So there have been a few threads lately about rude parents and people forgetting their manners. I have one. Before I say more, let me say that I love these kids and their mother and the dad might be okay, too, if he just learned some better communications skills. Maybe I shouldn't even be mad, but here goes: (sorry it will be long)

So I have two 4-year old boys here (my DS and a dcb). The only bathroom in my house is one level up from the daycare play area. Most of the time, the boys go potty when we are going outside/coming in, etc. Except before nap. After lunch, they go up alone together. I am in and out bringing up lunch dishes and food, so I do check on them, and the bathroom is right at the top of the stairs so they are within hearing at all times. Well, a few weeks ago, we started having problems. First it was toilet paper all over the bathroom, then shoved in the sink with the sink turned on. Then it was wet toilet paper stuck to the ceiling (lol). We had a few talks with dcm and dcd and made some new rules regarding toilet paper, etc. I also stopped letting them go in the bathroom together. One sat at the top of the stairs while the other went in and then they switched. Things got better and I made MANY more visits. Well, then, every time dcb was in there almost a whole roll of toilet paper would be gone! So we chatted AGAIN! Then, a hook we had on the wall to hold towels was pulled out of the wall. He admitted to hanging on it-so we chatted again.

Fast forward to yesterday. Somehow, dcb put a whole mega roll of tp into the toilet (the majority still on the roll-I had checked on him 30 seconds before he came back down) and flushed. I didn't realize until it was raining in my basement! I ran up, turned off the water, unclogged the toilet, etc. There was standing water in my bathroom, hallway, and dining room. The basement ceiling was leaking in the laundry room, daycare area, and a closet. I wiped it all up, and my DH called a water damage place. They came out to assess right away.

We have at least $3500 worth of damage to our floors, ceilings, cabinets, baseboards, walls, and carpet. They came last night to install super drying equipment, which will take at least 4 days. That covers the $3500. Then, they may have to replace carpet, baseboards, cabinets, etc. They may even have to rip down walls and ceilings, so that will cost MUCH MUCH more! Their equipment alone is in 1/2 of our house, and they had to put up temporary walls to block off 1/2 of the daycare. It is also 85 degrees in here from their equipment. The stuff is extensive-they even had to drill holes in our tile floor every 6 inches to let it air out! Not just some big fans-major work! I almost had to close daycare for the rest of the week, but we are managing okay today.

Anyway, I talked to the dcd, and he just said, "Honey, we only use a little toilet paper next time, okay? Okay, let's go, we are going out to dinner!" Then, this morning at drop off he said, "Well, lucky kids, you get to play upstairs today! Have a good day and be good! Bye!" NOTHING to me! Nothing like I'm sorry my kid caused $3500-10,000+ damage to your home. NOTHING at all! What do I do? What would you say? I'm speechless! I'm tempted to tell them that I can't take them for the rest of the week so they have to find alternate care, but I really don't know what to do! What would you do?

Reply

holy crap I would be livid. Now I know things happen but this was intentinal and I would hold the parents hostage and explain the damage that was done to the house and what is going on, kinda leaving the ball in their court to see what they are going to see and do. they do need to pay for some of the damage, esp. at the age of 4 you know how to use the bathroom. If they refuse to pay then terminate. Like I said, if it was an accident sure but this kid seems to do alot of naughty things with toilet paper and the parents are aware.

Reply

Also, I forgot to mention that my own 4 year old was not innocent in this. He was sitting at the top of the stairs and said that dcb told him there was water coming out of the toilet and they both went to look at it before coming downstairs. He said it was "just dripping out of the toilet seat so he didn't tell me about it." Maybe so in the minds of a 4 year old, BUT, he is in trouble. He spent all last evening in his room not able to play with anything except books and went to bed 45 minutes early (right after dinner.) This morning we had a long talk and showed him all that needed to be done to fix the house. We discussed what problems "toilet paper games" can cause and how not following the rules can have major consequences.

Dcb, on the other hand, will never see a consequence in his life. That is what makes this so difficult to deal with. How can I show him that actions have consequences when his parents (at least dcd) do not? I already removed the toilet paper, kleenex, and paper towels from the room. They are issued one small piece of tp and one paper towel when they go in to go potty, and the entire trip is supervised. What else?

Reply

O-M-G!!!!!

that kids would definetly NOT be out of my sight EVER AGAIN, not even for a second. EVER.

i couldnt even afford that if that happened to me.

did you explain to the paretns how much it would be to repair?!?!?!

their butts would be getting a bill....at least half. cause honestly....dont get mad, but....you probably should not have left him, even for a second, knowing he had already caused some prior damage....

i would ask for a conference w/ the parents, and present them with a bill, for sure....

good luck!!!

Reply

I would term and tell parents you can no longer offer care based on his behavior. Today. Sorry, not going to risk that your child may cause that much damage to my house again tomorrow or the next day etc.

I also have it in my policies that parents can be held liable for damages even if accidental. I have never enforced it (never needed to) and I doubt these parents will pay you but I would make them very aware of the total cost this child has cost you.

Reply

I'm with melskids on this one. Exactly like she said. Just like public schools, they have insurance for accidents but not for what I would be tempted to call outright vandalism. WOW!!!

Reply

I have a clause in my contract that specifically states that any damages caused by daycare children will be charged at a rate determined by me. Meaning, if their child caused that kind of damage, they would AT MINIMUM be paying my homeowner's deductible! ($1000) If they refused, I would terminate immediately, keep any portion of payment they have already made and file suit in small claims court. If you aren't turning it in to insurance, I would charge them 50-75% of the total bill...whatever you deem fit. I wouldn't attempt to "make" money on the deal but bring you back to where you were before damages.

I would tell the parents that you would like to schedule a meeting. At that time you can explain the damages, show estimates, etc. You can then tell them that you are requesting that they pay X amount of dollars to the repair work necessary for you to continue performing your services. If they refuse, tell them "THERE'S THE DOOR."

Reply

OMG no way I would be so mad taht i don't think that i would have even opened the door when they came in.

I really hope that you have insurance...Will they even cover something like this?

I am not sure if this is something that comes with The DC teritory or if the parents should be hold responsible for at least half of the fees..

I am interested to see what others have to say.....I am so sorry that this has happened to you and your family....


Big hugs

Reply

What does your contract say about this? I have a section that says that the parents are responsible for the cost of replacing intentionally broken/damaged items in my home. If they agreed to something like that, then approach them about payment for sure.

