spouse becomes extremely ill. You bring him to the hospital but they're overloaded with other patients so your spouse doesn't get the treatment necessary and dies. How would you feel at that moment? Could you have done more to stop the spread? This is one of the reasons why the government is imposing these orders. This is why it's important to follow the orders.

I agree that we all must have rights but some people continue to make poor choices even when presented with facts against those poor choices.

Governors began all of this by giving guidelines and people had choices. From those choices, the virus kept quickly spreading and overwhelming the hospitals, so the state government took away the choices by making those guidelines into laws and enforcing them to better protect everyone.
Wrong. NY CITY didn't wait too long. NY city is an over populated, poverty stricken sardine packed human petri dish. That is WHY NY is having a problem. It has nothing to do with preparation.
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Old 04-18-2020, 05:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Valerie928 View Post
Wrong. NY CITY didn't wait too long. NY city is an over populated, poverty stricken sardine packed human petri dish. That is WHY NY is having a problem. It has nothing to do with preparation.
Holy cow! No, not wrong. I'm not referring to just NY City. The surrounding counties did wait too long. NY did wait too long to begin social distancing after the first known positive cases.

Yes, NYC is a densely populated area and that's why it traveled so fast through there.
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Old 04-18-2020, 05:56 AM
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And NYC's rate of hospitalization is decreasing because of the stricter measures the Governor is enforcing. The executive orders in place are beginning to slow the spread! It is working!
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Old 04-18-2020, 07:49 AM
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Texas is slowing opening up

BUT.....schools are closed for the remainder of the year
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Old 04-18-2020, 08:32 AM
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Can we just take a moment to pray for our brothers and sisters isolating in tiny 90sqft apartments in NYC? Holy cow they must have the mental stamina of a monk!!
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Old 04-18-2020, 08:54 AM
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Can we just take a moment to pray for our brothers and sisters isolating in tiny 90sqft apartments in NYC? Holy cow they must have the mental stamina of a monk!!
Iíd be spending all my time on Zillow looking for somewhere else to live... lol!
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Old 04-18-2020, 01:26 PM
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IMO its too early for things to start opening back up. We are finally starting to get over the worst of it, and opening everything will just start it all back up again, and more people will die. I say we wait at least another month, get more people tested to see how bad things ACTUALLY are... and then, when the numbers are very low, start to open everything back up slowly.
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Old 04-18-2020, 02:27 PM
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IMO its too early for things to start opening back up. We are finally starting to get over the worst of it, and opening everything will just start it all back up again, and more people will die. I say we wait at least another month, get more people tested to see how bad things ACTUALLY are... and then, when the numbers are very low, start to open everything back up slowly.
There are millions of people in America. We will never know the true number of infected individuals, we have slowed the spread but it's temporary. We have to adapt and learn to live with the virus being around because it's not going to go away.
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Old 04-19-2020, 04:03 AM
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There are millions of people in America. We will never know the true number of infected individuals, we have slowed the spread but it's temporary. We have to adapt and learn to live with the virus being around because it's not going to go away.
I do agree with this statement but how does the population adapt and learn to live with this virus?

I think the government taking some of it into its own hands, such as mandating(and supplying!!) masks, etc. is the answer, because ultimately if people aren't forced into complying with healthier actions there are some who will never believe or learn; they will always deny, disregard, and test. Therefore, it's(the virus) going to continue to gain footing and destroy more than the economy. I completely understand how people feel about having their constitutional rights stripped away but where do you draw the line? Wearing seat belts and helmets have proven to save lives, as has buckling kids into car seats. Some people even balk at those decisions when it becomes mandatory by the government. No, I don't want to be told by the government what to do all the time. But when many people continue to make the wrong choices, leaving the rest of us in unhealthy dangerous situations, then something has to give. And I don't believe it should be giving us the choice of 'well, if we don't like it, then just stay home'. Not wearing a mask(or 100 other choices by other people) affects more than just me. It affects all who they come in contact with, all who *those* also come into contact with, and ultimately could trickle to health care providers, other places of employment etc., etc. And what about all those front-line workers who don't have a choice, they have to keep their job serving all those people that are making bad choices.

