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Daycare Center and Family Home Forum>Need help before going to a brainstorming meeting!!
Lucy 06:04 PM 11-28-2012
I got an email today that says my state is coming up with a system that "grades" providers on how much education they have. They need a name for it, and if we agree to come to a brainstorming meeting, we'll get 50 bucks!! It's only a 90-min session, so how could I pass it up???

Currently, when parents call for DC referrals, they are just told whether we "meet" or "exceed" the minimum education requirements. (Minimum is 8 hours). Well now the state wants to have..... well, let me just cut and paste a portion of the email:

We are planning to implement a Tiered Quality Rating and Improvement System (TQRIS). The TQRIS is a mechanism and set of supports designed to assess and communicate quality of licensed early education and care programs.

As part of this work, the Child Care Division is working with Pyramid Communications to develop a new name for the TQRIS. We now have a few options to choose from and we would like your input.

We have selected a small group of providers to participate in a discussion about potential names for the TQRIS. We’d like to invite you to be a part of that group.


So anyway.... who is clever and can help me think up possible names for this new program? I don't want to get to this meeting and sit there like a ding-dong, not saying anything, then collect my 50 bucks and go home! LOL. I want to have some input.

Anyone?? Thanks!
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Country Kids 06:08 PM 11-28-2012
I'm going to one in about 20 mins. We have another meeting next week to figure out how many hours of training we have.

I'm not looking forward to this. I think this is the beginning of the STARS program for our state!
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Lucy 06:17 PM 11-28-2012
I'm not familiar with STARS. What is that?

Let me know how your meeting goes! What are your thoughts about all this? Am I understanding correctly what the jist of it is, or is there more to it?
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Meeko 07:49 PM 11-28-2012
I can think of a few names for these programs. None of them are printable.....
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Lucy 08:22 PM 11-28-2012
Uh-oh. I'm getting a sinking feeling about this. Enlighten me.... I guess I'm not getting what it all means.
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Country Kids 08:34 PM 11-28-2012
Originally Posted by Lucy:
Uh-oh. I'm getting a sinking feeling about this. Enlighten me.... I guess I'm not getting what it all means.
Ok, just got back. You know how some of the providers talk about the STARS program in other states. Well this is what they are doing here.

We will have teir levels for our childcares. You will have to meet certain requirements for the next level. The higher the level, the more "quality" childcare you provide (supposably). I'm not happy at all. I received the handbook on it and already see problems with my set up.

We are able to do a 2 year pilot project with this and I so hope I get chosen to participate because I would love to have someone come in and see if with my set up I could even get to some of the higher levels.
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Lucy 08:56 PM 11-28-2012
(Can't get quoting to work )

"You know how some of the providers talk about the STARS program in other states"

No, I really don't. I guess I've seen it mentioned here, but didn't give it any attention because it didn't apply to me. Can you enlighten me? What the heck are we talking about here? I thought it was just a way for our Resource & Referral to be able to tell potential DCP how much education we've had. Am I over-simplifying it? Is there going to be a higher requirement from us?

If I'm an under-achiever (LOL) can I just go on how I've been (meeting minimum requirements) and not caring? Yes... that describes me!! I have no desire to go above the 8 hours of education. Just send me the kids and have their parents give me regular checks! lol. (Don't blast me... I'm a good Provider with 18 yrs of experience. I'm speaking tongue-in-cheek here. But I really do only take the minimum requirements.)

Thanks, C.K.
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daycare 09:27 PM 11-28-2012
Lucy. Just curious what state you are in?
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Country Kids 09:30 PM 11-28-2012
Originally Posted by daycare:
Lucy. Just curious what state you are in?
She's with me!
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Country Kids 09:36 PM 11-28-2012
Originally Posted by Lucy:
(Can't get quoting to work )

"You know how some of the providers talk about the STARS program in other states"

No, I really don't. I guess I've seen it mentioned here, but didn't give it any attention because it didn't apply to me. Can you enlighten me? What the heck are we talking about here? I thought it was just a way for our Resource & Referral to be able to tell potential DCP how much education we've had. Am I over-simplifying it? Is there going to be a higher requirement from us?

If I'm an under-achiever (LOL) can I just go on how I've been (meeting minimum requirements) and not caring? Yes... that describes me!! I have no desire to go above the 8 hours of education. Just send me the kids and have their parents give me regular checks! lol. (Don't blast me... I'm a good Provider with 18 yrs of experience. I'm speaking tongue-in-cheek here. But I really do only take the minimum requirements.)

Thanks, C.K.
No your thinking of the registry program. Totally two different things. So here's what I found out tonight.

Unliscensed=0 stars
Liscensed=1 star
Committment 2 Quality=2 starts (meaning your interested and will work to obtain higher standards which means higher stars.

Then it goes up from there!

I have 17 years of experience and it won't matter. To go from 3 stars up, you will have to put a whole portfolio together (pictures/write ups) of your program and submit it. This is how they can see what star to put you at. I think the more education you have (as a director and such) is the only way to obtain 5 starts but I could be wrong.

They even tell you what curriculum to use for your program!

Here's the funny thing-the gal said "oh they don't even have a name for it yet. I almost, almost said no, but I know someone who might be on the committee for naming it. I don't know why they aren't giving us all a chance to name it? Why only one area of the state?

What I don't like is I'm a business owner but little by little I'm being taken over by the government. So maybe I'll just call myself a government employee and just start taking all those holidays paid!
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Willow 05:43 AM 11-29-2012
Originally Posted by Meeko:
I can think of a few names for these programs. None of them are printable.....
My thoughts exactly.
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Blackcat31 07:04 AM 11-29-2012
Originally Posted by Meeko:
I can think of a few names for these programs. None of them are printable.....



Originally Posted by Lucy:
Uh-oh. I'm getting a sinking feeling about this. Enlighten me.... I guess I'm not getting what it all means.
Lucy, QRIS is the wave of the future for child care providers.

It is slowly being implemented in all states. I think 2015 was the time line for everyone to be on board.

If you do a little googling, you can find 1,000's of articles about how the governement plans to take over all family run child care programs and will take authority out of our hands.

That, of course, is NOT how they market it, but that is basically what it is. If you want more info, PM me and I can try to enlighten you.
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Crystal 07:39 AM 11-29-2012
I just went to a meeting Tuesday evening about the implementation of the QRIS for our county. California was one of 9 states to recieve a Race to the Top Grant for early learning and Sacramento is one of 17 counties starting a 3 year pilot program. I signed up for it. I think it is FABULOUS that it is happening and am looking forward to it going Nationwide eventually.

It isn't as scary as some make it seem. It is really about ensuring quality in early care and education for young children. It will look different for each state, as they all will set their own standards.....it might even vary by county, as it is here....out of the 17 counties participating, Sacramento is the only county to have 5 steps to achieve the highest rating, the others have three, and our requirements are higher than the others.

The education piece is important......experience is HIGHLY valuable, but I do believe that ALL providers/cargivers of young children should have, at the least, some minimal education in child development. But, do know that it isn't going to be ALL about the providers education, and many of the indicators, most of us already meet anyway.
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Crystal 07:42 AM 11-29-2012
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:





Lucy, QRIS is the wave of the future for child care providers.

It is slowly being implemented in all states. I think 2015 was the time line for everyone to be on board.

If you do a little googling, you can find 1,000's of articles about how the governement plans to take over all family run child care programs and will take authority out of our hands.

That, of course, is NOT how they market it, but that is basically what it is. If you want more info, PM me and I can try to enlighten you.

Hmmmm....I don't think that is truly accurate. I think that is the opinion of people who don't like the idea and are trying to scare people away from it all.

I would argue that it is ABOUT TIME that there is some sort of National guidelines into child care regulations. There needs to be some consistency, and I think ALL programs should have some sort of oversight, otherwise we end up with the Jessica Tata's of the world.
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Blackcat31 08:01 AM 11-29-2012
Originally Posted by Crystal:
Hmmmm....I don't think that is truly accurate. I think that is the opinion of people who don't like the idea and are trying to scare people away from it all. .
If you are implying that I don't like the idea and am trying to scare people away, that is NOT true. I happen to be involved with our states rating system right now, and the ONE consistent thing I know to be true is that there are MORE regulations and rules to follow. There are now "right" and "wrong" ways to do EVERYTHING and child care providers will no longer have as much say in how their programs are run now unless they aren't concerned about how many stars they have or don't have.

Originally Posted by Crystal:
I would argue that it is ABOUT TIME that there is some sort of National guidelines into child care regulations. There needs to be some consistency, and I think ALL programs should have some sort of oversight, otherwise we end up with the Jessica Tata's of the world.
I also think, and have said so a hundred times, that there should be some consistency as to how the child care world works and functions when it comes to provider education but when the program disallows a providers college education and years and years of experience, then it isn't in the best interest of the small business owner any more.

Our state's program recognizes college degrees and coursework that has been taken ONLY within the last 5 years. If you have a master's degree in education, it doesn't count unless it was earned within those guidelines. If you have 20 years of experience, it doesn't count for anything unless you take the coursework they want you to take.

I also have issue with the fact that providers who do not do some sort of organized curriculum (approved by the state) they cannot earn more than 1 or 2 stars. That makes their program look less than quality when that is not always the case.

Providers who offer play based curriculum and spend their time focusing on the rest, food and quality of care itself will be overlooked. Providers can only earn max stars or recognition when they providee written lesson plans, proof of observation and assessment for each child in care, proof of parent involvment and etc...

Many providers just want to CARE for kids NOT teach them academic things and academic success and preparedness for school is the main focus or intent of the star rating system, in my opinion, so I guess you can take it however you want, but a system that does not recognize and reward ALL the different types of programs is wrong in my opinion.

I think giving parents the false sense that one program is better or worth more than another just because of stars is also wrong. Yes, each provider can choose to earn as many stars as their state allows but in order to earn those stars you have to meet their requirements.

Nan was/is a perfect example of the type of provider who will not benefit from a star system. She has a fantastic, well run QUALITY program but wouldn't be highly rated or given too many stars because she doesn't offer a structured state approved curriculum and she doesn't have a 2,4 or higher degree in education.
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Country Kids 08:20 AM 11-29-2012
We will have a 5 star system.

I went to the pilot project meeting and expressed my desire to do this. Right now I more then likely won't get 3 stars. I have run a highly successful business for 17 years but because of not specifically running my program the way they want, I couldn't get stars.

There really won't be any individuality in childcare anymore. They will all pretty much be cookie cutter.

I don't have the room for what they are wanting for one thing. I don't have the space for individual centers, space for children to be alone, reading nooks, childsize size furniture for each size of child, and the list goes on.

I don't even have the freedom to choose my own curriculum. They have it listed what we can use.

The guidelines are 25 pages long and I probably couldn't even get a 1/4 of the stuff. I really want someone to come in and show me how to do this because one its overwhelming and two I don't understand how I'm going to be able to do it in the home I have now.

Education, education, education I understand for children that are ready for it. I have really learned about this over the years from my own experience with my children. Upon talking to several doctors, therapists, and mental health specialists, the average child isn't even ready for school type learning till 8 years old. That is when their brain is ready to take off with the reading/math/ and most subjects. With todays standards, they want to start at birth it seems. Did you know there is talk of getting kindergarten started at 4 and having kids graduate when they are juniors instead of seniors! Lets get them into school earlier/work force earlier and why not just jump our death age up why we are at it. When will people realize that we need down time to enjoy life and just see quietness. Ok, I better get down now-
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My3cents 09:21 AM 11-29-2012
Originally Posted by Crystal:
I just went to a meeting Tuesday evening about the implementation of the QRIS for our county. California was one of 9 states to recieve a Race to the Top Grant for early learning and Sacramento is one of 17 counties starting a 3 year pilot program. I signed up for it. I think it is FABULOUS that it is happening and am looking forward to it going Nationwide eventually.

It isn't as scary as some make it seem. It is really about ensuring quality in early care and education for young children. It will look different for each state, as they all will set their own standards.....it might even vary by county, as it is here....out of the 17 counties participating, Sacramento is the only county to have 5 steps to achieve the highest rating, the others have three, and our requirements are higher than the others.

