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Old 07-23-2013, 11:17 AM
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I am going to give the mom of my dcb3 a plan of action today for his aggressive behavior. I have the actual plan written up (thanks so much EntropyControlSpecialist!) but I am wondering if I should attach a cover letter?

My main reason for thinking I need to explain myself more than just w/ the plan is because mom totally denies that there is a problem at all, and if there is it is our fault. Every time it is an excuse- he is having "allergies", he is tired, he was with his older cousins, this weekend, he has an ear infection, he just wants to play and the other kids must be leaving him out (they do not do this), he doesn't ever do it anywhere else (I have seen him get physical w/ his mom on NUMEROUS occasions at p/u, but when I point it out she just says I mis-saw it), etc, etc.

Today the big instances where:

Punching w/ fist to the chest of dcb4.75 at circletime when dcb wanted me to listen to him and dbc4.75 was already talking to me.

Hitting dcb4.25 over head w/ crayon container (hard) while coloring- dcb had just showed me his paper and dcb4.25 wanted me to look at his.

Hitting and screaming at new, very timid, dcg4.25 when she saved his cup from falling off the table at lunchtime (acted like he thought she was trying to steal it).

Hit dcb5 over head w/ book when walking past him- no idea why, dcb5 was just sitting nicely reading.

He also threw himself into people, walls, and onto the floor when told he would have to sit by himself away from group (reading or coloring) because he would not keep his hands/feet off whoever was closest. When he got to the other room he threw himself onto the floor narrowly missing a toy barn, looked at the barn, picked himself up and moved closer then threw himself back down hitting the barn w/ his head (totally had to be on purpose).

SO- should i detail out these instances in a cover letter attached to the action plan? Should I just tell her that we cannot have aggression here, no matter what the cause is?

Thanks for any advice!
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Old 07-23-2013, 11:28 AM
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I would document the instances from today in a very factual manner (I think I sent you my suspension letter as well, and on there is a list like what I am talking about ... if not I will send it on over!) on a separate sheet of paper and staple it to the Plan of Action.

For example:
1. Jason was walking past another child and hit the child in their head with a book. There was no conflict between Jason and the other child when this occurred.

2. When another child was speaking during Circle Time, Jason wanted a turn to speak and punched the child with a fist in their chest. There was no conflict between Jason and the other child when this occurred.

3. Jason hit another child over the head with the hard crayon container while coloring. There was no conflict between Jason and the other child when this occurred.


BE SURE TO KEEP A COPY OF THIS IN HIS FILE! Have Mom/Dad sign the incidents from today prior to leaving. "Susan, this paper documenting the incidents from today must be signed. Your copy is attached to the Plan of Action."

If you decided on a certain amount of instances that "bad behavior" will be tolerated before a suspension kicks in, then brace yourself because you'll likely be documenting and suspending tomorrow since you had 5 today. My breaking point was 3, so I documented the biggest examples the very next day and that child was suspended. Since Mom has many excuses this will likely turn out to be very ugly. It did for me and I was accused of being the one who made the child the way he was in the end by Dad (to which I sent back documentation that this had been occurring for 9 months), although Mom just "didn't know what to do anymore."
Cover your bottom to the BEST of your ability and have all of your ducks in a row before giving this letter to them.
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Old 07-23-2013, 11:29 AM
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Also- should I put something in the action plan on what I plan to do to prevent this aggression from occurring? I have tried having him be my shadow but he loves that too much and will hit any child who gets close to me when I have him shadow. The only option I have left (unless ya'll think of something better) is to have him sit/play/work away from the group. I don't like that and I am sure mom wont either, but I don't know what else to do. I don't want her to think we are doing something here to cause him to hit, but we have tried everything to try to stop it! Should I outline what we have done to try to help it in the past?
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Old 07-23-2013, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by EntropyControlSpecialist View Post
I would document the instances from today in a very factual manner (I think I sent you my suspension letter as well, and on there is a list like what I am talking about ... if not I will send it on over!) on a separate sheet of paper and staple it to the Plan of Action.

For example:
1. Jason was walking past another child and hit the child in their head with a book. There was no conflict between Jason and the other child when this occurred.

2. When another child was speaking during Circle Time, Jason wanted a turn to speak and punched the child with a fist in their chest. There was no conflict between Jason and the other child when this occurred.

3. Jason hit another child over the head with the hard crayon container while coloring. There was no conflict between Jason and the other child when this occurred.


BE SURE TO KEEP A COPY OF THIS IN HIS FILE! Have Mom/Dad sign the incidents from today prior to leaving. "Susan, this paper documenting the incidents from today must be signed. Your copy is attached to the Plan of Action."

If you decided on a certain amount of instances that "bad behavior" will be tolerated before a suspension kicks in, then brace yourself because you'll likely be documenting and suspending tomorrow since you had 5 today. My breaking point was 3, so I documented the biggest examples the very next day and that child was suspended.
I was thinking about making it 3 instances of aggression would mean mom would need to p/u for the day (within 45 minutes) and that if there were 3 days that mom had to pick up for this reason it would be a term. My reasoning for that was so that mom would HAVE to face it and deal w/ it.

Do you think that would work?
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Old 07-23-2013, 11:33 AM
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I would not give her any excuses for his violent behaviors. IMHE she will run with it if given the chance. We all like to rationalize our faults, she is human and a Mother Bear (as are most of us )

If he did all that in one day, here, he would be suspended for 2-3 days depending on injuries so parents understand I mean business (also for myself and other parents to cool down). One more occurrence, terminated.

