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Parents and Guardians Forum Parents and Guardians should post and answer questions here. |
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#101
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My post was made in response to what you shared... If YOUR child is having sleep issues because of a promise (being allowed to skip nap) then the problem is that she has outgrown her care environment and the solution is to move her to a more age appropriate place.... the problem has NOTHING to do with what the provider does as part of HER daily routine (including requiring ALL her daycare kids to nap). Whether she (and you) love her provider is a moot point as it plays no role in what SHE needs and she needs to have an environment that meets her needs and the current one is not doing that. I'm sure leaving her provider will be hard but it's a natural progression of life...she'll probably miss her Kindergarten teacher too...kwim? Last edited by Blackcat31; 03-08-2015 at 08:34 AM. |
#102
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I agree that it may be time to move the oldest. It can be very hard for in home child care providers to combine the different ages. Just because you make a move doesn't mean that once in awhile before and after school. It doesn't mean anyone is or has done anything wrong. It just means your little one is growing up and her needs are changing. It really is a positive thing more than it is a negative. Sometimes keeping things they way they always have been just because they have always been that way is the wrong thing to do. Would you not send her to school just because she has never been there and that had been working fine? Of course not, school is part of her growing up! It is a good thing! This is the same really. It may be sad in some ways, but it is also pretty awesome in others.
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#103
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#104
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Kids grow up and move on. That's a fact of life. Your daughter would probably love a program meant for school aged kids. I know your case is different as the provider wanted your child to stay, but as the parent you do need to do what's in your child's best interest. |
#105
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There have been studies that have been conducted that show that napping during the day affects sleeping during the night inversely. This is a result of this study conducted by the National Institute of Health.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21075238 This study actually shows that sleeping during the day affects cognitive skills adversely. The reason is that naps during the day (especially when they are not needed anymore) cause restless and less quality sleep at night, and this affects cognitive skills poorly. I don't think we need a study to figure this out as it is common sense. I agree that all children need naps but to a point. Both of my children stopped taking naps at 3. They naturally weened themselves from napping. Now my 6 and 4.5 year old are at pre-school and the 4.5 year old is forced to rest/nap. He won't sleep at night and won't get up in the morning. We have very good routines. The 4 days he is not in daycare he sleeps on time and gets up by himself feeling energetic and happy. I can't say the same thing for the 3 days he is in daycare! The nap laws were probably established because children were getting hurt in daycares. Let us rememeber that the laws in place to protect the children! Everyone needs a break, yes I get it! But if you don't get a break, the children get hurt. Remember the real reason why there are laws in place to begin with. I also have learned that no one will raise your own child like you. Never forget that and never stop being an advocate for your own children because no one else will. And if your demands are not being honored I would suggest look arround until you find a high quality daycare that will honor them. It may cost more but it is worth it in the end! |
#106
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Naps (brief sleeps) are a global and highly prevalent phenomenon, thus warranting consideration for their effects on cognitive functioning. Naps can reduce sleepiness and improve cognitive performance. The benefits of brief (5-15 min) naps are almost immediate after the nap and last a limited period (1-3h). Longer naps (> 30 min) can produce impairment from sleep inertia for a short period after waking but then produce improved cognitive performance for a longer period (up to many hours). Other factors that affect the benefits from the nap are the circadian timing of the nap with early afternoon being the most favourable time. Longer periods of prior wakefulness favour longer naps over brief naps. Those who regularly nap seem to show greater benefits than those who rarely nap. So I am wondering where you read the things you posted as the link I clicked into seems to support napping as a benefit. |
#107
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Wrong link blackcat! Geez sorry about that.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3095909/ This study was done on preschoolers. |
#108
