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Daycare Center and Family Home Forum>Really BAD Kid...
Daycarelady1979 06:23 PM 01-29-2013
I have a 16 month old boy in my care that is REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY bad. Seriously, I'm at my wit's end with him! I can't put it off any longer, I have to speak to his mother about his behavior. Any advice on how to approach this subject or tips on what NOT to say? I swear I would term this boy if I could but it's just not an option.
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Heidi 06:39 PM 01-29-2013
HOW is he "bad"?

He's 16 months old. He is not old enough to be "bad", IMO. Doesn't mean he's not a pain in the rear, but BAD is quite a label for a 16 mo! He's still a baby! I can be a real "tough guy" when it comes to some things. Still, 16 months is pretty early to be causing too much trouble.

Maybe you were just venting because it's been a particularly rough day?

More info please?
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daycare 06:43 PM 01-29-2013
sorry, I know you are having a really hard time, but I honestly cant say that kids could possibly be "BAD" until they are older. This child does not even know the difference between right and wrong.

Perhaps they need to be shown what is expected of them and how they are expected to behave.

can you tell us what the child is doing that you consider to be so bad??
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Daycarelady1979 06:48 PM 01-29-2013
The entire time he's here he is hurting someone, tearing up something, terrorizing an animal, climbing on stuff, waking up someone, running in circles, just absolutely DRIVING ME NUTS. I literally cannot take my eyes off him for a second! He is just so naughty. I have never seen anything like it! He's not happy unless he is bothering someone else. He climbs out of his high chair. He pulls the cat's hair out by the handful. He wakes up his sister every single time she tries to take a nap. He hits. He bites.

I just don't know what else to say... I can't take it much longer

Advice? Suggestions??
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Heidi 06:56 PM 01-29-2013
ooooh boy!

Does he sleep at all?

Have you asked his parents if they're concerned?

Can you contain him at all? A playpen? A "supergate'? He climbs out of his highchair? Is he strapped in?

What does he eat?

Maybe your choice of "bad" made us all go , but he sound's like quite a lot of little boy!
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Starburst 06:56 PM 01-29-2013
What does he do that makes him "bad"? Do you actualy tell him that he is "bad" or that his behavior is "bad"? I'm not trying to be mean or change your opinion of the kid or anything and I know you are speaking out of frustration but its not right to not flat out lable a young child as a "BAD KID". Because no matter how young they are, when kids hear these labels over time they get it in their head "I am a bad kid" and then they grow up with this complex thinking "what's the point in acting good?" and then it becomes a self-fullfilling prophacy. You should try to seperate the behavior from the individual. Just because a person makes bad choices does not mean they are a bad person. You didn't give much information so I am not sure what issues you are having with him or what you have tried.

If he were older you should tell them that you know he can be a good kid but he just makes bad decicions/choices. Also their is modeling good behaviors/praises for the child, more supervision (but not necessarily more attention), and taking away certain toys/privilages. Also maybe the problem is he doesn't get enough attention at home so when he acts up he gets more attention (kids usually don't care if it is negative or possitive as long as it is attention). If terming is not an option try seeing what some of his behaviors are (does he bite/hit another kid? does he break things?) and try to find ways to avoid these problems (keeping him distanced from other kids, removing breakable items from his reach). at this age you can probably try to praise him or show him more attention/recognition when he behaves well- like if he shares a toy with some one or plays nicely with pets.

Some of it could be if he is new he is having seperation anxiety from his mom, or it could even be if he sees this behavior (or just acts this way) at home. If you did talk to mom you could say "I notice DCB has been displaying some unusual behavior here such as.... Does he do this at home?" And then of course there is a chance maybe he picked up on some of this behavior from family/friends or that he could have a special needs behavioral/emotional issue that should be evaluated by a professional.
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CedarCreek 07:15 PM 01-29-2013
If you don't want to term then I think you just found your new shadow. It won't be fun but he needs to start by your side at all times no matter what you are doing until he gets that only nice play is acceptable.

I'm having to do this with one of my kiddos right now..it stinks. But he is getting it.
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Daycarelady1979 07:29 PM 01-29-2013
Yes, he does sleep...A LOT.
I told the mom I need to talk to her tomorrow at pick up time.
Yes, he climbs out of high chair, even when strapped in. I don't know how he does it!
He eats almost anything. He is a good eater.

In the past when I have dealt with a child with behavior like this, after one or two times or redirection or separation, they get the point. This boy DOES NOT GET IT. He just does the same stuff over & over & over...and I NEVER let him get away with it.

For example, every single day, without fail, he runs laps around my downstairs area. Runs. And runs. And runs. Circles! All day! I redirect him. It doesn't work. I separate him from the area. It doesn't work. I contain him in his high chair. It doesn't work. I sit him on the couch for a mini time out. It doesn't work. I speak to him, on his level, in a firm voice. It doesn't work. NOTHING WORKS. Finally I moved my furniture around so he couldn't run in circles. His play area was cut in half. I didn't know what else to do. It was a total pain (and not fair) for the other people in my house. It seemed to work for him though. Tonight I used my super yard in a straight line to block off one doorway & a baby gate in the other doorway, instead of moving all the furniture again. He ran, and ran, and ran, and ran from gate to gate. Back & forth. Over & over. What more can I do??

If y'all want to think I'm an awful person for saying he is "bad"...go right ahead. At this point it doesn't bother me. He has bitten another child about 100 times since he started coming here. The biting, the running, the hitting, the standing on toys...it's becoming a safety issue & I'm just looking for some advice from fellow providers. If you don't have anything constructive to say, how 'bout you just skip this post? There's enough negativity in the world today...can't we at least be nice to each other on here?
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Sugar Magnolia 07:51 PM 01-29-2013
Where in your house does the running occur? The best way to prevent running is to make the area have more obstacles . Low book shelves as room dividers work well. A small table with chairs, a reading area? The more open space you have, the more running will occur. Remove things he climbs that are dangerous. Do you have an outdoor climber, or something safe he can climb on? Analyze your environment, identify problem areas, make changes. These do sound like typical, expected behaviors from a 16 month old. BUT.....biting 100 times is a super serious grounds for termination, major safety issue, huge liability.
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Michelle 07:56 PM 01-29-2013
I know how you feel!
I have a child like this but he is not like this all day , he goes in cycles through the day and I am paying close attention to "why" he does it.
Maybe watch and listen to what is going on.

Does he do it when the other babies cry? maybe he can't handle the noise

Does he do it when there is a transition in activities? people coming or going?

Does he hate it when things change?

If you can find out "why" he does it then maybe you can minimize it or take steps to prevent it
Sounds like he needs a lot of outside time too
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Daycarelady1979 08:01 PM 01-29-2013
I agree about the outside time.
I can't wait until we can get out there & play!

One thing my husband & I have noticed is that we both think this boy might have a hearing problem. I'm going to suggest a hearing test to the mom. He either has NO IDEA what we're talking about, or he can't hear us. He just looks at me like I'm dumb. He doesn't talk. He doesn't follow directions. He just looks BLANK all the time.

Thank you to the people who were kind to me
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Sugar Magnolia 08:03 PM 01-29-2013
Oh wait, didn't see the part where you mentioned rearranging the furniture. Ooops. My bad.Ok.....I still think you should analyze the area and see how you can rearrange to cut the "runway" and make it less easy to run.
Is he full time? I have a tough case this age too, he is part time and this makes it longer to get with the program. I hope I can help you. Sorry about your frustration. I don't think you're horrible for saying he's bad, but like the others said, he isn't "bad", he is just a toddler, his behaviors are just more challenging. I do think it's important for us to use professional language on a public forum.
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Sugar Magnolia 08:04 PM 01-29-2013
Originally Posted by Michelle:
I know how you feel!
I have a child like this but he is not like this all day , he goes in cycles through the day and I am paying close attention to "why" he does it.
Maybe watch and listen to what is going on.

Does he do it when the other babies cry? maybe he can't handle the noise

Does he do it when there is a transition in activities? people coming or going?

Does he hate it when things change?

If you can find out "why" he does it then maybe you can minimize it or take steps to prevent it
Sounds like he needs a lot of outside time too
Oh this is awesome advice!!!
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Sugar Magnolia 08:09 PM 01-29-2013
Originally Posted by Daycarelady1979:
I agree about the outside time.
I can't wait until we can get out there & play!

One thing my husband & I have noticed is that we both think this boy might have a hearing problem. I'm going to suggest a hearing test to the mom. He either has NO IDEA what we're talking about, or he can't hear us. He just looks at me like I'm dumb. He doesn't talk. He doesn't follow directions. He just looks BLANK all the time.

Thank you to the people who were kind to me
I am hearing impaired and I don't run in circles He is too young for a serious screening, but try this...be out of his direct line of sight, clap loudly once,.see if he turns his head.
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Heidi 08:22 PM 01-29-2013
Originally Posted by Daycarelady1979:
I agree about the outside time.
I can't wait until we can get out there & play!

One thing my husband & I have noticed is that we both think this boy might have a hearing problem. I'm going to suggest a hearing test to the mom. He either has NO IDEA what we're talking about, or he can't hear us. He just looks at me like I'm dumb. He doesn't talk. He doesn't follow directions. He just looks BLANK all the time.

Thank you to the people who were kind to me
Please, please don't think I'm being unkind! I think it was just your choice of the word "bad".

I had a little boy years ago that started with me at 20 months. Finally terminated care at 3 years old, because I came to the decision that I could not help him. Tried every resource I could, but no one could help. I got a lot of "well...toddlers bite" "well...toddlers hit" Yeah, they do, sometimes. Just not ALL the time! Same kiddo potty trained himself at 22 months.

The blank look and lack of connection are some red flags. Having his hearing tested sounds like a good start. If you're willing to be honest with mom and she's willing to listen, maybe he has a chance. It does sound like something is going on that's atypical.

If you don't want to just terminate, then be honest with the family, and give them the message that "we need to figure this out".

Good luck to you!
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nanglgrl 08:27 PM 01-29-2013
I'm going to watch this thread to see if there is some miracle cure besides waiting it out, redirecting and modeling nice touching because this pretty much describes my dear 2 1/2 year old son. We finally got over the biting stage he was in for 2 years (knock on wood). He is a very loving child but also very, very naughty (curious) and incredibly active. He was walking at 7 months and could climb over every baby gate and his crib shortly after. He can and will climb everything. I once found him on top of the fridge. He's often right in certain children's personal space. He leaves the girls alone thank goodness and also stears away from another alpha male type of our group but I have two other 2 1/2 year olds that he tries to lead around all day and he bosses them around by using physical actions. When my hubby gets home from work our children are the only ones here and he says he doesn't know how I do it because our son is a full time job.
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Heidi 08:41 PM 01-29-2013
Originally Posted by nanglgrl:
I'm going to watch this thread to see if there is some miracle cure besides waiting it out, redirecting and modeling nice touching because this pretty much describes my dear 2 1/2 year old son. We finally got over the biting stage he was in for 2 years (knock on wood). He is a very loving child but also very, very naughty (curious) and incredibly active. He was walking at 7 months and could climb over every baby gate and his crib shortly after. He can and will climb everything. I once found him on top of the fridge. He's often right in certain children's personal space. He leaves the girls alone thank goodness and also stears away from another alpha male type of our group but I have two other 2 1/2 year olds that he tries to lead around all day and he bosses them around by using physical actions. When my hubby gets home from work our children are the only ones here and he says he doesn't know how I do it because our son is a full time job.
hey...a little consolation

Found one of my closest friend's sons on top of a pile of oil cans and the home store once. She found him on top of the fridge one Sunday morning into the Teddy Grahams...

