New baby started today, will be 11mos this weekend.

Mom dropped off we talked for a min and she left, I went to put all her stuff away and there was no formula. I texted mom and said "There is no formula" she said "No formula, juice juice or water"

There was a giant jug of juicy juice in the bag.

I don't give children juice. Flat out, period. My 3 and 4 year old maybe get it once every couple months.

She said that the child gets 2 bottles/cups of "milk" a day one in the AM when she wakes and one to go to bed. I know for a fact she is on WIC so she gets formula...

Is there a link to something I can print saying how many ounces of formula they need before age 1? I know that cows milk is fine after age 1, but is it ok for her to only have water all day? She is here until about 4pm.

I have a 9 month old here who gets his morning bottle here and then a lunch bottle. By those calculations I would be giving the 11 mo at least 1 cup of milk a day since they leave at about the same time. The 9mo gets here a little earlier than the 11mo...

ETA: I breastfed my children, so formula is new to me

HELP!

Oh and she also has the 11mo forward facing in the carseat (she is 15lbs) but I guess that is another battle *sigh*

Sounds like another example of a young parent?

I would probably ask her at pickup to supply the formula tomorrow. She might put up a fight, but I would mention with a smile that "We do formula here until age ___, then we do milk. The juice is for age ____. I base it on pediatric dietary guidelines."

I would also remind her about the car seat. I cannot stand when people are ignorant like that. It's a safety issue, for cryin' out loud lady! (not you )

Are you part of the food program? Go to the USDA.gov, Food and Nutrition, Child nutrition, Child and Adult Care Food Program then Meal Patterns and your info should be available there. At 11 mo the child should only get 2-4 oz of juice per day and only for snack.

Umm....the 11 month old only weighs 15 lbs?!??! That's absolutely, positively, not okay! The weight is a huge issue, the juice is a huge issue, and only *then* do I think about the car seat issue, which I am normally a gigantic extended RFing advocate, but that's NOTHING compared to a 15 lb 11 month old! That is far, FAR below even 5th percentile! That must be 0th percentile! Please, PLEASE tell me you mistyped that number!

Honestly, given her size and the fact that the mom wants her to have juicy juice (um, ew?) all day long...I would be a bit tempted to call CPS and speak to someone. That is a ridiculously small child who is most likely NOT getting adequate nutrition. I'd say, certainly not getting adequate nutrition. Definitely not getting adequate nutrition. I'm not sure that's really something CPS can intervene on, but I would at least want to make the call.

As for the formula issue, if I were you I would totally blame your state's regulations, "I'm sorry but by law I'm required to give every child under 1 year at least 16 (or 24, or something) fluid ounces of milk while they're here with me. Would you like me to buy the formula for an extra $x per week or would you like to bring it? And then pump that child full of as much nutritive stuff as you can while she's with you. Poor thing.

This is good, and if I were you, for the sake of this poor kid I would probably tell her that you do formula until 18 months. That child is seriously underweight and probably Failure to Thrive or suffering from malnutrition.

How are her milestones? Where's she at developmentally?

Here is the USDA Infant Meal Pattern http://www.fns.usda.gov/cnd/care/pro...l_patterns.htm

I was thinking the same thing. My kids were 10lbs at birth so a 15lb one year-old is a huge concern unless there is an underlying medical issue. If you are licensed, I am sure that your state requires a physical exam and shot records right? . Does the pediatrician have any notes on there about this child's weight? I wouldn't call CPS today, but I would definitely discuss with mom. Tell her that you REQUIRE formula for infants under a certain age and that you only make exceptions if you have a doctor's note. Print off something that shows her information for recommeded infant feeding patterns to support your policy.

I can't understand why she would NOT buy formula if she is on WIC.

First of all WIC gives out juice and I had my son on milk when he was 12 months. It is our jobs to watch these children, not be their parents, and if her mother wants her on milk, or juice, I don't feel it is any of my business to do otherwise. I had my son on baby cereal mat 3wks, another no no to modern day drs. Call me old school, but I think all these new guidelines are for the birds! I also never breastfed, and was told if I didnt he would have all kinds of ear infections..hog wash..

My son is now 14 1/2, and never had 1 single ear infection his whole life, and is was off the charts as far as growth goes.

I just dont see how you can override a parents wishes for what they want THEIR child on, unless it is abuse, and giving milk over formula, or juice, is not abuse. Just my opinions..

Sorry, but some kids are just small. Not saying that this child doesn't have issues because of the weird diet the mom has the child on. But my own child was 16 pounds at a year old. Perfectly healthy! I myself was tiny, and completely healthy. This is why I HATE broad statements like this. My children were teeny tiny, but completely healthy, and I would have hated to have people judge me because of it! How judgemental and wrong to call CPS on someone JUST because their children/child is small! That is just stupid!

15 lbs at 11 months is underweight, and the milk issue very well could be a factor. I wouldn't jump to malnourishment on the first day though.

My boys were drinking whole milk at 11 months with my pediatricitions approval, but the amount of juice vs. milk I would want to address. I would just sit down with mom and talk to her.

http://www.cdc.gov/growthcharts/data...l/cj41c018.pdf

I don't think I will be calling CPS, but I just want to address the issue with her.

I spoke to a close friend of hers who said this baby weighed 17lbs 3 mos ago, so she has lost 2 lbs over the last 3 mos.

I am going to print those guidelines to hand out in a newsletter along with the USAA carseat booklets I keep on proper carseat use...*sigh*

Legomom, this isn't a breast vs formula issue. I personally don't agree with anything you said you do, but I am not here to make issue with other peoples parenting. I just want to make sure this mom has the info she needs to properly nourish her child be it formula, or breastmilk. I would never give a child under 12 mos cows milk.

The child chowed down at lunch, mom sent a jar of stage 3 fruit so we gave her that AND a jar of stage 3 dinner we had and she ate it all, and has been scavengering for food from the other childrens lunch too...I feel bad.

