I'll try to keep it short. Child is known to fib- I didn't do that, I had it first, etc. even when I know otherwise. Child is also a HUGE tattler. For everything, all day.

He is now accusing my SA dck of asking him to pull down his pants and see his private. This allegedly happened on Friday. Child said nothing to me, nothing to mom all weekend. Child was angry with SA child Monday because SA child refused to play with him. Monday evening child goes home and tells this story to Mom.

This all happened with 3 other dck's present, my 7yo in and out and my 10yo there the entire time, and my 16yo dd at the dining room table doing homework. They were in the dining room, I was in/out in the playroom (big L shape).

Mom says NOTHING to me. Drops off Tuesday without a word. Tells child to speak to me about it Tuesday?! Child does not say a word. SA child is out in the afternoon Tue for an appt, they NEVER had contact Tues.

Tuesday evening Mom drops this ball on me at pickup and stays for 30 minutes discussing it. She essentially interrogates child. I call my own (reliable, trustworthy) 10yo son out to ask him. I ask if anything unusual happened when they were playing together Friday. My son says no. He was with them the entire time. Child's story starts to change. Mom begins to realize child is lying. I tell her I will handle it seriously regardless. I ask ALL of the kids today if anything happened. They say no.

Child comes in this morning- no issue. Child is playing Legos at the Lego table 2 feet from me and says "Iron Man pulled my pants down and licked me!" EVERYONE heard it.

dck's all tattle about potty words (same dcks that were there Friday playing)

I lecture dck about using potty language.

Fast forward to story time. I am cleaning up the table from lunch and overhear dck say to dcg "Pull your pants down so I can see your underwear." and dcg say "NO GROSS! Miss ___________!"

Child is STILL adamant dck did this-- it really isn't possible! and from what I am hearing from his mouth- it's HIM doing it.

I am so done. IMHO- this is above and beyond normalkid lies! I spoke to parents about it, asked all the kids, and I feel like a complete idiot.

WWYD here?! My husband is saying term IMMEDIATELY- his reasoning is what if he had accused ME or my older kids. (dh is never alone/around the kids enough but him as well)

*eta* I know the SA child- has been here 3+ years, is honest and trustworthy and has never done anything like this before.

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I'd almost lean towards terminating care too because of the liability but you said mom recognized that he was lying? Do you feel SHE trusts you? What do you think her over all stance on this is?

I would not allow the child access to ANYONE outside YOUR direct line of vision. He would be my shadow 100% of the time he is in care simply because HE cannot be trusted to be alone with anyone and because YOU can't trust that he is telling the truth which put YOU at risk depending on what he chooses to say next and/or depending on how his parents are handling this.

I'd write up a behavior plan and have mom and dad on board with it not only for YOUR protection but for DCB's protection as well.

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IMHO, he is a huge liability to you and your business, and I would be terming immediately. If it were my child he was asking to see, I would be upset that the provider was allowing for him to remain on property.

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I have kept ALL communication with Mom written since the first conversation. She agrees that he is lying, so I have that on record.

I am debating on calling my registrar. What if I term and Mom retaliates?

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Is something happening somewhere else and he is attributing it to your daycare? For example someone is pulling his pants down etc and he is trying to deal with it by telling his mom and blaming a kid in your care because he feels safer to do so? It can be hard for a child to deal with sexual abuse. Not saying this is what is happening but for some reason red flags are going off for me.

I would 100% talk to mom about the possibility of this happening somewhere else and tell her I am quite concerned why this is suddenly starting and where it is coming from etc. Get ahead of it a bit and then see what happens before terming. IF this is a cry for help it would suck to ignore it.

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Talk with your registrar FIRST before terming if you decide to do that.

If you do term, I would be flat out honest with mom and tell her exactly why it's such a huge liability and that if other parents are told those lies by their kid and then that parent comes to you and you have to now address that parent's concerns etc. etc. etc...

