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  #1  
Old 01-20-2015, 09:45 AM
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Default Lying 4 Year Old...

He is developmentally more like a 3. Just getting potty trained, expressive language is closer to his real age, but I strongly feel his receptive language is delayed. He can't follow a 2 step direction, and often has difficulty with a 1 step direction. He is diagnosed as ADHD, which I disagree with. There is a definite delay in gross and fine motor, social and self help skills. There are sensory issues as well. Because of this, I treat him as a young 3 and group him with the 2's and 3's and not my 4's during activities. His parents have noticed this, which is a whole different thread and I'll save you my rant on their assessment of his skills.

He is starting to say off the wall, impossible to be true things. It happened once in fall... he said dcb took him behind the playhouse and waved his (private part word) at him. 1. We were all playing kickball together. 2. There is no behind my playhouse, it's pushed right up against the fence to prevent blind spots in my supervision. 3. The dcb in question was in my eye sight the entire time we were outside. I emailed his mother about it, and addressed it with dcb. Difference between truth/lie, etc.

Now he is saying that certain kids are hitting him. Last week, out of NOWHERE he walked up to a child's parent at pickup time and said "E smacked me in the face today really hard!" the parent looked HORRIFIED as E is seriously the SWEETEST child in the world and has NEVER been physical. I said no, of course not. Discussed lying with dcb. Emailed parent. Parent wanted to know if it was possible and I had not seen it. Not really. I have a video monitor for when I plate lunch and potty, and dcb is VERY VERY fair, he marks up easily and is a screamer at the slightest injury.

Now it's different stories all the time, he is literally spinning tales all day. Today at circle during his share time, he shared that a ghost came into his house and cut his Dad's head off with a knife. I stopped the story there. His share time was over. He is lying CONSTANTLY about EVERYTHING. I didn't give him breakfast, C is spitting at him, D said a bad word, E is taking his toys. Of course, I'm watching for these things, and none of it is happening. I just emailed Mom again. I don't think he REALLY understands that what he is doing it wrong. He acts like a YOUNG 3. Of course, all it takes is ONE false allegation to make my life you-know-what.

Term? work with parents? There are other issues with both child and parent, but both have been workable thus far.
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Old 01-20-2015, 09:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daycarediva View Post
He is developmentally more like a 3. Just getting potty trained, expressive language is closer to his real age, but I strongly feel his receptive language is delayed. He can't follow a 2 step direction, and often has difficulty with a 1 step direction. He is diagnosed as ADHD, which I disagree with. There is a definite delay in gross and fine motor, social and self help skills. There are sensory issues as well. Because of this, I treat him as a young 3 and group him with the 2's and 3's and not my 4's during activities. His parents have noticed this, which is a whole different thread and I'll save you my rant on their assessment of his skills.

He is starting to say off the wall, impossible to be true things. It happened once in fall... he said dcb took him behind the playhouse and waved his (private part word) at him. 1. We were all playing kickball together. 2. There is no behind my playhouse, it's pushed right up against the fence to prevent blind spots in my supervision. 3. The dcb in question was in my eye sight the entire time we were outside. I emailed his mother about it, and addressed it with dcb. Difference between truth/lie, etc.

Now he is saying that certain kids are hitting him. Last week, out of NOWHERE he walked up to a child's parent at pickup time and said "E smacked me in the face today really hard!" the parent looked HORRIFIED as E is seriously the SWEETEST child in the world and has NEVER been physical. I said no, of course not. Discussed lying with dcb. Emailed parent. Parent wanted to know if it was possible and I had not seen it. Not really. I have a video monitor for when I plate lunch and potty, and dcb is VERY VERY fair, he marks up easily and is a screamer at the slightest injury.

