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Daycare Center and Family Home Forum>DCG~4 Throws Heavy Rock at My Dad
gracepatiencelove 11:31 AM 06-03-2014
DCG nearly 4 threw a rock at my dad when he stopped by today. Like, a fist sized rock. She was sent immediately to time out, fought that like a heathen, kicked and screamed.

I extended her trial period when she had some unruly but not necessarily violent behaviors (just very diruptive) her 1st two weeks.

Day one of extended trial she bit me (not hard, I yanked my hand away fast enough that she just scraped teeth). [It turns out she was termed from a center for biting hard enough to cause bleeeding which I was NOT told.]

Day two she shoved a 18mo hard enought to knock him down and scare him.

Day three, today, she THREW A ROCK AT MY DAD. They KNOW not to throw rocks so there is no way it was an accident (especially because it takes some good aim to hit a person with a rock!). I think her mom told her she would come get her if she misbehaved because soon after she cried, "I just want to go home."

I adore her brother. I like DCG. But there seems to be no rhyme or reason to when she acts out. DCM knows that trial can be shortened/termed for violent behavior.

Would you give them 2 weeks or tell them they're done? Do/should I offer to keep brother? Is there anything else I could/should try to make it work?
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gracepatiencelove 11:33 AM 06-03-2014
And, she was being supervised closely (she always is). She was standing RIGHT next to me when it happened. I was distracted by my own 17mo falling and getting hurt badly (bad cut on his head) and still kept her right next to me. I don't even know where she got the rock because I thought I cleared them all out ages ago!
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Play Care 11:34 AM 06-03-2014
Hitting, biting and rock throwing, oh my!

DONE!!!

I would not give a child who BIT me two weeks to assault me some more.
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Play Care 11:36 AM 06-03-2014
Oh, and clearly mom must allow it because if my child behaved that way, rest assured they would NOT want to come home
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ihop 11:36 AM 06-03-2014
I'd term. 4 is way too old to excuse that sort of behavior. I would also be concerned that they were hiding the biting from you. I consider any biting past two years old serious, termable behavior.
sorry you are dealing with this.
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llpa 11:37 AM 06-03-2014
Originally Posted by gracepatiencelove:
DCG nearly 4 threw a rock at my dad when he stopped by today. Like, a fist sized rock. She was sent immediately to time out, fought that like a heathen, kicked and screamed.

I extended her trial period when she had some unruly but not necessarily violent behaviors (just very diruptive) her 1st two weeks.

Day one of extended trial she bit me (not hard, I yanked my hand away fast enough that she just scraped teeth). [It turns out she was termed from a center for biting hard enough to cause bleeeding which I was NOT told.]

Day two she shoved a 18mo hard enought to knock him down and scare him.

Day three, today, she THREW A ROCK AT MY DAD. They KNOW not to throw rocks so there is no way it was an accident (especially because it takes some good aim to hit a person with a rock!). I think her mom told her she would come get her if she misbehaved because soon after she cried, "I just want to go home."

I adore her brother. I like DCG. But there seems to be no rhyme or reason to when she acts out. DCM knows that trial can be shortened/termed for violent behavior.

Would you give them 2 weeks or tell them they're done? Do/should I offer to keep brother? Is there anything else I could/should try to make it work?
If this is her extended trial period, I would be calling mom to pick up for good! Honestly? She is like a loaded cannon and the "I just want to go home" is sad. Her mom needs to deal with what is going on with her. You may want to keep trying, but she could hurt others in your care. Good luck
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gracepatiencelove 11:37 AM 06-03-2014
Originally Posted by Play Care:
Hitting, biting and rock throwing, oh my!

DONE!!!

