Daycare.com Forum
Parents and Guardians Forum>Twins Kicked Out Of Daycare
edkuyper 02:09 PM 05-15-2013
All;
Just checking the community to see what is fair here.
Our 20 month old twins were kicked out of daycare last week saying that they "can't control them anymore". They have been there for about 3 months and were seemingly doing great. We asked everyday how they were doing and pick-up and drop off and there was little if any issues. There were 5 total accident reports, with 2 being on the day they were kicked out and 2 of the 5 were observations of small bruises. I would have expected that if there was a serious issue with our kids, that we would work together for a month or so before deciding they had to go.
When they said we needed to pull the twins, they said that we could stay through the end of the month, but we couldn't bring ourselves to drop them off in a place they weren't able to "control" them anymore. I think this is terribly unprofessional and we are now glad to move on, but they are refusing the refund us for the payments we made for the rest of the month and refusing to return our deposit. This is a total of over $1,000, so it is serious money.
I am appealing directly to the care provider, but not sure I will get anywhere. They had in their contract that refunds were not given, but I was assuming that pertained to us pulling them out early in the month without warning.
1) Should I demand a refund and file in small claims court if we don't get one?
2) What are my rights as a parent in having the center work with us?
3) What justifies kicking kids out of daycare?
4) Should I file a complaint with the state?
Thanks
Just checking the community to see what is fair here.
Our 20 month old twins were kicked out of daycare last week saying that they "can't control them anymore". They have been there for about 3 months and were seemingly doing great. We asked everyday how they were doing and pick-up and drop off and there was little if any issues. There were 5 total accident reports, with 2 being on the day they were kicked out and 2 of the 5 were observations of small bruises. I would have expected that if there was a serious issue with our kids, that we would work together for a month or so before deciding they had to go.
When they said we needed to pull the twins, they said that we could stay through the end of the month, but we couldn't bring ourselves to drop them off in a place they weren't able to "control" them anymore. I think this is terribly unprofessional and we are now glad to move on, but they are refusing the refund us for the payments we made for the rest of the month and refusing to return our deposit. This is a total of over $1,000, so it is serious money.
I am appealing directly to the care provider, but not sure I will get anywhere. They had in their contract that refunds were not given, but I was assuming that pertained to us pulling them out early in the month without warning.
1) Should I demand a refund and file in small claims court if we don't get one?
2) What are my rights as a parent in having the center work with us?
3) What justifies kicking kids out of daycare?
4) Should I file a complaint with the state?
Thanks
EntropyControlSpecialist 02:13 PM 05-15-2013
1. You signed a contract that states refunds are not given. You assumed it meant one thing when it seems broad enough to cover every instance of asking for a refund. Never sign a contract without asking questions about it if you don't fully understand it!
2. They informed you that you could still bring them until the end of their termination period, thus not refusing to provide care. They are still offering to work for the money they were given for tuition.
I don't think you will find any judge that will tell the daycare center to refund your money.
Terminating childcare arrangements can be for a variety of reasons. I can terminate care if there is a violation of contract or parent handbook by parent, NSF Check, failure to pay fees in accordance to the contract, parent/provider differences, child behavior. These things are listed in a termination form I have used before and I check one off. Or, I will simply write a very direct letter stating when the last day in care is. Providers don't necessarily have to give any reason at all. I, personally, have terminated due to violence and a failure to abide by policies.
Why would you file a complaint with the state? You took your children there for two months and were satisfied with care. Filing with the state would be because your feelings are hurt and you are seeking revenge. They did nothing unsafe or against the law.
2. They informed you that you could still bring them until the end of their termination period, thus not refusing to provide care. They are still offering to work for the money they were given for tuition.
I don't think you will find any judge that will tell the daycare center to refund your money.
Terminating childcare arrangements can be for a variety of reasons. I can terminate care if there is a violation of contract or parent handbook by parent, NSF Check, failure to pay fees in accordance to the contract, parent/provider differences, child behavior. These things are listed in a termination form I have used before and I check one off. Or, I will simply write a very direct letter stating when the last day in care is. Providers don't necessarily have to give any reason at all. I, personally, have terminated due to violence and a failure to abide by policies.
