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maryann 01:04 PM 06-30-2010
I'm currently caring for a 2 yr old boy in my home. I have been having trouble at naptime. He cries, screams, and gets off his mat the entire 2 hours of naptime. I have had to move him away from the other boys or he would keep them awake. My routine with all the kids I watch is to lower the lights, put on soft music, and rub their backs for a few minutes. I usually stop before they are fully asleep though, so that they learn to go to sleep on their own. Depending on the child it typically takes about a week to learn the routine and then they go down for nap with no problem. I have been working with him for four weeks now and there has been no improvement.

His parents told me the way they get him to sleep at home is to let him play until he passes out on the floor and then pick him up and put him in his crib. They do this for naps and at nightime and have been doing it his whole life. I've talked to them many times about setting up a routine and how to put him down to sleep. They always listen and say they will begin doing it but never do.

After four weeks I would have thought he would have gotten used to my routine, but he hasn't. Should I just keep doing what I'm doing or am I fighting a losing battle. I'm seriously considering telling the family if they don't change their behavior at home I can no longer watch him. I'm at my wit's end. Any advice would be great
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JenNJ 02:00 PM 06-30-2010
If he is in a crib at home, why a mat at your home? If he is used to being confined to a crib while sleeping I would continue that at daycare. It may help.
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maryann 03:46 PM 06-30-2010
I have a porta-crib...the first time I put him in it, he swung his leg over the side and climbed right out...that's why I use a mat.
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Golden Rule 05:48 PM 06-30-2010
I feel strongly that preparing a child for daycare is a parental responsibility. THEY have chosen to put their child into daycare and should have done the work prior to the childs start date. I, personally, would never put a two year old in a crib unless he suffered from severe disability. Nap mats are the norm at this age in daycare (I start them on mats at 12 months).

I am the mother of 3 and when I knew it was time to go back to work I chose a center, received a copy of the class schedule, and paid attention to how the classroom ran. I then followed it at home for the best possible outcome for my child......not the provider. My thought was that if my child was acting a nightmare, she would have a harder time fitting in/making friends and that defeated my entire purpose of placing her in group care. JMHO

That being said, you as a provider, do not have to feel guilty if you have given it your best shot. Obviously, without an immediate change, this parent/child is not a good fit for the majority of children in care. Again, it is a parental responsibility to enforce the same rules methods agreed upon at home, if they are not doing their part....let them go.

Pretty simple to me. Not all issues are child issues.....both children I have let go over the years have been parental issues that could have been solved with teamwork.
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Vesta 06:24 PM 06-30-2010
It would be nice if you could help this child develop good sleeping habits.... but it would be much easier for you to do the pat/rock thing and stay with his little butt until he falls asleep. If he opens his eyes, be right there beside him with a book in one hand, other hand on his little hip/lower back pat/rocking, and tell him to close his eyes and go to sleep.
The first time I saw people doing this, I thought it was nuts, but 2 women getting 20 to 30 3-year olds down for nap everyday changed my mind (of course they would be between 2 cots, a hand on each child and just switch to the next pair as soon as they got those two to sleep).
You can work on his sleeping habits or your sanity. My vote goes for your sanity.
You're swimming against the tide with the parents on self soothing.
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Janet 07:19 PM 06-30-2010
In the wise words of Judy...NEXT!
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AmandasFCC 09:33 PM 06-30-2010
I have a now 3yo like that. He's been with me for a year and he's STILL a nightmare at naptime. Takes me 20-45 mins to get him to cool his jets and go to sleep.

Is he sensitive to sounds? It could be that music is making him squirrelly (as is the case with mine). I used to put soft classical music on as background noise and that just made him NUTS at naptime, screaming and bouncing and things like that. I stopped the music and it at least stopped the screaming...

Now he still bounces and goes through a whole host of little rituals before he goes to sleep. It's a pain in the ass, I've tried rubbing his back, deep pressure all over his body to get him grounded, all of the autism tricks to be honest, and they all just made him worse. Lately I've been standing back, watching from afar, reminding him quietly to close his eyes when they're open, but generally letting him get his wiggles out for a few minutes (at least he's quiet about it this way), and then he goes to sleep.

I DO NOT leave the room until ALL the kids are asleep. If they need backrubs, I give backrubs, if they need pats, I pat, if they need a hand held, I hold their hand ...

In an ideal world everyone would go to sleep nicely and naptime would be pleasant for everyone involved. This is not a perfect world and sometimes we need to work for that break we deserve, and if it's a choice between keeping everyone up or rubbing a back for 20 minutes, I'm sure you can guess what my choice is.
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Daycare Mommy 09:55 AM 07-01-2010
If the parents were helping you, that'd be one thing, but they are just letting you do all the work here. For whatever reason (guilt, different parenting philosophy, laziness?) they are not putting him to bed before he collapses on his own, and in doing so making it much harder on dcb and you by not giving him consistency between daycare and home. I'd let them know this is something that will result in termination if it is not resolved in X amount of time. If they don't get on helping you immediately then I'd give notice.
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momma2girls 10:06 AM 07-01-2010
I would tell the parents your situation, if you haven't already, and tell them you would really appreciate it, if they could do the same thing you have to do with him at naptime. If they aren't doing the same thing and are on the same page as you are, it may never work out!!!!
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Janet 12:28 PM 07-01-2010
"The needs of one do not outweigh the needs of many."

Spock-"The Wrath of Khan"

If this quote is wrong, then I apologize but this sums up the message.

If this quote is right, then I am a tremedous nerd who has watched the Star Trek movies (and tv episodes) way too many times and should probably never tell anyone how many times she has been to Comicon!!!

Either way, if one child is ruining nap time for everyone else, including the provider, then it's most likely time to have the child move on.
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gkids09 12:54 PM 07-01-2010
What do you do before naptime?
I had a problem with some of the kids being really "antsy" at nap, until I changed my schedule just a bit..Instead of eating lunch, going outside to play and run wild, and then straight to bed, we now eat lunch, outside to play and run wild, and then come in and read a book, lay down on the big rug in front of the tv, and watch a short movie. (Wee Sing Together and Wee Sing Sillyville are their FAVORITES.) We do this with all the lights off, the curtains pulled, very dim in here. Then, when the tv goes off, the soft lullabies come on. The kids know now to walk to their mats, lay down, and go to sleep. I am not saying this will work with your one, but it could be that they are doing something active before nap, and don't have a calming time..maybe? I don't know your schedule, so I am definitely not sure about this!
Just a thought though..
Another thing I've done is lay by a kid and rub their eyes softly..Weird, yes, but they can't open their eyes or my finger will poke them. lol
Good luck!!
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momma2girls 02:13 PM 07-01-2010
Originally Posted by gkids09:
What do you do before naptime?
I had a problem with some of the kids being really "antsy" at nap, until I changed my schedule just a bit..Instead of eating lunch, going outside to play and run wild, and then straight to bed, we now eat lunch, outside to play and run wild, and then come in and read a book, lay down on the big rug in front of the tv, and watch a short movie. (Wee Sing Together and Wee Sing Sillyville are their FAVORITES.) We do this with all the lights off, the curtains pulled, very dim in here. Then, when the tv goes off, the soft lullabies come on. The kids know now to walk to their mats, lay down, and go to sleep. I am not saying this will work with your one, but it could be that they are doing something active before nap, and don't have a calming time..maybe? I don't know your schedule, so I am definitely not sure about this!
Just a thought though..
Another thing I've done is lay by a kid and rub their eyes softly..Weird, yes, but they can't open their eyes or my finger will poke them. lol
Good luck!!
I do similiar things for quiet time. I have them unwind with tv or a movie on for 1/2 hr. til 1:00 then I shut it off and it is naptime/quiet time.
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professionalmom 03:35 PM 07-01-2010
Originally Posted by Janet:
"The needs of one do not outweigh the needs of many."