I would not give a child who BIT me two weeks to assault me some more.
Ugh. I know. I am NOT mad at her (I really think mom plays a BIG role in this). But I am so upset and frustrated. I do have other kids lined up so I'm not worried about income. I just want to be fair to DCG. I think I am #5 or 6 on the care arrangements list. DCM has told me I am her last shot (she walks, I live in the city) and then she will have to quit her job til school. I feel SO bad about it because DCM is signle and HAS to work but... I don't want to get hurt and I'm scared that she might really hurt the other kids.
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nannyde 11:38 AM 06-03-2014
She needs to go today. She needs her own adult who us trained to properly restrain her and take her to the ground. She could really hurt someone. A rock that size aimed at the head of an infant could kill the baby.

She needs intense inpatient therapy. She can't get the trained adult at your house. She needs that today so she needs to be gone today. Offer to keep the brother. They won't do it because they need the brother as bait to take on and keep the sister. If a provider gets both kids she will be hesitant to term because she doesn't want to loose two slots. This buys the parent time she wouldn't get if the older kid was a stand alone slot.
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Lucy 11:40 AM 06-03-2014
I vote for bye bye today. I know it's hard, but with the problem at the previous center, and her troubles with you, it's going to get worse before it gets better.
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childcaremom 11:41 AM 06-03-2014
Originally Posted by gracepatiencelove:
It turns out she was termed from a center for biting hard enough to cause bleeeding which I was NOT told.
I don't know how much you knew going into this situation but ^^^^ concerns me... how much don't you know?

If you have been made aware that there were issues and were willing to work with them for a trial period I would not see the need to extend the trial period beyond this minute. What if it was another dck? There is so much liability with those aggressive behaviours. Can you imagine she had hit a dck with that rock? And she is 4?

I, personally, would have drawn the line at the biting of you, never mind the other behaviours. I would be calling for immediate pick up and be done.

Maybe it's acting out, maybe it's attention seeking. But she needs that from someone who is not responsible for the safety of a group of children because she is a huge liability.

If mom is telling her that she will get picked up if she misbehaves, that is on mom. Not your problem. Get her out of there.
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gracepatiencelove 11:43 AM 06-03-2014
Originally Posted by nannyde:
She needs to go today. She needs her own adult who us trained to properly restrain her and take her to the ground. She could really hurt someone. A rock that size aimed at the head of an infant could kill the baby.

She needs intense inpatient therapy. She can't get the trained adult at your house. She needs that today so she needs to be gone today. Offer to keep the brother. They won't do it because they need the brother as bait to take on and keep the sister. If a provider gets both kids she will be hesitant to term because she doesn't want to loose two slots. This buys the parent time she wouldn't get if the older kid was a stand alone slot.
You're right. It is way too much of a risk to keep her around. I can't save them all. I'm writing up a term letter now and I will accompany it with a short explanation. I am going to point out the infant thing because i do have a little peanut that overlaps with her some days.
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Retired 11:44 AM 06-03-2014
Originally Posted by gracepatiencelove:
DCG nearly 4 threw a rock at my dad when he stopped by today. Like, a fist sized rock. She was sent immediately to time out, fought that like a heathen, kicked and screamed.

I extended her trial period when she had some unruly but not necessarily violent behaviors (just very diruptive) her 1st two weeks.

Day one of extended trial she bit me (not hard, I yanked my hand away fast enough that she just scraped teeth). [It turns out she was termed from a center for biting hard enough to cause bleeeding which I was NOT told.]

Day two she shoved a 18mo hard enought to knock him down and scare him.

Day three, today, she THREW A ROCK AT MY DAD. They KNOW not to throw rocks so there is no way it was an accident (especially because it takes some good aim to hit a person with a rock!). I think her mom told her she would come get her if she misbehaved because soon after she cried, "I just want to go home."

I adore her brother. I like DCG. But there seems to be no rhyme or reason to when she acts out. DCM knows that trial can be shortened/termed for violent behavior.

