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Daycare Center and Family Home Forum>How Long Can You Put a Child in a Time Out
sahm2three 06:52 AM 06-09-2010
a child in time out? Ok, I ask because I have a boy in my dc who is a hitter. He is always hitting with either his hands, throwing toys, anything. I have talked to his mother about this and she told me yesterday to put him in timeout for the rest of the day if he hits, even if it happened in the morning! The boy is 6. He should know better than to hit. And low and behold, right away this morning he pummeled my son. So, he is in time out. He knows what his mom said, and so I have had him sitting in time out for an extended amount of time. About 20 minutes so far. I usually only do 1 minute per age of the child, but it is constant every day. I don't of course plan to leave him in time out all day, but I want to make sure he thinks I am going to follow what his mom told me to do and really make him think. I am just at a loss of what to do. We have talked and talked about why hitting is wrong and what to do instead. I would terminate, but he has 3 brothers also and they are in my dc as well and I would hate to lose all 4! Any ideas? Not a good way to start the day!
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originalkat 07:06 AM 06-09-2010
Because he is school age (6) and I assume the others are younger, I would have him sit at the table away from the others and give him productive to do such as puzzles, books to read, coloring etc... I would tell him that if he can not play nicely with the other children then he will have to play by himself. Then I would do some extra fun thing while he is over there that he misses out on. Make it look natural like you had always planned on doing it and you wish he had not have hit so he could participate.

After 45 min to an hour with his own activities away from the others I would give him the option to join the group. The older a child gets I dont really think the 1 minute thing would be very effective. 6 minuts isnt very long for a 6 year old. My 5 year old daughter spent 45 minutes in her room yesterday for throwing a fit. That type of behavior in unacceptable when they get to be school age. If I would have made her sit for 6 minutes she would not have learned that her behavior had a serious consequence. At the first sign of hitting, I would send him directly back to his own spot away from the other kids. Maybe he will catch on.
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fctjc1979 07:14 AM 06-09-2010
Originally Posted by originalkat:
Because he is school age (6) and I assume the others are younger, I would have him sit at the table away from the others and give him productive to do such as puzzles, books to read, coloring etc... I would tell him that if he can not play nicely with the other children then he will have to play by himself. Then I would do some extra fun thing while he is over there that he misses out on. Make it look natural like you had always planned on doing it and you wish he had not have hit so he could participate.

After 45 min to an hour with his own activities away from the others I would give him the option to join the group. The older a child gets I dont really think the 1 minute thing would be very effective. 6 minuts isnt very long for a 6 year old. My 5 year old daughter spent 45 minutes in her room yesterday for throwing a fit. That type of behavior in unacceptable when they get to be school age. If I would have made her sit for 6 minutes she would not have learned that her behavior had a serious consequence. At the first sign of hitting, I would send him directly back to his own spot away from the other kids. Maybe he will catch on.
I would suggest the same thing for the same reasons mentioned here. This also creates situations when the boy rejoins the group where kids that like to play with this boy when he isn't hitting will express disappointment to him that they weren't able to play with him. He will eventually learn that it's no fun disappointing your friends and this MAY help him self-motivate to learn how to control his actions. This doesn't always happen, but when it does, it usually works pretty well.
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sahm2three 10:22 AM 06-09-2010
I am going to have to have a talk with dcm again today. He sat in time-out for about 45 minutes and I talked to him and sent him back and he is back in time out again. I am not going to allow him to re-enter the group. He will be with me doing quiet things. I hate being punished too! LOL!
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jen 10:56 AM 06-09-2010
What I told my dd was, "if you can't play nice with your friends, then you don't get to play with them AT ALL."

Now since it was my dd, I sent her to her room for the remainder of the day. Since you can't really do that with dcb, I would set up an area where he can play all by his lonesome for the rest of the day. I would just put some books, puzzles and the like at a little table in the playroom, or wherever you guys happen to be and make him sit. You can see him, he can see everyone else having fun and no one is getting whacked!
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Michael 10:49 PM 06-12-2010
We never do more time then their age. If their three, three minutes time out.
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professionalmom 05:18 PM 06-13-2010
Actually this brings up a really good issue: At what age does time-out become inappropriate? Obviously there is a stopping age because you don't see 13, 15, 17 year olds getting time-out. They get grounded and it is usually for days or weeks. Heck I got grounded for a month once (I did deserve it, FYI).

Or is this something that is dependent on the child's DEVELOPMENTAL age and/or personality? I have a 7 year old DCB and time-out is working for him. But I do think he is a rare exception. I have always been of the belief that you must find what the (older) child LOVES and take that privilege away (i.e., video games, bike, etc.), but how would that work for daycare since they usually do not have these ADORED items at daycare?
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judytrickett 05:03 AM 06-14-2010
He's six. Time outs won't work for him. IMO, time outs in the typical fashion don't work for any kid. Big deal, so they have to sit there for a big old 3 or 4 or 5 minutes. Whopee. A kid is more inclined to sit in time out and find something fascinating to play with in their toes then they are to actually feel like they are being punished. That's why time out kids don't improve - the punishment does not fit the crime.

He's six. What he is doing is ridiculous. He KNOWS better. Personally, a child like this should be terminated for this behaviour. Not acceptable at all.

You need to get on kids while they are young. You observe and hover and the FIRST time they do it you get on their butts faster than they know what hit them. The learn early on from your attitude and very mean demenour that it is NOT acceptable. They don't do it anymore because there are expectations that they don't do it. It's amazing how different kids will act when you give them the opportunity to act in a reasonable manner.

Don't accept less and they will live up to the expectations.
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mac60 05:21 AM 06-14-2010
I agree, time outs are nothing but a big fat joke. And a minute for their years of age.....really, just shows how stupid the whole idea is. Little Johnny is a bad bad boy, he must sit time out for 3 minutes. Really big deal, means nothing, that is why they are back there day after day after day. When some in society decided discipline was wrong and took it away from our system, we now have a bunch of heathens to contend with.
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nannyde 05:36 AM 06-14-2010
Originally Posted by mac60:
I agree, time outs are nothing but a big fat joke. And a minute for their years of age.....really, just shows how stupid the whole idea is. Little Johnny is a bad bad boy, he must sit time out for 3 minutes. Really big deal, means nothing, that is why they are back there day after day after day. When some in society decided discipline was wrong and took it away from our system, we now have a bunch of heathens to contend with.
Agree

We need to STOP giving parents and caregivers the idea that in two minutes, three minutes, four minutes a child's behavior can be consequenced, forgiven, and a clean new start can happen.

We are the "point and click" generation. We want things to be done QUICKLY so we don't have to deal with it. Time out became popular because it's so fast and requires a very small amount of work on the adults part. Even if you add a minute or two to do a "conference" with the kid after it's over it's still really fast.

Time out (in the one minute per year fashion) should be called "easy out" cuz that's what it is for both the adult and the child.
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fctjc1979 05:48 AM 06-14-2010
I never got a time out when I was a child. My parents believed in spankings, but those weren't used all the time. The method my parents used were ENDLESS conversations, both parents and the offending child alone in a room, continuously asking questions and explaining why our actions were dangerous, disappointing, rude, disrespectful - whatever. They went on FOREVER making us explain ourselves. We knew we did wrong and having to explain ourselves was hard. Believe me, people think spankings are cruel but there were times I wished my parents would just "beat" me and get it over with . Parents today are too soft! Make the kid do all the thinking and then explain to them how they lost your trust and you are just shocked and dismayed that they would be behave this way------ it nearly "crushed" me as a child to know that I had so disappointed my parents. I still remember a lot of those conversations. I used to hate when my parents asked me, "so, what do you think we should do about this? What are you going to do to win our trust back?" These discussions literally went on for hours until the offending child had to take a nap when it was all over.
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judytrickett 06:03 AM 06-14-2010
Originally Posted by fctjc1979:
I never got a time out when I was a child. My parents believed in spankings, but those weren't used all the time. The method my parents used were ENDLESS conversations, both parents and the offending child alone in a room, continuously asking questions and explaining why our actions were dangerous, disappointing, rude, disrespectful - whatever. They went on FOREVER making us explain ourselves. We knew we did wrong and having to explain ourselves was hard. Believe me, people think spankings are cruel but there were times I wished my parents would just "beat" me and get it over with . Parents today are too soft! Make the kid do all the thinking and then explain to them how they lost your trust and you are just shocked and dismayed that they would be behave this way------ it nearly "crushed" me as a child to know that I had so disappointed my parents. I still remember a lot of those conversations. I used to hate when my parents asked me, "so, what do you think we should do about this? What are you going to do to win our trust back?" These discussions literally went on for hours until the offending child had to take a nap when it was all over.
First off, a BIG KUDOS to you for even bringing up the "S" word.

I think society was better off when we were allowed to spank our kids without worrying about some parent who has a demon spawn calling the authorities on us.

I wouldn't spank a daycare child - although I think a lot of them would benefit from it - but I do and have spanked my own kids. And, as fctjc1979 said, I didn't do it often because I didn't HAVE to. The simple fact that my kids KNEW I would was enough for them to know better than to call my bluff.

Just look at society now....the very reason we are in such a shambles is because no one expects to actually be punished for anything. Why bother to control your actions and desire to be selfish, rude and inconsiderate if nothing is gonna happen to you? And then these kids grown up with a mental mind set that they are entitled to be selfish and self-serving. THAT is why society is where it is.
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originalkat 06:07 AM 06-14-2010
Originally Posted by judytrickett:
First off, a BIG KUDOS to you for even bringing up the "S" word.

I think society was better off when we were allowed to spank our kids without worrying about some parent who has a demon spawn calling the authorities on us.

I wouldn't spank a daycare child - although I think a lot of them would benefit from it - but I do and have spanked my own kids. And, as fctjc1979 said, I didn't do it often because I didn't HAVE to. The simple fact that my kids KNEW I would was enough for them to know better than to call my bluff.

Just look at society now....the very reason we are in such a shambles is because no one expects to actually be punished for anything. Why bother to control your actions and desire to be selfish, rude and inconsiderate if nothing is gonna happen to you? And then these kids grown up with a mental mind set that they are entitled to be selfish and self-serving. THAT is why society is where it is.
I completely Agree!!!
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DBug 06:08 AM 06-14-2010
So, assuming that termination isn't much of an option for this child, what would be a good alternative to t/o?

I totally agree that t/o just doesn't work for many kids, but what else is there? Yes, we can get in their face and use the firm voice and intimidation tactics, but what is the actual consequence that should be used?

For my toddlers, if they get 3 (or so) timeouts, I separate them from the others by putting them in the superyard to play, or at the table or high chair. But that's more for everyone else's protection than anything else. I'm not sure it's teaching them much. I've had great school-agers so far, but I'm not sure what I'd do with a 6-year-old like this one ... what do you do if you don't do t/o's?
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fctjc1979 06:18 AM 06-14-2010
I've actually used a similar method with my daycare kids as my parents used on me. Only we obviously couldn't go in a seperate room to do it. I ask the kid questions about his behavior. I make the kid explain to me why he chose to behave that way. I don't raise my voice, I just continuously ask questions and have the child answer for their actions until I'm satisfied that they understand what they did was wrong. I REALLY wish I could explain how I do this. It works even for kids 3 and up and the occasional 2 year old. Usually by the time the conversation is done, the child is sobbing, telling me they're sorry, and telling anyone else they hurt/offended/whatever that they are sorry without being prompted to do it because they truly are sorry for what they did. I have the philosophy that I make the kid use THEIR brain rather than me wracking MY brain to figure out what to do. Asking questions is pretty easy (most of the time). To do this method, though, you have to be able to look a kid in the eye while they are crying and still be able to keep going with the questions until you know they get it. There's that backbone again!
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Former Teacher 06:58 AM 06-14-2010
Originally Posted by DBug:
For my toddlers, if they get 3 (or so) timeouts, I separate them from the others by putting them in the superyard to play, or at the table or high chair.
That's a big no no in the best eyes of TX licensing (NOT!) You cannot place a child in the table (we had that table that had the chairs inside the table) nor could you place the child in a high chair. These were for eating places ONLY. Yeah right. Likewise with a crib, to used for sleeping only.

Once we had a girl who bit all the time. We had her in the chair at the table and we gave her toys etc. However we were playing protecting the other children because this girl was FAST. No matter what you did or how you shadowed her she did it. She was picking up toys once and the caregiver was right there by her holding her hand and another child went to place a toy on a shelf and yep she bit him on the arm.