The education piece is important......experience is HIGHLY valuable, but I do believe that ALL providers/cargivers of young children should have, at the least, some minimal education in child development. But, do know that it isn't going to be ALL about the providers education, and many of the indicators, most of us already meet anyway.
I don't agree with this...... I think it is money driven-

I also feel that one way of doing childcare is not the only way or the right way. Cookie Cutter mind set and most of the time set by pencil pushers, who don't take care of children day in and day out.

It is scary for all of us that have been doing this for years but don't have the "education degree" It is scary because it threatens our business.

I could go on, but am not going too, and I am not looking to cause a heated debate. This is my personal view about this subject. I respect that some of you are for it, just respect those of us that are not for it and have been doing childcare for years.
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Childminder 09:24 AM 11-29-2012
We have just implemented the QRIS in MI and had to have our reviews submitted by Nov 30th. I do not care for the rating system because even though I have 100% in every catergory except Education, because I do not have an early childhood degree or CDA I will never get higher than a 1 star in the 5 star rating system. My 47 years of experience count for nothing. I am NOT going back to school.

I just learned Monday that next year instead of 10 hours of required childcare classes we have to have 24. When am I going to take care of the children?

Hopefully I can still get children until I have to retire. Since I didn't win last nights Powerball I guess it will be a few more years.
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Meeko 09:36 AM 11-29-2012
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
If you are implying that I don't like the idea and am trying to scare people away, that is NOT true. I happen to be involved with our states rating system right now, and the ONE consistent thing I know to be true is that there are MORE regulations and rules to follow. There are now "right" and "wrong" ways to do EVERYTHING and child care providers will no longer have as much say in how their programs are run now unless they aren't concerned about how many stars they have or don't have.



I also think, and have said so a hundred times, that there should be some consistency as to how the child care world works and functions when it comes to provider education but when the program disallows a providers college education and years and years of experience, then it isn't in the best interest of the small business owner any more.

Our state's program recognizes college degrees and coursework that has been taken ONLY within the last 5 years. If you have a master's degree in education, it doesn't count unless it was earned within those guidelines. If you have 20 years of experience, it doesn't count for anything unless you take the coursework they want you to take.

I also have issue with the fact that providers who do not do some sort of organized curriculum (approved by the state) they cannot earn more than 1 or 2 stars. That makes their program look less than quality when that is not always the case.

Providers who offer play based curriculum and spend their time focusing on the rest, food and quality of care itself will be overlooked. Providers can only earn max stars or recognition when they providee written lesson plans, proof of observation and assessment for each child in care, proof of parent involvment and etc...

Many providers just want to CARE for kids NOT teach them academic things and academic success and preparedness for school is the main focus or intent of the star rating system, in my opinion, so I guess you can take it however you want, but a system that does not recognize and reward ALL the different types of programs is wrong in my opinion.

I think giving parents the false sense that one program is better or worth more than another just because of stars is also wrong. Yes, each provider can choose to earn as many stars as their state allows but in order to earn those stars you have to meet their requirements.

Nan was/is a perfect example of the type of provider who will not benefit from a star system. She has a fantastic, well run QUALITY program but wouldn't be highly rated or given too many stars because she doesn't offer a structured state approved curriculum and she doesn't have a 2,4 or higher degree in education.


I mentioned this before in another thread....but we are headed for what the UK is struggling with right now. (I am a transplanted Brit here in the US)

The British government decided to stick it's nose into private day care business and they are now facing a disaster of epic proportions.

Providers were expected to do more and more to get a good rating. Assessments, written lesson plans, files on each child showing educational advancements, parental involvement etc. They got sick and tired of spending hours and hours of their free time (ha ha...after a 12 hour work day) to fill out forms and catch up on paperwork. Inspections took all day and were stressful and nit-picky.

Providers quite by the hundreds or put their rates up VERY high to compensate themselves for all the extra work, extra classes, extra set-up expenses etc.

My brother and his wife were lucky enough to have our parents close by to tend the grandkids a few days a week as daycare is very hard to find in the UK or is so expensive it's not financially possible. It is almost impossible to find full time care.

The UK is now frantically trying to re-vamp the whole thing because it's been a disaster. Not enough day care providers. Angry parents unable to work because they either can't find care or can't afford it, even with financial aid.

Places like "Granny's Home Away From Home Daycare" are no more. "Granny"....who spent her whole life taking wonderful care of the neighborhood children was run out of business. She just wanted to give kids a safe and happy place to play while their grateful parents went to work. She had eons of experience...a glowing reputation and oodles of love to share....which meant absolutely nothing to the "government experts".

The government wanted "Granny" to attend a million classes, keep extensive files on her daycare kids, insist on parent conferences, put up with invasive inspections....etc etc etc. She quit.

Parents have been furiously contacting their MP's (congressmen) demanding things be changed. They don't ALL want an early childhood education program for their kids. They just want a safe, kind place. They don't all want "school"...they want a home away from home, where their kids are happy. A cozy, happy place to relax and play.

The UK government has admitted they made a HUGE mistake and DE-regulation is now in place to try and repair the huge amount of damage.
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Meeko 09:51 AM 11-29-2012
Brits spend more of their income on childcare than any other country. Thanks to a rating system that failed miserably and sent the economy plunging. People can't afford to pay the few providers who are left. The average cost of rural care is 160 pounds per week. That's about $240 per week per child. In London, that goes up to 300 pounds a week....about $450!!!!!!!!! I don't charge that per MONTH!

Most UK providers only take care of PT kids as most parents cannot possibly afford full time rates. PT also allows the provider a little more time to try and combat the paperwork/classes etc. and still have time for her family.

I am sure we will head in the same direction the more the government tries to invade our homes.
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Lucy 10:08 AM 11-29-2012
Originally Posted by My3cents:
I don't agree with this...... I think it is money driven-

I also feel that one way of doing childcare is not the only way or the right way. Cookie Cutter mind set and most of the time set by pencil pushers, who don't take care of children day in and day out.

It is scary for all of us that have been doing this for years but don't have the "education degree" It is scary because it threatens our business.

I could go on, but am not going too, and I am not looking to cause a heated debate. This is my personal view about this subject. I respect that some of you are for it, just respect those of us that are not for it and have been doing childcare for years.
Holy cow, now I'm scared of this program. I wish I hadn't agreed to be on the naming committee for it!

I agree with everything My3C said, but I think instead of it being money driven, it was cover-your-ass driven. There have been many cases of abuse at DC's, and the gov't wants to cover their asses. Forgive my French.

So I'm that Provider who doesn't want to take classes on ECE, and I really don't want to do a formal curriculum. I teach my DC kids every day. Just yesterday we went to the grocery store and the 4-yr olds were champs at finding fruits that began with A, counting how many to put in the bag, etc. That's only a small example, but I take literally EVERY opportunity to teach them something. Whether it's math when we figure out how many Nilla Wafers we all get if there are 10 in the box, whether it's shapes that I cut their toast into, etc. I could go on and on. The school-agers are sick of me asking if they know how to spell such-and-such, or if they understand this or that from the newspaper. I'm literally teaching ALL day long. But I don't desire to do a formal curriculum, let alone the packaged curriculums that the state would require me to do. And I DO NOT want state oversight of what I'm doing. A 90-minute inspection visit every 2 years is plenty, thank you. I'm not on the food program because I got sick of the girl telling me not to serve strawberries 2 days in a row, or that 3 vegetable choices were not enough in one month. (I made those up because I don't remember the specifics of what she would gripe about, but you get the picture.) Anyway, so does this mean I'll be a lowly 1-star Provider and that parents will see my measly 1 star next to someone else's 3 and I'll look like a loser? I've done this for 18 years and I gotta say, I do a GREAT job. I have sent many kids to Kindergarten who were pretty much at a 1st grade level partly because of my daily "teachings". I'm every bit as capable, reliable, safe, loving, caring, nurturing, etc., etc. as the 3-star ladies are. Nothing against them, it's just not what I want to do. This pretty much sucks.

Ok, so that being said, what kind of names can I suggest? They're paying me 50 bucks to go to this meeting... I should come up with something, don't you think? lol. And I'm asking seriously. I realize there's a temptation to name it derogatory names because we don't like it, but I really need some help here. Thanks, ladies.
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Willow 10:10 AM 11-29-2012
Originally Posted by Crystal:
There needs to be some consistency, and I think ALL programs should have some sort of oversight, otherwise we end up with the Jessica Tata's of the world.

It's been proven time and time again that more policies, more rules, more laws, are never the answer to an issue like this.

ENFORCEMENT of current standards is.


If you think creating more rules is going to stop the Jessica Tata's of the world you are sadly mistaken. People that don't give a hoot and don't care to stay in compliance never will.



I say take all the money they plan on dumping into this crap and put it towards hiring more licensing workers to enforce what's already on the books. If that can't be maintained how in the heck do they expect to keep up with so much more???

I haven't seen or heard from my licensing workers since January and when she was here I knew more about what she needed to be doing and checking for than she did.

THAT'S the problem.

The fact that she hasn't been around to check to see if I am in compliance for all that time? Anyone can put on a show for a day and a college degree has nothing to do with keeping kids safe. It's why pediatricians can still be child molesters, it's why business CEO's can still run Ponzi schemes and it's proof that whether or not Jessica Tata had a piece of paper on the wall saying she read a bunch of about caring for children safely has nothing to do with whether or not she actually will.


A degree is nothing more than a promise made by a stranger. "I have this paper so please trust my intentions are good."

Experience and reputation however is tried and true PROOF. "I have all of these years I've SHOWN my intentions, so you KNOW they are good."
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Meeko 10:12 AM 11-29-2012
Originally Posted by Willow:
It's been proven time and time again that more policies, more rules, more laws, are never the answer to an issue like this.

ENFORCEMENT of current standards is.


If you think creating more rules is going to stop the Jessica Tata's of the world you are sadly mistaken. People that don't give a hoot and don't care to stay in compliance never will.



I say take all the money they plan on dumping into this crap and put it towards hiring more licensing workers to enforce what's already on the books. If that can't be maintained how in the heck do they expect to keep up with so much more???

I haven't seen or heard from my licensing workers since January and when she was here I knew more about what she needed to be doing and checking for than she did.

THAT'S the problem.

The fact that she hasn't been around to check to see if I am in compliance for all that time? Anyone can put on a show for a day and a college degree has nothing to do with keeping kids safe. It's why pediatricians can still be child molesters, it's why business CEO's can still run Ponzi schemes and it's proof that whether or not Jessica Tata had a piece of paper on the wall saying she read a bunch of about caring for children safely has nothing to do with whether or not she actually will.

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Crystal 10:43 AM 11-29-2012
Wow....I really wish I had time to post right now, but don't, so I will come back during naptime. Just let me say, that I do understand everyone's fears, and I do respect the opinions of those who disagree with QRIS.....but I have valid points for supporting it, so I will come back to share more after while
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Lucy 10:50 AM 11-29-2012
Originally Posted by Crystal:
Wow....I really wish I had time to post right now, but don't, so I will come back during naptime. Just let me say, that I do understand everyone's fears, and I do respect the opinions of those who disagree with QRIS.....but I have valid points for supporting it, so I will come back to share more after while
Looking forward to it. I do have an open mind about it. Please tell me whether I am correct in assuming that if I don't desire to take more than the minimum amount of education, and decide not to do a curriculum, that I will only get 1 star, and that when parents are shopping for Providers, my 1 star will look pretty sad next to someone else's 2, 3, or 4 stars? Because that's the bottom line for me.
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jojosmommy 11:04 AM 11-29-2012
Originally Posted by Meeko:
I can think of a few names for these programs. None of them are printable.....
LOL! Me too. Take the 50 and run
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Heidi 11:13 AM 11-29-2012
Originally Posted by Willow:
It's been proven time and time again that more policies, more rules, more laws, are never the answer to an issue like this.

ENFORCEMENT of current standards is.


If you think creating more rules is going to stop the Jessica Tata's of the world you are sadly mistaken. People that don't give a hoot and don't care to stay in compliance never will.



I say take all the money they plan on dumping into this crap and put it towards hiring more licensing workers to enforce what's already on the books. If that can't be maintained how in the heck do they expect to keep up with so much more???