He's 19 now, in graduated with honors, football player, and a great young man, in college. Just because they are "a handfull" at 2 doesn't mean they stay that way...
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Daycarelady1979 09:01 PM 01-29-2013
I sent the mom a text tonight & asked if she had thought about having his hearing tested. I said I get the feeling that he can't hear me & asked if she ever felt that way.
Her response: He had tubes put in, one fell out. She really has her hands full. She gets tired of "spanking him ALL the time." Now instead of spanking, she shuts him in his room.




The suggestion about clapping (I'm sorry, I don't know how to copy & paste...I have really got to figure that out...lol)... I am ABSOLUTELY sure he would not turn his head. Without a doubt. No way that kid would hear me clap, especially if he wasn't making eye contact with me.

What is a good word to use instead of "bad"?
Challenging?
Unpleasant?
Difficult?
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cheerfuldom 09:03 PM 01-29-2013
well I honestly think you need to rethink your decision to keep this guy at any cost.

When you are getting to the point where he is terrorizing the whole house and you are rearranging everything from the schedule to your furniture to accommodate one kid, I think you have officially gone too far.

Its not your job to figure out every reason why this kid is the way he is nor is it safe to keep a child in care that is very likely to seriously harm himself or someone else. If he is biting this much, I am shocked you havent lost another family over it. He seriously needs his own adult at this point. You cant provide that care nor should you. While you are shadowing one kid and on him all the time, there is less and less for the other kids.

Only you know if you really think a talk with the parents will change anything. I think you would be better off at interviewing replacements and letting him go.
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EntropyControlSpecialist 09:06 PM 01-29-2013
Originally Posted by Daycarelady1979:
I sent the mom a text tonight & asked if she had thought about having his hearing tested. I said I get the feeling that he can't hear me & asked if she ever felt that way.
Her response: He had tubes put in, one fell out. She really has her hands full. She gets tired of "spanking him ALL the time." Now instead of spanking, she shuts him in his room.




The suggestion about clapping (I'm sorry, I don't know how to copy & paste...I have really got to figure that out...lol)... I am ABSOLUTELY sure he would not turn his head. Without a doubt. No way that kid would hear me clap, especially if he wasn't making eye contact with me.

What is a good word to use instead of "bad"?
Challenging?
Unpleasant?
Difficult?
"The most difficult child I have ever met in my life."
Or "Extremely challenging"

Welllllllll, obviously that's not working for her. So, maybe y'all can become a "team" and figure something out so this boy has some consistent discipline and guidance.
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Blackcat31 09:06 PM 01-29-2013
One of the biggest reasons kids have challenging behaviors is due to the environment. There must be something going on within his environment that is causing him or allowing him to behave as he does.

Either there is too little or too much stimulation. He could be overwhelmed or he could be bored silly every day.

In order to find the root of his behavior, you will need to spend some time really observing him. Find out what sets him off, what holds his attention and what doesn't.

He isn't bad. I think he is simply not engaged.

If you really feel terming is not an option then I think that you will need to devote some serious time and attention to helping him fit into the world around him in a much better way than he does currently.

If you don't think you can do that then you need to term him. You owe it to this child to do what is best for HIM.

It doesn't automatically make you a bad provider if you termed him because he required more care and attention than you can give him.

I would respect a provider who put the emotional well being of a child above her own financial needs.
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daycare 09:13 PM 01-29-2013
Originally Posted by Daycarelady1979:
I sent the mom a text tonight & asked if she had thought about having his hearing tested. I said I get the feeling that he can't hear me & asked if she ever felt that way.
Her response: He had tubes put in, one fell out. She really has her hands full. She gets tired of "spanking him ALL the time." Now instead of spanking, she shuts him in his room.




The suggestion about clapping (I'm sorry, I don't know how to copy & paste...I have really got to figure that out...lol)... I am ABSOLUTELY sure he would not turn his head. Without a doubt. No way that kid would hear me clap, especially if he wasn't making eye contact with me.

What is a good word to use instead of "bad"?
Challenging?
Unpleasant?
Difficult?
Unruly.
Sorry I didn't mean to make you feel bad. Even after all you have said, I feel sad for this boy but mostly for you. I know how hard it is to want to help a child but can't.

After hearing about the tubes, do you think mom would be willing to go have her talk to the doctor about his behavior and the possibilities of hearing loss or lack thereof?

My heart goes out to you and those providers who have children like this.

One other thing I just thought about is if mom is always sparking him when he does wrong, that makes it impossible for you to discipline him.

I had a girl here years ago that would act out horribly then say ha ha what are you going to do about it?? She was 3 and very verbal. Then she would say you can't spank me. I told mom that because she used spanking as the consequence for everything that her daughter knew that there was nothing I could do here and the reason why the behavior here was so out of control. As soon as mom scaled back the behavior really improved here.
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Daycarelady1979 09:16 PM 01-29-2013
Oh its not a financial issue at all. I make almost no money off this family. The reason I haven't lost a family due to the biting is because he bites MY child. And the reason I won't term is because his 3 year old sister has been molested twice by other people in other scenarios, and I have made it my personal mission to keep this child safe. I'm sorry if that doesn't make sense to anyone else.
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cheerfuldom 09:25 PM 01-29-2013
Originally Posted by Daycarelady1979:
Oh its not a financial issue at all. I make almost no money off this family. The reason I haven't lost a family due to the biting is because he bites MY child. And the reason I won't term is because his 3 year old sister has been molested twice by other people in other scenarios, and I have made it my personal mission to keep this child safe. I'm sorry if that doesn't make sense to anyone else.
no this does not make sense

you have put another child ahead of your own child. It is the mothers responsibility to find appropriate care for both her children in a safe environment with providers who can handle both of them. It is YOUR job to make sure your own childs needs are met, including him/her having a home where there is not a daycare kid bullying them, exhausting mom, taking over the house. Imagine how the other kids feel, knowing that this other rowdy kid gets so much of the attention and the rest of the kids have to split the leftovers. You arent doing anyone any favors by trying to tough it out. Are you willing to sacrifice the environment for all the other kids for the sake of just one?

the mom has basically said that she cant handle him and cages him like an animal in his room at home. you know how caged exotic animals act at the zoo? they go crazy and they also go from one side of the cage to the other, over and over and over....just like this little guy running from wall to wall and running in circles all day. He is being treated like an animal at home and no surprise, he is acting like one. You cannot replace his mom. SHE needs to step up and figure out a way to deal with this appropriately. Nothing is going to change until SHE changes. We aren't miracle workers, OP. I dont believe you can change this on your own.

I would have one last talk with mom and let her know that if you cant work together with a plan and see some progress, you will continue taking care of big sis only, not little brother. If she chooses to remove sis from your care, that is HER choice.

as for the not responding from this little guy, it is probably due to environment. he is left alone and unattended for long periods of time from the sounds of it (in his room). he probably is lacking attachment and appropriate communication skills which should be learned thru interaction with his parents.
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Daycarelady1979 09:33 PM 01-29-2013
I guess I just try to think positive & look forward to spring when we can get outside & this kid can run around all he wants. Plus I'd like to think that at least when they are with me, they are safe. They get love & attention here.

Tomorrow I will talk with the mom & see what she says. Hopefully we can figure something out that works for ALL of us.
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Blackcat31 09:35 PM 01-29-2013
Originally Posted by Daycarelady1979:
Oh its not a financial issue at all. I make almost no money off this family. The reason I haven't lost a family due to the biting is because he bites MY child. And the reason I won't term is because his 3 year old sister has been molested twice by other people in other scenarios, and I have made it my personal mission to keep this child safe. I'm sorry if that doesn't make sense to anyone else.


Ok, wait...I need some clarification here....

You are allowing your own child to be abused at the hands of another because YOU care more about the DCB's sister?!

You have made it your life's mission to keep this child safe at the expense of your own child's safety and physical well being?

I am sorry, but that is kind of messed up. I really don't know how to say that any nicer.
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SilverSabre25 09:37 PM 01-29-2013
Im on my nook so typing is a pita but i will respond in depth later.

I will say that i understand your mission and determination, so please dont feel bad about that. Theres something to be said for being strongvenough to be a voice for the voiceless.
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cheerfuldom 09:41 PM 01-29-2013
Originally Posted by Daycarelady1979:
I guess I just try to think positive & look forward to spring when we can get outside & this kid can run around all he wants. Plus I'd like to think that at least when they are with me, they are safe. They get love & attention here.

Tomorrow I will talk with the mom & see what she says. Hopefully we can figure something out that works for ALL of us.
but are they really safe in this situation in your care? I am not saying you are a bad provider, only that with this behavior escalating, something IS going to happen to someone eventually. you may be able to wait it out for nicer weather, which should help, but its not going to solve all the issues. he is just going to get bigger/stronger/faster and be building more and more bad habits at home.

i hope you can get this worked out, I really do. I hope this mom gets it together asap
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cheerfuldom 09:45 PM 01-29-2013
Originally Posted by SilverSabre25:
Im on my nook so typing is a pita but i will respond in depth later.

I will say that i understand your mission and determination, so please dont feel bad about that. Theres something to be said for being strongvenough to be a voice for the voiceless.
the girls mom should be the voice for her daughter, not the provider.

if the mom really cared about her daughter NOT getting transitioned to another provider, she would be proactive about making sure that any issues with either kid are addressed immediately so that the kids would never have to go to another provider.

it is the providers responsibility to be their for her own kids above any others. what about the providers child? she/he is being physically bullied on a daily basis. supposedly "100 bites", according to the OP. isnt there something wrong with this picture???
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Unregistered 09:53 PM 01-29-2013
Originally Posted by cheerfuldom:
the girls mom should be the voice for her daughter, not the provider.

if the mom really cared about her daughter NOT getting transitioned to another provider, she would be proactive about making sure that any issues with either kid are addressed immediately so that the kids would never have to go to another provider.

it is the providers responsibility to be their for her own kids above any others. what about the providers child? she/he is being physically bullied on a daily basis. supposedly "100 bites", according to the OP. isnt there something wrong with this picture???
Seems the daycare kids' issues are not the mother's priority but at the same time the provider's own child isn't the provider's priority either so no one is winning in this situation.
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jokalima 09:53 PM 01-29-2013
You could have a talk with mom and see if she agrees in having him evaluated, I read your post and I feel you are talking about my own child My child has been my headache in my DC and it ended up being that he has sensory issues and being so young he does not know how to show them or control what he is feeling. If this is the case, don't be surprised if mom tells you he is not like that at home, my son is not like that during non DC hours, but when there are kids around + noise+ anything around him that could possibly bother him he would react bullying other kids, destroying stuff and just being a very difficult child to deal with, got help from OT and Special Ed teachers and he is doing lot better now.
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spud912 11:12 PM 01-29-2013
Everyone gave you great advice and I don't have much to add in that respect except that at some point you need to do what's best for everyone (you, your child, and this little boy). Sometimes parents need some kind of wake up call to realize that something more needs to be done for their children to provide for them and I really think that's what this little boy's mother needs.

My older dd has quite a personality and my husband and I have said frequently that we think she would not have lasted at a center or in home daycare. She started throwing tantrums at around 6/7 months old (yes, it was that young) and started hitting at 8 months old. The hitting really started to taper off once she got to be around the age of 2 1/2. Her biggest dilemma was that she felt the only way to voice her frustration was through violence and as soon as she built up her language skills, she was really able to tone it down. We still have a LOT of issues with her and are constantly trying new "techniques" to get her to cooperate. The biggest thing that I'm learning is that she responds to negativity VERY poorly (including being told what to do, discipline, removal of privileges, etc.). If we add a positive spin to something, she is much more apt to comply. The problem with this is that we often find ourselves bribing her to do the most basic of things (like using a sticker chart for every time she cleans up her toys, goes to the bathroom alone and goes to sleep in less than 2 hours). On the other hand, it does work wonderfully and limits the drama.

