I have a dck that is 3.5. While I hate to label children, I am almost 100% positive that this child is ADHD.

I have never met a child that is so hyper to the point that they don't sleep. They don't sleep at home, they don't sleep here at nap time, but will lay and fidget on the nap mat for 2 hours. I thought all this time the child was sleeping, that was until last week, I bought a video monitor to watch the kids better during nap time that I started to notice that this kid is not sleeping during nap time at all ever.

Circle time, the child can't hold still for 1 second, so we ask him to rub his legs, or rub the floor or something of the like so he can distract himself long enough through the story/lesson.

DCP are divorced, only lives with mom and she says the same. His distraction rate is so bad that I have resulted to buying picture cards for him to use when we are transitioning, doing activities or such.

He can not do any table time at all, he can barley sit through lunch in a chair.

I am not sure if this is a result of lack of sleep or if he has ADHD disorder. I have not mentioned anything to DCM.

Well today I had my teacher come into my preschool circle time to do an observation. This child was so out of control that my teacher asked him to remove himself from circle time. She looked at me and said let's talk later about that. I did not know what to do or say??????????????

This child has been with me about 1.5 years and I am starting to see the behavior get worse and worse, he seems to have no self regulation, especially when it comes to how hyper he is. He can NOT listen to anything you say. ALL listening has gone out the window. I try to make eye contact with him and set CLEAR expectations, nothing seems to work.

TOday at pick up I started to tell mom what went on here today while the kids were still playing outside with my asst. As soon as I told her, she started to tear up. She told me I don't know what to do anymore. I felt so bad for her, because I am starting to feel the same way.

This little boy is VERY smart, one of the smartest boys I have here. I just don't know how to help him.

Currently when he can't control himself I ask him to sit on a bouncy ball and bounce it out. Lately that is not working. It also seems that all of my past tricks I had in my bag to help him calm down, no longer work.

I am going to sit and talk with DCM about how we can help DCK by working together, but right now I am fresh out of ideas on what to say or how to help.

Any advise would be great....thanks so much

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It sounds like you are doing all you can. There are a variety of things that could be causing these behaviors. I'm no expert but even autism spectrum disorders can cause similar behavior, usually from overstimulation. Sitting down with DCM and being open about your observations is probably your best bet for you and DCB. Mom needs to get him evaluated WITHOUT saying ADHD. A full evaluation would be better than, "well let's just try this". To be supportive, you could offer to mom to write up an observation report for the Dr. citing specific examples of behaviors and progression of adaptations in your care. There may be small clues in there that can help in a diagnosis. The sooner he is diagnosed the sooner everyone can begin to help him.

Good luck!

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So do you think it would be wise to just tell mom that at this point I really feel that this needs to be addressed by a medical professional?

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If mom says she has no idea what to do anymore...how come she hasn't brought this to the attention of her pediatrician already?

As a parent, that would be my first thing to rule out.

How much time does this child get outdoors?

Not walking or going on a nature hike or to the zoo or anything like that...I mean "full on outside run around like a crazy man" outside time?

9 out 10 cases of kids who "appear" to be ADHD simply lack the outside or large motor time.

To me it sounds like this kid is developmentally not equipped or mature enough to manage structured academics.

He sounds like the type of kid who needs to be in an environment that allows him to physically move when ever he needs to.

The moving, rubbing and constant active behaviors are signs that are basically screaming "I am NOT ready to sit in a classroom all day...I need to be a little kid and just play and run and play and run"

I know you run a preschool type program but in my honest opinion this kid doesn't sound like he is ready for or in need of that type of set up.....kwim?

Sounds to me like he is simply missing out on the fundamentals of play.

Needing to physically move is just like sleep. If that need isn't met, he isn't going to succeed in other areas such as sleep and eating and paying attention...etc.

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BC I would agree with what you are saying, but we have MORE thank enough out door time. On tuesday we went on a 4 mile hike. Daily we spend at least 2 hours outside. 1 hr in am and 1 in pm.

As you know, I love fitness, so a lot of my childcare revolves around it. EX. tomorrow we are having a mini bootcamp, the kids love love love it.

The child is DISTRACTED beyond belief. If I tell the child go to the bathroom, they end up getting distracted and go to their cubby box.