IMHO, One violent kid (in a group setting) can cost you your entire income and reputation. It is not worth the risk.
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Old 07-23-2013, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by JoseyJo View Post
Also- should I put something in the action plan on what I plan to do to prevent this aggression from occurring? I have tried having him be my shadow but he loves that too much and will hit any child who gets close to me when I have him shadow. The only option I have left (unless ya'll think of something better) is to have him sit/play/work away from the group. I don't like that and I am sure mom wont either, but I don't know what else to do. I don't want her to think we are doing something here to cause him to hit, but we have tried everything to try to stop it! Should I outline what we have done to try to help it in the past?
I am not sure if you altered it out, but in the plan of action I have used it discussed discipline and guidance of the child being the responsibility of the parents with the childcare provider supporting THEIR efforts. In my state, we are limited in what we can do. I am required to have parents sign our guidance and discipline policy upon enrolling. If you do the same, or you have your guidance policy in your handbook, make a copy of it and attach that as well.

Make sure you add in the phrasing, "There was no conflict between Jason and the other child when this occurred." after every incident mentioned on today's paper and the next one that you will have to do.

I would not outline what you have done to stop it. The fact of the matter is he is displaying violent behavior and it cannot continue.

Be sure to make a copy of their contract to have within arms reach in the event that they opt to pull him out because you "obviously can't handle him." Hold them to the contract that they signed.
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Old 07-23-2013, 11:37 AM
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I was thinking about making it 3 instances of aggression would mean mom would need to p/u for the day (within 45 minutes) and that if there were 3 days that mom had to pick up for this reason it would be a term. My reasoning for that was so that mom would HAVE to face it and deal w/ it.

Do you think that would work?
You are jeopardizing your business by allowing someone who is assaulting other children to remain in your care. If I was your client and my child was being assaulted by "Jason" I would not be happy. I would consider pulling. That is exactly why I did it 3 strikes PERIOD and you're suspended for 3 days (not just picked up). It just so happened that my own "Jason" had 3 instances in one day.

It says, "After three behavioral issues, the child will be suspended from ----- for 3 days. If the child continues to have any behavioral issues after the suspension, the child care contract will be immediately terminated and the parent will be called to pick up the child within 45 minutes. No refunds will be given. " for good reason. I VALUE my business and income and it needed to GET REAL for the parent.
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Old 07-23-2013, 11:41 AM
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She's given you the out you need. She's gifted you with "he doesn't ever do it anywhere else".

That's what you need when discussing this with her. You don't need a behavior plan and you don't need mom to agree that anything is wrong with him.

What you need to discuss is that it is only in your care that he behaves this way and he deserves to be cared for by parents, family, or other providers where he behaves as mom describes. He deserves to be happy. He deserves to be somewhere where the other children aren't triggering his outbursts.

She's offered this to you... TAKE IT. He has excellent behavior everywhere else. He needs to be where his excellent behavior is his normal behavior.

Providers get way too wrapped up in the parent acknowledging the kids behavior. Her acknowledgement won't make you any money. It doesn't matter whether she agrees with it or not. It's just her opinion and her opinion doesn't make you money. She can walk out the door with her opinion.

There is NOTHING you are going to do to change his behavior. There's nothing the Mom can do WITH you to change it. He needs to be in an environment where there are the adults around who are trained to deal with his violence and are able to legally physically restrain him. That means training and a special place.

Boot him out. He is NOT a special needs child so you have zero obligation to provide any plans or extra services for him. His Mom is saying he's perfectly normal at home and everywhere else so he can't have a behavioral disability. Believe THAT.
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Old 07-23-2013, 11:49 AM
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Thank you for the backbone shoring up guys! Thankfully there have not been any lasting injuries from this dcb (red marks, but that is it so far) but I think that is luck and his strength level more than a sign of his aggression level.

I do agree that the more words I give her the more excuses she gives me- I just don't want her pulling and badmouthing me I guess. I am afraid it makes it look like I am not capable of controlling the children in my care.
I totally agree though that I will loose other children and my reputation if he continues to be aggressive.

I did not alter the agreement other than adding his name and the reasons for the plan. I really love the plan - thank you so much!

I think I will put in 3 instances then suspension, I am sure she will pull if he is suspended and I really do hate to see him go, but I have to do what is best for the group and honestly if we are doing something "wrong" here that is causing that kind of aggression we must not be the right fit for that particular child!
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Old 07-23-2013, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by nannyde View Post
She's given you the out you need. She's gifted you with "he doesn't ever do it anywhere else".

That's what you need when discussing this with her. You don't need a behavior plan and you don't need mom to agree that anything is wrong with him.

What you need to discuss is that it is only in your care that he behaves this way and he deserves to be cared for by parents, family, or other providers where he behaves as mom describes. He deserves to be happy. He deserves to be somewhere where the other children aren't triggering his outbursts.

She's offered this to you... TAKE IT. He has excellent behavior everywhere else. He needs to be where his excellent behavior is his normal behavior.

Providers get way too wrapped up in the parent acknowledging the kids behavior. Her acknowledgement won't make you any money. It doesn't matter whether she agrees with it or not. It's just her opinion and her opinion doesn't make you money. She can walk out the door with her opinion.

There is NOTHING you are going to do to change his behavior. There's nothing the Mom can do WITH you to change it. He needs to be in an environment where there are the adults around who are trained to deal with his violence and are able to legally physically restrain him. That means training and a special place.

Boot him out. He is NOT a special needs child so you have zero obligation to provide any plans or extra services for him. His Mom is saying he's perfectly normal at home and everywhere else so he can't have a behavioral disability. Believe THAT.
So what should I do? If I can't get the behavior to change then he cannot be here. How would I go about broaching this w/ dcm? Do I just give her a term notice? do I detail the instances of his aggression today and give it w/ a notice? do i give 2 weeks or not? (I don't care about the money, seriously, I care much more about enjoying my job and helping to raise happy, healthy, well adjusted kids)
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Old 07-23-2013, 11:54 AM
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Thank you for the backbone shoring up guys! Thankfully there have not been any lasting injuries from this dcb (red marks, but that is it so far) but I think that is luck and his strength level more than a sign of his aggression level.

I do agree that the more words I give her the more excuses she gives me- I just don't want her pulling and badmouthing me I guess. I am afraid it makes it look like I am not capable of controlling the children in my care.
I totally agree though that I will loose other children and my reputation if he continues to be aggressive.