Daycare: I know you mentioned that putting this boy in a room was probably not the wisest choice, but I can say from the perspective of someone who has a difficult child that this is sometimes the only thing we can do. I called my mom just last week because of my dd (who is now 3 yo, almost 4). She wakes up in a terrible mood all of the time and it frequently takes nearly 2 hours for her to return to normal. In the meantime, she throws things, screams at everyone (waking up the whole house), pushes and even hits people on occasion, etc. She also acts like this when you ask her to clean up, go to the bathroom, get dressed, put on her shoes, eat, walk faster when we are out and about, and when she is nearing nap or bed time (due to exhaustion). In fact, the only time she does not act like a demon is when we have given her food she really likes and when she is having fun playing. Re-directions rarely work with her anymore as we have been using them on her for 3 years now and she knows better. She does not stay in time out, spankings do not work, and I don't feel like we ought to bribe her every day to not be grumpy. When she really gets out of line, the only solution is to put her in her room until she calms down. Yes, sometimes it takes her 30-45 minutes to stop screaming and pounding on the door, but I've found it does make her improve for a few days. Call me cruel, but having to deal with a perpetually angry child day in and day out is extremely EXHAUSTING and emotionally taxing. The craziest thing is that she acts great when other people watch her or when we are out in public!

I am eager to see if anyone has good suggestions as I'm always experimenting with our dd. I can definitely sympathize with the original poster and the boy's mother. I wish all children were born somewhat cooperative, but some of us are blessed with the crazy ones . I wouldn't change it for the world because for every extreme low she has given us, she has given us an equally extreme high. I suppose it's the nature of the beast .
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My3cents 05:26 AM 01-30-2013
Originally Posted by Daycarelady1979:
The entire time he's here he is hurting someone, tearing up something, terrorizing an animal, climbing on stuff, waking up someone, running in circles, just absolutely DRIVING ME NUTS. I literally cannot take my eyes off him for a second! He is just so naughty. I have never seen anything like it! He's not happy unless he is bothering someone else. He climbs out of his high chair. He pulls the cat's hair out by the handful. He wakes up his sister every single time she tries to take a nap. He hits. He bites.

I just don't know what else to say... I can't take it much longer

Advice? Suggestions??
He is not bad- He is learning.

Separate him, get one of those gates and make a play area just for him. If he try's to get out, put him back in, put toys he will like in there and tell the other children to not bother him. Then when he can handle the stimulation of the other kids more, integrate him into the group a little at a time.

Take time to teach him, gentle touch, no hurting your friends.

Be careful with labeling a child "bad"

If all else fails, then let him go and find a better fit for your program

Best-
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My3cents 05:53 AM 01-30-2013
Originally Posted by Daycarelady1979:
Yes, he does sleep...A LOT.
I told the mom I need to talk to her tomorrow at pick up time.
Yes, he climbs out of high chair, even when strapped in. I don't know how he does it!
He eats almost anything. He is a good eater.

In the past when I have dealt with a child with behavior like this, after one or two times or redirection or separation, they get the point. This boy DOES NOT GET IT. He just does the same stuff over & over & over...and I NEVER let him get away with it.

For example, every single day, without fail, he runs laps around my downstairs area. Runs. And runs. And runs. Circles! All day! I redirect him. It doesn't work. I separate him from the area. It doesn't work. I contain him in his high chair. It doesn't work. I sit him on the couch for a mini time out. It doesn't work. I speak to him, on his level, in a firm voice. It doesn't work. NOTHING WORKS. Finally I moved my furniture around so he couldn't run in circles. His play area was cut in half. I didn't know what else to do. It was a total pain (and not fair) for the other people in my house. It seemed to work for him though. Tonight I used my super yard in a straight line to block off one doorway & a baby gate in the other doorway, instead of moving all the furniture again. He ran, and ran, and ran, and ran from gate to gate. Back & forth. Over & over. What more can I do??

If y'all want to think I'm an awful person for saying he is "bad"...go right ahead. At this point it doesn't bother me. He has bitten another child about 100 times since he started coming here. The biting, the running, the hitting, the standing on toys...it's becoming a safety issue & I'm just looking for some advice from fellow providers. If you don't have anything constructive to say, how 'bout you just skip this post? There's enough negativity in the world today...can't we at least be nice to each other on here?
These behaviors are all common for this age. Boys like to run, get him outside to run and burn off energy. I would make him your shadow. It should bother you to call a child "bad". Labeling kids is a big no in this field. I understand what your saying but you should be careful with that term. Bad is a strong word. No reason he should have bitten another child 100 times, once maybe twice would have been enough to know to separate him so that this doesn't happen again. AT this age your eyes have to be planted on the child all the time, they are learning what is right and what is wrong and it may take over and over again for this to sink in. IF a toy is being stood on, take it out for a while and every time. I have had to move my room around many times to make it work for my group or for one child that was having issues. Another thing could be that the rules at home are very different from the rules at daycare, none the less kids learn quick, just be consistent.

I don't think anyone has been negative to you here, we are all entitled to our opinions, be grateful for all the advice you are given, because someone took the time out of their day to help you, even if you didn't want to hear it. Calling a child that is 16 months old "bad" is wrong. All of the issues you listed are normal for that age. Knowing how to deal with those issues is key, and when you can't then it is time to move the child on to either another daycare or appropriate help. Sometimes we don't mesh with a child, find another child and let this one go if that is the case.

Best-
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My3cents 05:58 AM 01-30-2013
Originally Posted by Daycarelady1979:
Yes, he does sleep...A LOT.
I told the mom I need to talk to her tomorrow at pick up time.
Yes, he climbs out of high chair, even when strapped in. I don't know how he does it!
He eats almost anything. He is a good eater.

In the past when I have dealt with a child with behavior like this, after one or two times or redirection or separation, they get the point. This boy DOES NOT GET IT. He just does the same stuff over & over & over...and I NEVER let him get away with it.

For example, every single day, without fail, he runs laps around my downstairs area. Runs. And runs. And runs. Circles! All day! I redirect him. It doesn't work. I separate him from the area. It doesn't work. I contain him in his high chair. It doesn't work. I sit him on the couch for a mini time out. It doesn't work. I speak to him, on his level, in a firm voice. It doesn't work. NOTHING WORKS. Finally I moved my furniture around so he couldn't run in circles. His play area was cut in half. I didn't know what else to do. It was a total pain (and not fair) for the other people in my house. It seemed to work for him though. Tonight I used my super yard in a straight line to block off one doorway & a baby gate in the other doorway, instead of moving all the furniture again. He ran, and ran, and ran, and ran from gate to gate. Back & forth. Over & over. What more can I do??

If y'all want to think I'm an awful person for saying he is "bad"...go right ahead. At this point it doesn't bother me. He has bitten another child about 100 times since he started coming here. The biting, the running, the hitting, the standing on toys...it's becoming a safety issue & I'm just looking for some advice from fellow providers. If you don't have anything constructive to say, how 'bout you just skip this post? There's enough negativity in the world today...can't we at least be nice to each other on here?
If this was working, go back to it, yes it is a pain for a while but until he can understand better I would go back to this. He might be over stimulated. Have you checked his hearing, to see if he is hearing you?
Good luck it is hard when you have a child that grates your every last nerve.
Best-
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My3cents 06:04 AM 01-30-2013
Originally Posted by Heidi:
hey...a little consolation

Found one of my closest friend's sons on top of a pile of oil cans and the home store once. She found him on top of the fridge one Sunday morning into the Teddy Grahams...

He's 19 now, in graduated with honors, football player, and a great young man, in college. Just because they are "a handfull" at 2 doesn't mean they stay that way...
I love this so so true
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My3cents 06:07 AM 01-30-2013
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
One of the biggest reasons kids have challenging behaviors is due to the environment. There must be something going on within his environment that is causing him or allowing him to behave as he does.

Either there is too little or too much stimulation. He could be overwhelmed or he could be bored silly every day.

In order to find the root of his behavior, you will need to spend some time really observing him. Find out what sets him off, what holds his attention and what doesn't.

He isn't bad. I think he is simply not engaged.

If you really feel terming is not an option then I think that you will need to devote some serious time and attention to helping him fit into the world around him in a much better way than he does currently.

If you don't think you can do that then you need to term him. You owe it to this child to do what is best for HIM.

It doesn't automatically make you a bad provider if you termed him because he required more care and attention than you can give him.

I would respect a provider who put the emotional well being of a child above her own financial needs.
OP This is great advice and I agree and its not easy to do but sometimes we have to stand back and do what is best for all.
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Meeko 06:28 AM 01-30-2013
Originally Posted by cheerfuldom:
no this does not make sense

you have put another child ahead of your own child. It is the mothers responsibility to find appropriate care for both her children in a safe environment with providers who can handle both of them. It is YOUR job to make sure your own childs needs are met, including him/her having a home where there is not a daycare kid bullying them, exhausting mom, taking over the house. Imagine how the other kids feel, knowing that this other rowdy kid gets so much of the attention and the rest of the kids have to split the leftovers. You arent doing anyone any favors by trying to tough it out. Are you willing to sacrifice the environment for all the other kids for the sake of just one?

the mom has basically said that she cant handle him and cages him like an animal in his room at home. you know how caged exotic animals act at the zoo? they go crazy and they also go from one side of the cage to the other, over and over and over....just like this little guy running from wall to wall and running in circles all day. He is being treated like an animal at home and no surprise, he is acting like one. You cannot replace his mom. SHE needs to step up and figure out a way to deal with this appropriately. Nothing is going to change until SHE changes. We aren't miracle workers, OP. I dont believe you can change this on your own.

I would have one last talk with mom and let her know that if you cant work together with a plan and see some progress, you will continue taking care of big sis only, not little brother. If she chooses to remove sis from your care, that is HER choice.

as for the not responding from this little guy, it is probably due to environment. he is left alone and unattended for long periods of time from the sounds of it (in his room). he probably is lacking attachment and appropriate communication skills which should be learned thru interaction with his parents.
THIS. A million times over.
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Meeko 06:29 AM 01-30-2013
Originally Posted by Daycarelady1979:
I guess I just try to think positive & look forward to spring when we can get outside & this kid can run around all he wants. Plus I'd like to think that at least when they are with me, they are safe. They get love & attention here.

Tomorrow I will talk with the mom & see what she says. Hopefully we can figure something out that works for ALL of us.
THEY are safe.

Your son is not.

That doesn't make any sense to me AT ALL.
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Blackcat31 06:37 AM 01-30-2013
Originally Posted by Meeko:
THEY are safe.

Your son is not.

That doesn't make any sense to me AT ALL.
That is what is confusing me as well.

Keeping the DCK's safe is their mother's responsibility. NOT yours.

I am just having a really hard time understanding how a mother could allow her own child to be the one who is getting the short end of the stick in this situation.

OP, are you at all concerned about how your own son is doing in this situation? He looks to YOU for protection, comfort and security and you are insteading making those things a priority for another child.

Several posters have brought this up and you have yet to address this line of thinking.

FWIW~ WORST mistake I ever made in child care was getting emotionally invested in saving a child. The intentions were good from the start but the ending was bad. VERY bad.

Please put YOUR child first.
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canadiancare 06:44 AM 01-30-2013
The only thing I can add here and I may be a bit holistic in my thinking style for you but have you (or his mother) ever gone through a checklist for his environment and looked to see where his behaviours could be guided by external forces?