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I think the article states exactly what most providers already know... if kids are given a good sleep routine at home ALL the time, their NEED for an afternoon nap will decrease as they age. It's the same for adults...if we get good restorative sleep at night, we don't need to nap, drink pots of coffee or energy drinks to stay alert and awake during the day. Unfortunately most kids now days don't have good sleep routines at home. They sleep in the car, are kept up way too late or sleep with the TV on etc etc... and then need to get up early and go to daycare, thus causing them to be sleep deprived during our time with them....only to go home and have the same cycle repeated. The article says "Restricting daytime naps in preschoolers who lack the opportunity or ability to increase their nighttime sleep might further impair performance significantly" and that part is SOOOOO important. It's an issue that both parents and providers pass off onto one another and one that is easily solved by making sure both parent and provider are on the same page and have the same expectations for the child as well as open honest communication. It's like you said.... YOU know your child better than anyone. If you don't believe your child should be napping at 5 yrs old, but the child care still requires it, then it's on YOU to find a care environment that provides the care your child needs. I personally will NEVER use the argument that my daycare kids have to nap so I can get a break... (I actually cringe when I read that posted by providers but that's a whole 'nother topic of discussion ) and I don't believe nap laws were put into place for that reason. I believe rest is required in care environments because the activities the children here participate in make them tired...both physically and mentally so they usually need a bit of down time. I don't require kids to sleep but I do require them to rest quietly (I play audiobooks to listen to) for a minimum of 90 minutes. During that time, I am usually feeding a baby or attending to those kids that rest twice a day and are awake during the older kids' rest time so for me that chunk of the day isn't devoted to me and my needs.... Anyways, it was an interesting article but it was done in a controlled environment with a lot of hypothetical elements added in but ultimately I do think the article was informative and useful. It clearly states that each child's brain and cognitive skills develop individually and not all kids mature at the same rate or pace so it's important that parents pay attention to this and find the care environment that best meets the current developmental needs of their child. In my program, once a child matures beyond needing a nap, they have outgrown my program as a whole. Thanks for sharing the article though....it was a great read and had some interesting points. I would love it if they conducted this same study in a clinical environment and see if the results are the same or even similar. |
#109
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AMEN!!!! My 3 year old (and 10months... So almost 4) just fell asleep at 10pm because his daycare insists he nap for two hours every day! He doesn't nap at all on weekends and goes to bed like a charm by 8pm! I AM SO TIRED of hearing their excuses for why he has to nap!!did any of you brainiac daycare workers consider the fact that some children are napping because they aren't tired at bedtime because they are awake until 10pm, OF COURSE THEY ARE TIRED BY 12:30pm.... They only got 8 hours sleep the night before!! I do not have the option of another daycare as none in my area offer an early drop off other than this one. BEYOND FRUSTRATED |
#110
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Sorry but your 4 year old who's brain, organs, immune system and the rest of his body is still growing at a rapid rate and the only things that will allow your child to do this in a healthy major is with sufficient sleep. Perhaps you can familiarize yourself with Maslow's hierarchy of needs. The first thing on it is SLEEP, without it we would die. And without sufficient sleep we can not function with success I'm not going to get into it and debate this. All children under 5 need naps. I'm 42 and I need naps when I miss sleep. |
#111
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#112
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As a registered provider, it is mandated that a minimum 2 hour rest period be allowed for children under age 5. I also prohibit drop ins during the nap period as it disrupts the other children. If a child needs to leave early, the parent texts me and I quietly remove them from the nap room and meet the parent at the door with the child. I don't require age 5 and up to nap, but they must have a quiet period during this time as to not disrupt the others. As a group care environment, we cannot make individual accommodations, so please don't request that when you already knew the routine of the program before enrollment. We are not your employee, and our program won't be modified to your requests. You pay tuition to attend our program...just as you pay a dance instructor for your child's dance lessons...you are paying for a service, not my employment. I will be employed regardless of your child's enrollment. Perhaps a nanny you could employ would be a better fit for the OP?
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#113
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Bahaha! What she said.