I will mention to mom that I am going to start supplying YoBaby for the infants for breakfast along with oatmeal and fruit, so at least there is some dairy also.

I think that all these things should always be discussed before the child enters the daycare.....Don't you discuss feeding and such at interviews? I tell all my parents at interviews, that I do Milk/Formula and water only, That I dont serve juice in my daycare.......So for the juice I would say that Its not fair to the other children that aren't aloud juice for the baby to have it all day, and I would say that I serve plenty of fruit, so juice isn't a necessity, Now I think that at 11 months, its okay to introduce whole milk if the child is ready, I dont think this child would be ready though, with how little she is, I breastfed solely, but at 11 months, I started introducing whole milk slowly, she is obviously completly ignorant, And I would say that with the food program, until shes 1 you have to do formula.......... maybe suggest enfagrow......so stupid, she gets it with WIC anyways Geesh!

That is the thing Jewels, I did discuss this at interview! I asked her if she was breast or formula and she said formula and that she gets 2 bottles a day and the rest is sippy cup. I ASSumed that she ment she got formula during the day in a sippy and formula in a bottle breakfast/dinner, which sounded normal for 11mos. It wasnt until today the juice bombshell got dropped. It states in my handbook about how I don't do juice except as a treat for toddlers and how I don't do solids before 6 mos, I also told her (and itis in the HB) that they need to send a can of formula every monday until they are 1...

I texted her earlier and mentioned that I forgot to tell her I supply breakfast of YoBaby and oatmeal and she said that was fine.

I am going to tell her this afternoon to send a can of formula to keep here. I hate confrontation! UGH!

Oh and this child is very smart and well past milestones, by her behavior etc you would think she was 18mos. She is tall and skinny, which I would absolutely think is normal (My oldest was EBF and only 18lbs at age 1 but 30+ inches tall, he is now 4 and 37lbs 46 inches tall) if it wasnt for the juice issue. I understand wic provides juice but I dont think they mean for it to be the sole nutrition during the day when they provide formula for them also...

Do you think that there is a chance the family is strapped for money or the old provider wasn't feeding properly? That much weight loss that fast makes me think that something pretty drastic happened recently. I feel sorry for the little girl, she is obviously hungry. I would start giving her cheerios, toast, etc to help her fill her belly if I were you.

well, mom has stayed home with her since birth, and is going back to work now. My other daycare parent is friends with her and said things are tight for them, and they have 3 other SA kids...

Well my daughter went from being in the 90th percentile as a baby and she dropped all the way to the 10th percentile at her 12 month check, from walking and such.. I have never seen anyone giving juicy juice all day to a baby, and not even watering it down, I hate confrontation also, So I would be as nice as possible......dont make it sound like shes a bad parent, just that none of the other children get juice, because you do lots of fruit during the day, and you just can't give it to the baby, and the food program says that you have to give her formula or breastmilk until 12 months, and after that you do milk and water.
And How can she not have the monry for formula when she gets it through WIC, that is what the money from wic if for.

First of all, I did not mean my comment about breat feeding to be about a debate. I was using that as a example along with what all these modern day drs say about dont give formula, dont give cereal, etc etc, and I dont agree with it all!!

Is is a liscensing requirement that you only serve formula and no juice? If not, I feel you are overstepping your boundaries. You cannot make a parent give something to a child just because YOU want too. You are not the parent of this child. You have no idea what things have been discussed between mother /dr of her baby. If she wants her baby on milk, so what? Many people put their babies on milk before 12 months. And what is soo bad about juice? You are treating it as if it was soda or something. WIC gives out juicy juice! There is nothing wrong with 100% juice!

I also agree some kids are just smaller, and healthy. I feel you are judging this parent because she does do things the way YOU would do them, and I dont agree with that. I was only 5lbs when I was born, and I was not a premie. I was small and healthy, and thats the way I was my whole life. It is not your job to parent these kids. They have parents, and as long as there is no abuse going on or they are denying her food or milk, you are being way too judgemental. nd to ask her friend questions about their financial status, is also over stepping your boundaries. There financial situation or their other kids is really none of your business.And the fact that they are on WIC has nothing to do about milk or formula, or what she can afford, because WIC gives you milk or formula along with juice and baby cereal.

lego mom, you are totally missing the point. I am not trying to mother this child, I am trying to make sure mom has the information she needs to properly parent this child.

*deleted the rest because now my mind is boggled*

I know that some kids are just small, BUT, if you look at a growth chart, 15 lbs at 11 months is far, FAR below the lowest percentile line...with is 5th percentile. I KNOW that some kids have to make up the bottom of the percentiles--but as a provider I need to know why the child is so very FAR below normal--if there's an underlying issue, if it's genetics, etc. You being tiny and then your child being tiny--that's fine. As long as there's not an underlying issue.

It would be very alarming to me as a provider--in charge of the child for the majority of their waking hours--to have such a small child PLUS a parent telling me not to give formula and to give instead nutritionally devoid juice. I would bring it up to the parent, definitely. I would also be *thinking* about CPS--just to cover my bases. As providers we are mandated reporters and as far as I know, that includes neglect, too. IMO, not feeding a proper diet/not following up with the doctor on such drastic weight loss in such a short time are both forms of neglect.

We aren't parents, but we are care providers. We are required to provide proper care for these children, and sometimes as providers we are going to be the only ones who know something's not right.

But that IS my point: Who says she isn't parenting her child properly? YOU are judging her and you are trying to tell her what she should or shouldn't do. You are not the parent. I'm sure you have good intentions, and you care about the child, but you are coming across to me anyway, judgemental and you want her to raise her baby the way YOU want to. Thank you for caring for this baby, but I just feel you need to step back. Thats all.