One of the most helpful books I ever read was called Allergies and the Hyperactive Child it is an older book but the basic concepts are still there.

Unless you are dealing with a mini sociopath (tongue in cheek) a 16 month old isn't setting out to be "bad". They are too young to make a conscious decision and it is up to the adults in their lives to figure out what is going wrong.

Good luck with this.
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Daycarelady1979 06:50 AM 01-30-2013
Thanks for informing me that I'm an awful person & horrible at everything I do. That's super!! All I asked for was advice on what to say to the mother, not personal judgements on my parenting style or how I run my daycare. Hope y'all have a good day. I've had enough. I've asked Michael to delete my account.
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Daycarelady1979 06:52 AM 01-30-2013
And just so everyone is aware, I only used the word "bad" on here...not to his face, not to his mom, NOWHERE ELSE, EVER. I'm not quite the monster you have made me out to be. But thanks for ruining my morning & making me feel like I'm going to throw up!
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Blackcat31 07:07 AM 01-30-2013
Originally Posted by Daycarelady1979:
Thanks for informing me that I'm an awful person & horrible at everything I do. That's super!! All I asked for was advice on what to say to the mother, not personal judgements on my parenting style or how I run my daycare. Hope y'all have a good day. I've had enough. I've asked Michael to delete my account.
Originally Posted by Daycarelady1979:
And just so everyone is aware, I only used the word "bad" on here...not to his face, not to his mom, NOWHERE ELSE, EVER. I'm not quite the monster you have made me out to be. But thanks for ruining my morning & making me feel like I'm going to throw up!
I'm sorry but YOU are an adult. You posted a situation on an on-line public forum and then when you didn't get the responses or replies that you wanted to hear, you got angry.

I am sorry that you feel like you do. I doubt very much that anyone intenteded to purposely make you feel rotten or horrible. I know I didn't.

I only asked for clarification about some of the details YOU brought up.

You know as well as anyone that when you share something with a DIVERSE group of people, you are absolutely going to get advice, judgements and opinions on your words/actions and not all of them are going to be in line with what you wanted to hear.

I haven't read one single post where anyone says you are an awful person and horrible at what you do. YOU brought up your own child so you really can't expect others to not respond to that.

I'm sorry for coming across as harsh but honestly I am growing weary of people posting and asking for advice and then getting all mad about the replies and wanting to close their accounts and leave the board.

I hope when you are past the anger you are feeling, you can take a step back and see that NO ONE here was trying to purposely hurt you and that everyone was simply trying to put the pieces of the puzzle together and make sense of what you posted.

I am sorry if you feel you want to leave the board because I for one appreciate ALL the different perspectives that are given in every situation.

As an adult, we can't make educated and mature decisions without ALL the details and options and that includes ones that aren't right for us or ones that may upset us.

Take the advice you can use and leave the rest. Don't automatically assume everything is a personal attack on you.

Hoping you are able to find a resolution for this issue that works for everyone involved.
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countrymom 07:11 AM 01-30-2013
op no matter what you do, if mom is not on board then you will have a hard time.

1.mom needs to bring him back to dr and get his ears checked

2.from the minute he walks in the house, you need to make him you shadow. Hold his hand or whatever, but you need to show him good behavior.

3.stop putting him in time outs all over the place. Find one spot and thats the time out spot. By putting him all over the place he's getting confused.

4. also, you need to be one step ahead of him, if you see him going towards your ds, remove him to somewhere else. You start to see him run, take his hand and walk with him somewhere else. Over and over tell him to walk.

5.its going to take time, but you need to be tough and consistant. Don't back down and don't give up. Thats what he wants you to do, he wants you to just give up. I have a dd like this, and she is much better now.

6.start writing down his behavior, start telling mom everyday what is going on. If you don't let her know what is going every day then she's not going to be able to fix it either.

oh I had a dck that age who would look all innocent and the minute I would turn around they were jumping on another child and choking them, full force.
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Country Kids 07:18 AM 01-30-2013
I for one would like to see you stay-

I have personally noticed a trend lately on people focusing on how people word things, what certain people post and others not, but in the end really not focusing on the issue in the end.

More posters are getting called out on things here lately for things that weren't the issue they were posting about and then not returning. I feel its either because they no longer feel comfortable or made to feel like they are a horrible person.

This is not a "status" type forum-we all need to remember this. We are on a equal playing field, all on the same level, and all in the same profession. The point is to bounce ideas off each other, ask for advice, share stories, etc. Not to put down, jump all over for each other, make people feel they are the worst person, not a good provider, etc.

Each of us are doing the best we can do and if we are looking for advice we come here expecting some help, not to be torn down and hearing everything we are doing wrong. It goes both ways-when people started telling a provider how wrong they are doing things, they look no better then the person that may have used the "wrong wording" on something.

Please remember, when someone is posting here looking for advice there is one of them and many ofus returning on us. If post after post back is negative is seems like an attack to the original poster-not cool.
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Angelwings36 07:22 AM 01-30-2013
Originally Posted by Daycarelady1979:
The entire time he's here he is hurting someone, tearing up something, terrorizing an animal, climbing on stuff, waking up someone, running in circles, just absolutely DRIVING ME NUTS. I literally cannot take my eyes off him for a second! He is just so naughty. I have never seen anything like it! He's not happy unless he is bothering someone else. He climbs out of his high chair. He pulls the cat's hair out by the handful. He wakes up his sister every single time she tries to take a nap. He hits. He bites.

I just don't know what else to say... I can't take it much longer

Advice? Suggestions??
The 16 month old that you are having problems with is not "bad" or "naughty" he is HIGH ENERGY and CURIOUS and this is very normal for this age. I would be looking at ways to control his curiousity with the environment he is in. Don't leave out items that he can tear, don't allow the animals to be around him, limit things he can climb on, etc... If he is hurting someone stop him every single time and remove him from the situation. How is he waking others up? How is he climbing out of his highchair if he is secured in?

If he is biting I would shadow him for x amount of time and this would be my main reason to put the family on probation. This is something that does need to be addressed with his parents.
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cheerfuldom 07:25 AM 01-30-2013
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
That is what is confusing me as well.

Keeping the DCK's safe is their mother's responsibility. NOT yours.

I am just having a really hard time understanding how a mother could allow her own child to be the one who is getting the short end of the stick in this situation.

OP, are you at all concerned about how your own son is doing in this situation? He looks to YOU for protection, comfort and security and you are insteading making those things a priority for another child.

Several posters have brought this up and you have yet to address this line of thinking.

FWIW~ WORST mistake I ever made in child care was getting emotionally invested in saving a child. The intentions were good from the start but the ending was bad. VERY bad.

Please put YOUR child first.
I made this same mistake too unfortunately. i put another childs needs above my own child and did not come to my senses until my daughter had huge visible welts all over her back from this daycare kid sitting on her and punching her until we literally had to rip him off. my daughter was crying but she didnt come to me for comfort....unfortunately i had taught her that i would take care of the daycare kids first. this was a huge wake up call and i termed THAT day. i made a horrible mistake, please dont make the same one OP
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cheerfuldom 07:28 AM 01-30-2013
Originally Posted by Daycarelady1979:
Thanks for informing me that I'm an awful person & horrible at everything I do. That's super!! All I asked for was advice on what to say to the mother, not personal judgements on my parenting style or how I run my daycare. Hope y'all have a good day. I've had enough. I've asked Michael to delete my account.
you are being over dramatic at this point in my opinion. no one said you were awful at everything you do. if you want advice on what to tell them mom, here it is

"DCM, I can no longer meet your child's needs. Here is notice of my termination of care"
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Crazy In Mo 07:31 AM 01-30-2013
Originally Posted by Daycarelady1979:
And just so everyone is aware, I only used the word "bad" on here...not to his face, not to his mom, NOWHERE ELSE, EVER. I'm not quite the monster you have made me out to be. But thanks for ruining my morning & making me feel like I'm going to throw up!
I've noticed this forum is really good about picking apart a post! It's sad that she was made to feel so bad when she just wanted help. Obviously she has a huge heart to be wanting to keep the little girl safe. It just really sucks that people can't come to this forum in a moment of frustration with out worrying if the word bad" is going to be taken to extremes.

When I first read the original post I thought, O dang....that poor girl is stressed. Never did I think.. Well what a horrible person for using the word bad instead of challenging! It just sucks the way things are picked at here. I learned it very early on! Don't get me wrong I love coming here and reading other people posts, but I ALWAYS second guess myself on what I should or shouldn't post here.
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canadiancare 07:35 AM 01-30-2013
Understood, Country Kids- however if we are all in the same profession then we also need to look out for the credibility of this profession. Caregivers need to be adults who understand how children develop and our role in this development. It is perfectly reasonable, in my opinion to question someone's use of words like "bad" in reference to any child or to wonder how someone can be at the playground for 30 minutes before a child (not even the caregiver themselves) notices that one of the charges is missing. These are the types of things that need to be highlighted as unacceptable if we are to be taken seriously and valued in society.

I do agree that at times people are quick to point fingers in an aggressive and non-helpful manner but when the community is being supportive and attempting to educate the OPs they shouldn't resort to tantrums and "I'm leaving and never coming backs" as it doesn't help their cause.
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Angelwings36 07:36 AM 01-30-2013
Originally Posted by Daycarelady1979:
Yes, he does sleep...A LOT.
I told the mom I need to talk to her tomorrow at pick up time.
Yes, he climbs out of high chair, even when strapped in. I don't know how he does it!
He eats almost anything. He is a good eater.

In the past when I have dealt with a child with behavior like this, after one or two times or redirection or separation, they get the point. This boy DOES NOT GET IT. He just does the same stuff over & over & over...and I NEVER let him get away with it.

For example, every single day, without fail, he runs laps around my downstairs area. Runs. And runs. And runs. Circles! All day! I redirect him. It doesn't work. I separate him from the area. It doesn't work. I contain him in his high chair. It doesn't work. I sit him on the couch for a mini time out. It doesn't work. I speak to him, on his level, in a firm voice. It doesn't work. NOTHING WORKS. Finally I moved my furniture around so he couldn't run in circles. His play area was cut in half. I didn't know what else to do. It was a total pain (and not fair) for the other people in my house. It seemed to work for him though. Tonight I used my super yard in a straight line to block off one doorway & a baby gate in the other doorway, instead of moving all the furniture again. He ran, and ran, and ran, and ran from gate to gate. Back & forth. Over & over. What more can I do??

If y'all want to think I'm an awful person for saying he is "bad"...go right ahead. At this point it doesn't bother me. He has bitten another child about 100 times since he started coming here. The biting, the running, the hitting, the standing on toys...it's becoming a safety issue & I'm just looking for some advice from fellow providers. If you don't have anything constructive to say, how 'bout you just skip this post? There's enough negativity in the world today...can't we at least be nice to each other on here?
Daycarelady if he has bit another child about 100 times this is not ok and something should have been done the 2nd, 3rd, 4th bite and not after 100 bites. How is the parent of the child that has been biten over 100 times reacting to this? I would be livid if I was that parent. Honestly it sound like you need to term even if you can't financially afford to do so. You just can not provide the quality care this child needs and that is not your fault. It is also obvious that you feel very negative towards this child and he will pick up on that and that is not fair to him.
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Country Kids 07:37 AM 01-30-2013
Originally Posted by cheerfuldom:
you are being over dramatic at this point in my opinion. no one said you were awful at everything you do. if you want advice on what to tell them mom, here it is

"DCM, I can no longer meet your child's needs. Here is notice of my termination of care"
I don't feel she is being dramatic at all. Reading some of these posts even made me go whoa-whats going on here.