Spock-"The Wrath of Khan"

If this quote is wrong, then I apologize but this sums up the message.

If this quote is right, then I am a tremedous nerd who has watched the Star Trek movies (and tv episodes) way too many times and should probably never tell anyone how many times she has been to Comicon!!!

Either way, if one child is ruining nap time for everyone else, including the provider, then it's most likely time to have the child move on.
My husband says the actual quote is "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one." He has not been to Comicon, but he is one of the biggest sci-fi / computer geeks I know. But he is also former military and works for the federal government so it balances his nerdiness. He has also gotten me into sci-fi. I love the Stargate shows and Battlestar Gallactica. We have the entire series for both. So I guess I'm becoming a sci-fi geek. But hey, I change poopy diapers and have to sing/listen to kids songs all day. I need something deep for my precious ME time, to keep my brain from turning to mush.
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Crystal 08:36 AM 07-02-2010
Originally Posted by Janet:
In the wise words of Judy...NEXT!
Do you mean terminate because of nap issues? Man, if everybody were to terminate families over little issues like this, we'd be out of business. I don't think it's that simple....most providers cannot afford to just terminate a child, especially over minor problems....and if a provider is regularly terminating over minor issues word will eventually be out there and parents will AVOID doing business with that provider.

I think you can resolve the nap time issue by being very consistent about routines and rituals.....have a regular routine with time for the children to unwind, make the room conducive to resting, and every time he gets up, gently lay him back down, tell him "it's naptime now, you need to lay down and go to sleep", rub his back for a minute and then walk away. Do it every single time....he will get it sooner or later.

I do the same as what was said above.....lunch, outside time, come in and wash up, change diapers, and watch 30 minutes of television, then off to nap mats. My kids are usually asleep within 10 minutes....all 14 of them.
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nannyde 09:08 AM 07-02-2010
Originally Posted by Crystal:
Do you mean terminate because of nap issues? Man, if everybody were to terminate families over little issues like this, we'd be out of business. I don't think it's that simple....most providers cannot afford to just terminate a child, especially over minor problems....and if a provider is regularly terminating over minor issues word will eventually be out there and parents will AVOID doing business with that provider.

I think you can resolve the nap time issue by being very consistent about routines and rituals.....have a regular routine with time for the children to unwind, make the room conducive to resting, and every time he gets up, gently lay him back down, tell him "it's naptime now, you need to lay down and go to sleep", rub his back for a minute and then walk away. Do it every single time....he will get it sooner or later.

I do the same as what was said above.....lunch, outside time, come in and wash up, change diapers, and watch 30 minutes of television, then off to nap mats. My kids are usually asleep within 10 minutes....all 14 of them.
Nap is NOT a minor issue. In my house it is the number one issue. Every element of my schedule and routine is geared towards one thing: Everybody takes a nap at the same time. A full nap without any adult intervention to get them to sleep. A nap where I can put them to bed WIDE awake and have them put themselves to sleep and sleep THRU nap.

She's worked with him for four weeks. How long is that supposed to go on? Four weeks of no nap break would make me insane. Even with new babies I don't go that long.

She said "He cries, screams, and gets off his mat the entire 2 hours of naptime." That's MINOR? Four weeks of going day after day with NO break and a battle with this kid for two hours a day? Four weeks of charging this family for "group care" and having this kids behavior result in one to one care for TWO hours a day? Four weeks of him waking up the other kids? Four weeks of conselling the parents and nothing is changing? A TWO year old doing this? Not a five year old a TWO year old?

Come on Crystal. You are a Master Teacher. You know that ANY situation where a child who is in group care is requiring one to one care for two solid hours daily it is not MINOR. That is FUNDAMENTAL GROUP CHILD CARE 101
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Crystal 09:56 AM 07-02-2010
Originally Posted by nannyde:


Come on Crystal. You are a Master Teacher. You know that ANY situation where a child who is in group care is requiring one to one care for two solid hours daily it is not MINOR. That is FUNDAMENTAL GROUP CHILD CARE 101
I do think that's minor.....I think that naptime needs to be more of a NON issue with providers. I know it is annoying and time consuming, but consistency will help transition this child to napping when reqired.....PROBABLY. Of course there is a possibility that it will never end, but that's not likely. And, yes, I am a Master Teacher, and as a Master Teacher, I would continue to work with this child to make it work FOR HIM. I cannot say how long I would continue to work with him on it, as it would depend on other behaviors he exhibits.....if he has multiple issues, I'd consider that it may not work and have to let him go, but if this is his ONLY issue, and he is otherwise happy, kind and follows direcction (for the most part) then NO I would not terminate. Ultimitley, our job is to do what is best for the child...giving up on children over minor issues is NOT in the best interest of the child.....

I understand the need for the provider to have a break, but we do not NEED a two hour break....what other job gives you a two hour lunch break every day? And, because all of the other children are sleeping, providing one on one for this child to help him learn to self-sooth and nap should not be THAT big of a deal.

To the OP, only you can decide when you have had enough....I am not telling you that you shouldn't terminate, especially if you are at the point that it is causing you to resent the child (not saying you are, just IF you are).
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jen 10:11 AM 07-02-2010
I don't know about anyone else but nap time is NOT a two hour break for me!!!

I am doing the lunch dishes, preparing the afternoon activity, checking on sleeping kids, answering emails from parents, ordering supplies....

Nap time is a 30 minute break at best. I already work an 11 hour day...I am NOT going to spend my time after hours that should be spent with MY kids, answering parent emails, ordering supplies or preparing activities.

Ultimately our job is, as parents, to do what is in the best interest of our own kids. As providers our job is to do what is best for the GROUP. I can't and I won't take away from my time with my own children at night or from other kids who are fitting in to the routine, because I have spent weeks and weeks trying to transition a kid in to napping no matter how good he may otherwise be.

Obviously, I don't expect miracles on the first day. I do expect a child to be (for the most part) transitioned by the end of the first month.
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nannyde 10:15 AM 07-02-2010
Originally Posted by jen:
I don't know about anyone else but nap time is NOT a two hour break for me!!!

I am doing the lunch dishes, preparing the afternoon activity, checking on sleeping kids, answering emails from parents, ordering supplies....

Nap time is a 30 minute break at best. I already work an 11 hour day...I am NOT going to spend my time after hours that should be spent with MY kids, answering parent emails, ordering supplies or preparing activities.

Ultimately our job is, as parents, to do what is in the best interest of our own kids. As providers our job is to do what is best for the GROUP. I can't and I won't take away from my time with my own children at night or from other kids who are fitting in to the routine, because I have spent weeks and weeks trying to transition a kid in to napping no matter how good he may otherwise be.

Obviously, I don't expect miracles on the first day. I do expect a child to be (for the most part) transitioned by the end of the first month.
And there it is. Simple
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Daycare Mommy 10:15 AM 07-02-2010
I don't think it's just a generic non-napping child issue. That one has been argued to death on these boards. I saw it as more of a uncooperative parent situation. They've never put him down for a nap or to bed in the evening unless he fell asleep on his own. I don't really see how that's compatible with the way most of us do care. (All kids nap at the same time) If this dcb plays through nap and passes out 5 minutes before the other kids wake, then we're stuck in the house until that kid wakes up. "No Sally, Bobby, Eric, Jason, and Elizabeth, we can't go outside for the next 2 hours because dcb is napping and I have to keep an eye on him." That's not a scenario I think is minor. It could be very limiting.

