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  #1  
Old 09-12-2013, 12:14 PM
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Default Think Accident Happened As Said?

Child arrives this morning with Gmom. She brushes it off that she fell and changed subject. I pull hair back and see this. I talk with her about what happened and she tells me they have a screen door and the screen is missing. That the child went to push on the door and fell through cause of the missing screen.

She tells the mom, gmom was opening the door for her daughter (the aunt) to leave for school and the child here fell out the door onto the patio. The patio is a 'brick' porch. Ball park story but not the same. I would think brick would leave brush burn type of scratches and/or lines from the brick. None. I look her over and see no red marks, scratches, etc on her elbows, knees, feet, fingers or hands. Even if she didn't put her hands out to stop herself, I would THINK a brick patio would leave a scratch or mark on other parts like her legs. None.

The mark is a complete circle and 'hallow' in the middle. No knot. Almost like a ring worm form. I would think if she hit her head full front that the center would be the part that took the brunt. And the edges would be jagged. Not a complete and perfect circle.

I told the mom what happened. Gmom did not. I took pics and sent to mom and sent to myself in email to document the time and date. But it really bothers me.

Thoughts???? Think she fell on brick?
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Last edited by Michael; 09-12-2013 at 04:43 PM.
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Old 09-12-2013, 12:17 PM
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First OMG!!!! That's a HUGE bruise!! IMO that is NOT from falling! It honestly looks like someone threw a baseball at her. That's a difficult situation! It may have been an accident but I don't think that's from falling.
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Old 09-12-2013, 12:19 PM
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Does she mark up easily?

I had a blondie (my own son) who marks up super easily fall on concrete and his his knee and it looked like that. (almost zero bruise on the center of his knee but all around was bad) He had scratches on his hands, though.

I dislike the inconsistency in the story and I probably would have questioned the absence of scratches or other bruising.

It's ALWAYS possible. I assume dck is too young to ask?
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Old 09-12-2013, 12:21 PM
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I saw a bruise like that during an abuse prevention/identification training, was caused by a mom who got mad and clobbered her child with a soda can.

If you've got one around you should check the diameter. There's no way if she hit brick that hard there wouldn't be an abrasion, and it makes no sense that it's perfectly circular.
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Old 09-12-2013, 12:22 PM
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It is huge! There is no knot which I think is odd for hitting brick. The Gmom says it happened two hours before coming here. But that knot would not fade that fast. Like I said no other red marks. She is two. I would think she would have put her hands out or taken it on her knees too or something.
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Old 09-12-2013, 12:22 PM
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That does look like a classic head bonk mark to me.
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Old 09-12-2013, 12:22 PM
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I'd say it doesn't matter. You just need to do what you did; document and inform mom (although since it didn't happen on your watch, you didn't HAVE to). You should document only what GMA told you. What mom told you GMA told her is hearsay.

If there's abuse going on, which is unlikely based on one injury alone, there will be a pattern of documentation.

Poor thing...it does look pretty bad!
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Old 09-12-2013, 12:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Willow View Post
I saw a bruise like that during an abuse prevention/identification training, was caused by a mom who got mad and clobbered her child with a soda can.

If you've got one around you should check the diameter. There's no way if she hit brick that hard there wouldn't be an abrasion, and it makes no sense that it's perfectly circular.
YES! That is exactly what it reminds me of! I am gonna check!

Playcare- really? I have had kids fall on cement and tile. Didn't look like that and I got knots. Never had one fall on brick. Why I am asking

Heidi- see thats the thing. The child is always coming with marks on her. She fell into the coffee table. She tripped over a toy. She jumped off the sofa. Etc. I don't think the parents really watch her well honestly. I have kinda been like "hummm' when she comes in with another bruise but nothing has looked like that. The Gmom already isn't sitting well with me (if you read my other post) so nothing would surprise me.

So just document.

I am going to mention to mom at pick up though about it seems odd no scratches, etc. Kinda let her know I know something if off.
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Old 09-12-2013, 12:24 PM
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My daughter did have one similar after leaping from a couch and smashing her forehead into the concrete basement floor.