Reply

No, I'm not mad at all, melskids. You are right. I guess I thought that because we had discussed it so many times and had made some changes and that I was supervising so much more that we were okay. Also, we had been lucky that no damage was caused before, so I guess I thought it would get better not worse. Ultimately, when the day is done, it is my fault because I wasn't directly supervising him the whole time. I have taken the portion of my blame, and I'm mad at myself. Something worse could have happened. Not that this is an excuse at all, but we all know that this is a chaotic time of day. It is difficult to clean up lunch, transition to nap, put food away, do dishes, change diapers and have potty time all at once. There is only one of me and 7 of them. I don't feel overwhelmed at that time, but it is a fact that they don't get as much of my undivided attention and supervision for those 10 minutes of the day as for the other 10 hours and 20 minutes of the day. That is a fact, and short of hiring someone from 12:30-12:45 every day, I don't know what else I can do. You can be sure he will NEVER be unsupervised again.

Thank goodness for homeowners insurance as they SHOULD cover the bulk of the cost. They tricky part is that it was intentional and not accidental. They are telling me that the fact that it was a 4-year old should help with that. We cannot afford that cost either.

As for the kid, I guess that's the problem. If it's my fault, which it is, then they shouldn't pay. BUT, a 4-year old should be capable of following directions, especially when he has been given them so many times. I guess, I think it's my responsibility to pay, BUT I expect an aplogy or a consequence for these intentional actions, or something. So, what is reasonable to expect? And, I think I have no choice but to put the child on a behavior plan. If he continues to intentionally break rules, not follow directions, and/or cause intentional damages then this will be documented. If things don't change according to pre-set guidelines in my handbook, I suppose I will consider termination. It's a shame, he's a nice kid...very funny and smart. I don't know, is this the right thing to do? What would you do? I just wish parents would teach kids that actions have consequences so that I didn't have to? How do we get around this?

Reply

Oh, and yes, I do have it in my policies that intentional damage is the parents responsibility.

Reply

I feel badly for you that this happened but hopefully it can be a great lesson to all providers who read this post.

You can't allow small children unsupervised accesss to any standing or running water.

I don't allow kids in the bathroom without direct visual supervision and I don't allow them to flush. I flush the toilet so I can see what's going in it and down it.

For the amount of money this cost you you could have a staff assistant for MANY hours a week. It will cost more than you make on the four year old.

They gave you many TELLS that they were escalating their behavior while unsupervised. The FIRST instance of misbehavior (toilet paper all over the bathroom) was a shout out to you that they need direct visual supervision. This kind of behavior has to stop at the root or you will end up with damage or worst yet.. injury.

Lesson learned. I wouldn't mention it to the Dad at all. They weren't responsible for supervising the child during this time. I don't think they should really even be involved in disciplining him for it. A kid doesn't know the difference between one dollar of damage or ten thousand dollars of damage. All they know if they are in trouble right at that moment and then they start over again and be not in trouble.

You know now that this child needs an adult with eyes on him all the time. Maybe invest in some portable video cams to cover your supervision when you have to go from room to room or have him shadow you every day all day.

One thing is for sure... you won't do that again. That's the beauty of our big mistakes. Live and learn.

Reply

do you have anything in yourPHB about damages? I would ask that the family pay half of your deductable. I think that is only fair as it is part of their issues as well. Part yours for lack of direct supervision and part thiers for not putting an end to the problem when asked prior. Becuase the parents did not PARENT their child for his wrong doing, they should be part responsible....

Reply

I don't think the parents should have to pay ANYTHING for this or even discipline him for it. This is a supervision issues purely and simply. A kid playing with toilet paper is just a normal kid thing. A kid getting a roll into a toilet and flushing it is a supervision thing.

Neither of them are worth of parental intervention in my book. I would have only told them to warn them that he may pull it at their house. A proceed with caution heads up.

Reply

Nanny, I do agree with you in that I will need to directly supervise. However, this child is old enough to follow the basics of going to the bathroom. He will be starting kindergarten in less than 4 months, and I'm sure that if this were to happen there, responsibility would be placed on the child. By almost 5 years old, I do not feel it is an unreasonable expectation to use the bathroom, wipe (with help if requested-which this child sometimes does), and flush. They then wash hands in my direct supervision. I am present for at least 50% of the time, however, they should be able to do this unassisted. I discussed this with my licensor to make sure I am running a safe operation with the equipment here, and she agrees with me that this child is intentionally trying to cause damage. I feel this is the problem that needs to be addressed. I do not expect his family to pay for damages (as I posted) but I do expect the family to help me teach this child the basic rules of self-independence (toileting), the importance of following directions, the fact that not following directions causes problems/consequences, and the fact that we must respect property (ok, he's 4, maybe just the beginnings of this one). Isn't that what I'm supposed to "teach" at this age? To me, it is equally important, if not more, to teach these basic life skills as it is to teach numbers and letters at this age. I am sending him to kindergarten without these skills, obviously, and you don't think it's important for his family to help me teach them? This is where we must disagree, because I thought these were the important skills you thought kids should know and parents should teach before kindergarten.

As far as the expensive mistake, I have taken the blame and have learned my lesson.

Reply

I too have a "damage clause" in my handbook. Has never happened (yet) and I feel so bad for you..but I would be adding this clause to yours LOL

I know you agree supervision..but I also agree that the children NEED to be taught what is acceptable bathroom behavior. I have twin girls who just entered K and while one does play with anything and everything she shouldn't...she has never pushed it THAT far. When she was your DCB's age..she used to put toothpaste in the toilet paper and Q tips in the tooth paste, squirt soap every where..etc etc. I knew every time she went int here I was in for it..but I waited and would punish. On occasion I would intervene..but I wanted her to LEARN. She now only occasionally does things. Usually it is water in the soap bottle but I thinks he does it when it is near empty. I assume she has seen someone do this as I never do it.

SO I am with you on the parents stepping up and helping you teach the child, if they are unwilling to help assist you in teaching the children basic values and instead opts to reward them by taking them out to dinner..my thought is termination honestly. This was a HUGE issue and the parents should of (right in front of you) spoken to the child to let him know..they are on the same page as you!

Reply

YES YES YES!! If anyone out there in daycare home land does not already have this in their contract and/or handbook PLEASE put it in now! This would deffinetely count as intentional damage to me especially since there have been many, MANY discussions with the parents about bathroom behavior.