Remember she was looking for a solution not being told what she is doing is wrong and messed up.
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countrymom 07:38 AM 01-30-2013
Originally Posted by spud912:
Everyone gave you great advice and I don't have much to add in that respect except that at some point you need to do what's best for everyone (you, your child, and this little boy). Sometimes parents need some kind of wake up call to realize that something more needs to be done for their children to provide for them and I really think that's what this little boy's mother needs.

My older dd has quite a personality and my husband and I have said frequently that we think she would not have lasted at a center or in home daycare. She started throwing tantrums at around 6/7 months old (yes, it was that young) and started hitting at 8 months old. The hitting really started to taper off once she got to be around the age of 2 1/2. Her biggest dilemma was that she felt the only way to voice her frustration was through violence and as soon as she built up her language skills, she was really able to tone it down. We still have a LOT of issues with her and are constantly trying new "techniques" to get her to cooperate. The biggest thing that I'm learning is that she responds to negativity VERY poorly (including being told what to do, discipline, removal of privileges, etc.). If we add a positive spin to something, she is much more apt to comply. The problem with this is that we often find ourselves bribing her to do the most basic of things (like using a sticker chart for every time she cleans up her toys, goes to the bathroom alone and goes to sleep in less than 2 hours). On the other hand, it does work wonderfully and limits the drama.

Daycare: I know you mentioned that putting this boy in a room was probably not the wisest choice, but I can say from the perspective of someone who has a difficult child that this is sometimes the only thing we can do. I called my mom just last week because of my dd (who is now 3 yo, almost 4). She wakes up in a terrible mood all of the time and it frequently takes nearly 2 hours for her to return to normal. In the meantime, she throws things, screams at everyone (waking up the whole house), pushes and even hits people on occasion, etc. She also acts like this when you ask her to clean up, go to the bathroom, get dressed, put on her shoes, eat, walk faster when we are out and about, and when she is nearing nap or bed time (due to exhaustion). In fact, the only time she does not act like a demon is when we have given her food she really likes and when she is having fun playing. Re-directions rarely work with her anymore as we have been using them on her for 3 years now and she knows better. She does not stay in time out, spankings do not work, and I don't feel like we ought to bribe her every day to not be grumpy. When she really gets out of line, the only solution is to put her in her room until she calms down. Yes, sometimes it takes her 30-45 minutes to stop screaming and pounding on the door, but I've found it does make her improve for a few days. Call me cruel, but having to deal with a perpetually angry child day in and day out is extremely EXHAUSTING and emotionally taxing. The craziest thing is that she acts great when other people watch her or when we are out in public!
I am eager to see if anyone has good suggestions as I'm always experimenting with our dd. I can definitely sympathize with the original poster and the boy's mother. I wish all children were born somewhat cooperative, but some of us are blessed with the crazy ones . I wouldn't change it for the world because for every extreme low she has given us, she has given us an equally extreme high. I suppose it's the nature of the beast .


ok, I'm going to tell you what the problem is. She is beating you down to get her way. I have one like this, and she is 12 now.

1.you need to get her up every day at the same time, if she is a bear then so be it, but by getting up every day her body will be use to it. It consistency.

2.as for the dressing and toileting, if you need be, then either let her pick her clothes out or you dress her. I found that I had to give my dd either a or b to pick from nothing more otherwise there are too many choices and she goes crazy. I've had to hold her on my lap and physically dress her too.

3.stop putting her in her room. THIS IS THE WORST THING EVER. Children will start to associate their bedrooms as a bad place, this goes along the line of playpens and cribs. Also, she will start to destroy her room and then what, you'll be back to square one.

4.you need to have a time out spot or area. For my dd we used a stool. It sat in the middle of the room away from everything. She was to sit there and she could scream and yell and spit (yes she would spit at us) and when she was done she could get off. At first she would get off, but I would put her back over and over again. Remember your the parent, you are the one in charge not her. I don't reason with children, she was one that you couldn't do it, you couldn't redirect her either, you needed to show her that you were bigger and stronger and that you wouldn't tolerate her nonsense.

5.also, I found that we had to have a rigid routine for a while. We had to go to bed everyday at a certain time, eat at a certain time.

6.I've been there and done a workshop on kids like her (they call them spirited, I call them something else) but its gotten so much better. We still have days but nothing like before. I also found that asking them why they are screaming works too. I would hold them on my lap and make them tell me why or till the stop screaming. Yes its exhausting but it will get better. We always laugh that dd is going to be a great lawyer some day because she doesn't know the work "no"
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My3cents 07:52 AM 01-30-2013
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
Ok, wait...I need some clarification here....

You are allowing your own child to be abused at the hands of another because YOU care more about the DCB's sister?!

You have made it your life's mission to keep this child safe at the expense of your own child's safety and physical well being?

I am sorry, but that is kind of messed up. I really don't know how to say that any nicer.
Sometimes I read and respond and then I end up posting several times......until I get to the core of the problem/issue.

I agree here with BC Why would you let your child be bit over and over again. Your sacrificing your own child, at the mercy of your daycare kid to save the kids sister. Messed up!
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My3cents 07:55 AM 01-30-2013
Originally Posted by jokalima:
You could have a talk with mom and see if she agrees in having him evaluated, I read your post and I feel you are talking about my own child My child has been my headache in my DC and it ended up being that he has sensory issues and being so young he does not know how to show them or control what he is feeling. If this is the case, don't be surprised if mom tells you he is not like that at home, my son is not like that during non DC hours, but when there are kids around + noise+ anything around him that could possibly bother him he would react bullying other kids, destroying stuff and just being a very difficult child to deal with, got help from OT and Special Ed teachers and he is doing lot better now.
Sounds like your child is having a hard time sharing Mom, home, toys, etc...

Glad he is doing better-
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Angelwings36 07:57 AM 01-30-2013
Originally Posted by cheerfuldom:
no this does not make sense

you have put another child ahead of your own child. It is the mothers responsibility to find appropriate care for both her children in a safe environment with providers who can handle both of them. It is YOUR job to make sure your own childs needs are met, including him/her having a home where there is not a daycare kid bullying them, exhausting mom, taking over the house. Imagine how the other kids feel, knowing that this other rowdy kid gets so much of the attention and the rest of the kids have to split the leftovers. You arent doing anyone any favors by trying to tough it out. Are you willing to sacrifice the environment for all the other kids for the sake of just one?

the mom has basically said that she cant handle him and cages him like an animal in his room at home. you know how caged exotic animals act at the zoo? they go crazy and they also go from one side of the cage to the other, over and over and over....just like this little guy running from wall to wall and running in circles all day. He is being treated like an animal at home and no surprise, he is acting like one. You cannot replace his mom. SHE needs to step up and figure out a way to deal with this appropriately. Nothing is going to change until SHE changes. We aren't miracle workers, OP. I dont believe you can change this on your own.

I would have one last talk with mom and let her know that if you cant work together with a plan and see some progress, you will continue taking care of big sis only, not little brother. If she chooses to remove sis from your care, that is HER choice.

as for the not responding from this little guy, it is probably due to environment. he is left alone and unattended for long periods of time from the sounds of it (in his room). he probably is lacking attachment and appropriate communication skills which should be learned thru interaction with his parents.

I 100% agree!!
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Willow 08:01 AM 01-30-2013
Time for the kiddo to go.

If another child is hurting your child, it's time for them to go.

If the parents aren't doing anything, or are doing everything to make it worse (who spanks a baby or shuts them in their room????), it's time for them to go.

If your feelings start to turn from a place of constructive criticism and problem solving to utter frustration, (I personally have no problem with using the word "bad" around colleagues, if it's that bad call it what it is kwim?) it's time for them to go.


*IF*

- you can completely keep your child separate from this one (and I mean ZERO direct interaction) then you might consider keeping them.

- mom agrees to cease all corporal/punitive punishment and take some parenting classes that will teach her better ways to handle her child then you might be able to consider keeping them. At this age it's flat out abuse and I'd be letting her know it if she doesn't quit I'd be obligated to report it.

- mom agrees to get her child evaluated by both a pediatrician AND a child psychologist/therapist/developmental specialist then you might be able to consider keeping them.

- you can find your way back from how at the end of your rope you are then you might be able to consider keeping them.



Without a minimum of those stipulations met it's not right to you, your family or the child to continue on.

Guaranteed this WILL get worse the older and bigger he gets without some serious interventions here. He is already a serious liability to you, your business, your family and all of the other kids in your care. I get that you care about his sibling but she can not be the only priority here.
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Country Kids 08:01 AM 01-30-2013
I am asking all the responders on here to please, please stop telling the op that the situation is "messed up".

You all tell her that this child can't be "bad" but then you turn around and tell her what she is doing is "messed up". How is that being nice? If you need to say something, please think of the tone, delivery, and wording that you are using also. I see no difference in what people called her out on, then what you are doing.

Constructive critisism is worded so that the person hopefully won't be offended but something comes out of it.

Remember the saying "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all".

Bravo to the posters that shared their stories with the op! Maybe you guys could pm each other and bounce ideas off each other.
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My3cents 08:04 AM 01-30-2013
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
That is what is confusing me as well.

Keeping the DCK's safe is their mother's responsibility. NOT yours.

I am just having a really hard time understanding how a mother could allow her own child to be the one who is getting the short end of the stick in this situation.

OP, are you at all concerned about how your own son is doing in this situation? He looks to YOU for protection, comfort and security and you are insteading making those things a priority for another child.

Several posters have brought this up and you have yet to address this line of thinking.

FWIW~ WORST mistake I ever made in child care was getting emotionally invested in saving a child. The intentions were good from the start but the ending was bad. VERY bad.

Please put YOUR child first.
Care to share BC? You can private me , just remind me to look at messages.
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Country Kids 08:05 AM 01-30-2013
Originally Posted by Angelwings36:
Daycarelady if he has bit another child about 100 times this is not ok and something should have been done the 2nd, 3rd, 4th bite and not after 100 bites. How is the parent of the child that has been biten over 100 times reacting to this? I would be livid if I was that parent. Honestly it sound like you need to term even if you can't financially afford to do so. You just can not provide the quality care this child needs and that is not your fault. It is also obvious that you feel very negative towards this child and he will pick up on that and that is not fair to him.
The child is her own that is being bit.
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My3cents 08:07 AM 01-30-2013
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
That is what is confusing me as well.

Keeping the DCK's safe is their mother's responsibility. NOT yours.

I am just having a really hard time understanding how a mother could allow her own child to be the one who is getting the short end of the stick in this situation.

OP, are you at all concerned about how your own son is doing in this situation? He looks to YOU for protection, comfort and security and you are insteading making those things a priority for another child.

Several posters have brought this up and you have yet to address this line of thinking.

FWIW~ WORST mistake I ever made in child care was getting emotionally invested in saving a child. The intentions were good from the start but the ending was bad. VERY bad.

Please put YOUR child first.
Care to share BC? You can private me , just remind me to look at my messages. I forget about that section on the forums.
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Blackcat31 08:11 AM 01-30-2013
Originally Posted by Country Kids:
I don't feel she is being dramatic at all. Reading some of these posts even made me go whoa-whats going on here.

Remember she was looking for a solution not being told what she is doing is wrong and messed up.
She IS being dramatic. She is mad because she feels everyone is all down on her and thinks she is a horrible person... NO ONE said that...she is being defensive to the advice and suggestions SHE asked for.

She asked for advice. She is getting it. It is just not the words she wanted to hear. I can't help that and I can't help how someone interprets the advice and suggestions she asked for.

OP said "If y'all want to think I'm an awful person for saying he is "bad"...go right ahead. At this point it doesn't bother me. He has bitten another child about 100 times since he started coming here. The biting, the running, the hitting, the standing on toys...it's becoming a safety issue & I'm just looking for some advice from fellow providers. If you don't have anything constructive to say, how 'bout you just skip this post?"

