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Daycare Center and Family Home Forum>Am I Morally Or Legally Obligated?
frgsonmysox 12:56 PM 12-07-2011
I have a genetic defect called Ehlers-Danlos syndrome. It does cause some physical issues (joint dislocations, breaking of skin, massive amounts of pain). I live with it quite well. I have a few things I can no longer do, and I walk with a limp, but otherwise I've learned to overcome my disability. My wrists are fused (no mobility), and my elbow is permanently dislocated so it hangs at a 90 degree angle. My ankles tendon is no longer connected to the bone correctly so it causes me to walk with a limp. I am currently pregnant with my 5th child, so even with my issues I don't let them hinder my ability to be the best mom I can.

Because of the massive pain I am in a pain clinic. I take prescription narcotics on a controlled schedule, but I do take them daily around the clock. I don't act like someone on narcotics. I function completely normally. I've been on them for 3 years, and for someone with my disorder I'm actually on a low dosage (but high for the average person). I can drive fine, I can do everything normally.

Am I morally or legally obligated to tell my parents that I have to take narcotics? I worry that they'll think I'm stoned, when its really no different than someone taking allergy medication or any other medication they have to take to function normally.
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Heidi 01:04 PM 12-07-2011
If you would like to tell them anything, you might simply tell them that you have a medical condition that is controlled by medication. They do not need to know details. If it does not affect your ability to do your job, then it is your business.

Of course, you should have good emergency back up, just incase something goes wrong (a medication side effect, for instance?), and of course, the medications need to be super-safely stored. But, as a mother of 4+1, I am sure you have that covered.


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cheerfuldom 01:08 PM 12-07-2011
Why would they think you are stoned?

If you are fully capable, physically and mentally, of doing your job then why is it an issue? I assume you have to have some answer if they wonder about your limp or other visible disability but other than a direct question, I would not think you are obligated to offer up details on your condition.
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frgsonmysox 03:09 PM 12-07-2011
My husband feels I should tell them I have to take narcotics on a schedule, and I don't want them to think that narcotic usage means I'm perpetually stoned.

Having a back up is a good idea. I think telling them I'm on medication but not divulging what kind may be a good compromise.
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Unregistered 03:21 PM 12-07-2011
You may want to check with your licensing rules before you decide to open a daycare.
Some states require you to have a signed medical release that says you are medically able to care for children. You will have to divulge all your medical information to the state when you are getting licensed. I don't know if they can discriminate against your disability but you may want to check into it a little more. Sorry you have to deal with so much pain. It sounds like a lot to deal with.Take care of yourself.
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Kaddidle Care 03:22 PM 12-07-2011
I would check with licensing to see what you are required to disclose.
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frgsonmysox 04:38 PM 12-07-2011
With licensing I just have to have a physical done to ensure I'm healthy enough to care for children. The only caveat I found was it says I cannot consume any controlled substances during working hours. Since mine is a prescription that is closely monitored I'm not sure if it qualifies. I'm not taking it for the kicks.

I don't have to become licensed unless I take on more than 3 kids, and I only plan to take 3 for a while because I'll have 3 out of 5 of mine at home with me all day. I do plan to become licensed within a year of operating though.
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Ariana 05:09 PM 12-07-2011
I wouldn't disclose that I use "narcotics" (it makes it sound illegal!!), I would just disclose that I have a condition which creates pain and mobility issues and it is controlled through medication. As a parent I would want to know.
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Kaddidle Care 05:21 PM 12-07-2011
This exactly. I'm afraid it may deter some people but you would be upfront from the very beginning.

I have to admit that drugs of any kind scare me when it comes to caring for children. I found out a very good friend of mine who had watched my son one time was on heavy duty medication for anxiety, depression and OCD. I just thought she wasn't the brightest person in the world but she has a heart of gold.

Once I found out though, I never asked her to babysit again. We are still very good, close friends but I would never tell her that I was afraid to leave her with my boy.

When her meds are right, she's great but when they are off, she's off... her rocker.

I think some people will not take on your services. Others will see what a wonderful Mom you are and welcome you with open arms.
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MyAngels 08:59 PM 12-07-2011
Originally Posted by frgsonmysox:
With licensing I just have to have a physical done to ensure I'm healthy enough to care for children. The only caveat I found was it says I cannot consume any controlled substances during working hours. Since mine is a prescription that is closely monitored I'm not sure if it qualifies. I'm not taking it for the kicks.

I don't have to become licensed unless I take on more than 3 kids, and I only plan to take 3 for a while because I'll have 3 out of 5 of mine at home with me all day. I do plan to become licensed within a year of operating though.
You need to check out whether the drug(s) you are taking are listed on the Controlled Substances Act. That will help you determine whether it will be a problem with licensing and whether you should disclose to potential families that you are taking it.
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Meyou 04:36 AM 12-08-2011
As long as it's ok with licensing then I don't think you're obligated to tell families about your pain meds. I do think you're obligated to tell them about your condition however since there is a possibility it could affect the care you can offer.
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Solandia 05:34 AM 12-08-2011
I would not disclose medical issues with my dcparents, mine or my kids or my daycare kids. If it is okay with the state for licensing, and your doctor, then it is no one's business. If the kids' care is compromised in some way by your condition, then you should not be doing childcare at all. It is nit the same as being fit to care for your own children.... There is a much higher standard of care and liability.

But, I do not feel there is a moral or legal responsibilty to disclose, because it works both ways. The parents are not required to tell you about anything their children may have. For example, if my foster son was HIV+, I would not be allowed to disclose that info to the daycare or school.
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Meeko 07:58 AM 12-08-2011
Originally Posted by Solandia:
I would not disclose medical issues with my dcparents, mine or my kids or my daycare kids. If it is okay with the state for licensing, and your doctor, then it is no one's business. If the kids' care is compromised in some way by your condition, then you should not be doing childcare at all. It is nit the same as being fit to care for your own children.... There is a much higher standard of care and liability.

But, I do not feel there is a moral or legal responsibilty to disclose, because it works both ways. The parents are not required to tell you about anything their children may have. For example, if my foster son was HIV+, I would not be allowed to disclose that info to the daycare or school.
I agree. If licensing and your doctor see no reason for you to not do child care, then the parents do not need to know your personal business.

Any one of us may have a child in care who is HIV+. We have no way of knowing because the parents don't have to tell us.

The privacy goes both ways.
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nannyde 06:04 PM 03-23-2013
Originally Posted by frgsonmysox:
I have a genetic defect called Ehlers-Danlos syndrome. It does cause some physical issues (joint dislocations, breaking of skin, massive amounts of pain). I live with it quite well. I have a few things I can no longer do, and I walk with a limp, but otherwise I've learned to overcome my disability. My wrists are fused (no mobility), and my elbow is permanently dislocated so it hangs at a 90 degree angle. My ankles tendon is no longer connected to the bone correctly so it causes me to walk with a limp. I am currently pregnant with my 5th child, so even with my issues I don't let them hinder my ability to be the best mom I can.

Because of the massive pain I am in a pain clinic. I take prescription narcotics on a controlled schedule, but I do take them daily around the clock. I don't act like someone on narcotics. I function completely normally. I've been on them for 3 years, and for someone with my disorder I'm actually on a low dosage (but high for the average person). I can drive fine, I can do everything normally.

Am I morally or legally obligated to tell my parents that I have to take narcotics? I worry that they'll think I'm stoned, when its really no different than someone taking allergy medication or any other medication they have to take to function normally.
I was wondering how the narcotics you spoke of taking during two pregnancies and non stop breastfeeding affect infant growth in utero and breastmilk?
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EntropyControlSpecialist 06:10 PM 03-23-2013
Originally Posted by cheerfuldom:
Why would they think you are stoned?

If you are fully capable, physically and mentally, of doing your job then why is it an issue? I assume you have to have some answer if they wonder about your limp or other visible disability but other than a direct question, I would not think you are obligated to offer up details on your condition.
I agree!
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SilverSabre25 06:21 PM 03-23-2013
Originally Posted by nannyde:
I was wondering how the narcotics you spoke of taking during two pregnancies and non stop breastfeeding affect infant growth in utero and breastmilk?
Nanny, with all due respect, this thread is over a year old. I don't really think this needed dredged up. If you have something personal to bring up with the OP, perhaps the OT section, or better yet, a PM, would be a more appropriate place to do it.

Your question, now that I think about it, is also completely off the topic of this thread.
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nannyde 06:30 PM 03-23-2013
Originally Posted by SilverSabre25:
Nanny, with all due respect, this thread is over a year old. I don't really think this needed dredged up. If you have something personal to bring up with the OP, perhaps the OT section, or better yet, a PM, would be a more appropriate place to do it.

Your question, now that I think about it, is also completely off the topic of this thread.
Nah. The pitbull thread is over two years old and the op recently posted to that. Old threads...

I'm curious about the natural aspect of breastmilk and how that works when one is on daily medication like opiates.

I intended on crossposting it over to one of the breastfeeding threads but I don't know how to do that. Feel free to move it over.
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youretooloud 06:48 PM 03-23-2013
Why is the word "Vic*d!n" blocked? Before I realized it was an old thread, I posted the name Vic*d!n, and it came up as *******. I have the urge to waste an hour figuring out which words are blocked here.
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Starburst 06:53 PM 03-23-2013
Originally Posted by Kaddidle Care:
This exactly. I'm afraid it may deter some people but you would be upfront from the very beginning.

I have to admit that drugs of any kind scare me when it comes to caring for children. I found out a very good friend of mine who had watched my son one time was on heavy duty medication for anxiety, depression and OCD. I just thought she wasn't the brightest person in the world but she has a heart of gold.

Once I found out though, I never asked her to babysit again. We are still very good, close friends but I would never tell her that I was afraid to leave her with my boy.

When her meds are right, she's great but when they are off, she's off... her rocker.