We had to keep this child isolated because she was SO bad. But state said no. Eventually mom got tired of hearing how her days were and pulled her out.
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judytrickett 07:06 AM 06-14-2010
Originally Posted by fctjc1979:
I have the philosophy that I make the kid use THEIR brain rather than me wracking MY brain to figure out what to do. Asking questions is pretty easy (most of the time). To do this method, though, you have to be able to look a kid in the eye while they are crying and still be able to keep going with the questions until you know they get it. There's that backbone again!
Yep, that and the preventative discipline work best. I don't have behaviour problems because I don't allow kids to get to the point of a behaviour problem. It's like how when a child first starts with me at 12 mths. My daycare space is in my basement. Half the basement is used. There is a transition piece on the floor that conjoins the two types of flooring present. Therefore, there is a natural progression into what is the daycare space.

When a child starts with me I will go over and physically move them if they walk over the transition piece. And I will do it 1000 times if necessary. There is not ONE single time I allow them to get away with it. They must STAY on the wood floor IN the daycare space when we are in the basement.

It sounds like this is a mute point but it's not. Because right from day ONE, even if they are crying and suffering from seperation anxiety I am showing that that the RULES and the EXPECTATIONS are there. I'm not kidding around. Your tears will get you no where if you are in the position of not following the rules and living up to the expectations. The same goes for hitting, biting, and all around bad behaviour. Really bad kids that start later in care will go to the Guantanamo detention area (playpen in seperate room) if need be until they understand.

So, something as simple as forcing them to comply to staying on the one side of a transition piece of flooring sets the mind set that I mean what I say and I say what I mean.
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AmandasFCC 07:15 AM 06-14-2010
Originally Posted by :
I totally agree that t/o just doesn't work for many kids, but what else is there? Yes, we can get in their face and use the firm voice and intimidation tactics, but what is the actual consequence that should be used?
I take things away. If you can't behave appropriately, you lose the right to fun. I have a 7 and 10 year old pair of siblings who, together, drive me absolutely mental. When they get out of line, they come inside, sit across the room from each other and read for the rest of the time they're with me. Could be half an hour, could be 2 hours, I don't care, but they get the point. And, of course, they get a stern lecture about appropriate behaviour.
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fctjc1979 08:44 AM 06-14-2010
Originally Posted by judytrickett:
Yep, that and the preventative discipline work best. I don't have behaviour problems because I don't allow kids to get to the point of a behaviour problem. It's like how when a child first starts with me at 12 mths. My daycare space is in my basement. Half the basement is used. There is a transition piece on the floor that conjoins the two types of flooring present. Therefore, there is a natural progression into what is the daycare space.

When a child starts with me I will go over and physically move them if they walk over the transition piece. And I will do it 1000 times if necessary. There is not ONE single time I allow them to get away with it. They must STAY on the wood floor IN the daycare space when we are in the basement.

It sounds like this is a mute point but it's not. Because right from day ONE, even if they are crying and suffering from seperation anxiety I am showing that that the RULES and the EXPECTATIONS are there. I'm not kidding around. Your tears will get you no where if you are in the position of not following the rules and living up to the expectations. The same goes for hitting, biting, and all around bad behaviour. Really bad kids that start later in care will go to the Guantanamo detention area (playpen in seperate room) if need be until they understand.

So, something as simple as forcing them to comply to staying on the one side of a transition piece of flooring sets the mind set that I mean what I say and I say what I mean.
I totally agree with you there. So many of the "accepted" discipline techniques are reactive rather than preventative. I love how you physically set up the accepted area in order to set up mental boundaries for the kids that establish who's boss. I know some people think this is cruel but how are kids supposed to feel comfortable in their environment if they don't have a clear idea of who is in control and clear boundaries? To me this is much kinder than constantly disciplining a kid after the fact.
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professionalmom 09:33 AM 06-14-2010
Originally Posted by fctjc1979:
I totally agree with you there. So many of the "accepted" discipline techniques are reactive rather than preventative. I love how you physically set up the accepted area in order to set up mental boundaries for the kids that establish who's boss. I know some people think this is cruel but how are kids supposed to feel comfortable in their environment if they don't have a clear idea of who is in control and clear boundaries? To me this is much kinder than constantly disciplining a kid after the fact.
BINGO! We have a winner! Children WANT, as well as need, structure and discipline. They WANT to know who is in charge. Do any of you remember being 13-18 years old and being asked, "So what do you want to be when you grow up?" Do you remember thinking, "How should I know? I don't even know what the options are?" It's really ridiculous if you think about it. But some idiot thought that children should be allowed to determine, not just their long-term destiny, but their moment-to-moment destiny and make all their own choices. How confusing is that for a child? They are always looking to us - the adults - for direction and guidance. They WANT and NEED for us to be their caregivers, parents, etc, NOT their friends. We are NOT their peers. We are their mentors!

My mother always said discipline begins as soon as they become mobile. And if you have not taken control of them by age 4 or 5, you will never get them to mind you. Sure, I got a couple spanks in my life and I got a lot more hand smacks when I was little, but by the time I was 4-5 years old (probably younger), I KNEW who the boss was and all she had to do was give me the "LOOK" and I would straighten up. I don't think I got any spanks or smacks after age 5, the look was enough. That's awesome parenting!

Also, about time out, what does that really teach in a matter of minutes? Hey, if the "experts" think it's so great and truly effective, why don't we use that for criminals. If you kill someone when you're 23, you get 23 minutes in time-out. If you rape someone when you're 30, you get 30 minutes in time-out. Maybe I'm on to something! Hey we could eliminate prisons all together and save taxpayers BILLIONS of dollars!! (FYI - I am being EXTREMELY sarcastic).

Oh, and here's a little extra info. My degree is in criminal justice so I went to college with a bunch of police officers, correctional officers, probation officers, etc. I have been in MANY conversations with them and have done a ton of research on the link between behaviors exhibited in young children, the discipline they received and the risk of spending time in prison. Here's the overwhelming result - when young children are disciplined with "soft" techniques or (the other extreme) abused, their risk goes up exponentially. Basically, a spanking (or swat) here and there is beneficial when they are young. Too much or too little and you get problems.

Spanking, as with any other discipline technique, when used too often, has the reverse effect. It's best when it is used sparingly and for the worst offenses. I have also used hand smacks for my daughter, but again only for the worst offenses. There IS a difference between the occasional swat and a "whooping" or abuse.

No, we cannot spank the DC kids, but I do like the "questions" method. Although it sounds like an interrogation, but hey, I would rather a child experience the trauma of a 10 minute interrogation at age 3 (which they probably won't remember), than experience a 12 hour murder interrogation at age 23. Oh, wait, I forgot, we're going to use the time-out method from now on!

I once suggested that a former coworker strip her children's bedrooms of everything except their beds, sheets, clothing, and books. No tv, no video games, no dvds / dvd player. Nothing else. They were out of control and telling each other "I hate you. I wish you were dead." So I told her the next time they (ages 8 & 10) do this, ground them to their rooms for the entire weekend. The only reason to open their bedroom doors were to go potty, shower, or go to church. And they would eat in their rooms (just like a prisoner in his cell). What do you think happened that first weekend? Grounded. But they sure had a brand new attitude when they were "released".

My parents figured out I opened my Christmas presents early. I was 12. So they took the TV out of the box, put cans of beets, spinach, and other veggies kids hate back in it (to give it weight) along with a long note explaining how disappointed they were and that I was grounded for a month. I opened that package with grandparents, my brothers, and my brothers' girlfriends present. I was so humiliated, I ran to my room and closed the door, sobbing. But I sure learned my lesson! It has never happened again and I'm in my mid 30's!
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originalkat 10:32 AM 06-14-2010
Originally Posted by professionalmom:
BINGO! We have a winner! Children WANT, as well as need, structure and discipline. They WANT to know who is in charge. Do any of you remember being 13-18 years old and being asked, "So what do you want to be when you grow up?" Do you remember thinking, "How should I know? I don't even know what the options are?" It's really ridiculous if you think about it. But some idiot thought that children should be allowed to determine, not just their long-term destiny, but their moment-to-moment destiny and make all their own choices. How confusing is that for a child? They are always looking to us - the adults - for direction and guidance. They WANT and NEED for us to be their caregivers, parents, etc, NOT their friends. We are NOT their peers. We are their mentors!

My mother always said discipline begins as soon as they become mobile. And if you have not taken control of them by age 4 or 5, you will never get them to mind you. Sure, I got a couple spanks in my life and I got a lot more hand smacks when I was little, but by the time I was 4-5 years old (probably younger), I KNEW who the boss was and all she had to do was give me the "LOOK" and I would straighten up. I don't think I got any spanks or smacks after age 5, the look was enough. That's awesome parenting!

Also, about time out, what does that really teach in a matter of minutes? Hey, if the "experts" think it's so great and truly effective, why don't we use that for criminals. If you kill someone when you're 23, you get 23 minutes in time-out. If you rape someone when you're 30, you get 30 minutes in time-out. Maybe I'm on to something! Hey we could eliminate prisons all together and save taxpayers BILLIONS of dollars!! (FYI - I am being EXTREMELY sarcastic).

Oh, and here's a little extra info. My degree is in criminal justice so I went to college with a bunch of police officers, correctional officers, probation officers, etc. I have been in MANY conversations with them and have done a ton of research on the link between behaviors exhibited in young children, the discipline they received and the risk of spending time in prison. Here's the overwhelming result - when young children are disciplined with "soft" techniques or (the other extreme) abused, their risk goes up exponentially. Basically, a spanking (or swat) here and there is beneficial when they are young. Too much or too little and you get problems.

Spanking, as with any other discipline technique, when used too often, has the reverse effect. It's best when it is used sparingly and for the worst offenses. I have also used hand smacks for my daughter, but again only for the worst offenses. There IS a difference between the occasional swat and a "whooping" or abuse.

No, we cannot spank the DC kids, but I do like the "questions" method. Although it sounds like an interrogation, but hey, I would rather a child experience the trauma of a 10 minute interrogation at age 3 (which they probably won't remember), than experience a 12 hour murder interrogation at age 23. Oh, wait, I forgot, we're going to use the time-out method from now on!

I once suggested that a former coworker strip her children's bedrooms of everything except their beds, sheets, clothing, and books. No tv, no video games, no dvds / dvd player. Nothing else. They were out of control and telling each other "I hate you. I wish you were dead." So I told her the next time they (ages 8 & 10) do this, ground them to their rooms for the entire weekend. The only reason to open their bedroom doors were to go potty, shower, or go to church. And they would eat in their rooms (just like a prisoner in his cell). What do you think happened that first weekend? Grounded. But they sure had a brand new attitude when they were "released".

My parents figured out I opened my Christmas presents early. I was 12. So they took the TV out of the box, put cans of beets, spinach, and other veggies kids hate back in it (to give it weight) along with a long note explaining how disappointed they were and that I was grounded for a month. I opened that package with grandparents, my brothers, and my brothers' girlfriends present. I was so humiliated, I ran to my room and closed the door, sobbing. But I sure learned my lesson! It has never happened again and I'm in my mid 30's!
Very interesting research you have done and it doesnt surprise me at all. I dont know why people think "soft discipline" is the way! Oh ya, it's because thats what the "experts" say.
I also use the questioning tecnique. Sometimes I tend to lecture though. I like what you have said about making them do the talking(thinking).
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nannyde 10:47 AM 06-14-2010
Originally Posted by professionalmom:
Also, about time out, what does that really teach in a matter of minutes? Hey, if the "experts" think it's so great and truly effective, why don't we use that for criminals. If you kill someone when you're 23, you get 23 minutes in time-out. If you rape someone when you're 30, you get 30 minutes in time-out. Maybe I'm on to something! Hey we could eliminate prisons all together and save taxpayers BILLIONS of dollars!! (FYI - I am being EXTREMELY sarcastic)
I love love love me some Professional Mom posts.
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HeatherB 02:20 PM 06-14-2010
Originally Posted by michael:
We never do more time then their age. If their three, three minutes time out.
This is what I have learned through training and classes...HOWEVER the minutes dont start until they are not throwing a fit and are not playing around.

I feel that 45 minutes is by far tooo harsh... you done and lost this boys attention span. He done and forgot why he was in timeout... even at the age of 6.

REDIRECTION redirection rediraction is a goal and POSTIVE reinformcement s key too... try to catch him when he is doing good. This should and will change his ways...It will however take time.... and patience.
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Crystal 02:26 PM 06-14-2010
Originally Posted by HeatherB:
This is what I have learned through training and classes...HOWEVER the minutes dont start until they are not throwing a fit and are not playing around.

I feel that 45 minutes is by far tooo harsh... you done and lost this boys attention span. He done and forgot why he was in timeout... even at the age of 6.

