I know many of you read my other post about a recent licensing citation I received after a disgruntled parent with a very poorly behaved 18 month old filed a complaint on me when I had to term her son for aggressive behavior after caring for him for 5 months. (By the way, I truly thank everyone for your comments and support) <3

So - now, my question is this ... I am in the State of California where restraining a child (high-chair, pack and play, play pen, exersaucer, bouncy, etc.) is illegal - and apparently, though it is written NO WHERE, day care providers are found to be violating children's personal rights if they use the method of time out for children younger than, say, 3??? (No one at the Community Licensing Office seems to be able to give me a parameter there, but my hand was slapped by them anyway. ) And according to the Licensing Supervisor, they also told me that children at 18 months do not understand verbal expectations related to behavior ("No, no Johnny - we do NOT hit our friends.") and that perhaps I cannot "meet the needs of children under 3" if I do not understand this.

What methods have you found successful when a toddler will not stop a destructive behavior (i.e. hitting, shoving, spitting, clearing toys off of shelves and throwing them) after repeated verbal commands, redirection and placing them in other play areas using distraction? Do you just terminate them immediately?

Basically I was cited for not terming this child PRIOR to using the time-out method as a last resort. Moving forward, I am at a loss as to what is both acceptable in dealing with these behaviors (in the eyes of the State) and effective.

What do you do with unruly toddlers in your care and when do YOU term?

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I am not in CA, but our rules are the same. (Edit: We are not allowed to use time out at all. It is the most commonly abused/misused method so they just took it away.)

For discipline I expect certain behaviors before they happen, recognize the root issues/behaviors and prevent them from escalating. If they beat me to the punch and display an unwanted behavior, redirection is my only recourse.

If my redirections are not working with a particular child after I have given it my best effort, to include a signed discipline plan, a specified period of intervention time and MUCH documentation, I know I am unable to meet this childs needs.

I term when I can not meet the childs needs.

I know it sounds simplistic, but most of this is about getting rid of the emotional response, tempering it with a preplan and "professional" language.

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I must be really lucky right now and in the past as I have never had any real issues with children, but I also only take children 20month to 5 years of age.

I however do have a child that is 18months old of a sibling. I have had to separate her from the kids when she knocks over their towers or what not, but I created a space for only her and gave her toys to play with. I guess one could call it time out, I just didn't give it a name.

Ugh I feel so bad for you......I actually had a dream about this last night that everyone from here went to boycott CA licensing because of this...lol then I woke up.

What has happened to you makes me feel so unsafe in my business and I have even lost a little bit of confidence. It's like we are set up to fail.

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...but Daycare, setting up that "neutral space" IS a preplan.

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lol NOT always.... but I know what you are saying

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We are taught that a 9mo old child is capable of understanding the same basic commands of a full grown dog, ie; sit, stay, no, down, etc... so why is an 18mo old incapable of understanding them? Bad parenting and government control. I'm sorry but what happen to you is bull $#!+.

We are supposed to be able to teach and nuture infants and toddlers for some of the lowest pay nationally but heaven forbid that we tell a child no in any way so that they learn to grow into a responsible adult.

When I have a "problem" child I shadow the little sweetheart. He/she Never leaves my side. Today that is acceptable, tomorrow like time outs, it won't be.

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OP--part of your problem is calling it a time out. What I was taught to do (I know that I have not had to procatice it much as a only sub. in the 2 year

old room rarely and I currently only do scholage)was redirect and giving a new place adnd toys for the child. I was taught to talk to the child as to why

you are doing this just do not expect a result form your words.



I know that I do not have much experine with this age group so please take my advice with a grain of salt, so to speak.

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Honestly I haven't had too many issues with children under 2 misbehaving and very seldom do I use a time out even for older kids. Your situation was unique and I would not have been able to have a child act out so aggressively either. I wouldn't want to risk the liability of having another child in my care hurt and would have had to term him too.

I used to have a tiny little stool in our entry way for kids to sit on to put shoes on and designated that as a time out space for years. I had even showed it to licensing when they'd ask about my discipline measures and they never batted an eye. Recently I took it out when we updated our house with more contemporary furnishings...(it rarely got used & was more for decoration.)