I'm wondering how the health care system will hold up under this crisis if it continues on? Will there be less doctors and nurses, less paramedics, hospital workers, etc. coming into the field due to fear? I know medical personnel could be switched from one facility to another but how many will want a job like that, where they are always taken from their families to work somewhere else?

There have got to be new laws, new regulations put into place, until our world catches up with this virus, can contain it, knows more about it, and can treat it like a 'normal' flu.

Our states gave us new regulations we had to follow, to work in daycare. Did it please us? HeLL no. But we did it. If the government can do that, then they should be allowed to change some of our current laws to prevent more catastrophe with this virus.

*sigh* just a bunch of discombobulated thoughts this a.m.
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Old 04-19-2020, 04:46 AM
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I feel like the people who are wanting to be on complete lockdown indefinitely, they must have the savings to not be able to work? Because a lot of people cant survive financially if we dont let them work. Im sorry, but if I lose my house, and my kids and I end up on the street hungry.. then thats a problem. Does that make me a bad person to care more about my kids than lives of people I dont even know?
Alcohol is legal, yet we dont care about all the lives we could save if we just ban it. Same with guns. Same with cigarettes. Combined, those have killed WAY more per year than this virus.
We allow people to take those risks everyday and I dont underStand why it took a virus for people to care about human lives.
I believe i already had this. In February I had a cough that lasted 4 weeks. I felt like I couldnt get any air and my lungs were filled with something. I had never been sick like that before. All the daycare kids got whatever this was as well, some were having wheezing and fevers. If this antibody test is real and we can actually get it, it will be interesting to see If I did.
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Old 04-19-2020, 07:25 AM
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The financial fallout is real and will get worse for families the longer the economy is closed. New York City is densely populated where people (literally) live on top of each other and crowded subways take people too/from work. It is necessary to close/reduce the economy here to save a significant number of lives; and to slow down the contagion to reduce the burden on an already strapped health care system including health care workers.
However, I don't know that the economy should close in sparsely populated or spread out areas where the virus is truly novel; except that people who live in dense areas will flee to sparse areas (which has been happening) especially those in which the economy is open which will keep the virus thriving.
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Old 04-19-2020, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Blackcat31 View Post
Iíd be spending all my time on Zillow looking for somewhere else to live... lol!
They are probably paying $8K a month for that space! I will never understand the appeal of living like that in NYC
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Old 04-19-2020, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by MomBoss View Post
I feel like the people who are wanting to be on complete lockdown indefinitely, they must have the savings to not be able to work? Because a lot of people cant survive financially if we dont let them work. Im sorry, but if I lose my house, and my kids and I end up on the street hungry.. then thats a problem. Does that make me a bad person to care more about my kids than lives of people I dont even know?
Alcohol is legal, yet we dont care about all the lives we could save if we just ban it. Same with guns. Same with cigarettes. Combined, those have killed WAY more per year than this virus.
We allow people to take those risks everyday and I dont underStand why it took a virus for people to care about human lives.
I believe i already had this. In February I had a cough that lasted 4 weeks. I felt like I couldnt get any air and my lungs were filled with something. I had never been sick like that before. All the daycare kids got whatever this was as well, some were having wheezing and fevers. If this antibody test is real and we can actually get it, it will be interesting to see If I did.
. You are absolutely right that this has been here since January, it just makes logical sense.
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Old 04-19-2020, 11:41 AM
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We can only do what we can do. We are neither Pelosi nor Trump. But this does reflect who we chose to be in positions of power and what they must do to mitigate the economic and personal destruction that is at hand.

I wrote 3 years ago on FB that there are now “two” truths. Both sides believe absolutely that they are right and that the other side is wrong/stupid/commies/nazis/(put your term of endearment here).

Many politicians are playing the blame game, vying for power and being downright destructive in “not” working with each other.

We had a Pearl Harbor type attack from something we were not prepared for, nor could have been be prepared for. In 1939 we knew there was a war already raging in the world. We then poked the Japanese Empire by blockading it’s need for oil. We were still unprepared for what happened next. The Japanese attacked and forced America to declare war. We continued to lose the Pacific campaign to the Japanese for another six months before turning the tide against them at Midway. It took that long even with a ”unified” country and manufacturing output at 100% for our newly created military industrial complex.