Like I said, if it were me I'd try to get the parents to help by doing the same routine at bedtime that I do at naptime, so the poor kid can have some consistency. If they won't help and I've already been trying for a good month without improvement, I don't think it's unreasonable to give notice.
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DBug 10:16 AM 07-02-2010
I had a little one like this at the center I worked at. I had to get all of the other toddlers to sleep, while he was sitting in my lap (I'd use my legs to make him stay put otherwise he'd run wild). Then when it was his turn, he had gotten a good cuddle out of it and was ready to lay down. To keep him on his cot, I would lean across him with my head propped on one hand -- I wasn't actually touching him or holding him down (against regulations), but if he wiggled he'd bump against me. And I would stroke his face with my free hand. I think having limited movement really helped. After everyone else was asleep, it only took him another 10 minutes or so to drift off. It was worth the work, cuz that child was a wild one!

I don't know if this child is the same, but it's one more trick to try!
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Crystal 10:20 AM 07-02-2010
Originally Posted by Daycare Mommy:
I don't think it's just a generic non-napping child issue. That one has been argued to death on these boards. I saw it as more of a uncooperative parent situation. They've never put him down for a nap or to bed in the evening unless he fell asleep on his own. I don't really see how that's compatible with the way most of us do care. (All kids nap at the same time) If this dcb plays through nap and passes out 5 minutes before the other kids wake, then we're stuck in the house until that kid wakes up. "No Sally, Bobby, Eric, Jason, and Elizabeth, we can't go outside for the next 2 hours because dcb is napping and I have to keep an eye on him." That's not a scenario I think is minor. It could be very limiting.

Like I said, if it were me I'd try to get the parents to help by doing the same routine at bedtime that I do at naptime, so the poor kid can have some consistency. If they won't help and I've already been trying for a good month without improvement, I don't think it's unreasonable to give notice.
I TOTALLY agree with you that the parent needs to get on board and make sure that they are being responsible about ensuring th child has a decent bedtime/naptime and that they teach him to go to bed and fall asleep on his own. I also agree that if the parent isn't willing to help out with this, that THAT may be reason for termination, but not simply because the child won't nap.
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Crystal 10:21 AM 07-02-2010
Originally Posted by DBug:
I had a little one like this at the center I worked at. I had to get all of the other toddlers to sleep, while he was sitting in my lap (I'd use my legs to make him stay put otherwise he'd run wild). Then when it was his turn, he had gotten a good cuddle out of it and was ready to lay down. To keep him on his cot, I would lean across him with my head propped on one hand -- I wasn't actually touching him or holding him down (against regulations), but if he wiggled he'd bump against me. And I would stroke his face with my free hand. I think having limited movement really helped. After everyone else was asleep, it only took him another 10 minutes or so to drift off. It was worth the work, cuz that child was a wild one!

I don't know if this child is the same, but it's one more trick to try!
And there it is. Simple.
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nannyde 10:27 AM 07-02-2010
Originally Posted by Crystal:
I TOTALLY agree with you that the parent needs to get on board and make sure that they are being responsible about ensuring th child has a decent bedtime/naptime and that they teach him to go to bed and fall asleep on his own. I also agree that if the parent isn't willing to help out with this, that THAT may be reason for termination, but not simply because the child won't nap.
Did you miss this part of the OP Crystal?

I've talked to them many times about setting up a routine and how to put him down to sleep. They always listen and say they will begin doing it but never do.
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nannyde 10:39 AM 07-02-2010
Originally Posted by Crystal:
And there it is. Simple.
NO

It's not training him to go to bed AWAKE and put himself to sleep.

This "technique" would not work on the child who knows that all he has to do is ROLL PAST the adults arms or body in order to get up. The adult is just framing the child with her body. VERY VERY few children who have never had to put themselves to sleep in their lives would not realize quickly that the adults "frame" over their bodies would move away if the child did any kind of force or pushing on the adults body. If the adult does not "move away" then they are entrapping the child.

May have fooled one kid one time but most likely would not fool a child who has been successful for over two years at home and four non stop weeks in day care from physically getting past the adult in a split second and getting up.

Rediculous
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Janet 10:42 AM 07-02-2010
but I do need a nice break every day! Crystal, maybe you're super-human and don't require some time during the day to recharge, but I'm just a mere human and I need a little break. Let me ask you this, what time do your kids arrive? Also, what time does your nap time begin? What do you do during the time in between? I know that I need the rest because my kids fall asleep within 5 minutes of laying on their cots, and that's all of them. I don't have to pat backs, or rub heads or rock anyone to sleep. They ALL fall asleep on their own, including the 5 month old baby. We have very physically active days from start to finish. I get my first kid at 7:00am and my last one leaves at 5:45pm. It's a long day! If I had a kid that was a screamer at nap time, I would give them a fair amount of time to adjust, but really...4 weeks? Doesn't that seem pretty unfair to the rest of the kids that are not able to sleep because of the screaming? I'm not willing to put myself and the other children in my care miserable because I don't want to lose the income from the screamer child. It's not worth it to me. Also, naptime IS NOT EVER a 2 hour break for me! This is the time that I do the house cleaning chores that I don't do while the kids are awake and it's the time that I take care of food program paperwork, attendance, billing, lesson plans, and any other paperwork that I have to do. I also squeeze in time to eat lunch and spend some time with my daughter without interruption.

I don't give up on a child's naptime screaming right away. I work with the child for a maximum time of 2 weeks before I decide to terminate. I'm always very upfront with the child's parents about my naptime policies and if there are any naptime issues with the child, I talk to the parents about it. I've always worked with the parents regarding naptime issues and I've only had to term one family because of it (along with other issues). I currently have a dcb2 who I almost termed because he is a naptime screamer, but his parents and I worked out a schedule that works for all of us and lets him have the comfort of napping at home, because his parents schedules are flexible enough to allow it. It's not like I'm expecting kids to sleep during my daily scheduled naptime on the first day, I give them time to adjust. I'm just not willing to put one child's desire to stay up and play ahead of everyone else's need to rest.
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fctjc1979 11:03 AM 07-02-2010
My 16-month-old puts herself down for her own naps. At 10-11am she crawls up into my lap or curls up with her big frog stuffed animal (it's bigger than she is) and goes to sleep. She does the same at 4-5pm. Sometimes she needs a sippy cup of milk, sometimes she doesn't. I let her do this because I only do daycare one day a week and they are older children that don't require naps.

BIG BUT------- If I were going to be doing full time child care or if I had to send her to a daycare home or center, I know that this would not be acceptable unless these times worked with the daycare's times and the provider was ok with the process - very doubtful. It is definitely the parents' job to prepare their child for fitting in at daycare. If parents can't or won't do this, they should be prepared for having major issues with their provider because most likely, if the parents won't work with the provider, this is probably not the only issue they are going to have that will create friction.
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DBug 11:15 AM 07-02-2010
Originally Posted by nannyde:
NO

It's not training him to go to bed AWAKE and put himself to sleep.

This "technique" would not work on the child who knows that all he has to do is ROLL PAST the adults arms or body in order to get up. The adult is just framing the child with her body. VERY VERY few children who have never had to put themselves to sleep in their lives would not realize quickly that the adults "frame" over their bodies would move away if the child did any kind of force or pushing on the adults body. If the adult does not "move away" then they are entrapping the child.

May have fooled one kid one time but most likely would not fool a child who has been successful for over two years at home and four non stop weeks in day care from physically getting past the adult in a split second and getting up.