Two years ago, I had one little girl who was about 18 mths old and put herself in "time out"! If I was in the other room and she did something she knew was wrong and I hadn't even actually seen it, she would plop down on the stool and one of the little ones who'd been hit or had a toy taken away would come and tell on her. It only happened a few times, but it clearly showed me that she knew better & also understood consequences! It was amazing to me, since I seldom resorted to having a child sit there for a minute or two and used redirection as my main course of action!

Under 2, kids are usually not very verbal and hitting/biting is a normal recourse for their frustration. They are still learning to share and taking someone else's toy is nothing out of the ordinary for them. Thankfully this phase is usually very short lived & I usually only have one little one this age at a time, so I will do as Daycare stated and separate them from the main group and have them sit with me and play, so the issue is resolved.

I feel like Daycare in that we are set up to fail...having a child that is causing harm to others is serious and it's unfortunate and horrible that his behavior is causing these repercussions for you.

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"Children who have repeat incidences of violence towards other children or staff, including but not limited to; hitting, shoving, biting, hair pulling etc, will be terminated."

I read your other post. Yes, the parent was being vindictive. However, I also agree that children with no verbal skills should not be in a time out, much less multiple time outs. They don't get it. I feel that unless a child is old enough to sit still and discuss with you what happened, why it happened, what they did wrong and what to do if they feel angry, they should not be in time out. Pac n play, high chair.... should be used only for sleeping and feeding. I think of my own son being in a daycare at 18 months old and being in several time outs.....I would burst into tears, march out and never ever return.
I am sorry you got a citation. That is ugly noise they threatened you with a lawsuit. Its unfortunate it happened. But I think CA laws are not unreasonable.

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I am glad we dont have those rules here..

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I think children are way smarter than most people give them credit for and our society is enabling a generation of entitled, I can do what I want & no one has the right to tell me otherwise. At some point children need to be given guidelines and rules to follow or they will grow up thinking the laws that govern our society are for someone else to follow!

Yes, some 18 months old are too young to understand, but as I described in my previous post...I personally witnessed a child this age who totally got it!

The part that I find disturbing is that I AM in CA and there is no black and white laws governing licensing. It is totally open to interpretation from one individual to another and EVEN within the same county analysts cannot agree on simple standards. I am all about being 100% in compliance with CA licensing laws in my home daycare, but they make it impossible to know from day to day what they require in different situations. So, I do not agree with your statement that "CA laws are not unreasonable".

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Mom2many, I get that the law there is vague and grayish. That is not fair to providers. Yep, kids are smart and your child in care probably did totally get it. But perhaps the OP's child did not get it. My thought was that the OP put this child in time out multiple times, so I am thinking he didn't get it. I think there is also a lot of misconception about what time out is. Can any of you ladies (and Dave) list what you define as "time out?" I will go first: time out is when a child is removed from the other chilrens play area when they are physically or emotionally out of control (tantrum) and their actions have or may have physically injured another child. When the tantrum has passed, they are then required to talk to the provider about what happened, why it happened and what they will do differently next time. But that is my opinion. Other opinions appreciated. I hope the OP will clarify exactly what she did with this child as a "time out"???

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I agree with mom2many. My just-turned-2 knows exactly what time out means. I don't call it time out, and I guess it really isn't since they can get up whenever they feel calm. It's what you guys call the crying corner-except mine is a crying quilt. I've been using it since they were under a year old. When things start escalating (whining, crying, fighting), I would take them by the hand and lead them to the quilt, always telling them they could get up when they were through crying. After a few times, all I had to say was "Go sit on the crying quilt until you feel better". By the time they were 18 months old, they were putting themselves on the quilt. The quilt is long gone, but my 25 month old still takes herself to that part of the room when she feels like she needs it. Don't tell me they don't understand.