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#114
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If he truly does not need a nap, why are YOU keeping him there? In my opinion that decision falls on the PARENT not the provider. The child care facility has a right to have AND enforce any rule they want....including requiring ALL children to nap. As a parent YOU have a right (and an obligation) to do what's best for your child.....so WHO'S fault is this? The 'brainiac' provider or the 'irresponsible' parent??? |
#115
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#116
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#117
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Also, you cannot FORCE them to sleep at night and we do not/cannot FORCE them to sleep at nap if they aren't tired. I am legally obligated to provide rest time accomodations, and if a child sleeps, they obviously need it. Quote:
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#118
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Every child is different
It is a silly policy to regulate naps. Every child is different. Those of us that have more than 1 child know that. In fact, I have twins. 1 twin needs about 1 hour more sleep than the other. As they are preschoolers, they fall into the cdc definition of "needing" 11-12 hours. So, one of my twins actually is smack dab in the middle (needs 11.5). The other is on the lower end, needing only 10.5. A daycare that forces a policy of 2 hours at naptime therefore ensures this child doesn't fall asleep until 9:30 or 10pm at night. That's not healthy.
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#119
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Ok, what time should a teenager go to bed?
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As a teenager I think my bedtime was 10pm. Putting a 3 or 4 year old to bed at 10pm is ludicrous. |
#120
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Generalizations are not all that helpful
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Just as the cdc indicates preschoolers need "in general" 11-12 hours of sleep daily, the generality of the statement implies it likely covers a lot, but not all, kids. I have twin 3 yr olds. One needs about a 90 min. nap daily, the other 30 min. This ensures they go to sleep at night at a healthy time (asleep by around 8-8:30pm). Falling asleep at this time is healthier for them, as they get a longer chunk of total sleep at night (from 8pm to 6am). A daycare that forces my child to nap 120 min. "steals" her nighttime sleep away from her. Then, she only sleeps from 9:30pm to 6am, becomes super cranky and is tired all day. Then, the daycare will 'let her nap' for 2 hours because she is tired. The daycare needs to work with the parents to ensure the best health of each child. |
#121
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#122
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#123
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#124
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The PP said she puts her child to bed at 10 when he has a nap, not me. If she cannot get her kid to go to bed at an earlier time, that is not my problem. My almost 4 year old takes about a 2 hour nap everyday and is still in bed by 8:30. It is called parenting. Making a child skip a nap they NEED so you can get them to bed at 8 after not seeing them all day is pretty ludicrous to me. And ten is not that late, imo. If they get up at 7, that is 9 hours, plus a 2 hour nap and they are right on par with the amount of sleep a young child needs. Easy Peasy!
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#125
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#126
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Working in concert with parents to maximize child health
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Sorry I mis-spoke. It's not about 'forcing' a child to sleep. What I meant was 'not waking a child up when they need to be woken up to ensure they get an optimal sleep at nighttime'. Just because a child will nap for 2 hours doesn't mean that's best for the health of the child. Think about it. |
#127
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Parenting is about knowing your child
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Sorry I disagree. Parenting is not about following what some book says about what an average kid should be doing. It's about knowing your own child and what they need. Lucky for you you have a child that naps well and also sleeps well at night. That makes you lucky, not necessarily a better parent than anyone else. I know my child. She needs 10 hours of sleep at night, and a 30 minute nap. When she gets that, she is an angel. Why do I have to fight my daycare to ensure she only naps for 30 minutes? If THEY let her sleep longer, it is less healthy for her as she won't get a good sleep at night. The the vicious cycle ensues (tired during day--long nap--won't sleep at night). The onus is on the daycare to follow what the child needs, and if the parent knows they need less sleep the daycare should respect that. They are harming my child by letting her nap too long!! |
#128
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Different in every jurisdiction
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In Canada (Ontario), the law says a child must be offered a rest period, but does not have to sleep, and that sleep/rest/quiet time should be afforded the child based on need. Every child is different. http://www.ontario.ca/laws/regulation/150137 (2) Every licensee shall ensure that the program in each child care centre it operates is arranged so that, (a) each child in a licensed toddler or preschool group who receives child care for six hours or more in a day has a rest period not exceeding two hours in length; and (b) a child in a licensed toddler, preschool or kindergarten group is permitted to sleep, rest or engage in quiet activities based on the child’s needs. |
#129
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Why is it the daycare's fault that you don't like their routine? It is your responsibility as a parent to look out for your child's needs. |
#130
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#131
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Daycares should work together with parents?