Rediculous
Hey, I'm just offering ideas. It's worked for me on my toughest kid, and has worked on the more "average" ones as well that need some help learning how to fall asleep. I do wean them off of it over the course of a week or two. No, it won't work for every kid, but nothing ever will. It's just an idea ... no need to shoot it down without having tried it yourself. We all have our own methods, and I think we need to respect that about each other.
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Crystal 11:27 AM 07-02-2010
Originally Posted by Janet:
but I do need a nice break every day! Crystal, maybe you're super-human and don't require some time during the day to recharge, but I'm just a mere human and I need a little break. Let me ask you this, what time do your kids arrive? Also, what time does your nap time begin? What do you do during the time in between? I know that I need the rest because my kids fall asleep within 5 minutes of laying on their cots, and that's all of them. I don't have to pat backs, or rub heads or rock anyone to sleep. They ALL fall asleep on their own, including the 5 month old baby. We have very physically active days from start to finish. I get my first kid at 7:00am and my last one leaves at 5:45pm. It's a long day! If I had a kid that was a screamer at nap time, I would give them a fair amount of time to adjust, but really...4 weeks? Doesn't that seem pretty unfair to the rest of the kids that are not able to sleep because of the screaming? I'm not willing to put myself and the other children in my care miserable because I don't want to lose the income from the screamer child. It's not worth it to me. Also, naptime IS NOT EVER a 2 hour break for me! This is the time that I do the house cleaning chores that I don't do while the kids are awake and it's the time that I take care of food program paperwork, attendance, billing, lesson plans, and any other paperwork that I have to do. I also squeeze in time to eat lunch and spend some time with my daughter without interruption.

.
Of course you need a break every day....I clearly stated that providers DO need a break. And, I also said that ALL of my kids lay down and are asleep within 10 minutes.
My day starts when I get up at 5:30 a.m. I shower, dress etc and am downstairs by 6:00 a.m. I sweep and mop, vaccuum, set up my daily activities, then have a few minutes on the computer. My first child arrives between 6:45 and 7:00. I work until 6:00 p.m. with children, then I cleanup from the day. In between opening and naptime, we do beakfast, circle time and small group activities, play outside, have lunch, clean up, outside, tv time then naptime. I work hard, with 14 kids, and my kids play hard, so they are exhausted by naptime (betwen 12:30 and 1:00 until 2:30 or 3:00) and are easy to put down for nap. Of course, I have had children who needed the extra time and attention at nap, and I give them that....usually within a day or two they begin to nap without the extra attention.

During naptime, I take my break, I do paperwork, which tends to be alot because I almost always have reports to type up for ECERS that I conduct for other programs, homework if I have any, get snack ready, etc. So, yes, I too have a LONG day. But it's my job and I do it without complaint.

Now, I DO agree with you that it is not okay for this child to scream his head off.....and he does need to adjust...and the parents DO need to help out....but as the OP stated, she puts him in another area so that it doesn't keep the others awake. If she is able to do that and it isn't effecting the others, then what is the big deal?

Now, as far as how the parents allow the child to fall asleep, I wouldn't personally do it with my own child, BUT, they ARE his parents, and it is their choice to allow him to sleep that way AT HOME if they so choose. I have several kids who have no bedtime and can stay up as late as they want and fall asleep watching tv....would I do it? NO....but I am NOT their MOm and it's really none of my business. Do I have an issue with them sleeping here? NO. It may be more difficult for them to "get it" when they first start, but they do learn - just as with any other "rules" that are different than home - that it is different here and they will do it HERE the way we do it HERE and they will do it at HOME the way they do it at HOME.

And, FTR, my OP was regarding terminating families over minor issues....it just seems very common for providers to automatically say "terminate". Well, that is much easier said than done, and I don't think it is good advice.
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Crystal 11:27 AM 07-02-2010
Originally Posted by DBug:
Hey, I'm just offering ideas. It's worked for me on my toughest kid, and has worked on the more "average" ones as well that need some help learning how to fall asleep. I do wean them off of it over the course of a week or two. No, it won't work for every kid, but nothing ever will. It's just an idea ... no need to shoot it down without having tried it yourself. We all have our own methods, and I think we need to respect that about each other.
Thank you for this.
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Janet 12:06 PM 07-02-2010
Crystal, if what you're doing works for you, then more power to you, my friend. I live in a house that is like a megaphone. Every sound in my house bounces off the walls and echoes throughout the entire upstairs, so one child even crying or talking to themselves wakes the other kids up. Even just walking across my floor and stepping on this one piece of laminate in my dining room that squeaks is super loud. It sucks because I've accidentally stepped on it and have had kids wake up from it. I've wised up now and marked it so I know to step around it or over it.

It sounds like you keep your kids very engaged and you sound like your days are super busy too. I'd like to have the kind of energy that would allow me to wake up at 5:30am and go all the way until 6:00pm without taking time for myself, but I don't. I guess that's why you might see me as unprofessional. I just know my limitations. I need a daily time to disconnect even just for a 30 minutes, so that I can be ready for my afternoons. It's not really my time if I'm spending it rubbing the back of a child who needs the extra attention. It's also not really my time if I have to play board games or do arts & crafts with a child who doesn't nap. It's not really my time if I have to let a baby sleep in my arms because the baby is used to that at home. The entire point of having the time to only myself is because I need to have that in order to put forth the effort in the afternoon like I do in the mornings. Maybe it's something that only I experience, maybe others do, too. I require a little bit of "personal space" in order to do my best and I always want to do my best.

Crystal, for the record, I don't terminate for just any little reason. I can count the number of families that I've terminated in 6 years on one hand. I've never had families pull their children from my care for any reasons other than job losses, moving, and retaliation because I've upset them and I can count that number on one hand, too. It takes a lot to push me to terminate care. The number one reason that I've terminated families is because it was in the best interest of the rest of the families, my family and myself. I could tell you every reason that I had for terminating care for the families that I termed, and I don't think that anyone, including yourself, would do things any differently.
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jen 12:11 PM 07-02-2010
Janet, Crystal's husband is her full time assistant which really makes a HUGE difference. It is easy for her to talk about what she does "without complaint" because she isn't doing it alone. I too can have 14 kids with an assistant, but getting 14full time kids here is pretty tough. Paying an assistant on less than 14 kids is impossible. It really isn't a fair comparison and truthfully I (sorry Crystal) think she should stop making it.

For me personally, if I did 11 or 12 hours per day without an adequate break I wouldn't have enough of myself left over to give to my kids and nothing is worth that.
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Crystal 12:15 PM 07-02-2010
Janet....please do not think that my debate with you indicates that I think you are unprofessional....I don't think that at all.

I think the suggestion of termination is quite common, but when I read it I also realize that the provider suggesting would probably never actually do it themselves, it's just quick, simple advice....but realistically if we did terminate over issues like this one, we would not be able to maintain a childcare program, because we would never be able to keep all of our spaces filled. And, I realize that on this topic, I am probably a little to outspoken on it, because it really IRRITATES me how often I hear providers say "terminate" when it is not in the child's best interest. And, it's not just here that I hear it....other forums, as well as IRL, I hear it all the time.

So, with that being said, I will back off and try not to continue this debate.....and we can all continue to do what works best for ourselves, our own families and our daycare children.
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Crystal 12:21 PM 07-02-2010
Originally Posted by jen:
Janet, Crystal's husband is her full time assistant which really makes a HUGE difference. It is easy for her to talk about what she does "without complaint" because she isn't doing it alone. I too can have 14 kids with an assistant, but getting 14full time kids here is pretty tough. Paying an assistant on less than 14 kids is impossible. It really isn't a fair comparison and truthfully I (sorry Crystal) think she should stop making it.

For me personally, if I did 11 or 12 hours per day without an adequate break I wouldn't have enough of myself left over to give to my kids and nothing is worth that.
This is correct. And, I do realize that having help does make it a bit easier for me. BUT, I also have 14 children, over half of whom I provide the primary care for, so really it is a fair comaprison. I do just as much work with an assistant, because I care for as many kids as one provider alone. AND, my husband does not do any of the prep work, set up, clean up....his primary job is entertaining children on the playground and handling the financial aspect of the business.

And, I NEVER said I do not get an adequate break each day and NEVER said anybody should not have a break daily. In fact I said that, of course providers need a break, just not a TWO HOUR break.