My only 2 year old is a really good kid, so about the only time I have problems with her is when she can see I'm tied up changing the baby or giving him a bottle. If she wants into mischief, that's when she does it. I long ago started doing the 1-2-3 thing. I didn't expect a result, and it really just popped out, a remnant of my school teaching days. But, it worked. She stopped. Mom does 3-2-1 at home, and since she was about 18 mo old, she knows that if I hit 3, I will put the baby down half changed or half fed, and stop whatever she's doing. I rarely have to go past 2 though. (Today, she used it on me-I'll post in the funny thread). At her 2 year check up, the doctor told her mom that in a few months, she would be old enough to use 1-2-3 as a disciplinary measure. Mom just laughed and said we'd been doing it for months. He couldn't believe that she understood and responded to it so early.

We don't give kids nearly enough credit.

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Sunchimes, I totally agree, two year olds get it, they are old enough to communicate. And your quilt was totally appropriate, even for those under two. I am not advocating letting toddlers and those under 2 run wild and have no consequences, I am simply saying redirection until they can discuss their issue.
And if redirection didn't work for the OP, she needed to simply terminate, immediately.

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Timeouts would not work for one of my almost 2 year olds so I started taking her friends away to do another activity in another area. If she could not be nice to her friends her friends went to play somewhere else and I left her in the same place she was in for a while ALONE. I did this many, many times before it worked but eventually it did.

She had screaming fits, temper tantrums, threw toys (so in went ONLY the soft blocks and toys) and I just let he go at it. When she calmed down the other children returned and the toybox got put back in for all to play together again.

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Using 1-2-3 is really redirection. It says "I an giving you the opportunity to redirect YOURSELF before I have to help you find an alternate activity."

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I think cat herder has the best response yet.

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Thank you, Sugar It is what they are teaching in Developmental Discipline classes, now. It is something I think most of us do naturally, but simply did not have the words to describe. I rarely have behavioral issues at all, now.

The trick is to understand the difference between the words discipline (to teach) and punishment (obvious?).

Daycare Providers are never to punish. Only Parents are allowed to decide what punishment technique works best for their family, I should have no opinion or say in it.

Once I got that fact, the light bulb went off and the rest fell in place.


OP, Are you required to attend mandatory training to operate in your state? Is it readily available? If not I am not sure how they can legally hold you responsible for that information. Is it in your guidlines, handbooks or regs anywhere???

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There is also no such thing as "misbehavior" or "bad behavior"....only "mistaken" behavior.

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Great discussion and I value everyone's opinion.

In response to Magnolia's curiosity about what my time out looked like in this case was that I sat this child next to me on the floor directly beside an upholstered green bench I have against the main wall in the center of my playroom (where all the other children were still playing) for about 2 minutes (I have an apple shaped timer I set and use for the older kids) and sat next to him while we (hopefully) short-circuited his behavior jags. When I let him up I gave simple commands like "play nice" or "no climbing" or "be gentle". During the last few days of his care, this was multiple times as he would RUN from one thing to the next that he KNEW he was NOT supposed to do and DO IT INTENTIONALLY to see if he could get a rise out of me. No one will EVER convince me he did not know exactly what he was doing!

Totally toddler? Yes! But when it became excessive and the behaviors were no longer knocking toys on the floor, spitting into the air or taking a toy from a friend but instead became shoving kids his own size and bigger face first into the carpet and pulling over my Little Tikes Kitchen, I knew that he was a danger to both himself and others, I made the decision to term.

My mistake? I let him stay until the end of the day, used the method above and tons of redirection multiple times, and told his Mom he was termed at pick up time rather than phoning her at work (which she probably would not have answered!) and making her leave her job and come get him mid-day.

What have I learned from this experience? You cannot afford to be too 'nice' to your daycare families and a business is a business. I have to take responsibility for not enforcing my own rules to the severe degree that I am being held accountable for my (innocently misgiven) actions. I totally thought I was being thoughtful to this entire family - so the appreciation I get is that she is suing me. Gee thanks so much.

Sorry to say, never again.

And if I were to be honest - of the current 6 children I have in my daycare, I probably should term 2 of them because they have had behavior problems that require consistent redirection and correction - but guess what? I can't do that because I won't be able to pay my rent if I do. ... Reality.