I haven't seen or heard from my licensing workers since January and when she was here I knew more about what she needed to be doing and checking for than she did.

THAT'S the problem.

The fact that she hasn't been around to check to see if I am in compliance for all that time? Anyone can put on a show for a day and a college degree has nothing to do with keeping kids safe. It's why pediatricians can still be child molesters, it's why business CEO's can still run Ponzi schemes and it's proof that whether or not Jessica Tata had a piece of paper on the wall saying she read a bunch of about caring for children safely has nothing to do with whether or not she actually will.


A degree is nothing more than a promise made by a stranger. "I have this paper so please trust my intentions are good."

Experience and reputation however is tried and true PROOF. "I have all of these years I've SHOWN my intentions, so you KNOW they are good."

Wisconsin's Youngstar Program cost TEN MILLION dollars for the first 2 years. How many licensers could they have hired with that money to make sure people are following the 760+ licensing rules and that ILLEGAL PROVIDERS ARE SHUT DOWN!

I am participating in Younstar, and there are some good things...but I have not "drank the koolaid" by a long shot.
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Heidi 11:17 AM 11-29-2012
This is a link to the evaluation criteria for Youngstar:

http://dcf.wisconsin.gov/youngstar/p...ail_family.pdf

You can find out more about our program here:

http://dcf.wisconsin.gov/youngstar/details.htm

Minnesota is apparently modeling their program after ours, although we do not have the 5-year education rule that Blackcat mentioned.
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MyAngels 11:30 AM 11-29-2012
Originally Posted by Lucy:
Ok, so that being said, what kind of names can I suggest? They're paying me 50 bucks to go to this meeting... I should come up with something, don't you think? lol. And I'm asking seriously. I realize there's a temptation to name it derogatory names because we don't like it, but I really need some help here. Thanks, ladies.
I'm terrible at coming up with names, but the Illinois program that's sort of similar (I think) is called "Quality Counts QRS."

We must be behind here, because it's still completely voluntary.
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Meeko 11:31 AM 11-29-2012
I am 100% supportive of rule enforcement when it comes to the health and safety of children. This was originally the goal of licensing.....to make sure children were safe. Licensing can come to my home any time they choose to check it out.

I am also very supportive of those who choose to further their educations with degrees, classes etc.

But it should be a CHOICE.

The new star ratings blackmail providers into doing things they don't want to. Follow....or your rating will suffer.

The government wants to control how and what you do. THEY want to decide what is educational. THEY want tell you how you are to run YOUR daycare. You either follow THEIR format, or you get a low rating.

Big government interference is NEVER a good thing.
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Blackcat31 12:08 PM 11-29-2012
Here is the link to the U.S Department of Health and Human Services, Administration for Children and Families. You can click on the right side of the menu and find your state. It explains your states version of QRIS
http://www.acf.hhs.gov/programs/occ/...root/index.cfm

One of the most frequently asked questions was is there financial incentives for parents if they choose providers with higher ratings....

Are there incentives for parents to choose higher rated providers?

Experience from other fields suggests that financial incentives can help change consumer behavior. Several States are experimenting with this approach and creating consumer-based incentives linked to QRIS. Several years ago Maine doubled the State dependent care tax credit for parents who used an early childhood program that was at Step 4 of the State’s Quality for ME initiative. Anecdotal evidence suggests that this financial incentive increased the number of parents who inquired about quality, which subsequently increased the number of providers participating in accreditation facilitation projects and career development in early and school-age care and education. In 2007, the Louisiana legislature passed a package of School Readiness Tax Credits (SRTC) linked to Quality Start, the Louisiana QRIS. The package, which took effect on January 1, 2008, includes a refundable State dependent care tax credit for families with children younger than age 6. The value of the credit increases based on the star rating of the center the child attends. Additional information about Louisiana’s tax credits is available in the “Provider Incentives and Support” section.

Talk about steering parents in the direction the government wants them to go in. Providers who choose not to earn the maximum amount of stars will obviously not be getting as many interested clients as those who have lots of stars.
******************************************************************************************************************************

This whole thing reminds me of The Sneetches, by Dr. Seuss.....

"Now, the Star-Bell Sneetches had bellies with stars.
The Plain-Belly Sneetches had none upon thars.
Those stars weren’t so big. They were really so small.
You might think such a thing wouldn’t matter at all.

But, because they had stars, all the Star-Belly Sneetches
Would brag, “We’re the best kind of Sneetch on the beaches.”
With their snoots in the air, they would sniff and they’d snort
“We’ll have nothing to do with the Plain-Belly sort!”
And, whenever they met some, when they were out walking,
They’d hike right on past them without even talking."



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Willow 12:15 PM 11-29-2012
Originally Posted by Heidi:

I am participating in Younstar, and there are some good things...but I have not "drank the koolaid" by a long shot.

LMAO!!!!

My goal would be the same. To participate and achieve a perfect rating and then blast the living heck out of it. If I score low people will assume I'm just bitter and whining. If I master it I can share what a load of crock it is and hopefully make an impact on at least my local community that way.

I'd have no problem spreading the word that although the country provider up the road who has been providing licensed childcare for decades only has two stars and I've got five, that she's got loads more experience than I do and absolutely is a top of the line option for prospective parents.
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Meeko 12:38 PM 11-29-2012
Provider #1

Comes out of high school not knowing what she wants to do. Daddy buys her an education anyway. After graduation, she marries Daddy's pick and moves into her nice home. Bored......she opens a home daycare. Lots of spare money to spend on all the fancy equipment and furnishings and latest toys. Lots of room for setting up centers/craft areas etc.

Licensing come and ooh and ahh over her great education and fancy set up. 5 stars. Then leave the bored kids with their dis-interested provider.

Provider #2

Been doing daycare for more years than Provider #1 has been alive.. Has an average home which she shares with her daycare kids. No room for many 'centers" etc. Not the very latest in toys, but plenty of good old fashioned blocks etc. She spends her time working with the kids and parents and is very respected. The kids LOVE her as have many, many before them. But licensing see she doesn't have a college education, doesn't have time for classes because she wants to spend that time with her own family and her home is average.
2 stars.

Guess which one I would rather take my child to? Except if I was a unknowing parent looking at the star ratings...I would automatically assume that #1 was the better choice.
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Blackcat31 12:40 PM 11-29-2012
Originally Posted by Meeko:
Provider #1

Comes out of high school not knowing what she wants to do. Daddy buys her an education anyway. After graduation, she marries Daddy's pick and moves into her nice home. Bored......she opens a home daycare. Lots of spare money to spend on all the fancy equipment and furnishings and latest toys. Lots of room for setting up centers/craft areas etc.

Licensing come and ooh and ahh over her great education and fancy set up. 5 stars. Then leave the bored kids with their dis-interested provider.

Provider #2

Been doing daycare for more years than Provider #1 has been alive.. Has an average home which she shares with her daycare kids. No room for many 'centers" etc. Not the very latest in toys, but plenty of good old fashioned blocks etc. She spends her time working with the kids and parents and is very respected. The kids LOVE her as have many, many before them. But licensing see she doesn't have a college education, doesn't have time for classes because she wants to spend that time with her own family and her home is average.
2 stars.

Guess which one I would rather take my child to? Except if I was a unknowing parent looking at the star ratings...I would automatically assume that #1 was the better choice.
Plus you would get financial perks for choosing "correctly"....
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Meeko 12:41 PM 11-29-2012
Originally Posted by Heidi:


I am participating in Younstar, and there are some good things...but I have not "drank the koolaid" by a long shot.
Sadly, you will be forced to drink it soon.
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Crystal 12:58 PM 11-29-2012
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
If you are implying that I don't like the idea and am trying to scare people away, that is NOT true. I happen to be involved with our states rating system right now, and the ONE consistent thing I know to be true is that there are MORE regulations and rules to follow. There are now "right" and "wrong" ways to do EVERYTHING and child care providers will no longer have as much say in how their programs are run now unless they aren't concerned about how many stars they have or don't have.


Not implying that YOU are...not at all! Alot of "people" are though.



I also think, and have said so a hundred times, that there should be some consistency as to how the child care world works and functions when it comes to provider education but when the program disallows a providers college education and years and years of experience, then it isn't in the best interest of the small business owner any more.

I certainly believe that experience should count for something, however, experience is not an indicator of quality. I know several providers who have been in the business for years that I wouldn't allow to watch my dog, much less my child. I think if experience IS to count, there MUST be some way of indicating the quality of care and that DEVELOPMENTALLY APPROPRIATE PRACTICES are being utilized.

Our state's program recognizes college degrees and coursework that has been taken ONLY within the last 5 years. If you have a master's degree in education, it doesn't count unless it was earned within those guidelines. If you have 20 years of experience, it doesn't count for anything unless you take the coursework they want you to take.

I have not researched all of the States QRIS guidelines, but I would think this is probably unique to your state. THIS is EXACTLY one of the reasons why providers should be advocating and attempting to particpate in the actual development of the QRIS before it is mandatory. I have been involved in the process of our county since the beginning discussions and there were alot of initial concepts they were going to impose that ended up being removed based on the feedback of providers....one issue, for instance, was that Providers would have to have a bachelor's degree to recieve 4 stars and a Master's degree to achieve 5....they changed it to an AA and a BA for FCCH with Centers still having to achieve the BA and MA because of resources available to them and the time available to attend formal training.

I also have issue with the fact that providers who do not do some sort of organized curriculum (approved by the state) they cannot earn more than 1 or 2 stars. That makes their program look less than quality when that is not always the case.

This will be on a State by State basis as well, but I do know in Ca. we will be required to use "curriculum" but there is no dictation as to what that curriculum is, so long as we meet the Preschool Learning Foundations, which are based on DAP and PLAY. So, I use emergent curriculum, and that would not change....the only thing that would change is that I am actually showing proof that it is being implemented

Providers who offer play based curriculum and spend their time focusing on the rest, food and quality of care itself will be overlooked.
I don't believe this to be true, at all.

Providers can only earn max stars or recognition when they providee written lesson plans,

These lesson plans can still be play based....but will require that we are showing parents what children are actually learning through those play based experiences....I think that is GREAT.....parents question all the time what their children are learning if they are "just playing" and providers tend to complain about it....SO let's show them!!!

proof of observation and assessment for each child in care, proof of parent involvment and etc...

Many providers just want to CARE for kids NOT teach them academic things and academic success and preparedness for school is the main focus or intent of the star rating system, in my opinion, so I guess you can take it however you want, but a system that does not recognize and reward ALL the different types of programs is wrong in my opinion.

no one will stop providers from that. The difference will be that those who do not get in line with the new requirements will be considered "babysitters" rather than Early Care and Education programs. Many parents will still highly values thier services, but will likely expect to pay a lower rate, etc.

I think giving parents the false sense that one program is better or worth more than another just because of stars is also wrong. Yes, each provider can choose to earn as many stars as their state allows but in order to earn those stars you have to meet their requirements.

I don't think it is a false sense......a program with higher stars WILL be higher quality. Just like a hotel or a restaraunt....those with higher stars typically ARE higher quality. I agree that experience is great, but it is NOT an indicator of quality. I would certainly choose a provider with no formal education for my children if a provider had years of experience and could SHOW ME that she understands what is DAP and that her program is high quality, but I'd be more inclined to chosse a provider with both education and experience first.

Nan was/is a perfect example of the type of provider who will not benefit from a star system. She has a fantastic, well run QUALITY program but wouldn't be highly rated or given too many stars because she doesn't offer a structured state approved curriculum and she doesn't have a 2,4 or higher degree in education.

You're right, she is one who will not benefit from it. But she is also one of those providers who HAS THE CHOICE to earn those stars or not. I feel that this is no different than any other business that wants to be seen as high quality......the proof has to be there. Just SAYING that you provide a quality program doesn't mean that you do.
What it comes down to for me is, if we want to be taken seriously as professionals, then why should we not be held to the same standards of other professionals? We expect other service professionals to prove to us that they are worthy of our consumerism, why shouldn't parents expect the same IF NOT MORE, from the people who care for thier children?
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DCMom 01:04 PM 11-29-2012
Blackcat, Meeko and Willow have pretty much said everything I wanted to say. Especially about enforcing the regulations that we already have in place. Most of us have the integrity to self-regulate and could pass a drop in visit from licensing at any time; we take the time to spend time teaching in a variety of ways. Just as there are many ways to learn, there are many ways to teach ~ but as usual it is the few changing it for the many.