DCM shared with me that over the holiday that they were kicked out of a friends youth soccer game that they were guest at because he would not listen to anyone and stay off of the field. When mom tried to remove him from the field, he took her on a wild goose chase.

I do see times that he can self regulate, but then I would say 90% of the time he can't.

I have not spoken with my teacher yet, but the way I am seeing it, is that if she could not handle him, then there must be something up.

Like I said, nothing here has changed, but I am seeing his hyperness increase. I am seeing him not able to control himself at all, especially when it comes to something where he gets any form of stimulation.

BC thank you for responding to this post. I spent all night thinking about it.

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sorry I wanted to add, that in past months the child has been able to sit for activities, able to play with the other kids no problem, and able to sit through circle time. It was never easy for this child, they did struggle a little, but for the most part, he was learning during these time and you could tell he really really enjoyed it.

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This ^^^ and as a person with ADHD myself I will let you in on a few things.

1. Learning from lecture does not work. Modeling, repetition, graphics, hands on/child directed experimentation (and later READING) will be where most of the learning occurs. ADHD and graphic learning go hand in hand.

2. For every 15 minutes of table/rug/quiet activities there needs to be 30 minutes of physical activity. Stretches, aerobics, zumba, running relays... it all works wonders.

3. Carbs/Starches/Sugars (milk, fruit, bread, and pasta are sugar ) are the enemy during "institutional" time; remember "just a dab will do you". 45-60 minutes of physical activity after all meals will be necessary.

4. We are not meant to be cubicle people, the school system labeled us "disordered" but in reality, we are more likely to survive in the wild than most "model students". We also thrive and cope better in times of crisis. It is not a disability, it is an adaptation.... it just does not work well with our current educational system.

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Oh I know you spend time out side. I also KNOW your program is great about all areas of development.

What I am saying is it sounds like he needs ALL unstructured activities.

He needs to just go outside and play.

Not hiking, not doing a nature hunt, not doing anything specific...just playing/running.

I am really thinking he is having trouble simply because he isn't ready for any type of structure.

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Does he sleep at night? They are finding a large connection between lack of sleep and ADHD/ADD. Starts when infants and they don't learn routines and good sleep habits.

I had a little guy that parents never would make him sleep ànd ended up on Ritalin because his behavior was off the ceiling. About 3rd grade they moved and his new pediatrician suggested a sleep program at Children's Hospital. OMG! Not the same child.

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Thanks for posting.

I understand what you are saying, really I do and what you are saying is what my program sounds like. We are VERY hands on, we are not the kind that sit at tables and do ditto sheets or glue things together. If you want to you can, but we are more about getting dirty, digging thought bins of mud looking for objects, or bins of rice looking for things.

Today for example we will dance, we will participate in movement cards, we will roll dice and then jump the number of times read. Our stories are movement participation stories, move move move move move.

I don't offer the kind of program that requires anyone to SIT, except for table time.

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DCM told me that he goes to bed around 9pm, but will play, toss, turn and get up out of bed a million times. She said that she goes to bed around 1am after watching her shows, and often she can still hear him talking or singing to himself in his room.

She said that he wakes up daily about 530-6am

He is not napping when here, just found this out.

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He does have this option to not follow out program. He can go with the younger kids in the free play/movement room.

My asst can not handle him, he will not listen to her, he breaks everything in there and because he is so hyper he will accidentally end up hurting one of the little ones.

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Is he destructive on purpose?

When he "will not listen" is it simple lack of attention/concentration or is he being defiant?

Do you have a way to keep him away from smaller kids?

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why hasn't mom did anything or brought him to the dr.
also, at night, since he can't turn himself off, maybe mom should try some melatonin. I know some don't agree with it, but it does work. Im wondering if he's so over tired now that he just doesn't know how to control it-like a second wind.
also, how is his eating and what is he eating. I also think maybe speaking to him in short sentences will work too.
also, is mom making excuses for the bad behavior--like the running on the field would have resulted in a punishment kwim.

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Oh, hun.. I don't think you make him sit at a table all day. I am telling you my experience, my life with this.

Honestly, from reading further.. I don't think simple ADHD is what you are dealing with.

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I believe it is all of them above.

Yes I can keep him from the smaller kids, but then he has to stay in the preschool room with us.

this kids need 100% attention all the time.

like when he does a puzzle, he will fit one piece in and then jump up and down, run all over the place, yell, scream, clap his hands and ALWAYS has to show every person in the house. He will do it for each and every piece.