Now it's different stories all the time, he is literally spinning tales all day. Today at circle during his share time, he shared that a ghost came into his house and cut his Dad's head off with a knife. I stopped the story there. His share time was over. He is lying CONSTANTLY about EVERYTHING. I didn't give him breakfast, C is spitting at him, D said a bad word, E is taking his toys. Of course, I'm watching for these things, and none of it is happening. I just emailed Mom again. I don't think he REALLY understands that what he is doing it wrong. He acts like a YOUNG 3. Of course, all it takes is ONE false allegation to make my life you-know-what.

Term? work with parents? There are other issues with both child and parent, but both have been workable thus far.
Definitely term. I wouldn't want the liability of this kid. Next time it's going to be touching his private parts or slapping him.
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  #3  
Old 01-20-2015, 10:10 AM
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I couldn't keep a child that lied that much. It sounds like his parents know he is lying but what if he tells someone else a lie and they report you...a lot could go wrong
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Old 01-20-2015, 10:32 AM
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Kids lie but to go to the extent that this child is would make me want to term . The lie about the other child behind the shed is the scary part , who knows what lie would come out next .
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Old 01-20-2015, 10:33 AM
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His parents have noticed this, which is a whole different thread and I'll save you my rant on their assessment of his skills.

rant away.
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Old 01-20-2015, 10:52 AM
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you asked!

He's definitely got me stumped. He can recite a TON of information, but he can't actually apply any to real life (I strongly feel he is on the spectrum). Eg He can rote count to 100. Crazy, but he CANNOT count accurately to 3. He can recognize numerals, but he can't put them in order (eg. 3, 4, 5) He can spell his name, all of the other kids names, and knows all of the letters, but he can't answer simple questions. Eg. BLUE what letter does that start with? (shakes head or doesn't answer) if I showed him just the B or covered it, he would get it. He can't tell similarities or differences, and just started to be capable of marking a paper with a crayon. He seems to have a photographic memory sometimes, but at other times (short term memory) he struggles with 'What did we eat for breakfast?' at circle time 30 minutes later but he can tell you ACCURATELY and with detail, about a field trip that was months ago. He still does a lot of parallel play, where he appears to be playing 'with' another child... but actually isn't. He really struggles socially, won't listen to limits set by peers, won't alter play schemes, repeats word for word what I have said to him to help him get through sharing eg. "HISNAME would like a turn with that toy. Can HISNAME have a turn now?" He loses his train of thought during a direction and will wander aimlessly or just stand there halfway through. Eg he often forgets how to wash his hands, so when he finishes attempting to potty, he will just stand there until I give him SPECIFIC directions. He repeats tv shows/movies WORD.FOR.WORD.

My 4's are working on letter formation/sounds, sight words, and counting 10-20. His Mom picked up during centers one day, and saw him at the table with 2-3's. She got really upset when she walked over and saw him with manipulatives and a #5 card (he had to match 5 penguins to the penguins on the card. She emailed me about it, and I sent home the exact center he was using so she could see for herself. She responded back that evening. It was just too boring for him so he didn't want to do it. They think he has ADHD and is a GENIUS. I cannot even bring up an alternate idea without her scoffing and telling me how he said/did X, Y, Z. Conferences are.....interesting.
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Old 01-20-2015, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daycarediva View Post
you asked!

He's definitely got me stumped. He can recite a TON of information, but he can't actually apply any to real life (I strongly feel he is on the spectrum). Eg He can rote count to 100. Crazy, but he CANNOT count accurately to 3. He can recognize numerals, but he can't put them in order (eg. 3, 4, 5) He can spell his name, all of the other kids names, and knows all of the letters, but he can't answer simple questions. Eg. BLUE what letter does that start with? (shakes head or doesn't answer) if I showed him just the B or covered it, he would get it. He can't tell similarities or differences, and just started to be capable of marking a paper with a crayon. He seems to have a photographic memory sometimes, but at other times (short term memory) he struggles with 'What did we eat for breakfast?' at circle time 30 minutes later but he can tell you ACCURATELY and with detail, about a field trip that was months ago. He still does a lot of parallel play, where he appears to be playing 'with' another child... but actually isn't. He really struggles socially, won't listen to limits set by peers, won't alter play schemes, repeats word for word what I have said to him to help him get through sharing eg. "HISNAME would like a turn with that toy. Can HISNAME have a turn now?" He loses his train of thought during a direction and will wander aimlessly or just stand there halfway through. Eg he often forgets how to wash his hands, so when he finishes attempting to potty, he will just stand there until I give him SPECIFIC directions. He repeats tv shows/movies WORD.FOR.WORD.