Obviously, some of the responses DO bother her, although no one said she was an awful person.

I also have to wonder why she feels it is ok to say the child in question is bad but then the OP gets all huffy when she thinks the forum members are calling or saying she is bad? That makes no sense to me.

She (OP) NEEDS to be told that it isn't ok to allow a child (her own or any other) to be bitten by another child over 100 times!

She NEEDS to be told that she is hurting her own child emotionally and physically by allowing another child's needs to be more impotant.

If she doesn't like the advice and suggestions given, then don't take it. Don't ask if you aren't willing to hear ALL sides, ALL opinions and ALL sorts of different responses. That is the beauty of an on-line PUBLIC forum.
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Blackcat31 08:23 AM 01-30-2013
Originally Posted by Daycarelady1979:
Oh its not a financial issue at all. I make almost no money off this family. The reason I haven't lost a family due to the biting is because he bites MY child. And the reason I won't term is because his 3 year old sister has been molested twice by other people in other scenarios, and I have made it my personal mission to keep this child safe. I'm sorry if that doesn't make sense to anyone else.
If this really truly has nothing to do with money, then the perfect solution for everyone is for you to give free child care to the sister and have the mother find other care for the boy.

That way with you providing free care to the child you are concerned about, the mother can financially afford to find alternate care for the daycare boy.

Works for you, for your child, the daycare girl and the daycare boy.
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My3cents 08:23 AM 01-30-2013
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
She IS being dramatic. She is mad because she feels everyone is all down on her and thinks she is a horrible person... NO ONE said that...she is being defensive to the advice and suggestions SHE asked for.

She asked for advice. She is getting it. It is just not the words she wanted to hear. I can't help that and I can't help how someone interprets the advice and suggestions she asked for.

OP said "If y'all want to think I'm an awful person for saying he is "bad"...go right ahead. At this point it doesn't bother me. He has bitten another child about 100 times since he started coming here. The biting, the running, the hitting, the standing on toys...it's becoming a safety issue & I'm just looking for some advice from fellow providers. If you don't have anything constructive to say, how 'bout you just skip this post?"

Obviously, some of the responses DO bother her, although no one said she was an awful person.

I also have to wonder why she feels it is ok to say the child in question is bad but then the OP gets all huffy when she thinks the forum members are calling or saying she is bad? That makes no sense to me.

She (OP) NEEDS to be told that it isn't ok to allow a child (her own or any other) to be bitten by another child over 100 times!

She NEEDS to be told that she is hurting her own child emotionally and physically by allowing another child's needs to be more impotant.

If she doesn't like the advice and suggestions given, then don't take it. Don't ask if you aren't willing to hear ALL sides, ALL opinions and ALL sorts of different responses. That is the beauty of an on-line PUBLIC forum.
Aaaaaaaaaaaayeap!!!! All the Above-


It feels like trolls lately- maybe, maybe not. Just saying-
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Country Kids 08:31 AM 01-30-2013
Originally Posted by My3cents:
Aaaaaaaaaaaayeap!!!! All the Above-


It feels like trolls lately- maybe, maybe not. Just saying-
No she has been a member since last summer-no trolling from her.
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makap 08:45 AM 01-30-2013
You commented about this child on another members thread.
https://www.daycare.com/forum/showth...223#post310223

"
I had a little boy here tonight from 2:30-10:15 pm that fell asleep 3 times!! He took a nap right after his mom left, he fell asleep after being placed in a time out for running in circles inside my house over & over, and then he fell asleep again around 9:30 when I put him down for bed. Personally I think that's crazy, but his mom is a single mom going to nursing school full time & working part time...who knows what this kid's weekend was like?! I don't really question it. If they're tired, let 'em sleep. The only time I ever do it differently is if the parent says, "Little Johnny isn't sleeping well for me at night...could you please not let him sleep past 3:00 today?"


Wow! It seems to me maybe it is because this little boy is not treated well (spanking, locked in room), has no routine, no schedule which would greatly contribute to all of these problems.
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Country Kids 08:48 AM 01-30-2013
Also, did anyone remember she is still pretty newly pregnant and I'm sure she is pretty emotional with that right now. She shared the awesome news I believe yesterday that the ultrasound/heart beat came out great.

I'm pretty sure she is just having some high emotions right now, probably a little overwhelmed and just looking for support, not wanting to second guess herself.
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Crystal 08:49 AM 01-30-2013
My Professional advice to the OP is this:

You state the mother has told you that she spanks her child multiple times and locks him in his room. That, my friend, is child abuse. As a mandated reporter it is your responsibility to report this to children's protective services. This mother is not meeting the needs of her child, she is SPANKING A 16 MONTH OLD and LOCKING HIM IN HIS ROOM his aggression IS a direct result of how she is treating him and he NEEDS intervention immediatley. I am completely floored by this information and would have contacted CPS the very second she told me that. I would have told her as much as well.

I implore you to contact CPS TODAY. Your concern, you say, is about this child's safety. If it is, you MUST make that call. Even if it isn't, you MUST make that call.

I wish you the best.
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crazydaycarelady 08:51 AM 01-30-2013
I have not had time to read all of the responses but I do know that between the age of 1yo and 2yo is the hardest age for me to deal with. In this situation I wonder if you could use a play yard (like a gate type enclosure) to put him at times so that YOU can get a break. I have one and I put the 1yos in it at times - like when the older kids are dong a project. I have also had 1yos that ignore every toy I have but go from one "bad" thing to another - try and pull the outlet covers off, then head to the toilet to play around, try and go up the stairs, take a toy from someone, hit the dog........ I want to scream "just sit down and play with some toys!!!"



I think this forum could be better used if we offerred support instead of make people feel bad. I know it is possible to have the kind of forum that is loving and supportive because I go to another dcboard and the atmosphere there is very supportive and non-judgemental. People come here for help not to be ridiculed.
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Crystal 08:53 AM 01-30-2013
Originally Posted by Country Kids:
Also, did anyone remember she is still pretty newly pregnant and I'm sure she is pretty emotional with that right now. She shared the awesome news I believe yesterday that the ultrasound/heart beat came out great.

I'm pretty sure she is just having some high emotions right now, probably a little overwhelmed and just looking for support, not wanting to second guess herself.
CK, I appreciate you standing up for a member when you feel they are being attacked, but honestly, allowing your own child to be "abused" by another for the sake of keeping/protecting another child is a concern.

I agree she is emotional partially due to her pregnancy, however no one here actually bashed her, called her horrible or did anything to warrant her overreaction.

I sympathize with her struggle, however she could easily resolve it AND protect her own child by terminating care. AFTER she calls CPS.
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Crystal 09:04 AM 01-30-2013
OP....

I do not want to berate you. I want to give you some advice as a friend, and I hope you take it as such.

Your child is young now, and you may not feel that he will ever resent you for protecting this other child while allowing him to be the victim of this child, however, I assure you, in time it will come back to haunt you.

Our children already sacrifice enough every day by having to share thier Mommy, their home and their belongings with other people's children. That alone is enough for them to resent us as parents as they get older. I would hate for, in 5-10-15 years for you to realize how much your child actually resents what you are allowing.

I believe that your cause, protecting this other child, is noble. However, I do believe and KNOW that you will come to regret it one day.

Please do not sacrifice the relationship you could have with your child in the future. Please.
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Meeko 09:06 AM 01-30-2013
The point of this board is support. Support doesn't always mean only saying nice things. Sometimes it means saying /hearing a few home truths.

I understand the OP is very stressed. I admire her wanting to care for children who have been abused in the past.

But the hard cold fact is the children are STILL being abused. Locking a baby in a room and spanking him is child abuse. The mother needs to be reported.

Letting a child get bitten over and over again is child abuse and needs to be stopped.

The OP cannot continue to OK/excuse her own child being hurt. HE should be more important to her than any daycare child ever should be.

OP...you are NOT failing if you tell the mom that you cannot meet the needs of her son. Tell her you cannot allow your son to be abused any longer.

If you REALLY CARE for this child, call CPS. They will assess the situation and help the mother if they can. She cannot continue to lock him up or hit him. You are allowing it to happen if you don't speak up.
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Heidi 10:14 AM 01-30-2013
Originally Posted by Crystal:
My Professional advice to the OP is this:

You state the mother has told you that she spanks her child multiple times and locks him in his room. That, my friend, is child abuse. As a mandated reporter it is your responsibility to report this to children's protective services. This mother is not meeting the needs of her child, she is SPANKING A 16 MONTH OLD and LOCKING HIM IN HIS ROOM his aggression IS a direct result of how she is treating him and he NEEDS intervention immediatley. I am completely floored by this information and would have contacted CPS the very second she told me that. I would have told her as much as well.

I implore you to contact CPS TODAY. Your concern, you say, is about this child's safety. If it is, you MUST make that call. Even if it isn't, you MUST make that call.

I wish you the best.
absolutely!
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Country Kids 10:17 AM 01-30-2013
Originally Posted by Meeko:
The point of this board is support. Support doesn't always mean only saying nice things. Sometimes it means saying /hearing a few home truths.

I understand the OP is very stressed. I admire her wanting to care for children who have been abused in the past.

But the hard cold fact is the children are STILL being abused. Locking a baby in a room and spanking him is child abuse. The mother needs to be reported.

Letting a child get bitten over and over again is child abuse and needs to be stopped.

The OP cannot continue to OK/excuse her own child being hurt. HE should be more important to her than any daycare child ever should be.

OP...you are NOT failing if you tell the mom that you cannot meet the needs of her son. Tell her you cannot allow your son to be abused any longer.

If you REALLY CARE for this child, call CPS. They will assess the situation and help the mother if they can. She cannot continue to lock him up or hit him. You are allowing it to happen if you don't speak up.
I have to say spanking a child isn't abuse. Here is something from my state website:

Physical abuse includes:

•Bruises or cuts
•Head injuries
•Poisoning
•Fractures, sprains
•Burns or scalds
•Internal injuries
•Electrical shocks
•Death

Although not recommended, spanking is not abuse. However, a spanking which leaves marks or bruises on a child might be abuse. Bruises anywhere on a baby are serious.

I find it interesting they even say it MIGHT be but not a for sure thing.


When I felt overwhelmed when my kids were little, you know what the professionals would say-put you child into their room and take a break. Why, because it gave you some time to calm down and collect your thoughts.

If CPS was called for everyone that spanked their child, I don't think there would be enough tax dollars to run the agency anymore.
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AnneCordelia 10:35 AM 01-30-2013
In my province it is considered abuse to spank a child younger than 2. I would have to report that. CAS here wouldn't take the child or anything but they would recommend classes for the parent on appropriate discipline.
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spud912 10:45 AM 01-30-2013
Originally Posted by Country Kids:
I have to say spanking a child isn't abuse. Here is something from my state website:

Physical abuse includes:

•Bruises or cuts
•Head injuries
•Poisoning
•Fractures, sprains
•Burns or scalds
•Internal injuries
•Electrical shocks
•Death

Although not recommended, spanking is not abuse. However, a spanking which leaves marks or bruises on a child might be abuse. Bruises anywhere on a baby are serious.

I find it interesting they even say it MIGHT be but not a for sure thing.


When I felt overwhelmed when my kids were little, you know what the professionals would say-put you child into their room and take a break. Why, because it gave you some time to calm down and collect your thoughts.

If CPS was called for everyone that spanked their child, I don't think there would be enough tax dollars to run the agency anymore.
I agree with this!