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We eat healthy here, I am not too sure how he eats at home. Mom works for an organic food company, but I am not going to assume that they eat all of that food.

I don't know why mom has not talked to the doc about it. Honestly, it just recently really escalated.

The mom does and did discipline him for what happen at the soccer field. Then again, I am not there, so I don't know what exactly she is doing.

THis is why I need to sit and talk with her and we need to figure out how to help him. I don't know what it is and I really want to make sure that he gets what he needs. Even if that means my place is not the right environment for him.

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I agree with everyone else.. Keep talking to mom about having him evaluated. Unfortunately, that has been a losing battle for me lately as more and more parents seem to want to ignore this stuff until school age. Making the appts and following through on the paperwork seems to turn them off about half-way through..

For you: http://www.additudemag.com/adhd-web/article/4646.html

Even without a DX these strategies can help you cope.

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As a mom with an ADD child and now 2 dgc with ADHD I would say there is a good chance he is.. BUT I also think there is more going one here than just that. I would suggest he get evaluated and services what ever it is it is interfering with his participation in group activities. That alone would get him into a special services program.

It is unlikely meds would be tried until school age but even if they do it is a lot of behavior modification and even learning different parenting techniques.

Weighted vests work for some kids for circle time. Keep it short no longer than 5 minutes for him then he needs to stand up and move.

We tried diet but it made no difference but I have read SOME children with gluten allergies or food dyes can cause the same symptoms. A total elimination diet is the only way to find out.

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Contact his school district to see if they have a referral program in place that you can refer him thru. You will have to get the parent on board but ours is helpful with that also. We also have a "clearinghouse" of sorts that puts you in touch with the right programs and organizations that he might benefit from, called Common Ground. Try United Way? Google his problem and your county or district to see if anything pops up. Local children's hospitals or even your local R&R for day care.

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My first thoughts! Thanks for saving me the typing BC.
Also, is she in concerned and he is indeed not sleeping which can lead to be hyper etc she needs to talk to his ped. But, first I would try doing what BC said.

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Love this comment!

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Also sleep deprivation mimics ADD or ADHD BIG time!

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Is he Autistic? Sounds like the mom needs to get him in to the doc asap. Poor kid

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I am not too sure what is going on with this child. I will be meeting with my teacher later tonight to go over my eval, and we plan to talk about it then. I can't recall her exact background and title, but she has years of experience working with special needs and I believe a degree in child physiology.

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I think the sleep deprivation is definitely playing a role in this. If he's not napping, often going to sleep after 1am, and waking up at 5:30-6am, he is not even getting half of what is typically needed for his age. Of course you can't 'force' someone to sleep. Keeping a log at home and at daycare of actual sleep I'm sure would be helpful for the professionals looking at 'the big picture'.

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very good point. I will be keeping a log of food intake, sleep, behavior and so on. I will share with you my feed back from my teacher..

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I have a 6 year old DCB who has been diagnosed with Asperger's and Anxiety Disorder and your description of this boy sounds a lot like him.

Last year was tough with him but DCM is really great and works really hard to improve his behavior including diet changes and sleep pattern changes. He is not on any meds but did a lot of therapy camps throughout the summer and we have noticed a big improvement here with him.

DCM sends me lots of tricks, games, and workbooks for him to make things easier on me.

I hate to be mean here but it sounds as though DCM is kind of lazy....lack of sleep can cause major issues for kids, especially kids who are predisposed to anxiety Problems or ADHD. Overly tired kids don't sleep well and tend to not nap well either. They also have more nightmares, night terrors and don't sleep as deeply. DCM needs to get on top of this and have this kid evaluated or start trying different techniques of relaxation for him in order to soothe him to sleep at night! He may also be suffering from major anxiety from the divorce, especially since he seems so intent on getting your approval when he does something good like find the right puzzle piece. No matter what, he should be seen by someone!

In the meantime, here are a few tricks of the trade for the little guy I have -

Tons of praise when he is doing what is "expected" of him.

Soothing music.

Lots of warning and explanation about what is coming up next to make transitions easier on him.

I have an area that he can go to when he doesn't want to participate in group activities and I always tell him that he can join in if he likes but there is no pressure.

He wears a busy necklace to keep his hands busy.

White noise during rest times.

Flip and find books, busy boards and sorting games work great for busy hands as well.