Would you give them 2 weeks or tell them they're done? Do/should I offer to keep brother? Is there anything else I could/should try to make it work?
Trial over. It shoulda have been day two. This child has issues. I would try to talk to mom, especially if she is hiding things. Sounds like the child is being abused or seeing abuse at home. This not normal aggression. I would ask mom why she thinks she's acting over and depending on her answer possibly call CPS. Terminate both. This is a family, especially with hiding information, I wouldn't want to be around. She's four. She's going to end hurting another child (badly if she's drawing blood and doesn't stop) way before you do her any good. Mom is going to probably say "She never does this/no one told me".
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Retired 11:45 AM 06-03-2014
Originally Posted by ihop:
I'd term. 4 is way too old to excuse that sort of behavior. I would also be concerned that they were hiding the biting from you. I consider any biting past two years old serious, termable behavior.
sorry you are dealing with this.
Same. If a child is able to talk, biting is not acceptable behavior. Biting is only "acceptable" to me when it's a sped child or a child who can't talk. I never too biters period.
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gracepatiencelove 11:47 AM 06-03-2014
Originally Posted by childcaremom:
I don't know how much you knew going into this situation but ^^^^ concerns me... how much don't you know?
Evidently a LOT!

I was told she was termed from ONE center due to behavior issues that were fixed with glasses. And she was good for the first week. Second week, not so great. I learned enough from this forum to do the trial period. She wasn't BAD or violent during the second week of trial, just trying... didn't want to sit in time out when she threw toys, tried to yell at me, taking toys from kids. Not VIOLENT stuff. Then I extended trial due to the very big napping issue (throws her body around at nap time, yells into her cot, etc) since you have to have naptime to stay here (with some exceptions but def not exceptiosn for a kid her age!).

THEN all of this happens the next day. I would bet her mom went home the night I said "extended trial" and threatened her that she would have to stay home and mom would have to stay home and quit her job if she acted up.

I am terming today. I wonder how much else I don't know. This girl is like night and day in behaviors. My mom subs for me and does not believe it because she can be a perfect little angel and funny and kind and then BAM.
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gracepatiencelove 11:49 AM 06-03-2014
Originally Posted by Retired:
Trial over. It shoulda have been day two. This child has issues. I would try to talk to mom, especially if she is hiding things. Sounds like the child is being abused or seeing abuse at home. This not normal aggression. I would ask mom why she thinks she's acting over and depending on her answer possibly call CPS. Terminate both. This is a family, especially with hiding information, I wouldn't want to be around. She's four. She's going to end hurting another child (badly if she's drawing blood and doesn't stop) way before you do her any good. Mom is going to probably say "She never does this/no one told me".
Oh, she knows. I have been keeping a log of incidents with dates/times, etc since I extended trial. She KNOWS it is coming, especially when I reported rock incident.

Thank you all for support.
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daycarediva 11:51 AM 06-03-2014
Adios! I would call and have them picked up immediately. I handled a very aggressive dck for over a year (past abuse) and it was a daily struggle. I won't do that again, ever.
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gracepatiencelove 11:52 AM 06-03-2014
I feel sick to my stomach with this stress
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MissAnn 12:10 PM 06-03-2014
I once kept a boy too long after showing some violent tendencies. He knocked a boy down and that boy had to get stitches very close to his eye. I still kept him....until 2 days later he threw a big rock at another boy. That was his last day. I kept thinking I could just warch him closer. You cannot afford that type of liability. I'd let her go......and I know it's hard.
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Play Care 12:14 PM 06-03-2014
Originally Posted by gracepatiencelove:
I feel sick to my stomach with this stress


As soon as she leaves it will be OVER. You will be all DONE! You will feel the weight of the world off your shoulders.
Hang in there!!!
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Blackcat31 12:15 PM 06-03-2014
Originally Posted by gracepatiencelove:
I feel sick to my stomach with this stress
Hey, dont be so hard on yourself... You already went above and beyond.

You cant walk away feeling like you didnt try hard enough because you tried harder than most so hold you head up high and let her go knowing you are doing everyone a favor.

The kids in your care by keeping them safe and the DCG and her mom by forcing mom to realize her child really does need help.