$3,500+?! Are you kidding me?! That's like 6-16 months worth of childcare for me for 1 child. I have a policy for intentional damages and if this happened to me I would have asked for at least half of the damages or see you in court buster (half if one of my children was involved) AND I'd say "see ya later" and cut my losses right then and there. Who knows what's going to happen next time.

Then again that means that they were spending too much time unsupervised up there. I'd stand at the top of the stairs with the door open while he did his business from now on.

Reply

When he's in school there is no expectation or pay given for direct supervision. It's not a reasonable comparison.

Of course you should tell the parents but the issues is at your house not theirs. It's your job to know what you can and can't allow. This child gave you plenty of forewarning that your words and your consequences would not deter him from bad behavior. When they tell you who they are believe it.

I'm not here to hammer you. You can displace this responsibility to what you are comfortable with. Your licensor can agree or disagree but in the end it's your home and your money that will tell you the truth of this.

Reply

I didn't read all of the other answers, but this would be my opinion, too. I'm just too lazy to write it all out .

Oh, and if your insurance company gives you any guff about this being intentional - I don't see how it could be. The child did not stuff a roll of paper into the toilet with the knowledge that it would cause thousands of dollars worth of damage, not at 4 years old. If it comes to it, fight them on it.

Reply

Nan-
so how do you supervise all of your children when using the bathroom?
At my house I teach a learning program and I allow for the kids to be excused independently during class time to use the restroom, if i feel that they are in there for longer than necessary, I do walk in to see what is going on.

I also have set bathroom breaks, but you know kids....when nature calls they are going to go. If I had to stop and take a kid to the bathroom, this means all of my kids would have to get up and go as well. This means 100% supervision and we all know that this is impossible to achieve in group care with one set of eyes... What do you do when YOU yourself use the toilet? You cant take them with you, so the kids go unsupervised.

Now, i know that this child was having issues and the provider went thorugh measures to try to fix it. However, she gave in too fast and trusted that both her and the parents have taken the correct steps to resolve the matters.

i agree with the provider that a 4year old knows better than to behave the way he did. I still feel that both the parents and the provider failed in this siutation and therefore both should be held responsible for the damages done.......

Reply

So so sorry you are dealing with this. I have a 1 person in the bathroom rule, and leave the door open/partially open, for those under 5. I would terminate them no matter how destitute I was for the money. As poor as I am right now....they would be gone. I would no longer want to be responsible for a hellion like that.

As far as insurance, I had a situation once, on a very much smaller scale. A mom sent a sippy of red gatorade in with their 3 yr old and it had medicine in it because the girl didn't feel good. Mom asked me to let her drink it. I laid her down on the floor, on top of a blanket, then her mat, and she basically laid there all day. When I took up the blankets at the end of the day, I had a huge red gatorade stain on my gray carpet. I couldn't get it out. I contacted insurance, and thinking it would be covered because I #1 have daycare coverage and #2 it was a daycare kid who did it, boy was I fooled. Insurance told me I had to pay to have the carpet professionally cleaned, which I did $100+, it still didn't all come out. Then, they told me if I was to get different carpet I would have to pay the deductible and it would be covered under my homeowners insurance and not the "daycare" part of it. I will never figure that out.

Reply

Haven't we had some discussion here about older 4's and privacy in the bathroom? Didn't some of you say that you weren't allowed (per licensing) to watch a child in the bathroom or help wipe at that age? Just curious.

Reply

in CA there is no such law...but I do know that some centers have a rule that they cannot assit children in the bathroom after a certain age.

I feel uncomfortable in the bathroom with a child of that age. I think they need to learn that No person should be touching them down their once they are self sufficient in the bathroom... However, I know that some kids at the age of 4 still need assistance....

Reply

I have a staff assistant.

My upstairs playroom is right next to the potty so I would position myself between the entry to both rooms to supervise both.

My downstairs is equipped with JMason playpens and play yards. I have a kiddy potty down there. If I were by myself I would confine all the kids and then come up to go potty and bring the kids who need to go with me.

I've been by myself here and I always confine or take them with me.

I NEVER allow kids in the bathroom without supervision. I've never had anything thrown down the toilet by the kids. My former staff assistant dumped a bucket of dirty water down one of my toilets after she had cleaned toys. The lid of one of my teapots plugged up the toilet. That was 95 dollars for a plumber. I can't imagine 10K. (We now have a rule that no bucket water is put down the toilet.

Reply

I was thinking the exact same thing! Also, I believe alot of providers said very recently that if a child couldn't-tell them and go on their own, wipe, flush, wash hands, etc. that they weren't considered potty trained. So would this child not be considered potty trained? In fact if I remember correctly Nannyde you were one of them that said that! What would happen if this happened in a center? I don't think children are not supervised one on one at centers at this age.

Reply

As much as it sux for you, I completely agree with Nannyde on this one.
4 year olds are NOT savvy to the damage that flushing stuff down the toilet can cause. They should NEVER be left unsupervised in the restroom. Even though it can be difficult, especially if there is only one caregiver, you have to fnd a way to manage it. NOt only can damage occur to personal property, but the children COULD get hurt. From your OP, it sounds like they have had quite a bit of time unsupervised at one time, or he wouldn't have had time for the toilet paper to the cieling and the broken hook on the wall. I think sometimes time passes and we ourselves don't realize how long it has REALLY been.

IF you MUST leave him in the restroom unsupervised, remove the toilet paper from the room. Boys only need it for #2, in which case they should be calling you for help anyway

Reply

I guess for your age group that works, however, I would never be able to teach if I had to stop everytime a kid needed to go to the bathroom. I do have the rule of one person at a time and the door is always kept ajar. I have never had issues with any of the kids putting things in the toilet, but I think this is because I have potty trained every child that is here and they know the rules from way back in the day.

I don't have an assistant, its just little ol me. So I have no choice but to let them use the toilet on thier own. Plus I think that age the age of 4 they should be able to do so without constant supervision and direction from an adult... You have to cut the ties at some point and trust that they can do it on their own...IMO.....lol

Reply

I've never heard of a "law" that states that, but there are some silly regs out there, so I wouldn't be surprised.

What I have been seeing in centers as I conduct ECERS, is that a teacher ALWAYS stands at the open door while children are toileting. She ensures that the children are not playing, that the toilet is flushed, and that each child washes their hands properly. I have conducted three ECERS in the past week and every one of them managed toileting routines the same way.