My 4's are working on letter formation/sounds, sight words, and counting 10-20. His Mom picked up during centers one day, and saw him at the table with 2-3's. She got really upset when she walked over and saw him with manipulatives and a #5 card (he had to match 5 penguins to the penguins on the card. She emailed me about it, and I sent home the exact center he was using so she could see for herself. She responded back that evening. It was just too boring for him so he didn't want to do it. They think he has ADHD and is a GENIUS. I cannot even bring up an alternate idea without her scoffing and telling me how he said/did X, Y, Z. Conferences are.....interesting.
Some of these tendencies point to autism....I am not a fan of doctors diagnosing a child with ADHD too early because this seems to brand the child and many never give them a chance to learn to self-regulate and they seem to get pushed to the side before school and then for sure when they begin school they continue to be pushed to the side.
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Old 01-20-2015, 11:21 AM
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Some of these tendencies point to autism....I am not a fan of doctors diagnosing a child with ADHD too early because this seems to brand the child and many never give them a chance to learn to self-regulate and they seem to get pushed to the side before school and then for sure when they begin school they continue to be pushed to the side.
I am not either. Our pediatrician believes not even evaluating before 7, as most ADHD behaviors are classic young-child behaviors. I really had to push them for an eval to 'prove' to my son's school he was a perfectly normal 6 year old.

I have a son with ASD, and that is what I strongly feel is going on here. He doesn't make eye contact, he seems non-phased by ANYTHING emotional. Parents divorce, grandparent (lived with) death, Mom leaving for weeks for business, no reaction. He has some stim/sensory seeking behaviors as well.
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Old 01-20-2015, 11:28 AM
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I am not either. Our pediatrician believes not even evaluating before 7, as most ADHD behaviors are classic young-child behaviors. I really had to push them for an eval to 'prove' to my son's school he was a perfectly normal 6 year old.

I have a son with ASD, and that is what I strongly feel is going on here. He doesn't make eye contact, he seems non-phased by ANYTHING emotional. Parents divorce, grandparent (lived with) death, Mom leaving for weeks for business, no reaction. He has some stim/sensory seeking behaviors as well.
If it is autism, it sounds like his environmental issues are negatively affecting his autism tendencies as well.
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Old 01-20-2015, 07:34 PM
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I'm seeing some red flags for autism, but I would be very concerned about the lying. IMO, that doesn't fit with any child I have known that is anywhere on the spectrum. Hmm. Well, I don't know if I would term, but the pp's are right that this could be a big problem for you. It's great you are documenting everything. What are you leaning more towards- terming or trying to work it out? I believe we usually know what direction we want to take when we post here, and I think it would be reasonable to term, if that's what you might be thinking.
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Old 01-20-2015, 08:36 PM
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I'm seeing some red flags for autism, but I would be very concerned about the lying. IMO, that doesn't fit with any child I have known that is anywhere on the spectrum. Hmm. Well, I don't know if I would term, but the pp's are right that this could be a big problem for you. It's great you are documenting everything. What are you leaning more towards- terming or trying to work it out? I believe we usually know what direction we want to take when we post here, and I think it would be reasonable to term, if that's what you might be thinking.
I agree!
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Old 01-21-2015, 03:20 AM
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I'm seeing some red flags for autism, but I would be very concerned about the lying. IMO, that doesn't fit with any child I have known that is anywhere on the spectrum. Hmm. Well, I don't know if I would term, but the pp's are right that this could be a big problem for you. It's great you are documenting everything. What are you leaning more towards- terming or trying to work it out? I believe we usually know what direction we want to take when we post here, and I think it would be reasonable to term, if that's what you might be thinking.
I am documenting the hell out of everything to try to cover my butt. I ONLY email/text Mom. Both parents are aware of what he's saying. They blame an older cousin for the 'negative influence', and they are behind anything I suggest to help. Unfortunately, it doesn't help that I feel he is delayed, and the parents strongly disagree. As soon as they heard 'behind' they started shaking their heads no. I'm not saying he isn't bright, he is incredibly so, but in so many other areas he is noticeably delayed.

