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  #1  
Old 04-04-2012, 03:20 AM
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Default Washing Machine Tragedy

http://shine.yahoo.com/parenting/tod...202400944.html
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Old 04-04-2012, 03:55 AM
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What a tragic story. Freak accident, this is what we would call it here. The man did say that the lid was left up like she always does. I would have to say the washer safety was not working correctly, as my washer will not go thru the complete cycle unless the lid is down. I will always say that daycare providers watch children much closer than their own parents in many instances.
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Old 04-04-2012, 04:20 AM
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I agree that it must of been broken because I thought that was a saftey thing all machines have that the lid must be down for it to work. so sad.
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Old 04-04-2012, 04:28 AM
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My washer is 25 years old and can run with the lid up except for the spin cycle.
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Old 04-04-2012, 04:36 AM
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How horrible. The older machines will run with the lid open - remember when you had to add the fabric softener during the rinse cycle?

Now the machines have that safety feature where it won't run unles the lid is closed and mine even latches for extra safety.
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Old 04-04-2012, 04:55 AM
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My old top load machine would fill with water and aggitate the clothes but would not spin if the top was up. So a child could totally drown in it. That is such an awful, scary story. I feel so bad for the poor mother!

When my kids were little, I would have thought nothing of starting the machine going and then remember I had other things to go into the machine and run upstairs to get them with the machine still open and filling. It is just not something that I would have thought about as a drowning hazard. With the daycare, it would not have been able to happen....even if I got to throw a load in, my dog is gated in the laundry room away from the kids, but with the machine and, to even get to do it, the clothes would already have to be in there. Plus, I have a front loader now and it locks when I turn it on so it is fully loaded before filling.

My heart goes out to this poor mother.
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Old 04-04-2012, 06:00 AM
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Mine just has to be shut on the spin cycle. I got it used 18 years ago from one of my dc moms and it's lived with only one minor repair. I do about three loads a day so it's been a good machine. (not to jinx it now and have it blow up). When it did have problems it was within two days of my dishwasher and my fridge breakdown so I had the fortune of three repairs in a couple of days.

One thing I think of in this story is what the legal consequence to her will be for the lack of supervision. My guess is it will be zero.

If this would have happened with the same aged child, with the same machine, at the same time in a child care provider home the consequences would be HUGE. The provider would have been liable criminally for lack of supervision.

This is the kind of thing I'm speaking of when I say that the care of other peoples children is nothing like the care of your own. This parent was allowed to leave her really young toddler unsupervised for a pretty good amount of time and have access to water and have the worst possible scenario happen. I'll bet you the "legal" consequence to her will be nothing.

Now there may be more to the story but if this ends in just a "freak" accident where she SHOULD have been supervising the child but did not KNOW the risks of water access... the case will most likely close quickly.

Parents are allowed to make critical and fatal mistakes with their children because they are their children and they have the most to loose if death happens. We aren't allowed to allow a one year old baby to run the house and climb without having an adult doing direct supervision. He had to have shown her his climbing ability LONG before this happened to be that skilled of a climber.

So when you have a child who wants out of the supervised area to run the house remember this story. When you have one hanging on the gate because what's on the other side of the gate is a better gig than what is within the gated area.... It's okay for us to limit "run the house" and "climb the ___" because we can't take the risk that something like this will happen. Parents can. We can't.
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Old 04-04-2012, 06:02 AM
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hmm, I don't know, its a sad thing that it happened, but I will guarentee you that she was gone for awhile. Sorry, I'm trying to figure out how a child managed to climb ontop of a washer, second, there is an agitator in the middle, so that will stop him from fallining in all the way. Also, my washer was 10 yrs old (before it went out) but it had a function that when the lid was up the water stopped. I don't know, I'm one to analyze everything, and this story is just one that has too many loop holes. But I have to agree, that I think as providers we do watch the children way better than the parents.
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Old 04-04-2012, 06:08 AM
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Mine just has to be shut on the spin cycle. I got it used 18 years ago from one of my dc moms and it's lived with only one minor repair. I do about three loads a day so it's been a good machine. (not to jinx it now and have it blow up). When it did have problems it was within two days of my dishwasher and my fridge breakdown so I had the fortune of three repairs in a couple of days.

One thing I think of in this story is what the legal consequence to her will be for the lack of supervision. My guess is it will be zero.

If this would have happened with the same aged child, with the same machine, at the same time in a child care provider home the consequences would be HUGE. The provider would have been liable criminally for lack of supervision.

This is the kind of thing I'm speaking of when I say that the care of other peoples children is nothing like the care of your own. This parent was allowed to leave her really young toddler unsupervised for a pretty good amount of time and have access to water and have the worst possible scenario happen. I'll bet you the "legal" consequence to her will be nothing.

Now there may be more to the story but if this ends in just a "freak" accident where she SHOULD have been supervising the child but did not KNOW the risks of water access... the case will most likely close quickly.

Parents are allowed to make critical and fatal mistakes with their children because they are their children and they have the most to loose if death happens. We aren't allowed to allow a one year old baby to run the house and climb without having an adult doing direct supervision. He had to have shown her his climbing ability LONG before this happened to be that skilled of a climber.

So when you have a child who wants out of the supervised area to run the house remember this story. When you have one hanging on the gate because what's on the other side of the gate is a better gig than what is within the gated area.... It's okay for us to limit "run the house" and "climb the ___" because we can't take the risk that something like this will happen. Parents can. We can't.

thats what I'm trying to figure out, how did this child manage to climb into the washer, he had to have done it before. My ydd has always been a climber, but she never ever climbed my washer. I agree nanny, I think parents need to be punished when stupid accidents like this could have been prevented. This makes me angry that as a provider I can be charged, but a parent being stupid doesn't get charged, yes I know they lost a child but they should be punished also, makes them think twice.
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Old 04-04-2012, 06:10 AM
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Very sad My washing maching (high efficiency, newer model) will not do one thing if the lid is up. And actually my older machine (it was about 24 years old when it was retired due to many malfunctions, lol) wouldn't function with the lid up also if I recall correctly but I think it would fill up with water with the lid open which obviously could pose a problem.
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  #11  
Old 04-04-2012, 06:11 AM
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It is a horribly sad thing but seriously?! the mother was "in the living room looking at a magazine"!?!?
"She normally stays in the laundry room, but this time was distracted"?!?