And, please, don't be sorry, no reason to be, I am not at all offended by what you said!
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Janet 12:26 PM 07-02-2010
LMAO! My husband just came in the door early from work and woke up my dcg that was sleeping! It's only funny today because it's Friday and she's my only kid today. He wasn't even loud, he just quietly opened the door!

This house sucks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Crystal 12:27 PM 07-02-2010
Originally Posted by Janet:
LMAO! My husband just came in the door early from work and woke up my dcg that was sleeping! It's only funny today because it's Friday and she's my only kid today. He wasn't even loud, he just quietly opened the door!

This house sucks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
awwww geez, figures huh? That sux
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nannyde 12:29 PM 07-02-2010
Originally Posted by DBug:
Hey, I'm just offering ideas. It's worked for me on my toughest kid, and has worked on the more "average" ones as well that need some help learning how to fall asleep. I do wean them off of it over the course of a week or two. No, it won't work for every kid, but nothing ever will. It's just an idea ... no need to shoot it down without having tried it yourself. We all have our own methods, and I think we need to respect that about each other.
I'm just having a hard time seeing how you putting your arms and body OVER a kid and not bracing yourself so they would just be touching your arms or body would be enough to stop them from pushing into your body. The impression you are giving is that you aren't touching them but in reality if they touch you and you don't relinquish that position and allow them to "move thru" your position then you are holding them down.

If the child "touches" your arms, legs, or upper body are you moving away so they can move?
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professionalmom 06:08 PM 07-02-2010
I know that some people have techniques that they employ that work for them and that's great. However, there are children out there that are stubborn beyond belief, especially at nap or bedtime. Back in the day, long before I became a mom and daycare provider, I was the free babysitter for my gigantic family. I had a 9 mth old niece that I had to hold at bedtime. She would sleep with me and I would have my arms around her. I wanted to have that much control because I didn't want her to crawl near the edge and fall off the bed. Everytime she started to move, I gave her a gentle squeeze. This went on for 45 minutes before she finally gave up and fell asleep. 9 months old!!! 45 minutes!!! Talk about stamina. However, I do have to admit, she was a red-head, just like me. And we are a stubborn, yet feisty bunch! Some people may have other names for us, but I like "feisty".

As for DC kids, I did have a few where the moms did not want to work with me. Actually, they were purposely setting me up for disaster one day a week. Although I use my nap break to do paperwork and housework, I never considered the nap problem an inconvenience to ME. It was an inconvenience to EVERYONE ELSE. If the non-napper/screamer keeps everyone else awake, everyone else will be cranky and combative. Then the hitting, kicking, pushing, etc starts and someone can get hurt. If they get their naps in at the regular time, all of that is diverted and everyone is pretty much safe. Then there's been the problem where I had DD in her room for nap at the regular daycare nap time and DCB refused to go to sleep because DCM let him sleep in until 9:30 - 10am. So, of course he wouldn't be able to sleep at noon. But he would fall asleep around 2p, just as my DD wakes up. So my dilemma was, do I bring her down stairs to play and wake up DCB who will then be a grouch all evening and probably hit my DD OR do I keep DD up in her room for an ADDITIONAL 2 hours to allow DCB to get the rest he needs now. That would mean I would leave my DD in her room for 4 hours almost straight through. No way will I do that to my child. DCM thought that this was my problem and that I just needed to DEAL with it. No, my house, my rules. Plus, I am not sacrificing my child for a DCK, especially since I do not give DD any special treatment over the DCKs.

The bottom line was that this one kid would disrupt everything for the entire day just because ONE selfish DCM wanted to sleep in. And I use the word selfish because what else do you call it when 1 person thinks that 5 entire families have to have their schedules disrupted for the 1 person who views their WANTS as more important. If you want a caregiver to cater to your every whim and alteration in your child's schedule, hire a nanny or baby sitter. This is daycare. This is group care. We are not telling you WHAT to do at home. We are only telling you how you can make the transition better for YOUR CHILD. Either work with us or your child will be distraught and upset by the vast difference in home care and daycare.

Concerned parents will want to make the transition easier for their child. Period. But the parents who don't want to make adjustments, will find the adjustment to school EXTREMELY difficult. Because schools will not put up with "MY CHILD does such and such at home."
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Former Teacher 07:37 PM 07-02-2010
Originally Posted by Janet:
In the wise words of Judy...NEXT!
Without trying to sound nasty and I am sure it will come out as nasty but by all means I am not...its comments like this that do make me question why some providers even HAVE clients. When you terminate a child because the child doesn't take a freakin NAP, I wonder about how they are able to stay in business if they are (or would) terminating a child even over the stupidest things IE a child not napping.
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Daycare Mommy 03:24 AM 07-03-2010
Originally Posted by Former Teacher:
Without trying to sound nasty and I am sure it will come out as nasty but by all means I am not...its comments like this that do make me question why some providers even HAVE clients. When you terminate a child because the child doesn't take a freakin NAP, I wonder about how they are able to stay in business if they are (or would) terminating a child even over the stupidest things IE a child not napping.
I really don't think that Janet deserves that. We aren't talking about an older kid outgrowing nap; he's only 2, he needs to nap and DOES nap...it's just whenever he pleases due to the fact that the parents never put the time in to teach him how to go to bed. That makes in-home childcare with a group very tricky. The OP probably can't get her naptime work done which may not be the end of the world to some (especially those lucky enough to have an assistant or extremely low ratios by choice), but 2-yr-olds don't have volume control so you have to worry about him waking the others, and also how fair is that to the other children? They are lying down and doing their quiet time nap or reading or whatever and this kid is at the table doing special activities and whatnot. Then it's time for the kids to wake up and this other kid who's been catered to all of naptime is just passing out so now they can't go outside to play in the sprinkler or go to the library like they'd planned on. That's so unfair to the others and wouldn't be acceptable in my daycare either. He's very young, not adjusting despite the OP's efforts for the last 4 weeks, and his parents won't help her by giving him a bedtime routine at home despite the OP's repeated requests. I don't think Janet's comment was uncalled for. The way she put it was blunt, but I agree with her. If the parent's won't help at this point I'd term and start advertising too. And FYI I have clients because I love working with children and have a lot to offer the families who come to me. Just because someone requires a 2 yr old to nap doesn't mean they shouldn't be in daycare.
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Former Teacher 05:25 AM 07-03-2010
Originally Posted by Daycare Mommy:
I really don't think that Janet deserves that. We aren't talking about an older kid outgrowing nap; he's only 2, he needs to nap and DOES nap...it's just whenever he pleases due to the fact that the parents never put the time in to teach him how to go to bed. That makes in-home childcare with a group very tricky. The OP probably can't get her naptime work done which may not be the end of the world to some (especially those lucky enough to have an assistant or extremely low ratios by choice), but 2-yr-olds don't have volume control so you have to worry about him waking the others, and also how fair is that to the other children? They are lying down and doing their quiet time nap or reading or whatever and this kid is at the table doing special activities and whatnot. Then it's time for the kids to wake up and this other kid who's been catered to all of naptime is just passing out so now they can't go outside to play in the sprinkler or go to the library like they'd planned on. That's so unfair to the others and wouldn't be acceptable in my daycare either. He's very young, not adjusting despite the OP's efforts for the last 4 weeks, and his parents won't help her by giving him a bedtime routine at home despite the OP's repeated requests. I don't think Janet's comment was uncalled for. The way she put it was blunt, but I agree with her. If the parent's won't help at this point I'd term and start advertising too. And FYI I have clients because I love working with children and have a lot to offer the families who come to me. Just because someone requires a 2 yr old to nap doesn't mean they shouldn't be in daycare.
I was not directing my post TO Janet. I said comments LIKE that. I guess I was always taught in my daycare years never give up on a child, no matter what. Some children adjust to different things differently than other children. We once had a boy in child care who cried every day when he was dropped off for over 18 months. He was fine once the day went on but the the next day would start all over again.