Why would you file a complaint with the state? You took your children there for two months and were satisfied with care. Filing with the state would be because your feelings are hurt and you are seeking revenge. They did nothing unsafe or against the law.
Willow 02:31 PM 05-15-2013
I agree with ECS.
Unfortunately when you signed the contract it was what it was from that point on. If they had terminated effective immediately then the rules about refunding may not have applied. Not bring them back was an understandable choice, but a choice you made none the less.
They technically didn't kick them out by giving you the option to stay a month. Sometimes kids aren't a good fit and providers are right in ending care if that happens. It doesn't mean they don't care about your kids or your family, it just means they believe somewhere else might be better suited to meet your needs than they are.
You can sure try taking them to court but the contract being what it is and the offer they extended it'll likely be a wash for you.
Filing reports with the state about contractual disagreements aren't going to get you far. The ones they'll actually investigate mainly revolve around issues with the quality of care provided. The state can't make them refund your money and it won't add any sort of "nicks" on their record. I don't at all think it'll net you the results you're after.
Unfortunately when you signed the contract it was what it was from that point on. If they had terminated effective immediately then the rules about refunding may not have applied. Not bring them back was an understandable choice, but a choice you made none the less.
They technically didn't kick them out by giving you the option to stay a month. Sometimes kids aren't a good fit and providers are right in ending care if that happens. It doesn't mean they don't care about your kids or your family, it just means they believe somewhere else might be better suited to meet your needs than they are.
You can sure try taking them to court but the contract being what it is and the offer they extended it'll likely be a wash for you.
Filing reports with the state about contractual disagreements aren't going to get you far. The ones they'll actually investigate mainly revolve around issues with the quality of care provided. The state can't make them refund your money and it won't add any sort of "nicks" on their record. I don't at all think it'll net you the results you're after.
blandino 04:16 PM 05-15-2013
The financial issue would all depend on what your contract states. If you are required to pay a 2 week notice, then to they should be able to hold a maximum of two weeks of your tuition. Which based on today's date, seems to make sense that you would be required to pay through the end of the month - even if you turned around and gave a two week notice (or whatever notice is required per your contract). You would be in the same place
However, if protocol is followed - and the proper notice is given and that time frame is paid for, your deposit should be refunded. As long as it was a refundable deposit. If it was a 2 week deposit, and was to be applied to your last two weeks - you should be getting a refund of some sort - because your have pre-paid for those two weeks.
Your children's behavior is not going to become worse in the next two weeks, and they have been safe and unharmed at the daycare thus far. The fact that they are "not able to control them", has very little to do with their safety, but is probably more of a concern for the safety of others. At 20 months it isn't a problem with not being able to control them, it is more of the time and energy required to control them. They aren't in danger by being at the daycare for their final 2 weeks. You weren't going to pull them before, and the daycare's "unprofessionalism" not it's quality of care, is why you are wanting to remove them, so there really isn't a leg to stand on as far as feeling that your children need to be out of care there immediately.
I would look into the details regarding their refund policy. Maybe you will receive your deposit back, once your children are officially unenrolled. As far as filing a complaint with the state, Typically licensing agencies will only handle issues that involve non-compliances with state regulations - not business matters. The only "rules" for the business side of a daycare are what is in your contract.
However, if protocol is followed - and the proper notice is given and that time frame is paid for, your deposit should be refunded. As long as it was a refundable deposit. If it was a 2 week deposit, and was to be applied to your last two weeks - you should be getting a refund of some sort - because your have pre-paid for those two weeks.
Your children's behavior is not going to become worse in the next two weeks, and they have been safe and unharmed at the daycare thus far. The fact that they are "not able to control them", has very little to do with their safety, but is probably more of a concern for the safety of others. At 20 months it isn't a problem with not being able to control them, it is more of the time and energy required to control them. They aren't in danger by being at the daycare for their final 2 weeks. You weren't going to pull them before, and the daycare's "unprofessionalism" not it's quality of care, is why you are wanting to remove them, so there really isn't a leg to stand on as far as feeling that your children need to be out of care there immediately.