REDIRECTION redirection rediraction is a goal and POSTIVE reinformcement s key too... try to catch him when he is doing good. This should and will change his ways...It will however take time.... and patience.
Thank you.
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Crystal 02:27 PM 06-14-2010
If my child was EVER put in time out for 45 minutes, there would be a call to licensing. If you cannot deal with the behavior, terminate the parent/provider contract.
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fctjc1979 02:37 PM 06-14-2010
Originally Posted by professionalmom:
No, we cannot spank the DC kids, but I do like the "questions" method. Although it sounds like an interrogation, but hey, I would rather a child experience the trauma of a 10 minute interrogation at age 3 (which they probably won't remember), than experience a 12 hour murder interrogation at age 23. Oh, wait, I forgot, we're going to use the time-out method from now on!
It is a lot like an interrogation only I'm not trying to change their mind about what happened or using bright lights or anything else. Here is some sample questions I use:

What did you just do?
Why did you just do that?
Do your parents allow you to do that?
What would your parents say about this?
Why would you choose to respond by doing something you know you arenít supposed to do?
Was that a smart/kind/friendly/etc choice?
Why is (action) wrong?
What did we say the other day about (action)?
How do you think this made (other child) feel?
Would you like to feel this way?
Would you like for someone to do to you what you just did to (other child)?
How do I trust that you wonít do this again?
Do you understand why what you did lost my trust?
What are you going to do to prove to me that I donít have to worry about you doing this again?
What do you think we should do if you do this again?

These are what I call start up questions. They're the ones I always have in my arsenal. There are also the follow up questions that are dependant on their answers to other questions.

I always kind of think of it as a sort of reverse lecture. Instead of me lecturing the kid, I'm having them lecture themselves by having them think about what they think I might be thinking.

I'll never forget the day one of my dcg told a new dcb "Don't do that!! You're going to make her make you talk to her!!!!"
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sahm2three 02:42 PM 06-14-2010
Originally Posted by Crystal:
If my child was EVER put in time out for 45 minutes, there would be a call to licensing. If you cannot deal with the behavior, terminate the parent/provider contract.
Which is worse, having a child sit where he isn't hurting someone or having him sit for 6 minutes (which I don't believe is long enough) and then have him go back to the group and once again hurt someone? I had him sitting quietly and calmly and then when I decided he was calm enough I had him color. I may terminate him. But I am terminating an entire family then. Which sucks. To me, it is a lose lose situation. I have tried the talking route, but this little boy does not care. He knows the rules and can repeat them back, but he just continues to misbehave. He has the same issues at school and at home I think he is just pretty much lost in the shuffle. He gets all kinds of attention here, but also receives discipline.
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nannyde 03:56 PM 06-14-2010
Originally Posted by Crystal:
If my child was EVER put in time out for 45 minutes, there would be a call to licensing. If you cannot deal with the behavior, terminate the parent/provider contract.
He is SIX. He can go to Chucky Cheese for 45 minutes. He can go to a movie that is an hour and a half. He can play Ninetendo for 45 minutes.

What the HECK do you think is wrong with him having a time out for 45 minutes? Why is it that it's okay for kids to do fun and pleasurable things for hours on end but they have to have consequences be litterally minutes? That is INSANE.

Do you think when he gets put in the office at school they have him put his head on a desk for six minutes? Do you think the process of disciplining him at school is limited to six minutes?

It is rediculous. It really is. At some point we HAVE to start expecting these kids who are VIOLENT to have CONSEQUENCES that MATTER to them.

This is his story:

He is always hitting with either his hands, throwing toys, anything.

And low and behold, right away this morning he pummeled my son.

but it is constant every day.


This kid put his HANDS on the providers son. He was a guest in someones house and in the public and he HIT her child. That is INSANE. He needs to have a VERY VERY VERY serious consequence that affects his happiness for a significant amount of time. He needs to have serious limitations on ANY activity he does FOR WEEKS that puts any other child at risk. Whether he goes to her day care or ANYWHERE else the adults need to be LIMITING his world very very small everywhere he goes for a SIGNIFICANT... and I mean WEEKS... amount of time.

He needs to EARN the privledge of being around other children by having excellent consistent behavior over a significant amount of time. You can't do that in six minutes.

ENOUGH

ENOUGH

ENOUGH

I'm sick of it. I really am.
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professionalmom 04:28 PM 06-14-2010
Originally Posted by nannyde:
He is SIX. He can go to Chucky Cheese for 45 minutes. He can go to a movie that is an hour and a half. He can play Ninetendo for 45 minutes.

What the HECK do you think is wrong with him having a time out for 45 minutes? Why is it that it's okay for kids to do fun and pleasurable things for hours on end but they have to have consequences be litterally minutes? That is INSANE.

Do you think when he gets put in the office at school they have him put his head on a desk for six minutes? Do you think the process of disciplining him at school is limited to six minutes?

It is rediculous. It really is. At some point we HAVE to start expecting these kids who are VIOLENT to have CONSEQUENCES that MATTER to them.

This is his story:

He is always hitting with either his hands, throwing toys, anything.

And low and behold, right away this morning he pummeled my son.

but it is constant every day.


This kid put his HANDS on the providers son. He was a guest in someones house and in the public and he HIT her child. That is INSANE. He needs to have a VERY VERY VERY serious consequence that affects his happiness for a significant amount of time. He needs to have serious limitations on ANY activity he does FOR WEEKS that puts any other child at risk. Whether he goes to her day care or ANYWHERE else the adults need to be LIMITING his world very very small everywhere he goes for a SIGNIFICANT... and I mean WEEKS... amount of time.

He needs to EARN the privledge of being around other children by having excellent consistent behavior over a significant amount of time. You can't do that in six minutes.

ENOUGH

ENOUGH

ENOUGH

I'm sick of it. I really am.
Very excellent point. What about the injured child? Why in the world are we so concerned about the "feelings" of the perpetrator and never mention the INJURED child. At some point, children NEED to learn that there are consequences for their actions. And the bottom line is that the injured child needs to know that the adults charged with protecting him/her (especially mom or dad) will protect him or her and love him/her enough to right the wrong. Otherwise the injured child will only learn that (s)he who bullies will always be the winner and get away with the bad behavior. The focus needs to be on righting the wrong, healing the injured, and ensuring the safety of others, while having a stiff penalty for the abusive child.

If we put that same focus on domestic violence it would go like this: man beats his wife, the judge calmly explains why this behavior is wrong, puts the man in time-out, then expects the man and woman to go back to living together in harmony. Would that be acceptable to any of the proponents of "soft discipline"? Would you like to be that woman? Heck, no! Violence is unacceptable, no matter what the age. Period! I am really tired of people making excuses for the behavior and treating violent people (no matter what the age) with kid gloves as if the bully will be forever destroyed if (s)he has to be held accountable, all the while ignoring the poor victim who is supposed to "understand". BULL!!

You hit my child, your contract will be terminated ASAP and your parents will come and get you immediately. Until they get there, you will be in time out. Period. I am NOT going to endanger MY child because of a violent bully! And, yes, that has happened. And the injury was bad enough that it very well could have caused brain damage (hard, wood block on my 10 mth old DD's head, barely missing her soft spot!).

Sorry, but the injured child gets MY sympathy, not the bully. The violent child will be quickly removed from the situation and I will "baby" the victim. Parents will be called. Period. I focus on the victim! They are the one who deserves the coddling, not the bully!
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Crystal 04:37 PM 06-14-2010
I agree that 6 minutes of time-out is pointless. I agree that he is out of control and it is not acceptable and something HAS to be done about it.
The thing is EVEN 45 minutes of time out is not going to work for this child (or any child, as was pointed out previously, he doesn't even remember why he is there, or he doesn't care)

I think in this case, the only real consequence that will work is another child finally having enough and giving him a NATURAL consequence - which is a hit back or a loss of friendship (usually the former works best) Now, I would never TELL another child to do this, but I certainly wouldn't stop it either.

I also think that excluding from playing with the other children is okay, but sitting in time-out is pointless. Give him something constructive to do, away from the rest of the group. He cannot play nice, he cannot play with the other kids. Tell him, plain and clear, if he cannot play nice the other children don't WANT to play with him, so he needs to play alone....that getsold to a 6 year old fast. OR, try to get him on your side....make him a helper......he helps take care of the little ones by getting you the diapers, wiping hands, etc,, he helps you clean up, he helps you set the table, you BECOME his shadow and he will not have opportunity to hurt anyone else.

MOM needs to get on board here too....besides time out, what is she doing? Does he have a special toy/game/privilege at home that she can take away if he does not behave....for instance a favorite show he gets to watch or video game he plays when he goes home? If so, she needs to tell him, if you do not behave at DC you will lose____________ tonight. and she needs to FOLLOW THROUGH.

On another note, has he been referred for special needs diagnosis? There may be an underlying issue that seriously needs to be addressed. I am SO not one for meds, but in some cases, when there is EXTREMELY volatile behavior, there needs to be some sort of intervention.

I WOULD NOT coddle him and give him his way, but I WOULD NOT put him in a 45minute time out, or ANY time out at all.

And, FTR I would never have allowed it to go on this long - it's a risk to the other children in care and your business as a whole. I know it sucks, but it could seriously compromise your livelihood if something happens to another child in care.
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Crystal 04:39 PM 06-14-2010
Originally Posted by professionalmom:
Very excellent point. What about the injured child? Why in the world are we so concerned about the "feelings" of the perpetrator and never mention the INJURED child. At some point, children NEED to learn that there are consequences for their actions. And the bottom line is that the injured child needs to know that the adults charged with protecting him/her (especially mom or dad) will protect him or her and love him/her enough to right the wrong. Otherwise the injured child will only learn that (s)he who bullies will always be the winner and get away with the bad behavior. The focus needs to be on righting the wrong, healing the injured, and ensuring the safety of others, while having a stiff penalty for the abusive child.

If we put that same focus on domestic violence it would go like this: man beats his wife, the judge calmly explains why this behavior is wrong, puts the man in time-out, then expects the man and woman to go back to living together in harmony. Would that be acceptable to any of the proponents of "soft discipline"? Would you like to be that woman? Heck, no! Violence is unacceptable, no matter what the age. Period! I am really tired of people making excuses for the behavior and treating violent people (no matter what the age) with kid gloves as if the bully will be forever destroyed if (s)he has to be held accountable, all the while ignoring the poor victim who is supposed to "understand". BULL!!

You hit my child, your contract will be terminated ASAP and your parents will come and get you immediately. Until they get there, you will be in time out. Period. I am NOT going to endanger MY child because of a violent bully! And, yes, that has happened. And the injury was bad enough that it very well could have caused brain damage (hard, wood block on my 10 mth old DD's head, barely missing her soft spot!).

Sorry, but the injured child gets MY sympathy, not the bully. The violent child will be quickly removed from the situation and I will "baby" the victim. Parents will be called. Period. I focus on the victim! They are the one who deserves the coddling, not the bully!
I never once said show sympathy for the bully or to care more about how he feels than the victim. Of course I would show the victim all of the sympathy and attention - any one with any common sense would do so....it's not a novel idea.
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Crystal 04:46 PM 06-14-2010
Originally Posted by nannyde:
He is SIX. He can go to Chucky Cheese for 45 minutes. He can go to a movie that is an hour and a half. He can play Ninetendo for 45 minutes.

What the HECK do you think is wrong with him having a time out for 45 minutes? Why is it that it's okay for kids to do fun and pleasurable things for hours on end but they have to have consequences be litterally minutes? That is INSANE.

Do you think when he gets put in the office at school they have him put his head on a desk for six minutes? Do you think the process of disciplining him at school is limited to six minutes?

It is rediculous. It really is. At some point we HAVE to start expecting these kids who are VIOLENT to have CONSEQUENCES that MATTER to them.

This is his story:

He is always hitting with either his hands, throwing toys, anything.

And low and behold, right away this morning he pummeled my son.

but it is constant every day.


This kid put his HANDS on the providers son. He was a guest in someones house and in the public and he HIT her child. That is INSANE. He needs to have a VERY VERY VERY serious consequence that affects his happiness for a significant amount of time. He needs to have serious limitations on ANY activity he does FOR WEEKS that puts any other child at risk. Whether he goes to her day care or ANYWHERE else the adults need to be LIMITING his world very very small everywhere he goes for a SIGNIFICANT... and I mean WEEKS... amount of time.

He needs to EARN the privledge of being around other children by having excellent consistent behavior over a significant amount of time. You can't do that in six minutes.

ENOUGH

ENOUGH

ENOUGH

I'm sick of it. I really am.
I already posted a general reply, but to this I must say, I feel the same about your philosophy of discipline - I am sick of hearing what are supposed to Child Care Professionals insinuate that they prefer to see a child spanked than treated with dignity. Even if you feel that way, perhaps you oughtta keep it to yourself, as you give parents the idea that ALL providers are like YOU....