In the case of rating systems ~ Minnesota's is called Parent Aware. It has been in a pilot phase for about 4 years I think, but it is in full roll out right now. Still voluntary at this point, but they are pushing it hard to providers. Most parents that I have talked to have never heard of it, so don't try and tell me it is a tool for parents...but I digress, lol!

I have been in this business for 20+ years. I strive for excellence in everything I do, so anything less than 4 stars I would consider failure for myself. Call me a perfectionist I guess. I would have no problem reaching a 4 in each content area...except for the college degree. I graduated in 1984 with a BA in Accounting and Business Administration; am I using that degree? You bet I am! But does it count toward my Parent Aware Rating? Nope. It is very frustrating for those of us with years and years of experience, who have no desire to spend the time or the money to return to school and get a degree at 50 years old. It has it's good points and it's bad, it's just not for me. My business is already successful with no help from from a rating system ~ so could you please just leave me alone?

For those of us in MN, the 'attack' (my word, my feelings) on FCC is coming from all sides. The last few years they have been trying to get everyone on board with Parent Aware; the requirements change slightly with each cohort, it seems. I firmly believe that it will eventually be mandatory once they stop tweaking it. Last year it was Governor Dayton and his executive order for daycare providers to unionize. Then the Star Trib and its series of hit pieces on Family Child Care. Those articles resulted in the Child Mortality Review Panel whose recommendations to our legislature will destroy home childcare as we know it (again, my opinion). MLFCCA is presenting it's rebuttal to DHS today, who will in turn decide what goes into the proposed legislation. But there are no guarantees. Our child/adult ratios could be severely lowered among many other things. The real kicker? There was not one person in attendance that could explain how the ratio changes would be implemented. I guess we have to pass it to see how it works, right? That is pretty much what the DHS supervisor in attendance suggested.

I'm tired. I have been to so many meetings in the last two weeks regarding this stuff that my head is spinning, but I have to stay on top of it or I will be out of business. If you are in MN, you NEED to be paying attention. Change is all around you.

Why can't I just do what I do best? If it ain't broke, don't make me fix it.
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Crystal 01:10 PM 11-29-2012
Originally Posted by Country Kids:
We will have a 5 star system.

I went to the pilot project meeting and expressed my desire to do this. Right now I more then likely won't get 3 stars. I have run a highly successful business for 17 years but because of not specifically running my program the way they want, I couldn't get stars.

There really won't be any individuality in childcare anymore. They will all pretty much be cookie cutter. I don't agree. Even in State funded preschools there is a TON of individuality, with all different types of philosophies and various types of curriculum. The only difference is that now there will be some requirements into the setting in which care is provided, the competency of the caregivers, (meaning they understand and implement DAP and Best Practices), etc.

I don't have the room for what they are wanting for one thing. I don't have the space for individual centers, space for children to be alone, reading nooks, childsize size furniture for each size of child, and the list goes on.I am not sure what Oregon's model looks like, but in Ca. this would just mean that we have to offer a learning environment....there are ways to do that, even in the tiniest of spaces, you just have to get very creative

I don't even have the freedom to choose my own curriculum. They have it listed what we can use. Do you know what curricukum they have selected? I'd be interested in taking a look at it.

The guidelines are 25 pages long and I probably couldn't even get a 1/4 of the stuff. I really want someone to come in and show me how to do this because one its overwhelming and two I don't understand how I'm going to be able to do it in the home I have now. There will be support from the State to implement changes in your program. Here, they are going to pay for observers, assessors,,etc. to come out and HELP providers achieve the stars. Providers are not just going to be left high and dry having to figure all of this out on their own. There will be extensive support and resources, especially for those of us who are getting involved at the beginning. They will also be paying college tuition, providing materials for our environments to enhance the learning environment and curriculum, etc.

Education, education, education I understand for children that are ready for it. I have really learned about this over the years from my own experience with my children. Upon talking to several doctors, therapists, and mental health specialists, the average child isn't even ready for school type learning till 8 years old. That is when their brain is ready to take off with the reading/math/ and most subjects. With todays standards, they want to start at birth it seems. Did you know there is talk of getting kindergarten started at 4 and having kids graduate when they are juniors instead of seniors! Lets get them into school earlier/work force earlier and why not just jump our death age up why we are at it. When will people realize that we need down time to enjoy life and just see quietness. Ok, I better get down now-
I undertsand your concerns, really I do, but I remember you talking before about how much you enjoy attending workshops/trainings, etc. This could be an AWESOME opportunity for you to get a college education for free, and give you opportunites to grow, both personally and professionally.
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Country Kids 01:19 PM 11-29-2012
Heres what I know from our guidelines:

You have to pick one of their choosen curriculums. We have a list of what they are.

Just because you have higher star does not mean its better quality-that is giving parents a very, very false sense. I could have a five star program but that doesn't even mean I have experience working really well with children. Everything maybe picture perfect but in the end experience is what it takes with ANY job. I have eaten/stayed at some pretty high ranking places and it the end they gave me no more then the other places. They gave me food to eat/a bed to sleep on and life went on. They may have had a few perks but you know what, it was once in a life time thing and nothing I could afford to do on a monthly basis. Parents aren't going to be able to afford "ritz" month after month.

We can't do play based from what I can tell. It was even commented on when some directors where looking at it that it wasn't an option.

I am a professional and know many people who are professionals and don't have a "shingle" to hang up to prove it to the world. What I do have it years of word of mouth that gets me 95% of my business. My first two children ever to watch are going to school to be a cardiologist and a nutritionist/dietician. We played,played,played/did crafts and some preschool. Both of them turned out incrediably well and tell me they loved coming to my childcare. That means the world to me over having to invest into a program that I might not even score high into.
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Crystal 01:20 PM 11-29-2012
Originally Posted by My3cents:
I don't agree with this...... I think it is money driven-

This is COSTING the States money. They aren't making money off of this, so I would have to disagree with you there.

I also feel that one way of doing childcare is not the only way or the right way. Cookie Cutter mind set and most of the time set by pencil pushers, who don't take care of children day in and day out.

They aren't going to be making us all have the exact same approach to early care and education. It doesn't have to be "cookie-cutter" it just has to be PROVABLE that we practice what is developmentally appropriate for children. And, it isn't just pencil-pushers who don't work with children that are pushing these standards. A large majority of those involved are US, the providers on the front line, who have witnessed outrageous situations in child care programs who are standing up and saying ENOUGH.....let's set those of us who run quality programs apart from those who don't. Those of us who have been involved in this fight have had enough of being considered babysitters because parents percieve us as such, rather then the professionals that we are.

It is scary for all of us that have been doing this for years but don't have the "education degree" It is scary because it threatens our business.

I agree, it is scary. BUT, there has been (in states already implementing it) and will be in states that are beginning it, AMPLE time for providers to further their education. I understand not all providers want to participate in formal education, but that will be thier choice, and will be up to them if they recieve the higher level of ratings. I say act now, so that it doesn't threaten your business. I also say, again, we expect other service professionals to have an education, why should it be any different for those of us that are raising other people's children?

I could go on, but am not going too, and I am not looking to cause a heated debate. This is my personal view about this subject. I respect that some of you are for it, just respect those of us that are not for it and have been doing childcare for years.
I respect that some are against it too. I understand the fear, I understand that some feel they are losing control of their own business, etc. For those of you who feel this way, I say, get involved while they are still in the process of setting up these systems. They really do want to hear your voice and your voice CAN make a difeerence in how it is implemented in your State.....I know, because I have witnessed it first hand.
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Crystal 01:24 PM 11-29-2012
Originally Posted by Childminder:
We have just implemented the QRIS in MI and had to have our reviews submitted by Nov 30th. I do not care for the rating system because even though I have 100% in every catergory except Education, because I do not have an early childhood degree or CDA I will never get higher than a 1 star in the 5 star rating system. My 47 years of experience count for nothing. I am NOT going back to school.

I just learned Monday that next year instead of 10 hours of required childcare classes we have to have 24. When am I going to take care of the children?

Hopefully I can still get children until I have to retire. Since I didn't win last nights Powerball I guess it will be a few more years.
Can I ask, why you are against going back to school? (I am NOT being judgemental, I am just curious, as I know alot of providers feel this way)I know it's alot of work, and is time consuming, but it is SO rewarding. Even with my many years of experience, when I went back to school and started learning about child development and DAP, I learned how much I DIDN'T know that I thought I did know and my program was transformed by it!

I think 24 hours of training is completely acceptable. That is only 2 hours per month, which really shouldn't cut in to when you care for children.
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daycare 01:29 PM 11-29-2012
Originally Posted by Crystal:
Can I ask, why you are against going back to school? (I am NOT being judgemental, I am just curious, as I know alot of providers feel this way)I know it's alot of work, and is time consuming, but it is SO rewarding. Even with my many years of experience, when I went back to school and started learning about child development and DAP, I learned how much I DIDN'T know that I thought I did know and my program was transformed by it!

I think 24 hours of training is completely acceptable. That is only 2 hours per month, which really shouldn't cut in to when you care for children.
I don't know a lot about all of this, so this is a great thread. Crystal, I am on board with what you are saying and I am in school now and can't wait to see my hardwork pay off in the end. I am so ready to be treated with respect and seen as a preschool teacher and not a babysitter, because this IS why I went back to school.

Please keep givng all of your great information
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Country Kids 01:32 PM 11-29-2012
Originally Posted by Crystal:
I undertsand your concerns, really I do, but I remember you talking before about how much you enjoy attending workshops/trainings, etc. This could be an AWESOME opportunity for you to get a college education for free, and give you opportunites to grow, both personally and professionally.
Oh, there isn't any college education involved in this. We will have people that will be "mentors" but it will be like 1 per 40 providers. Nothing was discussed in us receiving any types of materials or things like that. Pilot starts in Feb. and they still don't know how to figure out who is going to participate.
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daycare 01:34 PM 11-29-2012
I do wonder how in the world is CA going to support the man power for this program? Where will the funding come from? It's bad enough that we are not monitored enough as it is. I get a lic visit once every 3-4 years...

thats a really scary thought
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Crystal 01:35 PM 11-29-2012
Originally Posted by Lucy:
Holy cow, now I'm scared of this program. I wish I hadn't agreed to be on the naming committee for it! Don't be scared of it. Get involved and help shape the way it is implemented!

I agree with everything My3C said, but I think instead of it being money driven, it was cover-your-ass driven. There have been many cases of abuse at DC's, and the gov't wants to cover their asses. Forgive my French. This is likely PART of it, but it is also that research has proven, time and time again, that quality care leads to better outcomes for children and families.

So I'm that Provider who doesn't want to take classes on ECE, and I really don't want to do a formal curriculum. I teach my DC kids every day. Just yesterday we went to the grocery store and the 4-yr olds were champs at finding fruits that began with A, counting how many to put in the bag, etc. That's only a small example, but I take literally EVERY opportunity to teach them something. Whether it's math when we figure out how many Nilla Wafers we all get if there are 10 in the box, whether it's shapes that I cut their toast into, etc. I could go on and on. The school-agers are sick of me asking if they know how to spell such-and-such, or if they understand this or that from the newspaper. I'm literally teaching ALL day long. But I don't desire to do a formal curriculum, let alone the packaged curriculums that the state would require me to do.

What you are doing IS curriuclum, and if I were you, would ARGUE that. When I participated in the Preschool Bridging Model Pilot program here, they tried to insist that we use open court curriculum. I refused, arguing that it was not developmentally appropriate. I stated my case, I gave solid evidence that the curriculum I use IS DAP and they ended up changing it and removing the Open Court Curriculum from the program. I ended up being a Model for the PBM and they implemented emergent curriuclum and play based standards in their programs. If you do not like something, you have to advocate for it to be changed, otherwise, it will be what they want it to be

And I DO NOT want state oversight of what I'm doing. A 90-minute inspection visit every 2 years is plenty, thank you. I don't think there will be alot of additonal inspections, etc. In the beginning, as they are helping providers adjust to and achieve the stars, there will be more visits, but they won't be inspections, they will be collaborative meetings with providers to assess the needs for resources, materials, education etc. that they can assist providers with. There will be FCCERS conducted, etc. but it will be once every few years, not random, unnanounced drop ins and the like, licensing will still control all of that.