No matter if its either a home daycare or a center, to term a child because of them not sleeping is IMO ridiculous.
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DBug 07:53 AM 07-03-2010
Originally Posted by nannyde:
I'm just having a hard time seeing how you putting your arms and body OVER a kid and not bracing yourself so they would just be touching your arms or body would be enough to stop them from pushing into your body. The impression you are giving is that you aren't touching them but in reality if they touch you and you don't relinquish that position and allow them to "move thru" your position then you are holding them down.

If the child "touches" your arms, legs, or upper body are you moving away so they can move?
Honestly, I've never had a child squirm to try to get away or get off the cot while in this position (even the wild child). They might wiggle a bit, but when they accidently bump me, they pull back immediately. My face is about a foot away from theirs, I maintain eye contact and remind them repeatedly that it's nap time. After a few minutes of stroking their little faces, their eyes get heavy and they fall asleep. With the "wild child" I did hold him in my lap while I was putting the others to sleep, but he would have climbed the gate and escaped the building or hopped the gate to the upstairs bathroom if given half a chance, so I figured holding him in my lap was for his own safety. But I never had to keep him on the cot. I really think he needed the physical contact to calm down and relax enough to go to sleep. Being in my lap for that long provided the transition -- he had a single mom, dad was up on murder charges, maybe he was missing out on some cuddling at home? I think it's always a good idea to consider what the child's going through and how to best help him or her.

In the OP's situation, this little one would probably benefit a great deal from having a structured day. Yes, 4 weeks is pushing it, but I think I'd probably try to tough it out. However, if it's causing more stress than it's worth, I may change my mind
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jen 09:19 AM 07-03-2010
Originally Posted by Former Teacher:
I was not directing my post TO Janet. I said comments LIKE that. I guess I was always taught in my daycare years never give up on a child, no matter what. Some children adjust to different things differently than other children. We once had a boy in child care who cried every day when he was dropped off for over 18 months. He was fine once the day went on but the the next day would start all over again.

No matter if its either a home daycare or a center, to term a child because of them not sleeping is IMO ridiculous.
OK...please explain something to me...

Why do you think that a provider should spend months on a child who is disrupting everyone elses day? Truly, explain to me why I should allow one child to keep 6 other children awake?

If a child doesn't sleep on a daily basis and I have to spend my time attending to that child, I cannot get supplies ordered or the dishes done, that takes away time from my children in the evening....WHY do you think that is OK.

Has it occurred to you that as an employee at a child care center you simply left at the end of the day? You didn't need to clean up or order supplies...you just went home and that was the end of it? An employee at a daycare center is NOT the same as home daycare. I don't get to punch out at the end of the day. I have to order supplies, prepare curriculum and clean up. If it doesn't happen during the day, it must happen at night. I don't understand how some people don't get that or why in the world they think it is OK to make my own child suffer for the sake of someone elses!

Good grief!
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Former Teacher 09:54 AM 07-03-2010
Originally Posted by jen:
OK...please explain something to me...

Why do you think that a provider should spend months on a child who is disrupting everyone elses day? Truly, explain to me why I should allow one child to keep 6 other children awake?

If a child doesn't sleep on a daily basis and I have to spend my time attending to that child, I cannot get supplies ordered or the dishes done, that takes away time from my children in the evening....WHY do you think that is OK.

Has it occurred to you that as an employee at a child care center you simply left at the end of the day? You didn't need to clean up or order supplies...you just went home and that was the end of it? An employee at a daycare center is NOT the same as home daycare. I don't get to punch out at the end of the day. I have to order supplies, prepare curriculum and clean up. If it doesn't happen during the day, it must happen at night. I don't understand how some people don't get that or why in the world they think it is OK to make my own child suffer for the sake of someone elses!

Good grief!
Oh brother….

First of all FYI, my day did NOT end after I “punched” out. I, too, had to prepare MY OWN curriculum on my own time including weekends (and not being paid for it). No I didn’t have to do the dishes as the cook did that after lunch. No I didn’t have to order supplies either. However yes I DID have to prepare the center (not to mention my own classroom) for the next day. Yes I did most of this during the 2 hours of nap. Yes not all the children slept. The few ones who didn’t I would let them get up and “help” me provided they were still quiet.

There was a 5 year old girl who missed the kinder age cut off. She was growing out of her naps. This child was at the center at 6:30 a.m. She got up at 5:30 am! You would think by 12:30 or so she would be exhausted. Not at all. Mom said she was in bed by 8:00. She was just that type of child In the beginning she would play and get loud. I just explained to her that if she wanted to help me, and in turn get up, then she must be quiet and wait until everyone was asleep. She did. And she was great about it. Granted, she was 5 and this little one we are talking about is younger but still.

Is it aggravating that a child doesn’t sleep? Of course it is! However it is not the end of the world….you can work around it WITHOUT terming the child!!!!!
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QualiTcare 02:35 PM 07-03-2010
i've always laid them down and walked away. i didn't hold and cuddle my own kids to sleep and i don't do it with anyone else's - they should be able to self soothe.

if a kid gets up - i would pick them up, take them back to the mat, lay them down and say "NO. go to sleep" and walk away. if they get right back up, pick them up, lay them down on the mat and say nothing. you might have to do it 25 times, but they will realize they aren't going to win and give up. screamers and cryers - ignore them completely. they will wear themselves out and fall asleep - and realize that you don't care. you probably WILL care and it'll drive you nuts, but you can't let them know. get some ear plugs if you have to and say NOTHING and don't look at them. i guarantee they'll catch on quick. i think you need to stop doing the back rubbing with this kid. apparently nice doesn't work with him.

Former teacher - I know exactly what you mean. some people seem to think kids are disposable and parents are just HORRIBLE all the way around. i've wondered the same thing myself - why are you doing this?

Crystal - you're right. having an assisant has nothing to do with ANYTHING because you HAVE to have an assistant with that many kids. there's nothing "lucky" about it. i'm pretty sure people who don't have their husband's help also have a second income from their husband doing another job away from home - that's so lucky!!
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jen 09:08 PM 07-03-2010
You know what I think is interesting. I have NEVER had a child leave to go to another daycare. In 8 years I've had 2 families move and the rest have been here until the kids no longer needed care. Even the family I recently terminated sent me a thank you note!

I have terminated 4 families. I always do my best to work with the parents and the child, but if it isn't working, and it is distracting me from the other kids, then I simply move on. It's not that they are disposable, they just aren't a good fit and it's stupid to be irritated and stressed about it. Personally, I think its the reason why I don't get burned out. I don't have some crazy notion that I have to make it work with every family. I do my best and most of the time that is MORE than enough. We all have our things we can and cannot deal with. My ADD kid doesn't bother me at all...not the looping, not the hyperness, not the stuttering...all stuff I am perfectly capable of addressing. His parent's are always saying what a "blessing" I am to thier family after having so many poor fits daycare wise. A two year old that won't nap doesn't work for me...so what!

I will never understand why that upsets some of you so much!
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jen 09:12 PM 07-03-2010
Originally Posted by QualiTcare:
Crystal - you're right. having an assisant has nothing to do with ANYTHING because you HAVE to have an assistant with that many kids. there's nothing "lucky" about it. i'm pretty sure people who don't have their husband's help also have a second income from their husband doing another job away from home - that's so lucky!!
My hubby was my assistant while he was in school...it makes a HUGE difference. I have 12 kids so by law I didn't need one, but...when jr. has a blow out and you need to give him a quick bath, having hubby around to read a story or pass out snack is a huge!