I serve juice (50/50 water) at am snack, and that's it, period. I did have a drop-in parent bring a can of apple juice for their child. I thanked them politely, and added it to my pantry supply . Their child got the exact same drinks as the rest of the kids did, when the rest of the kids did (milk at meals, 50/50 juice at am snack, water at the two pm snacks).

I'm very much in favour of letting the parents determine what their child should be eating and when, as long as it fits with my routine & standards of nutrition. What they do at home is completely up to them.

I think you're entirely within your rights to let the parent know what your standards are. If she doesn't like it, she can always pump the poor kid full of juice in the evenings. That said though, I don't think it's necessarily cause for calling the CPS.

The carseat issue though ... that's a different matter. You could always broach it from a buddy perspective -- as in "I noticed you've got --- forward-facing. I've heard the ticket is $*** if you get pulled over! I wouldn't want you to be stuck with a fine like that ..."

I agree there is a line, but proper nutrition is not that line.

If this mom is on WIC, they will be on top of her child's weight ALL THE TIME-to the point of going overboard. I also had one child of my own that was small, and even with a note from the Dr. saying she was ok, they still got on me about it EVERY TIME I picked up my coupons. WIC really tries to make sure kids are eating what they are supposed to, and mom's need to answer a TON of questions about what their babies eat. She does get juice from WIC, so she's hearing from nurses that it is a healthy option if it's 100% juice. You could let her know you think her child needs more formula, but I certainly don't think her child is being neglected in any way. By 11 months, most of the child's calorie intake should be from solid foods anyhow.

She's getting milk and juice!! That is not neglect or improper nutrition!!

Lego,
I read the original statement to say the OP has her own way of running things, and the problem is the universal "parent that wants you to change your program to tailor to her needs". We all vent on here about those parents. I didn't get any judgement from the original post whatsoever. I got the feeling she is concerned but did not put the mother down, just wanted a link to see if there was cause for her concern.
I agree with Quncy, I want to know if my children are OK, and if not (they land on the bottom 5th percentile, for instance) I wouldn't hesitate to look into it. If that makes me judgemental, then I guess I'm 'guilty'.

Don't assume that the weight is a huge problem. My daughter was only 14lbs 14oz at her 12 month appt. She was very small (obviously) and has hypotonia, but no reason was ever found for her extremely low weight. She is now 22 months and just now 20 lbs. Drs are not worried. So, as long as mom has a physical on file and knows that a doctor is aware of her weight and monitoring it, then no reason for daycare provider to be concerned.

Yes, it is a concern that mom is recommending juice all day, but it's more of an 'educating the parent' issue and not a CPS issue. Hopefully OP has a physical on file and knows that a doctor is monitoring.

I agree with what you said about using state regs to indicate how much formula the child needs to be getting.

I absolutely agree with you here. It is not our job to parent the child, and it doesn't sound like that's what you're trying to do. BUT, as you said it can be our job to educate the parent on what the recommendations are. Or at least talking to the parent and seeing what her thought process is regarding giving her child juice all day. I've had several parents that didn't understand the nutrient value was soooo much lower for juice than for milk/formula.

It may just be that her child drinks the juice better and if she thinks the nutrient value is the same then that could be her reasoning. As child care providers it is our job to be educated on what is safe and healthy for child and to do hat's best for them, which in this case means talking to the mom.

I forgot to address the carseat issue. As a mandated reporter, this is something that needs to be addressed. I personally prefer to address it with the parent and see if they are willing to change it before I call CPS. It could be a lack of education or it could be that she's turned forward with doctor's permission for medical reasons. So, I would have a gentle discussion with her about how the child is positioned. If, she doesn't turn her around I would not hesitate in calling CPS. It is child endangerment and that child could be seriously injured or killed because of the choice that this mother has made.

I've had to have this discussion with parents multiple times (including one VERY mad dad, who changed his tune once I showed him the exact law posted on the bulletin board). This is not something I would waiver on.

Good luck!

But to jump to, let's call CPS, is a joke. We are here to provide care for the kids, not bring unjust investigations on the parents.

I don't think two pounds of weight loss is that big of a deal. It is quite common when young children go from crawling, to walking/running, that they lose a bit of weight. I could understand it being a concern if it was a significant amount of weight, but two pounds is very minimal.

On the milk issue, without knowing all of the facts, you cannot really assume that the parent is not properly caring for her child. Her pediatrician may very well have recommended or approved the child to move to cows milk. The juice may be to provide additional calories. If the juice is causing the child to not eat, because she is filling up on juice, then that I would be concerned about, but otherwise, if Mom wants to give juice, then that's her choice. That doesn't mean you have to provide/offer it to her at daycare, but I don't think it is neccessarily something to be concerned about.

Now, it is certainly okay to discuss this with Mom, in a non-confrontational way. Let her know, based on your training, that you feel her daughters diet is lacking in some areas and you are a bit concerned about dcg diet and would like to better understand her reasoning for the milk and juice.

On the carseat issue, why not pass out a flyer to all families about proper usage of carseats? This way, it's simply providing information for all of the parents, without seeming accusatory. You may even be able to have the highway patrol come to your program to provide a carseat installation demonstration and they will properly install all of the children's seats in their parents cars. You can do that here, not sure about where you live though.

As a nurse, formerly at a family practice clinic, a 2 lb weight loss is significant when your talking about an infant. That is a 12% weight loss in a 2 month period. It is not uncommon for infants to stay the same for short periods of time or to gain weight slower once they become mobile, but a 2 lb weight loss suggest something else is going on. I myself, am a mother to a small child. My daughter just turned 3 and is only 26 lbs dressed. She started off in the 50th percentile and dropped steadily, not abruptly. Our pediatrician keeps an eye on her. There are many things that can cause weight loss in a child of this age including dietary deficiencies, lead exposure, metabolic and skeletal problems.

