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Old 09-15-2011, 05:12 PM
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Default Nap Advice PLEASE

I'm registered on here but chose to stay logged out for this.

We have a 3 yr old dcg who has become EXTREMELY difficult at nap time (she's going through this stage of defiance for the fun of it. yeah, I'm serious. She's found an enjoyment for defiance. Never seen anything like it). Anyway, at nap time she has become impossible to get to sleep. She's so tired, she could go to sleep in two mintues time, if she'd just let herself lay still that long (her eyelids are so droopy, and she'll be yawning the whole time, rubbing her eyes, etc). She's always been quick to go to sleep, and she still is, once she lets herself, but it's like she's decided she doesn't want a nap, and since she doesn't, no one else should either. She will NOT lay down on her own. She has to be placed on her cot. Then she continues to fight us, trying to get up, playing around on her cot, talking really loud, etc. The others might get to sleep if they're lucky, but she just refuses to let herself, so she'll yell, talk out loud, jump off her cot and run, go around and wake the others up, etc. If we are right beside her, trying to pat her back, she'll squirm around, and be as loud as she can. Then she'll shove our hand away, and stand on her cot, or scoot herself forward to kick her feet against the wall, or slap them on the floor and have a really loud screaming fit when she has to be physically laid back down again. Which of course wakes everyone up. There isn't any other room to place her in.

I can't even use the restroom because as soon as I walk away she jumps up and go around to wake the others up by tickling them, yanking their blankets off, etc. or just run off to play with toys (and make as much noise as possible with them). I'm about to lose it. I cannot go through this everyday! But termination is NOT an option. We can't term her just because she won't nap. Besides that, there's no way we could afford (financially) to lose her either. She's been here since she was a baby, so we have this attachment thing. Her parents are having the same problem, but at least at home she's an only child and her non-nap doesn't result in nobody else having a nap. The afternoons have been awful because everyone (especially her) are so tired, and of course behaviors are at their worse when they're tired. By the way, I'm not the owner, so I couldn't term her, for that reason alone (but even if I was the owner I couldn't do it). I've never had this much trouble with a child before. Even the most difficult ones go to sleep, or at least know to lay quietly. This one, though, I have to sit beside the whole time to keep her from waking everyone up. I'm sure its probably for the attention, but if I walk away so she's not getting that attention (or if I'm busting to use the restroom too much to hold it any longer), she will immediately get up. If I could set her up with quiet activities, but that won't work either because she just seems determined to be as loud as possible. The owner sometimes has this problem, but not every time, like me. I'm ready to scream. or cry. Something.

Please tell me what you'd do if you were in this situation (without the option of terming)

Last edited by Michael; 09-15-2011 at 06:56 PM.
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Old 09-15-2011, 06:57 PM
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Michael Michael is online now
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A couple links that may help: http://www.daycare.com/forum/tags.php?tag=won%27t+sleep

http://www.daycare.com/forum/tags.php?tag=won%27t+sleep
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Old 09-15-2011, 10:01 PM
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Since you don't have the option of separating her, can you arrange it so she can lay down before the other kids, maybe sit with her then and get her to sleep that way?

I don't generally have naptime problems, and that's about all I can think of.
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Old 09-16-2011, 07:03 AM
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Have you had a conference with the parents yet?

You asked for advice, so.... I recommend having them be forced to take time out of their work day to come in and work out a Formal Discipline Plan.

Obviously the current one is not working.

Discuss the issue and decide, together, what a proper consequence for her behavior will be. Have them sign that they will also be following this plan.

By working together, at 3 years old, you have a much better chance of correcting this.

Now, I went through this last year with a 3.5 year old (all day, every day, not just during nap). 4 plans, parents followed most recommendations (sweetest people ever) but it still resulted in termination.

They would not have their child evaluated, afraid of them being labeled (which is worse? Dreaded or Clinically Diagnosed ). I could no longer allow this child to continue to interfere with the other children's happiness.

Unfortunately, the problem still persists and the parents can barely go out in public. Parents are the ones who have the ultimate responsibility for their child. Sometimes we have to accept that we can't "save" them all.

Personally, I would take my child out of a daycare that had a reputation of refusal to remove kids who constantly disrupted my child's happiness (I know OP has no choice , just a general statement for directors/owners). I am sure LOTS of parents feel the same.
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Old 09-16-2011, 07:50 AM
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do you give her warning that its going to be bed time, I know some use timers. Also, supernanny uses a good technique, its the no talking technique. You tell her its time for bed, get her situated. turn you back on her (still sit there) if she gets up, put her back, but don't talk to her, every time she gets up put her back down, never talk to her. Eventually she will get so tired of it and go to sleep, it will take several days but it does work.
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Old 09-16-2011, 08:06 AM
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We had a kid like this at the daycare centre where I worked. We ended up getting a timer and a few little doller store toys. Every 15 minutes he was allowed to get a new toy to play quietly on his cot. We just rotated the same 10 toys every day. It really worked for him. Find toys that would be really enticing for her. She still might not sleep but it might help her to stay on her cot?