(((Hugs))).
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Rockgirl 12:17 PM 06-03-2014
Originally Posted by gracepatiencelove:
I feel sick to my stomach with this stress
It will feel so much better after she's gone!
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snbauser 12:18 PM 06-03-2014
It sounds like the more comfortable she gets in an environment, the more her true colors are coming out.
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Unregistered 12:45 PM 06-03-2014
Op here

Told mom. She's resigned but didn't argue.

Dcg is now claiming she was trying to throw it on the ground. When she tells mom that, how do I reply?
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Blackcat31 12:49 PM 06-03-2014
Originally Posted by Unregistered:
Op here

Told mom. She's resigned but didn't argue.

Dcg is now claiming she was trying to throw it on the ground. When she tells mom that, how do I reply?
I wouldn't.

I would tell mom what you originally told her.

If her child has had previous issues with behavior, she is probably pretty good at changing up the story too..kwim?

Kids that have continual behavioral issues become VERY skilled at knowing what to say, how to say it and when.

Tell mom that is simply not true and besides, throwing a rock period is NOT ok. Whether she was aiming at the ground or a person.

She should not have thrown it anywhere unless you gave permission and there was a point to the throwing...watching ripples in the water as you toss rocks in etc...
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Jack Sprat 12:51 PM 06-03-2014
Originally Posted by gracepatiencelove:
I feel sick to my stomach with this stress
This will go away once you term! I had a very similar situation. I hung on till two weeks ago. I feel SO much better now. It's hard to term, it sucks all around. But, in the long run its worth it!
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gracepatiencelove 01:37 PM 06-03-2014
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
I wouldn't.

I would tell mom what you originally told her.

If her child has had previous issues with behavior, she is probably pretty good at changing up the story too..kwim?

Kids that have continual behavioral issues become VERY skilled at knowing what to say, how to say it and when.

Tell mom that is simply not true and besides, throwing a rock period is NOT ok. Whether she was aiming at the ground or a person.

She should not have thrown it anywhere unless you gave permission and there was a point to the throwing...watching ripples in the water as you toss rocks in etc...

You're right. I guess I just feel like I am a horrible provider now. This DCG coupled with my own 3.5yo going through a horrible defiant stage. Ugh.

Thanks guys. I am going on vacation this weekend so I'm glad it's over. As someone oft quoted in my home said, "the past is in the past" and soon this will be in the past!
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e.j. 04:57 PM 06-03-2014
Originally Posted by gracepatiencelove:
You're right. I guess I just feel like I am a horrible provider now.
You're not a horrible provider for terming a child who has behavior issues that put others at risk. You're safeguarding the other kids in your care and you're protecting your business and good name. Besides, you don't want to have her playing role model for your son if he is going through his own defiant stage right now.

You also may be helping her more than you know right now. There are only so many day cares she can be kicked out of before her mother has to face the fact that her dd needs something she isn't getting right now. It could be more effective discipline at home, it could be professional help.... This could be the termination that wakes dcm up and forces her into action.
Enjoy your vacation. Sounds like you deserve one!
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Unregistered 05:20 PM 06-03-2014
OP here

She didn't even pick up her kids. Had her mom do it. Said she'd swing by tomorrow and pick up their stuff and give me the rest of the $ she owes. That was easier than I thought!
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Laurel 06:30 PM 06-03-2014
Originally Posted by Unregistered:
OP here

She didn't even pick up her kids. Had her mom do it. Said she'd swing by tomorrow and pick up their stuff and give me the rest of the $ she owes. That was easier than I thought!
I bet she won't bring the money. I collect on the Monday before care is provided. Hope she does though.