I try to embrace each child I watch as unique. I treat them all the same and I treat them all differently. I want them to leave better than when they came. I want them to learn. I want them to grow. The State wants me to supervise from the corner with a smile on my face no matter what and the parents want me to turn their children into scholars and citizens who can rise to the top of the heap when they start school but not to ever correct their behavior. I can't possibly meet everyone's agenda. I am frustrated. The end.

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Here they termed it "unwanted". I guess we all get to choose what those things are...

I stick with redirecting violent, gross aka "unhygienic" (diaper digging, etc.) or destructive behaviors. Everything else I choose to ignore.

I read this morning that I can ignore passively or actively... I shall investigate this technique further when I stop procrastinating here... muahaha

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holy cow!!! I think our great grandparents would be laughing their heads off at all of this!!! In the old days....kid bites other child= kids got a swat= end of story=kid didn't bite anymore or as much = kids learn to be respectful to others and grew up just fine undamaged

Kids are very smart!

I have seen 20 month old kids tell other 21 month old kids " no you get trouble! no hit me"

kids are very manipulative: I had a 3 year old foster child tell me "if I be a bad girl then I can go back to mommy" ( which explained a lot of her behavior)
I know sad situation, she thought that's why she was taken away.

Then I had a 4 year tell me that if I don't give her cookie she will tell her mom that I am mean and that I won't make any more money...
These were all years ago but kids are a lot smarter than "doctors" give them credit for.

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I define "time out" in the exact way you described above. The only difference is that I don't expect to have any dialogue back and forth with a child this young. I use it only to give a child the chance to calm down if their emotions are out of control or if they have shown aggressive behavior towards another child. I use it as a teaching moment to help the child learn it's not okay to hurt others or be emotionally out of control. I separate them momentarily from playing with the other children and use simple phrases to emphasize that the behavior was not okay, just as the OP described.... "play nice" or "be gentle". It's actually just a time for them to "disengage" from the situation and I don't consider it punishment or use it as such.

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I couldn't agree with you more!

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hahha I laugh so much at this....becuase when I was growing up one time I bite my mom and she bit me back....

I guess you could say I grew up where it was an eye for an eye.....Im sure that has never happend here

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What? We can't bite our day care kids?

Just kidding! Just kidding!!!

I CANNOT afford to lose my sense of humor at this point! LOL!

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lol...its ok.... you deserve a laugh after all the crap you have been dragged through....

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Yes, so true!!!!!!

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I'm not my great grandparents, but I am shaking my head at the newer philosophies. I believed in a (one) quick swat on a bottom end, many consider it abuse and since licensing is of that belief, I don't do it. I really think we are raising a generation of self-centered, entitled brats

Discussion last week after 4 yo cut his shirt with the scissors.

Him - I cut my shirt.
Me - Why?
Him - It was an accident.
Me - Look at me. Why did you cut your shirt?
Him - It was an accident.
Me - No, it was not an accident. You intentionally cut your shirt. We will have to discuss this with Mommy.
Him - Well, if I tell Mommy it was an accident, she won't get mad at me.
Me - That would be lying and we don't tell lies. I want you to tell Mommy the truth.

That night:
Me - He cut his shirt during scissor time today.
Mom - Why did you cut your shirt?
Him - It was an accident.
Me - No, we tell the truth.
Him - Well, Mommy doesn't get mad when I say it was an accident.

End of discussion as he ran off to play. Mommy laughed and shook her head at her little angel. No repercussion, no discipline.

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Licensing didn't think my idea of a velcro wall was very funny, either.

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I'll be honest. I think that sometimes we do not give kids enough credit. My example is a personal one used with my daughter from the time she was 18 months old. When she did something she was not supposed to (and KNEW she wasn't) she would run from whatever it was. She knew good and well that she was wrong. So I would redirect her. If she continued, then I would tell her to have a seat wherever she was without toys. I would simply say "you did X so you have to sit." She sat for maybe a minute and she was very quiet the whole time. Even the times she was not quiet it never lasted longer than 10-15 seconds. Then I would thank her for being quiet and invite her back to toys reminding her not to do X. She got it. She is now 2 so this wasn't that long ago!

I think that people sometimes abuse "time outs" and time outs can be very different for different people. If a child is being destructive, "time away" by theirselves is great and safe.