I did not alter the agreement other than adding his name and the reasons for the plan. I really love the plan - thank you so much!

I think I will put in 3 instances then suspension, I am sure she will pull if he is suspended and I really do hate to see him go, but I have to do what is best for the group and honestly if we are doing something "wrong" here that is causing that kind of aggression we must not be the right fit for that particular child!
Mine pulled and were straight up crazy about it. But, the headache was gone for both the other children AND my pregnant self and I was happy.

I haven't been badmouthed by the family. People that KNOW the person will KNOW why you "couldn't control" that child. C'mon, how long did it really take for you to see how out of control WildChild is?

Violence is one quality that you should never have to "control." Either they respond to disciplinary efforts to curb any and all violence or they don't and they have to exit your program. It's for your safety and the safety of the other children in care (whether they were big instances or not doesn't matter ... it's bullying behavior and assaulting others is never okay).
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Old 07-23-2013, 11:59 AM
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Mine pulled and were straight up crazy about it. But, the headache was gone for both the other children AND my pregnant self and I was happy.

I haven't been badmouthed by the family. People that KNOW the person will KNOW why you "couldn't control" that child. C'mon, how long did it really take for you to see how out of control WildChild is?

Violence is one quality that you should never have to "control." Either they respond to disciplinary efforts to curb any and all violence or they don't and they have to exit your program. It's for your safety and the safety of the other children in care (whether they were big instances or not doesn't matter ... it's bullying behavior and assaulting others is never okay).
Unfortunately for me this specific child is really a very very sweet well mannered child when something isn't "off" (tired, getting sick, change in routine, etc). He was HORRIBLE the first month here, but not hitting, just pitching fits. I gave him that as an adjustment period. Since then he has fits that are progressively more aggressive over time when getting sick (mom WILL NOT admit he is EVER sick, it is always "allergies"), or when tired. Two weeks ago we started a new child and he has been "off" since then and very aggressive. - Maybe jelous, maybe wanting more attention, I don't really know why, but really it doesn't matter if I can't get it to stop!
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Old 07-23-2013, 12:03 PM
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Unfortunately for me this specific child is really a very very sweet well mannered child when something isn't "off" (tired, getting sick, change in routine, etc). He was HORRIBLE the first month here, but not hitting, just pitching fits. I gave him that as an adjustment period. Since then he has fits that are progressively more aggressive over time when getting sick (mom WILL NOT admit he is EVER sick, it is always "allergies"), or when tired. Two weeks ago we started a new child and he has been "off" since then and very aggressive.
I also recently termed a family that had chronically sick children that were supposedly never sick. Too much watermelon, too much granola, allergies, we went to the park and that's why there's a 103/104 fever, etc. I just gave them a termination paper with "Failure to abide by policies" checked off after 15 months or so of being here. They were irate because, again, their child was not sick. They had until the end of the period they paid for to attend, but choose not to because they no longer "felt comfortable" which was fine. They choose not to return, and I didn't forfeit any money (although they did demand it to which I quoted them 6 different places that stated no refunds will be given and they were still welcome to attend).

In your case, I might just give her a term notice for aggressive behavior and say something along the lines of what Nan said. There's too much going against her and you need to get out of that situation ASAP. Things won't change.
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Old 07-23-2013, 12:16 PM
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She's given you the out you need. She's gifted you with "he doesn't ever do it anywhere else".

That's what you need when discussing this with her. You don't need a behavior plan and you don't need mom to agree that anything is wrong with him.

What you need to discuss is that it is only in your care that he behaves this way and he deserves to be cared for by parents, family, or other providers where he behaves as mom describes. He deserves to be happy. He deserves to be somewhere where the other children aren't triggering his outbursts.

She's offered this to you... TAKE IT. He has excellent behavior everywhere else. He needs to be where his excellent behavior is his normal behavior.

Providers get way too wrapped up in the parent acknowledging the kids behavior. Her acknowledgement won't make you any money. It doesn't matter whether she agrees with it or not. It's just her opinion and her opinion doesn't make you money. She can walk out the door with her opinion.

There is NOTHING you are going to do to change his behavior. There's nothing the Mom can do WITH you to change it. He needs to be in an environment where there are the adults around who are trained to deal with his violence and are able to legally physically restrain him. That means training and a special place.

Boot him out. He is NOT a special needs child so you have zero obligation to provide any plans or extra services for him. His Mom is saying he's perfectly normal at home and everywhere else so he can't have a behavioral disability. Believe THAT.
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Originally Posted by JoseyJo View Post
So what should I do? If I can't get the behavior to change then he cannot be here. How would I go about broaching this w/ dcm? Do I just give her a term notice? do I detail the instances of his aggression today and give it w/ a notice? do i give 2 weeks or not? (I don't care about the money, seriously, I care much more about enjoying my job and helping to raise happy, healthy, well adjusted kids)
I did exactly this with one of my DCK's! Mom was in denial about some problems, I brought them up often and kept getting brushed off but I was getting to the point where keeping the DCG was no longer something I was willing to do. Mom said she's only like this here, I said well then please consider this your 2 weeks notice. I am not comfortable keeping her in my care if she is not thriving here. Mom stammered, changed her tune and tried to stay, I stood my ground and termed. It was better for all the other DCK's and one of my DCM's even said she was very happy I was able to do that. I am SURE she would have pulled her WONDERFUL child from my care. Termed DCG is now in a developmental preschool getting the help she very much needed.

I know you say how sweet he can but but honestly the number of incidents you say he has in one day...you are risking all of your other kids. I would term.
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Old 07-23-2013, 12:29 PM
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I know you say how sweet he can but but honestly the number of incidents you say he has in one day...you are risking all of your other kids. I would term.
I know, I know, but it is so HARD to do! I have only termed 2 other children the whole time I have been doing daycare- both were clearly miserable here. One 18 mo "catnapper" who was always tired and woke up at puff of wind or a shadow (literally!), and one 3 yo who screamed pretty much non stop anytime we did any learning activity at all. They were much easier as the children were clearly miserable.