I knew I should have avoided this topic, as you always get yourself in such a rage over anybody having even a the slightest bit of a difference in opinion - but o'well, I'm not going to let that stop me from sharing my views, as I do use another approach to discipline, and as we have previously discussed, my methods WORK - they'd work for you too if you'd open your mind and give new approaches a chance to work.
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professionalmom 04:48 PM 06-14-2010
Originally Posted by Crystal:
I never once said show sympathy for the bully or to care more about how he feels than the victim. Of course I would show the victim all of the sympathy and attention - any one with any common sense would do so....it's not a novel idea.
I actually wasn't responding to anything you said. When I saw your response, I had to go looking for what you said because I wasn't even thinking about your post. I was responding to a post that mentioned the victim and it got me thinking about how we often discuss what to do with the bully and focus attention on that. Instead we should separate the bully immediately and for as long as necessary but be discussing all the many ways we can help the victim to feel safe and secure again.

This is the focus in child care and in the criminal justice system - how to deal with the bully, not how to right the wrong or bring the victim some sense of security. So it seems like a society problem to me.

If we are talking about a minor incident I do make the bully go to the victim, apologize, explain why it was wrong, that it will not happen again, and ask if (s)he can hug the victim to show that the bully means what (s)he says. However, the child in the OP is WAY beyond this.
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Crystal 04:52 PM 06-14-2010
sorry about that promom....I saw that you had quoted nannyde's response to me and just assumed you were referring to me....my bad
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Crystal 04:53 PM 06-14-2010
And, I agree, the child in the OP is WAY beyond what you describe. There needs to be something done, but as has been discussed, time-out clearly is not working.
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Former Teacher 04:58 PM 06-14-2010
Originally Posted by sahm2three:
Which is worse, having a child sit where he isn't hurting someone or having him sit for 6 minutes (which I don't believe is long enough) and then have him go back to the group and once again hurt someone? I had him sitting quietly and calmly and then when I decided he was calm enough I had him color. I may terminate him. But I am terminating an entire family then. Which sucks. To me, it is a lose lose situation. I have tried the talking route, but this little boy does not care. He knows the rules and can repeat them back, but he just continues to misbehave. He has the same issues at school and at home I think he is just pretty much lost in the shuffle. He gets all kinds of attention here, but also receives discipline.
You need to terminate him and terminate him NOW. Yes you will lose another family but don't be like certain providers out there that see only green dollar signs in front them. Think of the other children in care as well. You did your best with this beast..now its time to think of you, your family, and the other children.
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fctjc1979 05:49 PM 06-14-2010
Originally Posted by Crystal:
I think in this case, the only real consequence that will work is another child finally having enough and giving him a NATURAL consequence - which is a hit back or a loss of friendship (usually the former works best) Now, I would never TELL another child to do this, but I certainly wouldn't stop it either.

OR, try to get him on your side....make him a helper......he helps take care of the little ones by getting you the diapers, wiping hands, etc,, he helps you clean up, he helps you set the table, you BECOME his shadow and he will not have opportunity to hurt anyone else.
Crystal, while I've not always agreed with everything you've said, I could always at least respect what you said as not being just straight up wrong, but I just not sure I can do that this time. For the first part about natural consequences, I'm all for letting natural consequences being the teacher, but to say that another kid disciplining this child is the only thing that will work is a cop-out. I'm hoping you didn't actually mean that and just wrote it that way for emphasis or something. I know that's a possibility.

As for the second part, I can agree to disagree with you on this one just like I have in the past. I happen to think that getting to help the teacher is a reward rather than a punishment. It tells the kid that you trust them to be a big boy, which he is not if he's hurting other kids. But I do understand what you mean about keeping him close so you can try to prevent him from hurting someone else.
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judytrickett 05:53 PM 06-14-2010
Originally Posted by Crystal:
I already posted a general reply, but to this I must say, I feel the same about your philosophy of discipline - I am sick of hearing what are supposed to Child Care Professionals insinuate that they prefer to see a child spanked than treated with dignity. Even if you feel that way, perhaps you oughtta keep it to yourself, as you give parents the idea that ALL providers are like YOU....

I knew I should have avoided this topic, as you always get yourself in such a rage over anybody having even a the slightest bit of a difference in opinion - but o'well, I'm not going to let that stop me from sharing my views, as I do use another approach to discipline, and as we have previously discussed, my methods WORK - they'd work for you too if you'd open your mind and give new approaches a chance to work.
Geese, I leave the house for a few hours and look what's happened.

BTW...the bolded part? I SEE how this "works" all around me. I "see" how this approach of yours works when a child behaves all day in MY care but hits and kicks at their parents when they show up. I "SEE" the kids who toss garbage on the ground and approached about it by an adult act out with beligerent, rude comebacks. I "SEE" how many hours in a day are spend in school classrooms on behaviour problems rather than teaching.

Yep, what you claim "works" I can "SEE" all around me.

It doesn't work. It never has worked. It won't work in the future.

ANd you know what, I COMMEND NannyDe and profressional mom for having the BALLS to openly say what they think. Because it is sooo not a popular view. It would be MUCH easier to just crawl back into their little lives and not bother to post anything and get flamed for it. But instead they do.

Nannyde......Just keep telling the truth. Keep telling the TRUTH.
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professionalmom 05:57 PM 06-14-2010
Originally Posted by Crystal:
sorry about that promom....I saw that you had quoted nannyde's response to me and just assumed you were referring to me....my bad
No problem. I just didn't want you to think I was directing anything at you. But you are right about the 45 minutes, I think. The rule of thumb is 1 min per year of age, so 45 minutes might get us in trouble here in MI.
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Crystal 06:05 PM 06-14-2010
Originally Posted by fctjc1979:
Crystal, while I've not always agreed with everything you've said, I could always at least respect what you said as not being just straight up wrong, but I just not sure I can do that this time. For the first part about natural consequences, I'm all for letting natural consequences being the teacher, but to say that another kid disciplining this child is the only thing that will work is a cop-out. I'm hoping you didn't actually mean that and just wrote it that way for emphasis or something. I know that's a possibility.

As for the second part, I can agree to disagree with you on this one just like I have in the past. I happen to think that getting to help the teacher is a reward rather than a punishment. It tells the kid that you trust them to be a big boy, which he is not if he's hurting other kids. But I do understand what you mean about keeping him close so you can try to prevent him from hurting someone else.
Thanks for your respectful and thoughtful reply.

Let me clarify....I would NEVER have a child or a tell a child to fight back...but if they do, then maybe they are sending a message to the bully, to not mess with them again. I would not stop that, UNLESS it got out of hand. I know in the past when I was bullied, that when I finally stood up for myself, it never happened again.

I do agree that the helping could be seen as a reward in some cases, BUT, trust me, a child gets SICK OF IT, when they are following along with the teacher all day for several days.
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Crystal 06:13 PM 06-14-2010
Originally Posted by judytrickett:
Geese, I leave the house for a few hours and look what's happened.

BTW...the bolded part? I SEE how this "works" all around me. I "see" how this approach of yours works when a child behaves all day in MY care but hits and kicks at their parents when they show up. I "SEE" the kids who toss garbage on the ground and approached about it by an adult act out with beligerent, rude comebacks. I "SEE" how many hours in a day are spend in school classrooms on behaviour problems rather than teaching.

Yep, what you claim "works" I can "SEE" all around me.

It doesn't work. It never has worked. It won't work in the future.

ANd you know what, I COMMEND NannyDe and profressional mom for having the BALLS to openly say what they think. Because it is sooo not a popular view. It would be MUCH easier to just crawl back into their little lives and not bother to post anything and get flamed for it. But instead they do.

Nannyde......Just keep telling the truth. Keep telling the TRUTH.
Maybe it's something with the water in Canada ...I just DO NOT see this with the kids I care for.....of course I have families who work with me, because I work with them. We are all on the same page, exact the same forms of "disicpline" and their kids are great. Sorry if that doesn't happen for you, but for me, it does.

Please, tell me Judy, why is it okay for you all to have YOUR opinions about how things should be done, but it's not okay for those of us with diferring ideas and views? It never fails, if I even mention the thought of alternative methods, you all get on the bandwagon and blast any point of view that's not yours.
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Former Teacher 06:23 PM 06-14-2010
Originally Posted by Crystal:
Please, tell me Judy, why is it okay for you all to have YOUR opinions about how things should be done, but it's not okay for those of us with diferring ideas and views? It never fails, if I even mention the thought of alternative methods, you all get on the bandwagon and blast any point of view that's not yours.
With ALL due respect to my fellow colleagues: I totally agree with you Crystal. There are certain members on this forum, not naming names as there are a few, that are on here that I often wonder how they even stay in business with some of the views and beliefs they have.

I just sometimes sit back and keep things to myself
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professionalmom 06:29 PM 06-14-2010
Originally Posted by judytrickett:
ANd you know what, I COMMEND NannyDe and profressional mom for having the BALLS to openly say what they think. Because it is sooo not a popular view. It would be MUCH easier to just crawl back into their little lives and not bother to post anything and get flamed for it. But instead they do.

Nannyde......Just keep telling the truth. Keep telling the TRUTH.
Actually, I once saw a statistic that showed that most parents agree that a swat from time to time (not daily or weekly), is ok and does not constitute abuse and that most have resorted to it at least once. I just did a quick Google search and found an article in the Wall Street Journal about Spanking making a comeback (2000): http://www.nospank.net/journal.htm. I'm sure it only would take an hour or so to accumulate a novel's worth of data on this. Just Google "how many parents spank" or something like that.

So ... I honestly think that many parents know that time-out does not ALWAYS work for ALL children and that some do need a swat once in a great while. But since society has made them out to be vicious, vile, abusive animals who shouldn't be allowed to be in the presence of ANY child, let alone allowed to procreate, most of these parents who hold the same view as Nannyde and I (and I think Judy) keep their mouths shut for fear they may get their children taken away. So we are letting a radical few control the masses with fear-mongering. But I refuse to stand by and let the maniacs run the asylum. It's so strange that here in the US, we let the minority beliefs control the majority because the minority (I'm not talking race - just the minority belief system) groups use fear to control the majority. If you are in the majority, stand up, get a backbone, or this country will go to h*** in a hand basket. Who do you want changing YOUR diapers when your 80 and in a nursing home? The child who never had REAL consequences for his actions and thinks changing your Depends is gross and beneath him OR the child who learned about respect for elders, control over his own our impulses, and has a sense of duty to others?

FYI - There are extremes in any case or any topic. When it comes to discipline of children, you can be too extreme (abusive - which I would beat the tar out of anyone who ABUSED a child!) to too lenient, which only teaches them to continue in their delusional, ego-centric world of instant gratification at the expense of all other people and without any sympathy or empathy. Our prisons are crowded with people from both extremes. We need the middle ground. It's not always so black and white. There are many shades of gray and we need to understand that gray is not evil. There is a compromise somewhere in the middle and we need to find it.
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judytrickett 06:31 PM 06-14-2010
Originally Posted by Former Teacher:
With ALL due respect to my fellow colleagues: I totally agree with you Crystal. There are certain members on this forum, not naming names as there are a few, that are on here that I often wonder how they even stay in business with some of the views and beliefs they have.

I just sometimes sit back and keep things to myself
Oh, no, by all means, name names.

I stay in business because the kids and parents respect what I do. It's not complicated.

Originally Posted by :
Crystal said: Please, tell me Judy, why is it okay for you all to have YOUR opinions about how things should be done, but it's not okay for those of us with diferring ideas and views? It never fails, if I even mention the thought of alternative methods, you all get on the bandwagon and blast any point of view that's not yours.
Isn't that exactly what you are doing when you pipe up with YOUR view and tell me, or others WE are incorrect? A bit of a double standard there.

Besides, it seems to me lots of people debate the topic at hand but you debate the people. YOU make it personal.

Forums ARE essential debate hot spots. That's why they're here. What good would it do if everyone came on and all smiled and blew sunshine and roses out their asses and agreed, agreed, agreed?
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judytrickett 06:35 PM 06-14-2010
Originally Posted by professionalmom:

So ... I honestly think that many parents know that time-out does not ALWAYS work for ALL children and that some do need a swat once in a great while. But since society has made them out to be vicious, vile, abusive animals who shouldn't be allowed to be in the presence of ANY child, let alone allowed to procreate, most of these parents who hold the same view as Nannyde and I (and I think Judy) keep their mouths shut for fear they may get their children taken away. So we are letting a radical few control the masses with fear-mongering. .
WELL SAID!

Most people CARE what others think. Most people are afraid to be different or say what needs to be said. In short, most people don't want to jeopardize their standing in society by alienating others. I say SCREW that! Who the hell cares about being popular when you have to live in fear of what others might think, say or do? What kind of a life is that anyway?