I think some people will not take on your services. Others will see what a wonderful Mom you are and welcome you with open arms.
Thats what I am afraid of- that parents will ask me if I have had any emotional/mental health issues and won't enroll their kids and word would get out and I will be out of business. I was diagnosed with depression when I was a teen because of being bullied since I was little, BUT I was NEVER a threat to anyone. I was on anti-depressants and in therapy for about a year but my meds actually made me worse once because it made me like a zombie (sluggish, unmotivated, hard to remember things) then another medication I took years after ONLY because the doctor during a regular check up saw on my chart I had depression (I was actually really happy that day because I was starting a new job) made me have really bad anxiety which I still have even though I was only on that medication for 3 days because some medications can change the whole chemestry of your brain- perminantly. For that reason (having been on the brink of both extreames), I choose NOT to be on meds but I find that regular exercise, staying busy, and having goals helps me alot more. I have always had some type of OCD tendancies but never that bad until that medication. But just because someone has depression or anxiety doesn't mean that they are a danger to others. In fact most of my OCD/anxiety thoughts about daycare have to do with if their was a fire, an intruder, or another emergancy and the children were in danger (espesually after the whole Sandy Hook thing)- but I think that is normal with most people who work in this job and its good to keep in mind because that way your semi-prepared for what you would do.
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mamac 07:01 PM 03-23-2013
Originally Posted by youretooloud:
Why is the word "Vic*d!n" blocked? Before I realized it was an old thread, I posted the name Vic*d!n, and it came up as *******. I have the urge to waste an hour figuring out which words are blocked here.
Shall we start a new thread? I'm in!
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blandino 07:08 PM 03-23-2013
Originally Posted by nannyde:
I was wondering how the narcotics you spoke of taking during two pregnancies and non stop breastfeeding affect infant growth in utero and breastmilk?
http://breastfeeding.yoexpert.com/br...ing-20570.html

I, myself, was also curious. Clearly I have no idea about the specifics of OP's medications. This is just a general outline, and there is a section on "narcotic pain relievers". It says to avoid them when BF. However, I don't think a general blanket statement can cover all narcotics, so perhaps some are okay to take while BF. OP is clearly very knowledgeable about BF, so I would believe that she wouldn't be BF if there was any danger of the substances being passed on through breast milk. I would be interested to hear her thoughts & knowledge on the subject.
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Patches 07:10 PM 03-23-2013
Originally Posted by youretooloud:
Why is the word "Vic*d!n" blocked? Before I realized it was an old thread, I posted the name Vic*d!n, and it came up as *******. I have the urge to waste an hour figuring out which words are blocked here.
I did the same thing with my phone when I figured out that the talk to text censored certain words
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mamac 09:25 PM 03-23-2013
Originally Posted by blandino:
http://breastfeeding.yoexpert.com/br...ing-20570.html

I, myself, was also curious. Clearly I have no idea about the specifics of OP's medications. This is just a general outline, and there is a section on "narcotic pain relievers". It says to avoid them when BF. However, I don't think a general blanket statement can cover all narcotics, so perhaps some are okay to take while BF. OP is clearly very knowledgeable about BF, so I would believe that she wouldn't be BF if there was any danger of the substances being passed on through breast milk. I would be interested to hear her thoughts & knowledge on the subject.
I was curious, too, because I was on Percocet while pregnant with my first and I know that my doctors approved it because it wasn't taking it regularly. They actually told me it was better to take a narcotic to relieve pain than to take higher doses of OTC meds that would equal the strength of a narcotic. I was off the medication early in my pregnancy so it never became an issue for breastfeeding.

I did find a pretty good site that gives the milk/blood ratio of many drugs that can be used during pregnancy and which ones should be avoided.

http://www.medsafe.govt.nz/profs/pua.../lactation.htm


Edit: Funny how Vicodin is censored while Percocet isn't.
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blandino 09:29 PM 03-23-2013
Originally Posted by mamac:
I was curious, too, because I was on Percocet while pregnant with my first and I know that my doctors approved it because it wasn't taking it regularly. They actually told me it was better to take a narcotic to relieve pain than to take higher doses of OTC meds that would equal the strength of a narcotic. I was off the medication early in my pregnancy so it never became an issue for breastfeeding.

I did find a pretty good site that gives the milk/blood ratio of many drugs that can be used during pregnancy and which ones should be avoided.

http://www.medsafe.govt.nz/profs/pua.../lactation.htm


Edit: Funny how Vicod*n is censored while Percocet isn't.

Actually, after I posted I was reading more and apparently Percocet is the best/least likely narcotic to affect a fetus/breastmilk. So it is the most widely accepted option.
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Live and Learn 10:57 AM 03-24-2013
Nanny:
Frog seems like an educated mom who has been under close doctor supervision for years. This thread is old and to me it feels like you are dredging up old thread to make her, a nursing mom look bad. Please just let it go.
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Michael 11:47 AM 03-24-2013
Originally Posted by youretooloud:
Why is the word "Vic*d!n" blocked? Before I realized it was an old thread, I posted the name Vic*d!n, and it came up as *******. I have the urge to waste an hour figuring out which words are blocked here.
It was added because we use to get a lot of spam related to it. I've pretty much eliminated most spam so I can remove a lot of words that are currently censored.
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frgsonmysox 04:48 PM 03-27-2013
I appreciate all the support you guys

Nanny - I know why you pulled up this thread. Sorry, dear, nothing you say will scare me off. I've been a hard core debater for years, I'm extremely well educated, and I don't talk about **** without knowing what I'm talking about.

I am studying to BECOME an IBCLC (the equivalent of a doctor in the breastfeeding world). Do you really think I have no idea what meds I'm on and how they interact with my breastfeeding?

Also, I'm one of the leading "experts" in my area on EDS. I help to teach others about it. Again, I'm not stupid.

I'm monitored by a TEAM of doctors - an ob/gyn, an MFM, a pain doctor (who has been practicing for over 50 years), a Rhuematologist, a geneticist who is one of the leading EDS geneticists, I'm in contact with THE doctor on EDS - Bradly Tinkle. Seriously, look him up. He literally wrote the book on my condition. As well as a cardiologist, and my PCM.

I'm not going to disclose what meds I'm on. Not because I'm afraid to, but because of its none of your damn business. I've been on pain meds, every day, for nearly 5 years. I will be on pain medication for the rest of my life.

I have a child who is a certified genius. IQ tested in the 99%, he is extremely gifted intellectually. My daughter is right on par with her classmates in everything. My third son is quite advanced this year in Pre-k. Hes the youngest in his class by nearly 6 months, and one of the most advanced.

My two babies who have received pain meds via me.

- my 3 year old is delayed, slightly. Been in therapy since he was 6 months old, but thats because he HAS EDS, not because of pain meds. Mentally he is above average, physically he WAS behind but is now caught up to his peers. The only thing he is behind on now is speech.

- my youngest, who has received much stronger, harsher, and larger doses of pain medication since conception is above average in all areas except personal/social as at 13 months he doesn't dress himself. Otherwise he's fine.

So, nope, no crack babies or anything in my home.

Size wise? My husband is 5'3, I'm 5'4. We have extremely short and petite kids. But we are supposed to.

What else you got for me?
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nannyde 07:05 PM 03-27-2013
Originally Posted by frgsonmysox:
I appreciate all the support you guys

Nanny - I know why you pulled up this thread. Sorry, dear, nothing you say will scare me off. I've been a hard core debater for years, I'm extremely well educated, and I don't talk about **** without knowing what I'm talking about.

I am studying to BECOME an IBCLC (the equivalent of a doctor in the breastfeeding world). Do you really think I have no idea what meds I'm on and how they interact with my breastfeeding?

Also, I'm one of the leading "experts" in my area on EDS. I help to teach others about it. Again, I'm not stupid.

I'm monitored by a TEAM of doctors - an ob/gyn, an MFM, a pain doctor (who has been practicing for over 50 years), a Rhuematologist, a geneticist who is one of the leading EDS geneticists, I'm in contact with THE doctor on EDS - Bradly Tinkle. Seriously, look him up. He literally wrote the book on my condition. As well as a cardiologist, and my PCM.

I'm not going to disclose what meds I'm on. Not because I'm afraid to, but because of its none of your damn business. I've been on pain meds, every day, for nearly 5 years. I will be on pain medication for the rest of my life.

I have a child who is a certified genius. IQ tested in the 99%, he is extremely gifted intellectually. My daughter is right on par with her classmates in everything. My third son is quite advanced this year in Pre-k. Hes the youngest in his class by nearly 6 months, and one of the most advanced.

My two babies who have received pain meds via me.

- my 3 year old is delayed, slightly. Been in therapy since he was 6 months old, but thats because he HAS EDS, not because of pain meds. Mentally he is above average, physically he WAS behind but is now caught up to his peers. The only thing he is behind on now is speech.

- my youngest, who has received much stronger, harsher, and larger doses of pain medication since conception is above average in all areas except personal/social as at 13 months he doesn't dress himself. Otherwise he's fine.

So, nope, no crack babies or anything in my home.

Size wise? My husband is 5'3, I'm 5'4. We have extremely short and petite kids. But we are supposed to.

What else you got for me?
Okay I will ask again:
How do the powerful narcotics you spoke of taking during two pregnancies affect babies in utero and does it pass through breastmilk?

I don't need to know what you are taking. If it treats horrible pain as you said and its significant enough to make you question whether you should disclose to parents and the State in prelicensing physical exams then im safe to assume it is a controlled substance for a reason...

How does taking this medication affect your decision to do breastfeeding and even more significantly extended breastfeeding beyond the first year when an average or above average child like yours could consume significant nutrition via healthy foods such as organic whole foods without narcotics.

With your consistent emphasis on NATURAL im wondering how this would fit into your scheme. It just doesn't make sense. Why would you be willing to assume even a moderate risk when the option for your one and three year old could be no risk at all?
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just_peachy 05:52 AM 03-28-2013
Originally Posted by nannyde:
Okay I will ask again:
How do the powerful narcotics you spoke of taking during two pregnancies affect babies in utero and does it pass through breastmilk?

I don't need to know what you are taking. If it treats horrible pain as you said and its significant enough to make you question whether you should disclose to parents and the State in prelicensing physical exams then im safe to assume it is a controlled substance for a reason...

How does taking this medication affect your decision to do breastfeeding and even more significantly extended breastfeeding beyond the first year when an average or above average child like yours could consume significant nutrition via healthy foods such as organic whole foods without narcotics.

With your consistent emphasis on NATURAL im wondering how this would fit into your scheme. It just doesn't make sense. Why would you be willing to assume even a moderate risk when the option for your one and three year old could be no risk at all?
...unbelievable. This is a personal attack thinly disguised as "curiosity" or "concern." I can't believe this is allowed to go on.
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nannyde 06:09 AM 03-28-2013
Originally Posted by just_peachy:
...unbelievable. This is a personal attack thinly disguised as "curiosity" or "concern." I can't believe this is allowed to go on.
I'm trying to get to the heart of "it's about my baby and my babies right to nutrition"

I don't believe public breastfeeding with full breast exposure is about a babies nutrition.

I don't believe that exposing both breasts over the shirt during an interview while feeding a one year old and nearly three year old in front of total stranger day care parents is about nutrition.

I don't believe the photo of the woman tied to a tree branch hanging upside down with a baby at her breast was about nutrition.

I don't believe the Time magazine pic of the one month shy of four years of age kid standing on a stool to breast feed is about nutrition.

I KNOW my sons WAY too close encounter with a 40 year old womans breast at the Thanksgiving dinner table wasn't about a toddlers nutrition.

Here we have a concrete example where the nutrition of the breast milk is being questioned ESPECIALLY with children who are perfectly capable of eating a balanced healthy diet.

I'm asking... how is this about nutrition? How is about being natural?

I believe a lot of these issues are really truly about the MOTHER and what the MOTHER wants.

She wants to expose her breasts to unsuspecting strangers. She wants to promote her beliefs even at the expense or highly possible expense of others including but not limited to her own children.

All of this under the big umbrella of MY BAYYYYYYYYYYBEEEEE and my BAYBEEES right to EAT.

I'm suspicious and I'm questioning. The OP can answer if she wishes or not. To say it's personal is rediculous. One of the highest positions of exposing the world (litterally) to full breasts during feedings is to EDUCATE. So I'm asking for an education and not in a thinly disguised way. Right out there ... right in your face... just like what happened to my kid... Like it or not... I have the right to ask.
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EchoMom 06:15 AM 03-28-2013
I agree, this is disgusting and I really wish a mod would end it and tell Nan to knock it off. It really shouldn't be tolerated IMO.