While I completely disagree with this mom's methods of punishment at her son's age, as long as their are no marks, these are legal forms of punishment.
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Meeko 10:46 AM 01-30-2013
Originally Posted by Country Kids:
I have to say spanking a child isn't abuse. Here is something from my state website:

Physical abuse includes:

•Bruises or cuts
•Head injuries
•Poisoning
•Fractures, sprains
•Burns or scalds
•Internal injuries
•Electrical shocks
•Death

Although not recommended, spanking is not abuse. However, a spanking which leaves marks or bruises on a child might be abuse. Bruises anywhere on a baby are serious.

I find it interesting they even say it MIGHT be but not a for sure thing.


When I felt overwhelmed when my kids were little, you know what the professionals would say-put you child into their room and take a break. Why, because it gave you some time to calm down and collect your thoughts.

If CPS was called for everyone that spanked their child, I don't think there would be enough tax dollars to run the agency anymore.
Yes...it's my own personal opinion, but REGULAR and ONGOING spanking of a baby is not OK in my book. Being locked up and hit is not the life he should be subjected to.

I have sent my own kids to their room when they were out of line. But never as babies and never on a regular basis. He is too young to understand why he is being shunned.
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spud912 10:53 AM 01-30-2013
Originally Posted by countrymom:
ok, I'm going to tell you what the problem is. She is beating you down to get her way. I have one like this, and she is 12 now.

1.you need to get her up every day at the same time, if she is a bear then so be it, but by getting up every day her body will be use to it. It consistency.

2.as for the dressing and toileting, if you need be, then either let her pick her clothes out or you dress her. I found that I had to give my dd either a or b to pick from nothing more otherwise there are too many choices and she goes crazy. I've had to hold her on my lap and physically dress her too.

3.stop putting her in her room. THIS IS THE WORST THING EVER. Children will start to associate their bedrooms as a bad place, this goes along the line of playpens and cribs. Also, she will start to destroy her room and then what, you'll be back to square one.

4.you need to have a time out spot or area. For my dd we used a stool. It sat in the middle of the room away from everything. She was to sit there and she could scream and yell and spit (yes she would spit at us) and when she was done she could get off. At first she would get off, but I would put her back over and over again. Remember your the parent, you are the one in charge not her. I don't reason with children, she was one that you couldn't do it, you couldn't redirect her either, you needed to show her that you were bigger and stronger and that you wouldn't tolerate her nonsense.

5.also, I found that we had to have a rigid routine for a while. We had to go to bed everyday at a certain time, eat at a certain time.

6.I've been there and done a workshop on kids like her (they call them spirited, I call them something else) but its gotten so much better. We still have days but nothing like before. I also found that asking them why they are screaming works too. I would hold them on my lap and make them tell me why or till the stop screaming. Yes its exhausting but it will get better. We always laugh that dd is going to be a great lawyer some day because she doesn't know the work "no"
Thank you so much for your advice. I do have to say that she has a stronger will than I do in many instances. We have already done several of the things you recommend and they sometimes worked for short periods of time, but they soon became as ineffective as all the others. We already maintain a very stringent schedule with her. Time out is completely ineffective and the only way to keep her in it is to hold her down, which leads to hitting and pushing. She is improving with age though and rarely hits or pushes anymore (maybe once every 2 months). My current methods of lots of positive praise, a lot of extra attention and rewards for good behavior seems to be working wonderfully for the time being .

I just wanted the OP to know it can be worked with but not without a lot of work and sacrifice (of which I do not know is worthwhile when the child is not even hers).
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Country Kids 11:03 AM 01-30-2013
The op said the mom wasn't spanking anymore but putting him in his room but no where did she say for hours or anything. For all we know it maybe being used as a time out for the child/mom. We don't know her life and maybe she feels safer doing this then something that could lead to actual abuse. We don't know the whole facts on this story or what is really going on.

Also, if we are going to turn this mother in we should also turn in the parents we know that get home feed the kids, bath them and have them in bed by 7:00. Why wouldn't that be considered abuse? I have read many a story on here about parents that do this.
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Heidi 11:16 AM 01-30-2013
Originally Posted by Country Kids:
I have to say spanking a child isn't abuse. Here is something from my state website:

Physical abuse includes:

•Bruises or cuts
•Head injuries
•Poisoning
•Fractures, sprains
•Burns or scalds
•Internal injuries
•Electrical shocks
•Death

Although not recommended, spanking is not abuse. However, a spanking which leaves marks or bruises on a child might be abuse. Bruises anywhere on a baby are serious.

I find it interesting they even say it MIGHT be but not a for sure thing.


When I felt overwhelmed when my kids were little, you know what the professionals would say-put you child into their room and take a break. Why, because it gave you some time to calm down and collect your thoughts.

If CPS was called for everyone that spanked their child, I don't think there would be enough tax dollars to run the agency anymore.
From OP's description, this is not an occasional "swat" on the rear to gain the child's attention, or putting the child in his room for a minute so that she can calm down. DCM is using spanking and isolation to punish a 16 month old. While this may not leave physical marks, it will certainly leave emotional ones, and it teaches him absolutely nothing except violence.

OP can't do either of these things, so even if they worked at home, it would not work at daycare.

If this is how DCM is handling his behavior at 16 months, neither the mother or the child will ever develop any long-term strategies. As someone else said, he will only get older and stronger. When he's 16 years instead of 16 months, she will not be able to bully him into submission. Never mind, that it doesn't seem to be working anyway.

I personally would be working with the mother to find her resources, and would be pushing, pushing her to use those resources. Doctor evals, Birth-two-Three, parenting classes, resource centers. If she refused to avail herself of these resources, I would call CPS. With no intervention, there is a real danger severe physical abuse occuring down the road. Afterall, Mom's got no tools, and neither does the provider (NOT saying OP would resort to abuse!!). But, children like this are prime candidates!

Maybe CPS wouldn't do a darn thing. I really don't know. Hopefully, they'd at least push the resources as well.
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My3cents 11:19 AM 01-30-2013
Originally Posted by Country Kids:
The op said the mom wasn't spanking anymore but putting him in his room but no where did she say for hours or anything. For all we know it maybe being used as a time out for the child/mom. We don't know her life and maybe she feels safer doing this then something that could lead to actual abuse. We don't know the whole facts on this story or what is really going on.

Also, if we are going to turn this mother in we should also turn in the parents we know that get home feed the kids, bath them and have them in bed by 7:00. Why wouldn't that be considered abuse? I have read many a story on here about parents that do this.
Why would that be considered abuse? What am I missing here. A parent that picks up the child feeds the kid and bathes them and has them in bed by 7:00, What is wrong with this? I would call that parent a good parent. They are feeding and bathing and putting the child to bed at a reasonable hour. Big difference between spanking and locking a child in a room. Maybe I am out to lunch, actually I am at lunch
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cheerfuldom 11:23 AM 01-30-2013
Originally Posted by makap:
You commented about this child on another members thread.
https://www.daycare.com/forum/showth...223#post310223

"
I had a little boy here tonight from 2:30-10:15 pm that fell asleep 3 times!! He took a nap right after his mom left, he fell asleep after being placed in a time out for running in circles inside my house over & over, and then he fell asleep again around 9:30 when I put him down for bed. Personally I think that's crazy, but his mom is a single mom going to nursing school full time & working part time...who knows what this kid's weekend was like?! I don't really question it. If they're tired, let 'em sleep. The only time I ever do it differently is if the parent says, "Little Johnny isn't sleeping well for me at night...could you please not let him sleep past 3:00 today?"


Wow! It seems to me maybe it is because this little boy is not treated well (spanking, locked in room), has no routine, no schedule which would greatly contribute to all of these problems.
so mom is basically doing something else most hours of the day and night. this kid is SCREAMING for some routine and structure from mom. i get that single moms have a lot on their plate but at this point, her children are suffering. if she is locking a a baby in a room alone, what is going on with the older? is she being left alone and unsupervised as well? goodness, this whole home situation and daycare issues sound quite extreme. i stand by my statement that the OP should let this family go and concentrate on her own children and the other daycare families first. you cant save em all, as they say. you should make decisions based on priorities and your own family ALWAYS comes first.
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cheerfuldom 11:25 AM 01-30-2013
Originally Posted by Country Kids:
Also, did anyone remember she is still pretty newly pregnant and I'm sure she is pretty emotional with that right now. She shared the awesome news I believe yesterday that the ultrasound/heart beat came out great.

I'm pretty sure she is just having some high emotions right now, probably a little overwhelmed and just looking for support, not wanting to second guess herself.
oh the provider is pregnant?! even MORE of a reason to term this wild child. if this boy is biting the providers older child and wrecking the household, what will happen when he gets to a newborn???? gosh, he could really hurt someone bad and will be 10 months down the road and much stronger at that point. yikes!!
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cheerfuldom 11:29 AM 01-30-2013
Originally Posted by Crystal:
OP....

I do not want to berate you. I want to give you some advice as a friend, and I hope you take it as such.

Your child is young now, and you may not feel that he will ever resent you for protecting this other child while allowing him to be the victim of this child, however, I assure you, in time it will come back to haunt you.

Our children already sacrifice enough every day by having to share thier Mommy, their home and their belongings with other people's children. That alone is enough for them to resent us as parents as they get older. I would hate for, in 5-10-15 years for you to realize how much your child actually resents what you are allowing.

I believe that your cause, protecting this other child, is noble. However, I do believe and KNOW that you will come to regret it one day.

Please do not sacrifice the relationship you could have with your child in the future. Please.
well written.

sometimes we get into a situation for the right reasons but stay in the situation for the wrong ones.

keeping an aggressive child because you want to protect their sibling meanwhile risking your own childs well being is a perfect example of staying in a situation when you need to exit now!
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Country Kids 11:31 AM 01-30-2013
Originally Posted by My3cents:
Why would that be considered abuse? What am I missing here. A parent that picks up the child feeds the kid and bathes them and has them in bed by 7:00, What is wrong with this? I would call that parent a good parent. They are feeding and bathing and putting the child to bed at a reasonable hour. Big difference between spanking and locking a child in a room. Maybe I am out to lunch, actually I am at lunch
I was thinking because there is no quality time being really spent with them. I have children that are picked up by 5:30 and if they are in bed by 7:00, it would only be a totaly of 1.5 hours with the parent and between getting dinner, eating, bathing, bed thats pretty rushed and not relaxing quality time.
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jokalima 11:39 AM 01-30-2013
Thanks! He is doing better and he was really bad, even before he could walk he was this way and older kids were terrified of a crawling baby, when he started walking things got worse. I could find hair on my floor from him pulling other kids hair, scratches on other kids, I mean it was bad, really bad. Getting professional help has helped me TONS he has his teachers that visit him during DC hours and they even help me with other kids so it has been a very positive experience.
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youretooloud 11:53 AM 01-30-2013
I had a boy similar to this. He wasn't as hard as you describe, but he exhausted me. The other parents were coming in on a daily basis saying "My child said Colli did...." and it was one complaint after another.

When he was 18 months, his mom decided to put him in a center. He was kicked out within two weeks, then he was kicked out of the next center too...

So, I took him back, because I didn't think he was THAT bad...but, in that month, he had turned into the most horrible child i'd ever seen. I kicked him within the week. I was honest with the mom, saying "I can't afford to lose my other kids to keep him".

He got completely out of hand for several years. They moved across country, tried a few different public schools, and finally put him in a private school for kids with "extra energy". It's very boot camp-ish, and sports are required. He's not doing great....his parents got a divorce because they couldn't agree with what to do about him.