How would you guys go about giving the term? Would you just give a term notice today at p/u? What would you say when you gave it?
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Old 07-23-2013, 12:35 PM
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I know, I know, but it is so HARD to do! I have only termed 2 other children the whole time I have been doing daycare- both were clearly miserable here. One 18 mo "catnapper" who was always tired and woke up at puff of wind or a shadow (literally!), and one 3 yo who screamed pretty much non stop anytime we did any learning activity at all. They were much easier as the children were clearly miserable.

How would you guys go about giving the term? Would you just give a term notice today at p/u? What would you say when you gave it?
Dear DCP's

Please accept this as written notice of termination of our agreement for child care services.

The last day I am willing to provide care is Friday, July XX, 2013.

Based on our previous conversations about behavior both here and at home, I feel I am unable to meet Billy's needs and feel that our environment is simply not a good fit.

Thank you

Provider.


Sometimes I give detailed reasons and other times I don't. In this case, I think you would be doing yourself a favor by not getting into the reasons as the mom seems to be the type to argue everything and she herself, stated that he only behaves this way at your home so....since SHE said it, use it.

Personally, I'd be willing to waive any notice period you have simply because the child is a risk while present. I'd take the loss and just be done.

I know terming is hard because you care about each and every kid but don't ever let ONE child's needs be more important than the groups needs as a whole....or more important than yours.
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Old 07-23-2013, 01:11 PM
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Dear DCP's

Please accept this as written notice of termination of our agreement for child care services.

The last day I am willing to provide care is Friday, July XX, 2013.

Based on our previous conversations about behavior both here and at home, I feel I am unable to meet Billy's needs and feel that our environment is simply not a good fit.

Thank you

Provider.


Sometimes I give detailed reasons and other times I don't. In this case, I think you would be doing yourself a favor by not getting into the reasons as the mom seems to be the type to argue everything and she herself, stated that he only behaves this way at your home so....since SHE said it, use it.

Personally, I'd be willing to waive any notice period you have simply because the child is a risk while present. I'd take the loss and just be done.

I know terming is hard because you care about each and every kid but don't ever let ONE child's needs be more important than the groups needs as a whole....or more important than yours.
I would use this and I would also waive the notice period. I'd make this Friday, or even today, be his last day in care.
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Old 07-23-2013, 02:31 PM
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I know, I know, but it is so HARD to do! I have only termed 2 other children the whole time I have been doing daycare- both were clearly miserable here. One 18 mo "catnapper" who was always tired and woke up at puff of wind or a shadow (literally!), and one 3 yo who screamed pretty much non stop anytime we did any learning activity at all. They were much easier as the children were clearly miserable.

How would you guys go about giving the term? Would you just give a term notice today at p/u? What would you say when you gave it?
Trust me I totally get it! I have termed very few kids and with very good reasons but even so...I get really worked up before hand, stomach in knots. Once I did it I had a HUGE rush of relief. It was such a good feeling, the nerves and knots were nothing compared the peaceful atmosphere that comes next
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Old 07-23-2013, 02:43 PM
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Trust me I totally get it! I have termed very few kids and with very good reasons but even so...I get really worked up before hand, stomach in knots. Once I did it I had a HUGE rush of relief. It was such a good feeling, the nerves and knots were nothing compared the peaceful atmosphere that comes next
If I could just get my hubby (my partner in our group daycare) on board! He hates to term even more than me
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Old 07-23-2013, 02:56 PM
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If I could just get my hubby (my partner in our group daycare) on board! He hates to term even more than me
Just put it in perspective. Would you rather term or BE termed? kwim?

Sometimes doing the right thing is the hardest thing.
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Old 07-23-2013, 03:05 PM
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Just put it in perspective. Would you rather term or BE termed? kwim?

Sometimes doing the right thing is the hardest thing.
That's always what I think about. Either you terminate this one child or several families may terminate you.
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Old 07-23-2013, 05:04 PM
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My wildchild with a behavioral intervention plan is NOT violent, but kids are 'unintentionally' being hurt (his impulse control leads to poor choices and sometimes, that results in others being injured) like today he went on the swing with a child RIGHT in front of it and almost knocked the other child over, but I was able to stop him. He was swinging the rake back/forth fast without looking to see who he could hit, that sort of thing. CONSTANT supervision.

If he was aggressive on top of it? Adios!

I immediately termed one kid this year, and it was for aggressive behavior. Any violence toward another child that I cannot control and stop, 100% of the time needs to go. In my case the child was choking, pulling hair HARD, pinching, as soon as my attention was diverted from her.
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Old 07-23-2013, 05:14 PM
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To make my hubby happy I wrote up a "behavioral notification" detailing the specifics of his behavior and gave it to her today. ( she of course said he never acts like that w/ her even though he threw a car at the wall and his shoes at her during p/u)

Tomorrow my hubby and I will do our best to keep him from hitting/pushing/kicking the other children. If we are able to keep everyone else from getting hit we will give him more time to work on appropriate behavior (not stomping and fit throwing, throwing himself on ground, throwing things when he doesn't get to do what he wants). If we cannot keep others from being hurt by him we are going to term due to "aggression toward other children and staff" and "inability to meet child’s needs without additional staff" with an effective date of this Friday- as long as no child is injured by him between now and then. If so it will be an immediate term.
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Old 07-23-2013, 05:24 PM
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To make my hubby happy I wrote up a "behavioral notification" detailing the specifics of his behavior and gave it to her today. ( she of course said he never acts like that w/ her even though he threw a car at the wall and his shoes at her during p/u)