Those are statements from the video (bout 40-45 seconds in)

This IS a VERY tragic situation but I wouldn't really call it an accident. I would call it poor supervision all together. Accidents are what happen when we have done EVERYTHING we can to safeguard something or someone and something still happens.....in the living room reading a magazine is NOT doing everything possible to prevent this.

I'm not trying to make this mother out to be a bad person or anything, as I am sure I have been guilty of using less than perfect supervision or prevention methods with my own children at one time or another during their childhood years, but like Nan said, parents aren't held to the same standards of responsibility or liability as others.

I am sure this mother is absolutely devastated but she does have some accountibility in this situation in my eyes.
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  #12  
Old 04-04-2012, 06:44 AM
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I definitely didn't supervise my own like I do the daycare kids BUT I safety proofed the house.

Here's a picture of my son hanging on a gate when he was about that age: http://www.nanshouse.com/apps/photos...otoid=41875715

I put up gates around electronics and hook latched the doors to the laundry room, bathroom, ebay room. I built half walls between the kitchen/dining room with half doors hooked on the kitchen side.

He had the upstairs playroom, his room, and the living room to free run without supervision. All the shelving and dressers are bolted into the walls.

He did "run the house" from about thirteen months old and then outside in the back at around three. I have the dc kids to age five and they have never done either of those at any age.

I wish we could allow "run the house" and climb the ____ because it's way more fun for everyone.
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  #13  
Old 04-04-2012, 06:46 AM
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Nan~ Your son is absolutely ADORABLE!!!!!!!!!
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Old 04-04-2012, 06:50 AM
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Nan~ Your son is absolutely ADORABLE!!!!!!!!!
I didn't have anything to do with it but I must agree.
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Old 04-04-2012, 07:13 AM
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I have to say, that I feel for this mother. I can't imagine living with this for the rest of your life knowing that it could have been prevented. In my eyes that is punishment enough. It wasn't a deliberate act, it was an accident. If she had been a helicopter parent everyone would have come down on her for that also because she would have been to over bearing on her child and never let them explore.

Please don't pass judgement on this mother, we don't even know her. She just lost her precious baby in a terrible accident that she will probably rewind in her mind for a long, long time. Even though we all say we wouldn't do anything like that, other things can happen and then it becomes a reality.
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Old 04-04-2012, 07:15 AM
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That is such a horrible story, but I agree 100% that it was preventable. Also agree that she most likely will not even be charged with a crime. THAT is the real horror.
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Old 04-04-2012, 07:19 AM
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I have to say, that I feel for this mother. I can't imagine living with this for the rest of your life knowing that it could have been prevented. In my eyes that is punishment enough in its eyes. It wasn't a deliberate act, it was an accident. If she had been a helicopter parent everyone would have come down on her for that also because she would have been to over bearing on her child and never let them explore.

Please don't pass judgement on this mother, we don't even know her. She just lost her precious baby in a terrible accident that she will probably rewind her mind for a long, long time. Even though we all say we wouldn't do anything like that, other things can happen and then it becomes a reality.
I don't think this qualifies as an accident. This was neglect. If she had left him in a bathtub, it would be more easily qualified as neglect. But the fact is the same -- she left her child unsupervised near more than 3 inches of water. Doesn't matter if that is a pool, tub, bucket, toilet, or washing machine.

Yes, she has to live with this for the rest of her life, but that isn't justice for the baby who drown. He died a horrific, preventable death.
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Old 04-04-2012, 07:33 AM
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Remember toilets also hold water ALL the time and hold a good three inches of water! I'm sure some of you have locks on them but its not a requirement for us. I'm sure 90% of parents don't have locks on them. At one point in their lives children play in the toilet water. I'm sure its a potential drowning risk right there. So if a child would drown would that be considered neglect-I never left my bathroom doors shut when my kids where little and no very few people that do.
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Old 04-04-2012, 07:34 AM
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My sil regularly leaves her kids unsupervised enough for this and/or other terrible things to happen to her 3yr old and 22 month old. Half the time she doesn't even know where they are at inside or outside. My hubs and I have refused to go there anymore because the lack of safety and concern for their child concerns us. I don't want to be present when something bad finally happens.

I agree I think this mom should be held accountable. I bet she put the kid on the drier while she was loading the washer then forgot him there or left him there to complete another task. In the time she was not present he got in the washer. Tragic but preventable.
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Old 04-04-2012, 07:40 AM
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I have a little different take on this. Speaking from experience.

9 years ago I had 3 children they were ages 4 (DD), 2 (DS), and 8 mos (DD). I worked days and my ex worked nights. So he watched them at my house during the day while I was at work.

One summer day in July my ex was playing with the kids in the backyard with the hose and water balloons. It was time for lunch so they came into eat. After lunch he got the boys out of their highchairs and took the 2 year old upstairs to change him and go down for a nap. When he came downstairs (about 5 minutes) the 8 month old was no where to be found. He ended up finding him in the backyard upside down in a bucket of water. He rescusitated him and called 911. After 5 days in the hospital my DD died.

After investigation it was found that when they came in from playing outside my 4 yr DD had shut the sliding screen and the verticle blinds but not the glass door. My 8 mos old son had crawled through a hole in the screen.

Yes it was an aweful tragedy and the worst thing I have ever gone through. But I never in a million years had dreamed that my ex should be punished criminally for this. We went through many therapy sessions. Especially for my daughter because she had kept saying that she killed her brother, her knowing she didnt shut the sliding door only the screen. We explained to her that it was our responsibility to watch him and keep him safe, not hers.

My belief is that punishment by the court system is for rehabilitation or to show the person that they have consequences for their actions. My ex got real life consequences. There would have been no benefit to him or anyone else for him to be punished criminally. He has to live with this every day of his life. After seeing him go through this, I know he would have rather wanted to be thrown in solitary confinement and never be seen or heard from again.

I am one of the most conciencess people I know as far as childrens safety and I cant say that this would never have happened on my watch.

As far as providers liability, I do think that we are held to a higher standard than parents. I wouldn't want it any other way. I usually have many more safety measures in place than parents because I know all the risks involved and know what kind of mayhem children can get into. Parents niavety, for lack of a better word, is not negligence. I also think in some cases accidents that happened to providers, the providers shouldn't be prosecuted anymore than the parents should.