And as for the DEPENDS remark?? That is something I have addressed before too. THESE kids are gonna be taking care of ME one day. I want them to be well-rounded, respectful people.
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HeatherB 06:36 PM 06-14-2010
I am fairly new here on this site....however I have plenty of years experience in childcare PLUS training and classes for foster care license. My county would frown against time out for 45 minutes.... BUT if you choose to remove the child to play by himself would be better. They will see this as displine for 45 minutes.. and not tolerated. I cannot imagine what else happend in those homes that are not shared. Will be praying for the child!
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fctjc1979 06:36 PM 06-14-2010
Originally Posted by Former Teacher:
With ALL due respect to my fellow colleagues: I totally agree with you Crystal. There are certain members on this forum, not naming names as there are a few, that are on here that I often wonder how they even stay in business with some of the views and beliefs they have.

I just sometimes sit back and keep things to myself
Childcare providers with various views and beliefs can be successful because parents have various views and beliefs. Parents tend to take their children to providers that have silimar views and beliefs as they do.

People are different; that's why there needs to be many methods of disciplining children. Children are not all the same, their parents are not all the same, and the providers are not all the same. And there is no reason why all these different people can't get along and be successful if everyone is willing to do so. I think that discipline is one of those issues that gets people heated because someone in their past used a discipline method with them that did not work with their personality and so they were determined to never see that happen to another child - not realizing that for some children, it might be exactly what they need.

The important thing is to know yourself, the parents, and the children to the best of your ability. Use what works for you and the child. And when someone presents you with a new method, try it out unless it conflicts with your fundamental beliefs - or the beliefs of the parent.
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judytrickett 06:40 PM 06-14-2010
Originally Posted by HeatherB:
I am fairly new here on this site....however I have plenty of years experience in childcare PLUS training and classes for foster care license. My county would frown against time out for 45 minutes.... BUT if you choose to remove the child to play by himself would be better. They will see this as displine for 45 minutes.. and not tolerated. I cannot imagine what else happend in those homes that are not shared. Will be praying for the child!
Okay, I'm gonna assume you are being serious here. If not, then I apologize in advance.......

So, you wanna know what else is happening in "those homes that are not shared". Oh, terrible things, awful things. Like being made to clean up after yourself, showing empathy for your friends, taking personal responsibility.

You wanna know what REALLY happens in "those homes"? Just to to my blog. I'm pretty upfront. And you know what? I have NO behavioural problems - NONE. And the kids need to be hauled out of here at the end of the day because they don't wanna leave Miss Judy's house. They like it here because I take care of them - I set boundaries to keep them safe, to teach them life lessons and the Kids love that. They thrive on that.

THAT is what goes on in "those homes that are not shared".
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fctjc1979 06:43 PM 06-14-2010
Originally Posted by professionalmom:
It's so strange that here in the US, we let the minority beliefs control the majority because the minority (I'm not talking race - just the minority belief system) groups use fear to control the majority. If you are in the majority, stand up, get a backbone, or this country will go to h*** in a hand basket. Who do you want changing YOUR diapers when your 80 and in a nursing home? The child who never had REAL consequences for his actions and thinks changing your Depends is gross and beneath him OR the child who learned about respect for elders, control over his own our impulses, and has a sense of duty to others?

FYI - There are extremes in any case or any topic. When it comes to discipline of children, you can be too extreme (abusive - which I would beat the tar out of anyone who ABUSED a child!) to too lenient, which only teaches them to continue in their delusional, ego-centric world of instant gratification at the expense of all other people and without any sympathy or empathy. Our prisons are crowded with people from both extremes. We need the middle ground. It's not always so black and white. There are many shades of gray and we need to understand that gray is not evil. There is a compromise somewhere in the middle and we need to find it.
Why is it that you always say what I mean better than I do?!?!?
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HeatherB 06:45 PM 06-14-2010
Originally Posted by judytrickett:
Like being made to clean up after yourself, showing empathy for your friends, taking personal responsibility.
That is also being taught in my home too! But come on a 6yo in time out for 45 minutes.... i dare you since you are so up front... ask all your parents if they would agree with this? I bet they wont!
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fctjc1979 06:53 PM 06-14-2010
Originally Posted by judytrickett:
He's six. Time outs won't work for him. IMO, time outs in the typical fashion don't work for any kid. Big deal, so they have to sit there for a big old 3 or 4 or 5 minutes. Whopee. A kid is more inclined to sit in time out and find something fascinating to play with in their toes then they are to actually feel like they are being punished. That's why time out kids don't improve - the punishment does not fit the crime.

He's six. What he is doing is ridiculous. He KNOWS better. Personally, a child like this should be terminated for this behaviour. Not acceptable at all.

You need to get on kids while they are young. You observe and hover and the FIRST time they do it you get on their butts faster than they know what hit them. The learn early on from your attitude and very mean demenour that it is NOT acceptable. They don't do it anymore because there are expectations that they don't do it. It's amazing how different kids will act when you give them the opportunity to act in a reasonable manner.

Don't accept less and they will live up to the expectations.
Heather, I believe Judytrickett also thought a 45 minute time out was ridiculous -- for different reasons than you, obviously, but still ridiculous. Nowhere did she advocate a 45 minute timeout.
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HeatherB 06:57 PM 06-14-2010
Originally Posted by fctjc1979:
Heather, I believe Judytrickett also thought a 45 minute time out was ridiculous -- for different reasons than you, obviously, but still ridiculous. Nowhere did she advocate a 45 minute timeout.
Thanks...my mistake with all these different handle names
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professionalmom 07:00 PM 06-14-2010
Originally Posted by Crystal:
Please, tell me Judy, why is it okay for you all to have YOUR opinions about how things should be done, but it's not okay for those of us with diferring ideas and views? It never fails, if I even mention the thought of alternative methods, you all get on the bandwagon and blast any point of view that's not yours.
I know you were asking Judy, but maybe I can explain. I don't think anyone is attacking your position. If it works for you - GREAT!! Go for it!! But there are some instances where is does not work. I don't think Nannyde, Judy, or I (at least I know I have never) have ever said that we spank or swat our daycare kids. The law tells me I can't, so I don't. But the law does NOT tell me what I can or cannot do when it comes to the child(ren) a gave life to. Those are MY children and I am the one (along with their dad/my hubby) charged with raising them to be productive, caring, responsible adults.

The reason some of us may sound defensive is because the people who oppose the occasional swat, like to make the rest of us out to vile, vicious, evil creatures, instead of saying, "ok, you have your way, I have mine." And with these types of people, they are trying to have any and all forms of swatting outlawed and make us criminals for trying to discipline/teach our children. Basically, it is a way to take away our fundamental right to raise and parent our children as we see fit. Now, I am NOT talking about giving a child 5 or more hits, or hitting daily (or even weekly), or using a belt/brush/board/etc, I am talking about 1 swat, on the tushie (usually through a diaper or pull-up), once in a great while. Yet, that opinion gets the "I don't understand how you could have a license" comments (not pointed at any comment made on this thread, this is quoting comments made in general). Why? Because we have a different viewpoint?

Also, I think that for the DC providers who support a parent's right to swat or spank (AGAIN, NOT ABUSE), it is because many parents are so terrified to hit in any manner, they have lost control of their kids. My though is if you don't want to spank, swat, etc - great, but you better have an alternative that is effective for the child. It sounds like you do, so great, kudos, congrats. But if the alternatives do not work for some children, don't judge us as abusive. That's all we are saying.
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professionalmom 07:07 PM 06-14-2010
Originally Posted by fctjc1979:
Childcare providers with various views and beliefs can be successful because parents have various views and beliefs. Parents tend to take their children to providers that have silimar views and beliefs as they do.

People are different; that's why there needs to be many methods of disciplining children. Children are not all the same, their parents are not all the same, and the providers are not all the same. And there is no reason why all these different people can't get along and be successful if everyone is willing to do so. I think that discipline is one of those issues that gets people heated because someone in their past used a discipline method with them that did not work with their personality and so they were determined to never see that happen to another child - not realizing that for some children, it might be exactly what they need.

The important thing is to know yourself, the parents, and the children to the best of your ability. Use what works for you and the child. And when someone presents you with a new method, try it out unless it conflicts with your fundamental beliefs - or the beliefs of the parent.
You said this, then in another post in this thread said, "Why is it that you always say what I mean better than I do?!?!?" Well, I have to say ditto to you. I think you did a FINE job getting a point across that I have been stumbling around.

Wasn't it Rodney King who said, "Why can't we all just get along?" So what if people have different views? New concept: maybe there are no right or wrong answers (except when it does become ABUSE), just answers. Can't people agree to disagree anymore?
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Former Teacher 07:09 PM 06-14-2010
Originally Posted by judytrickett:
Oh, no, by all means, name names.

I stay in business because the kids and parents respect what I do. It's not complicated.
I am just merely stating an opinion about how some providers here run their business. There are a few members who just talk so disrespectful about their clients, if their clients only knew! Has nothing to do with the childcare aspect..just the business side. Ok maybe it does but its mainly how some members treat the parents.

Bottom line is those parents pay our salary. If we don't like them for whatever reason, there is always the next one.
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Former Teacher 07:18 PM 06-14-2010
Originally Posted by professionalmom:
But the law does NOT tell me what I can or cannot do when it comes to the child(ren) a gave life to. Those are MY children and I am the one (along with their dad/my hubby) charged with raising them to be productive, caring, responsible adults.
Funny you should mention that haha

In TX you are not allowed to spank even your own child during daycare hours. Spanking or swatting or slapping on the hand- all no nos in the presense or earshot of a dc child.

Once there was a caregiver when state was walking around. She didn't know that the state woman was outside the doorway. Well she said in a low voice but still the state heard her-"take a chill or you are going to get it" or something like to her own daughter who was 2 years old. Yep we were written up. For threating a child in the presense of other 2 year old children
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professionalmom 07:21 PM 06-14-2010
Originally Posted by Former Teacher:
Originally Posted by judytrickett:
Oh, no, by all means, name names.

I stay in business because the kids and parents respect what I do. It's not complicated.
I am just merely stating an opinion about how some providers here run their business. There are a few members who just talk so disrespectful about their clients, if their clients only knew! Has nothing to do with the childcare aspect..just the business side. Ok maybe it does but its mainly how some members treat the parents.

Bottom line is those parents pay our salary. If we don't like them for whatever reason, there is always the next one.
First, sure some people do complain about the parents a lot. But you know what, I have every right to complain about how I am being treated in MY own home when a 22 year old BRAT decides to call me a f***** B**** and a C*** in MY home in front of MY child and MY DC kids all because I handed her a written 2 weeks notice of termination (calmly, and quietly). FYI - I waited too long and took too much from this DCM because I let her intimidate me and I feared this very reaction because she was such a hostile person.

Second, sure, they pay our salary, but they do not OWN me. I am not their slave to be whipped, demeaned, demoralized, etc. Again, everyone will respect me in MY home. Period. I give respect (usually laced with a ton of sugar and sweetness). SO I expect other to respect me. If you don't, I am channeling my inner Judy and saying "Next..." (which is similar to what you said). But I also have the right to do the "OMG! You will NOT believe what someone just said to me". I helps us to not feel like we're all alone. I stared to think it was ME. Then I came on here and realized, nope, it's not me because it happens to so many others.
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nannyde 07:25 PM 06-14-2010
Originally Posted by HeatherB:
Originally Posted by judytrickett:
Like being made to clean up after yourself, showing empathy for your friends, taking personal responsibility.
That is also being taught in my home too! But come on a 6yo in time out for 45 minutes.... i dare you since you are so up front... ask all your parents if they would agree with this? I bet they wont!
For pullmeting the providers kid? For hitting constantly. For putting the other kids at risk.

Ahhhh YEAH they wouldn't have a problem with a six year old bully getting a 45 minute time out. Sheesh... that'd want to know what happened AFTER that too. Whatcha got planned for him next Nan? maybe go clean the whole toy room after the kids have a dump out session.

Then a nap

Then some "private snack" time with some less desired green veggies.

Then maybe a scolding from Mom at pick up and a good ole fashioned room grounding.

Then we'll come up with a few more things the next day as he's gonna be the lone ranger for a while at my house.

Just theoretical tho cuz my kids NEVER hit. They wouldn't dare.
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fctjc1979 07:33 PM 06-14-2010
[quote=professionalmom;32431]
Originally Posted by Former Teacher:

First, sure some people do complain about the parents a lot. But you know what, I have every right to complain about how I am being treated in MY own home when a 22 year old BRAT decides to call me a f***** B**** and a C*** in MY home in front of MY child and MY DC kids all because I handed her a written 2 weeks notice of termination (calmly, and quietly). FYI - I waited too long and took too much from this DCM because I let her intimidate me and I feared this very reaction because she was such a hostile person.