As far as how to deal with this mother, I do not know what the right approach is. I understand your concerns and would be concerned myself if I were in the same situation. Does the child go for regular well child checks? Hopefully so, and the child can be checked out. We do lead checks and a CBC on all 1 year olds here to look for any abnormalities. It sounds to me like this mother is unaware of current rcommendations when it comes to both feeding and travelling with an infant. Good luck.

I would just be matter of fact about it. Say something like we have a no juice policy here. Water is always offered for thirsty children but please send two bottle or sippies of formula tomorrow. Also say after she ate her 2 jars of babyfood she was still super hungry .....please send a third jar tomorrow.
With your loving attention I am sure that you will fatten her up nicely.

I don't think two pounds of weight loss is that big of a deal. It is quite common when young children go from crawling, to walking/running, that they lose a bit of weight. I could understand it being a concern if it was a significant amount of weight, but two pounds is very minimal.



Wow that is not only incorrect but actually dangerous. Not only is a two pound weight loss between the eigth to eleventh month VERY VERY VERY significant... the child should be GAINING an average of THREE pounds during this time. PLEASE PLEASE look at the clinical growth charts and see what the AVERAGE child does during this time frame. Even at the lower percentiles for the AVERAGE child who is crawling to walking and running they GAIN weight during this time. Remember that nearly ALL children being assessed for height and weight are doing this (mobile) developmentally so the this IS already factored into the clinical assessment.

http://www.cdc.gov/growthcharts/data...l/cj41l068.pdf

That doesn't mean you have to provide/offer it to her at daycare, but I don't think it is neccessarily something to be concerned about.

Crystal this child is not even ON the growth charts for weight it's SO low. The baby would have to be at 16 pounds to even BE in the third percentile. Of COURSE it's something to be concerened about.

A parent can NOT give you permission to do the wrong thing. They do NOT get to decide whether or not a provider gives a baby formula. They can decide what BRAND of formula but they can NOT decide to give them juice INSTEAD of formula. If milk is to be served BEFORE the first birthday the BEST PRACTICE (as you know since you are a TEACHER and a MENTOR) is to get a physicians note documenting that the child CAN have milk as a substitute for formula.

A baby who presents so UNDERWEIGHT and having lost 12 percent of her body weight in the last three months and who should be INCREASING her body weight by approximately EIGHT percent during that three month window would NEVER be prescribed this by a doctor.

No clinician in their RIGHT MIND would EVER reccommend this for this child. No one with experience and education on the BASIC growth and development would EVER reccommend this for a child who is LOOSING weight at such a significant rate at this time of infancy.

Okay I jumped in a little late in the game here but from what I got from the original post here is that DCM gives her child of 11 mo two bottles of milk a day. I'm going to assume that because it says "bottles/cups" that this means a cup of milk each time and I'm going to assume that this means they are giving infant cereal as well.

According to the USDA food guidelines for an 11mo this is what the child should be getting
Breakfast:
6-8 oz of milk
2-4 tablespoons of infant cereal &
1-4 tablespoons of fruit or veggies or both

Lunch:
6-8 fluid ounces of formula or breast milk
2-4 tablespoons of infant cereal1 ; and/or
1-4 tablespoons of meat, fish, poultry, egg yolk, cooked dry beans or peas; or
½-2 ounces of cheese; or 1-4 ounces (volume) of cottage cheese; or 1-4 ounces (weight) of cheese food or cheese spread; and
1-4 tablespoons of fruit or vegetable or both

Supper:
6-8 fluid ounces of formula or breast milk
2-4 tablespoons of infant cereal1 ; and/or
1-4 tablespoons of meat, fish, poultry, egg yolk, cooked dry beans or peas; or
½-2 ounces of cheese; or 1-4 ounces (volume) of cottage cheese; or 1-4 ounces (weight) of cheese food or cheese spread; and
1-4 tablespoons of fruit or vegetable or both

Snack (USDA food program recommends 2 snacks)
2-4 fluid ounces of formula1 or breast milk or fruit juice; and
0-½ bread
0-2 crackers

When I was on the USDA food program you could substitute the fruit/veggie with 100% fruit juice (the kind that WIC allows) so I'm going to count the juicy juice as fruit since it's 100% fruit juice. If all they are giving the child is milk and infant formula at home and all they want you to give the child is juice and water while she is with you that would mean that everything in red is missing from the childs daily recommended meal intake (although we don't know if they are feeding the infant other foods as well).

You can always print out the infant portion of the guidelines in it's entirety and only point out the meals that infant is in your care for to show them that this is what you will give the infant and let them take it home with them. When they're at home they can see that the child's day should consist way more than just juice and water without you making them feel confronted etc. According to these recommendations you should be giving 1 more 8oz bottle during daycare hours with iron fortified infant cereal and this they should provide.
It's the same link as was posted ealier
http://www.fns.usda.gov/cnd/care/pro...l_patterns.htm

Yes as a RN and a child care provider I agree. This is basic fundamental 101 child development. Infants should not LOOSE weight over a three month period of time. They should gain weight. Even WITH all the mobility that comes during this time they should still be gaining weight. Even the lowest percentile infants (including factoring in mobility) GAIN weight during this time.

My children never lost weight. They always gained, and stayed on their own curve. This just hits a nerve. Of course, now we are learning that she is doing some weird things as far as nutrition. But to judge someone solely on the fact that their child is small is assinine! My kids were in the -5th percentile until they were almost 18 months old! My oldest was walking at 7.5 months and was 12 pounds!!! And in a size 2 infant shoe! Teeny tiny. I say talk to the mom, see where she is getting her information from. Maybe it is just not knowing better.

Is it possible she's still breastfeeding any doesn't want her to have anything else until Mom can nurse her?

I had a drop in 11 mo a couple months ago and when I asked if there was formula in the bag Mom looked shocked and said "no, just feed her regular food and water"... I was like ... ok ...