Tomorrow my hubby and I will do our best to keep him from hitting/pushing/kicking the other children. If we are able to keep everyone else from getting hit we will give him more time to work on appropriate behavior (not stomping and fit throwing, throwing himself on ground, throwing things when he doesn't get to do what he wants). If we cannot keep others from being hurt by him we are going to term due to "aggression toward other children and staff" and "inability to meet child’s needs without additional staff" with an effective date of this Friday- as long as no child is injured by him between now and then. If so it will be an immediate term.
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Old 07-23-2013, 06:00 PM
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I am just curious, when the mom says he does not do that when he is with me....what do you say??
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Old 07-23-2013, 07:50 PM
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To make my hubby happy I wrote up a "behavioral notification" detailing the specifics of his behavior and gave it to her today. ( she of course said he never acts like that w/ her even though he threw a car at the wall and his shoes at her during p/u)

Tomorrow my hubby and I will do our best to keep him from hitting/pushing/kicking the other children. If we are able to keep everyone else from getting hit we will give him more time to work on appropriate behavior (not stomping and fit throwing, throwing himself on ground, thing things when he doesn't get to do what he wants). If we cannot keep others from being hurt by him we are going to term due to "aggression toward other children and staff" and "inability to meet child’s needs win csrd ithout additional staff" with an effective date of this Friday- as long as no child is injured by him between now and then. If so it will be an immediate term.
This all sounds like a lot of work for you and your hubby not to mention the stressful environment hat the other children in care are being exposed to . Sad he needs to be termed the mom needs this as a wake up call shes using you by pretending to be unaware of his problem. The game is over.
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Old 07-23-2013, 08:09 PM
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Trust me I totally get it! I have termed very few kids and with very good reasons but even so...I get really worked up before hand, stomach in knots. Once I did it I had a HUGE rush of relief. It was such a good feeling, the nerves and knots were nothing compared the peaceful atmosphere that comes next
This is my experience as well! I love the previous advice!! If she verbally questions you after you term answer: really a light bulb went off for me when I was talking to you. You said he doesn't show this behavior elsewhere which leads me to believe this isn't the best environment for him.
Use her words!!
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Old 07-23-2013, 08:11 PM
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I am just curious, when the mom says he does not do that when he is with me....what do you say??
Say- that is exactly why I don't think this is a good fit for him. I have tried everything I know to do and I am not seeing improvements. It is most important he be where he can thrive. Based on his behavior only occurring here I feel for some reason this isn't it. We both want what's best for your son!
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Old 07-23-2013, 08:16 PM
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This is my experience as well! I love the previous advice!! If she verbally questions you after you term answer: really a light bulb went off for me when I was talking to you. You said he doesn't show this behavior elsewhere which leads me to believe this isn't the best environment for him.
Use her words!!
YES this is exactly it.....he needs an environment where he can thrive....not saying that you don't have a good environment, but it obviously does not work for him. Perhaps for this child it is too over stimulating or something like this, but really, don't focus on how you can fix the environment, fix on changing the only child in it that it does not fit. You can't change the entire environment of your daycare for one child.....If you do that and it works for him, it could stop working for the others...

I had a child that was way too over stimulated here, he would not play with us at all, cry off and on and I had to let him go. I don't want someone here that is unhappy in anyway. if it's violent or not.....
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Old 07-24-2013, 08:43 AM
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Update! First thing this morning dcb gets mad because he cannot go in pop up tent (so mad at me because I said he could not be anywhere I cant see him today since he was hitting so much yesterday) and throws his cars in the face of another dcb nearby.

So sit him in TO and when his time is over I tell him he can color or draw at table, but he cannot be in the playrooms since he is hitting again. He throws a fit and refuses to leave TO area (so say that if fine, if you change your mind you can go and color or draw).

I already have a call into licensing and she calls about 10 minutes into him staying in TO area. I explain situation to her and ask what I am allowed to do w/i our regulations (such as can I exclude him from group, etc) and explain everything I have already tried. She says that at this point my responsibility is to keep the other children safe, so if that means excluding him from group I need to do that as much as necessary. (She also said we have one of the best programs in the area and if keeping him from hurting the other children interferes with that I should term as it is best for the other children).

I have taken his shoes and kept him an arms length from the other children all morning. It is exhausting! I have attempted to keep our preschool program the same but there really isn't any way to do that while making absolutely sure he cannot be close enough to a child to hurt them. So hubby and I agreed we are giving a term notice effective today. I'll update and say how it goes!
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Old 07-24-2013, 08:52 AM
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Update! First thing this morning dcb gets mad because he cannot go in pop up tent (so mad at me because I said he could not be anywhere I cant see him today since he was hitting so much yesterday) and throws his cars in the face of another dcb nearby.

So sit him in TO and when his time is over I tell him he can color or draw at table, but he cannot be in the playrooms since he is hitting again. He throws a fit and refuses to leave TO area (so say that if fine, if you change your mind you can go and color or draw).

I already have a call into licensing and she calls about 10 minutes into him staying in TO area. I explain situation to her and ask what I am allowed to do w/i our regulations (such as can I exclude him from group, etc) and explain everything I have already tried. She says that at this point my responsibility is to keep the other children safe, so if that means excluding him from group I need to do that as much as necessary. (She also said we have one of the best programs in the area and if keeping him from hurting the other children interferes with that I should term as it is best for the other children).

I have taken his shoes and kept him an arms length from the other children all morning. It is exhausting! I have attempted to keep our preschool program the same but there really isn't any way to do that while making absolutely sure he cannot be close enough to a child to hurt them. So hubby and I agreed we are giving a term notice effective today. I'll update and say how it goes!
I think you are doing the right thing. This child is way too much work for you to manage WHILE caring for others. It is neither fair to you, the others, or the child himself. He needs something you are physically, mentally and emotionally unable to give him. One on one care.

Do NOT feel bad. Your job is to make sure the other kids are safe and happy and if that means removing ONE child, then so be it.