Second, sure, they pay our salary, but they do not OWN me. I am not their slave to be whipped, demeaned, demoralized, etc. Again, everyone will respect me in MY home. Period. I give respect (usually laced with a ton of sugar and sweetness). SO I expect other to respect me. If you don't, I am channeling my inner Judy and saying "Next..." (which is similar to what you said). But I also have the right to do the "OMG! You will NOT believe what someone just said to me". I helps us to not feel like we're all alone. I stared to think it was ME. Then I came on here and realized, nope, it's not me because it happens to so many others.
I think it's normal for people, even people who love their jobs, to complain about their job and the people they work with to other people in their field. If we were all going to work somewhere, we would all be moaning and groaning around the water cooler or at the smoking corner or in the bathroom. Since parents can be one of the biggest road blocks to having a good day, it's not surprising that they get talked about a lot. Just like I'm sure that if customers had heard the McDonalds employees that I used to work with talking to eachother out back at the smoking corner about the behavior of customers, they wouldn't like it either. That doesn't mean it's all that unusual or unexpected or that the McDonalds employees aren't excellent employees when their inside with the customers or that childcare providers aren't excellent at their jobs. Here's another one where you and I agree professionalmom. It's nice still being able to have coworkers to complain to even though I don't GO to work.
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judytrickett 03:45 AM 06-15-2010
Originally Posted by HeatherB:
Originally Posted by judytrickett:
Like being made to clean up after yourself, showing empathy for your friends, taking personal responsibility.
That is also being taught in my home too! But come on a 6yo in time out for 45 minutes.... i dare you since you are so up front... ask all your parents if they would agree with this? I bet they wont!
You've not been reading my responses. I said time out's DON'T work. I said a time out for a 6 yr old is especially ridiculous. I never said I would put a 6 yr old in a time out for ANY amount of time. That would be sheer stupidity if you ask me. Why would I do something that is ineffective?

And, I also said that I don't have behavioural problems in my daycare. Why? Because what I do WORKS and I don't have to lay a hand on them.
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judytrickett 03:50 AM 06-15-2010
Originally Posted by professionalmom:
I know you were asking Judy, but maybe I can explain. I don't think anyone is attacking your position. If it works for you - GREAT!! Go for it!! But there are some instances where is does not work. I don't think Nannyde, Judy, or I (at least I know I have never) have ever said that we spank or swat our daycare kids. The law tells me I can't, so I don't. But the law does NOT tell me what I can or cannot do when it comes to the child(ren) a gave life to. Those are MY children and I am the one (along with their dad/my hubby) charged with raising them to be productive, caring, responsible adults.

The reason some of us may sound defensive is because the people who oppose the occasional swat, like to make the rest of us out to vile, vicious, evil creatures, instead of saying, "ok, you have your way, I have mine." And with these types of people, they are trying to have any and all forms of swatting outlawed and make us criminals for trying to discipline/teach our children. Basically, it is a way to take away our fundamental right to raise and parent our children as we see fit. Now, I am NOT talking about giving a child 5 or more hits, or hitting daily (or even weekly), or using a belt/brush/board/etc, I am talking about 1 swat, on the tushie (usually through a diaper or pull-up), once in a great while. Yet, that opinion gets the "I don't understand how you could have a license" comments (not pointed at any comment made on this thread, this is quoting comments made in general). Why? Because we have a different viewpoint?

Also, I think that for the DC providers who support a parent's right to swat or spank (AGAIN, NOT ABUSE), it is because many parents are so terrified to hit in any manner, they have lost control of their kids. My though is if you don't want to spank, swat, etc - great, but you better have an alternative that is effective for the child. It sounds like you do, so great, kudos, congrats. But if the alternatives do not work for some children, don't judge us as abusive. That's all we are saying.
Yeah. ALL THAT above in relation to MY kids! Well, said.

Now, if you take that above and combine it with the OP her questions basically asked what could she do to control this kids's behaviour because a mom asked her to give a child time outs and they were not working. She was asking for ALTERNATIVES and we gave them to her.
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nannyde 04:34 AM 06-15-2010
Originally Posted by fctjc1979:
Heather, I believe Judytrickett also thought a 45 minute time out was ridiculous -- for different reasons than you, obviously, but still ridiculous. Nowhere did she advocate a 45 minute timeout.
I don't think a 45 minute time out is rediculous for that crime. I've never been in that position but off the top of my head I would think 45 minutes would be a good amount of time to get the child completely calm. BUT... that would be phase ONE of the consequence to the kid. It may take 45 minutes to deal with the victim, de escalate the kids, restore order and get everyone back to their jazz and the phone call to the parent for a plan. So yeah... I might do 45 minutes. After the separation with nothing to do then we would get to the business of the consequence which would be way worse than 45 minutes of me time on a chair away from the kids.

I know my son's school does separation and head on the desk in the office detention room for way longer than that for high crimes. They don't use timers. I've been up to my kids school and in the office to know how that goes. Seen it with my own two eyes. There's no minute for every year going on in his school.

I can just see how that would work with the teachers. Some kid pummels another kid in the class and is sent to the office. The office does six/seven minutes of a kid sitting in time out... has a "why did you do it and what will you do next time conversation"... and then the kid appears right back in the class in a grand total of ten/twelve minutes? LMAO Yeah that would really work.

My objection with time out isn't the concept of removing the child and making him stay away for a time with nothing to do. My objection is the minute for every year. I don't know who came up with that idea but I can assure you the reason it became popular was because it's so fast. I can see it possibly working with children who are submissive and behave well for the majority of the time. I can see it working for really minor crimes like taking something from someone, excessive tattling, stalling on cleaning toys, or hoarding toys. What I can't see it working for is high crimes that involve out of control kids getting violent, disrepectful to adults, and having consistent dangerous behavior.
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nannyde 04:39 AM 06-15-2010
[quote=judytrickett;32444]
Originally Posted by HeatherB:

You've not been reading my responses. I said time out's DON'T work. I said a time out for a 6 yr old is especially ridiculous. I never said I would put a 6 yr old in a time out for ANY amount of time. That would be sheer stupidity if you ask me. Why would I do something that is ineffective?

And, I also said that I don't have behavioural problems in my daycare. Why? Because what I do WORKS and I don't have to lay a hand on them.
Don't you think the issue with time out is the TIME part of it?
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melissa ann 05:06 AM 06-15-2010
IMO, timeouts don't work. I had to seperate dck and my own for a spell. When they hit, shove, kick someone I do put them at the kitchen table and have them do puzzles, color, etc. When the incident happens, I first tell them sit at the table, then I go to the "victim" to make sure they are okay. Then I go back to the other child and ask them what they did, why they did it, is it acceptable, would they want someone do that to them, etc. Then I give them the puzzles, coloring books, etc. After 30 mins or so, I will talk to them again, asking if they want to apologize to their "victim", behave if they want to join the other kids, etc.
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Daycare Mommy 05:13 AM 06-15-2010
I just ended up terming a 6 yo boy and time out did nothing for him either. (I do use it on my younger kids btw so this isn't a personal attack on anyones methods) The only thing that made him even pause to think was removing privelidges.

I'd tell him that playing with/near the other children is a privelidge and he has to earn it by following the rules. If he doesn't he will spend a lot of time at the kitchen table working by himself. I'd keep the table activities pretty dull, and have more interesting stuff going on with the rest of the group. Like he'd get crayons and paper, while the rest of the group worked on a fun craft or painting. And like nanny said, snacks would be greener than usual as well. The idea is for him to realize he's missing out because he misbehaved; that he did it to himself.

If he can't play with the others without being violent, then I think that removing that privelidge of being around others is an appropriate consequence. If he's flinging toys all over the room, then the same. He is removed from the toy area and limited to crayons and paper.

I also respectfully disagree about making him your helper as a consequence (if that is what you meant). That is a reward over here. Now if he walks in the door and it's a new day and he has done nothing wrong today, then maybe that might help. It's something for him to feel good about, helping instead of hurting, but not after he's hit someone. But I'd be sure to involve the others who behave every day too. I wouldn't want just the squeaky wheel to get the grease.

Now if this (or whatever method you go with) ends up not working after a reasonable amount of time I'd term him. It's not fair to the other kids to have to live in fear and be smacked randomly like that. If the money really worries you perhaps the mom (since he's been booted before from other daycares) will look for just a spot just for him since it's hard to find a place for multiple kids like that. And he is older, perhaps a summer program for school-agers and then this fall a before and after program. Just a thought. Good luck with everything, Sahm2three.
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nannyde 05:37 AM 06-15-2010
Originally Posted by Daycare Mommy:
Now if this (or whatever method you go with) ends up not working after a reasonable amount of time I'd term him. It's not fair to the other kids to have to live in fear and be smacked randomly like that. If the money really worries you perhaps the mom (since he's been booted before from other daycares) will look for just a spot just for him since it's hard to find a place for multiple kids like that. And he is older, perhaps a summer program for school-agers and then this fall a before and after program. Just a thought. Good luck with everything, Sahm2three.
I think a common thing that happens when a parent has a sib group is that the lure of big check from all of them is what keeps the provider going with the one who is really bad. It's a heck of a leverage when they have so much of your income. Basically this kid holds the power to devestate this family financially. It's a very powerful position to be in.

The Mom has most likely learned that what keeps the kid IN a day care for any length of time is the pay from the other three. Having her JUST remove the child and put him into another situation will not work because she will have no leverage to get them to continue to deal with his stuff. The money from the other kids is her power in the relationship.

The Mom is always going to be able to find providers willing to take this big of a paycheck. I'm guessing these kids are state paid. If I'm correct then the salary to the provider for four kids (specially in the summer) is more than the Mom makes in her job. Essentially the Mom has an employee who makes more than she does. This is another power position. You can get a "deal with it... you make more than me... attitude".

The only time the Mom may be humble is when she might have to leave work TODAY to deal with the kid. That would result in a "put him in time out for the rest of the day" so that she doesn't have to deal with it TODAY. She's probably pretty certain she will find care for them quickly but not in an hour. She can go thru providers like paper towels because so many people are low on kids or out of work. It doesn't give much incentive to DEAL with the kid when you have that kind of money backing your switching care.

That's just my guess though.
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professionalmom 05:38 AM 06-15-2010
Yesterday, I mentioned a link between soft discipline and crime. Then I got a PM from another poster, requesting studies and statistics on that. Well, I finished my degree in criminal justice over 5 years ago, so the research I did in college is a little aged. I stayed up WAY past my bedtime so I could do some quick searches to find recent data. I replied to the PM and got a response that I should post it here so everyone can see. So here it is:

"Ok. So now I finally got a couple of minutes to sit down and respond to your question about the research on spanking. First, I completed my degree in 2005, so the research I did back then is a little aged now. So, I thought I'd try to find current research. I found the following articles which cite specific studies:

http://www.newsmax.com/US/spanking-s...1/07/id/345669
http://www.nospank.net/nytimes2.htm
http://www.savvydaddy.com/content/si...spanking-thing

Basically, the overall theme is that the US has some kind of agenda and refuses to print the pro-spanking research findings, but other countries, like Britain, eat up those results.

As for the people (police officers, correctional officers, etc) that I went to school with - almost every single one is pro-spanking. As many of them have told me, "If the parents don't want to teach them right from wrong, then I will when they get to me later." Please, please, please, go ahead and try to find a cop who doesn't believe in the occasional swat. Even if you can find 1, you will have to go through 100 to find that 1. I can almost guarantee it. After all, these are the people who deal with the out-of-control, never-had-to-deal-with-consequences thugs.

Here's another thought: maybe spanking is not perfect or ideal, but I think that when it is used properly, it is the lesser of the 2 evils (swat at age 3 vs. a 5 year sentence at age 17). I think the swat is more humane. But that's me. Of course, I would rather give my child a swat while (s)he is young than have my child tell me that (s)he was just raped in prison.

Also, try to remember back a few decades (if you're old enough, like I am), were you terrified to go to school because the kid you smirked at yesterday may be back with a gun? No! Schools were safe havens only a few decades ago. Not anymore. Thanks to a few school shootings (by students), there are metal detectors in schools. What is different between the students who kill their classmates in those school shootings and our fellow classmates from only a few years back? Access to guns? No, guns were even more accessible when I was a kid. More violence on tv? Maybe. But some say Tom & Jerry was too violent. So, we had violence on tv too. I suggest that the biggest trend is the change in society's view on corporal punishment. Once we went soft, the kids lost control. You don't need a study to know that, just look at the school shootings, the rise in adolescent violence, and age of the perpetrators (younger than ever).