Then when she picked up I heard Mom say to her "I bet you're dying for a milk cuddle aren't you?"

Also, when I weened my dd at 9 months she wouldn't take formula. Absolutely wouldn't. She wouldn't even take breast milk from a bottle or cup. She got into one of her little friends' bottles with milk in it and just loved it so we put her right on milk at that point. No, it's not the greatest thing int he world for them at that point, I realize that, but as long as she doesn't react badly to it I wouldn't worry. They say in a lot of places between 9-12 months is fine to start introducing cow's milk.

Nvm I just noticed how late I came in lol ... sorry! Off to read the thread lol

After re-reading the original post....is it possible Mom means formula when she says "milk" and is perhaps weining her from formula and only wants her to have water or juice during the day? Just curious, as you didn't say she specifically stated that she doesn't use formula. It seems a parent who is receiving WIC benefits would be educated about proper nutrition. Or, at least they should be, that IS the point of the whole program.

Most likely explanation is that she is not getting enough formula cans to cover the child's needs over the month. This begins to happen around the six to seventh month. There is a surplus of formula during the first six months and too little the last six months.

The Mom is either keeping the formula to use when she has the baby (it's easy and it is filling to the baby) and doesn't want to spend money to buy the cans to cover her during day care OR

she's switched her to milk and is selling the formula. If the baby has had a period of months with milk instead of formula she may have pernicious anemia. It's important to find out exactly WHAT she is drinking and how much. At her age, tall stature, and low low weight she should definitely still be on formula and her diet needs to be planned accordingly to make sure she is getting the upper limits of the ranges of each food group as long as she will take them (poster says she eats well).

If she is getting WIC she is getting formula until and thru the month of the first birthday. The only exception would be a breast feeding Mom who is taking the WIC food for the Mom instead of the formula. If she is doing this then she needs to supply the breast milk.

Either way it's breast milk or formula for the next five weeks at least. An extension on the formula could take her into month twelve thru fifteen. If she attended here I would ask the Mom to ask for the extension now and if WIC didn't provide or couldn't provide due to budget constraints then I would offer to purchase it myself with a Dr's reccommendation. It would be worth it to me to make sure she got the most caloric dense foods and liquids until her weight came at least within twenty percent or so of her height.

This is really getting out of hand...nobody said this baby has lost weight...now people are accusing the mother of selling her formula for money..that she doesnt have any money for formula so she is replacing it with juice..Since when is juice POSION?? The OP is asking her clients friends question about their financial status...I mean come on, some of you are crucifying this Mom!! I can't believe stuff like this goes on! I am soo glad I never had to use a DCP, because I would hate to think that the person I was PAYING to watch my son, was controling what he ate & drank without knowing OUR BACKGROUND and disregarding MY RULES for MY OWN CHILD. Serously, who do you think you are? How many of you follow the recommedations for oyurselves? Who drinks 8 full glasses of water per day, 3 servings of veggies per day etc etc..Most of you have stated that you are even to busy to eat linch, an dyet you want this mom to follow everything precisely the way govt suggests??? My son was a VEY PICKY EATER and still do this day will not eat veggies or meat. He is extremely healthy. Just because th s kid is getting juice and milk does not mean this mom should be reported! Get off you high horses and mind your own business. You are being paid to watch their kids, not be their nutritionist and certainky not to judge someone else who does things differently than you would. I had my son on a sippy cup at 7 months...I'm sure if he had gone to you, you probably would have poured his drink into a baby bottle because YOU didnt agree! You are not the parents of these kids and I really think you ar eover stepping your boundaries. If I was that mother, I would drop you as my DCP immediatley!

"Get off you high horses and mind your own business. You are being paid to watch their kids, not be their nutritionist and certainky not to judge someone else who does things differently than you would."

As a daycare provider in the state that I live in, it is your responsibility to be an ADVOCATE for the children you care for. If that means providing a mom with information that may help her make better decisions regarding her childs health and safety, then there is nothing wrong with that. Also, as a member of the government food program, I am NOT going to break the rules and serve excessive amounts of juice in place of formula or milk. I DO follow the rules because I care about these kids and if I had a parent become upset because I offerred advice, and that parent didnt like it, then they are free to leave and at least I know that I have done my job as far as speaking up and looking out for the best interest of the child.

From the OP:

I'm not sure why there is any question about formula vs. juice. If this dcp is on the food program, she cannot get credit for meals if she's not feeding formula at EVERY meal (unless there is a dr. note saying that baby can't have formula). Hmmm....that tells me that infants must be on formula or other supplement until they are 1 year or have a doctor's note saying differently. It has nothing to do with dcp trying to take over and "parent" this child - it's the way it's supposed to be!

Do you know for a FACT the friends wasn't just estimating the weight or that she even knows this to be true? Does she have a copy of the Drs records? Do you even know how much of a friendship they really have? Just because a "friend" says this or that, does not make it so! I'm saying there are no FACTS that show that the child lost weight!

And if the only reason why you want a kid to have formula over milk that the PARENTS of the child want it to have is because of MONEY from the food program, that is pretty selffish to me. Oh my, lets not get ripped off by a few cents here and there...I wonder if you would still care about the milk if you were not on the food program? Lets face it, it's the child you are worried about, it's the money!

Maybe you also should report WIC for giving out JUICE for heavens sake... It's not RAT POISON ya know!

Bottom line is you are judging this woman on her first day of care with NO FACTS!

Hear Hear! I totally agree! Unless it comes to a situation of legally defined abuse, how a person parents is none of our business. I will feed a child as best I can while they are in my home, but I don't think it's any of our business to pretend we're the experts when it comes to someone else's child. I have had experience caring for what I believe was an undernourished 2 year old. I fed her as much fruit, veggies and whole grains as I could while she was in my care. But it was none of my business what she was eating outside of my care, unless her parents were not feeding her at all, or feeding her poison. Seriously. None of my business. We're being paid to do a job -- not to take over a parent's job.