Reply

Yes that's my definition of potty trained. It doesn't have anything to do with whether or not they have to have supervision while they are in the bathroom.

Do you have a link where I said a four year old needs privacy in the bathroom... privacy from ME?

Because we cannot allow children to just go in and out of the room to freely use the potty they MUST learn they have to tell us so that we can accompany them into the room and supervise them.

Reply

Having a helper isn't by accident here. My business is built around the low child to adult ratios.

I have birth to five and I don't "teach".

You said "I have never had issues with any of the kids putting things in the toilet, but I think this is because I have potty trained every child that is here and they know the rules from way back in the day".

I'll bet the OP has never had issues with kids putting things down the toilet either. It just takes one day to do 10K of damage.

Reply

gosh you make that sound even worse when you say it that way...lol

It just takes one day to do 10K of damage

well regardless of supervison or not, I still think that both parties failed here and that they both are to be responsible...but again thats just my two cents.....lol sure its worth less than that.....

i wish I could be a fly on your way just for a day nan........you should start that as a side business .....nan's flies on the wall for a day! I want 10% cut....lol jk

Reply

I would be in huge trouble with my CCR&R if it was reported that I left a daycare child, not related to me, unsupervised in the restroom.

It is considered a really big deal here. Drowning, poisonings, burns, cuts etc. Of course my regs are so bad I no longer even keep kids once they turn 4.

I just buy them each their own potty chair that is kept by the changing table (completely inaccessible to kids unless I lift them over a half wall) and call it even. Too much hassle for them to even enter that room, IMHO.

I had even considered using those bedside chair pottys used by home health aides and rigging up partial walls ala bathroom stalls. Until I priced them.

It is a hard lesson and I learned it in my early 20's....

DCK's Flooded my entire living room and hallway in a RENTAL!!

Yeah, it was pretty awful, but if I had tried to make the parents help pay I would have been cited for leaving kids unsupervised near water. The fault was mine alone.

Reply

10K would be devestating to most of us... right?

Not worth it.

I don't see where the parents failed. Can you explain what you mean?

Reply

so from what I understand the provider had addressed the parents about this several times in the past correct? The provider asked for their assistance in resolving the matter, but the parents did not do anything about it, but offer to take their child out to dinner.

Reply

I fail to see how supervision (orlack thereof) in the provider's home by the provider should cause the parent's to be held accountable for their child's actions? The provider, knowing that the child had been "misbehaving" when left unsupervised in the potty left him unsupervised anyway......she KNEW that he had, more than once, played with the TP, making messes. She KNEW that he put TP in the sink and left the water running (which could have caused the same problem she has now had she not noticed) She KNEW that he threw wet TP on the ceiling. She KNEW that he hung on and broke a hook from the wall. She KNEW he needed to be supervised, yet she FAILED to do so. The parents didn't do that. The parents probably DID talk to him about it, but they aren't there to ensure that he doesn't do it, the provider is. IMO, it's all on her. If the issues were this extreme, she should have made every effort to supervise him in the potty, even if that means taking every single child to the potty with him.

(sorry Op, not trying to be mean)

Reply

okAY well when you say it that way I guess I have to agree....lol I guess i was looking at it more from the point of the parents not ever taking action when the child misbehaved...

Reply

I agree with this.

I'm not saying you have to stand on top of the kid in the bathroom. I'm saying supervise them. I stand in the hall because my bathrooms are small. If I see any doinking around I put a stop to it because I know what it can lead to. I expect them to go, sit still on the pot, and go back to the playroom without inteference.

Reply

I have one DCB age 4.5 who takes 30 min poops,..... I guess he loves the feel of the porcelin on his butt...lol I have to go in several times and remind him to hurry up..

Reply

To the OP, I am really curious, aside from an apology from the parents, what you expected from them? Personally, I would be expecting the parent to ask me why I allowed the child alone in the restroom after all of the problems ( I probably would have asked a long time ago, before this happened).....so just wonder what you wanted from them?

Reply

lol!

Reply

Oh my goodness-at what age would a child be able to go into the bathroom by themselves in your childcare? Would you even have to accompany a SA child in? What do you mean you aren't able to watch children over the age of 4? Where do they go after that? I don't even know if I would do childcare with all those regulations?

Reply

his mom asked me the other day how his progress was going and If I thought he was on track for kindy....I said way on track but one thing.... No more 30 min bathroom sessions... I dont think the school will let that fly.... I hate rushing the guy but I have to start breaking him of it before school starts in august...lol

Reply

no kidding! is the poor little guy constipated or something?

Reply

I think she means she will not watch over the age of four, not that she can't.

Reply

I agree with Crystal.

Reply

Ya know Live and Learn, your username is PERFECT for this situation!

Reply

I just care for birth to five so I don't know about SA kids. I would think they would be the most risky group.

Reply

Kids go to free preschool here at age 4. It is state funded with many being at the Elementary Schools and large commercial centers. Very few small daycares can keep kids past 4 here.

We can't compete with free and the State makes it nearly impossible to since they WANT them in the Pre-k programs.

School agers go to the after school programs also offered by the state at their own public schools WITH tutors available for a minimal fee ($35 week).

Here the standard home daycare is birth to 4, anything else is virtually impossible and not financially feasible.

Reply

The parents should not be made to pay you anything. The way I see it, it was your responsibility to recognize the potential problem (you had a few clues) and change something to prevent a bigger problem from happening. Not trying to beat you while you're down, but just giving my thoughts after stopping to think what I would do in the situation.

Here, they go potty on their own by about age 4 1/2, but they are not allowed to fully close the door. They push it till it touches the door jam, but not pushed all the way shut. (Hope that made sense!) There is a mirror positioned just right, and if I look through the crack of the door, I can see (via the mirror) just their head and back sitting on the potty. I can determine whether they are doing their business, or messing around. If they are in there for more than the appropriate time, I stand in the hall and ask how they're doing. Not in an accusing way, but enough to let them know that I am aware of the fact that they're taking a long time. Most will say "I'm pooping!" and usually I can tell that they are because I smell it. LOL.

Anyway, point being, I afford them what they see as "privacy", but I am in reality closely supervising them. Best of both worlds.