I'm not on the food program because I got sick of the girl telling me not to serve strawberries 2 days in a row, or that 3 vegetable choices were not enough in one month. (I made those up because I don't remember the specifics of what she would gripe about, but you get the picture.) Anyway, so does this mean I'll be a lowly 1-star Provider and that parents will see my measly 1 star next to someone else's 3 and I'll look like a loser? I've done this for 18 years and I gotta say, I do a GREAT job. I have sent many kids to Kindergarten who were pretty much at a 1st grade level partly because of my daily "teachings". I'm every bit as capable, reliable, safe, loving, caring, nurturing, etc., etc. as the 3-star ladies are. Nothing against them, it's just not what I want to do. This pretty much sucks.

Ok, so that being said, what kind of names can I suggest? They're paying me 50 bucks to go to this meeting... I should come up with something, don't you think? lol. And I'm asking seriously. I realize there's a temptation to name it derogatory names because we don't like it, but I really need some help here. Thanks, ladies.
"Reach for the STARS!"
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Rubysmom 01:36 PM 11-29-2012
I am another Minnesota provider against the changes on the horizon. How can I have a BS degree in Child Development, and it doesn't count because I graduated more than 5 years ago? Ridiculous! I too elieve family child care is on its way out. Sad. It is going to be extremely expensive for infant care in the future.
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Crystal 01:36 PM 11-29-2012
Originally Posted by daycare:
I do wonder how in the world is CA going to support the man power for this program? Where will the funding come from? It's bad enough that we are not monitored enough as it is. I get a lic visit once every 3-4 years...

thats a really scary thought
California recieved a $50 million grant form the Race to the Top Early Learning Challenge from the Federal Government. There will be more funding after the Pilot program.
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daycare 01:38 PM 11-29-2012
Originally Posted by Crystal:
California recieved a $50 million grant form the Race to the Top Early Learning Challenge from the Federal Government. There will be more funding after the Pilot program.
wow that is amazing... I did not learn this before you telling me....

Just to think too I am on the round table email list and I heard nothing of this
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Country Kids 01:41 PM 11-29-2012
Curriculum:

Infant/Toddler

Highscope Infant/Toddler
Beyond Cribs/Rattles

Preschool

The creative Curriculum
HighScope
Opening the World Of Learning

Family Care

The creative Curriculum

Now if ours isn't listed we have to write how it meets the criteria. MMM, I might think it meets it but they might not.
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Heidi 01:45 PM 11-29-2012
Originally Posted by Meeko:
Provider #1

Comes out of high school not knowing what she wants to do. Daddy buys her an education anyway. After graduation, she marries Daddy's pick and moves into her nice home. Bored......she opens a home daycare. Lots of spare money to spend on all the fancy equipment and furnishings and latest toys. Lots of room for setting up centers/craft areas etc.

Licensing come and ooh and ahh over her great education and fancy set up. 5 stars. Then leave the bored kids with their dis-interested provider.

Provider #2

Been doing daycare for more years than Provider #1 has been alive.. Has an average home which she shares with her daycare kids. No room for many 'centers" etc. Not the very latest in toys, but plenty of good old fashioned blocks etc. She spends her time working with the kids and parents and is very respected. The kids LOVE her as have many, many before them. But licensing see she doesn't have a college education, doesn't have time for classes because she wants to spend that time with her own family and her home is average.
2 stars.

Guess which one I would rather take my child to? Except if I was a unknowing parent looking at the star ratings...I would automatically assume that #1 was the better choice.
well, to be fair, neither of those providers would be a 5 star. Provider 1 does not engage actively with the children (unless she's an outstanding actress come rating time), doesn't assess the children's development, doesnt plan activities, doesn't do portfolios, doesn't have a business plan or a budget, and a few other things I can't think of right now.

Provider 2 is missing some of these things and the education component....

There is some variation in each state, for sure.
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Country Kids 01:50 PM 11-29-2012
What if your stars are kinda all over the place? How will that work? Say you have 3/4/5 but not everything is lining up.
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Willow 01:51 PM 11-29-2012
Originally Posted by Crystal:
Can I ask, why you are against going back to school?

Only speaking for myself - I am busy enough running a business 10 hours a day, taking care of my family while my husband works out on the road 4 out of the 7 days a week, we are desperately trying to have another baby which means loads of doctors appointments, our children have homework and extracurricular activities, I have a very large and close family that likes to spend time with us both in and out of town, I like to have at least a little bit of time for my own hobbies........simply put there would be absolutely no time for me to take on trying to get another education on top of that.

Add to that, I am dyslexic so course work/book learning is incredibly difficult for me. I got through it once, I have no desire to put myself through it again.


24 hours of training a year I could more than manage, and I plan to obtain my Montessori certification because I've read that's creditable, but going back and getting another college degree.....no way.

I could care less if it's free.


There would be nothing rewarding to me about being forced into participating in something that is going to take time away from my life that I don't have time to give to learn things I already know.
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Meeko 01:53 PM 11-29-2012
Originally Posted by Crystal:
I respect that some are against it too. I understand the fear, I understand that some feel they are losing control of their own business, etc. For those of you who feel this way, I say, get involved while they are still in the process of setting up these systems. They really do want to hear your voice and your voice CAN make a difeerence in how it is implemented in your State.....I know, because I have witnessed it first hand.
My state doesn't want to hear anything from providers. Meetings at 10AM on Monday mornings???? Please.

If they REALLY wanted feedback, they would have meetings at times when providers could actually go without having to shut down their daycare. It's all smoke and mirrors and pretending to listen.
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Crystal 01:54 PM 11-29-2012
Originally Posted by Willow:
It's been proven time and time again that more policies, more rules, more laws, are never the answer to an issue like this.

Would you say the same for restaraunts, medical facilities, dental offices, elementary schools etc?

ENFORCEMENT of current standards is. I agree that this needs to happen. However, many current standards are very dated and need to be realigned to support current research.


If you think creating more rules is going to stop the Jessica Tata's of the world you are sadly mistaken. People that don't give a hoot and don't care to stay in compliance never will.

I definitley think more rules would help stop people like her. Just knowing the requirements to meet the standards would scare alot of people like her away from ever even considering opening a child care program.


I say take all the money they plan on dumping into this crap and put it towards hiring more licensing workers to enforce what's already on the books. If that can't be maintained how in the heck do they expect to keep up with so much more???

The money to support the QRIS is coming from the federal government. This will provide more resources to licensing agencies as well.

I haven't seen or heard from my licensing workers since January and when she was here I knew more about what she needed to be doing and checking for than she did.

THAT'S the problem. That is definitley a problem. BUT, a year is nothing.....it was 6 years before I finally had an unnanounced inspection this year. Part of the problem is that licensing spends most of their time investigating complaints.....which would occur less if there were more regulation in to what constitutes quality care.

The fact that she hasn't been around to check to see if I am in compliance for all that time? Anyone can put on a show for a day and a college degree has nothing to do with keeping kids safe. A college degree doesn't, but SOME sort of education in to safe practices does. It's why pediatricians can still be child molesters, it's why business CEO's can still run Ponzi schemes This can happen in ANY profession, degree or not. It is not a good argument to NOT have a degree, or at least SOME professional training. and it's proof that whether or not Jessica Tata had a piece of paper on the wall saying she read a bunch of about caring for children safely has nothing to do with whether or not she actually will. Perhaps if she DID, she wouldn't have done what she did and those children would still be alive.


A degree is nothing more than a promise made by a stranger. "I have this paper so please trust my intentions are good." I disagree, and am actually insulted by this remark. I ahve worked VERY hard and will finally have my Master's Degree in May. I actually did it for myself, not for my business, but it shows to parents that I am committed to my work with children, that I care about what is Developmentally appropriate for their children, that I am knowledgeable and concerned about best practices. My degree is not at all a piece of paper that I use to make people think I am doing a good job when I am not.

Experience and reputation however is tried and true PROOF. "I have all of these years I've SHOWN my intentions, so you KNOW they are good."

Experience is not proof.....it is GREAT but it is not proof. Anyone can SAY they are doing a good job....there was a case recently in which a very experienced provider was found to have been doping babies and putting them in dark closets all day so they would sleep. She had experience and no formal education. For years everyone thought she was a great provider. Then they found out the truth.
I replied in bold above
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Country Kids 01:54 PM 11-29-2012
Originally Posted by daycare:
I don't know a lot about all of this, so this is a great thread. Crystal, I am on board with what you are saying and I am in school now and can't wait to see my hardwork pay off in the end. I am so ready to be treated with respect and seen as a preschool teacher and not a babysitter, because this IS why I went back to school.

Please keep givng all of your great information
From the meetings I haven't heard anything about us getting to go to school on them.

Now it would probably take me about 5 years to even get a 2 year degree. Then I'm stil going to be working for the same wages. How is that going to help me? I'm not going to be able to outprice myself because I have a degree. I'm still working in my home and its not going to get any bigger so I'm not going to be able to take any more kids.

I have a friend right now that graduated at 50 and all the money they make are going back into paying off loans. Also, the only job they could find was being a teachers aid-definetly not what they went to school for, barely making above minimum wage.
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daycare 01:58 PM 11-29-2012
Originally Posted by Country Kids:
From the meetings I haven't heard anything about us getting to go to school on them.

Now it would probably take me about 5 years to even get a 2 year degree. Then I'm stil going to be working for the same wages. How is that going to help me? I'm not going to be able to outprice myself because I have a degree. I'm still working in my home and its not going to get any better so I'm not going to be able to take any more kids.

I have a friend right now that graduated at 50 and all the money they make are going back into paying off loans. Also, the only job they could find was being a teachers aid-definetly not what they went to school for, barely making above minimum wage.
gee CK you are really making my dream of owning my own gym become more of a reality.

I am in school now and while I love it, I still have a way to go. But yes, I a paying out of the you know what to go to school. and don't blast me for this, but I am soooooo tired of being told NO you can't get any grants, but I see people left and right getting them all day every day when I go to the admission office at school.
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Crystal 02:04 PM 11-29-2012
Originally Posted by Rubysmom:
I am another Minnesota provider against the changes on the horizon. How can I have a BS degree in Child Development, and it doesn't count because I graduated more than 5 years ago? Ridiculous! I too elieve family child care is on its way out. Sad. It is going to be extremely expensive for infant care in the future.
I wonder, will it count if you take some refresher courses? I disagree with them discounting degrees that were achieved 5 years ago, but if it was 10-15-20 years ago, there should def. be some requirement to update the degree, as a lot of research has changed the way ECE is viewed.
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Country Kids 02:06 PM 11-29-2012
Originally Posted by daycare:
gee CK you are really making my dream of owning my own gym become more of a reality.

I am in school now and while I love it, I still have a way to go. But yes, I a paying out of the you know what to go to school. and don't blast me for this, but I am soooooo tired of being told NO you can't get any grants, but I see people left and right getting them all day every day when I go to the admission office at school.

I'll fly down and be your first member-

Oh, I so know what you mean about paying for schooling. My daugher only received loans! No job, no saving, no nothing and has loans. I know they go off of our income but last time I checked our family was making less then the year before. Very, very frustrating. Its like we fall in that whole of not being poor enough/rich enough. Just the middle man=
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Crystal 02:06 PM 11-29-2012
Originally Posted by Country Kids:
Curriculum:

Infant/Toddler

Highscope Infant/Toddler
Beyond Cribs/Rattles

Preschool

The creative Curriculum
HighScope
Opening the World Of Learning

Family Care

The creative Curriculum

Now if ours isn't listed we have to write how it meets the criteria. MMM, I might think it meets it but they might not.
Creative Curriculum is FABULOUS!!!!! I think, given a chance, you would LOVE it!!! It is very play and relationship based!!! And, see, you have an option of arguing to use your own curriculum!! That is GOOD!
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Crystal 02:09 PM 11-29-2012
Originally Posted by Meeko:
My state doesn't want to hear anything from providers. Meetings at 10AM on Monday mornings???? Please.