My feeling is that sometimes we need to take all factors into consideration and that yes accidents can happen and okay maybe you didnt have EVERY safety measure in place but in the case that Nannyde linked I dont see negligence or ill intent involved. We can't put our kids in a bubble. We are humans and we make mistakes. Sometimes natural consequences are far worse than any consequence a court system can impose on someone.

Just my take anyway for what its worth.
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Old 04-04-2012, 07:42 AM
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How sad and horrible.

I agree that parents should be held to some accountability for preventable “accidents” like these. More than just “community service” in the

form of helping to educate parents in the dangers of what ever they did. I biggest danger here was not the machine in and of itself; it was leaving the

child alone, for an unreasonable amount of time for his environment. I realize that it is a fine line between making sure parents are accountable and “re-

victimizing” them. However, the facts of the matter are that the mother left the child alone in a non-child proofed room while she was in another room reading a magazine.


My prayers go out to the family and friends of this child.
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Old 04-04-2012, 07:45 AM
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I still think it is criminal neglect. My biggest worry is that this *MAY* be an accident, but what if it wasn't? Parents have killed children before. It looks like an accident and mom isn't charged. Perfect crime right there... Charging her prevents any other murderous parents/stepparents/caregivers from copycatting this scenario. How many times have we seen kids with third degree burns from parents holding them in scalding water. The parents always claim it was an accident.

If she is charged an found innocent, then I accept that. But I refuse to accept that a child is dead and no one is considered responsible for that death except the child. He did not choose to die. He is supposed to have an adult caring for him so that he can explore the world safely without dying or being seriously injured. SOMEONE is responsible for his death and I know that it is that mother. Accident or not, she is responsible for his death.
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Old 04-04-2012, 07:45 AM
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Mrs B, (((hugs))) to you and I am sorry for your loss.

However, your DH was changing another child and what happened at your house was a tragic accident.

The mother of this child was sitting on the couch in the other room, reading a magazine. BIG difference in action by the adults in charge.
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Old 04-04-2012, 07:50 AM
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I did not read the article sorry ... I just have to admit that when I do read these types of stories I'm disturbed and it effects me all day which is why I don't read them. Unfortunately it's all to clear that the ending was not a happy one which is surprising because the reason that newer washing machines all have that safety feature that doesn't allow them to oscillate or spin without first closing a lid is because of a mother that lost her own toddler daughter in a washing machine accident. At least when she lost her daughter she did something about it but she always lobbied that supervision was key. What a tragedy that another child is lost.

Like others have said, it was either an older model or the safety mechanism was broken but in either case if the child was being supervised the child would still be alive. I'm not trying to be cold toward the family and my heart goes out to them, they lost a child afterall and that's the most horrible feeling ever (I thought I literally lost my child once and I didn't know how to function, I went into shock). I just wish people would stop having the "It'll never happen to me" mentality because it does happen, so why not to you?
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Old 04-04-2012, 07:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsB View Post
I have a little different take on this. Speaking from experience.

9 years ago I had 3 children they were ages 4 (DD), 2 (DS), and 8 mos (DD). I worked days and my ex worked nights. So he watched them at my house during the day while I was at work.

One summer day in July my ex was playing with the kids in the backyard with the hose and water balloons. It was time for lunch so they came into eat. After lunch he got the boys out of their highchairs and took the 2 year old upstairs to change him and go down for a nap. When he came downstairs (about 5 minutes) the 8 month old was no where to be found. He ended up finding him in the backyard upside down in a bucket of water. He rescusitated him and called 911. After 5 days in the hospital my DD died.

After investigation it was found that when they came in from playing outside my 4 yr DD had shut the sliding screen and the verticle blinds but not the glass door. My 8 mos old son had crawled through a hole in the screen.

Yes it was an aweful tragedy and the worst thing I have ever gone through. But I never in a million years had dreamed that my ex should be punished criminally for this. We went through many therapy sessions. Especially for my daughter because she had kept saying that she killed her brother, her knowing she didnt shut the sliding door only the screen. We explained to her that it was our responsibility to watch him and keep him safe, not hers.

My belief is that punishment by the court system is for rehabilitation or to show the person that they have consequences for their actions. My ex got real life consequences. There would have been no benefit to him or anyone else for him to be punished criminally. He has to live with this every day of his life. After seeing him go through this, I know he would have rather wanted to be thrown in solitary confinement and never be seen or heard from again.

I am one of the most conciencess people I know as far as childrens safety and I cant say that this would never have happened on my watch.

As far as providers liability, I do think that we are held to a higher standard than parents. I wouldn't want it any other way. I usually have many more safety measures in place than parents because I know all the risks involved and know what kind of mayhem children can get into. Parents niavety, for lack of a better word, is not negligence. I also think in some cases accidents that happened to providers, the providers shouldn't be prosecuted anymore than the parents should.

My feeling is that sometimes we need to take all factors into consideration and that yes accidents can happen and okay maybe you didnt have EVERY safety measure in place but in the case that Nannyde linked I dont see negligence or ill intent involved. We can't put our kids in a bubble. We are humans and we make mistakes. Sometimes natural consequences are far worse than any consequence a court system can impose on someone.

Just my take anyway for what its worth.
I am so very sorry for your loss.

I don't see any similarities in your son's death and this child's. Your ex was caring for another child. The bucket was outside. The door was shut. I see what happened to your son as a horrible, horrible accident.
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Old 04-04-2012, 07:58 AM
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My washer is 25 years old and can run with the lid up except for the spin cycle.
Mine is 6 years old and does the same thing...
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Old 04-04-2012, 08:03 AM
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I still think it is criminal neglect. My biggest worry is that this *MAY* be an accident, but what if it wasn't? Parents have killed children before. It looks like an accident and mom isn't charged. Perfect crime right there... Charging her prevents any other murderous parents/stepparents/caregivers from copycatting this scenario. How many times have we seen kids with third degree burns from parents holding them in scalding water. The parents always claim it was an accident.