We are again in a world war and our inability to come together is what every adversary would hope for in destroying our country from within.

We’ve become so accustomed to the foundations that make this country exceptional that we expect those support pillars to be there for us, not understanding how fragile they are and how easily they could crumble under the wrong circumstances.

The economic destruction that ensues is going to become real if this country and the world don’t get back to some kind of normalcy soon. That’s when the bottom falls out. Civil unrest with such densely packed cities will cause real death.

I saw 300 M1 tanks being moved by train through my town toward Los Angeles a couple weeks ago. When people are fearful people become desperate.

We still have time to turn this around but it’s going to take Americans and the world to be fearless and to do what is needed. Help each other-compromise for each other.

Last edited by Michael; 04-19-2020 at 02:26 PM.
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Old 04-19-2020, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Valerie928 View Post
There are millions of people in America. We will never know the true number of infected individuals, we have slowed the spread but it's temporary. We have to adapt and learn to live with the virus being around because it's not going to go away.
I think that's the whole point of the social distancing/wear a mask in public advisories. The medical experts have advised us to do these things in order to slow the rate of infection so that our health care facilities don't get overwhelmed. It is meant to be a temporary step to save lives until medicines and vaccines can be developed to fight the virus so that we can get back to our normal lives.

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Originally Posted by dolores View Post
The financial fallout is real and will get worse for families the longer the economy is closed. New York City is densely populated where people (literally) live on top of each other and crowded subways take people too/from work. It is necessary to close/reduce the economy here to save a significant number of lives; and to slow down the contagion to reduce the burden on an already strapped health care system including health care workers.
However, I don't know that the economy should close in sparsely populated or spread out areas where the virus is truly novel; except that people who live in dense areas will flee to sparse areas (which has been happening) especially those in which the economy is open which will keep the virus thriving.
This is what was happening in MA. People from areas that had high rates of infections were fleeing to their vacation homes on Cape Cod - bringing the virus with them. The people who live on the Cape year round were concerned that these visitors would cause the health care system there to become overwhelmed. I think they ended up requiring people to quarantine themselves for 14 days when they arrived. Not sure how you enforce that, though.

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Originally Posted by Michael View Post
We can only do what we can do. We are neither Pelosi nor Trump. But this does reflect who we chose to be in positions of power and what they must do to mitigate the economic and personal destruction that is at hand.

I wrote 3 years ago on FB that there are now ďtwoĒ truths. Both sides believe absolutely that they are right and that the other side is wrong/stupid/commies/nazis/(put your term of endearment here).

Many politicians are playing the blame game, vying for power and being downright destructive in ďnotĒ working with each other.

We had a Pearl Harbor type attack from something we were not prepared for, nor could have been be prepared for. In 1939 we knew there was a war already raging in the world. We then poked the Japanese Empire by blockading itís need for oil. We were still unprepared for what happened next. The Japanese attacked and forced America to declare war. We continued to lose the Pacific campaign to the Japanese for another six months before turning the tide against them at Midway. It took that long even with a ĒunifiedĒ country and manufacturing output at 100% for our newly created military industrial complex.

We are again in a world war and our inability to come together is what every adversary would hope for in destroying our country from within.

Weíve become so accustomed to the foundations that make this country exceptional that we expect those support pillars to be there for us, not understanding how fragile they are and how easily they could crumble under the wrong circumstances.

The economic destruction that ensues is going to become real if this country and the world donít get back to some kind of normalcy soon. Thatís when the bottom falls out. Civil unrest with such densely packed cities will cause real death.

I saw 300 M1 tanks being moved by train through my town toward Los Angeles a couple weeks ago. When people are fearful people become desperate.

We still have time to turn this around but itís going to take Americans and the world to be fearless and to do what is needed. Help each other-compromise for each other.
I wish, as a nation and as a world, we would all take the politics out of this and work together. The virus knows nothing about compromise and it infects without regard to a person's political affiliation.

