I have a DCB who's 2.5 and has been with me on and off for about a year & a half. At first he was part time but now just drop in. His mom works 3-4 days per week, schedule varies. Dad has had a really good job but is frequently laid off and will be laid off indefinitely after next week. He also works occasionally for a friend(off the books I'm pretty sure.) Parents are not married but have lived together since before DCK was born.

I'm not licensed but am approved to receive state pay. DCM asked me about how it works and I got the forms for her to fill out. Today she brought them back for me to fill out my portion. When I looked through them I saw that she didn't list DCD or his income on the form and when it asked if the child's other parent lived in the home, she checked No. She wrote that she receives "voluntary" child support of $150 per month.

I have no problem with people getting assistance if they need it but not if they go about it dishonestly. I don't know if they will meet the income requirements or not if DCD is getting unemployment and I don't know if they would even qualify since DCD is laid off & can keep DCB at home. I just think that they should have to provide the correct information to the state and I don't feel right signing off on this and sending it in when I know it's not the truth.

My plan was to tell her that I won't fill out my part until she includes DCD's info too. My mom says I should just let it go but I don't feel like that would be right. DCB is a great kid and I would hate to lose him if the parents get mad at me but this just really irritates me.

So what would you do?

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Is she asking you to put down incorrect information about the child being with you?

I wouldn't put down anything that wasn't true in that regard.

However, if you just notice that her part of the information isn't truthful, I'm not sure how that affects you unless you are planning to report her because you know about it.

Laurel

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When people try to collect public assistance by being dishonest, it effects ALL of us.

As a tax payer of the U.S, I would turn in or report anyone I knew was dishonest in trying to collect benefits.

OP~ I would absolutely say something to the mom. I am a bit forward about stuff like this and don't mind confrontation but if you feel uncomfortable confronting mom, then maybe let your department of health and human services know what you know and let them sort out the truth.

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Generally I fill out my part before I give the parent the form to fill out their part. Sometimes they get the form from DHS and their part is already filled out. Since I don't always know the families financial information I wouldn't know if it were accurate or not.

The way I figure it is that I fill out my part honestly and it's their responsibility to fill out their part. It's not my right to know their financial information but our systems here a lot of times detect wrongly reported information in forms and its DHS and the parents responsibility to do the rest.

I'm a mandated reporter for child abuse and neglect. If the parent wants to get herself in a lot of trouble that's her business,

HOWEVER in my agreement to be a provider with the state, I'm REQUIRED to report KNOWN fraud. So if I KNEW what they put on their stuff to be a lie, I'm required to tell and I would.

But again, I normally dont know their complete financial informant and don't generally see the top part of that form filled out anyway. Is not really my business and it doesn't have to be filled out on the top for me to fill out mine.

That said, if I know mom well enough, I'd tell her if she gets caught putting info that's fraud in that form and receives benefits because of that fraud, its a federal offense.

Then I'd get a new form, fill out my info, and ask her to do the right thing.

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I totally agree that it's wrong if she's putting false information on her application.

But do you know 100% for a fact that it's untrue? For example, right after my DS was born and I was still working outside the home, my DH and I decided to take a break. We literally told no one. Not even our families. In fact, we pretty much made it seem like nothing out of the ordinary was going on.
We just didn't want to talk about it and have to explain anything.

My point is, you likely don't know their situation 100%.


If you're concerned about it and feel that what she has put on there is really untrue, then you could ask her if their family dynamic has changed as I'm sure that would involve you. If they no longer were together it would be in the child's best interest for you to know that information.

IDK... I really don't know.

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Exactly.

Laurel

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The situation here is tricky. He may be laid off after next week so she's putting on the form that he won't be making income after next week (which is also likely the time she will turn in the forms anyway seeing as how she Just brought it back today. Earliest she'll get it back is at LEAST Monday, but in my experience, they usually turn it in last minute---which means at the time she turns it in and it becomes approved he will no longer be employed). Since you don't know if he will/will not receive unemployment (and at the moment he doesn't since he's still employed this week), then you can't assume which way it will go and can't say she's being dishonest about that. Now, if you KNOW for a fact where DCD lives, then this is something that I would probably question "Oh, on the form it says DCD doesn't live w/ you anymore, is everything ok?" because even if they HAD been living together, perhaps they separated and didn't tell you. I had parents do this (Drove me crazy, and on one hand they were embarrassed but on the other hand, they didn't realize how MUCH their separation affects the child and their behavior in my care!). The point is, you don't really "know" what is going on.