If she is charged an found innocent, then I accept that. But I refuse to accept that a child is dead and no one is considered responsible for that death except the child. He did not choose to die. He is supposed to have an adult caring for him so that he can explore the world safely without dying or being seriously injured. SOMEONE is responsible for his death and I know that it is that mother. Accident or not, she is responsible for his death.
ummm...no one is charged and found innocent. They are charged and found not guilty, which means it could not be proven that the person is guilty. AKA OJ Simpson. We're all pretty sure he's guilty, he's hinted at the fact, but it wasn't proven. There is a BIG distinction.
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Old 04-04-2012, 08:06 AM
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ummm...no one is charged and found innocent. They are charged and found not guilty, which means it could not be proven that the person is guilty. AKA OJ Simpson. We're all pretty sure he's guilty, he's hinted at the fact, but it wasn't proven. There is a BIG distinction.
Yes, you are correct
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Old 04-04-2012, 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by MrsB View Post
I have a little different take on this. Speaking from experience.

9 years ago I had 3 children they were ages 4 (DD), 2 (DS), and 8 mos (DD). I worked days and my ex worked nights. So he watched them at my house during the day while I was at work.

One summer day in July my ex was playing with the kids in the backyard with the hose and water balloons. It was time for lunch so they came into eat. After lunch he got the boys out of their highchairs and took the 2 year old upstairs to change him and go down for a nap. When he came downstairs (about 5 minutes) the 8 month old was no where to be found. He ended up finding him in the backyard upside down in a bucket of water. He rescusitated him and called 911. After 5 days in the hospital my DD died.

After investigation it was found that when they came in from playing outside my 4 yr DD had shut the sliding screen and the verticle blinds but not the glass door. My 8 mos old son had crawled through a hole in the screen.

Yes it was an aweful tragedy and the worst thing I have ever gone through. But I never in a million years had dreamed that my ex should be punished criminally for this. We went through many therapy sessions. Especially for my daughter because she had kept saying that she killed her brother, her knowing she didnt shut the sliding door only the screen. We explained to her that it was our responsibility to watch him and keep him safe, not hers.

My belief is that punishment by the court system is for rehabilitation or to show the person that they have consequences for their actions. My ex got real life consequences. There would have been no benefit to him or anyone else for him to be punished criminally. He has to live with this every day of his life. After seeing him go through this, I know he would have rather wanted to be thrown in solitary confinement and never be seen or heard from again.

I am one of the most conciencess people I know as far as childrens safety and I cant say that this would never have happened on my watch.

As far as providers liability, I do think that we are held to a higher standard than parents. I wouldn't want it any other way. I usually have many more safety measures in place than parents because I know all the risks involved and know what kind of mayhem children can get into. Parents niavety, for lack of a better word, is not negligence. I also think in some cases accidents that happened to providers, the providers shouldn't be prosecuted anymore than the parents should.

My feeling is that sometimes we need to take all factors into consideration and that yes accidents can happen and okay maybe you didnt have EVERY safety measure in place but in the case that Nannyde linked I dont see negligence or ill intent involved. We can't put our kids in a bubble. We are humans and we make mistakes. Sometimes natural consequences are far worse than any consequence a court system can impose on someone.

Just my take anyway for what its worth.
Mrs B, I am so sorry. Our family has had a similar loss. My sister lost her precious 8mo daughter to a similar tradgedy. While camping at their rustic cabin, my niece somehow managed to get access to a plastic bag (up until then, she wasn't crawling), and suffocated. The situation was investigated, and the authoritities decided not to press any charges. There were several slightly older children, and it's possible one of them left the bag out. I suspect the investigators didn't want to put that scar on them.
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Old 04-04-2012, 08:11 AM
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Yes, you are correct
Jen-please don't think I'm being snarky. It's a bit of a hot spot, since our family has lived through this. Beleive me, they charge people (sometime unfairly) if they suspect anything. When a child dies of unnatural causes, they always investigate, and there is always a trail of clues to follow, usually signs of previous abuse.

My sister held her baby girl for HOURS after she died at the hospital. The nurses kept bringing warming blankets to keep her warm as long as possible. Anyone who witnessed the way the family acted KNEW there was no reason to press charges.
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Old 04-04-2012, 08:19 AM
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Jen-please don't think I'm being snarky. It's a bit of a hot spot, since our family has lived through this. Beleive me, they charge people (sometime unfairly) if they suspect anything. When a child dies of unnatural causes, they always investigate, and there is always a trail of clues to follow, usually signs of previous abuse.

My sister held her baby girl for HOURS after she died at the hospital. The nurses kept bringing warming blankets to keep her warm as long as possible. Anyone who witnessed the way the family acted KNEW there was no reason to press charges.
I don't think you are being snarky. I completely understand. Your sister's loss also sounds like a horrific accident. I am so very sorry for your entire family.

Our family suffered a child loss as well which is probably the reason I am *for* criminal charges. We had a mother in our family who was being abused by her boyfriend. Several criminal charges and time in jail for domestic battery. She chose to leave her child with this man while she went to a friend's house for the evening. This man beat her daughter into a coma and then tucked her into bed before her mother returned. She died the next day at the hospital.

This man was convicted and spent just 3 years in jail. The mother never had charges filed against her. So yeah, "innocent" isn't how I feel about her either. I think she is equally responsible for her child's death.
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Old 04-04-2012, 08:23 AM
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I don't think you are being snarky. I completely understand. Your sister's loss also sounds like a horrific accident. I am so very sorry for your entire family.

Our family suffered a child loss as well which is probably the reason I am *for* criminal charges. We had a mother in our family who was being abused by her boyfriend. Several criminal charges and time in jail for domestic battery. She chose to leave her child with this man while she went to a friend's house for the evening. This man beat her daughter into a coma and then tucked her into bed before her mother returned. She died the next day at the hospital.

This man was convicted and spent just 3 years in jail. The mother never had charges filed against her. So yeah, "innocent" isn't how I feel about her either. I think she is equally responsible for her child's death.
UGH!