Please keep us updated....DCM sounds like she may be one to give you some major flack for this. Maybe have your DH present when the termination happens so that there is more than one adult present...just in care.
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Old 07-24-2013, 11:55 AM
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She texted at nap time and asked how his day has been. I texted back that I would send an email and just sent an email explaining that services are termed effective today and that I would refund the rest of the week's tuition. Man, I have a huge headache now but hopefully it will be over soon!
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Old 07-24-2013, 12:19 PM
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She texted at nap time and asked how his day has been. I texted back that I would send an email and just sent an email explaining that services are termed effective today and that I would refund the rest of the week's tuition. Man, I have a huge headache now but hopefully it will be over soon!
Please do as BlackCat suggested and have your husband present. Terms that come about in this way are never received well and parents tend to tone it down (even if it is only slightly) when it isn't just YOU who is present.
Pack up all of his belongings, write a check and place it in an envelope, and have it all ready to go for when she comes. She might come early to get him because she won't "be comfortable" that you can't handle him. That is always the line used...

You did your best and I commend you for that! Your day will be so much less stressful tomorrow.
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Old 07-24-2013, 12:36 PM
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She called our land line phone about 5 minutes after I sent the email. In my email I had mentioned that other parents have been seeing the aggression at p/u and d/o and also that I had spoke to licensing today to make sure there was nothing further we should/could try to address the issues.

When she called her first words were "so did you call licensing or did they call you" I told her I called them, and why. She said "so is there a record for him that will follow him from place to place?" I told her I didn't give them any names, just asked questions. Then she asks "so how many parents have seen this and complained?" I told her most of them at one time or another have seen something that they have had concerns about w/ dcb's behaviors at their p/u and d/os. She asked other questions of that ilk then said she couldn't take off work so would be here at the regular time.

Hopefully it will go smoothly at p/u. It seems like she is just worried that somehow her next provider will be told/find out about his behaviors. Both of us will be up front during her p/u though, just in case!
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Old 07-24-2013, 12:50 PM
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PLEASE dont get into any other conversation with this mom. you have told her more than enough and IMO, way more than I would have shared. I would just continue saying that your program is not the right fit for him and you dont feel further discussion is needed. rinse and repeat and get her out of that door! have the other kids ready as well so if another parent shows up, their kid can be handed over quickly and other parents not witness this term. end it and do not respond to any other contact after pickup!
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Old 07-24-2013, 12:52 PM
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PLEASE dont get into any other conversation with this mom. you have told her more than enough and IMO, way more than I would have shared. I would just continue saying that your program is not the right fit for him and you dont feel further discussion is needed. rinse and repeat and get her out of that door! have the other kids ready as well so if another parent shows up, their kid can be handed over quickly and other parents not witness this term. end it and do not respond to any other contact after pickup!
Very good advice! I will follow it I am HORRIBLE about talking too much (as I am sure everyone can see by how much I write!)
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Old 07-24-2013, 12:54 PM
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She called our land line phone about 5 minutes after I sent the email. In my email I had mentioned that other parents have been seeing the aggression at p/u and d/o and also that I had spoke to licensing today to make sure there was nothing further we should/could try to address the issues.

When she called her first words were "so did you call licensing or did they call you" I told her I called them, and why. She said "so is there a record for him that will follow him from place to place?" I told her I didn't give them any names, just asked questions. Then she asks "so how many parents have seen this and complained?" I told her most of them at one time or another have seen something that they have had concerns about w/ dcb's behaviors at their p/u and d/os. She asked other questions of that ilk then said she couldn't take off work so would be here at the regular time.

Hopefully it will go smoothly at p/u. It seems like she is just worried that somehow her next provider will be told/find out about his behaviors. Both of us will be up front during her p/u though, just in case!
Sounds like she already called on you. Why would they call you out of the blue?

She's worried another provider will find out about his bad behavior? Umm that will happen during the interview.

Absolutely clueless. She will be buying a vowel here in a couple weeks when it happens again.

I wouldn't have brought up the other parents. That gives her something to focus on and discuss with you. It just adds a layer that won't make the term easier. You don't need witnesses to make your point.

Keep it about HIM and what HE does not what others see, think, feel etc. That will shorten up the conferencing you will do to get them out the door.
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Old 07-24-2013, 01:15 PM
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Sounds like she already called on you. Why would they call you out of the blue?

She's worried another provider will find out about his bad behavior? Umm that will happen during the interview.

Absolutely clueless. She will be buying a vowel here in a couple weeks when it happens again.

I wouldn't have brought up the other parents. That gives her something to focus on and discuss with you. It just adds a layer that won't make the term easier. You don't need witnesses to make your point.

Keep it about HIM and what HE does not what others see, think, feel etc. That will shorten up the conferencing you will do to get them out the door.
I don't think she already called licensing- she specifically wanted to know if someone had called on him (as in a parent who saw her son being aggressive) or if I called "on him".

She is completely unwilling to take any time off work and MUST find a daycare for him right away.

She specifically asked if there is a "file" out there is the "daycare system" that will follow her child around from daycare to daycare. I think she is hoping to pick a daycare that does not check w/ the last provider or convince them not to check. I must admit I didn't check- she told me she was changing because her last provider took off way too many sick days and was unreliable. I believed her, and believed that he was a well adjusted child as he truly seemed to be during the interview. And he is - as long as you don't tell him something he doesn't want to hear. She is VERY careful not to tell him anything that will set him off during p/u and d/o I now notice now that I understand the situation.

I mentioned the other parents because it is true, and because it gives me a way (with my not very strong backbone I must admit!) to say "no way, I cannot give it more time."

I will not get into a conversation w/ her about it during p/u though. If she says anything at all I will tell her it would be better to call after hours so we can discuss it.
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Old 07-24-2013, 03:24 PM
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I hope pick-up goes well!
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Old 07-24-2013, 03:56 PM
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Mom came right on time to p/u. She had tears in her eyes, apologized for how dcb has been acting here - signed term notice. Apologized again for any child who was hurt by him, said how much she loved it here and hopes she can call us at a later date when/if she figures out why he is acting this way right now, although she is not sure how since he doesn't act that way when she is around. Asked for our tax id for taxes, took his paperwork and belongings and left.