When I took state subsidy, the parents were not required to "work" but had to do a work or school activity. Perhaps she's applying in anticipation he will be job searching, which IS allowed in most states.

I would do nothing. It's not your place to worry about it, it's hers. You don't know for certain that she's lying about anything and thus you can let her worry about it if she is. The only time I'd say a word is if I knew without a shadow of a doubt the person was committing welfare fraud, such as if she actually told you something.

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Except how can one know for sure? I just don't feel like it would be any of my business unless they were asking ME to do something dishonest and report, for example, that I watched the child more than I did or lie about what I charged, kwim?

Laurel

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Laurel

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Being the person that I am I would not fill it out yet until I had a chance to talk to her. Me being me, I would personally just ask her about it ...
"Hey DCM, I noticed that you didn't list DCD on your paperwork for your assistance. Is he not living with you guys anymore? Is everything okay between you guys? I don't want to pry but I'm concerned because a number of things. 1) It's important for me to know when big changes like this occur that could disrupt DCB's life so I know to look out for and explain possible mood and behavior changes. Know what I mean? 2) If nothing is wrong and he still lives with you then I don't feel comfortable putting my name onto anything that's dishonest. I know that you could use the assistance but if DCD is living in the home with you and you don't report it and they find out that's fraud and I will take no part in that" etc.

Depending on what she says then I would make my decision to either put my name to it or offer that she go somewhere else instead.

That's just me but I won't put my name to anything that's dishonest and that could turn out to be a liability. If she assured me that he did not live in the house, and I signed the paperwork only to find out later that she fibbed to me then I'd see it as a break in trust and I wouldn't want that type of partnership. Furthermore if she got and I was questioned about it at least I could say that I did address it and that she assured me that the paperwork was filled out correctly.

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I totally understand how the OP feels I probably would feel the same way but I don't think is any of my business. I would probably talk to her about it but that is it. I really hate turning people in but that's just me.

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I do know for sure that DCD does live with them. Just today she was telling me what improvements he's been making on the house because they want to sell it. (She tends to be one of those parents who tells you more than you really want to know.)

It's really not going to be a lot of money since he doesn't come regularly and the state doesn't pay unlicensed providers as much as licensed. But it just feels wrong to lie in order to get government benefits and it affects all of us since it's our tax dollars that are involved. People who take advantage of the welfare system make it harder for the people who really need it to get help.

Still haven't decided what I'm going to do.

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I agree. I would ask DCM what's going on, if this event is new and that life changing information like that should be told to you as it affects the child. I would also state that you are not at liberty to sign any document that has falsified information on it as it may come back on you if you sign off on it.

See what info you can find out and if you are comfortable signing it, than sign it. If you think there's more to the story than she is telling you, I would either refuse to sign it or sign it and report her to the state for fraud.

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But, just because he is making improvements/assisting her in fixing up the house doesn't mean he is still living there. Separated parents can remain amicable and even helpful in certain situations. Especially if you were both wanting to sell the house. You really don't know it unless she said, "He even cleaned up his sink in the master bathroom!" or something that makes it that clear.

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I'm not going to argue over the details. The home improvements were just one example--I know for sure that they live together. And I don't think it's right that they take advantage of the system. I am going to talk to her about it when she comes today and see what she says. Then I will decide what I'm going to do.

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Dcd may not actually be dad.

If that's the cause obviously she doesn't live with him and would completely explain why she listed what she did as child support and not common law income.

A lot of people just naturally assume my children are my husband's, even before when we were just dating. Despite living together I was required to not include his income, only mine and my child support counted even though we definitely shared bills.

I'd be seriously miffed if I had to explain their paternity to anyone because it's no ones business but mine.

I hope if you decide to confront her or turn her in that you won't offend her if that is truly the case.

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It's one thing to say that the guy living with her isn't living with her, however, its another thing to say because he really is living there that mom is "taking advantage of the system"

First of all, as you said, the guy is getting laid off. So he won't have income. Unemployment is never guaranteed and until he gets it, she doesn't have to report it. Has she actually said she isn't going to report income?

I think there's a bit of jumping the gun going on here.

I have a mixed family. I have three step sons who look like they are mine and people assume they are. I have a daughter with my husband. Ad we have an adopted son that is neither of ours biologically that nobody has any idea he isn't ours. I have a different last name as my husband of 11 years. I don't inform people nor feel the need to explain myself and if a daycare provider asked my personal business that doesn't relate to daycare I'd tell her to take a hike.