Yeah...sometimes it's all about perspective. I agree, leaving her child with someone who smacked her around sounds like criminal neglect.
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Old 04-04-2012, 08:30 AM
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thats what I'm trying to figure out, how did this child manage to climb into the washer, he had to have done it before. My ydd has always been a climber, but she never ever climbed my washer. I agree nanny, I think parents need to be punished when stupid accidents like this could have been prevented. This makes me angry that as a provider I can be charged, but a parent being stupid doesn't get charged, yes I know they lost a child but they should be punished also, makes them think twice.
My own children are climbers and the way they climbed onto the washer at 15/16 months creeping up the wall and the washer. By the time they were 20 months they could just pull themselves up. Takes less than 3 seconds from them to go from floor to top.
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Old 04-04-2012, 08:36 AM
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I have a little different take on this. Speaking from experience.

9 years ago I had 3 children they were ages 4 (DD), 2 (DS), and 8 mos (DD). I worked days and my ex worked nights. So he watched them at my house during the day while I was at work.

One summer day in July my ex was playing with the kids in the backyard with the hose and water balloons. It was time for lunch so they came into eat. After lunch he got the boys out of their highchairs and took the 2 year old upstairs to change him and go down for a nap. When he came downstairs (about 5 minutes) the 8 month old was no where to be found. He ended up finding him in the backyard upside down in a bucket of water. He rescusitated him and called 911. After 5 days in the hospital my DD died.

After investigation it was found that when they came in from playing outside my 4 yr DD had shut the sliding screen and the verticle blinds but not the glass door. My 8 mos old son had crawled through a hole in the screen.

Yes it was an aweful tragedy and the worst thing I have ever gone through. But I never in a million years had dreamed that my ex should be punished criminally for this. We went through many therapy sessions. Especially for my daughter because she had kept saying that she killed her brother, her knowing she didnt shut the sliding door only the screen. We explained to her that it was our responsibility to watch him and keep him safe, not hers.

My belief is that punishment by the court system is for rehabilitation or to show the person that they have consequences for their actions. My ex got real life consequences. There would have been no benefit to him or anyone else for him to be punished criminally. He has to live with this every day of his life. After seeing him go through this, I know he would have rather wanted to be thrown in solitary confinement and never be seen or heard from again.

I am one of the most conciencess people I know as far as childrens safety and I cant say that this would never have happened on my watch.

As far as providers liability, I do think that we are held to a higher standard than parents. I wouldn't want it any other way. I usually have many more safety measures in place than parents because I know all the risks involved and know what kind of mayhem children can get into. Parents niavety, for lack of a better word, is not negligence. I also think in some cases accidents that happened to providers, the providers shouldn't be prosecuted anymore than the parents should.

My feeling is that sometimes we need to take all factors into consideration and that yes accidents can happen and okay maybe you didnt have EVERY safety measure in place but in the case that Nannyde linked I dont see negligence or ill intent involved. We can't put our kids in a bubble. We are humans and we make mistakes. Sometimes natural consequences are far worse than any consequence a court system can impose on someone.

Just my take anyway for what its worth.
Sorry for your loss.

Thank you for sharing your story.

I understand what you are saying about not criminaly charging parents during this kind of tradegy if there is no other signs of abuse ect. I do however think

that the "system" needs to recogonize that in some of the case that are declared a tradgic actident where preventable by an adult and is certainly

the case in this washing machine story. For me accountablility does not necesarily mean criminial charges.
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Old 04-04-2012, 08:51 AM
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What I'm going to ask, I want everyone to truly think about.

If this mom happened to be one of us and told her story here, would everyone tell her they feel she should be punished through the courts? Would you say you were negligent and killed your child? Would you let her know what a horrible mother she was?

Now, we have had three stories on here about providers either own children dying or a family member. The only one that even needed to go through the courts was the boyfriend that beat the little girl. Everyone agreed on that!

The other two stories just break my heart also and everyone agreed they were accidents. Now if you read about those in the paper, didn't know the person would you say they same thing or would you say they were being neglectful and something needed to be done?

Michael, just posted a great thread on "Who's on the other side of the computor." Remember know one really knows who reads this and the effect your words may have on them. I thank the those that put their stories on here, that had the courage to let us know what happened to their children. I'm so sorry for your losses and know that day you lost part of yourself with your child.
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Old 04-04-2012, 09:07 AM
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What I'm going to ask, I want everyone to truly think about.

If this mom happened to be one of us and told her story here, would everyone tell her they feel she should be punished through the courts? Would you say you were negligent and killed your child? Would you let her know what a horrible mother she was?
Now, we have had three stories on here about providers either own children dying or a family member. The only one that even needed to go through the courts was the boyfriend that beat the little girl. Everyone agreed on that!

The other two stories just break my heart also and everyone agreed they were accidents. Now if you read about those in the paper, didn't know the person would you say they same thing or would you say they were being neglectful and something needed to be done?

Michael, just posted a great thread on "Who's on the other side of the computor." Remember know one really knows who reads this and the effect your words may have on them. I thank the those that put their stories on here, that had the courage to let us know what happened to their children. I'm so sorry for your losses and know that day you lost part of yourself with your child.
I reply and post on this board exactly as I would in real life. I don't change who I am and how I feel because I am typing vs speaking directly to someone.


Something VERY similar happened in my community a few weeks ago where a gal was watching her friends almost 2 yr old at a pool party and she lost track of him and he fell into the hot tub and drown. The gal that was babysitting this child was a former dcm of mine.

She was/is devasted and I completely understand but I still think it was her responsibility to watch this child. She failed and failed badly so do I feel for her? Absolutely! But it doesnt change the fact that she could have done things differently.

She COULD HAVE prevented what happened. Whether or not someone could have prevented something is a major factor in every type of similar situation.
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Old 04-04-2012, 09:09 AM
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I reply and post on this board exactly as I would in real life. I don't change who I am and how I feel because I am typing vs speaking directly to someone.


Something VERY similar happened in my community a few weeks ago where a gal was watching her friends almost 2 yr old at a pool party and she lost track of him and he fell into the hot tub and drown. The gal that was babysitting this child was a former dcm of mine.

She was/is devasted and I completely understand but I still think it was her responsibility to watch this child. She failed and failed badly so do I feel for her? Absolutely! But it doesnt change the fact that she could have done things differently.

She COULD HAVE prevented what happened. Whether or not someone could have prevented something is a major factor in every type of similar situation.
Did you tell her all of htis blackcat? Thats what I'm asking very seriously. If you would see her out are you going to let her know how you feel?
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Old 04-04-2012, 09:18 AM
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My washer is 25 years old and can run with the lid up except for the spin cycle.
Same for me. It only has to be closed for the spin cycle. But.... if I hold the little button down, making the machine "think" the lid is closed, it will spin.
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Old 04-04-2012, 09:27 AM
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Nan, your son is gorgeous!! That hair!!!