I don't agree with everything that Froggy says and question some of her decisions and statements too. But I think your attitude Nan is atrocious. Either you truly don't understand how nasty you're being, in which case please take the feedback you're hearing as a cue to develop your social ettiquete. Or, you really are trying to be hurtful and superior and doing a poor job of hiding it.

It's all I can do to bite my tongue and not start saying what I really think about this so called "expert... daycare whisperer..."

However, Nan, I do agree that nursing during an interview is for shock value and totally uneccessary. I exclusively BF my son, never had a drop of formula, and never took a single bottle. But I certainly managed my time well enough to nurse before and after an interview. To say that a baby can't make it through a 30 min interview, even an hour interview, is ludicrous. And an older child especially can wait. And to nurse at every single interview is obsurd. And there are other ways a baby/toddler/child can be comforted if they're nervous during an interview.

But the fact that you keep pushing and pushing and pushing the issue, my goodness, move on!

I also don't like the full frontal no modesty nursing. To me nursing is a special thing, not a dirty thing, but a special thing, it's intimate (not sexually, but emotionally).
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just_peachy 06:18 AM 03-28-2013
It doesn't matter what the OP replies. Unless she concedes, you won't be satisfied. You have different views on the matter, that should be enough of a reason to drop it. No one is changing anyone's minds. And it IS personal, because to all of the above, my reply would be "so what."

It sounds like it's time for a heart-to-heart with your aunt or cousin or whoever traumatized you... er... your son so much at Thanksgiving, because this "kicking the cat" method of resolution is going nowhere.
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bunnyslippers 06:48 AM 03-28-2013
I am so disappointed to see this argument playing out. I respect all of you, and I feel sad that this has taken such a turn.
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nannyde 07:12 AM 03-28-2013
Originally Posted by just_peachy:
It doesn't matter what the OP replies. Unless she concedes, you won't be satisfied. You have different views on the matter, that should be enough of a reason to drop it. No one is changing anyone's minds. And it IS personal, because to all of the above, my reply would be "so what."

It sounds like it's time for a heart-to-heart with your aunt or cousin or whoever traumatized you... er... your son so much at Thanksgiving, because this "kicking the cat" method of resolution is going nowhere.
I don't want concession. I want to GET it and I don't.

I want to understand HOW we got to this point. I want to know where the line is.

Is the line nutrition?

Is the line the rights of one over the other?

Is there a medium... a way that most can be served... the greater good. Can you get breastfeeding education and acceptance without the IN YOUR FACE?

If the only way to get there is IN YOUR FACE then you can expect IN YOUR FACE response. You can expect that every point you make will be throughly vetted. I'm vetting nutrition in this thread. I'm vetting extended breast feeding. I'm vetting the extremes.

It's not personal. It's deep for sure... but not personal.

We all have told our personal stories to make our point and consistently with my position I have been told to educate my son. I need an education first.
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just_peachy 07:25 AM 03-28-2013
...if all you wanted an "education" the hostility would not be attached.

http://www.nursingfreedom.org/2010/0...d-witness.html
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Country Kids 07:37 AM 03-28-2013
Wonderful sights/insights on bf in public (history in a way):

http://thederangedhousewifeonline.bl...in-public.html

http://jezebel.com/5129536/milky-way...-breastfeeding

http://www.healthguidance.org/entry/...ic-Debate.html

There are so many more out there. Just look up the History Of Breast Feeding-
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Meyou 07:42 AM 03-28-2013
I'm actually interested in the answer from a personal perspective. I had complications with one pregnancy that required heavy narcotic use and I wasn't able to breastfeed afterwards because of it. I was also delivered 4 weeks early. I haven't had more children because of this complication and the narcotics involved so if there is a safer alternative I would love to hear about it.

Feel free to PM me OP if you want.
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youretooloud 07:43 AM 03-28-2013
Originally Posted by just_peachy:
...unbelievable. This is a personal attack thinly disguised as "curiosity" or "concern." I can't believe this is allowed to go on.
Absolutely.. I keep reading and wondering "Where's the lock?".
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Crystal 07:44 AM 03-28-2013
While there are often times that I do not agree with Nan, I have to say, this time I do. The OP has vehemently defended her position as an AP practicing, extended breastfeeding champion. Therefore, by doing so, she opens herself up to questioning when she posts about being heavily medicated on a daily basis. Whether or not an old thread should have been pulled up in order to discuss it is questionable, but, honestly, if you are going to be an "in your face" breastfeeder, then you should be prepared to defend yourself when questioned about the "probability" that narcotics are being passed to your children through your breastmilk. ESPECIALLY when you state that your sole purpose for breastfeeding is about your child's nutrition......if that's truly the case, then the OP would recognize that it would be BETTER nutrition, especially for her 3 year old, to be on a different "diet". Even the OP, in her most recent response, details the difference in her older children's development "pre-medicated" and her younger children's development after beginning her pain med schedule. There is a CLEAR difference, from what I read above, so WHY would one continue breastfeeding well into the third year of life if one KNOWS there have been significant differences in the development of the children????

The OP shared the info about the narcotics, therefore, I think it is fair game that Nan asked her about it.
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just_peachy 07:44 AM 03-28-2013
Originally Posted by Country Kids:
Wonderful sights/insights on bf in public (history in a way):

http://thederangedhousewifeonline.bl...in-public.html

http://jezebel.com/5129536/milky-way...-breastfeeding

http://www.healthguidance.org/entry/...ic-Debate.html

There are so many more out there. Just look up the History Of Breast Feeding-


I once read a story about a gorilla in captivity who had a baby and trampled it to death, after dealing with its "crying" over hunger.

The keepers realized that the mom gorilla had never learned how to nurse. They got her pregnant again (which I have a moral dilemma with, but still...)

This time they brought in nursing women every day to sit in front of the glass and just nurse. They sat there and nursed, that's it.

Lo and behold, when the gorilla had her second baby, she put it to her breast immediately, and all was well.

While nursing is "natural," it's also a learned behavior, biologically.
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littlemissmuffet 07:56 AM 03-28-2013
I think both Nan and Frogs have an air about them that they think their way is best and that's the end of it. The reality is, they both make great points and they both do what is best for themselves, their children, their families and their businesses - just as all of us do - and need to agree to disagree.

I do many things that would probably horrify many (if not all) of the posters on here. The difference is, I don't talk about these things because I know I would get flamed. There IS a big difference between educating people and just having a down right know-it-all attitude. There is also a difference between being curious and just being down right facetious. I think we're seeing both of these behaviors from both of these women.
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Country Kids 07:56 AM 03-28-2013
Originally Posted by Meyou:
I'm actually interested in the answer from a personal perspective. I had complications with one pregnancy that required heavy narcotic use and I wasn't able to breastfeed afterwards because of it. I was also delivered 4 weeks early. I haven't had more children because of this complication and the narcotics involved so if there is a safer alternative I would love to hear about it.

Feel free to PM me OP if you want.

I had a C-section with one of mine and that was the one baby that wouldn't nurse for anything. At 8 weeks I think they finally said to bottle feed because the baby was losing weight, not chunking up, and I was seriously nursing about every 1.5 hours even with supplimenting with a 2 oz bottle. I looked like one of the "Walking Dead" because of lack of sleep.

With the same baby I developed an infection from not all the placenta being removed. Talk about painful and once again more pain meds followed. This is all while I'm trying to nurse.

I 20 years later still say the baby wouldn't nurse because of all the medication I had right away and then having to have more because of the infection.

My baby was also born 3 weeks early.
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youretooloud 08:06 AM 03-28-2013
Originally Posted by Crystal:
While there are often times that I do not agree with Nan, I have to say, this time I do. The OP has vehemently defended her position as an AP practicing, extended breastfeeding champion. Therefore, by doing so, she opens herself up to questioning when she posts about being heavily medicated on a daily basis.
The point is, she drug up an old post, in order to make HER point. It's like bringing up an argument you had with your spouse or family member two years later, when that old argument has nothing to do with what's happening now.

She SHOULD have posted a new subject arguing her point about breast feeding.

I am not completely disagreeing with either side....but, THIS is tacky, and weird.
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just_peachy 08:12 AM 03-28-2013
Originally Posted by littlemissmuffet:
I think both Nan and Frogs have an air about them that they think their way is best and that's the end of it. The reality is, they both make great points and they both do what is best for themselves, their children, their families and their businesses - just as all of us do - and need to agree to disagree.

I do many things that would probably horrify many (if not all) of the posters on here. The difference is, I don't talk about these things because I know I would get flamed. There IS a big difference between educating people and just having a down right know-it-all attitude. There is also a difference between being curious and just being down right facetious. I think we're seeing both of these behaviors from both of these women.
I agree, whole heartedly! But in this little game, there is clearly a player playing offense and a player playing defense.
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Blackcat31 08:25 AM 03-28-2013
Originally Posted by youretooloud:
The point is, she drug up an old post, in order to make HER point. It's like bringing up an argument you had with your spouse or family member two years later, when that old argument has nothing to do with what's happening now.

She SHOULD have posted a new subject arguing her point about breast feeding.

I am not completely disagreeing with either side....but, THIS is tacky, and weird.
NEITHER Nan or Frogs has complained to a mod/admin about feeling offended or insulted or have asked for the thread to be closed.

I think since there ARE others here who want to be educated about one side or the other, then the conversation should continue as is.

When people start to automatically move away from anything heated, then everyone becomes a loser as no more information can be shared and that's sad.

Also, the minute Nan started a separate thread to discuss/debate this topic further, someone would have called that mean or insulting. Continuing a conversation within a thread that ignited the question in the first place was fine in my opinion.

Originally Posted by just_peachy:
I agree, whole heartedly! But in this little game, there is clearly a player playing offense and a player playing defense.
YOU may view it that way, but again, neither Nan or Frogs has contacted a mod or Admin to complain about the situation.

Neither Nan or Frogs has asked for the thread(s) to be closed or locked.
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Crystal 08:31 AM 03-28-2013
Originally Posted by youretooloud:
The point is, she drug up an old post, in order to make HER point. It's like bringing up an argument you had with your spouse or family member two years later, when that old argument has nothing to do with what's happening now.

She SHOULD have posted a new subject arguing her point about breast feeding.

I am not completely disagreeing with either side....but, THIS is tacky, and weird.
Oh, I agree about the old post, that's why I said " Whether or not an old thread should have been pulled up in order to discuss it is questionable, but, honestly, if you are going to be an "in your face" breastfeeder, then you should be prepared to defend yourself when questioned about the "probability" that narcotics are being passed to your children through your breastmilk
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frgsonmysox 08:31 AM 03-28-2013
Originally Posted by nannyde:
Okay I will ask again:
How do the powerful narcotics you spoke of taking during two pregnancies affect babies in utero and does it pass through breastmilk?

I don't need to know what you are taking. If it treats horrible pain as you said and its significant enough to make you question whether you should disclose to parents and the State in prelicensing physical exams then im safe to assume it is a controlled substance for a reason...

How does taking this medication affect your decision to do breastfeeding and even more significantly extended breastfeeding beyond the first year when an average or above average child like yours could consume significant nutrition via healthy foods such as organic whole foods without narcotics.