I try to limit the amount of active time we do indoors when he is here as well because once he goes up, he has a hard time coming back down. We save movement games for outdoors where he can kind of let loose without too many limitations.

Good luck and I hope DCM steps up to the plate and starts taking her mom role seriously for his sake.

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I don't know if a professional would be able to address this just yet. And she probably isn't going to want to medicate anyway. I am putting together a pamphlet on Adhd and sleep that I could send you when I am done if you like.
There are several studies that indicate they go hand in hand. Adhd makes it hard to sleep, and parents are exhausted so they will do just about ANYTHING to get the child to lay down and be quiet for a bit. We all know what that will do, so the behavior escalates, the sleep deprivation gets worse, and the Adhd escalates. Huge vicious circle.
The study showed if you can stop the sleep issues with quality parenting (adhd style) the child is able to better focus, and feels more secure, so the adhd symptoms die down, etc...

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Considering that he is laying on his mat quiet, but fidgeting for 2 hours at daycare, I really don't think this is a 'quality parenting' issue causing lack of sleep. Again, you can't force someone to sleep, they put him to bed at 9... Perhaps taking any distractions out of his room.... but considering what's happening at daycare I'm not sure this would help either.
He probably should be recorded at home at night, so they can start documenting actual sleep (and also possibly how restless even that sleep is), and talk to or be evaluated by child sleep specialist.
I read something about removing tonsils and adenoids to help children sleep who had issues with those being large and causing sleep apnea, hopefully it's not a more serious medical condition causing lack of sleep. Many years ago I read about a 2 year old who had a surgery on something happening in his brain to help with not EVER getting deep sleep, his behavior and development issues took care of themselves after (I can't find it now, and don't remember the specifics).
If he really is getting less then 4-5 hours of sleep a day, this needs to be addressed, and I don't think the 'standard' answers of what to do to help a child sleep is going to solve this.

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Didn't mean to step on these posts at all. They both have a lot of good information and thoughts. Trying the techniques are definitely worth a try (if they haven't already), and any doctor will probably go through this list, or similar and want her to try some things a different way.
I would definitely be interested by what you mean by 'quality parenting (adhd style)'.
We definitely all agree he needs help. I hope they can figure out soon what's going on with him.

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Not a problem. It is pretty weird for a kid to not sleep at all. If that is what is going on, a med eval is probably not a bad idea.
However, Adhd kids are different. Most of the techniques that work great for other kids, just don't work for them. And some that do just have to be so incredibly consistent.
My youngest son will not (cannot) let an inconsistency go, so if we allowed him to stay up 5 mins past his bedtime one night, it will take MONTHS of consistency for him to realize we really mean bedtime. An average kid might take a few days to get that. He will not.
Some need silence. Not what WE think of as silence to sleep, but real silence. Some can handle some noise, but only a solid, non changing sound.

And overall, many of them just wear parents down. They are great kids, funny, energetic, smart, but they are tiring, even if they are not misbehaving. Just being in the same room can be wearing. I have a set of parents that are WONDERFUL parents, but even they resort to the "anything to get sleep" method, because their son just wears you out.

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So I had a really long talk with my teacher. She said in her 35 years of doing this she has never seen a child this out of control with them self.

She gave me a packet to document him over the next 5 days starting next week. She will check back in with me mid-next week to see how things are going.

I will be talking to DCM to also do the same and then mom will need to go and take him to get evaluated.

She hugged me and said I don't know how you go through your days with this child, I was only there 2.5 hours and I could not watch it.

Today when we were playing at circle time I put the child on my lap to share and sign with him a song. His legs and feet were actually shaking the whole time and not kicking, I mean shaking. VERY odd.

He's such a happy kid, I hope that we get it all sorted out.......

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something is going on, but I don't adhd (I hate constantly throwing that term around seems like everyone has it)
do you think teaching relaxation stuff would work, I'm wondering if he is on such a high (could mom be medicating him with something????) that he can't get down now.

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(Edited - pressed the wrong "quote" first.)

And so does giftedness.

#1 - food diary/behavior diary

His new favorite food may be making him bonkers.

If her insurance will pay for it, an evaluation sounds like it's in order. I don't think it will hurt.

Not pro medication at that age but his body has to rest. Again, to me it sounds like a gifted kid who can't shut off his mind or body.

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