Rather than listen to the politicians, listen to the medical experts who are trying to educate themselves and the rest of us about this virus. Based on what they've learned, they are recommending that we social distance, wash our hands and wear masks out in public. (Yes, the policy on masks has changed. We've been told recommendations may change as new information about this virus becomes available. It's a small enough adjustment to make so I do it.) Since some states and individuals have refused to comply with those recommendations, recommendations and advisories have become mandates in some areas. People are still refusing to comply. The longer we refuse to listen and do what is recommended to slow the infection rate, the longer and faster it's able to spread. The longer it spreads, the longer we are told to stay in place and the faster the economy goes down the tank.

Maybe if instead of fighting the recommendations and mandates, we listened and complied, we could all get back to our normal lives and jobs sooner than later and the economy could get back on track that much sooner.

I liken it to my day care kids. I ask them to pick up their toys so we can go outside to play. They argue, stall, refuse to pick up, tell me they suddenly have to go to the bathroom, cry because they "don't want to!" and yell at me because, I'm "not the boss of them!" I tell them, "The faster you pick up your toys, the faster we can get outside. The faster we get outside, the more time you'll have to play." It takes forever some days; it's not fun to pick up. We finally get outside but not for as long as we all would have liked because of the time wasted arguing. Eventually, the group gets older and they get it. They clean up with cooperation and little to no argument....and we have a lot more time to play outside before lunch. Lately, I feel like screaming to the world, "For *&#$% sake! Could we all just pick up the *&$%ing toys and just get this done so we can all get outside and play again!
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Old 04-19-2020, 05:48 PM
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Maybe if instead of fighting the recommendations and mandates, we listened and complied, we could all get back to our normal lives and jobs sooner than later and the economy could get back on track that much sooner.
This virus will be with us from here on out like much the flu. I believe everyone will come in contact with it no matter how we isolate. We have to manage the propagation of it. The remedies, management and knowledge we gain will help us cope with its effects in order to live with it.
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Old 04-19-2020, 07:01 PM
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The remedies, management and knowledge we gain will help us cope with its effects in order to live with it.
That's a statement I can agree with.

No matter how we choose to deal with the current situation as individuals and no matter what decisions our elected leaders make in regard to fighting this virus, I sincerely hope we all stay as healthy as possible.
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Old 04-20-2020, 03:21 AM
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I don't understand something. Nothing new there. Up until this point, we've been allowed to leave our state borders and cross the river to go to Walmart, etc. We're talking small town America on both sides here and Walmart is a mere 17 miles away. There have been many police cars at the border watching, taking count maybe? But yesterday a woman was made to return home even though her trip to Walmart was to get a prescription filled so now she has to get an okay from her doctor.
Is the law different with all of your states' borders? I've seen nothing about not being able to cross over except for a sign that says you need to self-quarantine for 2 weeks after.
I know some areas are very strict about this and I understand they're trying to decrease the spread in this way but, unless I missed something, wouldn't they announce it somewhere? And how do they enforce an action like that; I'm thinking of all the secondary roads into the next state?

Some of what they're doing, seems to be un-doable and creates resources being taken away from other avenues that would clearly need them also. At one point, there were 3 state police cars at the border, watching, counting. There is so much confusion between such different rules, expectations, laws between states, etc. It leaves so many gaps. I read all of last week's local newspapers yesterday(got caught up) and I'm beginning to be swayed more to the side of reopening more(all the editorials made a lot of sense!). Safely, slowly, protectively, in an intelligent way to support the health of the individual along with supporting small business and the economy. There has GOT to be a compromise.
And yes, politics has got to stand aside for all of this. It has nothing to do with control and power. Covid-19 has all that at the moment.
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Old 04-20-2020, 06:47 AM
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I don't understand something. Nothing new there. Up until this point, we've been allowed to leave our state borders and cross the river to go to Walmart, etc. We're talking small town America on both sides here and Walmart is a mere 17 miles away. There have been many police cars at the border watching, taking count maybe? But yesterday a woman was made to return home even though her trip to Walmart was to get a prescription filled so now she has to get an okay from her doctor.
Is the law different with all of your states' borders? I've seen nothing about not being able to cross over except for a sign that says you need to self-quarantine for 2 weeks after.
I know some areas are very strict about this and I understand they're trying to decrease the spread in this way but, unless I missed something, wouldn't they announce it somewhere? And how do they enforce an action like that; I'm thinking of all the secondary roads into the next state?