The only thing of the information you have given here that seems off is the information about her not putting dad on the form. If he is even the biological dad which doesn't seem to be anyone's business.

I think the best thing I could do in this situation is that I tell parent I personally take these papers turned in very seriously and to be very careful to be sure everything on these forms are 100% true and honest and leave it at that.

I would be furious if someone insisted my children's paternity, adoption status or anything else was their business. The provider is supposed to fill out their part and sign THEIR PART. Nowhere on those forms does it say that the provider has to verify parental information. That's what the DHS or etc workers are supposed to do,

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I don't believe the op is questioning the child's paternity. From what I understand is that the op is mad about the DCP taking advantage of the system by not reporting that there is a parent living in the home.

The way subsidy works is if both parents are working and within income guidelines they will qualify for Childcare services. If this parent reports that dad, boyfriend or whatever he is, is not working they won't qualify because one parent is at home while mom works.

What I think these parents are doing, either Dcd is working under the table (cash) so he won't have to report to the unemployment or simply doesn't want to stay home with the child all day

Which I don't think it's right anyways but I wouldn't report it because I don't feel it's none of my business but we all don't think or feel the same. Kwim

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Yep I know what ya mean here both parents don't have to work. One can be working while the other one participates in the states work program. Or one can go to school. Or both can be unemployed and actively looking for work while participating in community service and/or the work program.

But here, one or both don't have to be employed. With the jobs as few as they are, it's usually that one is working and one is doing the other options. But if both are working they will likely be over the income requirements.

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In that case: I, personally, would tell DCM:
"In all good conscience, I can't sign this due to the information you have given that I know is not true. I don't want to put myself, my family, or my business on the line when I know the information you gave on this form is false and could possibly implicate me for accessory to fraud. I will however be glad to sign it if you bring me another copy with the correct information"

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I had a parent try to lie on her assistance forms (through her work not state) and said that my payment dates were different and my charges were more. She had some long drawn out story about how in order to get her reimbursement by the 15th instead of the 30th she had to say my dates where different and the charge was what she was allowed to claim up to (so she figured she'd say I charged right at the cap, $75 more than I did). Even though it wasn't MY tax money, like state assistance, it is money that her co-workers pay into so I thought it was rude and said I couldn't sign unless it was correct (plus I was afraid how/what they would report to IRS). a few times she tried to bring me the blank forms, which I wouldn't sign either unless I filled in the proper information (which annoyed her )

I even called her HR department and talked to someone about what was claimed, they couldn't tell me anything but they could verify my information with what she reported. I don't know what happened but she came to me the next month and asked if I had called HR, I denied and said they called me saying they were doing random checks to make sure that I was properly reporting the correct amount on my income and that my tax ID was correct because they had to 1099 me (they didn't, I never received money from them because she was the one reimbursed after paying my fees herself). Thankfully she believed me and used it as another reason why she hated her employer (she got fired 2 months later, she had been trying for 9 months to get fired)

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I like that wording- upfront, honest, but not too harsh for their sake. Although I can't stand people who are cheating the system (or trying to)

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Good thinking on your part to deny being the one who called! I personally had a family in my Head Start classroom years ago- unmarried couple with 3 kids together. Used her income to get tax benefits and assistance- the dad made great money and they went on vacations, spent money, and so forth all the time. Irritated the heck out of me!!

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Just like being a mandated reporter...you only have to SUSPECT NOT KNOW.

It's the fraud department that will sort out the details.

I still stand by my words and would report her in a heartbeat IF I SUSPECTED she was purposely being dishonest.

I got the feeling from OP that she wasn't just assuming anything.
She obviously felt strongly enough about it to post here and ask....she obviously feels she DOES know and that the mom IS being dishonest.

I am surprised at the number of posters who are trying to make excuses for this parent. Based off the info I personally picked up from OP's post, there wasn't any guessing going on and her question in her original post was based on info she KNOWS.

Welfare fraud is a HUGE weight on ALL of us financially. It costs the tax payers between $9.0 - $13.5 Billion dollars every year.


Like SUSPECTED abuse/mistreatment, I would not hesitate to report SUSPECTED welfare fraud.