With your consistent emphasis on NATURAL im wondering how this would fit into your scheme. It just doesn't make sense. Why would you be willing to assume even a moderate risk when the option for your one and three year old could be no risk at all?
I answered your question. I didn't start taking these particular medications (and yes, they are heavy duty narcotics) without talking to multiple doctors, IBCLCs, and my childs pediatrician. Every single one of them agreed - the amount that enters my breastmilk is so minute, that it's STILL healthier and more nutritious than formula (which is full of a lot worse things than a minute dose of narcotics). I worked extremely closely with my OB, MFM, and pain doctor during each of my pregnancies to minimize risk and exposure to the baby, and never once had any of my babies born "addicted". They were born full term (except my oldest child, who lo and behold I wasn't on pain meds then - I was extremely careful about what I put in my body and he was still 5 weeks early. Correlation does not equal causation), a good weight for MY babies. In fact my last two births were two of my heaviest at 6 lbs 6 oz, and 6 lbs, 10.5 oz. My non-medicated babies were all 5 lbers.

Do you really think my 3 year old doesn't eat FOOD? Even my 13 month old eats solids at times. Nursing is an additional food, and a huge comfort to my 3 year old, and my 13 month olds main source of comfort and food.

As for the bolded - I don't get much of a choice when it comes to pain meds. The ones I'm on I'm on because I'm nursing and because we want another child. There are better meds I could be on, ones that would work a lot more effectively, but we made the choice to not use those because they present greater risk to the child. So yes, I made THAT choice. My other two choices could be

1) Not take any pain medication. Oh how I would love that to be a possibility. Truly. You have no idea how flipping mind numbing being in massive pain every day is. How much attention it takes. I have to weight everything I do with how much I'm going to have to pay for it later. I've already had two wrists fused, my elbow is permanently bent and dislocated (and has been for nearly 5 years), my ankles are beginning to go and may need to be fused, and just this year alone my hips, knees, toes, shoulders, and fingers have gotten worse. I do everything I can to slow the progression, to overcome my obstacles, and to be an inspiration to others who also live with this absolutely awful disorder. Every day I dislocate or sublex multiple joints. As a former nurse you should be aware of how painful that is. Do you think you could live like that, be FUNCTIONAL, without pain medication?

2) Not nurse. Do you think we didn't discuss this? We talked to numerous DOCTORS nanny. They all said the same thing - nursing while taking these narcotics is safer and better for our child than formula. Have you looked at the ingredient list in formula? I may not be as old as you are nanny, but I think thats a good thing. You are too stuck in your ways and refuse to see how things have changed. I'm studying to help other women be able to breastfeed. Part of that is knowing medications that are okay, pretty okay, and not okay with nursing. At the end of the day, this is still better. And my kids pediatricians see no issues with any of the kids that would be a result of this. When YOU study breastfeeding please then come back and keep asking me the same questions I've answered now at least twice. This is beyond wanting to know information. You aren't used to someone standing up to you, I get it. You should get over it though.

Originally Posted by just_peachy:
...unbelievable. This is a personal attack thinly disguised as "curiosity" or "concern." I can't believe this is allowed to go on.
I suspect because it's nanny.

Originally Posted by nannyde:
I'm trying to get to the heart of "it's about my baby and my babies right to nutrition"

I don't believe public breastfeeding with full breast exposure is about a babies nutrition.

I don't believe that exposing both breasts over the shirt during an interview while feeding a one year old and nearly three year old in front of total stranger day care parents is about nutrition.

I don't believe the photo of the woman tied to a tree branch hanging upside down with a baby at her breast was about nutrition.

I don't believe the Time magazine pic of the one month shy of four years of age kid standing on a stool to breast feed is about nutrition.

I KNOW my sons WAY too close encounter with a 40 year old womans breast at the Thanksgiving dinner table wasn't about a toddlers nutrition.

Here we have a concrete example where the nutrition of the breast milk is being questioned ESPECIALLY with children who are perfectly capable of eating a balanced healthy diet.

I'm asking... how is this about nutrition? How is about being natural?

I believe a lot of these issues are really truly about the MOTHER and what the MOTHER wants.

She wants to expose her breasts to unsuspecting strangers. She wants to promote her beliefs even at the expense or highly possible expense of others including but not limited to her own children.

All of this under the big umbrella of MY BAYYYYYYYYYYBEEEEE and my BAYBEEES right to EAT.

I'm suspicious and I'm questioning. The OP can answer if she wishes or not. To say it's personal is rediculous. One of the highest positions of exposing the world (litterally) to full breasts during feedings is to EDUCATE. So I'm asking for an education and not in a thinly disguised way. Right out there ... right in your face... just like what happened to my kid... Like it or not... I have the right to ask.
You aren't me, and you aren't my kids, so who are YOU to tell ME what is about nutrition?!


Originally Posted by Crystal:
While there are often times that I do not agree with Nan, I have to say, this time I do. The OP has vehemently defended her position as an AP practicing, extended breastfeeding champion. Therefore, by doing so, she opens herself up to questioning when she posts about being heavily medicated on a daily basis. Whether or not an old thread should have been pulled up in order to discuss it is questionable, but, honestly, if you are going to be an "in your face" breastfeeder, then you should be prepared to defend yourself when questioned about the "probability" that narcotics are being passed to your children through your breastmilk. ESPECIALLY when you state that your sole purpose for breastfeeding is about your child's nutrition......if that's truly the case, then the OP would recognize that it would be BETTER nutrition, especially for her 3 year old, to be on a different "diet". Even the OP, in her most recent response, details the difference in her older children's development "pre-medicated" and her younger children's development after beginning her pain med schedule. There is a CLEAR difference, from what I read above, so WHY would one continue breastfeeding well into the third year of life if one KNOWS there have been significant differences in the development of the children????

The OP shared the info about the narcotics, therefore, I think it is fair game that Nan asked her about it.
What is the clear difference? There is actually NO difference, unless you mean speech delays, which all of my kids have had.

Originally Posted by just_peachy:


I once read a story about a gorilla in captivity who had a baby and trampled it to death, after dealing with its "crying" over hunger.

The keepers realized that the mom gorilla had never learned how to nurse. They got her pregnant again (which I have a moral dilemma with, but still...)

This time they brought in nursing women every day to sit in front of the glass and just nurse. They sat there and nursed, that's it.

Lo and behold, when the gorilla had her second baby, she put it to her breast immediately, and all was well.

While nursing is "natural," it's also a learned behavior, biologically.
I always tell new moms this. Nursing is natural but it's not easy. It's like sex. Sex is natural, but if you based your entire sexual experience off of your first time you'd probably be celibate. It takes time, and effort, and a lot of work to make nursing work, and then it is easy and second nature.
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Crystal 08:32 AM 03-28-2013
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
NEITHER Nan or Frogs has complained to a mod/admin about feeling offended or insulted or have asked for the thread to be closed.

I think since there ARE others here who want to be educated about one side or the other, then the conversation should continue as is.

When people start to automatically move away from anything heated, then everyone becomes a loser as no more information can be shared and that's sad.

Also, the minute Nan started a separate thread to discuss/debate this topic further, someone would have called that mean or insulting. Continuing a conversation within a thread that ignited the question in the first place was fine in my opinion. Yeah, been there, done that. Had Nan started a new thread it would have been an all out war!


YOU may view it that way, but again, neither Nan or Frogs has contacted a mod or Admin to complain about the situation.

Neither Nan or Frogs has asked for the thread(s) to be closed or locked.

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frgsonmysox 08:36 AM 03-28-2013
For the record - I've been someone who enjoys a debate, and a good conversation, as well as someone who doesn't back down for 6 years now. Ever since I stopped letting people walk all over me, change my mind FOR me, and tell me how I should and shouldn't be I have become extremely devoted to not backing down.

I won't contact a mod, because I am a big girl and I can hold my own. I do think nanny wants nothing more than to try to insult, belittle, or devalue my opinion on things. I also think nanny knows she can get away with it.
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MyAngels 08:37 AM 03-28-2013
Originally Posted by littlemissmuffet:
I think both Nan and Frogs have an air about them that they think their way is best and that's the end of it. The reality is, they both make great points and they both do what is best for themselves, their children, their families and their businesses - just as all of us do - and need to agree to disagree.


Agreed!

Originally Posted by youretooloud:
The point is, she drug up an old post, in order to make HER point. It's like bringing up an argument you had with your spouse or family member two years later, when that old argument has nothing to do with what's happening now.
Unfortunately, when you post something on the internet it lives forever. Once you post something you have to live with it, well, forever.
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Willow 08:50 AM 03-28-2013
Originally Posted by littlemissmuffet:
I think both Nan and Frogs have an air about them that they think their way is best and that's the end of it. The reality is, they both make great points and they both do what is best for themselves, their children, their families and their businesses - just as all of us do - and need to agree to disagree.

I do many things that would probably horrify many (if not all) of the posters on here. The difference is, I don't talk about these things because I know I would get flamed. There IS a big difference between educating people and just having a down right know-it-all attitude. There is also a difference between being curious and just being down right facetious. I think we're seeing both of these behaviors from both of these women.

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frgsonmysox 08:51 AM 03-28-2013
Originally Posted by MyAngels:


Agreed!



Unfortunately, when you post something on the internet it lives forever. Once you post something you have to live with it, well, forever.
this is true. Things live on the internet forever, and in fact if you google my screen name you'll find a lot under it! I have no issues with being truthful or upfront about myself personally. That doesn't mean when someone drags it back up they aren't being a bitch doing it.

I come across a lot more aggressive and loud spoken online than I do in person. My friends used to always tell me that I was too much of a pushover, let people walk all over me, and I avoided conflict like the plague. I stopped doing that after I got hurt time after time. So I may seem aggressive but I don't believe there is only ONE way to do anything. I have never argued that someone shouldn't do something, just to research it, why *I* don't do it, or to inform the parents first (CIO). Never once did I say anyone was evil or awful for CIO, but I am told time and time again how stupid AP is, and how no one could possibly do it long term. So when I react to those comments it's to show that there IS another side. This board is way to one sided, and it needs more people who think differently about things and are willing to say so!
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Willow 09:01 AM 03-28-2013
Originally Posted by frgsonmysox:
This board is way to one sided, and it needs more people who think differently about things and are willing to say so!

I couldn't disagree more, and have no clue how you've drawn that conclusion.

There are plenty of APer's here. Plenty who breastfeed (most? and the ones who were physically unable still acknowledge the value). Plenty who co-sleep/slept. Plenty who don't believe in CIO. Plenty who are baby wearers. Plenty who cloth diaper (several I've seen that even carry that over to their daycare kids). Plenty who homeschool. Plenty who feed organic/veggie. There are loads of crunchies in general here and we all discuss those issues frequently.

For whatever reason you keep pointing out you're such a rarity by doing and touching on topics no one else will touch, and I don't understand why
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frgsonmysox 09:08 AM 03-28-2013
I'm not saying I'm a rarity by talking about these, but I see a lot of people who feel the same way I do get driven off and stop posting here. These people have told me that they feel this board is one sided as well. I'm not the only one who thinks it. I think this board needs to be more diverse so people DON'T get scared off from it, regardless of what they believe.
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bunnyslippers 09:08 AM 03-28-2013
As a person who also lives with a chronic illness that requires strong and toxic medication, I can understand the impact medication has on your choices in regards to child bearing and nursing. It is a tremendously difficult decision to make, and it is something that requires a great deal of diligence and education.