If you need to document, perhaps ask for the story again to log in writing. See if the story remains consistent or alters again.
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Old 09-12-2013, 12:28 PM
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I can't say, myself. I work very closely with a local social worker (I do a lot of drop-ins for foster care)...if a child showed up with that on her face, I would probably email the photo to her, along with the story you were given.

In gmom's defense: My son has pretty much the same mark on his knee after falling at his grandma's home this weekend (though he did have some scraping, as well).
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Old 09-12-2013, 12:30 PM
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I have seen. Lot of kiddos fall with a lot of boo boos. Never have I seen that kind of mark on a child from falling on concrete/bricks. Now my daughter took a fall in June and hit her head on an octagon end table that was in my room. We didn't have padding around the edges because dck aren't allowed in my room. Anyways she hit it hard. She needed 3 stitches by the bone and 4 stitches on the top of her skin. Even will all that the bruise was very minimal. My few thought when I saw the picture was/is abuse. Whether its intentional or not. I could post a picture of it. But it's pretty gross.
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Old 09-12-2013, 12:30 PM
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Looks more like a doorknob to me...slammed as she tried to enter.

Bedroom or bathroom since the turn lock is not present.
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Old 09-12-2013, 12:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cat Herder View Post
Looks more like a doorknob to me...slammed as she tried to enter.

Bedroom or bathroom since the turn lock is not present.
That's what I thought it looked like also.
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Old 09-12-2013, 12:32 PM
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Hey, I know we are mandated reporters, but we do have to use caution when jumping to conclusions.

OP, we know you don't like GMA, and obviously with good cause, but I would be careful about get too excited about one head bump. It IS a nasty one, I'll admit, but it's still only one injury.

I hope your day has gotten better than when it started.
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Old 09-12-2013, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cat Herder View Post
Looks more like a doorknob to me...slammed as she tried to enter.

Bedroom or bathroom since the turn lock is not present.

I could see it being a door knob too, but doors move. So the door would have to be shut and her run into the door??? I can get pretty passionate about kids getting unusually marks. I had a child that always came with a new bumb, little bruise, exc. nothing to big. I didn't worry about it to much. It turned out the step father was abusive. It had been going on for a few months. The step father got very violent one night and broke the child's arm. I still regret not reporting it sooner. I should have listened to my gut.

Also I would rather report it and be wrong then not report it and the child continue to be hurt.

Last edited by lovemylife; 09-12-2013 at 12:40 PM. Reason: Added more
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Old 09-12-2013, 12:39 PM
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Ouch! That looks bad. She may have fallen and not put her hands out to break the fall - making it worse and not leaving scrapes on her hands. But I dont know. I'd just save the pic, document, cover your butt and thats all you can probably do for now.
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Old 09-12-2013, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craftymissbeth View Post
That's what I thought it looked like also.
I'd bet we've all done it to someone at some point.

I hit my dogs nose yesterday pretty hard as she pushed open the door while I was using the restroom. It is kneejerk to slam it shut.

Gma may have been embarrassed and was a little afraid it would look purposeful.
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Old 09-12-2013, 12:43 PM
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Quote:
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I could see it being a door knob too, but doors move. .
Exactly.

Slamming it would give the force required for such a deep soft tissue injury.
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Old 09-12-2013, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
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Exactly.

Slamming it would give the force required for such a deep soft tissue injury.

Just read your post., That makes sense. I am probably over reacting a tad.
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Old 09-12-2013, 12:51 PM
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Those stories are similar enough to not be concerned about that aspect: Different person, 3rd person, less/ more/ different information. Putting them together Gmom opened the door for her daughter, and child pushed on the screen door that was missing a screen and she fell through onto the brick patio.
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  #21  
Old 09-12-2013, 12:52 PM
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Heidi- Not jumping. Just kinda on alert. Just doesn't look to fit the accident. Thats why I am asking.

Ok thanks guys for the thoughts. Will keep an eye out.
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Old 09-12-2013, 12:53 PM
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There is no way falling on brick could cause that pattern.
It had to have been something circular.
It looks to be a door knob injury. I would ask more questions and if this is not the first time I may call DHS. Let them know you are taking this serious.
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Old 09-12-2013, 12:53 PM
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Quote:
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Heidi- Not jumping. Just kinda on alert. Just doesn't look to fit the accident. Thats why I am asking.