Just using the bathroom myself was a billion times easier when dh was home with me. Not to mention getting tiny shoes on, managing the problem napper, or helping with clean up.
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QualiTcare 11:18 PM 07-03-2010
Originally Posted by jen:
My hubby was my assistant while he was in school...it makes a HUGE difference. I have 12 kids so by law I didn't need one, but...when jr. has a blow out and you need to give him a quick bath, having hubby around to read a story or pass out snack is a huge!

Just using the bathroom myself was a billion times easier when dh was home with me. Not to mention getting tiny shoes on, managing the problem napper, or helping with clean up.
it's different when two people are doing the job of one person. if you're keeping 12 kids alone and you're not required to have any help - i guess you're "lucky" if you have help - yes. if you have an assistant because you MUST have one, then there aren't two people doing the job of one person - there are two people doing equal work. when i worked in a center with 2 year olds, we had 14 children on a typical day (me and one other person) and seven 2 year olds to one person was not easy and i did not consider myself lucky to have "help." i considered myself maxed out because the law requires one person for 7 two year olds and that's just the law - not reccomended.

you made it seem as if she can't possibly understand how difficult naptime can be because she has an assistant. she has an assistant because she has more children and luck has nothing to do with it. that was the point.
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Daycare Mommy 07:22 AM 07-04-2010
Agreeing with Jen here. Having an assistant, at naptime especially, makes a huge difference. If I have 7 kids or 14 kids how many are up at nap? If even one 2-year-old is up no matter how many there are total, without an assistant I'm severely limited in what work I can get done. If there is an assistant, one deals with the kid(s) that aren't sleeping and the other gets whatever work there is to be done so the afternoon can run smoothly.

And where I live if I kept over 8 kids I'd need an assistant, so despite Jen's being allowed to have 12 kids without an assistant, that's a 2 person job here. It doesn't get any easier by jumping state lines.
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Daycare Mommy 07:41 AM 07-04-2010
Originally Posted by Former Teacher:
I guess I was always taught in my daycare years never give up on a child, no matter what. Some children adjust to different things differently than other children. We once had a boy in child care who cried every day when he was dropped off for over 18 months. He was fine once the day went on but the the next day would start all over again.
I guess we look at situations where the kid is not adjusting differently. I don't think every child will necessarily do best under the type of care I provide no matter how hard I try. Some kids just like the structured, busy center care. Others are overwhelmed there and feel safer in a home environment. Some kids would do better in a one-on-one situation and basically need a nanny or babysitter instead. Just because mom likes the place and the caregivers love him and want him to be happy doesn't mean junior is served best by going there. From home care to home care and center to center there are tons of differences in how individuals run things that can make the difference in whether that dck is comfortable there or not. I don't think childcare is one size fits all, nor should it be. I'm not going to fight a square peg into a round hole. Sometimes they are better off being given notice rather than staying in a place that doesn't suit them 50 hours a week for their first 4 years of life.
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nannyde 08:17 AM 07-04-2010
Originally Posted by Daycare Mommy:
Agreeing with Jen here. Having an assistant, at naptime especially, makes a huge difference. If I have 7 kids or 14 kids how many are up at nap? If even one 2-year-old is up no matter how many there are total, without an assistant I'm severely limited in what work I can get done. If there is an assistant, one deals with the kid(s) that aren't sleeping and the other gets whatever work there is to be done so the afternoon can run smoothly.

And where I live if I kept over 8 kids I'd need an assistant, so despite Jen's being allowed to have 12 kids without an assistant, that's a 2 person job here. It doesn't get any easier by jumping state lines.
Yes but if you have an assistant that is not in business with you then you have to PAY that assistant for nap. It would cost me a fortune to pay a staff assistant for 2.5 hours a day to one to one a kid. It would mean that I would have all of the childs salary JUST for nap time. I wouldn't have any money left over to pay that child's portion of the business expenses or my salary.

Having an assistant does not change how expensive it is to have a kid up at nap. Time is money in day care just like every other business. I don't provide service to children who do not NEED a full afternoon nap. If a parent would want that service it would cost about 25 dollars per day on top of their fee. By the time they pay my fee plus the extra fee for nap they might as well have a Nanny. Which is the point by the way. If you want care that results in one to one care for a number of hours a day then you must PAY for that service. I don't have that built into my fee. My fee is group care and the group takes a nap. I don't need a staff assistant during nap. I sure don't want to pay for one.

As a provider you are better off having a group of children where they all take a reasonable and fair amount of your individual time. If a child in a group is taking 2.5 hours of direct care every day JUST for nap you will loose money on that child.
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Daycare Mommy 08:42 AM 07-04-2010
Originally Posted by nannyde:
Yes but if you have an assistant that is not in business with you then you have to PAY that assistant for nap. It would cost me a fortune to pay a staff assistant for 2.5 hours a day to one to one a kid. It would mean that I would have all of the childs salary JUST for nap time. I wouldn't have any money left over to pay that child's portion of the business expenses or my salary.

Having an assistant does not change how expensive it is to have a kid up at nap. Time is money in day care just like every other business. I don't provide service to children who do not NEED a full afternoon nap. If a parent would want that service it would cost about 25 dollars per day on top of their fee. By the time they pay my fee plus the extra fee for nap they might as well have a Nanny. Which is the point by the way. If you want care that results in one to one care for a number of hours a day then you must PAY for that service. I don't have that built into my fee. My fee is group care and the group takes a nap. I don't need a staff assistant during nap. I sure don't want to pay for one.

As a provider you are better off having a group of children where they all take a reasonable and fair amount of your individual time. If a child in a group is taking 2.5 hours of direct care every day JUST for nap you will loose money on that child.
Oh no. I wasn't telling anyone to hire an assistant specifically for kids like this. My point was just that it's easy for someone with an assistant to say, "Let them stay up. What's the big deal?" because maybe for them it isn't. It is a very big deal in my small house with paper thin walls and no assistant. If a 2-yr-old doesn't nap, none of the naptime work gets done and most or all of the kids will miss their nap because there's no way I can keep a kid that age quiet for 1.5-2 hours. If the parent's want a place to let him run til he passes out then they need to specify that in the interview process instead of telling the provider they will help him adjust and never follow through.
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nannyde 08:55 AM 07-04-2010
Originally Posted by jen:
I always do my best to work with the parents and the child, but if it isn't working, and it is distracting me from the other kids, then I simply move on. It's not that they are disposable, they just aren't a good fit and it's stupid to be irritated and stressed about it. Personally, I think its the reason why I don't get burned out. I don't have some crazy notion that I have to make it work with every family.

Yup and the better you can interview this out the better. I did one interview in 2008, 2 in 2009, and 2 so far this year. I have all of these kids in my house with the exception of the one I'm in the process of doing the second interview.

I highly encourage spending the time and effort into screening families on the phone and during the interview process so you can get a feel for whether or not the family can work within what you offer.

It's OKAY to say that you do or don't offer a particular service the parents are wanting. If a parent wants a child to be up for ten straight hours a day they just won't fit into our group. It doesn't mean that the kid needs a nap... it just means that the child needs to be in an envrionment where the option to not nap is available.

It aint personal. This subject gets SO personal and it's unnecessary. As women we are just expected to suck it up and do as we are told. As we are told by the parents, the child, and other providers. We don't have to do that. We can stand proudly and say that we don't want to care for the two year old who is up for ten hours a day in our house. It's cool to say what you will do and won't do.
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MarinaVanessa 12:54 PM 07-04-2010
Originally Posted by maryann:
I'm currently caring for a 2 yr old boy in my home. I have been having trouble at naptime. He cries, screams, and gets off his mat the entire 2 hours of naptime. I have had to move him away from the other boys or he would keep them awake. My routine with all the kids I watch is to lower the lights, put on soft music, and rub their backs for a few minutes. I usually stop before they are fully asleep though, so that they learn to go to sleep on their own. Depending on the child it typically takes about a week to learn the routine and then they go down for nap with no problem. I have been working with him for four weeks now and there has been no improvement.