If they REALLY wanted feedback, they would have meetings at times when providers could actually go without having to shut down their daycare. It's all smoke and mirrors and pretending to listen.
Yeah....that makes it difficult. Ours are held in the evening. If I were you, I'd write a letter demanding to be included in meetings that are accessible outside of business hours.
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Country Kids 02:10 PM 11-29-2012
Originally Posted by Crystal:
Creative Curriculum is FABULOUS!!!!! I think, given a chance, you would LOVE it!!! It is very play and relationship based!!! And, see, you have an option of arguing to use your own curriculum!! That is GOOD!
See though I use all types of curriculum depending on the year. This year we are finishing up MGT, next year I'm using another curriculum, then I probably will just be using everything up and not have a curriculum. Kinda like what ever is left is used.
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daycare 02:10 PM 11-29-2012
Originally Posted by Country Kids:
I'll fly down and be your first member-

Oh, I so know what you mean about paying for schooling. My daugher only received loans! No job, no saving, no nothing and has loans. I know they go off of our income but last time I checked our family was making less then the year before. Very, very frustrating. Its like we fall in that whole of not being poor enough/rich enough. Just the middle man=
yeah well my husband just finished medical school and let me tell you how broke we are about to be. Lets just say his first 5 years of work will just about cover it, but that would mean we are applying every penny that he makes to his loans...Yeah not going to happen.

I guess really, there is no greater fear than the fear of the unknown and not knowing where this is leading, scares me....
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Crystal 02:11 PM 11-29-2012
Originally Posted by Country Kids:
What if your stars are kinda all over the place? How will that work? Say you have 3/4/5 but not everything is lining up.
Here, is an overall score, so it will be calculated much like the FCCRS, however you have to mewet everything in the 1 star section to go to the 2. After that they add the numbers up and you are given your stars based on the total number, not each category.
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daycare 02:13 PM 11-29-2012
OMG I am going to pass out....

looked into some of the cost of these programs, creative curriculum is


Price: $2,149.00

Really, who is going to pay for that? ME?????
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Country Kids 02:13 PM 11-29-2012
Originally Posted by Crystal:
Here, is an overall score, so it will be calculated much like the FCCRS, however you have to mewet everything in the 1 star section to go to the 2. After that they add the numbers up and you are given your stars based on the total number, not each category.
Here you just have to have a liscense to get 1 star.

2 stars mean you will commit to the program

3 stars is where everything starts falling into place.

Alot of providers (older) will probably stick with 1 star.
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Country Kids 02:17 PM 11-29-2012
Originally Posted by daycare:
OMG I am going to pass out....

looked into some of the cost of these programs, creative curriculum is


Price: $2,149.00

Really, who is going to pay for that? ME?????
What !!!!!!!!

I thought it was just books we were having to order-

I have an instantly bad headache all of a sudden!
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Crystal 02:19 PM 11-29-2012
Originally Posted by daycare:
OMG I am going to pass out....

looked into some of the cost of these programs, creative curriculum is


Price: $2,149.00

Really, who is going to pay for that? ME?????
You won't be required to use that. And, Ca. WILL be providing resources, so many things will be provided for you! Please, refresh my memory, what County are you in? Your county may not even participate until 2015 if you are not one og the 17 counties involved right now. They will also be paying for college coursework
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daycare 02:20 PM 11-29-2012
Originally Posted by Crystal:
You won't be required to use that. And, Ca. WILL be providing resources, so many things will be provided for you! Please, refresh my memory, what County are you in? Your county may not even participate until 2015 if you are not one og the 17 counties involved right now. They will also be paying for college coursework
contra costa, but moving to santa clara in about 5 months
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Country Kids 02:20 PM 11-29-2012
OH MY GOSH!!!!

Lucy, I haven't forgot the original question! I emailed you some names I thought were catchy.
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Blackcat31 02:22 PM 11-29-2012
Originally Posted by Crystal:
I wonder, will it count if you take some refresher courses? I disagree with them discounting degrees that were achieved 5 years ago, but if it was 10-15-20 years ago, there should def. be some requirement to update the degree, as a lot of research has changed the way ECE is viewed.
Yes, you can take refresher courses....well they aren't even refresher courses, you just have to take a certain courses that they approve and what is getting under everyone's skin is those courses are repeats of what we already spent 100's, if not 1,000 of hours and dollars already taking these courses in college to earn the degree.

Why not give credit for the courses taken, offer a refresher or even offer a part two of the course rather than require the provider to give up their time off to take a class they already took?

For example, Observation and Evaluation. I took this course in college for a full semester. Worth 4 credits. QRIS requires that I take this course again (in a condensed 6-8 week time line) at my own expense and on my own time yet openly admits that I will not be learning any new information as the course was designed for those providers that have never done any evaluating and/or observing training.

What a complete waste of everyone's time and money.

Why not offer me an extention of what I was already taught or offer me an updated course?

Plus, you say the money for this comes from the federal government...where does the federal government get it? I highly doubt the President is writting a check out of his own pocket to fund these grants.

Same goes for the "bonus" money they are offering providers in my state to sign up. They will give you $550-1000 to sign up and start implementing the rating system within my program but the things I am allowed to spend this grant money is laughable at best....
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Country Kids 02:28 PM 11-29-2012
"Plus, you say the money for this comes from the federal government...where does the federal government get it? I highly doubt the President is writting a check out of his own pocket to fund these grants."

I was just thinking the same thing as I went to take some aspirin! If CA/OR/WA is doing this plus other start up states where is the government getting this money from.

Use it to pay down the debts of our country!! The kids are really going to be ok, our debts are not.
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Willow 02:29 PM 11-29-2012
Originally Posted by Crystal:

Would you say the same for restaraunts, medical facilities, dental offices, elementary schools etc?
Absolutely, across the board.


Originally Posted by Crystal:
I definitley think more rules would help stop people like her. Just knowing the requirements to meet the standards would scare alot of people like her away from ever even considering opening a child care program.

Please tell me how more rules and regulations written down in a state licensing policy handbook would have prevented Jessica Tata from leaving the children in her care alone while she left the premises with a boiling pot of oil on her stove.......

Because I can tell you how enforcement would have.



Originally Posted by Crystal:
The money to support the QRIS is coming from the federal government.
And where do you think the federal government is getting "their" money from?


A degree is nothing more than a promise made by a stranger. "I have this paper so please trust my intentions are good."

Originally Posted by Crystal:
I disagree, and am actually insulted by this remark. I ahve worked VERY hard and will finally have my Master's Degree in May. I actually did it for myself, not for my business, but it shows to parents that I am committed to my work with children, that I care about what is Developmentally appropriate for their children, that I am knowledgeable and concerned about best practices. My degree is not at all a piece of paper that I use to make people think I am doing a good job when I am not.
This isn't about you though. It is what it is. Earning a degree has nothing to do with a persons ability or desire to execute what they learned. Just because you may choose to use it and use it well, doesn't mean by a long shot all or even many people do. I know so many people who have degrees who either don't use them at all or they stink at what they do despite them. A degree is not a guarantee that anyone will ever use what they learned or use it appropriately.

Your last sentence contradicts the rest of your above. If you aren't using your degree to make people think you are doing a good job then why do you say you are using it to show parents that you are committed to your work with children, that you care about what is developmentally appropriate for the children in your care, that you are knowledgeable and concerned about best practices. Isn't it the same thing?

Not picking on you, just trying to understand.

I feel like I do those things everyday as demonstrated through my actions, I am very sure you do as well. However important of an achievement it is to you, I don't believe you need your degree to prove those things to the parents of the kids in your care.

I am very sure there are individuals with the same degree as you've managed to obtain who are just awful people. Having it doesn't suddenly make someone inherently able to handle this career or perform all associated tasks well.

The child behaviorist/psychologist I mention in another thread shared with me once that as much book smarts as she had, they didn't hold a candle to my instincts. That meant the WORLD to me. She could tell me everything I needed to know about why this that or the other in a way I could have never learned, and I could work directly with the kids in my care in a way she couldn't. That right there is exactly my point. We both recognized our talents and stuck with what we did best. Unfortunately, there are people who either refuse to acknowledge there is a difference, or just choose not to. If they are lacking they move forward anyway and that's when children end up in dire straits.

I went to a preschool reputed for the education level of it's providers and the curriculum it afforded it's enrollments. Still, I was hurt there in ways that would make you vomit.

How many private schools have been in the news lately for for the behavior of their very educated yet very very corrupt professors?

Originally Posted by Crystal:
Experience is not proof.....it is GREAT but it is not proof. Anyone can SAY they are doing a good job....there was a case recently in which a very experienced provider was found to have been doping babies and putting them in dark closets all day so they would sleep. She had experience and no formal education. For years everyone thought she was a great provider. Then they found out the truth.
Sure experience is proof. Proof you can at least keep children alive, which is more than can be said for a well educated yet green provider.

It's not a guarantee but it's better than having no experience at all.

Out of curiosity, do you believe the above provider did or didn't have an education?

Having an education may be great but isn't any sort of proof of anything either was the point I was trying to make there.




Thank you for keeping this civil despite it being a very hotly debated topic
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Crystal 02:38 PM 11-29-2012
Originally Posted by Country Kids:
"Plus, you say the money for this comes from the federal government...where does the federal government get it? I highly doubt the President is writting a check out of his own pocket to fund these grants."

I was just thinking the same thing as I went to take some aspirin! If CA/OR/WA is doing this plus other start up states where is the government getting this money from.

Use it to pay down the debts of our country!! The kids are really going to be ok, our debts are not.
I will have to look at where the oney initially came from....I do beleive it is from taxes on something.

The kids are not going to be okay if the state of education does not change, and it starts in early childhood.
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Willow 02:43 PM 11-29-2012
Lucy -
"Crash and Burn"

"GRFTGTCRUYB" (Acronym for - Get Ready For The Government To Crawl Right Up Your Butt)

"Puppets R Us"[/i]

"TFTFBIOH" (Acronym for - Thanks For The Fifty Bucks I'm Outta Here)




(kidding.....but only kind of........)


I do wish you luck tonight and hope it goes ok despite everyone scaring the carp out of you
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Country Kids 02:46 PM 11-29-2012
We have let the state of education change by letting the kids be in charge (my opinion)

I never went to preschool/kindergarten and graduated just fine.

I went anywhere from a nursery school-adding on a private small college school to a four room school house, to a regular public schools. I came out just fine and I think if we left the teaching to the teachers like it use to be the kids are going to be fine.

I love how all the heat is on the childcare providers and not the parents. What about kids that have SAHM's. Who's regulating their early childhood?

My mom didn't to anything special with me when I was little. She read to me alot and I played, played, played all the time. I was an only so I had all the toys a girl can need. Of course looking back most would be considered educational but I picked most of them out myself, not my parents.
Go figure I would end up doing this profession and not the one I went to college for!
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daycare 02:53 PM 11-29-2012
Originally Posted by Country Kids:
We have let the state of education change by letting the kids be in charge (my opinion)

I never went to preschool/kindergarten and graduated just fine.

I went anywhere from a nursery school-adding on a private small college school to a four room school house, to a regular public schools. I came out just fine and I think if we left the teaching to the teachers like it use to be the kids are going to be fine.

I love how all the heat is on the childcare providers and not the parents. What about kids that have SAHM's. Who's regulating their early childhood?

My mom didn't to anything special with me when I was little. She read to me alot and I played, played, played all the time. I was an only so I had all the toys a girl can need. Of course looking back most would be considered educational but I picked most of them out myself, not my parents.
Go figure I would end up doing this profession and not the one I went to college for!
I was not living here when I was a child, but what I have seen since my time here is the education system really try to change for the better and things are like they used to be any more.

I know for a fact that there are a lot of kids in this world that without some form of early intervention with education, would continue life so helpless and hopeless.

Most of these kids are at-risk youths and they do make up a very large population of our children.

I think that thing that scares me is what I deal with now. I teach the kids here and I am more impressed with them, however, the parents are not on board in supporting their children's success.