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I pay the daycare to watch my child. I am therefore their employer, they are my employee, you would expect they would work with me on this. Yes I can 'fire' them. The thought has crossed my mind; but all of this is a recent development, so it is a definite consideration (though a huge hassel to move them elsewhere...finding spots for 2 at once is never easy). |
#132
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#133
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My daycare families are my clients, not my employer. I am the boss. Can you imagine having multiple bosses, with different expectations, often conflicting, and each expecting you to follow their rules? I don't allow my parents to make the rules or set the policies. I can't. I have my policies in place because they work for me and my daycare. Not all parents agree with them. That's fine. They don't sign on because we aren't a good fit for each other. I am not unreasonable but if a parent request is in conflict with the good of the group it is not going to happen. Why don't you discuss your issues with your daycare centre or provider? Sounds like your children's needs have changed and are no longer being met by that particular daycare. Therefore, the onus is on you to find something that does meet their needs. I have similar rest policies. I can't force a child to sleep. I can't force a child to stay awake. I will not wake a child before rest is over. I have turned parents away who don't agree. Parents have not signed on with me who don't agree. We are not good fits for each other. That's fine. I'm ok with it. If a parent doesn't want their child to participate in rest time, then they are no longer a good fit for my program. I would be replacing them pronto with someone who was. |
#134
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Now, let's be productive. Have you spoken to the center/child care provider regarding this? What was their policy on naps? Is your child promptly falling asleep at rest and sleeping how long? I will also be honest- MOST 3yo's still need a nap. Daycare is MUCH different than a lazy day at home. They are physically, mentally and emotionally stimulated. That is why we have regulations about the necessity of down time. 3yo's are also challenging. Most parents have dealt with minor issues with their 2yo's. 3's are MASTER manipulators and need much more consistency, and a harder line with rules and routines. Is your child staying in bed, behaving, wide awake staring at the ceiling or getting out of bed 100x? |
#135
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#136
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This discussion is getting so old, it should be dead by now.
As daycare providers providing care for a group of children, we need to do what's best for the group of children, and we need to provide cost-effective care for parents. Part of the way we do that is most of us require an afternoon quiet time. If we didn't, we'd need to provide another staff member just for awake children. Most parents aren't willing or able to pay for that staff member. If one child is awake, what are the chances that he or she will be quiet enough to allow the other children to sleep? Having two children at home is a very different thing than having 7-10 in a daycare setting. Have you ever been to a child's birthday party? That is what childcare is like...a birthday party for 1-5 year olds EVERY DAY. Oh...and all the parents left the hostess in charge. Seems to me that I wouldn't go to my husband's car dealership and tell him he's selling cars wrong, or go to my local hospital and tell the nurses how to do their jobs. I don't DO their jobs, so I simply don't have the experience to say "this is how it should be done". Even center people and family childcare people differ in their approaches because of staffing and space. I've never known a customer service based business person to say "I'm going to do whatever I want...screw the customers". That's NOT our motivation. It's ridiculous. We do what works and follow our regulations. Sometimes, we can't please everyone. You woudn't go to your bank drive thru and get mad because they can't give you 20 rolls of coin through the drive up tube (I hope). They can't do it, they won't do it. It's unlikely you'd find another bank that will. There's a reason...it DOESN"T work! |
#137
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#138
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oops quoted wrong reposting!