With that being said, I need to emphasize that choosing formula for your child is not a BAD choice. I was never given the option of breast feeding, due to my own medical issues and medications. Whenever I discussed my desire to breast feed with doctors or specialists, I was assured repeatedly that formula-fed infants are just fine. My two boys are healthy, strong, smart young men. They were not harmed by formula, and did not suffer because I did not breast feed. When the pro-breast feeding crowd gets going, I find myself feeling insulted. I have had pro-breast feeding mothers get very offensive with me because I did not breastfeed. These women did not know the reason I did not breast feed, and often lectured me as to what I was doing to harm my baby. For me, that was hurtful and mean. I did what I personally HAD to do for my family. Without my toxic medications, I would die.

Please be kind to one another. Heated debates are fine, and important. But please also remember that every person makes choices based on their own personal needs and desires, and that now everyone feels the same about every issue. Don't cram your agenda, whatever it is, down people's throats. You never know what has led to a personal decision.
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Holiday Park 09:13 AM 03-28-2013
Nannyd so let me get this straight ...
You were saying toddler (or lets go as far as talking about a preschooler) consuming plenty of very healthy foods (like any other non nursing child's healthy diet) AND ALSO happens to consume breast milk has a less healthy nutrition compared to the child who has the same diet but without breastmilk? The breast milk is a healthy suppliment full of good stuff!
If anything, that child who is drinking mommies (or even donor milk) milk is at a better advantage!
I am defending breastmilk as being healthy for any childs age . This is coming from someone who disagrees with the OP posts and who is not ap and usually enjoys and agrees with nannyd's posts. As a lsctavist and extended breastfeeding advocate I cant sit back and not say anything. I am still nursing my 18 month old. Its not as often and he eats full meals of table food and everything but if he wants to nurse until he is 4, that is ok by me! same for if we are in public . people need to be more educated on the nutrtional value of breastmilk. If there are problems and the mom tries her best and fails I AM glsd formuls is there as a last resort. For the Person above who had her placenta still inside het, after a c section,and the baby was born early::
Having part of the placenta left , was your biggest reason you couldnt make milk. The baby being pre mature was probably equal of an impact due to very likely having latch issues,low mudcle tone,tounge tie,
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Evansmom 09:17 AM 03-28-2013
Originally Posted by frgsonmysox:
I'm not saying I'm a rarity by talking about these, but I see a lot of people who feel the same way I do get driven off and stop posting here. These people have told me that they feel this board is one sided as well. I'm not the only one who thinks it. I think this board needs to be more diverse so people DON'T get scared off from it, regardless of what they believe.


Why do you think my post count is so low? I'm afraid of commenting on things on this board bc I've seen other who share my view get bullied off. And im bit the only one. Not everyone has super thick skin like some of the rest of us.
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Willow 09:19 AM 03-28-2013
Originally Posted by frgsonmysox:
I'm not saying I'm a rarity by talking about these, but I see a lot of people who feel the same way I do get driven off and stop posting here. These people have told me that they feel this board is one sided as well. I'm not the only one who thinks it. I think this board needs to be more diverse so people DON'T get scared off from it, regardless of what they believe.

See now that's just weird to me.

I don't see how I am any different than you as a mother (with the exception of being physically unable to nurse my children for an extended period of time due to hormonal imbalances) and I've never gotten that impression.

There has been debate as to what extent AP can be carried out in a daycare setting, and discussions about how when carried out in extreme and inappropriate ways how it can be detrimental to a child's development but other than that I've never felt any sort of chastised or alone in my beliefs here.


I often see you make remarks like your above in threads like you are totally alone in your belief system, but where there is clearly already expressed and existing support for the exact same things you're saying.

I wonder if it's just a matter of perception that you're missing that you're largely preaching to the choir here?
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Willow 09:23 AM 03-28-2013
Originally Posted by Evansmom:


Why do you think my post count is so low? I'm afraid of commenting on things on this board bc I've seen other who share my view get bullied off. And im bit the only one. Not everyone has super thick skin like some of the rest of us.

I'm genuinely curious what beliefs you're afraid of expressing and commenting on?


If people are educated and confident in their choices I don't understand the hesitation. If someone doesn't like what you have to say so what! You are still entitled to speak your peace and explain your reasoning like anyone else can!
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Holiday Park 09:26 AM 03-28-2013
the drugs, and other factors,the odds were against you. I understand you had to do what you had to. But please know (you can researchthis yourself) it wasnt the c srction tself or drugs (althou pgh the are factors) but the *placenta* situation that did . Ive had 4 sections and 2 babies with latch issues ,one was in icu. the biggest reason my supply goes down is not enough demand. . I agree, there nee be more education on how t breastfeed and deal with other issues to make it work like with surgery,icu etc etc
Thats why I am glad to see more education on this.
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just_peachy 09:31 AM 03-28-2013
Originally Posted by Willow:
I'm genuinely curious what beliefs you're afraid of expressing and commenting on?


If people are educated and confident in their choices I don't understand the hesitation. If someone doesn't like what you have to say so what! You are still entitled to speak your peace and explain your reasoning like anyone else can!
I'm new to the forum, but no rookie to online groups. Here is what I've seen since I joined: social blacklisting of those with opposing views.

The threads they start are commented on less, or commented on with "constructive criticism." Their comments are rarely acknowledged or quoted, even when there is a question attached or an extremely relevant piece of information included.

They often "kill threads." No one comments after they comment.

But I think it's more about the hierarchy and seniority in play than it is belief systems. And it's not just me that feels this way, I know that for a fact.

Generally speaking, experience breeds arrogance 'round these parts.
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Blackcat31 09:35 AM 03-28-2013
Originally Posted by just_peachy:
I'm new to the forum, but no rookie to online groups. Here is what I've seen since I joined: social blacklisting of those with opposing views.

The threads they start are commented on less, or commented on with "constructive criticism." Their comments are rarely acknowledged or quoted, even when there is a question attached or an extremely relevant piece of information included.

They often "kill threads." No one comments after they comment.

But I think it's more about the hierarchy and seniority in play than it is belief systems. And it's not just me that feels this way, I know that for a fact.

Generally speaking, experience breeds arrogance 'round these parts.

Seriously?!? Now I am offended by that. ^^^
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frgsonmysox 09:39 AM 03-28-2013
Originally Posted by bunnyslippers:
As a person who also lives with a chronic illness that requires strong and toxic medication, I can understand the impact medication has on your choices in regards to child bearing and nursing. It is a tremendously difficult decision to make, and it is something that requires a great deal of diligence and education.

With that being said, I need to emphasize that choosing formula for your child is not a BAD choice. I was never given the option of breast feeding, due to my own medical issues and medications. Whenever I discussed my desire to breast feed with doctors or specialists, I was assured repeatedly that formula-fed infants are just fine. My two boys are healthy, strong, smart young men. They were not harmed by formula, and did not suffer because I did not breast feed. When the pro-breast feeding crowd gets going, I find myself feeling insulted. I have had pro-breast feeding mothers get very offensive with me because I did not breastfeed. These women did not know the reason I did not breast feed, and often lectured me as to what I was doing to harm my baby. For me, that was hurtful and mean. I did what I personally HAD to do for my family. Without my toxic medications, I would die.

Please be kind to one another. Heated debates are fine, and important. But please also remember that every person makes choices based on their own personal needs and desires, and that now everyone feels the same about every issue. Don't cram your agenda, whatever it is, down people's throats. You never know what has led to a personal decision.
I have no issues with people who use formula. I even used formula before, with my oldest. I understand its need, and its great and a huge life saver for many many moms and babies. For ME it was a choice I had to make, and all of MY doctors encouraged me to nurse. I do have doctors who feel similar to how I do on things, as I hope all people do, so that may be a factor.

I'm sorry that you too are on medications. It's not fun. It sucks to think how much our life depends on it.

Originally Posted by Willow:
See now that's just weird to me.

I don't see how I am any different than you as a mother (with the exception of being physically unable to nurse my children for an extended period of time due to hormonal imbalances) and I've never gotten that impression.

There has been debate as to what extent AP can be carried out in a daycare setting, and discussions about how when carried out in extreme and inappropriate ways how it can be detrimental to a child's development but other than that I've never felt any sort of chastised or alone in my beliefs here.


I often see you make remarks like your above in threads like you are totally alone in your belief system, but where there is clearly already expressed and existing support for the exact same things you're saying.

I wonder if it's just a matter of perception that you're missing that you're largely preaching to the choir here?
If I'm preaching to the choir, GREAT! But with nanny going after my posts, as well as others who agree with her - and lets face it Nanny is one of the most outspoken and "loudest" people on this board. So I may be wrong, there may be more AP people, but when the loud and bullyish people are the ones who are speaking the most and the loudest it doesnt' feel that way. So far there has not been a single thread that had to do with AP practices that wasn't pounced on. I was flabbergasted at how much animosity there was by telling a provider she should notify the parents before CIO.
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Crystal 09:39 AM 03-28-2013
Originally Posted by Holiday Park:
Nannyd so let me get this straight ...
You were saying toddler (or lets go as far as talking about a preschooler) consuming plenty of very healthy foods (like any other non nursing child's healthy diet) AND ALSO happens to consume breast milk has a less healthy nutrition compared to the child who has the same diet but without breastmilk?
The breast milk is a healthy suppliment full of good stuff!
If anything, that child who is drinking mommies (or even donor milk) milk is at a better advantage!
I am defending breastmilk as being healthy for any childs age . This is coming from someone who disagrees with the OP posts and who is not ap and usually enjoys and agrees with nannyd's posts. As a lsctavist and extended breastfeeding advocate I cant sit back and not say anything. I am still nursing my 18 month old. Its not as often and he eats full meals of table food and everything but if he wants to nurse until he is 4, that is ok by me! same for if we are in public . people need to be more educated on the nutrtional value of breastmilk. If there are problems and the mom tries her best and fails I AM glsd formuls is there as a last resort. For the Person above who had her placenta still inside het, after a c section,and the baby was born early::
Having part of the placenta left , was your biggest reason you couldnt make milk. The baby being pre mature was probably equal of an impact due to very likely having latch issues,low mudcle tone,tounge tie,
I haven't seen anything from Nan that inidicates she feels the way you say.....which I put in bold above....
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just_peachy 09:40 AM 03-28-2013
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
Seriously?!? Now I am offended by that. ^^^
*generally speaking, my perception has been that experience breeds arrogance, with several fantastic exceptions.

I base this off of the frequent "kids these days/society these days" comments, in regards to both providers and actual children.
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Crystal 09:45 AM 03-28-2013
Originally Posted by just_peachy:
I'm new to the forum, but no rookie to online groups. Here is what I've seen since I joined: social blacklisting of those with opposing views. If this were true, I'd have been "blacklisted" a LONG time ago! Seriously, like from day one. But, I've been around for awhile now. I guess it's one of those, "if you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen" situations.


The threads they start are commented on less, or commented on with "constructive criticism." Their comments are rarely acknowledged or quoted, even when there is a question attached or an extremely relevant piece of information included.I think the "constructive criticism" you speak of is EXACTLY that. It is advice given from those who have been at this for YEARS trying to help out rookies in the field. Not always the case, for sure, but generally speaking, it is. And, I think the lack of responses is often times due to the fact that many of the issues have been discussed multiple times, in which case Michael or Blackcat or another member will point them to a thread that might answer their questions.