No words to add to this senseless preventable tragedy.
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Old 04-04-2012, 09:27 AM
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I have to say, that I feel for this mother. I can't imagine living with this for the rest of your life knowing that it could have been prevented. In my eyes that is punishment enough. It wasn't a deliberate act, it was an accident. If she had been a helicopter parent everyone would have come down on her for that also because she would have been to over bearing on her child and never let them explore.

Please don't pass judgement on this mother, we don't even know her. She just lost her precious baby in a terrible accident that she will probably rewind in her mind for a long, long time. Even though we all say we wouldn't do anything like that, other things can happen and then it becomes a reality.
I totally agree. There is nothing that the law could do to this mother that is worse than her losing her baby. Her pain has got to be so all consuming that most of us could never imagine what she is going through. I am sure she is beating herself up and reliving this over and over and over. This is an awful tragedy for this family and it is so easy for everyone on the outside to say this could never happen to them and to judge her as a bad parent. Every parent has had at least one moment where they have not used the best judgement and thier child could have suffered for it. Fortunately, those bad momentary judgments do not usually result in something like this. I, for one, am praying for this family during what is most likely the absolute worst time of thier lives.

Last edited by saved4always; 04-04-2012 at 09:28 AM. Reason: spelling error
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Old 04-04-2012, 09:29 AM
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Nan~ Your son is absolutely ADORABLE!!!!!!!!!
Yes, he is soooo cute!
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Old 04-04-2012, 09:38 AM
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Nan, your son is gorgeous!! That hair!!!
Yeah that's when he had SHORT hair.
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Old 04-04-2012, 09:43 AM
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Wow - how sad!
I have front loaders so of course nothing will happen with the door open, but we have had older top loads where it will fill with water just won't spin if the lid is open.

Accidents like this are so scary, things that could happen to anybody...
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Old 04-04-2012, 09:47 AM
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What I'm going to ask, I want everyone to truly think about.

If this mom happened to be one of us and told her story here, would everyone tell her they feel she should be punished through the courts? Would you say you were negligent and killed your child? Would you let her know what a horrible mother she was?
I don't think a moment of neglect makes a horrible mother. So, I wouldn't say that.

Would I go out of my way to throw salt in the wound of a mourning mother? No, that would be cruel. Just because I have an opinion doesn't mean I have to share it.

My opinions don't change just because I am online. I would still have the same opinion. That negligent caretakers, no matter who they are, should be investigated and charged if the evidence deems it necessary. Accidents are accidents. Neglect is neglect. I believe that neglect deserves criminal charges.
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Old 04-04-2012, 09:48 AM
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You have a long haired son too?

My sons are all wearing their hair short NOW but when my oldest was a 5th grader he grew his hair out and donated it too locks of love. I loved his long surfer boy curls!!
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Old 04-04-2012, 09:52 AM
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You have a long haired son too?

My sons are all wearing their hair short NOW but when my oldest was a 5th grader he grew his hair out and donated it too locks of love. I loved his long surfer boy curls!!
Yes for as long as I could get by with it. He went to short hair in fourth grade. We donated his hair to locks of love too.
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Old 04-04-2012, 10:20 AM
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Thank you all for your well wishes! Although if I could do anything to bring him back I would, I can't imagine who I would be today not going through it all.

I guess my point is that all accidents are preventable. In my case, Dad could have checked the door, he could of overturned the bucket of water, he could have taken baby upstairs with him, he could have left him in his high chair, he could have dropped him in his pack n play, he could have changed the 2 yr old downstairs.

I also agree that every case should be investigated and all the details taken into consideration.

In this case I dont feel like I have enough information to pass judgement on the mom that she should be held criminaly liable. Even with her reading the magazine. After I got to hear all the details, I may change my mind and say it was negligent and deserves additional punishment. Just can't form one on the information given. You just never know with news these days how they spin articles either.

Don't get me wrong I am not saying that all accidents should just be summed up as accidents either.

Just after all my experiences, I decided to refuse to pass judgement.

My major issue with these types of situations is that families/society want to see people "pay" and want "justice" to be served. My opinion regarless of what the circumstances or who was at fault whether it be a friend/ DC provider/ parent who was responsible, There is no justice when a child dies, ever. Accident or otherwise. Someone paying for the loss of my son, doesnt make my pain or the loss any less.
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Old 04-04-2012, 10:28 AM
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Thank you all for your well wishes! Although if I could do anything to bring him back I would, I can't imagine who I would be today not going through it all.

I guess my point is that all accidents are preventable. In my case, Dad could have checked the door, he could of overturned the bucket of water, he could have taken baby upstairs with him, he could have left him in his high chair, he could have dropped him in his pack n play, he could have changed the 2 yr old downstairs.

I also agree that every case should be investigated and all the details taken into consideration.

In this case I dont feel like I have enough information to pass judgement on the mom that she should be held criminaly liable. Even with her reading the magazine. After I got to hear all the details, I may change my mind and say it was negligent and deserves additional punishment. Just can't form one on the information given. You just never know with news these days how they spin articles either.

Don't get me wrong I am not saying that all accidents should just be summed up as accidents either.

Just after all my experiences, I decided to refuse to pass judgement.

My major issue with these types of situations is that families/society want to see people "pay" and want "justice" to be served. My opinion regarless of what the circumstances or who was at fault whether it be a friend/ DC provider/ parent who was responsible, There is no justice when a child dies, ever. Accident or otherwise. Someone paying for the loss of my son, doesnt make my pain or the loss any less.


Very well said Mrs. B. I would like to bring something up that you said. You said all the things that your ex husband could have done but didn't. When I was saying about passing judgement if this lady came to the board, I was thinking of the things your ex husband could have done. Everyone said to you-we are sorry, and yes that was an accident. Yet you came up with many things your ex husband could have done to prevent it. Not one person said he was negligent and should be charged with a crime, they all saw it as an accident.