I always say the same phrase when dealing with wiggly giggly kids. I simply say "it's quiet time now, time to rest your body" over and over again and I don't engage them at all except to say this occassionally in a soft soothing voice. I have calm kids though!
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Old 09-16-2011, 07:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by countrymom View Post
do you give her warning that its going to be bed time, I know some use timers. Also, supernanny uses a good technique, its the no talking technique. You tell her its time for bed, get her situated. turn you back on her (still sit there) if she gets up, put her back, but don't talk to her, every time she gets up put her back down, never talk to her. Eventually she will get so tired of it and go to sleep, it will take several days but it does work.
I thought that was really good advice (I love super nanny!), and I've been trying that. Sitting by her, but basically ignoring her (that's after I've exhausted trying the calming back rub). But she starts talking to me while I'm sitting there, and the more I don't respond to her, the louder she gets. Then she starts with the getting up, or kicking the wall, flopping her feet against the floor, just anything to keep herself moving. As soon as she gets up, I lay her back down. Immediately she jumps up again (that is if she doesn't have the loud fit instead), so I lay her down again, back and forth. But she LOVES this! Like it's a game. And she does not get tired of it. She turns it into a "how fast can I jump up and run the other direction before she can catch me?" game. She'll run off laughing. I take her hand and bring her back to her cot. She either tries to jerk away and then says I'm hurting her when I don't let go, or has another fit, or tries something else on her cot to stay awake. I'm pretty sure it's for the attention, but if I don't sit right there with her, she gets up and bothers the others, or starts playing with the toys, or comes to me to talk (which I then don't respond, trying to discourage her from any interaction (since it's not the time for it), but she gets so upset when I don't respond and just talks louder. Or starts crying. Loudly.
She does have warning that it's nap time. We have lunch, then a few minutes on cot with a book (while we clean up), then the books get put away, and we start patting backs. She, on the other hand, runs to play with toys. When told to choose a book and go to her cot she has an immediate fit, "not wanting a nap. Not tired". She is really smart, and knows the routine (it's been the same for I don't know how long!). Right before we dismiss from lunch, we remind them to choose a book and go to their cot. I set up cots while they're eating, so they can see nap times coming even before we have to say it.
Thanks for the suggestions! Keep them coming please!
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Old 09-17-2011, 03:08 AM
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It's not that you would ever terminate for not napping, this isn't the case. You would not be terminating because of disrespect and not being a good fit for the group with behavior issues.

We give 2 warnings. Maybe you should stop announcing that it's nap time soon because it's a routine and all the kids know it. Announcing it only gives her time to plan her actions. If a child was being rude and disruptive--nap time or not--they would take a break or have a consequence. This child now believes it's okay to pull blankets off of friends who are sleeping, that it's okay to be loud during nap, that it's okay to run around the room, that it's okay to kick the wall. This child probably doesn't know it's okay to rest. LOL

You should talk to the parents because something may have changed at home. Afterall providing child care should be a partnership with the parents.

Don't work with bribes. I read a post that sounded like it was bribing I just can't remember exactly. Figure out what this child loves about daycare in general and use it to your advantage. It'll become a reward to help you through this stage, but not necessarily a reward since you would just limit something. Ex. she likes to do calendar time in the mornings, so if she doesn't lay nicely and quietly for 30 minutes by herself (put a timer out of her reach) then someone else will get to do it tomorrow or later.
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Old 09-17-2011, 05:10 AM
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This can get really dangerous to you if you do any kind of physical putting her back to nap movements.

She's figured out to say "you are hurting me" to get your physical response to her to lessen.

When you have a kid who is physically resisting their resistance can cause enough force that you could end up with her claiming she is hurt or her rikashaying (sp) downwards once you let go of her.

At this point she knows that she gets to get up and carry on and there is NOTHING you can do about it. It keeps happening because she fully understands with your touch, body language, words, facial expressions etc. that you can't do anything at all about her doing what she wants.

She knows the kiddie version of "you can't term". She gets that you must allow her to do as she wishes and she wishes to have an adult play with her constantly and be able to have the excitement of interfering with the other kids at nap.

She's so excited about being able to take over this room and you that she is the happiest little girl in the world during nap. She's hit the JACKPOT of situations and she is digging it.

There is NOTHING you can do about it. There's no techniques to use. Even if you agreed to provide one to one adult playing... whatever you could possibly come up with will be boring to her compared to what she is doing now. She won't settle for "sit at the table and paint, do play doh, read books".... she has had hyper frenetic raise hell and get an adult to "chase" after her every movement. Anything you calmly do with her will fail.