Ok thanks guys for the thoughts. Will keep an eye out.
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Old 09-12-2013, 01:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cat Herder View Post
Looks more like a doorknob to me...slammed as she tried to enter.

Bedroom or bathroom since the turn lock is not present.
I was also thinking doorknob. Is her head doorknob height by any chance?

(I do NOT think that looks like a fall on brick unless it's really weird brick.)

Is she verbal at all? If so you could ask her what happened. My son can relate stories kind of one word at a time but he remembers big injuries. He might put his hand to his head and say "Ow" "I know, you hit your head. What hit your head?" and might point and say "Doooooor" for example.
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Old 09-12-2013, 01:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrsnj View Post
YES! That is exactly what it reminds me of! I am gonna check!

Playcare- really? I have had kids fall on cement and tile. Didn't look like that and I got knots. Never had one fall on brick. Why I am asking

Heidi- see thats the thing. The child is always coming with marks on her. She fell into the coffee table. She tripped over a toy. She jumped off the sofa. Etc. I don't think the parents really watch her well honestly. I have kinda been like "hummm' when she comes in with another bruise but nothing has looked like that. The Gmom already isn't sitting well with me (if you read my other post) so nothing would surprise me.

So just document.

I am going to mention to mom at pick up though about it seems odd no scratches, etc. Kinda let her know I know something if off.
Like another poster I have some blonde, fair skinned kids who get large bumps and knots when they get a head bonk. Even when it seems as though they hardly hit their heads. So yeah, for my group, it wouldn't necessarily send a red flag for me.
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Old 09-12-2013, 01:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cat Herder View Post
Looks more like a doorknob to me...slammed as she tried to enter.

Bedroom or bathroom since the turn lock is not present.
Tjhis is exactly what I thought. Brick/concrete would leave a scrape. I bonked my son w/ the door & it looked similar.
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Old 09-12-2013, 02:04 PM
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Quote:
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Like another poster I have some blonde, fair skinned kids who get large bumps and knots when they get a head bonk. Even when it seems as though they hardly hit their heads. So yeah, for my group, it wouldn't necessarily send a red flag for me.
I agree. My own DS was a walker at 6 months so he had TONS of head and facial bumps/bruises....if you didn't know, you would seriously think he was abused.

Once he fell against our stereo speaker and got a HUGE goose egg on his forehead...It was VERY similar to the picture in this thread. For whatever reason head/facial injuries seem to appear 20x worse than they actually are.

I guess as far as reporting goes, I'd document NO MATTER WHAT but only the provider really knows the family and the child as well as whether or not she (OP) thinks it is or could be abuse....
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Old 09-12-2013, 02:20 PM
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Blondies do show bruises easier. My grandsom often looks like he's been beaten after we've been to Disneyland and he rode the roller coasters. He ends up with huge bruises on his back, hips, shins, and backs of his thighs.

You've documented the injury, notified Mom. I would keep an eye on the child for more injuries, though. I think someone already mentioned, but stand her near a door. It's possible that she was near the door and somebody slammed it open, hitting her in the head.
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Old 09-12-2013, 02:23 PM
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I've had this same exact situation happen with my DD, except she was right in front of me so I saw it happen. One of those slow motion moments when I tried to intervene as I saw it happening but was inches out of reach She took a spill out the back door and onto the bricks of gma's patio, head first (its an awkward/steep step down) and ended up with a huge goose egg that turned into a perfect circle bruise. I will say that hers was a bit different in the coloring of the bruising, it was a darker bruise in the center and then lighter bruise around the edge of the circle. The patio is all brick but each brick is oddly smooth, DD must have hit right on one vs were two connect which I think would have made a lot more scratches.
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Old 09-12-2013, 03:03 PM
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Too short for the knob. She is little and doesn't reach with her forehead.
I didn't have time to check the can before dad showed. Will see tomorrow. That bruise isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

The convo started exactly like this....
" Mom mom had work done on her teeth and 'A' hit me in the chin." (walk up to the top front door step) "She hit her head this morning and got a bonk" "The other day I sent in............" (subject change) I take DCG and brush back her hair as Gmom is telling me about something else and see the bruise and said, "OMG what happened? She got that from hitting your chin!?" "No. She fell out the screen door....."