Personally, I would NEVER let two boys go to the bathroom together. Not for any nudity reasons or anything, but because boys are notoriously naughty when they get together unsupervised. Just the nature of the beast. In fact, I have a "one person in the bathroom at a time" rule.

Just my thoughts. Sorry this happened to you.

Reply

Im not seeing this as a lack of supervision thing. As I bolded, she said she had just checked on him 30 seconds prior. She's trying to supervise 7 children. He's 4 yrs old. 4! In my opinion, 4 yr olds are fully capable of going potty alone. Yes, he's shown he can't be trusted in the bathroom alone and she knew she couldn't trust him so she went to check on him. 30 seconds later he comes out. I don't know about all of your regulations, but in my state children have to be in sight OR hearing at all times. He was within hearing distance, she mentioned this in her post. And he did it all in under 30 seconds. It goes to show that it doesn't have to take a long span of time of unsupervision for something to happen. It just takes a second. It sounds to me that she was doing her best to supervise him, take care of 6 other children, clean up from lunch, get nap supplies out, change diapers, etc, etc etc. I know how crazy this time of day is. once our children are potty trained, they all go potty alone. I would have been so embarrased at 4 yrs old to tell my teacher each time I had to go potty, and then to have her stand there while I went potty? I would have been mortified! I don't believe children of this age should have an adult or another child in the bathroom with them when they have to go. If they want to leave the door open and have other children wander in there while they're going potty, that's their choice, but I wouldn't make them go potty while being visually supervised (unles they'd shown me they couldnt be trusted, but in that case this dcb of the op was being supervised in my opinion). She had just checked on him. Even if she had stood right outside the door to make sure he didn't have time to play, he still would have had time to put that roll of tp in the toilet and flush. I've had a 2 yr old throw a toy down the toilet before right in front of me. I saw her get ready to throw it in, I immediately grabbed for it, but she dropped it in before I could get it. I reached in to dig it out and *flush*...away went the toy. I would have been considered visually supervising, since I was helping one child wash hands, while another went potty. But it happens so fast, it doesn't matter. Now a 2 yr old is completely different from a 4 yr old. A 4 yr old KNOWS better. Whether they do better doesn't matter. By that age they should KNOW better, especially if they'd been in trouble for messing around in the bathroom already. If it had been at our daycare, the parent would be asked for a percentage of it. 1/3 of it I'd pay just because I was the one responsible for the child at the moment they did the damage. Another 1/3 because of my own child's part in it, and the last third would have been the parent's part to pay. It's in our policy, also. Children know better than to do a lot of things, but choose not to do better. Adults don't give them enough credit lol. If the 2 yr old's toy down the toilet had cost anything, we would have paid for it because it's natural for a child of this age to do things like that. They really don't know better. But this 4 yr old knew better.
The op sounds like she has chosen not to ask for any payment from the parents, that's up to her, but she doesn't need a whole bunch of people condemning her and saying it's her own fault. Until you have something happen right in front of you like this, it would be hard to believe that it could happen if you are properly supervising. But I know from experience how fast children are.

Reply

Yikes!! What a mess!! I have to agree with some of the pp though. Here we are required to be able to see the door of the bathroom whenever a child is in there. It is a pain in the neck sometimes but it is the rule. I would also have removed the tp from the room after the previous issues. If they needed it, they would have needed to ask for it and I would have ripped off just enough for them. Also, I'm suprised that you are allowed to have kids on a separate floor from you.

Reply

I disagree with almost this entire post.

No one is condeming her. She made a mistake like we all have. It's just a costly mistake.

I don't care if a four year old is embarrassed to ask to go potty or to be supervised. They can't be here if that's a problem. I have to supervise them at all times. A four year old doesn't have a say in that. That's decided by grown ups who make laws and regulations... not a four year old and their four year old feelings.

Of course it could have happened right in front of her. This didn't. She wasn't in the room or next to the room when he did it. She was there before but not thirty seconds after.

The provider HAS a choice about how many children she cares for. If seven is too many too supervise the bathroom while doing the other tasks then she has to decrease the number of kids to the number she CAN supervise and do the other things.

This kid showed SO many signs that he couldn't be trusted alone in there. She knew he behaved badly numerous times before. Whatever supervision she is doing today.. could have been done yesterday. She's saying she will never leave him alone in there again... that means she CAN care for him and not leave him alone in there.

Your response seems to me to be from someone who would really never have to pay the damage for this kind of mistake. It's easy to SAY this but paying for it is a whole nother thing. I don't think there are any center employees who could afford a third of this kind of situation.

Reply

I have some first hand experience with this one!

My bathroom is the first left after the kitchen. The kids line up in the hallway to go potty while I am preparing lunch (I check hands to make sure they were washed before they get to the table). One of my kiddo whose not quite four, recently decided to try to flush the paper towel roll. When he came out, he said there was water in the bathroom...I didn't think anything about it until a few minutes later when the fire alarm started. Now, I knew there wasn't a fire so I started looking to see what was up...

WATER!!! Flowing through the ceiling, in to the fire alarm below. Since they are all hardwired, all SEVEN alarms were going off in short order. I got all the kids outside, turned off the water, flipped off the power to the alarm and then called hubby to get his butt home.

I did mention it to the daycare parents who were horrified at their child's behavior. I immediately told them that when he is with me, it is MY responsibility to know what he's up to. He now has to pee with the door open.

In the end, I simply don't think we can really hold a 4 year old responsible for very much...they just don't understand the scope of their actions.

Reply

I'm so sorry this is happening to you OP. I can understand both sides of the "what is the parent's responsibility" argument, but either way, I think it would be nice to have gotten an apology from the family. If this were my child, and I couldn't afford to help you in any way, I would AT LEAST let you know how sorry I was and have my child make you a card or something.

My regs state that we have to be within hearing distance for children over 2, so I wouldn't be in trouble over a supervision issue for a child alone in the bathroom. I would be in trouble for having kids on seperate floors though.



Just a random comment too...obviously the child in the OP's house has shown he cannot be trusted alone in the bathroom, but I totally disagree that all four year olds need to be supervised. I would have become physically ill at four years old if I was required to be supervised to use the restroom. I literally would have held it til my mom came or til I had an accident to avoid that humiliation. Apparantly some of you have children who are not like that. I guess it's a good thing I was never in daycare!

Reply

Unfortunately IMO you are the one responsible since it happened on your watch. But I do agree that the parents should have at least apologized for their child's behavior.