They often "kill threads." No one comments after they comment.

But I think it's more about the hierarchy and seniority in play than it is belief systems. And it's not just me that feels this way, I know that for a fact. Certainly. But, for those who have dedicated a LOT of time here to be of assistance to others, well they tend to be valued and respected members. It's no different IRL.

Generally speaking, experience breeds arrogance 'round these parts.
And there ya go.
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Willow 10:05 AM 03-28-2013
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
Seriously?!? Now I am offended by that. ^^^

See now I'm not offended so much as flabbergasted, because in my view things have been exactly the opposite - "I have no kids and haven't done childcare a day in my life but I'm going to come in here and tell you exactly what you're doing wrong" business going on lately.

Of course people are going to go on the defensive about that, as they should.

It's rude as all get out and I can't imagine coming off like that to any of my colleagues regardless of their experience level.

New or unregistered posters have been going off on tangents about how stupid, mean and or lazy veteran posters are when (although we have our beefs sometimes (which we quickly rebound and move on from)) anything is said in defense of those attacks all of a sudden they're "scared" or intimidated claiming they can't voice their opinions......seriously? Give me a break.

If you're going to dish out the nastiness you better be prepared to defend it.
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just_peachy 10:13 AM 03-28-2013
Originally Posted by Willow:

New or unregistered posters have been going off on tangents about how stupid, mean and or lazy veteran posters are when.
I haven't witnessed any of that. That WOULD be inappropriate.

There's definitely a divide between the "old school" and the "new school." I have seen more negative spouted about how much things have changed than positive. It's the normal progression of life. Every generation feels that way. It's just rearing its ugly head on these forums. I think the "new school" would feel a lot less hostile if they felt like they were being heard. Even a "I see your point, but I disagree." It doesn't happen that way, not even close. So yes, defensiveness absolutely arises. It's a shame, we're all guilty, hopefully we can all admit to that.
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allsmiles 10:18 AM 03-28-2013
Originally Posted by bunnyslippers:
As a person who also lives with a chronic illness that requires strong and toxic medication, I can understand the impact medication has on your choices in regards to child bearing and nursing. It is a tremendously difficult decision to make, and it is something that requires a great deal of diligence and education.

With that being said, I need to emphasize that choosing formula for your child is not a BAD choice. I was never given the option of breast feeding, due to my own medical issues and medications. Whenever I discussed my desire to breast feed with doctors or specialists, I was assured repeatedly that formula-fed infants are just fine. My two boys are healthy, strong, smart young men. They were not harmed by formula, and did not suffer because I did not breast feed. When the pro-breast feeding crowd gets going, I find myself feeling insulted. I have had pro-breast feeding mothers get very offensive with me because I did not breastfeed. These women did not know the reason I did not breast feed, and often lectured me as to what I was doing to harm my baby. For me, that was hurtful and mean. I did what I personally HAD to do for my family. Without my toxic medications, I would die.

Please be kind to one another. Heated debates are fine, and important. But please also remember that every person makes choices based on their own personal needs and desires, and that now everyone feels the same about every issue. Don't cram your agenda, whatever it is, down people's throats. You never know what has led to a personal decision.



This is so on point bunny.. i think the WAY ppl respond is what makes things worse..i think for the most part ppl dont mind a difference of opinion between forum members..its only when that different opinion is all of a sudden perceived as stupid or evil that it gets out of hand.. Im sure alot of ppl have had successful children and dcks whether they breastfeed or not or AP parent or not.. no need to prepare a case for those issues here??
i still can have a great discussion about whatever the topic is without trying to demonize everyone that doesnt believe the same thing.. Im sorry you guys feel your opinions are treated unfairly.. i am alot more strict in my direction of children and that puts me in a minority as well i think, but it only means that when it comes to THOSE kinds of topics, i hold my tongue, i dont have to be apart of EVERY discussion, especially when i know i cant be of any help, only starting an arguement.. i still feel like i have a place here if nothing else but to laugh LOL
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Crystal 10:20 AM 03-28-2013
Originally Posted by just_peachy:
I haven't witnessed any of that. That WOULD be inappropriate.

There's definitely a divide between the "old school" and the "new school." I have seen more negative spouted about how much things have changed than positive. It's the normal progression of life. Every generation feels that way. It's just rearing its ugly head on these forums.
I think, for the most part, everyone is pretty respectful of each other. Some of us just speak louder than others. I know I, as a veteran provider, have learned things from newer providers....I have even made a couple of program changes. BUT, I have also learned from veteran providers too, and would certainly look to someone who has been at it for a long time FIRST.

What you refer to with how things have changed over the years in regards to children AND parent's behavior. It's the truth.......children are less capable of "coping" and exhibiting socially acceptable behavior than previous generations and parents are coddling much more than previous generations. I see it with each new group I get......it seems with every new group comes a whole new set of behaviors that I have not previously encountered in 16 years of working with children and families.
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MissAnn 10:20 AM 03-28-2013
Originally Posted by bunnyslippers:
As a person who also lives with a chronic illness that requires strong and toxic medication, I can understand the impact medication has on your choices in regards to child bearing and nursing. It is a tremendously difficult decision to make, and it is something that requires a great deal of diligence and education.

With that being said, I need to emphasize that choosing formula for your child is not a BAD choice. I was never given the option of breast feeding, due to my own medical issues and medications. Whenever I discussed my desire to breast feed with doctors or specialists, I was assured repeatedly that formula-fed infants are just fine. My two boys are healthy, strong, smart young men. They were not harmed by formula, and did not suffer because I did not breast feed. When the pro-breast feeding crowd gets going, I find myself feeling insulted. I have had pro-breast feeding mothers get very offensive with me because I did not breastfeed. These women did not know the reason I did not breast feed, and often lectured me as to what I was doing to harm my baby. For me, that was hurtful and mean. I did what I personally HAD to do for my family. Without my toxic medications, I would die.

Please be kind to one another. Heated debates are fine, and important. But please also remember that every person makes choices based on their own personal needs and desires, and that now everyone feels the same about every issue. Don't cram your agenda, whatever it is, down people's throats. You never know what has led to a personal decision.
Hey Bunnyslippers, I wanted to breast feed my first child so much it hurt! Well, we adopted her. We had 3 days notice to pick her up in another state. I had been pumping my breasts for months in anticipation. No milk, but I was still hopeful. Well, a 2.5 month old bottle fed baby does not want a boob! LOL. So we bottle fed and I still felt like a failure!

We are just too hard on ourselves. Love your babies and teach them awesome things and most of all.....learn awesomeness from them. It's not all about how they are fed.

I earned brownie points later by homeschooling her! LOL
Oh, and then when owe had my son I nursed him till 2 mainly in private but if in public I covered up. I didn't need to prove any points. Its easy to cover up!
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My3cents 10:38 AM 03-28-2013
Originally Posted by just_peachy:
I'm new to the forum, but no rookie to online groups. Here is what I've seen since I joined: social blacklisting of those with opposing views.

The threads they start are commented on less, or commented on with "constructive criticism." Their comments are rarely acknowledged or quoted, even when there is a question attached or an extremely relevant piece of information included.

They often "kill threads." No one comments after they comment.

But I think it's more about the hierarchy and seniority in play than it is belief systems. And it's not just me that feels this way, I know that for a fact.

Generally speaking, experience breeds arrogance 'round these parts.
This is your view. OK- I don't agree

I have tons of experience and years in this field- but I don't fall into the cookie cutter mold. I often throw in my 3cents and more- I don't expect after I have said something, that does not agree with someone else, for them to be buddy buddy with me. Not how the real world works. It takes people a little time to come around. Some never do. That is ok. Sometimes I stand strongly on what I believe in and it just doesn't mesh with someone else- that is ok. I think threads are killed from lack of interest from the peanut galleries. Sometimes all that can be said is said. I also think looking up to our Seniors is not a bad theory in itself. I also feel learning new is good too. But..... some of the new stuff out there is lacking good common sense because someone that did not have this in the first place ruined it for everyone else--- I just strive for a balance for what works for me. If I hurt someone I try to own up to it, but if I have a passion for what I believe in sometimes I am willing to walk away with feelings at hand. I can't please everyone but I can try to get my point across as nicely as possible. I fall short at times- What is it you are looking for in this piece? More information for what? What am I missing here that made this post come about?
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MyAngels 10:41 AM 03-28-2013
Originally Posted by just_peachy:
Generally speaking, experience breeds arrogance 'round these parts.
Speaking of arrogance...
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just_peachy 10:42 AM 03-28-2013
Originally Posted by Crystal:
I think, for the most part, everyone is pretty respectful of each other. Some of us just speak louder than others. I know I, as a veteran provider, have learned things from newer providers....I have even made a couple of program changes. BUT, I have also learned from veteran providers too, and would certainly look to someone who has been at it for a long time FIRST.

What you refer to with how things have changed over the years in regards to children AND parent's behavior. It's the truth.......children are less capable of "coping" and exhibiting socially acceptable behavior than previous generations and parents are coddling much more than previous generations. I see it with each new group I get......it seems with every new group comes a whole new set of behaviors that I have not previously encountered in 16 years of working with children and families.
Right, that's what I'm saying, every generation has said the same thing, it's quoted all over the place. And I don't completely disagree about kids' behavioral changes, but I think there's more at play than "parenting styles." Food, nutrition, an early focus on schooling, two parents out of the home, "broken" homes, debt, the economy, environmental pollutants...

I believe that if we took away all external stresses, and allowed parents to just PARENT, the method or style would be almost moot, obviously abuse excluded. I think "love is all you need" applies to the parent/child relationship the most!

I don't want to create an even greater divide, but I have also read a lot of negative comments about parents who work outside the home. It sucks that so many HAVE to. Today's economy is so different, things happened, choices were made, and the Gen-Yers and beyond are reeling from them. Every generation is DIFFERENT. With different priorities, different beliefs, different sources of stress, different struggles, different advantages. And I think that's okay. It's the natural evolution of society.
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My3cents 10:48 AM 03-28-2013
Originally Posted by just_peachy:
*generally speaking, my perception has been that experience breeds arrogance, with several fantastic exceptions.

I base this off of the frequent "kids these days/society these days" comments, in regards to both providers and actual children.


What am I missing? I must be out to lunch-

Can you explain the bolded more-

AP if that is for you great and wonderful, it is not for everyone and that is ok too.
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My3cents 10:50 AM 03-28-2013
Originally Posted by Crystal:
And there ya go.
I need to learn to read ahead before responding......
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Blackcat31 10:51 AM 03-28-2013
Originally Posted by just_peachy:
I don't want to create an even greater divide, but I have also read a lot of negative comments about parents who work outside the home. It sucks that so many HAVE to. Today's economy is so different, things happened, choices were made, and the Gen-Yers and beyond are reeling from them. Every generation is DIFFERENT. With different priorities, different beliefs, different sources of stress, different struggles, different advantages. And I think that's okay. It's the natural evolution of society.
That is a difference of opinion too. HAVE to and WANT to are two totally different things.

I know lots of families who are perfectly willing to give up the new cars and the big houses, big screen TV, giant cable bills, cell phone bills, Starbucks and name brand clothing just so both parents DON'T have to work outside the home.