I would look into the details regarding their refund policy. Maybe you will receive your deposit back, once your children are officially unenrolled. As far as filing a complaint with the state, Typically licensing agencies will only handle issues that involve non-compliances with state regulations - not business matters. The only "rules" for the business side of a daycare are what is in your contract.
Heidi 04:37 PM 05-15-2013
I agree with the others as far as the contract stuff.
I do understand that your feelings are probably very hurt. Hearing that your children were somehow a problem is not fun. I'm sorry that you're going through that.
As a provider, I have had to terminate children due to behavioral issues. It's not easy, I will tell you that. It's a very hard thing to tell someone. In my own situation, it was a family of 4 children, ages 4,3, and 22 month old twins. I had a small group of 5, and since they were 4 of those kids, all the family "baggage" came with them. There was lots of sib stuff, but the hardest part was that the older two tantrumed, kicked, hit, spit, etc (at me). Once the twins started behaving the same way, I realized that it was too much for me.
Now, had they gone to a center with multiple classrooms (they didn't and were kicked out of 2 more daycares in the last year), MAYBE the staff could have handled the situation. Splittting them up would have changed the dynamics, and having other less violence-prone children modeling positive behaviors and more than one staff person MIGHT have helped. I'll never know.
I'm not saying your kiddos are like the above children. But, I have seen that twin dynamic a few times; where the energy level of 2 children is the intensity of 6 others, kwim?
I would continue to send the kids for the termination period (you know they are safe, if not adored, they'll be ok). Then, do your research. Find a place, and communicate openly with them. Don't whitewash anything, and be ready to be very proactive on dealing with any behaviors. Ask questions, too. How are they going to communicate with you? Will they be forthcomming with problems?
I would also sit down with the teacher or director of where they are leaving and ask them for specifics. Not in a confrontational way, but you need information. What, exactly, happened? You feel blindsided, and you need some information so that you can help your children adjust better the next time.
Good luck to you!
I do understand that your feelings are probably very hurt. Hearing that your children were somehow a problem is not fun. I'm sorry that you're going through that.
As a provider, I have had to terminate children due to behavioral issues. It's not easy, I will tell you that. It's a very hard thing to tell someone. In my own situation, it was a family of 4 children, ages 4,3, and 22 month old twins. I had a small group of 5, and since they were 4 of those kids, all the family "baggage" came with them. There was lots of sib stuff, but the hardest part was that the older two tantrumed, kicked, hit, spit, etc (at me). Once the twins started behaving the same way, I realized that it was too much for me.
Now, had they gone to a center with multiple classrooms (they didn't and were kicked out of 2 more daycares in the last year), MAYBE the staff could have handled the situation. Splittting them up would have changed the dynamics, and having other less violence-prone children modeling positive behaviors and more than one staff person MIGHT have helped. I'll never know.
I'm not saying your kiddos are like the above children. But, I have seen that twin dynamic a few times; where the energy level of 2 children is the intensity of 6 others, kwim?
I would continue to send the kids for the termination period (you know they are safe, if not adored, they'll be ok). Then, do your research. Find a place, and communicate openly with them. Don't whitewash anything, and be ready to be very proactive on dealing with any behaviors. Ask questions, too. How are they going to communicate with you? Will they be forthcomming with problems?
I would also sit down with the teacher or director of where they are leaving and ask them for specifics. Not in a confrontational way, but you need information. What, exactly, happened? You feel blindsided, and you need some information so that you can help your children adjust better the next time.
Good luck to you!
Unregistered 07:25 PM 05-15-2013
Originally Posted by edkuyper:
All;
Just checking the community to see what is fair here.
Our 20 month old twins were kicked out of daycare last week saying that they "can't control them anymore". They have been there for about 3 months and were seemingly doing great. We asked everyday how they were doing and pick-up and drop off and there was little if any issues. There were 5 total accident reports, with 2 being on the day they were kicked out and 2 of the 5 were observations of small bruises. I would have expected that if there was a serious issue with our kids, that we would work together for a month or so before deciding they had to go.