Just the whole convo told me she wasn't going to tell me. The brushing it off. The changing of the subject. But you can't hide THAT!
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Old 09-12-2013, 03:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heidi View Post
Hey, I know we are mandated reporters, but we do have to use caution when jumping to conclusions.

OP, we know you don't like GMA, and obviously with good cause, but I would be careful about get too excited about one head bump. It IS a nasty one, I'll admit, but it's still only one injury.

I hope your day has gotten better than when it started.
I was told we must report cases like these. I would, a report that turns out fine is great for everyone.
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Old 09-12-2013, 03:33 PM
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The issue aside, I am a little astounded that someone posted a picture of someone else's child on here! I am assuming you did not have parental permission. I realize that you only posted part of her face/head, but I think even that is too much.
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Old 09-12-2013, 03:36 PM
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My daughter had a bruise almost identical in size to that but it was a dark purple, almost black. I don't think it was that color originally but it turned colors quickly. She fell and hit her head on our sidewalk. It was a new sidewalk so it was still textured and rough feeling but she didn't get a scratch. It looked horrible, do bad I took her to the doctor because I feared a concussion. Luckily it happened in the front yard and neighbirs saw it because every time we went in public people looked at me like they were trying to decide if they should call CPS. It wasn't the only time she had a circular bruise on her forehead from falling on something that wasn't circular it was however the worst. She had a bruise on her forehead most of the time between when she started walking and three years. Oddly enough I had the same problem as a child and in most of my toddler pictures I had a circular bruise on my forehead, my mom and dad said I refused to put my hands out and would just fall forward!
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Old 09-12-2013, 03:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leanna View Post
The issue aside, I am a little astounded that someone posted a picture of someone else's child on here! I am assuming you did not have parental permission. I realize that you only posted part of her face/head, but I think even that is too much.
My understanding is that most of the providers on here have signed photo release forms on file. Several providers have used the local news for good publicity, and were able to do so because of those forms
I guess I assumed that this provider is one that has this form on file.
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Old 09-12-2013, 03:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leanna View Post
The issue aside, I am a little astounded that someone posted a picture of someone else's child on here! I am assuming you did not have parental permission. I realize that you only posted part of her face/head, but I think even that is too much.
I don't think it's too much if it doesn't show the child's face. We have seen pictures of marks and rashes on here before. Unless the child can be identified in the picture, I don't think there is any harm.
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Old 09-12-2013, 03:50 PM
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The picture is of the child's forehead so I do not believe it should not be an issue. Does anyone have a better understanding of the law?
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Old 09-12-2013, 04:00 PM
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Quote:
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I was told we must report cases like these. I would, a report that turns out fine is great for everyone.
I usually think like you, Lala, but this time, I respectfully disagree.

At no time in any of my training was I led to understand that I should report every injury to CPS. I was taught that there must be a suspicion of abuse, and to me, a single injury does not support a suspicion of abuse.

I would also not a agree that a report that turns out fine is fine for everyone. A false report could cost GMA and the family legal fees, time with their child, and a lot of hassle. It could cost the OP a childcare client, and the little girl stability. Just like when our dc parents get pissed off and make false accusations, just because they're false and proven "unsubstantiated" does not make it all go away.

If there are further incidents or other reasons to suspect abuse, then by all means, OP should call.
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Old 09-12-2013, 04:13 PM
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I usually think like you, Lala, but this time, I respectfully disagree.

At no time in any of my training was I led to understand that I should report every injury to CPS. I was taught that there must be a suspicion of abuse, and to me, a single injury does not support a suspicion of abuse.

I would also not a agree that a report that turns out fine is fine for everyone. A false report could cost GMA and the family legal fees, time with their child, and a lot of hassle. It could cost the OP a childcare client, and the little girl stability. Just like when our dc parents get pissed off and make false accusations, just because they're false and proven "unsubstantiated" does not make it all go away.

If there are further incidents or other reasons to suspect abuse, then by all means, OP should call.
I agree. While one must always report suspected abuse, it is important to keep in mind that kids do get hurt. They do weird things, dangerous things, and don't have good judgement. Heck, we all know that kids get hurt doing normal things sometimes!
Also, a report, when not true and/or made without proper evidence, can deeply hurt a family, financially, emotionally, personally. It can affect their job etc. And even if it is found "unfounded" it still stays on record for many, many years. Whether we want to admit it or not, the system is deeply flawed. While no one should hesitate to report suspected abuse, everyone should be careful of reporting normal (or even freak) childhood booboos.
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Old 09-12-2013, 04:38 PM
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My concern with the photo is retribution on the OP by family, not necessarily legal rights to the image being used.