In all my years of being a member of society.....it hasn't been often that I have met a family in which BOTH parents HAVE to work outside the home....unless it was for the perks I mentioned above and that is a personal choice NOT a necessity.
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just_peachy 10:52 AM 03-28-2013
Originally Posted by My3cents:
This is your view. OK- I don't agree

I have tons of experience and years in this field- but I don't fall into the cookie cutter mold. I often throw in my 3cents and more- I don't expect after I have said something, that does not agree with someone else, for them to be buddy buddy with me. Not how the real world works. It takes people a little time to come around. Some never do. That is ok. Sometimes I stand strongly on what I believe in and it just doesn't mesh with someone else- that is ok. I think threads are killed from lack of interest from the peanut galleries. Sometimes all that can be said is said. I also think looking up to our Seniors is not a bad theory in itself. I also feel learning new is good too. But..... some of the new stuff out there is lacking good common sense because someone that did not have this in the first place ruined it for everyone else--- I just strive for a balance for what works for me. If I hurt someone I try to own up to it, but if I have a passion for what I believe in sometimes I am willing to walk away with feelings at hand. I can't please everyone but I can try to get my point across as nicely as possible. I fall short at times- What is it you are looking for in this piece? More information for what? What am I missing here that made this post come about?


It's difficult to clarify. I made blanket statements that I shouldn't have when I had just a few individuals in mind. At the same time, I don't want to single anyone out...

I agree with everything else you said! I suppose I am a lot more neutral than I am coming off today. Apparently spring break is giving me too much down time! It's just difficult for me to sit by and feel like one side is being unequally and unfairly represented, so it is easier for me to speak on that side's behalf.
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just_peachy 10:56 AM 03-28-2013
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
That is a difference of opinion too. HAVE to and WANT to are two totally different things.

I know lots of families who are perfectly willing to give up the new cars and the big houses, big screen TV, giant cable bills, cell phone bills, Starbucks and name brand clothing just so both parents DON'T have to work outside the home.

In all my years of being a member of society.....it hasn't been often that I have met a family in which BOTH parents HAVE to work outside the home....unless it was for the perks I mentioned above and that is a personal choice NOT a necessity.
Interesting, I wonder if this is regional as well. Out of the 6 families I have, only 1 of them could so easily live off of one income that it's disturbing to me that they both work. Well, two, but the second one it is the mom that is the bread winner. The rest are barely scraping by on 2 incomes.
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littlemissmuffet 11:17 AM 03-28-2013
Frogs, I wish you wouldn't say things such as narcotics in breast milk being less dangerous than formula . Yes, there are plenty of studies that show that breast fed infants are healthier (mentally, physically and emotionally) than forumla fed - but there are also plenty of studies that show there is essentially ZERO long-term difference between the two. Who educated me on this? TEN different certified breastfeeding consultants, neonatalogists and peds who work in one of Canada's leading NICUs. So, you might have done your research, you might have YOUR team of doctors and consultants whom you CHOOSE to agree with - but others are entitled to that same right.

Also, speaking from experience - my husband and I were both forumla babies - we are two of the healthiest adults I know. We also were top of our classes throughout our educational years. We are average sizes. We both walked and started talking at 9 months, were both potty trained by 15 months. We both have extremely strong bonds with our mothers.

My daughter is a formula baby. She was born 3 months and 6 days premature. She is off the charts for growth and ability. The doctors are AMAZED that she doesn't look like or act like a 26 weeker preemie. She was born with a grade 4 brain bleed and many other medical issues which she's fully conquered in her short three months of life. She is the healthiest long-term and short-term baby in the NICU. She does not behave as any other preemie most of the NICU staff have seen. She is better off than the breast-fed babies around us.

My sisters 3 children are all formula babies. All are 100% healthy (rarely even catch the common cold), are all in advanced classes and are extremely bright and intelligent. Each one of them walked and talked early, each one of them surpassed their friends in ability.

Are the 6 examples of strong, advanced, healthy individuals the result of formula? No, of course not. If all of us were breast fed, I wouldn't attribute our advances in life to that either.

I am not for or against breast feeding, but I am very much against women who DO/CAN breastfeed making one-sided comments about how unhealthy or dangerous formula is. You can show me every study under the sun that "proves" this, but remember, there will be just as many studies that disprove it.

You are entitled to believe what you want but to spew your OPINIONS as fact is just plain wrong.
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Blackcat31 11:36 AM 03-28-2013
Originally Posted by just_peachy:
Interesting, I wonder if this is regional as well. Out of the 6 families I have, only 1 of them could so easily live off of one income that it's disturbing to me that they both work. Well, two, but the second one it is the mom that is the bread winner. The rest are barely scraping by on 2 incomes.
I'm sorry but unless you have FULL and 100% complete access to their financial records you don't know that as factual.

I'm betting at least one of the families you are talking about makes poor money choices or prioritizes in a way that requires BOTH parents to work in order to maintain their chosen life styles.

You only know what they tell you and IME, wanting to work outside the home is completely different than having to.
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CedarCreek 11:45 AM 03-28-2013
Oh dear dear dear...

I was completely fine with this debate (breastfeeding) until it was said and implied that formula is worse than breastmilk with narcotics. No. Just no.

Both of my sons were preemies. One more so than the other. The first, I tried to pump but I could not keep up with it because I still had to go to highschool and ds was in the nice for a while. I couldn't even touch him. After about 3 weeks, nothing. He went on formula. Second ds, had a hard time latching but I still bf'ed and pumped like crazy. What stopped me was being placed on Zoloft. My doctor told me to stop bfing because the Zoloft would make him sleepy and then he would lose precious weight. Formula it was. Did any of that make me not as good of a mother as a breastfeeding mom? HE77 NO.

As for the rest of the arguments, just put your big girl panties on. The only way I would be leaving this forum for reasons other than I just wanted to would be because there were some serious low blows that were being hugely ignored. But I don't see that happening because I'm sure we are all adults here that would not stoop that low.
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Crystal 12:41 PM 03-28-2013
Originally Posted by littlemissmuffet:
Frogs, I wish you wouldn't say things such as narcotics in breast milk being less dangerous than formula . Yes, there are plenty of studies that show that breast fed infants are healthier (mentally, physically and emotionally) than forumla fed - but there are also plenty of studies that show there is essentially ZERO long-term difference between the two. Who educated me on this? TEN different certified breastfeeding consultants, neonatalogists and peds who work in one of Canada's leading NICUs. So, you might have done your research, you might have YOUR team of doctors and consultants whom you CHOOSE to agree with - but others are entitled to that same right.

Also, speaking from experience - my husband and I were both forumla babies - we are two of the healthiest adults I know. We also were top of our classes throughout our educational years. We are average sizes. We both walked and started talking at 9 months, were both potty trained by 15 months. We both have extremely strong bonds with our mothers.

My daughter is a formula baby. She was born 3 months and 6 days premature. She is off the charts for growth and ability. The doctors are AMAZED that she doesn't look like or act like a 26 weeker preemie. She was born with a grade 4 brain bleed and many other medical issues which she's fully conquered in her short three months of life. She is the healthiest long-term and short-term baby in the NICU. She does not behave as any other preemie most of the NICU staff have seen. She is better off than the breast-fed babies around us.

My sisters 3 children are all formula babies. All are 100% healthy (rarely even catch the common cold), are all in advanced classes and are extremely bright and intelligent. Each one of them walked and talked early, each one of them surpassed their friends in ability.

Are the 6 examples of strong, advanced, healthy individuals the result of formula? No, of course not. If all of us were breast fed, I wouldn't attribute our advances in life to that either.

I am not for or against breast feeding, but I am very much against women who DO/CAN breastfeed making one-sided comments about how unhealthy or dangerous formula is. You can show me every study under the sun that "proves" this, but remember, there will be just as many studies that disprove it.

You are entitled to believe what you want but to spew your OPINIONS as fact is just plain wrong.
Thank you for this. Your story is truly heart breaking, yet inspiring.
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Crystal 12:43 PM 03-28-2013
On the topic of breastmilk from a mother who is heavily medicated on pain meds/narcotics.....HOW can that possibly be better for the baby than forumula? Please, enlighten me, because I just do not see how that is at all possible.
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Crazy In Mo 12:48 PM 03-28-2013
Originally Posted by CedarCreek:
I was completely fine with this debate (breastfeeding) until it was said and implied that formula is worse than breastmilk with narcotics. No. Just no..

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littlemissmuffet 12:59 PM 03-28-2013
Originally Posted by Crystal:
Thank you for this. Your story is truly heart breaking, yet inspiring.

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frgsonmysox 01:00 PM 03-28-2013
I didn't imply anything. I straight up said, that nursing with narcotics is better for a child than formula. I did not say those who used formula are bad parents, and the hurt feelings anytime anyone ever says that nursing is healthier for infants is ridiculous. If you don't want to, or can't, or whatever your reason is for not nursing - thats your reason. I'm not going to tell you that you are wrong. But don't get all butt hurt when I say, and others, and studies show that nursing is healthier.

http://www.nbci.ca/index.php?option=...tion&Itemid=17

"Introduction Over the years, far too many women have been wrongly told they had to stop breastfeeding because they must take a particular drug. The decision about continuing breastfeeding when the mother takes a drug, for example, is far more involved than whether the baby will get any of the drug in the milk. It also involves taking into consideration the risks of not breastfeeding, for the mother, the baby and the family, as well as society. And there are plenty of risks in not breastfeeding, so the question essentially boils down to: Does the addition of a small amount of medication to the mother’s milk make breastfeeding more hazardous than formula feeding? The answer is almost never. Breastfeeding with a little drug in the milk is almost always safer. In other words, being careful means continuing breastfeeding, not stopping. "

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/bre...ations/MY02043

http://kellymom.com/bf/can-i-breastfeed/meds/med-risks/


I don't post **** without knowing what I'm talking about.
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Willow 01:06 PM 03-28-2013
R
Originally Posted by Crystal:
On the topic of breastmilk from a mother who is heavily medicated on pain meds/narcotics.....HOW can that possibly be better for the baby than forumula? Please, enlighten me, because I just do not see how that is at all possible.
Not that it's necessarily worth a hill of beans because it is just my opinion but all of the newborns I fostered were exposed to either prescription or illicit drugs and all of them had tough detox periods after birth.

Just in my experiences I don't see how enduring that exposure could be considered healthierfor them than formula feeding.
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Crystal 01:16 PM 03-28-2013
Originally Posted by frgsonmysox:
I didn't imply anything. I straight up said, that nursing with narcotics is better for a child than formula. I did not say those who used formula are bad parents, and the hurt feelings anytime anyone ever says that nursing is healthier for infants is ridiculous. If you don't want to, or can't, or whatever your reason is for not nursing - thats your reason. I'm not going to tell you that you are wrong. But don't get all butt hurt when I say, and others, and studies show that nursing is healthier.

http://www.nbci.ca/index.php?option=...tion&Itemid=17

"Introduction Over the years, far too many women have been wrongly told they had to stop breastfeeding because they must take a particular drug. The decision about continuing breastfeeding when the mother takes a drug, for example, is far more involved than whether the baby will get any of the drug in the milk. It also involves taking into consideration the risks of not breastfeeding, for the mother, the baby and the family, as well as society. And there are plenty of risks in not breastfeeding, so the question essentially boils down to: Does the addition of a small amount of medication to the mother’s milk make breastfeeding more hazardous than formula feeding? The answer is almost never. Breastfeeding with a little drug in the milk is almost always safer. In other words, being careful means continuing breastfeeding, not stopping. "

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/bre...ations/MY02043

http://kellymom.com/bf/can-i-breastfeed/meds/med-risks/


I don't post **** without knowing what I'm talking about.
So, the first link has a list of safe meds, with none of them, shy of the codeine, being a major narcotic (even codeine isn't, really). They are over the counter type meds. It also says "Does the addition of a small amount of medication to the mother’s milk make breastfeeding more hazardous than formula feeding?" I would argue that being on a regimen of painkillers 24/7 is NOT a small amount.