Reply

See here we do not have to actually see them in the bathroom, we just have to be able to see the door to the bathroom. We usually have a teacher who stands right outside the door and the kids leave the door ajar. The teacher can hear what is going on so we can hear if they are playing with the toilet paper or the water. We also will peek in if they seem to be taking an unusually long amount of time.

Reply

Okay, I just have a few comments on these posts, but feel free to keep the responses coming.
1) I did not allow more than one child to go to the bathroom together. One child was in the bathroom.
2) I have taken complete responsibility for this due to lack of supervision (as stated at least twice in my posts)
3) I have followed ALL regulations I have, so PLEASE do not call licensing on me, it's a waste of your time. I know some of you could track me down, but really, there is no point as I have already contacted them regarding the situation. I mean, you can if you want, but they know about it and it will be a waste of both the licensor and my time.
4) I have to be within sight OR hearing of preschool children. I was within hearing and the child was alone between 30-45 seconds. This follows all rules I have. Licensing is aware of my bathroom situation and has approved it.
5) I am capable of taking all of the children to the bathroom, which is what will have to happen from now on. The youngest 2 can go in their cribs and the oldest 5 can come upstairs with me. This is inconvenient, but I am capable. I stated in my post that I am not overwhelmed by the 7 kids I have, and I am fully capable of taking care of them. I will not, however, be able to be gone for more than 5 minutes because I am not able to leave the infants alone for longer. Therefore, all children MUST go potty in that 5 minute span and then be back downstairs so I don't leave infants alone. There will be no 30 minute poops at this house.
6) As far as what am I wanting, I think I CLEARLY stated that in my post. If my child did $3500 (NOT $10,000 as it somehow extrapolated into) worth of damage to anyone's house NO MATTER WHO'S FAULT IT WAS, I would apologize. Accident or not, supervision or not, I would not ignore it. That is why I posted this. I asked if you would be upset if the parents completely ignored the situation. I stated that I do NOT expect monetary compensation, that if I did, I had it in my policy that the parents pay damages, and that I have taken FULL blame for the incident. Was this somehow unclear?
7) It truly was 30 seconds since my last visit. I came down the stairs, placed a sippy cup in a drawer, and they came down. I think I stopped to throw a bib in the laundry basket as I walked by. I did not "lose track of time." Anyone who does not think this is enough time to wet a wad of tp and toss it on the ceiling (and for the record, that was 2 weeks ago, and my DH was in the hallway when it happened...with the door open...and it STILL happened) or toss a roll of tp into the toilet has clearly NOT met a 4 year old. I would say either task would take 10 seconds. I was gone 30...this IS enough time for this to happen.
and FINALLY, AND MOST IMPORTANTLY:
8) I put this on here to get your opinions. If I didn't want your opinion, I wouldn't have asked. My question was, I am feeling upset over this parent's non-chalant attitude, do I have a reason to be upset and/or would you be upset? That is why I asked. I wasn't sure if my feelings were validated, so I asked what you thought. You can call me a horrible provider all you want, but I followed ALL of my regulations, I addressed this issue previously, I did not do anything wrong (per licensing), I have paid the damages, and I have made changes. None of those really apply because that is NOT what I asked. Although, I do again appreciate your opinions.

Oh, and one more thing. The only piece of these posts that does irritate me a bit is the references to me shifting blame. I will still hold my opinion that it is my job to teach a 4 year old bathroom independence. Obviously, we are not there yet and I thought we were getting closer. I was WRONG. This IS MY FAULT. Have I indicated ANYWHERE that I do not believe this is my fault? How am I shifting blame when I am taking full responsibility? This is not a case of me trying to blame others for my actions or of being angered for hearing what I don't want to hear. I do want to hear it, so I asked you. I paid the deductible, not a huge deal, and I am once again (in case it's not clear) taking responsibility. So, how again am I shifting blame? I don't get it...

FWIW, the parent has since contacted me and is insisting to pay half of the deductible. I am not accepting it from him. I have told him that the only thing I want is to work together to resolve the issue. That's all I wanted since the beginning. I don't think I'm wrong to want to work with my families to resolve issues, but we are all entitled to our own opinions, so if you'd rather NOT work with your families, then you can do it differently. I am no longer upset with the situation at all (although feel free to keep adding your input).

Reply

Hugs OP. I'm happy the dad is on board to help you resolve the issue in the future!

Reply

Ditto! Ditto! Ditto!

Reply

Oh, and since you don't have the layout of my home, I can *sort of* see into the bathroom from the stairs. I can hear, the door is left open, and I can see more than half of the bathroom. I cannot see the toilet. Therefore, I do not say that I am in visual supervision at every point. However, I do look in there almost the entire time, I can hear if they are playing in there (unless it's silent playing as it was this time), I can see the sink so I know they aren't playing in there. This bathroom is used for daycare so there are no poisons/chemicals in there and only cold water comes from the faucet. They are not allowed to use the sink in there (they come downstairs to wash hands). No one has ever been left alone for more than 60 seconds...ever..and that's if I was distracted and BEFORE any problems ever occurred. I usually stand on the top step/in the doorway/in the actual bathroom because we have scheduled breaks. BUT, when they have to go at other times, I let them (if I did not this would be a licensing violation-I cannot deny a child the chance to use the bathroom). I knew the child had issues, I was supervising, and we had gone over a month without unsupervised problems. The tp on the ceiling happened 2 weeks ago while my DH was supervising, and the hook thing happened when I was standing on the step (and I walked in immediately after because I was supervising). Safety is a big thing to me and I am certain these kids were safe. Just my house wasn't. Oh, and no, in my 15+ years experience I have never had a previous flush issue. Not that any of this matters, just clarifying.

And I still think almost 5 is old enough to know that playing with tp is unacceptable because it has been discussed so many times. Did he know what would happen if he flushed? Probably not, but he KNEW he wasn't supposed to be playing with toilet paper and he knew he had a "4 square limit" and an appropriate 4 square piece was there for him to compare. He told me from the look on his face that he knew he was wrong. I just want to teach him right from wrong. That's all I want, and he knew he was wrong.

Reply

I am glad the dad offered to pay part.

For what it is worth I have a 4 year old dc girl who uses the toilet by herself all the time.....door closed but not completely KWIM? She has some special needs so she has only been potty trained for about 6 months. Never a problem.

I truly believe that most 4 year olds are completely capable of using the toilet without being naughty or making a mess.