Well, arent you judging those of us who are trying to be advocates for this child? You are judging us by saying all we care about is the money not this childs health and wellbeing. It is not because of money, lol. Do you seriously think that juice has more nutritional value than formula or milk? I follow the requirements because that is what is best for the child. I seriously could care less about the reimbursement as it is not much. And no, I dont have a problem with juice at all. I give my own 3 children juice, BUT ONLY AFTER they have drank an adequate amount of milk for the day. What crazy mom would want to fill their child up with juice when you can offer them something that is nutritionally BETTER?

I understand your problem with the friend stating that this child has lost weight, however, even if there was not weight loss, she is still underweight. Do you understand that? Yes, some children are small, I have one myself. I was constantly asking the provider how much she ate, how much she drank, and most importantly, she was supplied with formula and anything else that I thought would benefit my daughter nutritionally. As a mother I would not have wanted my daycare provider to give my daughter juice when she should have been getting formula. And, as a matter of fact, my pediatrician increased the amount of formula she wanted my daughter to have to try to increase her weight.

The bottom line is that there is nothing wrong with looking out for this child and talking to her mother to make sure the mother is educated about her childs nutritional needs. If the mom provides the daycare provider with a medical reason why this girl needs juice in place of the formula then it wont be an issue anymore. Maybe this mom will appreciate the providers input or maybe this mom is just naive, as naive as you, lol.

Well, it's a new day. Did you address this with mom at pick up time? What did she say? Does she actually use formula and uses the word "milk"? Did you tell her that a friend of hers has been feeding you information, about her parenting, and you want to find out if the second hand information you have been provided is accurate? Personally, if I was your client, and found out that you were getting this info from a "friend" of mine, I'd question your integrity as my provider and respecting confidentiality. I'd also be questioning the "realness' of my friendship with said "friend".

And, yeah, for the most part, what legomom said.

On another note, why didn't you and mom have a discussion at enrollment abou what child eats/drinks and who supplies it? Being an infant, this should certainly have been discussed BEFORE she was left in your care.

I'M not worried about the money OR the child, this isn't MY dck. I only brought up the food program because if THEY say the child needs formula (and they go by the gov't food standards) then THEY must know a little something about the nutritional needs of children! You are right - a FEW CENTS is all we get, so that's obviously not the reason I would even bring it up.

I have an 11 1/2 month old and mom recently switched to milk. I give him milk. I don't have a problem with that. He's thriving. The doctor is on board with giving him milk. I also have a 15mo dcb who has lost a few pounds in the last few months and his doctor IS concerned about it. And he is by no means scrawny, but doctors tend to be concerned when children lose weight for no apparent reason.

No one said juice is poison. The argument here is that the doctors/WIC/food program people know a heck of a lot more than we do and many parents do - and THEY all deem that kids need formula until they are 1 (unless for some reason they can't, or don't need it, as in closer to age 1). The big problem is that mom brought JUICE and said JUICE or WATER only - no milk or formula at all!!! They need one or the other!

All the above posts are EVERYTHING I said in this thread. Somehow words keep getting put in my mouth.


Crystal, wow, seriously, you make me sound like the worlds worst provider for asking for guidelines for infant nutrition! I did not ask her friend for info on the child that friend was told by DCM that I was watching baby and she (with moms permission) came to see baby, that is when her weight came up in the convo and the finances. I never ASKED for the information.

If you read MY posts you would see I DID discuss this with the mom before enrolling.

Next time I have questions I will be sure NOT to ask them here...ugh

If she is getting milk/formula in the morning at home, and at dinner at home and maybe before bed at home, and all she is getting is 2 say 4oz servings of juice during the day, I wouldnt call that "filling up" on juice, It's not like kids sit there and drink the whole day long. I see nothing wrong with a cup of water, which is also very good for the body and some juice!

I'm amazed my kids lived...and I'm not in jail for child abuse/neglect because I gave my baby juice!

My apologies...I did not see this post. So, Mom does give the child formula, not milk. Sounds to me that she is probably working towards weaning her from formula, which, at 11 months is typical. I'd tell Mom that I am not serving juice, that she can do that at home and let her know that she needs to have at least one bottle/cup of formula a day. I'd offer water the rest of the time. OR, ask for a Doctor's note with specific recommendations.

Once a thread gets this long, it becomes irresistable to those who don't bother to read the whole thing in context to comment on it.

That being said,
To the original poster:

Some people think that it is OK to give the child whatever the parent wants, regardless of the gut feeling you have about whether or not it is good for the child.

Other people think that you are right in being concerned for this child, and that the little information you have to go on is enough to follow up with.

Yet others think you are a yellow-bellied Juice Hater!

Personally, I say thank you for trusting the various opinions on this forum, and I hope that we didn't scare you off. It was a good question, I hope it was answered for you in a way that settles the issue.

Thatgagirl,

Don't sweat it. You are right.

Here's the deal. Once a parent takes their child out into public (and we ARE their public) and leaves any aspect of the care of the child to someone else they immediately loose a LOT of the "rights" they believe they have.

Once someone else is a PART of their decisions and the one who carries OUT their decisions... that person becomes liable. So the provider and the State who regulates home child care have accountability to make sure that parents are not allowed to give permission to the provider to do the wrong thing.

My State for example has it in their code that both registered and unregistered child care homes MUST follow the Federal Food Program guidelines even if you are NOT participating in the Federal Food Program. Here is the exact wording: Regular meals and mid-morning and mid-afternoon snacks shall be provided which are well balanced, nourishing, and in appropriate amounts as defined by the USDA Child and Adult Care Food Program.

So the parent looses the ability or right to decide in my State WHAT the child is offered in this situation. She simply doesn't get to decide. USDA says we MUST serve formula and/or breast milk with both meals and that infants under the age of one are free fed formula or breast milk.

