WWYD Opinions please:

I have a NEW 23month old boy. Been with me only one week. Last week he climbed into a PNP of a SLEEPING BABY and bit her! The baby was totally sleeping, it was completely unprovoked. He climbed in, bit the baby hard enough to leave a mark for the whole weekend. (No bruising though???! I suspected it was ringworm, but it seems that it is in fact a bite mark.)

Today, my DS 24months and the DCB 23months had a little skirmish over a toy and the DCB bit my DS HARD. We iced it and the marks went away, but it still left a total bruise ring and broke a bit of skin.

This is 2 bites in only a week. It seems he is an experienced biter too, as they are not wet marks or little bites, but full complete, clamp down, break skin bites.

So, question, what would you do?

Would you return money recieved and term immediately?
Would you wait to see if I can improve the behavior?

Today we are watching him like a HAWK and it just doesn't seem realistic to be able to maintain that level of undivided attention on one child when their are others to be scanning and supervising too.

What concerns me most is the first incident, to climb intot he PNP of a sleeping baby and BITE HARD completely unprovoked!

Please tell me what you would do, have done in the past. I really want to figure out what, if anything to say to the parent at pick up.

THANK YOU THANK YOU.

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1. I would term immediately. I would split the difference in cost or take it entirely..

2. I would put up a permanent barrier to keep all future kids from having access to sleeping infants. Thin PNP walls are a suggestion to stay out, not a barrier, IMHO.

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If you can't provide a safe environment for the others and you don't have the manpower to supervise him at a necessary level then I'd term. If you decide to keep him I'd put him on probation and work out a behaviour plan in writing that the parents must sign. Document everything.

Something to consider: I can't imagine that the mother of the infant was happy. I'd be furious. If DCK bites baby again I would put money on the fact that you will lose them. I know accidents and squabbles between children happen but a baby should be safe from harm. In keeping him you risk losing other families.

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I would terminate.

When I am told a child is a biter, I will not even go ahead with continue an interview. If I were to discover in the first few days of enrollment that a child was a biter I would term. I will work with current children who become biters... but even then, I'm extremely intolerant and will term if I don't see immediate improvement after being put on probation.

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I personally would not term, at least yet. I would just be sure the biter is by me AT ALL TIMES. If I have to go to another room either take him with me or place him in a high chair. I would not allow him to play with another child unless I am right there.

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I would also go this route BUUUUT I would not personally provide this type of one on one supervision but would hire an assistant/helper to provide CLOSE one on one care for the child until he/she learned not to bite anymore.

I would charge a higher rate for that kind of one to one care though because I personally cannot physically manage it while caring for the other kids.

If the parents were unhappy with that arrangement, they would be free to choose an alternate child care facility.

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That is the only way I can see it working, too.

If a single provider has to shadow one kid all day... who is watching the rest? I just could not do it or risk losing my world over it.

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For those that say they would term...

When would you term? What do you mean by IMMEDIATE? This family just paid me 2 weeks in advance yesterday, plus I have a one week deposit from them.

So If I termed TODAY I would need to give back the 2 weeks plus the rest of this week's deposit money? Which is fine, I CAN afford to term him, and the money is still in the bank. I'm just trying to figure out what exactly to tell the parent.

Should I say TODAY is his last day? ZERO notice? Or should I say that Friday is his last day and this will be his deposit week and return the 2 weeks pay? (And then just keep him quarantined rest of week).

This is what my contract says:
Termination Policy
The client may terminate this contract by giving one week's written notice in advance of the ending date. The provider may terminate the contract without notice and refund the prorated deposit amount if unable to complete the final week of care for any reason. Payment by the client is due for the notice period, whether or not the child is brought to the provider for care. The one week deposit can be applied as payment in full for the final week.


Thank you very much for advice!

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Did parents pre-warn you of his shark attack behavior???

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I would definitely term... these types of biters just get worse and as he has proven ...very brazen!