His parents told me the way they get him to sleep at home is to let him play until he passes out on the floor and then pick him up and put him in his crib. They do this for naps and at nightime and have been doing it his whole life. I've talked to them many times about setting up a routine and how to put him down to sleep. They always listen and say they will begin doing it but never do.

After four weeks I would have thought he would have gotten used to my routine, but he hasn't. Should I just keep doing what I'm doing or am I fighting a losing battle. I'm seriously considering telling the family if they don't change their behavior at home I can no longer watch him. I'm at my wit's end. Any advice would be great
I would keep what you are doing and separate the child if that is what you are comfortable with. If this is not something you want to continue to do then I would speak to the parents again (aggravating I know) and tell them how disruptful their child is to the rest of the group. If it were me I would ask them to come up with some ideas on how to put him to sleep and then say that I was at a loss because since the topic of working on it at home has already been discussed and agreed to but no action on the parents behalf has happened yet and so nap will obviously not work. The point of it is to point out that you have duscussed the problem with them, they agreed to a plan and then never followed through. You aren't really asking them for help for a different solution, just pointing out that they aren't cooperating. Usually this will get the parents to cooperate. The problem here isn't just the child but also the parent's resistance to cooperation.

I had trouble with a new 2yo DCG a few months ago that kept crying and getting up during naptime. I layed her down with the rest of the kids on a mat and she would get up (or sit up) and disrupt the rest of the napping kids. I let her cry, reminded her that it was quiet time and laid her back down. Everytime that she got up I laid her back down. EVERY time. If she sat up and cried I told her she needed to lay down and stay quiet and then told her that she didn't have to nap, but she had to stay quiet. If she refused I told her it was ok to cry but she had to do it in the crying corner. I picked her up and sat her in the crying corner and just let her have at it. Once she realized that I didn't mind that she cried she would stop and say she was ready to come out of the crying corner. I would smile and cheerfully pick her up and say "Great. I'm glad you are not crying anymore" or something and lay her back down on her mat. If she cried or got up/sat up again I just did it over again. She eventually started to realize that it was a losing battle and she would not win. Her choices began obvious. She could nap, lay down quietly or sit in the crying corner. This lasted almost 3 weeks. I still tell all of my DC littles they don't have to nap but they have to have quiet time. Within 5-10 minutes they are all asleep. Try this if you like and other methods until you find something that works. Good luck with your case.
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nannyde 03:16 PM 07-04-2010
Originally Posted by MarinaVanessa:
The problem here isn't just the child but also the parent's resistance to cooperation.
Good post

The core problem is that the parents are most likely resisting because in the end it's to their advantage to have him not nap at day care. This allows them to have an easy go at bedtime and he will go to bed EARLY. Getting them to "cooperate" means they have to give up something that is very beneficial to them.

That's wherein the problem lies. If you could get to the truth with the parent you would likely find out that they really don't want him to nap at naptime. If he could stay up he could have the child care provider to himself for two/three hours which is HUGE and they get an easy early bedtime.

The only way to make it not work for the parents is if they don't want to switch day cares. As long as they think you will go along with it there is very little chance they would change anything at home. The end result of the problem for the provider is "easy and early" for them. What the provider is going thru at naptime is exactly what they don't want at home.

Your technique with your two year old sounds exhausting but I'm glad it worked for you. I don't have to deal with this because I don't normally get kids of this age and I have deep play pens that the kids can't get out of at this age. This is going to be more and more of an issue as playpens get more and more shallow on the inside. This is the trend in all baby equipment. For a child this age you need a playpen about 26 inches deep. ( This is the measurement on the inside from the where the kid stands on the mat or bottom of the play pen to the lowest point of the horizontal bar of the play pen. If the play pen has corner posts that allow for a child to grab onto the side and hoist their leg up it becomes even easier.)

As the trend of sizing down equipment continues this issue will get younger and younger.
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Daycare Mommy 05:59 AM 07-05-2010
Originally Posted by MarinaVanessa:
The problem here isn't just the child but also the parent's resistance to cooperation.
Yes! That's what I was saying! Not just a no nap issue, it's a uncooperative parent issue! Thanks for the on topic post!
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Jenjo 07:33 AM 07-06-2010
One thing I do is have all of the kids lay on their mats and then we listen to two books on tape and then turn on some music. That seems to work really well for me. Most of the kids are asleep before the end of the second story. Good luck!
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MarinaVanessa 07:53 AM 07-06-2010
Originally Posted by Jenjo:
One thing I do is have all of the kids lay on their mats and then we listen to two books on tape and then turn on some music. That seems to work really well for me. Most of the kids are asleep before the end of the second story. Good luck!
Oh yes I guess I should also add this. I never thought to talk about what I did BEFORE nap. As a routine we read 2 stories while they all lay down. They all must stay quiet or I close the book. This helps them wind down and transition over to nap-time. Then I may (or may not) turn the tv on with very low volume. So low that even if you are quiet you have to strain to hear it. I put it on the Sprout channel which is very young children. I don't like having the tv on much but it helps when someone is having trouble keeping still. It's funny to watch them straining their faces to hear the tv (i doubt you could hear even if you were right in front of the speakers lol). Eventually their eyes glaze over and they fall asleep lol.

I agree that some parents like not having their kids nap at DC because they think they'll have an easier time of putting them to sleep at night but I found that my daughter was horrible if she didn't sleep. Not only was she fussy during the afternoon but she straight out threw tantrums before betime. She was OVERLY tired. She always napped until she turned 5 and I thought she could handle an entire day without a nap.

Also I have a DCM that said that her DCB was napping too much here (he's an infant and had a 1 hr max nap in the morn and our usual 2 hr nap in the afternoon so he was actually sleeping 1 hour less than recommended) and she said she had a hard time putting him down to sleep at night. She also said that her son COULDN'T POSSIBLY be put to sleep without a bottle. Um ... lady, he doesn't even drink a bottle here anymore lol. He refuses them. I feed him baby food (he's 10 months old) and baby snacks at the same times as the rest of the kiddos and I have a bottle prepared for him that I offer him every once in a while but he doesn't want it. Just shakes his head and scrunches up his face lol. At naptimes I just pick him up and put him in the pack n play and he lays there for a few minutes and before you know it, whudyaknow! He's asleep lol. Cracks me up. I'm a fan of the CIO (cry it out) method and the kids know that I'm firm so they don't push it much. I wish more parents were firm with their kids .
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Janet 11:29 AM 07-06-2010
Originally Posted by Former Teacher:
Without trying to sound nasty and I am sure it will come out as nasty but by all means I am not...its comments like this that do make me question why some providers even HAVE clients. When you terminate a child because the child doesn't take a freakin NAP, I wonder about how they are able to stay in business if they are (or would) terminating a child even over the stupidest things IE a child not napping.
If a child is given enough time to settle in to a routine, and is not adjusting and it affects the other families, then what would a provider do? A child not napping DOES affect others. I don't consider that a dumb reason to terminate. It's something that affect other children, too. Consider this, too. I don't have an assistand so I rely on my routine to work, and if I have a kid who screams throughout naptime, then the routine can't work! It's not a judgement on the child when I say "NEXT", it's just an acknowledgement that I'm not the provider for that family.
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Abigail 04:07 PM 07-28-2010
I would start writing down how everyday goes with naptime. I would also have another meeting at the end of the week and review the papers and have them sign it and date it. Also, get it in writing what they are doing at home to work with you because consistancy is very important and have them sign and date that.

Tell them you are going to continue to document how nap time disruptions go and give them a time frame this must be fixed by or else you'll have to terminate him according to the guidelines in your contract. I think it is reasonable and only fair. You have already been working with him to try your best, but you still need to work on daycare related things during nap time.

Good Luck!
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Tags:cries, naptime, scream
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