This is only one example of litterally HUNDREDS of examples wherein a parent can not decide what a provider does with their child. The most the parent can do is find a provider with as close to their viewpoints as possible but the parent can NOT ask the provider to do something that is the wrong thing simply because they are the parent of the child. As soon as the parent hands over ANY of the care of the child both the State, the provider, AND the providers insurance company have a vested interest and liability in the care of that child.

In my child care parents actually have very little to decide. I offer what I offer and they can not influence the VAST majority of what I offer solely based upon the child being their child. I do not "do as I'm told". I do what is right and good. They can either choose that for their child or they can find another care arrangement that fits their ideal of what they want.

I decide the schedule. The parents do not influence the schedule in any way.
I decide the meals. The parents do not influence the meals in any way.
I decide activities. The parents do not influence the activities in any way.
I decide the sleep/rest schedule. The parents do not influence this in any way.

I know what is best for their child in my care. I decide. You know what is best for this baby while in YOUR care. You decide.

You are doing great. Just be firm on what you can and can not offer and let her choose whether or not this is the right fit for her.

Your clients are your employeers..They are HIRING you to work for them, and that work involves taking care of their child. Since when does a employee call the shots? What gives you the right to DECIDE all these things for someone elses kids? If I came to you and said we are vegitarians, DO NOT give my child meat, I would expect you to follow my orders and NOT give my child meat! I don't care what is on your list to feed my child, you had better listen to me the parent! If I don't want you to give my child cookies, I would expect you to listen and not give cookies behind my back just because you think you have the right to DECIDE what MY child should have! You can be hired and you be FIRED by famlies!

I am soo glad I never had to use daycare for my kids!

Thank you NannyDe

I went over the handbook again with mom, because it is VERY specific to my policies on food. I am very very strict on food that is consumed here, no juice, no junk, very little processed. Most people pick me BECAUSE of this, which is why I have never dealt with this. I also only have breastfed infants, and breastfed my own. Formula is VERY new to me. When I asked my question it was because I didnt know how many ounces/cups etc, and I wanted to see the guidelines.

Things have been settled. I will now provide all the food and drink for this child (since I normally do over 12 mos anyway) for an extra fee each week.

I won't go any further than that into what happened because I will prob just get chewed out again by a certain few...but it is settled.

I am NOT a Nanny. The parents are NOT my employer. Sorry.

Me not giving juice is NOT the same as giving a vegetarian meat or a child a cookie..I would never do those things anyway.

I don't agree that parents are hiring me as their employee. They aren't. I own a business and they are choosing to be my clients. My business has rules and regulations that I (and the state, etc) have setup and the parents and myself have to follow those rules. If a parent doesn't like my rules, then they are free to find another provider who's rules they like. But, I won't change my philosophy or how I run my business because of one parent (unless I see their point and think they're right).

If I was the parent's employees, they would be paying employee taxes, withholding, etc. And I wouldn't have business liability insurance

Sorry to hijack...

Good! I'm glad things got settled and you and mom were able to come to an agreement. It always feels good to have a difficult discussion with a parent that comes out okay. Nice job.

Thatagirl, please dont let some of the responses to this thread keep you from posting questions in the future. That is what forums like these are for and there will always be disagreements unfortunately. I think you sound like a very caring caregiver and that you are looking out for the best interests of this little girl. I too am glad that you and the mom got things worked out.

Your clients are your employeers.. Man I wish that was right. Tell the IRS they are my employers so they can pay their part of my social security and give the Nan some unemployment benefits when they decide to jump ship. Wouldn't that be SO cool? Wouldn't it be GREAT if every time a client left that we could apply for 18 months worth of a portion of the pay. Oh man ... LegoMom .. if you were EVER right about ONE thing.. I wish this was it. I want it SO bad.

They are HIRING you to work for them, and that work involves taking care of their child.

I do not work for them. I offer a service and they decide if they would like to pay for that service. I decide who I will take. I don't have the situation you have.

I'm not taken advantage of ALL THE TIME! I don't have clients who always want everything for nothing...or who balk at my rates, I don't have clients that balk about my having paid holidays or vacations, or show up when ever they feel like it. I don't have clients that pay me when they feel like it and or balk at the late fee. I am self employed. I run this business and I decide. Their decision is whether or not to partake in my services NOT what services I offer.

If I came to you and said we are vegitarians, DO NOT give my child meat, I would expect you to follow my orders and NOT give my child meat! I don't offer vegetarian meals. I offer a fully organic, local, grass fed meat, chemical free diet. A parent that was a vegetarian would not hire me.

I don't care what is on your list to feed my child, you had better listen to me the parent! NOPE I offer what I offer and you decide whether or not to bring your child to my home. I don't do special for you. Take what I offer or hit the road jack.

If I don't want you to give my child cookies, I would expect you to listen and not give cookies NO cookies??????? Oh my this really won't work out. Again. I offer cookies. If you don't want your kid to have cookies than you hit the road jack. My biggest problem is keeping the PARENTS out of my cookies. I've never had a single one that didn't want their kid AND themselves to partake in Nans most excellent home made cookies.

If I don't want you to give my child cookies, I would expect you to listen and not give cookies behind my back just because you think you have the right to DECIDE what MY child should have! If you don't want your kid to have cookies you don't have to worry about whether or not I would give them cookies behind your back. You would just ease on down the road and find someone who didn't serve cookies. See how simple that is?

You can be hired and you be FIRED by famlies! I know. My kids are here an average of three years eight months. Can you imagine? I'm not too worried about getting "fired" by them. There is plenty more where they come from. I get to PICK who I take. I DECIDE who I'm going to take and I DECIDE what I'm going to do with their child while they are in my care. I follow my State's guidelines and I do what "I" think is right. I offer what "I" think is right. If that isn't right for them then they can scoot.

You got the tail waggin the dog there legomom. I'm the boss here.