Anyone who knows the kid will know who she is and that she is questioning the GMA's story in a national forum.
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Old 09-12-2013, 04:44 PM
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Quote:
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My concern with the photo is retribution on the OP by family, not necessarily legal rights to the image being used.

Anyone who knows the kid will know who she is and that she is questioning the GMA's story in a national forum.
Fair enough. I cropped the photo. Hope the OP doesn't mind.
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Old 09-12-2013, 04:51 PM
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Fair enough. I cropped the photo. Hope the OP doesn't mind.
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Old 09-12-2013, 05:16 PM
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That's fine. Thx. I got the answers I needed anyway
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Old 09-12-2013, 08:59 PM
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Originally Posted by nanglgrl View Post
My daughter had a bruise almost identical in size to that but it was a dark purple, almost black. I don't think it was that color originally but it turned colors quickly. She fell and hit her head on our sidewalk. It was a new sidewalk so it was still textured and rough feeling but she didn't get a scratch. It looked horrible, do bad I took her to the doctor because I feared a concussion. Luckily it happened in the front yard and neighbirs saw it because every time we went in public people looked at me like they were trying to decide if they should call CPS. It wasn't the only time she had a circular bruise on her forehead from falling on something that wasn't circular it was however the worst. She had a bruise on her forehead most of the time between when she started walking and three years. Oddly enough I had the same problem as a child and in most of my toddler pictures I had a circular bruise on my forehead, my mom and dad said I refused to put my hands out and would just fall forward!
I have one that does that. He just doesn't put his hands out in front of him, and hits his head/face a LOT. Weird. Smart kid though. It would be an interesting poll.
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Old 09-12-2013, 11:48 PM
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SSWonders SSWonders is offline
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My daughter fell out of a front door onto the cement step when she was young. Her face was scraped on her forehead, her cheek and her chin. That does not look like a injury from the story you are getting. That part of her forehead came in contact with something round and hard that did not hit any other part of her face. Not consistent with someone falling on their face.
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Old 09-13-2013, 12:22 AM
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Cradle2crayons Cradle2crayons is offline
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In my experience, this bruise and lump could have, in fact, happened just as grandma said.

I've seen lots of kids over my career fall and never out their arms out to stop themselves.

I've also seen kids with exact injuries like that from falling on concrete and brick.

If, however, grandma had said she fell say on gravel or driveway rocks, that would be very inconsistent with the bruise.

If it were me, and is were an isolated incident, I'd simply document. Document what mom said to me, grandma said to me, and what the child said in detail. Ask detailed questions so the answers have to be detailed.

If there becomes a pattern or you notice any behaviors that would make you suspicious coming from the child, then I would report it.

Kids are just klutzy. It's a miracle most of them survive until they become teenagers.

When my daughter was little, about 2 1/2 she was at my next door neighbors with her friend playing in the back yard. Both parents were over there supervising very closely.

I was in my backyard and I could see throug the chain link into their yard and see the kids. One was swinging and my daughter was climbing the few short steps up to the slide. It was a small swing set, just the older metal ones wi two swings and a slide.

She was giggling and she got to the top of the slide and went to turn and sit to go down the slide. For some reason, she lost her balance and fell off the slide, while she was still standing up. She landed on her head, on the grass, kind of like in a tuck position.

I walked over to give comfort, never thinking she had been seriously hurt. The mom said she though she heard a thunk suggesting my daughter had bumped her head in the pole of the swing set. My daughter was inconsolable as we walked back home. She was SCREAMING BLOODY MURDER.

And then she got lethargic and quiet. I checked her head again. No bumps, no scratches, NOTHING ON HER HEAD.

I rushed her to the ER. While we were in the room waiting on a doctor, she could finally get her breath and I asked her to point to where it hurt. She pointed to her CHEST. my mind raced as I replayed it in my head. Se never bumped her chest. I started panicking. The doc came and x rayed her head and chest (at my insistence).