I felt relieved after the other 2 terms I have had to do. But after this one I just couldn't get it together and had to have hubby watch the dcks and go upstairs and cry! Maybe she really doesn't know what to do and is so scared that there is something wrong w/ him that she really can't see his behavior.
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Old 07-24-2013, 05:01 PM
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Mom came right on time to p/u. She had tears in her eyes, apologized for how dcb has been acting here - signed term notice. Apologized again for any child who was hurt by him, said how much she loved it here and hopes she can call us at a later date when/if she figures out why he is acting this way right now, although she is not sure how since he doesn't act that way when she is around. Asked for our tax id for taxes, took his paperwork and belongings and left.

I felt relieved after the other 2 terms I have had to do. But after this one I just couldn't get it together and had to have hubby watch the dcks and go upstairs and cry! Maybe she really doesn't know what to do and is so scared that there is something wrong w/ him that she really can't see his behavior.
Naw she is lying. You know she knows how he behaves because you are with her when she sees it.

She wants a deal where he gets to act like that and she pays money for the person to host it. She's just confused because she thought she had that in place. Now she has to search for someone who will allow it. She has to find someone or somewhere where she can say words about it and then not have to do anything else.

She doesn't have a problem with the way he acts or how other people feel about it. She has a problem with other people saying no to it.

It's way simpler than you think.
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Old 07-24-2013, 05:19 PM
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Naw she is lying. You know she knows how he behaves because you are with her when she sees it.

She wants a deal where he gets to act like that and she pays money for the person to host it. She's just confused because she thought she had that in place. Now she has to search for someone who will allow it. She has to find someone or somewhere where she can say words about it and then not have to do anything else.

She doesn't have a problem with the way he acts or how other people feel about it. She has a problem with other people saying no to it.

It's way simpler than you think.
Completely agree!
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Old 07-24-2013, 05:26 PM
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Mom came right on time to p/u. She had tears in her eyes, apologized for how dcb has been acting here - signed term notice. Apologized again for any child who was hurt by him, said how much she loved it here and hopes she can call us at a later date when/if she figures out why he is acting this way right now, although she is not sure how since he doesn't act that way when she is around. Asked for our tax id for taxes, took his paperwork and belongings and left.

I felt relieved after the other 2 terms I have had to do. But after this one I just couldn't get it together and had to have hubby watch the dcks and go upstairs and cry! Maybe she really doesn't know what to do and is so scared that there is something wrong w/ him that she really can't see his behavior.
Saying words: can you imagine telling the mom of the little kid that got punched in the chest that the kid that did it was just having problems with his allergies?

Think about the reasons she gives and then think about laying them on the victims Mom.

Redoinkulous
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Old 07-24-2013, 05:43 PM
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Saying words: can you imagine telling the mom of the little kid that got punched in the chest that the kid that did it was just having problems with his allergies?

Think about the reasons she gives and then think about laying them on the victims Mom.

Redoinkulous
Amen.

One of three reasons given to me for my DCB that was suspended immediately and then termed right after was addition/subtraction of other children. It was also called "typical 5-year-old behavior."
"I'm sorry, Sue, that John was punched by Jason. We recently added a new child to our group so Jason punched John. It's totally normal for a 5-year-old to do." Months from now you will look back on this and actually laugh. Time gives you a fresh new perspective on people like this.
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Old 07-24-2013, 06:22 PM
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from her questions, I think she is lying too. Those tears are just drama from not getting her way and having to finally deal with the problem. please dont waste anymore time thinking about this.
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Old 07-24-2013, 06:43 PM
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Well, I am not a game player so I never get it when people play games. I am too honest about stuff that I should probably just bite my tongue on! You guys are right- there is no way she doesn't see him acting that way because he has done it to her and in front of her, in front of me many times. Even today and yesterday at pick up he was acting out (threw a car at the wall yesterday hard enough to leave a dent in the wallboard when she told him to put it away so they could go- she tried not to "see" it but I pointed it out and she had to address it). But I don't understand and probably never will understand why she would cry, apologize, say how great we are when it doesn't get her ANYTHING from me. Maybe she just doesn't want me to "add it to his file that goes follows him from daycare to daycare" ??
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Old 07-24-2013, 07:07 PM
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from her questions, I think she is lying too. Those tears are just drama from not getting her way and having to finally deal with the problem. please dont waste anymore time thinking about this.
It's a sad day when you have to come to terms with the realization that there are some parents who like, admire, and want their child to have violent, aggressive, and anti-social behavior. They feel their child is superior to all others and that exacting that superiority is going to result in casualties. It's the JOB of the provider to host it and the other children to endure it.

They are fine with being told about the behavior. They get upset if the child is subjected to any consequences for the behavior. They have extreme reactions to being told the child must leave because of the behavior.

In that cycle, you KNOW that deep down the parent is blessing the bad behavior because the extreme emotion doesn't surface when the parent hears that property, the provider, or the poor other kids in the daycare were harmed. A parent who doesn't want the violence reacts strongly when they find out another kid was harmed... or the provider...or pproperty. They get visually upset and pledge to take action.

When the intense emotion and words of sorry only come when they are told the child is termed then you know for sure they are only upset for how this affects them.

Be beware when, at the first discussion of inappropriate behavior the parent just puts out enough energy and emotion to say words like tired, allergies, you, your environment, or the friends. It means they are ok with what the child has done.

If they disapprove of a punishment so inconsequential as a short time out... you have now been put on official notice they are truly ok with the violence, disrespect, or refusals.