I DO like MV and Starburst's suggestion of simply asking mom....however, most people who would lie to the government and risk being caught would probably have no issues lying to you either but it's worth atleast asking her and then acting based on her answers or how you (OP) felt about it afterwards.

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It's not an attempt to make excuses on my end anyway BC. In MN how she filled out the paperwork is textbook for a child living with a father who is not biological.

Add to that I think it's hard for a lot of us to understand how OP knows so much about a particular family's financials. I don't know that sort of information about my close family members and best friends, and it's certainly not something I'd ever discuss with my daycare families.

That's not to say this relationship isn't very different for whatever reason but I think that's probably why so many are wondering how on earth one could have such information.

Turn them in, don't turn them in, the choice is hers of course. But if you turn someone in because you *think* you have the full story and really don't please be fully prepared to deal with the fall out from that. Would be no different than how most of us would feel if we were turned in to the state for abuse when the child simply got a scrape while riding a bike.

If I knew someone was attempting to defraud the state I would not only turn them in but terminate our contract for care also. Trust needs to go both ways and I would no.longer trust a family in my home that was attempting to do such a thing.

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what she said

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Laurel

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FWIW~ My comments weren't directed towards you or anything you posted but I did quote you so you knew where I was coming

But OP made several statement saying she KNOWS this is the DCD and that the parents although unmarried have lived together since before child's birth. So based on what information OP KNOWS, this parent is being deceitful according to the daycare provider's beliefs.

I wasn't suggesting OP turn her in based on her knowledge (or lack) of financial information. I was again, talking about the living situation.

I know a lot more than I care to know about several of my DCF's finances thanks to some of my DCP's being the chatty type~ which OP said this parent was......

Unfortunately though in MN you are required to give that information. Even if the male living in the household is not the children's father, the income that person brings into the home counts towards any benefits the mother may or may not receive, including child care assistance.

Also, unless you name a father for your child or agree to have suspected fathers tested, you aren't allowed to collect any type of state benefits....why should the tax payers be financially responsible for a child that could potentially have a contributing parent.....

*****************************************************

The OP made a few statements that lead me to make the conclusion that I did. She said:

I still stand by what I said. Poster's are arguing income and such and I was simply referring to the subject of dad living with the child and the parent check no.

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I had a parent that provided the state false information and it came back to bite her in the butt. I still got paid but she had to pay the state back and was kicked off the assistance program.

I don't try to verify info or make sure anything they're reporting is correct or not. I only make sure anything pertaining to me is correct to the best of MY knowledge. Every quarter, the child care assistance program receives income reports and if they lie, what goes on in the wash will come out in the rinse.

But if that's what you KNOW op and you feel that is the best way you're handling it, go for what you know.

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I fill out my section. The parent fills out their section. I don't LOOK at what they fill out. It's not my job to verify the parent is being honest, but it IS my job to fill out my section accurately.

If the roles were reversed, I might actually be insulted/upset if my child care provider was reading through my personal information on what should be considered a private document. And double upset if the violation of my privacy was accompanied by a lecture about honesty. I would not confront this mom. I'm sorry to say, and I don't mean to sound harsh, but you shouldn't be reading her personal information to begin with.

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exactly my point from the very beginning of this post. My job is to be sure my part is accurate. And like I said I usually fill out my part and hand it to the parent and usually their part isn't filled out anyway.

I did notice, however that it does say in my provider agreement with e state if I KNOWINGLY provide or assist with fraud I am held accountable. But generally I keep copies of those forms here, fill out my part and give it to the parent to finish.

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Right, and no one is arguing or saying that you HAVE to make sure that the paperwork is correct ... just that some of us feel like we have a moral obligation to not put our names to something that is wrong (and that we know is wrong).

OP said that she is sure the DCD lives with them and the DCM chose to omit this info. If you would choose to ignore it that is okay ... I wouldn't ignore it, it would eat at me. BUT that's just how I am.

Kelly wrote in her original post most of the information which tells me that she knows what is going on and has doubts. To me it sounds like she doesn't feel right filling out her portion of her information because she knows that the DCM would be keeping required information off of the paperwork. She thought about it enought o want to post it here which to me means that she is probably struggling with the decision of whether or not to go ahead and fill out the paperwork or talk to the DCM first.

Where I live our nearest subsidy program requires that the paperwork be filled out completely and truthfully. It goes far enough to require that the names, ages and relationships of all adults living in the home be listed. If a DCP had told me that there were other parents living in the home but left that information out when filling out paperwork for subsidy especially leaving out that the child's father lived in the home ... I personally would not be okay with that.