He's on my facebook, and I feel like he's SOOOO far out of control now (for his age) that I don't see a way back for him. Just what I see on facebook shocks me.
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CedarCreek 11:54 AM 01-30-2013
Op I think you have gotten some great advice on this thread and I am sorry you felt as though you were made out to be a horrible person. Don't worry about calling the child "bad" here. I called one of my kids a devil child on the dear parents thread. I would never call him that to him or anyone else in my life. Bottom line though is that you really should term the child. Its not a healthy relationship for either one of you. All the best.
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Sugar Magnolia 11:58 AM 01-30-2013
To the OP: nobody said you were horrible, nobody was trying to ruin your day. Yes, some people had an issue with the use if the word "bad", including myself. Its about professionalism and how the public perceives us. Many people gave you good advice. If you feel that our advice was poor, then that's ok. There is clearly some issues at home, and if you feel the child is being neglected (at the very least) you should report it. Leaving a toddler unattended in a locked bedroom is very inappropriate and dangerous. What if he became entangled in a cord and was strangled while locked in his room? I agree with the others, you cannot protect the older girl forever, if she was molested in a previous daycare, she too probably needs more help than you can provide. The phrase "bit over 100 times", also freaked many of us out. As I said before, this cannot continue. Its shocking, and shocking news usually brings harsher replies here, sorry.

About "attacks" and the forum in general......Yes, I think it is important to be kind. I also think it is important to be frank and honest. Sometimes, the truth hurts. Been there, done that. I know people come here to vent, but its my opinion that words like stupid, bad, hate, lousy parents and the like should not be used. Am I one of those politically correct people? Yep. Its not always what you say, but how you say it. PARENTS READ THIS FORUM, we don't need to be viewed as intolerant, close minded, or even worse, mean. These words give our profession a black eye.
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Country Kids 12:03 PM 01-30-2013
Originally Posted by youretooloud:
I had a boy similar to this. He wasn't as hard as you describe, but he exhausted me. The other parents were coming in on a daily basis saying "My child said Colli did...." and it was one complaint after another.

When he was 18 months, his mom decided to put him in a center. He was kicked out within two weeks, then he was kicked out of the next center too...

So, I took him back, because I didn't think he was THAT bad...but, in that month, he had turned into the most horrible child i'd ever seen. I kicked him within the week. I was honest with the mom, saying "I can't afford to lose my other kids to keep him".

He got completely out of hand for several years. They moved across country, tried a few different public schools, and finally put him in a private school for kids with "extra energy". It's very boot camp-ish, and sports are required. He's not doing great....his parents got a divorce because they couldn't agree with what to do about him.

He's on my facebook, and I feel like he's SOOOO far out of control now (for his age) that I don't see a way back for him. Just what I see on facebook shocks me.
Do you think this is the childs genetic make up and no matter what a person does, he is just made up this way?

You know it must be bad when a boot style school can't do anything and the parents divorce. That is very scary-
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hgonzalez 12:07 PM 01-30-2013
OMG..this was me a month ago. I am sorry people but there are children out there that are just badly behaved and mean. My heart goes out to you; I had a child exactly like this here and tried to work with the parents.

This kid was cruel to others, and I mean totally unprovoked cruel behavior...like poking a baby in the eyes when he first came in in the morning. Or grabbing someone's blankey out of their arms for no reason but to upset them. He also could not be contained. He could get out of ANY highchair, even when strapped in. I finally got one with a raised area between his legs that slowed him down as he could not climb out as easily. He also broke things intentionally and constantly. He would slap his Mom in the face at pick up time. He was 22 mos old when he left here.

If we were in the same state, I would think it was the same kid. I tried to work with the parents and they gave me notice. I am really scared the child is going to turn into a mass murderer or something, he was that awful.

I totally get your frustration. If you can get the parents on the same page and be consistent with discipline at daycare and home, maybe he has a chance (or maybe you have a chance). Does he have any food allergies? (sorry if this is repetitive).

My dkp termed me, which tells you they don't think there is a problem. I went through the Holidays with a big bruise on my forehead from that kid....glad he is gone!
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cheerfuldom 12:13 PM 01-30-2013
Originally Posted by youretooloud:
I had a boy similar to this. He wasn't as hard as you describe, but he exhausted me. The other parents were coming in on a daily basis saying "My child said Colli did...." and it was one complaint after another.

When he was 18 months, his mom decided to put him in a center. He was kicked out within two weeks, then he was kicked out of the next center too...

So, I took him back, because I didn't think he was THAT bad...but, in that month, he had turned into the most horrible child i'd ever seen. I kicked him within the week. I was honest with the mom, saying "I can't afford to lose my other kids to keep him".

He got completely out of hand for several years. They moved across country, tried a few different public schools, and finally put him in a private school for kids with "extra energy". It's very boot camp-ish, and sports are required. He's not doing great....his parents got a divorce because they couldn't agree with what to do about him.

He's on my facebook, and I feel like he's SOOOO far out of control now (for his age) that I don't see a way back for him. Just what I see on facebook shocks me.
thats so awful
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youretooloud 12:16 PM 01-30-2013
Originally Posted by Country Kids:
Do you think this is the childs genetic make up and no matter what a person does, he is just made up this way?

You know it must be bad when a boot style school can't do anything and the parents divorce. That is very scary-
I think it was a combination of being a very difficult child, and parents who just ran out of ideas. They had dreams for him, and he's not at all what they dreamed of.

But, he's only 13...so, maybe he will make the changes for himself.

A few weeks ago, he posted pictures on facebook of himself smoking pot. So, obviously, he wasn't born with the common sense gene.

ETA: On calling the O.P's kid "bad"....the boy i'm talking about is nicknamed "Damien" by his own parents.
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Crystal 01:45 PM 01-30-2013
Spanking your child, at 16 months old, even ONCE is abuse. Locking a 16 month old in a bedroom, for even ONE minute, is abuse. I guarantee you that CPS WOULD consider it abusive and there WOULD be intervention.

Besides just THAT behavior from the mother, clearly, based on OP feeling a need to protect this child based on the history of her being abused, this Mother is severely neglectful.

Regardless, it is not up to us to decide if it is or is not abuse. As mandated reporters if we even remotely SUSPECT abuse OR neglect, we are required to report it and let CPS decide if it is abuse or not.

OP.....I hope you come back and respond about this very serious matter.
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wdmmom 01:59 PM 01-30-2013
Originally Posted by Daycarelady1979:
Yes, he does sleep...A LOT.
I told the mom I need to talk to her tomorrow at pick up time.
Yes, he climbs out of high chair, even when strapped in. I don't know how he does it!
He eats almost anything. He is a good eater.

In the past when I have dealt with a child with behavior like this, after one or two times or redirection or separation, they get the point. This boy DOES NOT GET IT. He just does the same stuff over & over & over...and I NEVER let him get away with it.

For example, every single day, without fail, he runs laps around my downstairs area. Runs. And runs. And runs. Circles! All day! I redirect him. It doesn't work. I separate him from the area. It doesn't work. I contain him in his high chair. It doesn't work. I sit him on the couch for a mini time out. It doesn't work. I speak to him, on his level, in a firm voice. It doesn't work. NOTHING WORKS. Finally I moved my furniture around so he couldn't run in circles. His play area was cut in half. I didn't know what else to do. It was a total pain (and not fair) for the other people in my house. It seemed to work for him though. Tonight I used my super yard in a straight line to block off one doorway & a baby gate in the other doorway, instead of moving all the furniture again. He ran, and ran, and ran, and ran from gate to gate. Back & forth. Over & over. What more can I do??

If y'all want to think I'm an awful person for saying he is "bad"...go right ahead. At this point it doesn't bother me. He has bitten another child about 100 times since he started coming here. The biting, the running, the hitting, the standing on toys...it's becoming a safety issue & I'm just looking for some advice from fellow providers. If you don't have anything constructive to say, how 'bout you just skip this post? There's enough negativity in the world today...can't we at least be nice to each other on here?
One word solution:

PLAYARD!!!

If he can't be in the common area, he gets his own area. Running is an absolute NO-NO here.

If he runs, swiftly pick him up without saying a word and contain him to a playard. He can have 35 square foot to play or sit or cry or whatever he wants to do. If he throws the toys that are in there, he gets stuffed animals only. He throws those, he gets none.

He's still young enough that you can nip this but you need to be assertive and aggressive. Teach him the rules and show him...the better gig is with the rest of the group, not isolated to a playard. Sooner or later, they figure it out.

If the hitting and biting continue, I would terminate just for the simple fact that he clearly can't function with a group. He needs individual care.
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Willow 02:14 PM 01-30-2013
Originally Posted by Country Kids:
Do you think this is the childs genetic make up and no matter what a person does, he is just made up this way?

You know it must be bad when a boot style school can't do anything and the parents divorce. That is very scary-
Violence isn't genetic but mental illness can lower inhibitions and tolerance levels (or heighten them to the point where a kid getting the tar beat out of him in retaliation doesn't feel a thing or is drawn to that sort of endorphin release/thrill/attention).

One can usually only speculate but a lot of times kids like that have a history of alcohol/lead/chemical/drug (prescription and illegal) exposure in utero too.

All kinds of inorganic exposures can alter physiology (particularly when you're talking about the developing brain) to the point where there just is no way that child is ever going to grow to function "normally."
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daycare 02:24 PM 01-30-2013
Originally Posted by Willow:
Violence isn't genetic but mental illness can lower inhibitions and tolerance levels (or heighten them to the point where a kid getting the tar beat out of him in retaliation doesn't feel a thing or is drawn to that sort of endorphin release/thrill/attention).

One can usually only speculate but a lot of times kids like that have a history of alcohol/lead/chemical/drug (prescription and illegal) exposure in utero too.

All kinds of inorganic exposures can alter physiology (particularly when you're talking about the developing brain) to the point where there just is no way that child is ever going to grow to function "normally."
willow...have I told you how happy I am that you have stayed on this board? Sorry to high-jack, but I just love the amount of knowledge you have about so many things...

Awesome!!!
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Country Kids 02:25 PM 01-30-2013
Originally Posted by youretooloud:
I think it was a combination of being a very difficult child, and parents who just ran out of ideas. They had dreams for him, and he's not at all what they dreamed of.

But, he's only 13...so, maybe he will make the changes for himself.

A few weeks ago, he posted pictures on facebook of himself smoking pot. So, obviously, he wasn't born with the common sense gene.

ETA: On calling the O.P's kid "bad"....the boy i'm talking about is nicknamed "Damien" by his own parents.
Wow, I just say the bottom part of what his own parents call him!

It sounds like they have done everything possible and whats sad is how young he is-

If they have done all this for him and he's not getting better there really sounds like it maybe more a pschological thing.
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rmc20021 02:44 PM 01-30-2013
I kinda know what you mean. I got a little boy at 9 months old...he was horrible. There was nothing I could do to satisfy him. He cried all day long and NEVER slept. I kept hanging on thinking he'd get better as he got older.
He never got better, he just changed the things that were so awful in dealing with him.
He went from crying all day and not sleeping to screaming hysterically if I left the room and throwing toys across the room, hitting other kids with toys, falling down on top of other kids...just one thing after another.
Still kept hanging in there thinking it had to get better sooner or later. I can't tell you how many times I wrote out a text to send to mom, but didn't.
As he got older, he got sneaky and no longer screamed when I left the room...he took that opportunity to get into whatever he could. I couldn't take my eyes off him for a second.
One day his mom told me she was changing daycares...he was about 16 mo at that time. I felt so much relief that SHE was the one to terminate and I didn't have to do it.
A few days later she contacted me wanting to bring him back...I told her NO. Stress levels have been greatly reduced around here and I wouldn't go back to that for anything.
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Tags:bad behavior, files, mandated reporter, terminate - biter, violent behaviour
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