Some of what they're doing, seems to be un-doable and creates resources being taken away from other avenues that would clearly need them also. At one point, there were 3 state police cars at the border, watching, counting. There is so much confusion between such different rules, expectations, laws between states, etc. It leaves so many gaps. I read all of last week's local newspapers yesterday(got caught up) and I'm beginning to be swayed more to the side of reopening more(all the editorials made a lot of sense!). Safely, slowly, protectively, in an intelligent way to support the health of the individual along with supporting small business and the economy. There has GOT to be a compromise.
And yes, politics has got to stand aside for all of this. It has nothing to do with control and power. Covid-19 has all that at the moment.
My DS lives in a city that is on the border. Many cross from one state to the other for work daily. He works across the border in the other state. His work told him he may get stopped at the border and asked why he was crossing over.

They didn't give him any type of pass or permit or anything; just warned him it could happen. I would assume since he is going to work, he'd be okay to cross but he said there are no police cars monitoring or watching the border crossing so ... I dunno...

I think it's probably smart to limit travel to any and all areas that aren't normal for you to be in, but with so many cities on the borders of states I can't see how it would be possible to continuously monitor them.

It would help if people simply acted with respect for others.
It's not hard to social distance, it's not hard to wash your hands regularly and basically not be so gross about sharing body fluids when sneezing/coughing etc...

Adults and kids shouldn't feel so comfortable touching everything all the time. Personal boundaries and hands off.

Seems so easy.

I am definitely hoping that if we learn anything from this whole mess it is those things.....those lost social etiquette rules we used to follow
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Old 04-20-2020, 10:36 AM
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Any other mask IS effective at lowering the spread if YOU are infected. That is the whole point. If you cough or sneeze your spray can go up to 10ft. That is not happening in a mask. The mask is not to protect you from Covid 19, itís to protect others from your germs. There are a ton of asymptomatic people spreading it because they donít feel sick.

I wish we had to wear masks all the time so flu germs didnít get all over stuff. I am beginning to relate to the Chinese culture of wearing them.
No, this is simply not true. My cough/sneeze is NOT properly contained in ANY MASK, except for an N95. Please look up the videos showing the spray through the masks. Joe down the street sporting a bandana, and therefor NOT covering his mouth is making it worse. Not me, refusing to use a damn mask.

SAVE THE PPE FOR HEALTH CARE PROFESSIONALS, please.

Cross contamination is RIDICULOUS. None of the average public uses masks or gloves correctly and they are spreading it worse than if they werent using anything.

I am also EXTREMELY low risk. Self isolating, one store/biweekly now, no one in my house is leaving home, my parents are now ALL working from home and ALL are now doing instacart, etc. Our spread is also not even NYC levels.
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Old 04-20-2020, 01:43 PM
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Meanwhile in Georgia: "restaurants, gyms, hair salons and more will all be allowed to open at the end of this week and beginning of next week."
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Old 04-20-2020, 02:40 PM
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15 pages of obits in the Boston Globe yesterday. I am just beside myself. My stepmom is an RN in an ICU here in MA and she is a Republican but wants to beat the protesters because of what she has seen at work. Direct quote "I took care of AIDS patients before it was even called AIDS. I have taken care of Ebola patients, swine flu patients and every other disease you can think of...I have never seen anything kill like this."
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Old 04-20-2020, 03:17 PM
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No, this is simply not true. My cough/sneeze is NOT properly contained in ANY MASK, except for an N95. Please look up the videos showing the spray through the masks. Joe down the street sporting a bandana, and therefor NOT covering his mouth is making it worse. Not me, refusing to use a damn mask.

SAVE THE PPE FOR HEALTH CARE PROFESSIONALS, please.