I've had a situation where I was told that the parent was single and looking for work and that was why she needed child care. One day I got a call from the subsidy program to verify information and I was questioned about DCM's living and working situation. I told them exactly what I was told and confirmed that the DCM would drop off at around the same time in the mornings but would pick up at different times depending what time DCM was done with interviews and/or picking up applications. A few weeks later I got notice that DCM was being terminated. Apparently DCD was in fact with DCM and living with them and she was working odd jobs for "cash". I don't know how they found out but I later got another call from the subsidy program and was questioned again about the information. In the end I was told that they just wanted to make sure that I wasn't a part of the DCM's "plot" which would help them determine who had to pay all of the money back. Because I didn't know and DCM lied to me as well I did not have to repay any portion of the subsidy while DCM had full responsibility to repay the money back. Had I known and they found out then I would have had to repay the money back. My last payment would also have been withheld.

I would rather not get into a situation like that where things could get iffy so if I had a suspicion that something was up then I would talk to DCP about it.

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I think a good solution is for the OP to do exactly what cradle 2 crayons mentioned. Get a blank form, or have the mom provide a new blank form.
"Hey Susie, about the paperwork....I glanced at what you gave me and noticed all of your personal and financial information was already filled in by you. In the interests of respecting and protecting your privacy, I need a blank form,.so I can fill out my section without having to view your information."

When I get copies from the state of my subsidy children, their financial information is redacted.
it's kinda an invasion of privacy to read her stuff. It's the states job to verify. No one is ever going to advocate helping a parent commit fraud. When a provider signs the form, she is only.attesting that the info she provided is correct, not verifying the parent provided accurate information.

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Since OP already KNOWS this info, asking for a new blank form so she can "pretend" she didn't see any of what DCM filled out, would in this situation be similar to simply sticking your head in the sand and pretending that she doesn't know a thing. That wouldn't be something I could live with.

In regards to your comment about the provider ONLY attesting to her info being correct, that's where my state is a bit different. Here, I am going through this state rating system and one of the things that we as child care providers are now required to collaborate and work WITH other agencies the family is using. This is all part of the parent-provider relationship. We are encouraged to help and assist parents in filling out forms and applications for a myriad of things.

We are even supplied with the income guideline sheets in order to help them see if they are able to qualify or not. Also part of our instructions when a parent fills out the application for assistance for child care, we are also to report any SUPSPECT false or fraudulent info.

This isn't the role I chose to be in...it is just one that is being placed on me by the state and one in which I will have access to more info about a family than I care to know but I guess it is one way for the state to keep the fraud down and collaborating with ALL parties involved is just one method of covering all their bases.

There is definitely two sides to every story and every situation and the ways in which we deal with them are bound to be different as well but that doesn't mean any one of us is outright wrong.

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I was told that if I knew that a parent was lying to get CCA and didn't report it, like the contract I signed to be able to receive payment from the state said I had too, then I could be sued and have to pay the money back since I wrongfully got it.

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I only take private pay parents because once I tried the county assistance route and it was a major hassle.

Laurel

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THIS! I stopped taking subsidy after getting bamboozled by the state and their clients more than once and their trail of paperwork that is INSANE!

That said, before I stopped subsidy, I did have a mom who I knew the bf lived with her. I do not know all the requirements of the state. I filled out the following information:

My name, my #, my license ID, My address, My contracted hours with her, and my signature.

There was nothing on the paper for her to fill out but her name, addr, case # and phone # and the hours contracted.

I would have no way of knowing if she committed fraud or not because the financial info was not there. I have seen an application before (because I used to hand them out to interviewees who asked about subsidy) and know that a lot of those ??'s were on the form, but I never saw any parent actually fill them out nor did I need to do ANYTHING in regards to their application. They filled it out, and if approved, was then given the "provider-parent form" and that was it.

I think that it is NONE of anyone's business what a parent fills out but if they're dumb enough to put their business on a form and then GIVE it to someone, all expectation of privacy is gone because they chose to hand you the paper. In that case, if you're sure that they live together, you'd address it as a mistake "Suzie, I noticed you show dad not living in hh, can you correct?" And then you'll find out 1. She'll correct it 2. She tries to play it off or 3. perhaps the situation has changed since you knew last but at least you have addressed it in a non-confrontational way.

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