When they said we needed to pull the twins, they said that we could stay through the end of the month, but we couldn't bring ourselves to drop them off in a place they weren't able to "control" them anymore. I think this is terribly unprofessional and we are now glad to move on, but they are refusing the refund us for the payments we made for the rest of the month and refusing to return our deposit. This is a total of over $1,000, so it is serious money.
I am appealing directly to the care provider, but not sure I will get anywhere. They had in their contract that refunds were not given, but I was assuming that pertained to us pulling them out early in the month without warning.
1) Should I demand a refund and file in small claims court if we don't get one?
2) What are my rights as a parent in having the center work with us?
3) What justifies kicking kids out of daycare?
4) Should I file a complaint with the state?
Thanks
1. You are not entitled to a refund...small claims would be a waste of time-you stated the contract specified no refunds.All;
Just checking the community to see what is fair here.
Our 20 month old twins were kicked out of daycare last week saying that they "can't control them anymore". They have been there for about 3 months and were seemingly doing great. We asked everyday how they were doing and pick-up and drop off and there was little if any issues. There were 5 total accident reports, with 2 being on the day they were kicked out and 2 of the 5 were observations of small bruises. I would have expected that if there was a serious issue with our kids, that we would work together for a month or so before deciding they had to go.
When they said we needed to pull the twins, they said that we could stay through the end of the month, but we couldn't bring ourselves to drop them off in a place they weren't able to "control" them anymore. I think this is terribly unprofessional and we are now glad to move on, but they are refusing the refund us for the payments we made for the rest of the month and refusing to return our deposit. This is a total of over $1,000, so it is serious money.
I am appealing directly to the care provider, but not sure I will get anywhere. They had in their contract that refunds were not given, but I was assuming that pertained to us pulling them out early in the month without warning.
1) Should I demand a refund and file in small claims court if we don't get one?
2) What are my rights as a parent in having the center work with us?
3) What justifies kicking kids out of daycare?
4) Should I file a complaint with the state?
Thanks
2. Your rights are spelled out in the contract that YOU AGREED TO by signing it.
3. There is no right answer here...behavior is definitely justifiable.
4. File a complaint with the state for what? What laws/rules do you think have been broken?
daycarediva 03:47 AM 05-16-2013
I agree with the PP, you really don't have any contractual obligations to a refund.
However, if there were 5 incident reports total, and 2 of those were for bruises, what were the other 3 for? I have a 3 strikes policy against aggressive/violent behavior, and if there are 3 incidents to myself or another child, I have a right, per contract, to terminate without notice AND no refunds are given. It is for the safety of the other children, if I can't keep them safe, I am not doing my job.
It is hard to hear that your children were a potential behavioral problem. It's that much harder in a group setting to manage behavior, and I hope you can attempt to see that from the provider's point of view. We do NOT take termination lightly, but will do so for the better of the child/ren enrolled and/or the group in general.
However, if there were 5 incident reports total, and 2 of those were for bruises, what were the other 3 for? I have a 3 strikes policy against aggressive/violent behavior, and if there are 3 incidents to myself or another child, I have a right, per contract, to terminate without notice AND no refunds are given. It is for the safety of the other children, if I can't keep them safe, I am not doing my job.
It is hard to hear that your children were a potential behavioral problem. It's that much harder in a group setting to manage behavior, and I hope you can attempt to see that from the provider's point of view. We do NOT take termination lightly, but will do so for the better of the child/ren enrolled and/or the group in general.
KnoxMom 07:49 AM 05-16-2013
Originally Posted by edkuyper:
All;
Just checking the community to see what is fair here.
Our 20 month old twins were kicked out of daycare last week saying that they "can't control them anymore". They have been there for about 3 months and were seemingly doing great. We asked everyday how they were doing and pick-up and drop off and there was little if any issues. There were 5 total accident reports, with 2 being on the day they were kicked out and 2 of the 5 were observations of small bruises. I would have expected that if there was a serious issue with our kids, that we would work together for a month or so before deciding they had to go.