Cross contamination is RIDICULOUS. None of the average public uses masks or gloves correctly and they are spreading it worse than if they werent using anything.

I am also EXTREMELY low risk. Self isolating, one store/biweekly now, no one in my house is leaving home, my parents are now ALL working from home and ALL are now doing instacart, etc. Our spread is also not even NYC levels.
It is not logical that something in front of your face will not block a sneeze or cough. It may not block it 100% but it will block it from reaching up to 10ft which is the reach using nothing. All of the videos I have seen show that they do decrease particle spray by 1/3. Countries where masks were issued to its population are showing much less transmission than those who did not.

Anyway we will agree to disagree. Even the medical community is divided on this topic.
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Old 04-20-2020, 03:18 PM
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Meanwhile in Georgia: "restaurants, gyms, hair salons and more will all be allowed to open at the end of this week and beginning of next week."
The thing is, people can choose to open and people can choose to go. Same for childcare here. Some of us opened and some of us are still closed. Some people send their kids and some people choose to keep them home.
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Old 04-20-2020, 03:35 PM
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I am happy and thankful to live in a state where covid isn't bad. We never fully locked down, and many things are planned to begin reopening on May 1st.

My child care center re-opened today. My husband and I are trying to figure out when will be best to send our 4 year old back. I am less worried about coronavirus than most people I know, I think, but still am choosing to social distance.
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Old 04-20-2020, 03:41 PM
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The thing is, people can choose to open and people can choose to go. Same for childcare here. Some of us opened and some of us are still closed. Some people send their kids and some people choose to keep them home.
Oh, I get it. It was literally just announced when I posted that. No funding came through for average people. People need to go back to work. We can't wait on someone to come save us, we know no one is coming. History has taught us that well. All can open Friday.

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  #97  
Old 04-20-2020, 03:53 PM
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Annalee Annalee is offline
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Everything, with social distancing still in place, will open here by Friday.

I opened daycare back up today and sensed a "happy to be out" with my families....it needs to happen.

Sure, there will be some that make poor decisions but???

Oddly, Walmart began today making their employees wear mask???? Not sure why now, and not before?

I expected to have a rough day as it was my first day back after two weeks off, but it was wonderful....had 8 of my 12 kids......plus my child care grants were approved so waiting a few weeks to re-imburse my families for the last two weeks they paid me for but I know it's coming.
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Old 04-20-2020, 03:55 PM
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Michael Michael is online now
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The question is—do you have a choice? Freedom is choice, but responsibility to yourself and others blurs that line. I think we are at the point in this country where the federal and state agencies can manage the decisions of its people. Will there be more infection and death? Undoubtedly, yes. Those that are vulnerable or want to protect themselves, can stay safe at home. Those that want to go out and resume their previous lives, should have the freedom to do so. Will they be responsible and wear face masks and sanitize? Many will, and some won’t. Those that go out with protection will be better protected than those that don’t have protection. Some may already be immune or have a good immune system and won’t have any difficulty going about their normal lives and business.

Those that get infected, now have a much better chance of overcoming this disease than 4 weeks ago. We can manage this disease with exceptions. One size does not fit all. You can lose your life or lose your freedoms. That should be an individual decision. People that are careless and wrong will either learn of their decisions with sickness or death. Life teaches and those that are correct, stronger and more prepared will survive. It is a reward or punish teachable moment.
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Old 04-20-2020, 07:02 PM
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bklsmum bklsmum is offline
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I think everywhere in the US will be open by mid June at the latest and then I think we will have to shut down again by fall. I think in most major places kids will not be going back to physical school in the fall either. I think they will do remote learning from day 1 next school year. I know NY, MA, CA and TX are already talking about it .
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Old 04-21-2020, 02:32 AM
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Valerie928 Valerie928 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bklsmum View Post
I think everywhere in the US will be open by mid June at the latest and then I think we will have to shut down again by fall. I think in most major places kids will not be going back to physical school in the fall either. I think they will do remote learning from day 1 next school year. I know NY, MA, CA and TX are already talking about it .
You can't be serious. There is no way we can keep doing open up/shut down.
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