I ran his 'symptoms' by an OT friend of mine and she said it's possible he has sensory integration dysfunction. It is often misdiagnosed as ADHD. The lying and autism don't correlate. She also said it's possible he THINKS he is telling the truth, or is using people/names he knows to repeat/script something he saw on tv. Argh.

IF I let them go, I know he is going to an illegal daycare ran my his aunt, who babies him to no end. He will go back in diapers, she will dress him, she will let him watch unlimited TV and it will really hurt him. It's awful when he comes back from a long weekend after having been there.

I really do NOT know what to do with this one. This child creates no other issues in class. He is well liked, even though most of the kids see his delays and try to help him, they all really like him. His parents pick up and pay on time, respect my policies, and for the most part, my opinion.
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Old 01-21-2015, 08:39 AM
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You have a child with Aspergers. Sadly, despite the fact that he needs intervention NOW, he will likely not get it. However, the lying comes from the fact that he cannot separate the TV/movies from life. He may even be confusing his dreams with reality.
IF the parents were onboard with understanding the child and how he operates and sees the world, I would keep him. In this situation, I would not. He is a strong liability to your business.
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Old 01-21-2015, 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Shell View Post
I'm seeing some red flags for autism, but I would be very concerned about the lying. IMO, that doesn't fit with any child I have known that is anywhere on the spectrum. Hmm. Well, I don't know if I would term, but the pp's are right that this could be a big problem for you. It's great you are documenting everything. What are you leaning more towards- terming or trying to work it out? I believe we usually know what direction we want to take when we post here, and I think it would be reasonable to term, if that's what you might be thinking.
I specialize in kids on the spectrum and have four of my own. They are not lying. They simply do not have the ability to see the difference between reality and what they see on TV or movies or even dreams. To them, it all carries the same weight. There does not seem to be a purpose (a goal) for it because there is not one.
This does not make it any less dangerous for the OP, but it is not really lying as we see it.
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Old 01-21-2015, 09:45 AM
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I specialize in kids on the spectrum and have four of my own. They are not lying. They simply do not have the ability to see the difference between reality and what they see on TV or movies or even dreams. To them, it all carries the same weight. There does not seem to be a purpose (a goal) for it because there is not one.
This does not make it any less dangerous for the OP, but it is not really lying as we see it.
This is essentially what the OT said could be happening. He isn't lying to get someone in trouble, or doing it with malice in his voice. He even says "E smacked me across the face. E will not get a time out. E is sorry."

I have a ds with autism, he is high functioning, but he has never told a lie. He doesn't even believe other people are capable of lying. It's a very hard thing to teach.

He is at it again today, only he must have watched something about dogs, because he keeps telling me his super sniffer can smell things. Odd things, like the ball a child brought that is in her cubby, etc.

I emailed the parents and we are going to have a conference tomorrow evening, I am going to request that he see a specialist for the diagnosis, since the school he is going to in fall will not accept a pediatrician's diagnosis. I also filled out a vineland for them to bring to the specialist. The pediatrician that dx him saw the vineland I completed and said it wasn't needed to make the diagnosis.
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