Come to find out, she had BROKEN her sternum!!!! Her head was okay but I struggled to figure out how in the heck she broke her sternum!!

It was a nightmare for the next at least month. They sent us home with her still screaming bloody murder, telling me to give her ibuprofen for pain. That first night I called the on call pediatrician and held the phone to my daughters mouth while she screamed bloody murder. They called her in some narcotic meds but literally she could barely move for weeks. We had to put her back in diapers because getting in the toilet hurt too much. It was just HORRIBLE.

The neighbors of course felt horrible, although it was a freak accident. But I do know had I not seen it with my own eyes, it would have looked like a really horrific abuse case. It turned out, according to the doctors, while her head was hard, her sternum wasn't. I guess the steroids for asthma may have weakened her bones somewhat.

She's ten now and has never had any other weird freak injury. Healthy as a horse. But I'll never forget that incident. I can even remember the date it happened !!

My point is that while we are mandated reporters, that doesn't mean we report every injury. If there are other suspicious injuries and you have them documented OP and you feel strongly in your gut she is being abused, then by all means report it.

But try to step back and be objective. If grandma wasn't in the picture and mom had shown up and told yu the same story, would you have believed it??
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Old 09-13-2013, 10:38 AM
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No. I wouldn't. It isn't the gmom I am concerned with here. It is the story to the injury. I would take another pic and show you but.....
The redness has faded. The bruise even more clearly defined. To ME it doesn't fit. I don't care if the mom told me the story or the dad or the neighbor. It doesn't click to me.

My husband looked at it and asked what happened to her nose. I looked again and saw nothing and said "There is nothing there." His comment back was "Exactly. If she fell like that on brick, not using her arms and her face taking there fall, there would be scratches. A mark. Her nose or chin would have gotten it too. There is nothing there."

I pointed out the dad at pick up that I thought it looked odd for a brick injury. He just patted her on the head and said "poor baby". Well I noted it. I don't agree with it. I do agree it could have been an accident. A fall. But I don't agree it was what happened.

BTW the knob didn't fit. Too short. And the soda can was too wide. Good thoughts though. I think she hit something or something hit her but cannot figure out what it was.

So I just wait I guess.
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Old 09-13-2013, 10:47 AM
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Poor child. No matter what happened that had to hurt!!!! Someone said it looked like a baseball. I agree. Maybe someone threw a softball or baseball and it hit her completely by accident. Then the changed the story because it was embarrassing? No idea just a thought. I didn't read all the comments just a few, did you ask her what happened or is she too young to talk?
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Old 09-14-2013, 06:38 PM
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LaLa1923 LaLa1923 is offline
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Originally Posted by Heidi View Post
I usually think like you, Lala, but this time, I respectfully disagree.

At no time in any of my training was I led to understand that I should report every injury to CPS. I was taught that there must be a suspicion of abuse, and to me, a single injury does not support a suspicion of abuse.

I would also not a agree that a report that turns out fine is fine for everyone. A false report could cost GMA and the family legal fees, time with their child, and a lot of hassle. It could cost the OP a childcare client, and the little girl stability. Just like when our dc parents get pissed off and make false accusations, just because they're false and proven "unsubstantiated" does not make it all go away.

If there are further incidents or other reasons to suspect abuse, then by all means, OP should call.
I agree. I would've called since OP said this is not the first incident.
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Old 09-16-2013, 09:06 AM
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Regarding the lack of injuries to the nose..
if she tumbled out of the open window of the door, it's possible that her legs resting on the open frame kept her so that only the forehead took the brunt of it. I know my own daughter had the uncanny ability to be standing right next to me, and somehow flip upside down and hit the top of her head. Her feet would go clear up in the air, like a cartoon.
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Old 09-16-2013, 10:17 AM
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If you haven't already, I would start documenting everything. Just last week didn't this same child have a nasty bruise on their head as well? I remember something about dropping off during bus pickup and she didn't mention it, just silly stuff about taking pics. It may have been the week before last. I have an 18month old DCB who was forever hitting his head for a couple months. One or 2 looked similar to that but usually more of an impact spot in the middle rather than nothing.
Just for liability reasons I would document and what their reasoning was for the injury.
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