I would keep a very close eye on your two little rascals though!!

Reply

That just shocks me. I had no idea some of you had to supervise in the bathroom.

I almost never supervise. I do check, but I don't supervise. (not after the first five or so months of being potty trained.)

I have never, ever been asked to supervise either. If they need to be wiped, they better start yelling "I'm Do-ne!" Or they'll sit there for a while.

I don't think the kid should have been in a lot of trouble... and I can understand the parents not being MAD at him, but embarrassed, or apologetic, or something to make you feel better about it.

His consequence would be "Guess who's going to be watched each and every time he is in the bathroom from now on". Because at his age, he doesn't want you in there watching everything he does.

I don't know if it will help... but, I had some girls going through WAY too much toilet paper for a while. First, I confiscated the toilet paper, and they had to ask me for some... then I tried smashing to toilet paper tube so it was too much work to get off, and then finally, I bought the super cheap paper wrapped toilet paper from Walgreens and that put an end to the overusage.


Me too!

Reply

Missani, I am sorry if you felt I was bashing. I am having a bad week and most likely did not come off well, again.

I was telling you it happened to me, too, how my State feels about it and their reasonings. Some of it is absurd and impractical at best. I tried many things to skirt around it but finally just had to limit my daycare.

It is one of those hot button issues and I did not think most would be aware of how harshly you can be penalized for an issue like this. I could be shut down during the investigation or worse.

IMHO, The rest of the posters were replying to other PP's that said the parents should be made to pay or the child should be terminated, NOT your original post. YKWIM?

Reply

I'm glad the parents offered to help pay something. I also wouldn't accept it. I let them go to the bathroom at that age by themselves also. They need to be prepared for when they start preschool where they will not get any help or supervision. I also work with parents to resolve problems. One thing I did to a dcb I had that like to use a ton to tp was keep it on the counter and when he had to go I gave him tp to take with him. That way he couldn't use 30 sheets at a time. I had to hand it out to everyone but that really didn't bother me.

Reply

First of all, what a huge bummer! I feel for you, and I would be livid.

The thing is, I would be livid at myself. I agree that it is not the parents' responsibility to pay. I would hope for an apology, but unless they offer I wouldn't expect any monetary help.

Sorry, OP. I've tried to think about the parent's obligation and I cannot in good conscience justify asking for reimbursement.

Reply

Do you supervise EVERY bathroom trip, 100%? If so, how do you supervise the other kids in your care at the same time? I think that is the point. Unless you have a team of helpers, which with in home daycare is not the norm, this is impossible to do. In this case, I think I would term this family. Sorry, but if a 4 year old can't go to the bathroom without destroying my house, then he is outta here!

Reply

I only have eight kid capacity and one helper.

Reply

Just to keep this point from running rampant AGAIN, I am going to say ONE MORE TIME that I am NOT asking for compensation from the family. In fact, it has been offered and I am REFUSING it. I won't say it again, I promise, I just don't want to start another string of posts of "I don't think the parent should pay."

And, I don't think anyone is condemning me or being mean.

Reply

I'm so sorry- I just read to the end of page one and responded...I didn't see there was a page 2, where you addressed this- SORRY!!!!!

And to answer your original question, yesI would expect an apology and be offended if I didn't get one, regardless of fault.

Reply

at 4, they are very capable of going to the bathroom by themselves, dressing themselves and washing themselves. Kids go to school and I know the teachers don't ask the doors to be left open, teachers don't stand and watch the children use the bathroom.
as for the comment that teachers are not paid for bathroom breaks with the kids, well I don't know about you all but my taxes pay for everything school related, we even have papers that are sent to us asking which school board we pay taxes into.
also, I found it rude that it was mentioned that she should have less children so she can watch them go to the bathroom or get an assistance, obviously they make way more money than the rest of us to afford it.

Reply

I realize some states obviously have more rules on things like this. But, if I had a teacher watching and being involved in my four year old's potty-ing, I'd be kinda eeked out. Most kids are smart enough to use a bathroom by themselves.

In our schools the kindergarten teacher will not even go in the bathroom to help. If a child needs help, he or she must go to the nurses office and get help.

Teachers don't tuck in shirts, they don't buckle belts, they don't wipe bottoms. So, if the child isn't autonomous by kindergarten age, they shouldn't be in kindergarten. (not including special needs kids in this statement)

I work hard to give these kids life skills. If they can climb up on the stools, they can be up there... if they can climb the jungle gym they can be up there, But, until they can make it up there themselves, I won't put them up.

I expect WAY more from children than their parents do... and they ALWAYS rise to my expectations.

Reply

i mentioned this on another post a while back,

i would be ticked if i didn't receive an apology at the very least, and i would be upset if they didn't at least OFFER to pay the deductible or a portion of.

i'm glad the family offered, and that they are on board. it's the offer that makes the issue go away.

no matter how tempted i would be to take it, i would most likely refuse the offer for the money. but if they didn't offer, than i would be tempted to pull out the contract and request the payment.

Reply

Because the kids were out of your sight, this family has no liability. Your licensing requires that the children be within your sight and sound at all times. Actually, if I were these parents, I would call licensing to file a complaint against you for admitting that you seem to always leave them unsupervised during their toileting. I guess you don't realize that the kids could turn on a tub faucet and crawl in and drown within minutes? I really can't believe that your post is true - I actually think you're making it up - why would you even think that the family has any liability? You were 100% at fault for leaving the children unsupervised and you would get fined by your state if a complaint was filed. Have you not had any training on supervision of children and the risks of bathrooms and water?

Reply

I don't stand in the potty while the children go and I don't stand there looking at them. The door stays open and I stand in the hallway, generally facing the playroom area while they do their thing. They are afforded their privacy, but they are still being supervised directly. I can hear everything and respond immediately if something is amiss because I am within a few feet of the child. I also do this to make sure hands are properly washed....no direct supervision and half your kids aren't gonna wash after wiping and touching the toilet

Here in Kindy, the children have restrooms in the classroom, so the teacher can supervise.

I don't think children are FULLY autonomous until 5-ish.

Reply

So, if the child isn't autonomous by kindergarten age, they shouldn't be in kindergarten.

You can have a kid that is completely autonomous to do these skills but it doesn't mean they are going to behave in the bathroom.

I supervise the kids going potty but I haven't seen the front of any kid pottying over the age of four. I might see their backside when they are wiping but I don't stand there and LOOK at them.