I have worked with biters and got them to stop but this crawling into the pcp really makes me mad!

Give them the 2 weeks and keep the deposit or this weeks money.
I think they knew he would do this!
They should have warned you.

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No, they gave me no warning that he was a biter.

I'm so upset, I hate the drama that comes with a termination!

But I also don't want ANYONE else getting bitten. And I can't trust him AT ALL because if he will climb into the PNP of a sleeping baby and bite... WTF?!

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I'm sorry, I should have explained.

My POV would be from my CCR&R and the family of the infants. This would be a reportable injury here and viewed as completely my fault. I would have been cited. (No judgment , just part of my regs.)

The tuition cost would not enter into consideration for me. A toddler biting an infant, here, would get me shut down until the investigation of my supervision and safe infant sleep practices was complete. No grey area at all is afforded to us..

"Immediate Termination" would have been the day of the bite on the infant. It would be proactive in anticipation of having to prove I am putting a permanent plan into action to come back into compliance.

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I am so stressed out about this decision!

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I would term immediately and report to licensing. There are a couple of issues here. You should prepare for a licensing visit.

Since he just started you are going to be questioned on how he got from where he sleeps to the baby playpen...then up the wall of the playpen...then over the playpen...to the baby... and then out without you seeing it. A minimum standard of supervision would be to KNOW the physical prowess of ANY kid that has physical access to the babies. Just him being ABLE to scale a playpen wall and GET to the baby is a HUGE problem. He could have crushed her, broken her neck, or suffocated her. Biting her is terrible but the State is going to know it could have been way way way worse. They are going to want assurance that you have fixed your environment and receive supervision training to make sure that doesn't happen again. This is the REAL serious issue here. Terming and returning money is the easy thing to do.

I pray you read my words with a soft tone and pure concern for you and the kids. This is a pretty serious supervision situation.

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I had a biter. And he hit and pulled hair. He started here just shy of being 18 months old and is now almost 24 months old. His parents (after is started happening) told me he came from a licensed group home and that all the kids were older than him and were mean to him so he picked up on it.
I didn't have the heart to term him so I didn't. I constantly had him follow me around if I couldn't be right next to him, if I was cooking, he "cooked", if I had to put something away, he helped etc... I always was showing him nice touches too. After about 3 months of constantly redirecting, shadowing and showing nice touches, he all of a sudden stopped biting! He still pulls hair and we are working on that. I just kept thinking that if he went somewhere else, then that person might term and the cycle would go on and on so I kept him. But I do have to say that it was a very rough few months! And I had just opened and had not one piece of backbone (still working on that) and besides not wanting the child to go somewhere else in case they didn't work with him or worse was mean, I just didn't have the heart to do it.
He still gives me a run for my money, but at least he isn't biting anymore. If I had to do it all over again, I'm not sure if I would feel the same way.

Sorry, I'm probably not much help, but kids can change, it's whether or not you can deal with it and have the time to spend with them until they do...if they do.
Good luck!

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I do take your words kindly this time. Thank you. I however, am unlicensed so that is not an issue for me. This is purely a decision my mom (partner) and I have to make together. I want what is best for my business, and the health and safety of my DS and all the kids I've had for so long. I don't want to lose any of my long term families over a biter I've had for one week.

Oh and I do appreciate it, I hadn't thought of that, what if he'd sat on the baby, suffocated, broke an arm, etc. Thank you for that perspective!

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Echomom, I just want to say that I am impressed with how you are handling this.

All too often, a provider who posts something this serious on-line will receive some point-blank or blunt advice.

Most times, the poster will take the advice, however well intended, and be upset or offended by it.

I am impressed that you are taking the advice and aren't feeling as though anyone is attacking you or making this personal.

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I realizd we have other threads regarding terminating biters: https://www.daycare.com/forum/tags.p...minate+-+biter

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Thanks Michael, I did search biting and those threads also helped me make my decision.