Thats why I was wondering if she came on the board and wrote her story would people say, yes it was an accident or say she was negligent to her.
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Old 04-04-2012, 10:33 AM
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Did you tell her all of htis blackcat? Thats what I'm asking very seriously. If you would see her out are you going to let her know how you feel?
Yes, as a matter of fact, I did say something to her. I understand that she may feel awful about the whole thing but bottom line is she COULD have done something to prevent it and didn't.

Did I say those words to her? Yes, I did. I didn't say them so bluntly but I did let her know that she could have done something different. She could have prevented this whole situation had she not felt the need to go outside the hotel/pool area and have a smoke.

I told her it was a shame that her need to smoke outweighed the right of the mother of the dead child to have him supervised to the best of this gals ability.

I was VERY clear that I do not feel it was a tragic accident. She knows exactly how I feel.

So yes, in response to your question, I did share my thoughts and feelings with her.

I also stand by my statement that I do not change what I think and feel between posting here and what I think and feel in real life.
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Old 04-04-2012, 10:37 AM
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Thank you all for your well wishes! Although if I could do anything to bring him back I would, I can't imagine who I would be today not going through it all.

I guess my point is that all accidents are preventable. In my case, Dad could have checked the door, he could of overturned the bucket of water, he could have taken baby upstairs with him, he could have left him in his high chair, he could have dropped him in his pack n play, he could have changed the 2 yr old downstairs.

I also agree that every case should be investigated and all the details taken into consideration.

In this case I dont feel like I have enough information to pass judgement on the mom that she should be held criminaly liable. Even with her reading the magazine. After I got to hear all the details, I may change my mind and say it was negligent and deserves additional punishment. Just can't form one on the information given. You just never know with news these days how they spin articles either.

Some of these stories are funny now because nothing happened. The ones where something does clearly aren't. I guess I'm just saying, anything can happen, and we should count our blessings every day!
Don't get me wrong I am not saying that all accidents should just be summed up as accidents either.

Just after all my experiences, I decided to refuse to pass judgement.

My major issue with these types of situations is that families/society want to see people "pay" and want "justice" to be served. My opinion regarless of what the circumstances or who was at fault whether it be a friend/ DC provider/ parent who was responsible, There is no justice when a child dies, ever. Accident or otherwise. Someone paying for the loss of my son, doesnt make my pain or the loss any less.
Unfortunately, these things do happen quite often. We can only be as careful as we can. Tired parents leave their sleeping infant in the car instead of going to daycare. Not that many years ago, a young couple raced their fevered toddler to the E.R, and because she was so miserable, mom took her on her lap and held her. Someone ran into them, and the child died. They prosected the parents. I'm not sure I agree. Of course, she should have been in a carseat, but I can understand a young couple thinking it would be ok just this once when she was inconsolable.

My ex and I once found our friend's toddler on top of a stack of oil cans at a big-box store. They were around the corner, and we just happened on the scene. They had parked the cart right next to the stack, and he just scaled it! It could easily have been a tragedy! My own sons decided once it was a GREAT idea to make an enormous hole in the sand (by our lake house) and climb in. They were 11 & 13 at the time. With just the right conditions, it could have been a disaster. Gosh, for that matter, I am suprised my husband or I survived our childhood sometimes. He screamed around on mini bikes at 9, sans helmet. I once pulled the door open in a taxi cab in Germany as a toddler (in the days before carseats), and held on for dear life as we went around a corner. My mom said she saw the cab driver age ten years right before her eyes. Vacations used to be they'd throw you in the back seat, toss a sausage back there, and take off. Seat belts? Heck, we used to lay in the back of the station wagon and "camp" the whole way!
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Old 04-04-2012, 10:56 AM
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I'm surprised many of us have made it this far growing up in the times we did. There were no "safety" laws in effect so did alot of children die because of this and that is why we have the laws now or where they just put in place because none were there. Where our parents deemed "neglectful",-no.

I've had my share of accidents, near misses, and what were my parents thinking! To this day though no broken bones, have all my organs but my gallbladder and love to remember the way I use to play.

The first month of kindergarten my son broke his arm at school but you know what things happen. The teacher couldn't have stopped it and live went on. No, he didn't die but he couldn't have been injured alot worse but he was being looked out for that day.

BBO, if you did that taxi thing now, I'm sure the authorities would have you in foster care within the hour. I remember many trips laying in the back window of the car lounging in the sun on a trip-boy were those the days!
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Old 04-04-2012, 11:03 AM
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This reminds me of when I was a child. I was the oldest of 5 and we went on road trips all the time. My dad raced motorcycles. We too got thrown in the back of my dads van, we had a full size bed in the back and no seats. We stopped at a gas station and all used the potty. Everyone got back in and mom and dad would have us count off. Well someone counted off for my brother he was 8 or 9 at the time. He got left at the gas station. We didnt notice until about a half hour down the road. We got stopped by the police on our way back to get him. They had him. My brother was consoled, put back in the back with us and we were on the road again. I dont really recall my parents feelings at the time but I am sure they felt aweful! My brother didnt have any lasting effects from it. On occasion it gets brought up jokingly and still no one has admitted that they were the one that called his number!

Guess this kind of proves my point. No one could say what would have happened, had something serious happened to my brother. But throwing my parents in jail and taking 4 other kids away from their family unit I am not sure would have been fair either.

For the record, those family road trips, were some of the best days of my life!
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Old 04-04-2012, 11:08 AM
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This reminds me of when I was a child. I was the oldest of 5 and we went on road trips all the time. My dad raced motorcycles. We too got thrown in the back of my dads van, we had a full size bed in the back and no seats. We stopped at a gas station and all used the potty. Everyone got back in and mom and dad would have us count off. Well someone counted off for my brother he was 8 or 9 at the time. He got left at the gas station. We didnt notice until about a half hour down the road. We got stopped by the police on our way back to get him. They had him. My brother was consoled, put back in the back with us and we were on the road again. I dont really recall my parents feelings at the time but I am sure they felt aweful! My brother didnt have any lasting effects from it. On occasion it gets brought up jokingly and still no one has admitted that they were the one that called his number!

Guess this kind of proves my point. No one could say what would have happened, had something serious happened to my brother. But throwing my parents in jail and taking 4 other kids away from their family unit I am not sure would have been fair either.