When they said we needed to pull the twins, they said that we could stay through the end of the month, but we couldn't bring ourselves to drop them off in a place they weren't able to "control" them anymore. I think this is terribly unprofessional and we are now glad to move on, but they are refusing the refund us for the payments we made for the rest of the month and refusing to return our deposit. This is a total of over $1,000, so it is serious money.
I am appealing directly to the care provider, but not sure I will get anywhere. They had in their contract that refunds were not given, but I was assuming that pertained to us pulling them out early in the month without warning.
1) Should I demand a refund and file in small claims court if we don't get one?
2) What are my rights as a parent in having the center work with us?
3) What justifies kicking kids out of daycare?
4) Should I file a complaint with the state?
Thanks
The easiest way to give you sound advice is to know exactly what the contract states about termination of care, refunds, and disciplinary issues in its original verbiage. Please add this to the forum before providing any further explanation along with the details of the other accident reports. Were they all do to behavior? Do they implement a 3-stike policy?? I'm sure you can see why we need the contract to respond to your inquiry.All;
Just checking the community to see what is fair here.
Our 20 month old twins were kicked out of daycare last week saying that they "can't control them anymore". They have been there for about 3 months and were seemingly doing great. We asked everyday how they were doing and pick-up and drop off and there was little if any issues. There were 5 total accident reports, with 2 being on the day they were kicked out and 2 of the 5 were observations of small bruises. I would have expected that if there was a serious issue with our kids, that we would work together for a month or so before deciding they had to go.
When they said we needed to pull the twins, they said that we could stay through the end of the month, but we couldn't bring ourselves to drop them off in a place they weren't able to "control" them anymore. I think this is terribly unprofessional and we are now glad to move on, but they are refusing the refund us for the payments we made for the rest of the month and refusing to return our deposit. This is a total of over $1,000, so it is serious money.
I am appealing directly to the care provider, but not sure I will get anywhere. They had in their contract that refunds were not given, but I was assuming that pertained to us pulling them out early in the month without warning.
1) Should I demand a refund and file in small claims court if we don't get one?
2) What are my rights as a parent in having the center work with us?
3) What justifies kicking kids out of daycare?
4) Should I file a complaint with the state?
Thanks
Because they offered you care through the end of the month, you are not entitled to a refund unless you paid a two-week deposit in the beginning that was to be used toward the last two weeks of care. In that case, you should be refunded the difference. Children can be terminated due to several issues, with behavior being very common. I don't see a reason to file a complaint with the state unless your children were being neglected (in which case you would have already withdrawn). I understand that you feel hesitant about leaving the twins in a place where the workers appear to be overwhelmed with them; however, if you still trust that it is a safe environment for your children and have no other complaints up until now you may want to reconsider. If it was an extreme case, they would have issued a termination that was effective immediately. Because they are allowing the twins to stay, I interpret they are just simply unable to allocate time specifically toward dealing with behavior issues and feel that a different program would better suit your needs. What is your plan for care now? I would let the children stay while I figured that out. What you're dealing with is a civil matter and I'm sure that in court the judge's opinion will be that you should have continued care for the remainder of days you prepaid while you sought alternate care. If you suspected they were not providing quality care for your children, he/she'll assume you would have removed them prior to the termination notice. Unless there was a breach of contract, going to court will be more of a headache for both parties, you'll be out of court costs AND tuition and most importantly, it isn't going to help you get the assistance you need to work through the behavioral issues with the twins. How are you dealing with that? Perhaps a nanny or a center will smaller staff ratios would be better equipped to give your twins the care they need and deserve. I know this is a difficult situation and I hope everything works out for you. Whether or not our responses are what you'd like to hear, I hope you know that the majority of us are very supportive, there is a lot of experience on the board and we're willing to give any insight we can to help. I wish you and your family the best!
dave4him 08:59 AM 05-16-2013
I might have this wrong but are you saying the person kicked the kids out of the childcare program simply because they could not handle the children? Now I know twins, I have two little ones myself so I can see how that might be hard. But unless I missed something, why sign up to watch kids if you cannot watch kids.