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#139
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Not until you start paying my taxes, my unemployment insurance, my medical insurance as required by federal law and all the other things required by law that you pay as an employer. I run my own business, I work with myself and you you made this statement to me, I wouldn't work with you at all you would be looking for a new provider the same day you said it. Your "hassle" to move them elsewhere wouldn't matter to me a bit at that point. |
#140
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Few people I encounter have kids with as little nap needs as my kids, so I see why it's hard to understand - some kids just don't need much sleep. Kids have different needs, and the best child care will adapt for the children that they have in their care. |
#141
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True--kids do have different needs. You, as the parent, have the responsibility to find a childcare program that meets the needs of your child. ETA: In my state, rest time is mandatory for a minimum of one hour for all children not yet enrolled in school. It's not an option to just not lay down a 2 yr old at all. |
#142
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YOU need to find a child care that fits your needs as child care programs can't adapt to ONE child's needs so GROUP needs outweigh INDIVIDUAL needs. If your child can't adapt to the group/program's routine or requirements then you need to find other care arrangements. fwiw~ my own kid stopped napping at 15 months and slept about 6 hours a night total. Still that way today, 25 yrs later. I am similar and require little sleep to function so I completely understand what you are saying I just don't agree with the thought that child care's need to adapt to individual children's needs when it comes to certain things. |
#143
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My kid requires a lot less sleep to function than most. He's 4.5y and in center daycare. They do 2 hour naps, it takes him an hour, sometimes longer to fall asleep, many times he does not nap at all, but he must rest on his mat. They will give him a quiet activity if he has not fallen asleep by a certain point. Thankfully my daycare does not have a policy against non-nappers (as they take school aged), but they will not allow him to be disruptive. I have had notes sent home that he was disruptive at nap time and we do our best to address that behavior.
He has a very difficult time at bed time 8pm, also. Many times he is not actually asleep until 10pm. He lays in his bed and his mind races. We have tried everything to help keep his mind at ease, but he is a worrier and will also do things to ensure he stays awake; play with his sheets, rub his eyes, etc. I agree with whoever said that kids are different and they sleep different, just like adults. Just because your kids are in bed by x time and sleep through the night does not make you a better parent. There are plenty of great parents who have difficult sleepers. |
#144
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In response
I'm sorry, but, as a parent, I do know there us a direct correlation between nap times at 4+ and bed times. My daughter does not nap at home and goes to bed easily by 9pm at the latest. All week we struggle to get her to bed by 10:30. Common link, 2-3 hour nap. If a child is placed on a mat in the a quiet place with soft music and so are all the others kids, of course that are going to sleep. Monkey see monkey do with a group of kids. I see no reason why there can't be a dedicated room for the older kids to have quiet time activities.
I'm sorry, but this is forced behavior and can be modified easily. We do it at home with no issues. As for jumping all over the guy for dtopping in at nap time, get over it. It's his right to check in at any time. He pays to be there and that's his right as a parent whether it upsets your staff or not. |
#145
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Who supervises the children while they are in separate/different rooms? What you do at home with no issue has NO bearing on what providers do with a group of children that are usually a mixed age group too...that's comparing apples to oranges. As for stopping in at nap time, sure....he ABSOLUTELY has that right. But I also have the right to terminate a parent that disrespectfully puts their needs/wants ahead of the GROUP of children's needs. This dad is MORE than welcome to stop by, but he needs take his child with him when he leaves. Assuming that payment equates to being in charge is the silliest notion I have ever heard of. Just because you pay does NOT give you the right to dictate how someone runs their business. He pays for his CHILD to be there. He does NOT pay to be there himself. The amount of unhealthy, untrue and ridiculous information posted in this thread by parents is laughable but sad at the same time. Instead of trying to dictate how a group providers manages her daily routine, your time would be more effective if you focused on managing your issues with sleep and naps. If your child is getting 2-3 hours of nap and it's causing issues for you, why would you leave your child in a program that isn't suited for her? As a parent that is your duty and obligation. |
#146
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I have children who do not nap, they do lie quietly with books while their friends rest. They are on the same routine as the other children. I CANNOT force a child who is NOT tired to sleep. On days off/weekends, do you get your child up early/same time? I highly doubt it. These kids CANNOT be awake from 6am-9:30pm, which is exactly why the state stepped in and MANDATED rest times for ALL children enrolled in a full day program. |
#147
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#148
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Selfish parents
Who's selfish? Providers don't need breaks from wiping butts, noses, chasing a bunch of kids around?? Is that the regard You have for those who take care of your most precious possesion? My parents bring me flowers and wine! Do you think that your child can't be replaced that same day that you leave for another provider? You obviously just want to put your kids to bed so you can have me time. Just like the parents who don't want their kids to have any screen time during the 9+hrs at daycare so that they can park them in front of a screen at home. You made the decision to breed, did you not consider the sacrifices.