Thanks BlackCat

Well, we did it, we termed the biter who's been with me one week. My mom drew the short straw this time (LOL) and had the conversation. The DCBs last day will be Friday.

Then I had a conversation with the baby victim's parent. I apologized, explained, and told him that the child will be shadowed (TRUE shadowing) the rest of the week and last day on Friday. He was super understanding and seemed really impressed with our honesty and terming. I explained my own DS got bitten today and that's how we figured it out. The dad said I understand, it happens, but we were adamate that we DON'T want it to happen HERE.

Thanks for all the help! I hope drama doesn't ensue this week from termed DCF, but we all know there usually is...

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I don't think this is their first rodeo.

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I am confused. The bite on the infant happened last week, yet the parents just were informed today? (ETA I just realized what you meant)

I am also wondering, how did the toddler actually scale the outside of the play pen without tipping it over? Were there any other injuries to the infant at all?

As far as not having to report to licensing, you might need to still report the incident to CPS. Not sure how the regs work where you are, but I would make sure to notify anyone that CAN be notified before the parent does. On the surface, the dad may be fine, while he is standing at your door. That may very well change once he gets home and relays the story to Mom, who likely isn't going to take it as well.
When Mom finds out you only just realized the baby was bitten last week, after having found the toddler IN the play pen, and you only realized it because your own child was bitten, I really don't think she is going to take it as lightly as Dad. I am not trying to offend, just being honest and trying to prepare you, just in case.

Good luck.

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The new 23month old was taking a 15min morning break in a PNP, beside a 10month old napping baby while I changed diapers in the room. The 23month old climbed out of his PNP into the baby's neighboring PNP. The baby woke up and cried. I set aside the child being changed and then removed the 23 month old from the baby's PNP. I did not SEE him bite, I saw him in the baby's PNP with a baby toy. I did not think anything of the baby crying because this baby ALWAYS screams when he wakes up (wants bottle, wants out, etc.) The 23 month old was sitting calmly with the baby toy and was not upset or emotional in any way. I removed him from the baby's PNP and then changed the now awake baby who settled easily and went about his day. I never noticed a bite on the nape of his neck, didn't even think to look as nothing seemed to have happened except that the older boy climbed in and he was awoken.

Later that evening (Friday) the parents sent me a text picture of a ring mark on the baby's neck. They asked if it was a bite or a rash. I said I hadn't seen it but from their pic it didn't look like a bite, it looked like bad ringworm. My mom, the DCM, and I all googled pics of ringworm and pics of toddler bite marks and ALL THREE of us agreed it looked like bad ringworm. The DCM started putting lotrimin on it over the weekend and she said it was fading. She took the baby to the Dr. Monday morning for a DIFFERENT skin issue that I had discussed with her on Friday and said he could not return until I had a note saying the OTHER issue wasn't contagious.

When he returned on Monday after the dr. (cleared to return from the other issue) they said the dr. said his neck could be a bite or also could have been some weird exzema. That seemed to be th end of it.

UNTIL I SAW the 23month old DCB bite my DS in a skirmish over toy sharing. I iced my DS's arm and my mom and I saw immediately that this odd bite mark was the exact mark from the baby's neck. As soon as we connected those dots, that's how we knew that the boy must have bitten the baby on Friday and it all made sense in hind-sight.

We deliberated all day over this decision and termed the family, their last day will be Friday and the rest of their money returned. We then talked to the baby victim's family and explained all this.

That is how I didn't know right away, but came to find out today.

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I think you did the right thing and are handling the whole situation very well.

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Now I'm confused. How did the toddler get in the playpen? Were they close together?

How did toys get in the playpen. The baby shouldn't have toys in bed.

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Yes the pnps are next to one another. The babies babble to one another through the mesh and entertain one another while awake. In this case I put the new toddler in one while I changed diapers in the room. Ironically I thought it would be a good place for him to stay out of trouble since I don't know him well being new.