EntropyControlSpecialist 09:03 AM 05-16-2013
Originally Posted by dave4him:
I might have this wrong but are you saying the person kicked the kids out of the childcare program simply because they could not handle the children? Now I know twins, I have two little ones myself so I can see how that might be hard. But unless I missed something, why sign up to watch kids if you cannot watch kids.
Because not every child is the same. Just because a place or a person provides care for children does not mean they must accept every single child. There are times when a child is not a good fit. If you have not found this to be true in your business yet then that is wonderful and I hope that trend continues for you.I might have this wrong but are you saying the person kicked the kids out of the childcare program simply because they could not handle the children? Now I know twins, I have two little ones myself so I can see how that might be hard. But unless I missed something, why sign up to watch kids if you cannot watch kids.
dave4him 09:20 AM 05-16-2013
Makes sense. Thank you
edkuyper 10:03 AM 05-16-2013
I appreciate all the feedback. We may not have a contract leg to stand on, but I would expect the center to have talked to us more or set a time to work together on issues they are having. I think we deserve that, especially since their issues weren't hurting any other kids and just falling off walker toys (twice) and playground (once). Once again, asking for feedback everyday and getting nothing of concern really made the removal decision very upsetting. Don't we deserve to be worked with a little?
Additionally, we had just moved and really know nobody in this new city. The center we were taking the kids was one of the few sources of stability and comfort we had with our move. Yes, the contract is the contract and the caregiver has the right to boot us for any reason, but I think we deserved more. As daycare providers, you do an amazing job managing so much everyday and I salute you for it, but don't forget how important you are to your families. We see you more than just a service and we should be seen as more than just a customer. "Tough luck", and sorry you have "hurt feelings" is not sufficient sometimes.
Additionally, we had just moved and really know nobody in this new city. The center we were taking the kids was one of the few sources of stability and comfort we had with our move. Yes, the contract is the contract and the caregiver has the right to boot us for any reason, but I think we deserved more. As daycare providers, you do an amazing job managing so much everyday and I salute you for it, but don't forget how important you are to your families. We see you more than just a service and we should be seen as more than just a customer. "Tough luck", and sorry you have "hurt feelings" is not sufficient sometimes.
NeedaVaca 11:18 AM 05-16-2013
I feel for you! In your original post I thought you meant the accident reports meant they had hurt other kids there...but your last post seems like your own kids got hurt and had accidents. I wonder if there is more to the story, things they aren't telling you? I would ask the center for more information because it doesn't seem quite right to me.
EntropyControlSpecialist 11:46 AM 05-16-2013
That is very strange. I got the impression that the incident reports were for incidents that your children were creating, not were the victim of. 
It sounds like they are normal toddlers. I would inquire further as to why they are too much to handle. Ask them to name some specific examples so that you can go about correcting the behavior. I have a feeling it may be them and not you (or your children) and there won't really be any behavior to correct.
It sounds like they are normal toddlers. I would inquire further as to why they are too much to handle. Ask them to name some specific examples so that you can go about correcting the behavior. I have a feeling it may be them and not you (or your children) and there won't really be any behavior to correct.
kimmills 08:18 AM 06-10-2013
You will not be entitled to any refund under any circumstances however, you may take a try and ask the carers to take your kids back into the daycare. But I don't know whether an attorney would be of any help in this matter.
Cat Herder 05:59 AM 06-11-2013
I'd be curious as to how OP reacted to those Accident Reports? Did the providers feel they were "on trial" for each and every one?
Sometimes a relationship punctuated by extreme stress can make it impossible for them to "control the children".
Maybe the provider meant "I can't control the children in a manner suitable to stop all future disagreements and dread over minor injuries."
Just a thought.
Sometimes a relationship punctuated by extreme stress can make it impossible for them to "control the children".
Maybe the provider meant "I can't control the children in a manner suitable to stop all future disagreements and dread over minor injuries."
Just a thought.