Do we really need studies and statistics to tell us that spanking can be effective (when use correctly and in conjunction with other techniques) when we, our parents, and our grandparents were spanked, yet none of us would have even considered the idea of taking a gun to school? Are we so incapable of using common sense that we need to have studies to substantiate every thought or action, no matter what common sense tells us? We can't think for ourselves and we need a sheltered 20 year old college student to do a study and tell us what to think and believe?

One thing studies and statistics can't show you is the common sense of a situation. Plus, every study is backed ($$) and performed by someone with an agenda and a hypothesis that (s)he is trying to prove or disprove.

Lastly: none of us WANT to spank, but in some cases, it really is the responsible thing.

I'm sorry this is so long. It's way past my bedtime but I am passionate about a parent being able to discipline as (s)he sees fit as long as it doesn't cross the line into abuse. Anything else would be a further deprivation of fundamental rights (to parent as they see fit) in the US. And I don't think anyone should label a spanker an abuser. Nor do I think that anti-spankers are stupid. If they find a method that works - Great. Just respect my opinions as I respect yours."

Will someone else be able to find sites that show a link between an occasional tushie swat and future violence - sure. Because there are people out there who WANT to find a link so they do a study. But the study is flawed because the ones in control of the study are already biased. As one of the above mentioned articles explains, in those type of studies, there are no distinctions made between the occasional tushie swat and children being physically abused. They also do not control for other factors such as alcohol or drug abuse of the parent or other factors that may be more of a contributing factor to the future violence and criminal behavior.

But again, why do we need statistics and studies to tell us what to do? Adolescent violence has risen sharply since the "softer" "gentler" discipline techniques started to take root. Also, there are children committing crimes at much younger ages. Why? If spanking is the common cause, why weren't younger children committing violent acts 30-40 years ago?

For the purposes of everything I post on spanking in this thread, I AM ONLY referring to the OCCASIONAL SWAT ON THE TUSHIE, never beating, whooping, or abusing. There is a clear distinction between the 2. Spanking when done properly is only used for major infractions, used sparingly, never in anger, etc.
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professionalmom 06:01 AM 06-15-2010
Some other posters have mentioned terming the problem child. This is definitely a solution for the provider. And I have had to do this myself. However, I believe that the child (general to all problem children) was probably a little problem, then provider #1 termed him, they go to provider #2 and she terms him, and the list goes on. It is a proven fact that children need stability and this type of daycare hopping due to behavior problems only serves to make the problem worse. Basically we are all passing the buck and the child is slipping through the cracks and the problem is never really addressed. I don't exactly have answers for these situations, I just thought I'd point out how "our solution" of terming is often contributing to making the situation worse for the next provider. Any ideas on how to actually FIX these problems? It appears that the OP has been trying different methods and they are not working. Are there agencies that deal specifically with behavior issues or agencies that can provider more one on one care?
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fctjc1979 06:03 AM 06-15-2010
Originally Posted by nannyde:
I can just see how that would work with the teachers. Some kid pummels another kid in the class and is sent to the office. The office does six/seven minutes of a kid sitting in time out... has a "why did you do it and what will you do next time conversation"... and then the kid appears right back in the class in a grand total of ten/twelve minutes? LMAO Yeah that would really work.
I see you aren't too fond of my interrogation technique. Perhaps you misunderstood. If you look at the list of sample questions I gave, you'll see that one of the last questions is asking the child what the consequenses of their actions should be. I think you missed the part that this question/answer session is PRE-consequence. Believe me, I have LOTS of techniques in my arsenal and will use any and all that I think are necessary. I was just trying to give the op some alternatives like she was asking for. But I totally agree with you that you can't just expect a kid to behave differently if they are never given any consequences for their actions.
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originalkat 06:11 AM 06-15-2010
Originally Posted by originalkat:
Because he is school age (6) and I assume the others are younger, I would have him sit at the table away from the others and give him productive to do such as puzzles, books to read, coloring etc... I would tell him that if he can not play nicely with the other children then he will have to play by himself. Then I would do some extra fun thing while he is over there that he misses out on. Make it look natural like you had always planned on doing it and you wish he had not have hit so he could participate.

After 45 min to an hour with his own activities away from the others I would give him the option to join the group. The older a child gets I dont really think the 1 minute thing would be very effective. 6 minuts isnt very long for a 6 year old. My 5 year old daughter spent 45 minutes in her room yesterday for throwing a fit. That type of behavior in unacceptable when they get to be school age. If I would have made her sit for 6 minutes she would not have learned that her behavior had a serious consequence. At the first sign of hitting, I would send him directly back to his own spot away from the other kids. Maybe he will catch on.
I dont know if everyone read all the posts, but from my understanding (and in quoting myself from one of the first posts), the child needs to play by himself because he cant play nice with others. I dont know what is more natural than that. We arent talking about 45 minutes with his head in the corner with a dunce cap on. He can have age approriate activities at the table for an amount of time that IS A CONSEQUENCE and then have a chance to rejoin the group. I do not think I would have a parent who disagreed with that. He is schoolage and hitting is rediculous at that age.
Anything short of a REAL consequence is not doing that little boy any good. I am not doing the child any favors by disciplining so softly that the child barely notices or cares (ie 6 minuts in time-out). I am only setting him up for failure.
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fctjc1979 06:15 AM 06-15-2010
Originally Posted by fctjc1979:
I see you aren't too fond of my interrogation technique. Perhaps you misunderstood. If you look at the list of sample questions I gave, you'll see that one of the last questions is asking the child what the consequenses of their actions should be. I think you missed the part that this question/answer session is PRE-consequence. Believe me, I have LOTS of techniques in my arsenal and will use any and all that I think are necessary. I was just trying to give the op some alternatives like she was asking for. But I totally agree with you that you can't just expect a kid to behave differently if they are never given any consequences for their actions.
Crap, I just went back and looked at that post I'm talking about and that question didn't make it on the list. It's the last question on the list on the sheet of paper I give to parents to explain what kind of discipline I use. It must have got missed when I copied it over. Sorry about that. No wonder you didn't catch that.
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judytrickett 06:21 AM 06-15-2010
Originally Posted by professionalmom:
Some other posters have mentioned terming the problem child. This is definitely a solution for the provider. And I have had to do this myself. However, I believe that the child (general to all problem children) was probably a little problem, then provider #1 termed him, they go to provider #2 and she terms him, and the list goes on. It is a proven fact that children need stability and this type of daycare hopping due to behavior problems only serves to make the problem worse. Basically we are all passing the buck and the child is slipping through the cracks and the problem is never really addressed. I don't exactly have answers for these situations, I just thought I'd point out how "our solution" of terming is often contributing to making the situation worse for the next provider. Any ideas on how to actually FIX these problems? It appears that the OP has been trying different methods and they are not working. Are there agencies that deal specifically with behavior issues or agencies that can provider more one on one care?
Professionalmom.....I think I love you. Great, great post you put up earlier about the studies etc. HUGE difference coming from someone who has a degree in criminal studies and childhood. Love it!

Your quote above.....

I completely agree it's passing the buck. I completely agree it just hurts society as a whole when these kids aren't helped. I agree, I agree, I agree. BUT, it goes back to the whole problem of what the child NEEDS in relation to discipline and what is societally 'appropriate' and not frowned upon combined with any stupid state or provincial or federal laws pertaining to discipline both at home and daycare.

So, while I agree passing the buck does not solve the problem I think in a lot of cases termination is a self-preservation technique. We feel over and over again that we are swimming upstream because our hands are tied as to the level of discipline we are allowed to employ. And let's face it - kids like this need a much higher punishment - one that fits the crime. And, if we are not allowed to administer that level of punishment AND we are not seeing that level of punishment come from home and the parents then we have to do what we have to do - protect the GROUP. We simply can not have a kid in care being violent towards other kids simply because we don't want to pass the buck. It's a position of having NO choice. That kid becomes a financial risk to our daycare when other parents get sick and tired of sending their child to daycare only to be abused by another kid.

It's sad all the way around. And it's our willy nilly position on soft, gentle discipline that got us here.
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professionalmom 06:43 AM 06-15-2010
Originally Posted by judytrickett:
Professionalmom.....I think I love you. Great, great post you put up earlier about the studies etc. HUGE difference coming from someone who has a degree in criminal studies and childhood. Love it!

Your quote above.....

I completely agree it's passing the buck. I completely agree it just hurts society as a whole when these kids aren't helped. I agree, I agree, I agree. BUT, it goes back to the whole problem of what the child NEEDS in relation to discipline and what is societally 'appropriate' and not frowned upon combined with any stupid state or provincial or federal laws pertaining to discipline both at home and daycare.

So, while I agree passing the buck does not solve the problem I think in a lot of cases termination is a self-preservation technique. We feel over and over again that we are swimming upstream because our hands are tied as to the level of discipline we are allowed to employ. And let's face it - kids like this need a much higher punishment - one that fits the crime. And, if we are not allowed to administer that level of punishment AND we are not seeing that level of punishment come from home and the parents then we have to do what we have to do - protect the GROUP. We simply can not have a kid in care being violent towards other kids simply because we don't want to pass the buck. It's a position of having NO choice. That kid becomes a financial risk to our daycare when other parents get sick and tired of sending their child to daycare only to be abused by another kid.

It's sad all the way around. And it's our willy nilly position on soft, gentle discipline that got us here.
Judy, I love you too! You are so right. We do need to term this kids to protect ourselves, our children, our DC kids, and our business. When I have had to term a kid for this type of behavior, I was lucky enough to have a parent I could explain the situation to with the parent gets upset. I suggested a provider that can give one on one care. I just wish I knew of some agencies that I could refer these parents to so the problem can actually get solved. And yes, our hands are very tied. Sadly, these kids will go from provider to provider, never having stability, then going to school and getting put on drugs to control their behavior. What's sad is that for some of these problem children a swat on their tushie once in a great while, coupled with other techniques, could have solved the problem without medication. But I guess it's more humane to drug a children into compliance than to give him/her a swat once in a while.
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nannyde 06:44 AM 06-15-2010
Originally Posted by fctjc1979:
I see you aren't too fond of my interrogation technique. Perhaps you misunderstood. If you look at the list of sample questions I gave, you'll see that one of the last questions is asking the child what the consequenses of their actions should be. I think you missed the part that this question/answer session is PRE-consequence. Believe me, I have LOTS of techniques in my arsenal and will use any and all that I think are necessary. I was just trying to give the op some alternatives like she was asking for. But I totally agree with you that you can't just expect a kid to behave differently if they are never given any consequences for their actions.
Oh no I love your technique. Really I do.

I was talking only about the minute per age time out.
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fctjc1979 06:48 AM 06-15-2010
Originally Posted by nannyde:
Oh no I love your technique. Really I do.

I was talking only about the minute per age time out.
Sorry, my mistake. I've been making a lot of those lately. I would blame it on pregnancy hormones, but I'm not sure absentmindedness and wrong-thinking is a pregnancy symptom.
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nannyde 07:01 AM 06-15-2010
Originally Posted by fctjc1979:
Sorry, my mistake. I've been making a lot of those lately. I would blame it on pregnancy hormones, but I'm not sure absentmindedness and wrong-thinking is a pregnancy symptom.
I luuuvvvvvv your technique. I don't have to ever use that on the dc kids but my son... he's a nutter kettle o fish.
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Aya477 07:16 AM 06-15-2010
I am by no means criticizing any poster's opinion/belief regarding spankings but I do want to place my two cents in:

I don't believe that lack of spanking in today's society is the culprit for crime or bad children. What has occurred is the almighty dollar has taken control of everyone. Parents are so urged to work and be married to their corporate jobs even spending hours at home on the computer to do more work after putting in a 10 hour day (my hubby, sister, sis-in-law; or take my brother who owns his own business and works 6 days/week at 10 hours each day). Other families are holding 2-3 jobs just to keep bills paid and food on the table for their children. Other families are stricken with a single parent who may not be able to successfully handle raising a child(ren) and also may devote a majority of their time to work. Young teenage mothers who are not equipped with the maturity or life knowledge/experiences to successfully raise a child. Another class is the wealthy who most likely spend alot of time devoted to their careers along with social activities that exclude the children. And of course there are parent(s) who absolutely just don't care about their children (which is nothing new).

Over the last two decades, the vast majority of Americans have been trying to achieve the ridiculous notion of the American Dream--big house, luxury cars, expensive vacations, private school, the list goes on. The consequence to this is the children are not parented or supervised. Parents leave their children at home in their early teens or before teenage years because they have to work. And what will a child that age do while being unsupervised?? They will get into everything that their parents have either told them not to or not instilled within them the right/wrong about whatever it is. The children are not taught right from wrong, morals, values, being a contributing and decent member of society. And they do not have the parents' support or involvement for schoolwork or activities. The desire to achieve and have more has deplenished the time and interest for raising decent children who grow up to be decent adults. That is the true problem with our children in today's society.