She's just got ya and there's no way out. If the Director refuses to term then you have to allow her to decide what goes on at nap for herself, you, and the others. There's no other way.

Please please keep your hands off of her completely unless you are protecting her from immediate harm and harm of the other kids. This situation could lead to her having some injury because of the force of her pulling, pushing, running away from you while you have your hands on her even when they are gentle hands that mean no harm.
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Old 09-17-2011, 07:30 PM
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I agree with the idea of sitting next to her cot and not engaging her. I also think she needs to go on her mat 15-30 min BEFORE everyone else. Maybe her mat needs to be in the kitchen where you can see her. Obvisouly she is not going to fall asleep with the commotion of the others but the point you need to make to her is that she does not control the situation with her behavior. I would make it a privledge to be near the other kids. If she can regulate her behaviors during nap for xx amount of time (you decide) then you can move her back to the area where other kids are. Then and only then does her nap time get moved back to the same time as the other kids.

I also think you should not have to put her back on her cot physically. Talk to her parents about this. You should never be in the position to have to do this as it can get out of hand quickly. I had one mom talk to her daughter about nap issues and made her do chores if she disrupted nap time while her brother got to play. Once this dcg knew her behavior at daycare was going to cause problems for her at home she stopped.

I would also offer books as an option. Kids at my house can read quietly on their mat all they want during nap. If they are loud or disruptive then books go away. Nobody tests me on this more than once. If they lose books today they get to try again the next nap day.
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Old 09-17-2011, 09:55 PM
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Is this a home or center? MAKE room for her to be by herself during nap.
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Old 09-18-2011, 08:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nannyde View Post
This can get really dangerous to you if you do any kind of physical putting her back to nap movements.

She's figured out to say "you are hurting me" to get your physical response to her to lessen.

When you have a kid who is physically resisting their resistance can cause enough force that you could end up with her claiming she is hurt or her rikashaying (sp) downwards once you let go of her.

At this point she knows that she gets to get up and carry on and there is NOTHING you can do about it. It keeps happening because she fully understands with your touch, body language, words, facial expressions etc. that you can't do anything at all about her doing what she wants.

She knows the kiddie version of "you can't term". She gets that you must allow her to do as she wishes and she wishes to have an adult play with her constantly and be able to have the excitement of interfering with the other kids at nap.

She's so excited about being able to take over this room and you that she is the happiest little girl in the world during nap. She's hit the JACKPOT of situations and she is digging it.

There is NOTHING you can do about it. There's no techniques to use. Even if you agreed to provide one to one adult playing... whatever you could possibly come up with will be boring to her compared to what she is doing now. She won't settle for "sit at the table and paint, do play doh, read books".... she has had hyper frenetic raise hell and get an adult to "chase" after her every movement. Anything you calmly do with her will fail.

She's just got ya and there's no way out. If the Director refuses to term then you have to allow her to decide what goes on at nap for herself, you, and the others. There's no other way.

Please please keep your hands off of her completely unless you are protecting her from immediate harm and harm of the other kids. This situation could lead to her having some injury because of the force of her pulling, pushing, running away from you while you have your hands on her even when they are gentle hands that mean no harm.

NannyDe I completely get what you're saying about the "hands off" thing. But when she's kicking the wall with her feet and making so much noise she could wake the other kids up, or getting up and running for the noisy toys to bang around and wake the kids up, or to go directly over to wake the others up, what do you do instead of physically stopping her, when she will NOT stop with words alone, no matter how firm you are about it? We wouldn't be able to do ANYthing with her if we couldn't touch her. She'd be running the show (worse than now), and never doing anything she's supposed to, never stop what she's not supposed to be doing, etc. She resists any kind of verbal direction, but mainly the worst part is nap since it affects the other kids and everyone's afternoon when she's so tired and cranky by the time everyone gets up (she's also the last one to leave on her days there-she's part time). Her parents are having trouble with her at home also and they don't know what's going on with her either. They are very good with her and don't let her by with everything. For at childcare, I think she just knows we can't do anything.
Abigail, what kind of consequence could I put into place for a 3 yr old who doesn't care about anything except what she wants to do at that particular moment? Anything "later" or "next time" doesn't mean anything to her, since she just cares about here and now. If you or anyone else has suggestions for consequnces for her behavior, I'm all ears! I haven't found anything that affects her yet.
I'm at a home daycare, and everything is in one room, except the bathroom (lol) and kitchen (but I can't exactly leave her alone in the kitchen. It doesn't seem safe for one thing, and for the other, I'd be stuck in the kitchen the whole time with her, since the kitchen is attached to the room everyone else is in and she doesn't stay on her cot in there either (I've tried it. I think she liked it better than being in the other room (Different scenry maybe...?). She didnt used to be like this though, so I don't want her to be termed. I just want her to return to her normal self!
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