For the record, those family road trips, were some of the best days of my life!
This happened to my husband and a brother or two other brothers. All I know is they love to tell the story and of course they add extra things to it just to get to my MIL. She takes it all in stride though and they all laugh about it to this day-
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Old 04-04-2012, 11:38 AM
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my dh forgot ds in best buy. Its so funny to this day. Ds was 9 at the time and he loves to play the video games at best buy. Well dh went in with him but didn't come out with him. So me and the girls are sitting in the van and dh sits down in the van, and I ask him where ds was and he goes "oh sh*t I forgot him" omg, did we ever laugh. Goes and gets him and he's laughing too. I knew one day we would leave one behind, thats what happens when you have 4 kids.
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Old 04-04-2012, 12:00 PM
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Default Washing machine tragedy here too....

From our local paper this past week.


http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=960...-urges-caution
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Old 04-04-2012, 12:13 PM
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From our local paper this past week.


http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=960...-urges-caution


after watching that... now I'm suspicious.
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Old 04-04-2012, 12:16 PM
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From our local paper this past week.


http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=960...-urges-caution
It looks like this is the same little guy as the one Nan posted. They had just moved to Oregon but came back to Utah to bury the little boy-
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Old 04-04-2012, 12:18 PM
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It's the same story, just told two different ways.

My dad once had a "showdown" with a mafia-used-car-salesman on Cicero Avenue in Chicago. Being a newly-arrived foreigner, he didn't really realize who he was dealing with, and when the car broke down on the way home, my dad confronted him. He got a lickin' for his troubles, from Mr. Mafia's "associates".

Mike Rycko did a story on it, and described my dad has a frail, demure little man.

HA! My dad was 6 '4", and he was definately NOT demure.

I read the article as an adult, and it taught me to take everything I see or read with a "grain of salt".
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Old 04-04-2012, 12:28 PM
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Deeply saddening. My heart goes out to the family.
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Old 04-04-2012, 12:30 PM
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after watching that... now I'm suspicious.
Why are you suspicious?
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Old 04-04-2012, 12:35 PM
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I didn't have anything to do with it but I must agree.
My gosh what a handsome little guy!

I feel that this washing machine thing is criminal negligence, to be honest. I'd be sitting in jail right now awaiting a pre-trial hearing or whatever if it were me and a dc kid. Parents should be held to the same standards we are.
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Old 04-04-2012, 05:43 PM
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Oh, reading this whole thing makes my heart break, for the poor mom who will be living her worst nightmare over and over in her head for the rest of her life, and in these responses, those who think she should be treated like a criminal. It truly makes my stomach sick to read the judgement. I understand you are all trying to look out for the child, but most of you on here are mothers (or fathers) too. Can you honestly say you as parents have never sat down to look at a magazine or the computer or whatever and even for just a minute lost track of your toddler?? I know I have. I am human. I make mistakes. We all do. This poor woman made a mistake. A child learns lessons best when they have natural consequences that follow a poor choice. I think adults do too. She has her natural consequences and I wouldn't wish this consequence on my worst enemy. If there is one lesson I hope to impart to my children is its not our place to judge. I've learned this lesson the hard way. Until we have walked in her shoes, I feel we need to be very careful about our opinions.
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Old 04-04-2012, 05:56 PM
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Oh, reading this whole thing makes my heart break, for the poor mom who will be living her worst nightmare over and over in her head for the rest of her life, and in these responses, those who think she should be treated like a criminal. It truly makes my stomach sick to read the judgement. I understand you are all trying to look out for the child, but most of you on here are mothers (or fathers) too. Can you honestly say you as parents have never sat down to look at a magazine or the computer or whatever and even for just a minute lost track of your toddler?? I know I have. I am human. I make mistakes. We all do. This poor woman made a mistake. A child learns lessons best when they have natural consequences that follow a poor choice. I think adults do too. She has her natural consequences and I wouldn't wish this consequence on my worst enemy. If there is one lesson I hope to impart to my children is its not our place to judge. I've learned this lesson the hard way. Until we have walked in her shoes, I feel we need to be very careful about our opinions.

Your response is right on and excellent. I agree with everything you said!
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Old 04-04-2012, 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Jenniferdawn View Post
Oh, reading this whole thing makes my heart break, for the poor mom who will be living her worst nightmare over and over in her head for the rest of her life, and in these responses, those who think she should be treated like a criminal. It truly makes my stomach sick to read the judgement. I understand you are all trying to look out for the child, but most of you on here are mothers (or fathers) too. Can you honestly say you as parents have never sat down to look at a magazine or the computer or whatever and even for just a minute lost track of your toddler?? I know I have. I am human. I make mistakes. We all do. This poor woman made a mistake. A child learns lessons best when they have natural consequences that follow a poor choice. I think adults do too. She has her natural consequences and I wouldn't wish this consequence on my worst enemy. If there is one lesson I hope to impart to my children is its not our place to judge. I've learned this lesson the hard way. Until we have walked in her shoes, I feel we need to be very careful about our opinions.
I am in total agreement with you. The pain that this poor mother must feel just makes my heart hurt for her. I have had that same sick feeling reading the responses on here today.
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Old 04-04-2012, 11:08 PM
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Originally Posted by MrsB View Post
This reminds me of when I was a child. I was the oldest of 5 and we went on road trips all the time. My dad raced motorcycles. We too got thrown in the back of my dads van, we had a full size bed in the back and no seats. We stopped at a gas station and all used the potty. Everyone got back in and mom and dad would have us count off. Well someone counted off for my brother he was 8 or 9 at the time. He got left at the gas station. We didnt notice until about a half hour down the road. We got stopped by the police on our way back to get him. They had him. My brother was consoled, put back in the back with us and we were on the road again. I dont really recall my parents feelings at the time but I am sure they felt aweful! My brother didnt have any lasting effects from it. On occasion it gets brought up jokingly and still no one has admitted that they were the one that called his number!

Guess this kind of proves my point. No one could say what would have happened, had something serious happened to my brother. But throwing my parents in jail and taking 4 other kids away from their family unit I am not sure would have been fair either.

For the record, those family road trips, were some of the best days of my life!
Dh was left also at a gas station when he was little. His parents and aunt & uncle went together, and each one assumed the other had him . No one discovered until the next stop 2 hours later that he was left at teh previous stop.
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