Reply

I agree. And I think everyone is missing the point. I would be so embarrassed if my 3.5 year old son did something like that. I would want to crawl in a hole and die. I know kids do things. He isn't perfect either, but this was a big, costly mistake for someone. I am pretty sure the first time I heard about it I would have not reacted correctly as I don't think my mind would have grasped exactly what you just told me. But, then you can bet your bottom dollar I would have been on the phone with you apologizing and after much discussion with trouble-maker son, we would have come up with a way to have him 'help' with the situation. My son is only 3.5 and he understands that $.50 will buy him a bouncy ball at wal*art...he knows that $1 is two etc. He would be taking some money from his piggy bank and giving it to you. Obviously, not going to make any difference...oooh, fifty cents!!!! BUT, he will remember that forever, that actions have consequences. I remember stealing a piece of Brachs candy (in my mouth) from the grocery store when I was 4. My mom made me bring it back. Holy cow, I NEVER have stolen again...the shame I felt.

I think they should for sure have apologized and offered to pay some. Of course, you aren't going to take it. BUT, in this world today, the lack of responsibility for people's actions is just sickening and I don't think I could have cared for their child anymore if they hadn't apologized. It would have just given me a bad taste in my mouth that I am pretty sure would have never gone away. The money isn't the focus, it was the basic human nature that they just needed to show some sense of remorse for the unintentional actions of their 4 year old!

Reply

The first part I bolded: According to my state's laws and regulations a child has to be within sight or hearing. Here's what my state's regs say about toileting: "If a child is able to toilet independently, she or he may do so without caregiver supervision." So state regs determined that I could go potty alone if I was a 4 yr old. My adult "feeling" would feel the same way now. I didn't grow out of a need for privacy. Maybe I realized a need for privacy earlier than some children But thank goodness I did not have to worry about a caregiver watching me or hovering around outside the door listening while I pottied (I don't even like going to the bathroom in a store where people are in the stalls next to mine, and can hear every sound I make). Children deserve privacy just like you. They are humans too. If a child shows they cannot be trusted, then of course they should be supervised. My point was that he was not "unsupervised" for a long time. He was in the bathroom where he was still within hearing (which is still considered "supervision" in our state regs. Maybe not everyone else's, but it is in our's). That's all I was saying. I was honestly trying to make the OP feel better about herself, that she shouldn't kick herself too much because a 4 yr old should/does know better, and she did just get through checking on him 30 seconds before. It was all within state regs, as she stated. And she has a difficult set up, with a lot of hassle involved if she has to go upstairs with one child to go potty. That doesn't mean she has more than she can handle, it means some providers have an easier situation or daycare set-up than others.
The 2nd part I bolded: What part of my post made you think I wouldn't have to pay for this kind of damage? I am NOT a center employee. This is a home daycare. There's only the two of us. NO ONE in this business could afford this kind of damage. That's why we have to have policies that say if a child intentionally causes damage the parent is responsible for their part in it. The OP chose not to ask for the parent's part, and I really respect her for that. But rightfully, she could have (at least 1/3, is what I was saying in my post).

Reply

That's my mistake. I misunderstood what business you were in. I thought you were a center worker.

My mistake.

Reply

So with your logic then wouldn't a four year old who shows they can't be trusted still deserve privacy if they want privacy?

My point is that a four year old doesn't get to decide this. Your rules say "may" not must. May is a very important word in child care regulations. Believe me, they use it for a reason.

I don't consider whether my kids want privacy or not. The thought of that never crossed my mind until this thread. I've raised these kids since birth.. there's nothing about them I don't know or have access to. When they are here they "belong" to my heart and soul. I just don't think of them as separate from me so I don't consider they have separate feelings that would take me out of anything they do here. To me going potty isn't any different than going for a walk.

Maybe this is because there isn't a time in their lives when I don't have them other than the few weeks after their birth and they are with me nine hours a day full time. I've never had a single one of them I have had from newborns ever show an iota of modesty around me... just like my own kid. So the idea of them wanting privacy from me is beyond my thinking.

To me it's a supervision issue plain and simple. It has nothing to do with privacy.

Reply

Our daycares are so different, it sounds. Our's is mainly from 2-5 years (focusing mainly on preschool) and sometimes school agers. So a lot of our children don't come to us until 2 - 4 yrs old, when their parents begin looking for a preschool and need daycare for their child also. Some of our current children have been here since about 17 months old, and they're the ones who run out with no pants on, "can you help me?" But I also try really hard to teach them mosdesty, even from that young age. So when their dress flips over their head, I remind them to cover themselves (of course I privately tell them, so the boys don't make a big thing of it lol). So to me, privacy and modesty have always been a big deal, and I try to give it to anyone who is old enough to potty alone. I wish we were able to have the kind of relationship you have with your children, but since ours go to Kindergarten no sooner than they start with us, pretty much, and some only come part time, then we still get really attached and love them to pieces, but that mother/child relationship isn't there Plus with such a low ratio, I'm sure you're able to get closer to your children (and provide one on one supervision for bathroom breaks ). Our children just go whenever they need to, without asking, and I can't imagine it any other way. I feel like it should be a home away from home, for them, so that would include being able to potty like they would at home (Of course the rules are different for a lot of them...like the ones who refuse to clean up: we can tell our rules are different than theirs at home, where mom or dad run along behind them and clean up their toys... or the ones who throw a fit when they dont get what they want immediately: obviously it works for them somewhere...and it's not here!). DCB would have had more supervision than the other children while pottying, but I considered the op as supervising him, going from everything she mentioned in her posts. We could not provide the kind of supervsion this boy obviously needs...and since it would require an extra helper just because of potty breaks, we'd consider him needing more care than we can provide.

Reply

wow... I would be LIVID. I'd give the kid a consequence he'd have to hear about- tell the parents you can't take him for the entire next week, while they do repairs on your home. See how much the parents have to say about his toilet paper games when they're stuck having to take time off work and find alternate care for their little trouble maker. I too have a 4.5yr old of my own- who seems to be NEVER innocent when something 'goes wrong'. we've never had an issue like that, but he has flooded our bathroom before and instead of telling me, ran and hid. It wasn't until I noticed a yellowing on the ceiling [AAACK!!] that I knew there was something wrong lol.

but yes, I'd be furious. GIVE them a consequence. that is unacceptable.

Reply