I goal is to not only prep the kids, but the parents as well. In the first years of school, it is up to the parent to set the tone for their child. They will need to hold their hand through it and help guide them to becoming a successful student. Unfortunately, parents leave it on the school, thinking that they don't have a part in it.

Remember the reading log challenge I am doing?? All kids in my care all 16 needed to read 250 books in 30 days. That meant that each kid had to read 15 book over the course of the month. Guess how many kids have participated? 4.....and only 1 has completed the assignment every week. This is not the kids fault, but the parents fault.....

Uggghh ok I am getting off topic here.....lol
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Willow 02:54 PM 11-29-2012
Originally Posted by Country Kids:
We have let the state of education change by letting the kids be in charge (my opinion)

I never went to preschool/kindergarten and graduated just fine.

I went anywhere from a nursery school-adding on a private small college school to a four room school house, to a regular public schools. I came out just fine and I think if we left the teaching to the teachers like it use to be the kids are going to be fine.




Originally Posted by Country Kids:
I love how all the heat is on the childcare providers and not the parents. What about kids that have SAHM's. Who's regulating their early childhood?
Tis a slippery slope.....give it 20 years and the government will be telling parents they are unqualified to raise their own children and much get specific college degrees to do so as well

Heck, they're already telling parents they are too stupid to pick out a reasonable licensed daycare on their own - hence the perceived necessity of these new programs
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Blackcat31 03:00 PM 11-29-2012
Originally Posted by Crystal:
I will have to look at where the oney initially came from....I do beleive it is from taxes on something.

The kids are not going to be okay if the state of education does not change, and it starts in early childhood.
I absolutely 100% unequivocally agree with the bolded part buuuuuuuuut the changes "our" children today need isn't earlier and earlier education.

The changes our kids need is good solid sound quality care. Good rest, good food, good social interactions. Children need parents who will have consistent routines and healthy home lives. It won't matter one bit if little Jimmy is exposed to early education and his provider had an approved curriculum if his mom takes him home and plops him oin front of the TV with his super sized extra value McDonald's meal

Why not take these dollars and give child care providers bonuses or benefits or some sort of monetary compensation for seeing that the children's basic needs are met.

I couldn't give a rat's behind if my child care provider put the toothpaste in a single serve cup vs making sure my child had a healthy lunch and a lot of outdoor time.

Why not go back to the basics and encourage and support providers who really do offer quality and substance in their programs?

I think what would have helped the kids in Jessica Tata's care would have been a better connection between her and the agency that oversees her. I think I read in one of the articles about her that she hadn't had a visit from licensing in over 6 months.

I know providers who haven't seen hide nor hair of their licensor since their initial application process.

I agree that there needs to be something done about the state of our children but I think the start should be at home. Take the money and provide paid maternity leave, provide child care providers access to education/training for free in their homes if necessary, provide child care workers in homes and centers some paid time off, incentives to do better and provide more.

This QRIS thing is being marketed to parents and providers in the wrong ways and focusing on things that ultimately make the government be the ultimate authority rather than people who really know what it is like in the ECE field.

Just like most people who write the rules and regs for licensing, few, if any, have ever actually worked in the field or really know what it is like in the trenches.

Like the welfare program, I think the intent is admirable but the implementation is way out in left field...
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Country Kids 03:04 PM 11-29-2012
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
I absolutely 100% unequivocally agree with the bolded part buuuuuuuuut the changes "our" children today need isn't earlier and earlier education.

The changes our kids need is good solid sound quality care. Good rest, good food, good social interactions. Children need parents who will have consistent routines and healthy home lives. It won't matter one bit if little Jimmy is exposed to early education and his provider had an approved curriculum if his mom takes him home and plops him oin front of the TV with his super sized extra value McDonald's meal

Why not take these dollars and give child care providers bonuses or benefits or some sort of monetary compensation for seeing that the children's basic needs are met.

I couldn't give a rat's behind if my child care provider put the toothpaste in a single serve cup vs making sure my child had a healthy lunch and a lot of outdoor time.

Why not go back to the basics and encourage and support providers who really do offer quality and substance in their programs?

I think what would have helped the kids in Jessica Tata's care would have been a better connection between her and the agency that oversees her. I think I read in one of the articles about her that she hadn't had a visit from licensing in over 6 months.

I know providers who haven't seen hide nor hair of their licensor since their initial application process.

I agree that there needs to be something done about the state of our children but I think the start should be at home. Take the money and provide paid maternity leave, provide child care providers access to education/training for free in their homes if necessary, provide child care workers in homes and centers some paid time off, incentives to do better and provide more.

This QRIS thing is being marketed to parents and providers in the wrong ways and focusing on things that ultimately make the government be the ultimate authority rather than people who really know what it is like in the ECE field.

Just like most people who write the rules and regs for licensing, few, if any, have ever actually worked in the field or really know what it is like in the trenches.

Like the welfare program, I think the intent is admirable but the implementation is way out in left field...
Bravo, Bravo!

I wish we had clappy hands but a cheerleader will do.
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Heidi 03:16 PM 11-29-2012
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
I absolutely 100% unequivocally agree with the bolded part buuuuuuuuut the changes "our" children today need isn't earlier and earlier education.

The changes our kids need is good solid sound quality care. Good rest, good food, good social interactions. Children need parents who will have consistent routines and healthy home lives. It won't matter one bit if little Jimmy is exposed to early education and his provider had an approved curriculum if his mom takes him home and plops him oin front of the TV with his super sized extra value McDonald's meal

Why not take these dollars and give child care providers bonuses or benefits or some sort of monetary compensation for seeing that the children's basic needs are met.

I couldn't give a rat's behind if my child care provider put the toothpaste in a single serve cup vs making sure my child had a healthy lunch and a lot of outdoor time.

Why not go back to the basics and encourage and support providers who really do offer quality and substance in their programs?

I think what would have helped the kids in Jessica Tata's care would have been a better connection between her and the agency that oversees her. I think I read in one of the articles about her that she hadn't had a visit from licensing in over 6 months.

I know providers who haven't seen hide nor hair of their licensor since their initial application process.

I agree that there needs to be something done about the state of our children but I think the start should be at home. Take the money and provide paid maternity leave, provide child care providers access to education/training for free in their homes if necessary, provide child care workers in homes and centers some paid time off, incentives to do better and provide more.

This QRIS thing is being marketed to parents and providers in the wrong ways and focusing on things that ultimately make the government be the ultimate authority rather than people who really know what it is like in the ECE field.

Just like most people who write the rules and regs for licensing, few, if any, have ever actually worked in the field or really know what it is like in the trenches.

Like the welfare program, I think the intent is admirable but the implementation is way out in left field...
These star-ratings are the early childhood equivalent of "No Child Left Behind". I have yet to meet a single teacher who finds THAT helpful=teaching to a test, then getting feedback 9 months later. How does that serve anyone? Our teachers, for the most part, already KNEW which children needed extra help and which ones were gifted. I'd much rather see NCLB money go to G&T programs and engaging at-risk kids into staying in school.

My kids attended a fantastic open-classroom program in the mid 90s (gradeschool). They were engaged and learned tons and tons of stuff, not just the RRR's but hands-on science and world culture (complemented by a contingent of musicans from Guatemala). The teachers were interesting and interested. My niece is in the same program now, and it is completely, sadly, mainstream. blahh...!
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Meeko 03:16 PM 11-29-2012
Originally Posted by Willow:




Heck, they're already telling parents they are too stupid to pick out a reasonable licensed daycare on their own - hence the perceived necessity of these new programs

Exactly
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Country Kids 03:17 PM 11-29-2012
Chrystal,

I have enjoyed reading your posts and why you are so involved in this program. I think you are the only one really for it on the forum!

Anyway, I am curious about it and hoping to learn more. Doesn't mean I buy into the whole thing but I'm willing to learn. It would be nice it all 50 states had the same guidelines but as we all know in the food program that probably won't be happening.

I kind of atribute it to the "paid time off" thread. Both sides are very voiced of why the do it the way they do. I bet though if the government came in and said You have to take time paid/not take time paid, the roof would rise.

I started this business for me and developed it for children to be loved, learn and have fun. Now the government is coming in saying your not doing it right, do it our way. Like I said before, I guess I'm becoming more of a govenment employee as they are slowly taking my business over to suit them.
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Blackcat31 03:22 PM 11-29-2012
Originally Posted by Heidi:
These star-ratings are the early childhood equivalent of "No Child Left Behind". I have yet to meet a single teacher who finds THAT helpful=teaching to a test, then getting feedback 9 months later. How does that serve anyone?

My kids attended a fantastic open-classroom program in the mid 90s (gradeschool). They were engaged and learned tons and tons of stuff, not just the RRR's but hands-on science and world culture (complemented by a contingent of musicans from Guatemala). The teachers were interesting and interested. My niece is in the same program now, and it is completely, sadly, mainstream. blahh...!
I agree about the No Child Left Behind comparison. My DS wasn't left behind but he should have been. As a matter of fact, I begged the teachers to hold him back. I even tried to enroll him in a different school to repeat a grade and they wouldn't let me. He suffered from it, I can tell you that.

fwiw~ He is ok now...after a ton of work/therapy and other interventions. He ended up in a Charter school and did much better but still the whole experience has left a bitter taste in my mouth.

I have several teacher parents as DCM's right now and NONE of them like or approve of the NCLB concept either.

NannyDe asked a looong time ago for anyone with actual proof of the benefits of Early Childhood Education/preschool for kids that were not in poverty or underpriviledged to post it here and as of yet, no one has provided that or shown any actual study that preschool is beneficial.
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Heidi 03:38 PM 11-29-2012
In Wisconsin, the idea of Youngstar was introduced under 2 premises:

-That providers receiving public money for children should be held accountable for providing quality care.

-That well-educated, well-trained providers with more oversight would be less likely to commit fraud.

I get the first part, I really do. However, it's going from one extreme to the other-the people who were providing the crap care in the first place should have been being monitored more to start. If you're interested, use this link and look up 1-star providers once. These are the people that have been providing low-quality care for years, and yet were not shut down. WHY? Now, they are 1-star providers, which means they cannot take state-funded kids (they are banned), and they are still in business. huh?


http://childcarefinder.wisconsin.gov...Providers=true

You have to do this as an advanced search, then take out anything above 1 star, and it will search for only the 1 stars. Please note, most of the results are poor, socio-economically disadvantaged, minority providers in Milwaukee.

BTW, people who meet licensing regs with only minor or no violations and choose not to go through a formal rating (perhaps because they do not have the 18 college credits needed to be a 3 star program), are automatically a 2-star.


I have to agree with Crystal in that our star-rating, at least, doesnt "push down" a kindergarten curriculum into early childhood. It's not really about teaching ABC's, etc. It's about providing opportunities INTENTIONALLY to help the children learn. I just think that could be accomplished by more free training and more financial incentives to providers who take that training. Then, if they really want to spend more money, hire more licensers...like I said before, to shut down crappy care..illegal care and providers who do not meet health and safety standards.
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daycare 03:50 PM 11-29-2012
Originally Posted by Heidi:
In Wisconsin, the idea of Youngstar was introduced under 2 premises:

-That providers receiving public money for children should be held accountable for providing quality care.

-That well-educated, well-trained providers with more oversight would be less likely to commit fraud.

I get the first part, I really do. However, it's going from one extreme to the other-the people who were providing the crap care in the first place should have been being monitored more to start. If you're interested, use this link and look up 1-star providers once. These are the people that have been providing low-quality care for years, and yet were not shut down. WHY? Now, they are 1-star providers, which means they cannot take state-funded kids (they are banned), and they are still in business. huh?


http://childcarefinder.wisconsin.gov...Providers=true

You have to do this as an advanced search, then take out anything above 1 star, and it will search for only the 1 stars. Please note, most of the results are poor, socio-economically disadvantaged, minority providers in Milwaukee.

BTW, people who meet licensing regs with only minor or no violations and choose not to go through a formal rating (perhaps because they do not have the 18 college credits needed to be a 3 star program), are automatically a 2-star.