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Has society lost their minds?

This was a time-out (ok - several), not a beating or duct-taping or any type of cruel or horrific act.

I feel sorry for the educators that will have these families in their day-to-day life later. The only lesson learned from this by anyone is to use sneakier verbage to cover your butt. Providers will avoid the "Time-Out" term in order to protect themselves from the "Violated a Child's Rights" term. The situation won't be any different, just cloaked in creative ways to make it sound different than the reality.

Licensing is very good at this. What looks on paper like a dirty and unsafe home when you read a providers write-ups is often a kleenex that missed the garbage or a bottle of sunscreen sitting next to the provider on the deck table. Nevermind that these two things mean the provider is actively cleaning noses or teaching littles to do for themselves and that sunblock is reapplied often.

Nope this provider now looks like they dont take care of the children or environment properly.

Violating A Child's Rights....you've gotta be kidding me.

Just tell me no more time-outs under two and let me move on. But they couldn't do that could they? Why? Because they aren't sure if that IS actually what the guidelines mean themselves.

Geesh. I am so sorry you are going through this.

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I could not have said it better myself!

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I agree, but especially with the bolded part. Essentially this is what *is* happening. Having a separate place for a child away from others where he can calm down IS what a time out used to be...
A rose by any other name...

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Today's update:

Just to add insult to injury, the Licensing Supervisor told someone in R&R to contact the County Office of Education and have them mail me a huge manilla envelope stuffed full of information xeroxed off of eHow.com explaining discipline techniques that are appropriate with preschool aged children, and a handful of glossy brochures explaining how to create a "Caring Place for your Infant and Toddler" so that I could be enlightened. (rolls eyes) And do you think that Resource and Referral will ever suggest MY daycare to anyone again? Uhhhhh ...

The real clincher though was that she had someone go through and hand highlight certain phrases for me (since I am apparently so uneducated as not to be able to gather the main points from this material) such as "Connect through Conversation" and "Discipline in a form of good teaching based not on punishment, but on guidance." ... Wait, I thought that the Supervisor was just the one who berated me in her response letter stating that she was concerned that I don't realize that children of this age aren't teachable because they aren't able to comprehend their own behavior and can't understand me expressing verbal expectations for their actions? WHAT????

And the frosting on the cake for me was that they made sure to include an additional brochure on Stress in Adult Caregivers and how it affects their children ... I guess this was in response to her suggestion that I need to learn how to 'remain calm and professional when dealing with infants' - but of course, it makes absolutely NO difference that NO ONE involved in this case has ever observed me act otherwise and quite frankly, most have never seen me interact with an infant AT ALL. You wanna see stress in an Adult Caregiver ... keep this up.

Just shoot me now.

In closing, I will share with you that one of the discipline techniques included in their bag of tricks? Yep ... you guessed it ... TIME OUT. (Although it did state that it was most effective with 24 mos - 12 year olds).

I'm walking numb today. I feel judged by people who don't even know me. Don't know my daycare kids. Don't know this set of parents.

I'm just sick to my stomach. I wonder if they are done insulting me yet?

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This is beyond horrible...actually words cannot even express what I'm feeling...SOOOO I cannot even imagine what you are feeling!

Don't let this misguided and ignorant individual get you down! You know who you are and the parents with children in your care do too! Like you stated, "NO ONE involved in this case has ever observed me act otherwise and quite frankly, most have never seen me interact with an infant AT ALL. She is basing her opinion on nothing but a disgruntled parent who appears to be a bit out of touch with reality and not the real facts.

Did she even interview any of your other parents?????? Speaking from my own previous experience, I seriously doubt it! There are individuals on serious power trips that aren't interested in truly finding out what the truth is and you need to take a deep breath and let it go. I know it's frustrating, but think about ludicrous it all is! She is even contradicting her own words and has no clue what she is even saying.

Hugs to you!!!!

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All I can say is WOW. This lady has really gone over the top.

D O C U M E N T, D O C U M E N T, AND D O C U M E N T every single thing that comes from these people.

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I use "redirecting" for severe misbehavior...

I redirect their fannies to the time out spot to think about what they did and then they apologize and get on with their day

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