Laurel
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nannyde 08:31 PM 06-03-2014
She won't bring the money but you will get a dhs visit so get ready.
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TaylorTots 08:37 PM 06-03-2014
Alright, why do we think she will get a DHS visit? I missed something nannyde

And though I don't believe it, I am on your side and hope she brings the money!
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Play Care 04:03 AM 06-04-2014
Originally Posted by TaylorTots:
Alright, why do we think she will get a DHS visit? I missed something nannyde

And though I don't believe it, I am on your side and hope she brings the money!
I imagine because mom will be upset. So she will call and claim the provider was horrible or abusive or whatever nonsense. And they *have* to investigate. OP if you are licensed your first call today should be to your licensor to let her know what has happened, sticking to the facts - aggressive child (biting, hitting, throwing rocks, etc.) and you termed. It won't mean you won't get a visit, but it usually is helpful giving them the full picture.
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coolconfidentme 04:23 AM 06-04-2014
Originally Posted by nannyde:
She won't bring the money but you will get a dhs visit so get ready.
TRUTH!!
Make sure you tell licensing of DCG's behavior. It happened to me, but I kept licensing informed of the behavior along the way.
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childcaremom 04:37 AM 06-04-2014
Originally Posted by gracepatiencelove:
I guess I just feel like I am a horrible provider now.
No. You aren't. You tried and gave this girl a chance to thrive in your environment.
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gracepatiencelove 06:00 AM 06-04-2014
Originally Posted by coolconfidentme:
TRUTH!!
Make sure you tell licensing of DCG's behavior. It happened to me, but I kept licensing informed of the behavior along the way.
I have a written log of incidents after extended trial, but that's literally just 3 days worth of info. I also have texts between me and mom re the behavior.

What should my email to my licensor say?
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Blackcat31 06:16 AM 06-04-2014
Originally Posted by gracepatiencelove:
I have a written log of incidents after extended trial, but that's literally just 3 days worth of info. I also have texts between me and mom re the behavior.

What should my email to my licensor say?
Just give her a run down of what happened. A quick e-mail summarizing the events and letting her know you have incident logs and texts to confirm.

Just so your licensor has the provider "report" before the parent calls and makes accusations.

NOT saying she will but being proactive helps.
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NightOwl 02:14 PM 06-04-2014
Im wondering if she showed up to pay?
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Unregistered 08:23 PM 06-04-2014
In order to be constructive, I'd add to the letter or conversation that the child will be more successful in an environment with multiple adults and I would suggest that she consider having the child evaluated. This could be Aspergers or some other disorder. They tend to manifest differently in girls than boys.
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DaisyMamma 07:03 AM 06-05-2014
say goodbye and move on.
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drseuss 08:48 AM 06-05-2014
Originally Posted by Unregistered:
In order to be constructive, I'd add to the letter or conversation that the child will be more successful in an environment with multiple adults and I would suggest that she consider having the child evaluated. This could be Aspergers or some other disorder. They tend to manifest differently in girls than boys.
OT, but can't let this one go...Violence is NOT A SYMPTOM OR SIGN OF AS. You need to stop saying that, as it perpetuates fear and negativity toward those with the disorder.
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gracepatiencelove 11:08 AM 06-05-2014
Originally Posted by drseuss:
OT, but can't let this one go...Violence is NOT A SYMPTOM OR SIGN OF AS. You need to stop saying that, as it perpetuates fear and negativity toward those with the disorder.
I fully know this but I would like to add that she did have a lot of behaviors that were very similar to my other DCG with ASD (who has never intentionally hurt anyone).

This girl (rock thrower) was spanked and I believe her mom probably smacked her (in the face) but I have no proof. I think violence begets violence.
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gracepatiencelove 11:11 AM 06-05-2014
Originally Posted by Wednesday:
Im wondering if she showed up to pay?
Nope.

She owes me $4.

I think I am just going to leave it and drop their stuff in a bag on her porch and text to let her know that. Or just keep it ready to go for a few a while then toss. I'm not eating the cost of certified mailing or anything, no way, but it's $4, and I would have paid her $4 for her to leave anyway lol.
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EntropyControlSpecialist 01:13 PM 06-05-2014
Originally Posted by drseuss:
OT, but can't let this one go...Violence is NOT A SYMPTOM OR SIGN OF AS. You need to stop saying that, as it perpetuates fear and negativity toward those with the disorder.
Yes. I am not nor have I ever been violent.
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Tags:preschooler biting, shoving, violence, violent behaviour
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