I have to agree with Crystal in that our star-rating, at least, doesnt "push down" a kindergarten curriculum into early childhood. It's not really about teaching ABC's, etc. It's about providing opportunities INTENTIONALLY to help the children learn. I just think that could be accomplished by more free training and more financial incentives to providers who take that training. Then, if they really want to spend more money, hire more licensers...like I said before, to shut down crappy care..illegal care and providers who do not meet health and safety standards.
I am very very shocked to see the YMCA only a two start rating in some areas.....wow
and their list of violations is nuts
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mom2many 03:51 PM 11-29-2012
This has been very enlightening reading this thread. Since I received my license in 1986, there have been many changes, but this has me shaking my head on so many different levels. There were so many pps that I could relate & agree with that I couldn't begin to quote them all.

I am almost 52 and at this point of my life, I'm definitely NOT going to go back to school to get a degree...I'd probably finish about the time I am ready to retire and the only thing I would gain from this is more debt! (Maybe if I'm lucky, I can skate through without it being to detrimental to my business!)

I just became a grama and an empty nester this past year. I don't want to work that hard at this point in my life. I absolutely LOVE and ADORE what I do and feel I give the children in my care a wonderful, safe, nurturing and fun learning environment and it has been an extremely rewarding career.

If I was in my 30's or even early 40's, maybe I would look at this with a different perspective...but I'm not prepared to go back to school after working a 12 hour day at my age. I earned my business degree while working f/t when I was 20, but I cannot fathom doing that now!
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Country Kids 03:55 PM 11-29-2012
Originally Posted by daycare:
I am very very shocked to see the YMCA only a two start rating in some areas.....wow
and their list of violations is nuts
Our YMCA has some pretty serious violations and they still let them keep running! I was very, very shocked to see this. I think if it was me I would have been shut down on the spot! Alot of it had to do with the pool which is pretty scary.
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Meeko 04:03 PM 11-29-2012
Originally Posted by mom2many:
This has been very enlightening reading this thread. Since I received my license in 1986, there have been many changes, but this has me shaking my head on so many different levels. There were so many pps that I could relate & agree with that I couldn't begin to quote them all.

I am almost 52 and at this point of my life, I'm definitely NOT going to go back to school to get a degree...I'd probably finish about the time I am ready to retire and the only thing I would gain from this is more debt! (Maybe if I'm lucky, I can skate through without it being to detrimental to my business!)

I just became a grama and an empty nester this past year. I don't want to work that hard at this point in my life. I absolutely LOVE and ADORE what I do and feel I give the children in my care a wonderful, safe, nurturing and fun learning environment and it has been an extremely rewarding career.

If I was in my 30's or even early 40's, maybe I would look at this with a different perspective...but I'm not prepared to go back to school after working a 12 hour day at my age. I earned my business degree while working f/t when I was 20, but I cannot fathom doing that now!
I'm the same age exactly and just like you, I don't want to go back to school to be able to do what I have already been doing successfully for the past 27 years!
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Crystal 04:57 PM 11-29-2012
Originally Posted by mom2many:
This has been very enlightening reading this thread. Since I received my license in 1986, there have been many changes, but this has me shaking my head on so many different levels. There were so many pps that I could relate & agree with that I couldn't begin to quote them all.

I am almost 52 and at this point of my life, I'm definitely NOT going to go back to school to get a degree...I'd probably finish about the time I am ready to retire and the only thing I would gain from this is more debt! (Maybe if I'm lucky, I can skate through without it being to detrimental to my business!)

I just became a grama and an empty nester this past year. I don't want to work that hard at this point in my life. I absolutely LOVE and ADORE what I do and feel I give the children in my care a wonderful, safe, nurturing and fun learning environment and it has been an extremely rewarding career.

If I was in my 30's or even early 40's, maybe I would look at this with a different perspective...but I'm not prepared to go back to school after working a 12 hour day at my age. I earned my business degree while working f/t when I was 20, but I cannot fathom doing that now!
I am sorry I forgot to answer your PM! I will later, I promise!

For California providers, I say do not start worrying about this right now. It is completely voluntary, a pilot program through December 2015 and only in the counties that are currently funded for it. I am going to try to get a list of those counties for you all.

That being said, even once it is no longer a pilot, it will still be voluntary. You do not HAVE to participate!
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daycare 05:04 PM 11-29-2012
Originally Posted by Crystal:
I am sorry I forgot to answer your PM! I will later, I promise!

For California providers, I say do not start worrying about this right now. It is completely voluntary, a pilot program through December 2015 and only in the counties that are currently funded for it. I am going to try to get a list of those counties for you all.

That being said, even once it is no longer a pilot, it will still be voluntary. You do not HAVE to participate!
but if you don't then you are basically a big fat ZERO right???
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Country Kids 05:08 PM 11-29-2012
Originally Posted by daycare:
but if you don't then you are basically a big fat ZERO right???
For our state the highest you would get is a 1.
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Crystal 05:21 PM 11-29-2012
For a 1 you just need to meet licensing regs.

for a 2 you need to use an evidence based child assessment or observation tool annually, (think DRDP ), do the inital helath screening at enrollment and then again annually and have 12 units of ECE.

for a 3 you need all of thye same as 2 and work with families to screen children for health and special needs at entry and then as needed based on those results, have 24 ECE units and 16 GE units and particpate in 21 hours of professional development annually.

I won't go on to four and five, but if anyone from California wants the documents I recieved at the meeting, PM me your mailing info and I will send them to you.
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Unregistered 07:59 PM 11-29-2012
Wow! I just read this thread all at one sitting. Crystal is all for the rating system(s). Very few others, especially ones who have been providing child care for more than a few years, are. Perhaps those of us with any amount of experience know that the most important thing in child care is NOT the government regulations but rather the child/provider/parent relationships and the individual attention and education providers provide to the children in their care. Perhaps government could limit its over-done regulations to centers, and let family providers be FAMILY providers giving care to children whom they love and raise as if they were members of their own family. Oh, but I get it - family is OUT, GOVERNMENT is IN.
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Heidi 08:27 PM 11-29-2012
Originally Posted by Crystal:
I am sorry I forgot to answer your PM! I will later, I promise!

For California providers, I say do not start worrying about this right now. It is completely voluntary, a pilot program through December 2015 and only in the counties that are currently funded for it. I am going to try to get a list of those counties for you all.

That being said, even once it is no longer a pilot, it will still be voluntary. You do not HAVE to participate!
BUT....if you take state-funded children, you MUST participate, at least in Wisconsin, and if you are a 2 star, you lost 5 percent of your pay for state-funded kids in July. 2 star means you meet state licensing standards, but choose not to participate in a formal rating.

Eventually, all providers that are regulated will have to participate-they are not hiding that fact.

When you live in a county where there are 11 regulated providers, at least 4 illegal providers, and countless unregulated sahm's, it's a little disheartening to live up to more government scrutiny while competing against "babysitters". In the meantime, shortly after launching this fabulous program, the state decided that family childcare providers should only be paid on attendance, not enrollment.

The centers are paid on enrollment. I am a 3 star program (had enough points for a 4 star, but decided to hold of on the observation), all our centers are 2 star programs, but they get paid quite a bit more than I do per hour, and are paid on enrollment, not attendance. Oh, and FCCERs, their quality rating tool, actually addresses that providers should have paid time off! Kind of funny....really. Funny wierd, not funny ha ha...

OK-I think I've whined enough. I'd like to apologize to Crystal ( I know you're really awesome and I totally respect your hard work and education). I just really, truly don't think that this has been looked at from all angles by those who make the decisions, and I don't think that the"bugs" have been worked out enough yet. Best intentions-poor execution...
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mom2many 09:58 PM 11-29-2012
Originally Posted by Crystal:
For a 1 you just need to meet licensing regs.

for a 2 you need to use an evidence based child assessment or observation tool annually, (think DRDP ), do the inital helath screening at enrollment and then again annually and have 12 units of ECE.

for a 3 you need all of thye same as 2 and work with families to screen children for health and special needs at entry and then as needed based on those results, have 24 ECE units and 16 GE units and particpate in 21 hours of professional development annually.

I won't go on to four and five, but if anyone from California wants the documents I recieved at the meeting, PM me your mailing info and I will send them to you.
Thanks Crystal for helping to clarify and explain how this will be implemented. It's always better know what the future in this profession may hold, then to be caught off guard! I just may get to retire sooner than I expected...because right now I'm a big fat ONE!

I appreciate what others posted as well and realize every state may be different, but it's helpful to see how it is/will be affecting others too.

Too many times I see government screw things up in a MAJOR way (their involvement does not always make it better!)... so I have to admit, I'm VERY leery of this whole thing! With the economy the way it is and the government being broke, it amazes me that there is money to shell out for them to hire MORE govt employees to regulate this program. Taxes come from us....so it's not "FREE" money!

This does scare the heck out of me...not so much for the impact on my own life & the affect it could potentially have on my livelihood, but for that of my own kids and grandkids too.
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CrackerJacks 10:42 PM 11-29-2012
This may be a silly question, but where will parents be able to find our scores? Will they need to call licensing and request them or will they be publicly displayed next to our contact information from our county referral agency?
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Blackcat31 06:19 AM 11-30-2012
Originally Posted by CrackerJacks:
This may be a silly question, but where will parents be able to find our scores? Will they need to call licensing and request them or will they be publicly displayed next to our contact information from our county referral agency?
In my state, there is a web-site just for parents so they can look up ratings of each provider.

A lot of it is also linked through your local CRR&R agency and their website.

@Heidi...yes, in MN, participation is mandatory if you accept families on assistance and we were told that once all the states implement their systems, participation will be mandatory.

The YMCA in my community would also only get 1, maybe 2 stars and it is because other than the actual lead teacher/provider in the class room, all the assistants and helpers have the bare minimum educational requirements so they lose scoring points for that.

Our YMCA was offered a grant to help them get started but they said the grant was only $500-1,000 and in order to get all their staff the necessary trainings it would cost way more than that so they passed on participating.

The director said requiring the staff to have a CDA would severely limit the number of applicants that would be willing to work for minimum wage since once you earn your CDA, you should be paid more but unless they raise the rates for children/families, the money and the advantages of participating is just NOT worth it for them.

If I remember correctly, the cost of getting a CDA is somewhere near the $2,000 mark but that was 20 years ago for me, so I am not sure how much it costs now days.

ALL Head Start programs are automatically given the hoghest number of stars as they are "The model of success" and ideally what they would like to see all care facilities emulate.
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Country Kids 06:25 AM 11-30-2012
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
In my state, there is a web-site just for parents so they can look up ratings of each provider.

A lot of it is also linked through your local CRR&R agency and their website.

@Heidi...yes, in MN, participation is mandatory if you accept families on assistance and we were told that once all the states implement their systems, participation will be mandatory.

The YMCA in my community would also only get 1, maybe 2 stars and it is because other than the actual lead teacher/provider in the class room, all the assistants and helpers have the bare minimum educational requirements so they lose scoring points for that.

Our YMCA was offered a grant to help them get started but they said the grant was only $500-1,000 and in order to get all their staff the necessary trainings it would cost way more than that so they passed on participating.

The director said requiring the staff to have a CDA would severely limit the number of applicants that would be willing to work for minimum wage since once you earn your CDA, you should be paid more but unless they raise the rates for children/families, the money and the advantages of participating is just NOT worth it for them.

If I remember correctly, the cost of getting a CDA is somewhere near the $2,000 mark but that was 20 years ago for me, so I am not sure how much it costs now days.

ALL Head Start programs are automatically given the hoghest number of stars as they are "The model of success" and ideally what they would like to see all care facilities emulate.
What is a CDA?
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Heidi 06:31 AM 11-30-2012
Originally Posted by CrackerJacks:
This may be a silly question, but where will parents be able to find our scores? Will they need to call licensing and request them or will they be publicly displayed next to our contact information from our county referral agency?
It's on the state Youngstar website (I posted the link earlier), and we get a cling-sticker for the front door! Yay!!!
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Blackcat31 06:31 AM 11-30-2012
Originally Posted by Country Kids:
What is a CDA?
Child Development Associate diploma/certificate

http://www.cdacouncil.org/

Usually the first step for ECE workers. Alot of centers and child care facilities require staff to have a CDA.
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