He climbed over into the neighboring pnp. No other tot has ever climbed INTO a pnp. I've only ever seen kids climb out.

The baby is 10 months old and I let them have toys in their pnp. Rattle, teether, paci, wooden grasping toys. No blankets pillows or stuffed.

Remember I am legally unlicensed so some of your constraints don't aside to me.

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This is not a judgment at all, so please don't take it that way. Just something I might take into consideration for the next time.

I probably wouldn't have a child that old in a PNP. If they are old/big enough to climb out and into a neighboring PNP, then they are too old to be in one IMHO. I transition to mats at 18months- ish.

I say probably because I have also met kids, who still needed to be in a PNP at an older age. And I also get that this child was new, and not yet familiar to the environment. And behavioral problems can make children very difficult to train on mats. I recently had a DCG who was in a PNP until 21 months, but she was very immature and behaved more like a 18 month old.

I should add, because I feel some hear coming your way about this. My PNPs are close together, some even touch. Although, thinking about it, the PNP's of infants are not touching the PNP's of the older kids. Infants next to infants.

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Please consider moving the pack'n plays further apart and removing all toys. I'm not licensed either, but make sure that the children are not able to touch one another. I make sure that they are far enough away that if they pushed on the mesh they could not make contact or clash heads etc. or stand up and scratch each other over the top. Toys could get thrown at another child etc. It never even crossed my mind that one child might climb into the next pack'n play. I'm thankful nothing worse happened. I'm thankful for these boards and all that we can learn from them without having to experience each scenario first hand.

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Good ideas, thanks!

I don't really see that it makes a difference if the 23 month old was in a PNP or not. Clearly if he can easily climb in and out of PNPs he can climb into the baby's PNP from the floor OR from another PNP. Just sayin'.

Honestly, I am a CHRONIC furniture mover. I rearrange furniture somewhere in my house weekly. The daycare stuff is no different. I always move PNPs around here and there, change things up etc. This was a new arrangement, a new child, and I just didn't foresee a problem. Now I know! It's an easy fix, I'll spread them out, put some distance because you're all right. The babies that pull to standing could scratch each other and I hadn't thought of that! They are now spread out more.

And just to clarify, I actually was having this boy nap on a mat. I simply had him in the PNP in the morning for 15 minutes during diaper changes, in the same room as me, so I could keep him within sight/sound of me without him running off. I didn't know he was a PNP climber, I didn't know he was a biter, I didn't know he was willful. That's the whole reason why I put him in there to be near to me, I'd had him less than a week and new I needed to know him better before I could trust him, any new kid.

How ironic, my plan to keep him under my thumb actually backfired. I just don't understand what would make him climb over and bite a SLEEPING baby. NO trigger.

And my poor DS has a big bruise on his arm. NOT cool.

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I can see that, but the floor of the PNP is higher than the ground, which I would think would make the height a little easier of a climb. But that netting makes it relatively easy to climb no matter what.

Honestly, the idea that he climbed it makes me think that there might have been some other behavior issues too. I

Even though I read, I was thinking that he was in there for nap.

I just posted in the "direct supervision" thread, that a lot of things I do to be safe, could be totally twisted into the unsafe option. i.e.. going into the bathroom with a child could open you up to molestation/privacy issues - while not going in with them means they are unsupervised. There are some situations that no matter how hard you try, there is no black and white answer.

Right now I have a 14 month old who is biting completely unprovoked. Albeit, he isn't upset or angry - he is just chomping down. He is spending a lot of time in a superyard & play yard lately. So I can totally relate.

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The specifics of this particular situation aside, I do not think terminating child care for a older infant or young toddler who bites is always necessary or appropriate.

Biting is a very hard thing to deal with. It makes people angry and emotional, especially when it leaves a mark. However, terminating care immediately is premature is many (albeit not all) instances.