Nanny just described how my daycare is run (except my cookies aren't that good)

Todays treat:

Blueberry, cherry, Ghirardelli Chocolate Bread.

My little fifteen month old left at noon. Her Dad says "Whatcha got cooking there Nan?" I tell him one of my special breads do you want a slice? "oh yeah sure".

He texts me five minutes later:

Oh wow... can I have the recipe?

He's an executive chef

Have to make TWO loaves at a time because the BOSS parents cry like sissy babies if they don't get their "cut".

Right on nannyde!! Very impressive that the executive chef wants your recipe.

Yep, me too!

Nan's chocolate cherry blueberry bread:

1 cup water
2 tablespoons butter or margarine, softened
1 cup 7 grain flour
1 cup white organic flour
1 cup whole wheat organic flour
3 tablespoons sugar
1 1/2 teaspoons salt
1 teaspoon ground cinnamon
2 1/2 teaspoons bread machine yeast
1 egg
1 tsp. vanilla
2 tablespoons Ghirardelli Milk Chocolate baking cocoa
1 cup blueberries
1 cup shaved tart dried cherries. (sweeten cherries with apple juice if you like it a little sweeter)

1.Measure carefully, placing all ingredients except fruit in bread machine pan in the order listed. Add fruit at the sweet bread signal or 5 to 10 minutes before last kneading cycle ends.
2.Select Sweet cycle. Use Medium crust color. Remove baked bread from pan and cool on wire rack.

Legomom - please chill. I think you've made your point here ad-nauseam.

thatgagril, I'm really glad that you and the mom worked things out; it sounds like things will be for the best now. Good for you--I can't imagine that was an easy conversation to have.

nannyde, yeah, what you said! For just about all of it except some of the details. And thanks for the bread recipe...now to try to translate it into a gluten free, not bread machine version!

Exactly the same here too!!!

And, legomom, we've been over this same argument in at least one other thread if not more - I think we can put it to rest now.

A little off topic - sorry - but what kind of bread machine do you use (brand)? I've always wanted one and this recipe makes me want to get it finally! Oh, and I second your post about how you run your business - I'm the same way.

I wonder if someone who is a better baker than me can figure out how to do that recipe without a bread machine. I make all our bread by hand and in the oven, but I stick to the same recipe. I have laurels bread book...and i love to read it, but i havent brought myself to make the recipes lol!

Thanks for the recipe nan. I need to get a bread machine as well....sooo what kind do ya have nan?

http://cgi.ebay.com/Regal-Kitchen-Pr...item4aa4fc8245

and

http://cgi.ebay.com/Toastmaster-1-5-...item3cafe5bf5f

The Regal is WAY better. The Toastmaster was given to me by a guy I bought squash from. It's a cheapo version of the Regal. I highly recommend the Regal.

I make two loaves at once because the time to make bread is getting out the ingredients. It only takes about three or so more minutes to make a second loaf.

I like having two machines.

OMG..You give cookies but not juice??? Isn't that kinda backwards??

Wow really?

Maybe I'm wrong but I think you've got Nan and thatgagirl mixed up. Nan's the one that makes the cookies and thatgagirl said that not offering juice in her DC is not the same as giving a vegetarian meat or like giving a child a cookie then says that she would never do either in any case. Just saying.

What????????????????????????????????????

I think she has gotten me confused with quite a few people to be honest lol...

oh well!

Apparently. It is sad when threads get hijacked and then turn sour. Sorry for your experience. It happens sometimes anywhere you forum but I enjoy this forum best. I feel more at home here. I hope you change your mind and come back sometime for advice, suggestions, venting etc. Believe me, there are some of us here that do still use our manners .

I don't have anyone confused with anyone...The only thing I'm confused about is why people have a problem giving juice, but not with cookies which are full of carbs, sugar and fat........

Oh and for the record, I have a right to my opinions just as everyone else does...

Will you ever give this a rest???

You totally have a right to your opinion, just don't rub it in our faces over and over and over and over. You seem to be on some sort of vendetta.

Geez - talk about beating a dead horse...

as is this post...........

I am the farthest thing from a moderator, for good reason.
HOWEVER- I propose that this thread be closed? I think the OP got her answers, and besides becoming a fascinating train wreck of differing opinions I think it has run its course. Now that is just MY opinion, and all opinions matter here, I just think it's causing more defensiveness and grief than is helpful to anyone.

What do you think, moderator?

Haha....I'll leave that up to Michael. I'll bring it to his attention for you.

But, on a side note, I do not appreciate your "tone" re. "moderator" For the record, I have been a mod for awhile and yesterday was the first time I have even made one move on the open forum as an acting mod. Although I am here daily, getting rid of spam and unwanted garbage on the forum, I have not been rude and have not overstepped any boundaries....in fact never even mentioned being a mod, I feel I am just another member.

But, thanks for pointing it out and acting as though I have been abusing my "powers" LOL!

Who, me?
If you were referring to me, I in no way said or insinuated any such thing. I simply asked a moderator to look into something.

SHEESH. This is what I was talking about though, the needless accusations and defensiveness. This forum has taken a downward turn over the last couple of months with claws out more than usual- is it a sign of the state of the economy? Why is doing daycare so cutthroat on this forum? Why do we feel the need to take our corner in the ring and go toe to toe with each other over EVERY LITTLE MISUNDERSTOOD THING? There was a time when misunderstandings happened, and were laughed about because people would simply ask, "Did I offend you?" rather than strap on the gloves.

Crystal, since you mentioned it, I do not care what you do as a moderator. I never have. That thing under you- it's called a 'high horse'.

Why would we be discussing someone elses child with another client???? Even if they are friends.

ITA. NEVER okay to do that, IMO.

Oh, my bad. I assumed you were speaking to me, seeing as how you posted your "comment" immediately after I posted.

And, no, no high horse here....only level ground.