The second link doesn't even go as far as to include codeine.....and this link being the mayclinic is the one I'd trust most. And, considering it says that Naproxen (whihc can be bought over the counter) should be SHORT TERM USE only, I would wonder if a heavier narcotic should be used long-term with a breast feeding child, say a child preschool age.

The third link provided virtually no information that I would deem relevant and caused me to get a bunch of pop ups.

Not ONE of them say that breastfeeding while taking narcotics is SAFER than formula. Well, the third one might have but I was afraid my computer was going to crash!!!!!

Another note to consider is that "New Research indicates"......what you don't know now, could hurt you (or your kids) later.
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Crystal 01:17 PM 03-28-2013
Originally Posted by Willow:
R

Not that it's necessarily worth a hill of beans because it is just my opinion but all of the newborns I fostered were exposed to either prescription or illicit drugs and all of them had tough detox periods after birth.

Just in my experiences I don't see how enduring that exposure could be considered healthierfor them than formula feeding.
I hear ya. I have a little guy who was exposed to amphetamines in utero and via breast milk. He has had a tough go of it and has alot of delays even now at 5 years old.
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Blackcat31 01:25 PM 03-28-2013
"On the basis of the evidence of many research studies, it’s been determined that as a group, psychotropic drugs are generally regarded as safe for use by breastfeeding moms, so their HCPs don’t need be overly concerned if a woman needs to be treated while she is breastfeeding.

In most of these medcations, such a small amount gets in the milk that blood levels are usually too low to be measured. This is true for the majority of SSRIs (Seretonin Specific Receptor Inhibitors) like Paxil or Zoloft; TCAs (Tricyclic Antidepressents) like Elavil; and Mood Stabilizers like Valproic Acid (Depakote). Wellbutrin (Zyban) is an older antidepressant that has a different structure from SSRI and tricyclic medications. It may appear in milk, but the amount is so low that it is unlikely to cause problems in the breastfed baby

•Very few drugs are contraindicated for nursing mothers.

•The route of administration (your baby is always exposed through the GI tract, but drugs can enter your system several different ways: orally, intravenously, intramuscularly, topically, or through inhalation – topical medications (skin creams) and medications inhaled or applied to the eyes or nose reach the milk in lesser amounts and more slowly than other routes and are almost always safe for nursing mothers; oral medications take longer to get into the milk than IV and IM routes (the drug must first go through the mother’s GI tract before it enters the bloodstream, and the milk supply)-with IV drugs, the medications bypasses the barriers in the GI tract to enter the milk quickly and at higher levels, and with IM injections, drugs transfer quickly into the milk because the muscles have so many blood vessels, so the drug enters the bloodstream quickly."


http://www.breastfeedingbasics.com/a...-breastfeeding

"The AAP (American Academy of Pediatrics) has published a statement called “The Transfer of Drugs and Other Chemicals Into Human Milk”. It has 8 Tables – Drugs That Are Contraindicated During Breastfeeding, Drugs of Abuse Contraindicated During Breastfeeding, Radioactive Compounds That Require Temporary Cessation of Breastfeeding, Drugs Whose Effect on Nursing Infants Is Unknown But May Be of Concern, Drugs That Have Been Associated With Significant Effects on Some Nursing Infants and Should Be Given to Nursing Mothers With Caution (be aware that this category includes drugs that are known to have caused one single case of diarrhea- that’s how conservative they are), Maternal Medications Usually Compatible With Breastfeeding (a long list), Food and Environmental Agents: Effect on Breastfeeding, Generic Drugs and Corresponding Trade Names, and Trade Names and Generic Equivalents. The AAP statement was revised in 2010. Because so many new drugs have come out during the past ten years, many drugs currently in use have not been reviewed by the AAP and don’t appear on this list. Here’s a link to the AAP website where you can find more detailed information about the current recommendations:" http://aappolicy.aappublications.org...rics;108/3/776
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frgsonmysox 01:40 PM 03-28-2013
Originally Posted by Willow:
R

Not that it's necessarily worth a hill of beans because it is just my opinion but all of the newborns I fostered were exposed to either prescription or illicit drugs and all of them had tough detox periods after birth.

Just in my experiences I don't see how enduring that exposure could be considered healthierfor them than formula feeding.
None of my kids have ever had to detox from medications. They were closely monitored after birth to make sure they were fine, and not a single one ever went through withdrawal. I have a great team of doctors and I trust them explicitly.

Originally Posted by Crystal:
So, the first link has a list of safe meds, with none of them, shy of the codeine, being a major narcotic (even codeine isn't, really). They are over the counter type meds. It also says "Does the addition of a small amount of medication to the mother’s milk make breastfeeding more hazardous than formula feeding?" I would argue that being on a regimen of painkillers 24/7 is NOT a small amount.



The second link doesn't even go as far as to include codeine.....and this link being the mayclinic is the one I'd trust most. And, considering it says that Naproxen (whihc can be bought over the counter) should be SHORT TERM USE only, I would wonder if a heavier narcotic should be used long-term with a breast feeding child, say a child preschool age.

The third link provided virtually no information that I would deem relevant and caused me to get a bunch of pop ups.

Not ONE of them say that breastfeeding while taking narcotics is SAFER than formula. Well, the third one might have but I was afraid my computer was going to crash!!!!!

Another note to consider is that "New Research indicates"......what you don't know now, could hurt you (or your kids) later.
did you not read the part I posted? As well, if you would have not been extremely narrow minded on the second link you will have understood that it only listed a few meds but spoke broadly about medications in general. The third link has a great list of additional resources that show that many narcotics are safe to take, and trust me - both of the ones I'm on are.
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frgsonmysox 01:45 PM 03-28-2013
http://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/sis/htmlgen?LACT

basically THE database on nursing and medications. Both of mine are safe.

Other medications like methadone are used to treat pain quite more effectively than the ones I'm on, but the risks are higher so we don't use those. Instead I use what I'm on and suck the rest of it up.
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Crystal 01:46 PM 03-28-2013
I was just reading that as well BC....the thing is, in all of the tables it has listed, it has only over the counter pain meds and codeine listed as painkillers. OP is not taking those and she isn't taking psychotropic drugs,(at least from what I undertsand), she is taking heavy duty painkillers around the clock. I'd like to find some info on THAT and how it effects breastmilk.
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Crystal 01:50 PM 03-28-2013
Originally Posted by frgsonmysox:
None of my kids have ever had to detox from medications. They were closely monitored after birth to make sure they were fine, and not a single one ever went through withdrawal. I have a great team of doctors and I trust them explicitly.



did you not read the part I posted? As well, if you would have not been extremely narrow minded on the second link you will have understood that it only listed a few meds but spoke broadly about medications in general. The third link has a great list of additional resources that show that many narcotics are safe to take, and trust me - both of the ones I'm on are.
Yes, I read the part you posted. Please do not call me narrow-minded - I am far from it. I am trying to understand this. I have NO IDEA how it effects breast milk. I'd like to KNOW for a FACT and even perhaps have some literature that I could provide to my DCM's who breastfeed.

As for the third link....not taking any chances. The site seems unstable to me.

AND....the whole point was your stating that IT IS SAFER TO BREASTFEED WHILE ON NARCOTICS THAN IT IS TO FORMULA FEED. THOSE are the "facts" you stated that are being disputed at this point. How about some links that back that up?
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Blackcat31 02:00 PM 03-28-2013
Originally Posted by Crystal:
I was just reading that as well BC....the thing is, in all of the tables it has listed, it has only over the counter pain meds and codeine listed as painkillers. OP is not taking those and she isn't taking psychotropic drugs,(at least from what I undertsand), she is taking heavy duty painkillers around the clock. I'd like to find some info on THAT and how it effects breastmilk.
I don't have a dog in this fight but I DO like information.

From what I gather, morphine is the most common narcotic and prescribed pain killer out there and most the sites I found or came across say that taking morphine is not as dangerous as one would think when breastfeeding. As a matter of fact a common theme I am reading is that there are very few drugs that are contraindicated for breast feeding mothers.

"Morphine is excreted into human milk in trace amounts. Adverse effects in the nursing infant are unlikely. Morphine is considered compatible with breast-feeding by the American Academy of Pediatrics"
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EntropyControlSpecialist 02:01 PM 03-28-2013
Originally Posted by frgsonmysox:
I have no issues with people who use formula. I even used formula before, with my oldest. I understand its need, and its great and a huge life saver for many many moms and babies. For ME it was a choice I had to make, and all of MY doctors encouraged me to nurse. I do have doctors who feel similar to how I do on things, as I hope all people do, so that may be a factor.

I'm sorry that you too are on medications. It's not fun. It sucks to think how much our life depends on it.



If I'm preaching to the choir, GREAT! But with nanny going after my posts, as well as others who agree with her - and lets face it Nanny is one of the most outspoken and "loudest" people on this board. So I may be wrong, there may be more AP people, but when the loud and bullyish people are the ones who are speaking the most and the loudest it doesnt' feel that way. So far there has not been a single thread that had to do with AP practices that wasn't pounced on. I was flabbergasted at how much animosity there was by telling a provider she should notify the parents before CIO.
I just wanted to say that I lean far more towards AP (not that I do everything that is included in the AP bracket) than I do mainstream. You have my support.
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frgsonmysox 02:01 PM 03-28-2013
As kellymom.com is the leading breastfeeding website I'm not sure why you are so scared of looking at it.

http://kellymom.com/bf/can-i-breastf...ved-meds/#Pain
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Country Kids 02:03 PM 03-28-2013
Interesting Read:

http://drugs.about.com/lw/Health-Med...Whats-Not-.htm
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frgsonmysox 02:04 PM 03-28-2013
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
I don't have a dog in this fight but I DO like information.

From what I gather, morphine is the most common narcotic and prescribed pain killer out there and most the sites I found or came across say that taking morphine is not as dangerous as one would think when breastfeeding. As a matter of fact a common theme I am reading is that there are very few drugs that are contraindicated for breast feeding mothers.

"Morphine is excreted into human milk in trace amounts. Adverse effects in the nursing infant are unlikely. Morphine is considered compatible with breast-feeding by the American Academy of Pediatrics"
Yes, Morphine is one of the safest meds to take, narcotic wise, while nursing.

Also, for long term usage PURE narcotics are far more safer to use. I am actually unable to take any meds mixed with tylenol, motrin, or naproxen. Those three meds do more damage to organs than pure narcotics do.
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