There is a great resource book called No Biting:Policy and Practice for Toddler Programs. It describes biting as an "unfortunately not unexpected" behavior in toddlers. It describes many ways to understand and help children who bite. Many times there are changes a provider can make to eliminate the behavior before it gets out of hand. What is sad is that it is easier to just term. Well, where are all of these children going to get child care? From someone who will take a "biter" and not deal with the behavior most likely. It is better (again in most, not all, cases) for the child to remain in familiar care and learn appropriate behaviors.

Toddlers bite for many reasons other than incorrigible behavior problems! They bite because they are exploring sensory stimuli, because their language is still developing and they get frustrated, because of teething pain, etc.

Spending more time outdoors, providing many types of sensory activities, giving a child a cold teether or safe chew toy, redirecting behavior that may lead to a bite (i.e. tussles over toys), responding swiftly and firmly to any biting (No biting! Biting hurts! You hurt Jacob when you bit him!), AND providing close and careful supervision when you learn biting is a possibility are all ways that will help a child overcome this behavior.

I know I will get attacked for this post but I feel that it is important that people who work with young children to recognize that terminating child care for every undesirable behavior a child displays (especially one that is not developmentally unexpected at a young age) is not necessarily appropriate. Where is the consideration for continuity of care? I am in no way implying that one should keep a child with true behavioral issues if the child needs more assistance than we can provide or put the other children in their care at risk, BUT I am saying that biting does not have to equal a term.

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No. I've never termed a biter. The child is in my care, I'm responsible for making sure that no one in his vicinity gets bitten.

I'm sorry for the kid that you didn't give him a chance and work on the issue.

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I won't attack you. What you said is right on.

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I wont attack you either but I do want to comment on what you said.

I agree that biting IS something that should be expected of toddler behavior. There ARE lots of great resources out there to help providers learn to control and manage their environments to cut down or eliminate possible biting occurrences.

However, with all that said, I still don't feel that terming a biter is wrong or inappropriate.

Child care providers work long hours for little pay and the responsibilities we all have already are only magnified by adding the responsibilities of supporting, teaching and deflecting a biter in care. I understand and respect the concept of continuity of care but at the same time, when I give that a higher priority than the care I provide for the other children here, that's not ok.

I don't feel it is MY personal duty as a caregiver to go about hiring an assistant or second caregiver just so I can provide the close supervision a biter requires. Why should it cost me to curb a biters bad habit?

That may sound cold or callous but regardless of whether it is or isn't developmentally appropriate I can NOT manage it myself.....and although I am an early childhood teacher/educator and understand biting, I am also a business woman and in order to continue running my business I must maintain a safe environment for ALL kids in my care and sometimes that means terming the one who is at the root of any unsafe or dangerous behaviors.

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I agree with you. I've had some biters and I've been fortunate enough to get it handled before it ever caused more than minor problems.

However, I know there are situations that I've heard about where I absolutely would have termed. Mainly because it had reached such a severe level that it would have been beyond my capabilities to deal with it.

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The continuity of care I'm most concerned about is the care of my own child. I have to provide continuity of care for HIM. That means I have to have an income to provide the continuity. I have to keep my income steady to pay for his care.

Continuity of care isn't just a concept for day care kids. OUR kids need that too. If any part of my job threatens my ability to provide continuity of care for MY child I have to be willing to walk away and not be held hostage to what it does to the continuity of care for other peoples children.

A biter threatens my business. I would rather loose income from the biter slot than the bitee's slots.

I have had one bite in 20 years and that was 19 years ago. I prefer the prevention rather than the termination. Even with a great record it COULD happen and I wouldn't blink an eye to term.

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Again, nothing I said meant that terming is never appropriate...just that often we jump to term when it can be handled before it becomes a huge problem.

Nannyde, I agree prevention is key. I am referring more to those who don't prevent & then term when we as adults can prevent/handle it in many cases.

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Prevention is the key. You have to teach yourself how to prevent escalation. Once you do that you don't see the end results (expression of or exhaustion of the energy) with hitting, biting, fighting etc.

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