The thing with statistics is you do not always get the full picture--the parent involvement, socioeconomic status, demeanor of the child, etc.

I was spanked as a child...not very frequently and it didn't affect me one way or the other. I did have very involved parents who talked with me frequently about life in general and I believe gave me a proper foundation for morals/values with enough room to be my own person. I had a stay at home Mom. My father had an arsenal of guns in the home and at a very early age (5, I believe) began teaching my brother and I the dangers in weapons and proper use. (guns were always locked in a safe) What was on TV when I grew up is hardly any different than what we see today. We didn't spend alot of time watching tv though---we played outdoors until we were forced to come inside. Kids don't do that these days. They've been put onto the entertainment babysitter so that parents can do other activities.
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jen 07:27 AM 06-15-2010
Originally Posted by Aya477:
I was spanked as a child...not very frequently and it didn't affect me one way or the other. I did have very involved parents who talked with me frequently about life in general and I believe gave me a proper foundation for morals/values with enough room to be my own person. I had a stay at home Mom. My father had an arsenal of guns in the home and at a very early age (5, I believe) began teaching my brother and I the dangers in weapons and proper use. (guns were always locked in a safe) What was on TV when I grew up is hardly any different than what we see today. We didn't spend alot of time watching tv though---we played outdoors until we were forced to come inside. Kids don't do that these days. They've been put onto the entertainment babysitter so that parents can do other activities.
I think you are right on with this. It isn't the spanking that is the problem, it is the time or lack thereof, that parents spend with children. If a parent's only interaction with thier child is when there is a problem, you just get more problems. A child who gets plenty of love and attention is not going to be damaged by a spanking, they are simply going to learn that bad behavior equals not-so-fun consequences. Good life lesson if you ask me!

Plus, I have found that more everyday interaction and guidence equal less discipline in general.

Funny, its a vicious circle. Peole don't discipline so their kids are monsters. Their kids are monsters so the parent's don't enjoy spending time with them so they dump them at daycare or grandma's or anywhere that will take them. The kids are angry and hurt because they want their parents and are searching for their boundaries...so they act like monsters!
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professionalmom 07:39 AM 06-15-2010
Originally Posted by Aya477:
I am by no means criticizing any poster's opinion/belief regarding spankings but I do want to place my two cents in:

I don't believe that lack of spanking in today's society is the culprit for crime or bad children. What has occurred is the almighty dollar has taken control of everyone. Parents are so urged to work and be married to their corporate jobs even spending hours at home on the computer to do more work after putting in a 10 hour day (my hubby, sister, sis-in-law; or take my brother who owns his own business and works 6 days/week at 10 hours each day). Other families are holding 2-3 jobs just to keep bills paid and food on the table for their children. Other families are stricken with a single parent who may not be able to successfully handle raising a child(ren) and also may devote a majority of their time to work. Young teenage mothers who are not equipped with the maturity or life knowledge/experiences to successfully raise a child. Another class is the wealthy who most likely spend alot of time devoted to their careers along with social activities that exclude the children. And of course there are parent(s) who absolutely just don't care about their children (which is nothing new).

Over the last two decades, the vast majority of Americans have been trying to achieve the ridiculous notion of the American Dream--big house, luxury cars, expensive vacations, private school, the list goes on. The consequence to this is the children are not parented or supervised. Parents leave their children at home in their early teens or before teenage years because they have to work. And what will a child that age do while being unsupervised?? They will get into everything that their parents have either told them not to or not instilled within them the right/wrong about whatever it is. The children are not taught right from wrong, morals, values, being a contributing and decent member of society. And they do not have the parents' support or involvement for schoolwork or activities. The desire to achieve and have more has deplenished the time and interest for raising decent children who grow up to be decent adults. That is the true problem with our children in today's society.

The thing with statistics is you do not always get the full picture--the parent involvement, socioeconomic status, demeanor of the child, etc.

I was spanked as a child...not very frequently and it didn't affect me one way or the other. I did have very involved parents who talked with me frequently about life in general and I believe gave me a proper foundation for morals/values with enough room to be my own person. I had a stay at home Mom. My father had an arsenal of guns in the home and at a very early age (5, I believe) began teaching my brother and I the dangers in weapons and proper use. (guns were always locked in a safe) What was on TV when I grew up is hardly any different than what we see today. We didn't spend alot of time watching tv though---we played outdoors until we were forced to come inside. Kids don't do that these days. They've been put onto the entertainment babysitter so that parents can do other activities.
You make very good points. There certainly is a self-serving a philosophy is today's society. I think that there are many contributing factors - lack of parental involvement is one of THE biggest problems. And I was raised a lot like you mentioned. However, when my parents worked I would not have thought of going against the rules (as a preteen/teen) because my parents always had spies everywhere (neighbors). Ok, so maybe they weren't really spies, but I thought there was some kind of parent network of spies out there and would report back to my parents. After all, they always seemed to know when I had broken the rules, no matter how much I hid the evidence. All I try to say is that a parent who occasional swats his/her child is not an abuser and is does not mean that the child who is occasionally spanked will turn out to be a violent criminal. That's just propaganda. There are no reliable statistics that show a link between the occasional swat and crime, with a control for other contributing factors.
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professionalmom 07:42 AM 06-15-2010
Originally Posted by jen:
I think you are right on with this. It isn't the spanking that is the problem, it is the time or lack thereof, that parents spend with children. If a parent's only interaction with thier child is when there is a problem, you just get more problems. A child who gets plenty of love and attention is not going to be damaged by a spanking, they are simply going to learn that bad behavior equals not-so-fun consequences. Good life lesson if you ask me!

Plus, I have found that more everyday interaction and guidence equal less discipline in general.

Funny, its a vicious circle. Peole don't discipline so their kids are monsters. Their kids are monsters so the parent's don't enjoy spending time with them so they dump them at daycare or grandma's or anywhere that will take them. The kids are angry and hurt because they want their parents and are searching for their boundaries...so they act like monsters!
HOW INSIGHTFUL!! I think someone (maybe you) once said that quantity time = quality children. Instead there's a mentality of pass the buck and the parents are doing it, too! My heart just aches for these children that no one seems to care about (especially the parents).
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jen 07:48 AM 06-15-2010
Originally Posted by professionalmom:
HOW INSIGHTFUL!! I think someone (maybe you) once said that quantity time = quality children. Instead there's a mentality of pass the buck and the parents are doing it, too! My heart just aches for these children that no one seems to care about (especially the parents).
I don't think it was me, but I definitely agree!!!

I've had these kids and it is such a horrible thing for everyone. Pretty soon everyone cringes when they see them coming. Kids may not understand all the why's and how's but they KNOW when they are not really wanted.
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Former Teacher 03:13 PM 06-15-2010
Originally Posted by Former Teacher:

First, sure some people do complain about the parents a lot. But you know what, I have every right to complain about how I am being treated in MY own home when a 22 year old BRAT decides to call me a f***** B**** and a C*** in MY home in front of MY child and MY DC kids all because I handed her a written 2 weeks notice of termination (calmly, and quietly). FYI - I waited too long and took too much from this DCM because I let her intimidate me and I feared this very reaction because she was such a hostile person.

Second, sure, they pay our salary, but they do not OWN me. I am not their slave to be whipped, demeaned, demoralized, etc. Again, everyone will respect me in MY home. Period. I give respect (usually laced with a ton of sugar and sweetness). SO I expect other to respect me. If you don't, I am channeling my inner Judy and saying "Next..." (which is similar to what you said). But I also have the right to do the "OMG! You will NOT believe what someone just said to me". I helps us to not feel like we're all alone. I stared to think it was ME. Then I came on here and realized, nope, it's not me because it happens to so many others.
Of course everyone needs to vent about their job. We are blessed to have this forum to vent to. And of course even when I was in your position I would gripe about the parents etc. However there is a HUGE difference between griping and just being downright disrespectful toward these people.
Now don't get me wrong. There ARE parents who don't deserve respect. And yes we all demand respect. The children demand it as well.

I guess what I meant is that I don't agree with some providers policies and the way they run their daycare. And yes as an outsider looking in, I feel IMO that the way that some providers "act" on this forum makes me wonder..how are they in business? Perfect example: when a provider complains about how she hates working her 9 hour days or how a provider moans and groans that at naptime no one slept so she didn't get her read her email etc.. Then yes, I do wonder...if you are THAT miserabile then you need to change your profession. Again these are just EXAMPLES. And again yes everyone complains. We wouldn't be normal if we didn't. I am just saying what I have been observing since I joined this forum.

It's just a matter of personal opinion that's all.
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professionalmom 03:52 PM 06-15-2010
Originally Posted by Former Teacher:
Of course everyone needs to vent about their job. We are blessed to have this forum to vent to. And of course even when I was in your position I would gripe about the parents etc. However there is a HUGE difference between griping and just being downright disrespectful toward these people.
Now don't get me wrong. There ARE parents who don't deserve respect. And yes we all demand respect. The children demand it as well.

I guess what I meant is that I don't agree with some providers policies and the way they run their daycare. And yes as an outsider looking in, I feel IMO that the way that some providers "act" on this forum makes me wonder..how are they in business? Perfect example: when a provider complains about how she hates working her 9 hour days or how a provider moans and groans that at naptime no one slept so she didn't get her read her email etc.. Then yes, I do wonder...if you are THAT miserabile then you need to change your profession. Again these are just EXAMPLES. And again yes everyone complains. We wouldn't be normal if we didn't. I am just saying what I have been observing since I joined this forum.

It's just a matter of personal opinion that's all.
I apologize for the misunderstanding. You are right that complaining about the core responsibilities of this job/career is ridiculous. I actually am very jealous of providers that have 9 - 11 hr days, 5 days a week. Most of the time, I work 12 - 16 hour days M-F plus 6-12 hours per day on Sat and Sun. Often it comes to 85 - 100 hours in a week. And I've actually had clients think I'm not flexible enough!
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Former Teacher 04:59 PM 06-15-2010
Originally Posted by professionalmom:
I apologize for the misunderstanding. You are right that complaining about the core responsibilities of this job/career is ridiculous. I actually am very jealous of providers that have 9 - 11 hr days, 5 days a week. Most of the time, I work 12 - 16 hour days M-F plus 6-12 hours per day on Sat and Sun. Often it comes to 85 - 100 hours in a week. And I've actually had clients think I'm not flexible enough!
Thanks for understanding- I do have a hard time getting my thoughts across!
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Crystal 05:06 PM 06-15-2010
Originally Posted by Former Teacher:
Of course everyone needs to vent about their job. We are blessed to have this forum to vent to. And of course even when I was in your position I would gripe about the parents etc. However there is a HUGE difference between griping and just being downright disrespectful toward these people.
Now don't get me wrong. There ARE parents who don't deserve respect. And yes we all demand respect. The children demand it as well.

I guess what I meant is that I don't agree with some providers policies and the way they run their daycare. And yes as an outsider looking in, I feel IMO that the way that some providers "act" on this forum makes me wonder..how are they in business? Perfect example: when a provider complains about how she hates working her 9 hour days or how a provider moans and groans that at naptime no one slept so she didn't get her read her email etc.. Then yes, I do wonder...if you are THAT miserabile then you need to change your profession. Again these are just EXAMPLES. And again yes everyone complains. We wouldn't be normal if we didn't. I am just saying what I have been observing since I joined this forum.

It's just a matter of personal opinion that's all.
We need a standing ovation smilie for this one! I agree 100%
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Former Teacher 05:43 PM 06-15-2010
Originally Posted by Crystal:
We need a standing ovation smilie for this one! I agree 100%
thank you! thank you! yet ANOTHER person who understands me
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Janet 07:55 PM 06-15-2010
I hate to use TO's because I don't think that they work a good portion of the time. I do a lot of removal of priviledges when the positive reinforcement doesn't work. Honestly, sometimes the energy that a provider has to expend in order to get a problem child in check isn't worth the pay. I would expel a kid that was wreaking havoc at the drop of a dime. This is a business and I have other clients to worry about. As far as the spanking goes, I wouldn't feel comfortable with spanking my daycare kids even if I could, but I won't hesitate to let the parent give the kid a spanking in my presence as long as it didn't cross the line into a beating. I've actually called a daycare dad to come over on his lunch break to give his kid a swat (the dad asked me to) and I had no problem with that. Too much power is being taken away by the government for not only daycare providers and teachers, but parents, too. I was spanked a lot as a kid and I turned out OK.
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Tags:discipline, spanking, time out
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