It's ALOT to manage just because one child (who I think is plenty old enough to understand lie vs make believe) tells outlandish tales.

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Report to registrar, have mom sign notes you've taken then term. Im the same as your dh. Screw that! I'd have so much anxiety!!

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Its a big red flag that he would even say that let alone accuse someone else. He has either seen/heard/or experienced something like that. I might report suspected abuse to Child Services.

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Personally I would term, too much of a liability. I definitely wonder where he is hearing these things and as a parent if my child overheard these things and started repeating them I would find a new provider because I wouldn't want my kids around that ya know? Some things I'm willing to shadow for, this would be crossing my line, to me the risk isn't worth it and I would be on pins and needles all day Shadowing a child that may hit or bite is one thing, you can keep them from harming kids that way. In this case, shadowing won't keep him from speaking (and other kids hearing) and you never know what he might say next.

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The layout of my house and how I run the childcare here make it so that IF I continued care and he was shadowed, he would be limited to playing with my young 3's and under, as the children his age are in my 3 season room and my littles are in the main play space for the afternoon/no school days.

My daycare space is an L shape, the short/bottom of the L is my main play room, and the top of the long side is the end of my dining room/3 season room where my big kid area is. It has french doors that I leave open all the time

He- and everyone else, including kids and parents, would be well aware that he was 'punished' as my big kids are only in there when they are in trouble, or coming in/out the front of the house.

Mom is mortified. She is apologetic and doesn't know WHAT to say or do.

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It would make me very uncomfortable keeping him. It's so easy for others to pick up those words and bring them home, and pretty soon your clients are dropping like flies.
I don't know how old your dck is and quite possibly nothing has ever happened to him, could be something as simple as hearing a program or whatever and their hearing can kick in so wonderfully when we don't want it to. If he comes in contact with older kids anywhere, he easily could have heard it there. But keeping him in your dc is a giant risk if he's continuing that type of talk.

I have a dcb, think he was 6 at the time so he only came during the summer. But during that summer I also had 4 other dcks older than he was. Three of them were dcgs and were hanging out together, talking and doing 'girl' stuff. He wanted into that group so bad and when they wouldn't let him in, he came out and told me one of them had touched him inappropriately. I knew in my heart this wasn't true but went to question them, they were shocked at the accusation. There was also a dcb here, I think he was maybe 11 then and he said 6 yo dcb had come out and bragged about what he had told me and that he got the girls in trouble. Man was I ever pi$$ed and he knew it. I sent a note home, dcm and I talked to him about how serious such allegations were. But it was a one-time thing. I told dcm if he ever did it again, he was gone.

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That bolded part up there.... that's NOT normal.

There is no way I would keep a child in care who speaks about private parts this way with other children I'm responsible for.

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I'm with the "something's going on somewhere" group. I know you dont want to seperate him but maybe a little shame will do him good.
When I can't trust you, I can't trust you.
No matter the age, no
Matter the space. If I can't trust you to do or not do something, you don't get the chance to do it.

There is no grey line in my opinion.
He would stay w the babies for a few days and id give him say, 10 minutes w the big kids. Then back to the babies if all went well and if increase time daily until I could trust him again. I wouldn't sugarcoat it. I wouldn't be sneaky about it.
Id point blank tell him::
The reason you must be in the room with me is because you were dishonest and mean. In a few days, if you behave, I'll let you play with your friends again for a little while. If you behave, we can try it for a longer time the next day, but if you tell stories again you are stuck with the babies until summer.
I'd let mom know it is either constant supervision or termination.
As for
Other people finding out,
"Why is Sam in the baby playroom?"
"He just is."
"But, why?"
"Because he is. He's not sick. He just is in here right now."

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Wow I don't know. What IF he is being abused somewhere and now we are shaming and disciplining him? This is not at all how this should be handled. Lying is one thing but to say "someone pulled down my pants and licked me" is a whole other animal. This might be a cry for help.

I understand wanting to protect yourself, I really do, but what if this child needs help? I would ask some non leading questions at the very least.