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#149
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Totally agree
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#150
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#151
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They say "Daycare is lazy" but daycare is doing what is developmentally appropriate, state required (rest period) and best for the child. At daycare they are BUSY all day and MOST children I have cared for really NEED a nap. There is very little down time, unlike home. Why can't we say parents are lazy? (or just want an easy night with kids who pass out from exhaustion right after dinner?) |
#152
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I have seen it time and time again, parents blaming me for crappy night sleep. I lie and tell them their kid didn't nap and by some miracle night sleep improves. I am so over it
None of these kids are getting proper sleep and I have seen it. A 2-3-4 yr old going to be at 9pm?? My 8 yr old goes to bed at 8:30 and my 4 yr old is in bed at 7. They both wake up at 7-7:30am. If your kid comes to me exhausted they nap. End of story. Having a space at a daycare is kind of like buying season tickets to football. You may not like the choices the coaches are making but no one forced you to sign up. |
#153
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Still trying to get my 4year old asleep!
Still trying to get my 4year old asleep! If he wouldn't of had that 2hour nap at school bet he would be asleep by 9-9:30pm!.... He stays up so late because he simply isn't tired at night because he was made to fall asleep in a dark cozy room for 2or3 hours! Then it's crazzzy hard to get him to wake up in the morning because he went to bed so late! I don't get a 2or3hour nap so I'm dead tired during the week after staying up so late trying to get my child asleep! Love our weekends he gos with me to my full time job and i also have my own grooming business on the side. On the weekends he gets no nap and is ready for bed on Saturday and Sunday and wakes up great for going to work with Me! I wouldn't even use a daycare but it's not practical for me to take him to work 7days a week while I work 2jobs just to make it. It's very sad there are cold heart people that do not understand what parents go through. They can't do there job/part to help out the parent a little bit...
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#154
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Still trying to get my 4year old asleep!
Oh and it's really 11:30pm
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#155
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Yes but if your child is allowed to stay up all the kids will want to, and wont understand why they cant. even if your child is quiet the others will want to watch what he or she is doing or copy them. Makes it hard. Im guessing your childs not being forced to sleep but asked to lay on a cot and rest and falls asleep. You could ask your daycare to wake your child after a hour, which would mean better night sleep. do you have a nightly routine?
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#156
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I have a state required rest period (it's a regulation for me to have this, cannot 'opt out') and all children lay on their mats for 30 minutes. After that, children not sleeping are able to get up and go into a side room adjacent to our nap room IF they're quiet. I say if it isn't working for you, find a program that does. If your child fell asleep at my daycare, I would not be waking him up either. You cannot blame daycare for something that is very necessary in a GROUP care setting. Everyone has to be on the same schedule or it's chaos and impossible to meet the NEEDS of each child in care. At 4, what about afternoon preschool? Are you wearing him out at night? my daycare kids go to siblings sports, play outside, playground, and have a solid dinner/bath/story/bedtime routine. NONE of my parents have issues. They also nap them on the weekends when needed (eg. child did not sleep in to make up for that time) |
#157
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me too, if I had to drive home from work, I'd be lucky not to fall asleep on the way
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#158
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Every child has (and should) their nap time, it promotes health both in mentally and physically.
What we must concern is not about range of time but more to quality of the sleep or nap. If a child sleep in a noisy environment, they might not get a quality sleep even if they sleep for 3-4 hours. But if they get good quality sleep a one and half hour sleep is more than enough. It is true that lack of sleep or nap could lead to distraction of focus in learning something new at daycare or at home. But forcing a children without knowing the background of why they could not take a nap at the daycare schedule is a "rude" way on handling or nurturing children and is not acceptable. (May be the child just wake up at 9am and if you force them to sleep at 10 or 11am they might get frustated instead of following the daycare schedule) So communication with parents is crucial and have to tell them to adjust the children wake up time if possible. Mostly children would sleepy in 5-6 hours after they wake up and do some activities. Best, Trust DayCare |
Tags |
demanding parents, group care, nap times, naptime issues, no naps, parental life choices, parents wanting special, sleep - length, the post that would not end |
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