When they cry only when you say no more you can take to the bank that the child had their FULL support all along the way. It's nearly impossible to change this mindset from the doorway of a little home child care. It takes the doorway of a big brick and mortar school and sometimes the clanging of the prison cell doors for them to believe.
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Old 07-24-2013, 07:37 PM
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Well, I am not a game player so I never get it when people play games. I am too honest about stuff that I should probably just bite my tongue on! You guys are right- there is no way she doesn't see him acting that way because he has done it to her and in front of her, in front of me many times. Even today and yesterday at pick up he was acting out (threw a car at the wall yesterday hard enough to leave a dent in the wallboard when she told him to put it away so they could go- she tried not to "see" it but I pointed it out and she had to address it). But I don't understand and probably never will understand why she would cry, apologize, say how great we are when it doesn't get her ANYTHING from me. Maybe she just doesn't want me to "add it to his file that goes follows him from daycare to daycare" ??
see how she was able to sway your thinking with the words NOW? It makes her look like she really has a care about you, your business, and the kids. Where was that in the beginning? That would've put her in a position to have to DO something about him and prove her concern. She waits till the exact moment to SAY it when there's no way she has to SHOW it and DO it.

It was just as easy for her to say allergies and tired as it was to say love your care and sorry for hurting. Both sets of words put her in position where she's assured she doesn't have to deal with him. In the end it makes her feel good to know she is off the hook for his violence. THAT'S where she feels most at home. Deep down she really feels he should be able to behave any way he wants and he should always be happy and on top. If saying excuses buys him that and she gets to keep bringing him to the world he gets to rule then the words are worth the miniscule amount of the effort she expends to say it. If she can make her self look like a caring person by saying words right before she is guaranteed she doesn't have to actually do caring behavior then she can walk away feeling she was a caring mom. No matter that it was only for a couple seconds.

I would rather have a parent come out from the go and say "my kid is king and your job is to serve him. I don't care if he tears your house up and hurts the other kids. I am okay with him disrespecting you and don't expect him to respect anyone or your rules. If you are going to get my money then you have to agree and promise to do whatever it takes for him to be himself and do as he wishes. Also don't want to be bothered by what you think he should or shouldn't be doing. It's not up to you. I pay you to keep your opinion to yourself"

Now that would be some truth I could respect. Sadly a bunch of stuff and stress has to happen before she says all that in action and then tries to undo it with fake lies.
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Old 07-24-2013, 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by nannyde View Post
If she can make her self look like a caring person by saying words right before she is guaranteed she doesn't have to actually do caring behavior then she can walk away feeling she was a caring mom. No matter that it was only for a couple seconds.
This makes total sense with the other behaviors we have seen from this dcm. Thank you guys for all of your insight!
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Old 07-25-2013, 10:12 AM
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This is my experience as well! I love the previous advice!! If she verbally questions you after you term answer: really a light bulb went off for me when I was talking to you. You said he doesn't show this behavior elsewhere which leads me to believe this isn't the best environment for him.
Use her words!!
This is a great out and I wouldn't hesitate in doing an immediate term! I had a parent of a violent child who turned it around on me over and over again and I tried for 6 months to make it work, being hit, kicked, bitten and then they started with the other kids. When I finally termed they still made it out to be no big deal. I wish I would have termed sooner and had back bone enough to turn it right back around on them because the child had behavior issues all.the.time.
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Old 07-25-2013, 12:17 PM
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One of my long time dc parents (who has a dcb4.25 here now and an dcg18mo starting in Nov)came in this morning, looked around and said "dcb isn't here today??" I said no. She said "is he coming back??" I said "no, he's not". She has a look of relief and said "I hate to say it but I am glad, i didnt say anything before but (her son) swears that the deep-ish mark on his back last week was from dcb. " She goes on to say he told her he never told me about it and she figured he was mistaken about what happened, but now that she has seen more of dcb's behaviors at p/u she thinks he probably did do it.

I knew my other dc parent's were worried about things they had seen at p/u and d/o and I don't blame them. I am still sad that it had to happen (we have mostly long-term dcks and in the past 4 years have only had 2 leave for anything other than moving away/moving up to K) but I am happy that our day today was SO much calmer!
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Old 07-25-2013, 12:46 PM
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glad the whole thing is finally over. like nan said, the exiting emotions and apologies are just her way to soothe herself and make her feel better like "well I tried to work it out, I apologized and said sorry" and that is not someone you want to work with. It is just words, never action to back it up. the other possibility is that she may have hoped you would back down on terming and she could squeeze some more child care out of you. finding a new daycare is a pain and the older he gets, the harder it will be to hide his bad behavior from future providers. you can bet she will not be honest in warning future providers that he needs a lot of supervision and direct care. sadly, this kid will probably go thru another half dozen providers before school age, maybe more.
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Old 07-29-2013, 12:42 PM
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I just want to say a HUGE thank you to everyone who gave advice and support on this issue- it took a few days for everything to calm down here after the stress last week but I must say today was the BEST day I have had in the daycare in a long time!

All of the kids got along, we didn't have any hitting, arguing, temper tantrums. We got so much more learning in than we have been, we had time for twice as many activities as I had planned- plus tons of spontaneous play and learning

Again, thank you so much guys! This forum has been a life saver for my sanity
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Old 07-29-2013, 12:51 PM
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Old 07-29-2013, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by JoseyJo View Post
I just want to say a HUGE thank you to everyone who gave advice and support on this issue- it took a few days for everything to calm down here after the stress last week but I must say today was the BEST day I have had in the daycare in a long time!

All of the kids got along, we didn't have any hitting, arguing, temper tantrums. We got so much more learning in than we have been, we had time for twice as many activities as I had planned- plus tons of spontaneous play and learning

Again, thank you so much guys! This forum has been a life saver for my sanity
Yay!!!
So glad your feeling better!! I always have to remind myself in situations like that I didn't birth them and they aren't my ultimate responsibility. You giving those other kids having a safe fun learning environment is
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Old 07-29-2013, 02:29 PM
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I am so happy to hear that you are able to have your daycare back. Sometimes we need to live and learn......But it is what we have to do to make ourselves better right....

now you know that the next time should you ever encounter a similar situation how to deal with it right away and not put yourself through so much......


good job!!!
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Old 07-29-2013, 03:46 PM
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So happy for you!
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