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His continued comments would worry me that there is abuse or he is witnessing abuse. Comments like that are not typical.

Honestly, I would be considering calling the abuse hotline and letting them investigate.

Another thing that bothers me is that He blamed YOUR older child and mom just told him to talk to you about it. If my child ever said anything like that, I would instantly go and talk to the provider to clear things up. Mom should've followed up instead of letting it go. Which makes me think that A) mom knew it was a lie and rather than discipline her child about lying, she sent him to you to discipline or B) something is going on and mom hoped the child wouldn't bring it up again.

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It is also possible he told her it was someone else and she turned it into him saying it was your child? He might have been trying to tell her that someone was doing this and depending on her reaction he probably just blurted out the first person that came to mind type of thing.

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Although uncomfortable and a bit odd, its only not normal to the logical mind. Its normal at the preschool age just like biting for toddlers. Not acceptable but not not normal.

I have a 3.7 yr old DCB thatwatches and plays some pretty awful tv/video games with his dad (who doesn't do much "adulting") and some of the statments and comments he makes are very similar.

Most of what he says is for shock value and/or to get a rise out of others but still not okay language and not at all true stories.... last week his other dad let him get a tattoo on his butt - he doesnt have another dad nor does he have a tattoo on his butt....not even a temporary one.

I think the need to out-do, out-shine and/or be more shocking or more outrageous than others has become a cultural normfor many.

Normally, if something is a liability I would term but Id have to reconsider or really think about it if I knew the family well and if I knew the parents were honestly trying to work with me...kwim?

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I agree with everyone else. I wouldn't be able to deal with the liability. I would have mom sign something saying we discussed it and then write up a term for later.

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I personally disagree and although you may think it is normal I personally have never heard a preschooler say anything even remotely close to what the OP is saying this child has said in all of my 10+ years of working with kids. I mean a tattoo on a butt is vastly different than saying someone pulled down their pants and licked them. Unless the kid is being exposed to **** at home...which is also child abuse.

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I don't mean "normal" as in okay or acceptable.
I mean normal as in it's normal for kids to say things that are odd, shocking and/or really out there in left field.

I have worked with kids for a little over 25 years and although I haven't heard a lot of kids say that type of thing I have had a child say someone licked a private area or touched or something similar. It's not always meant in the same context as our adult minds think it is or interpreted the way the child meant it but I have heard similar things.

Im not saying the OP should disregard the thought that he may very well be being abused in some way or exposed to something inappropriate but I still say that ALL signs do not point to just that conclusion.

I learned a long time ago that not only are there 3 sides to every story (mine, yours and the truth) but when dealing with kids there are often times more than one definition of every word/fact in every story.

That was my point.

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Ok, I get this explanation on your thought process a little better.
IMHO, any part of describing an act of oral sex is not "normal" for a toddler, preschooler, or early elementary age child.
Specifically in the OP situation: associating licking and naked skin in the genital region would not be considered developmentally appropriate conversation and should be examined further. Hopefully by someone other than the business owner (again, in my own opinion).
The content of what this child is describing is just too complex to be considered grandstanding for shock value.

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I would approach dcm and express concerns over the context of his statements. That you are worried that he's seen/heard something somewhere.

Was he accusing your son or another dck?

My child = gone immediately

Another dck = I would approach as laundrymom suggested, giving a time frame for it to stop and refusal to continue care if it continues

Although I'd be really tempted to get the signed note of acknowledgement and term.

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This sounds vaguely familiar. I can't get into detail but it has happened at one of the centers I worked a few years ago .

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I've seen this quite a few times in centers. Each time it happens, I write a behavioral incident report about it for the child. Parent signs it at pickup. IF it ends up being an abuse investigation, the investigators may end up using those reports to try to figure things out. Also, (at least here) it can show licensing that you were aware of the situation and handled it if any parents send in complaints.

Then the child becomes my shadow. I don't shadow them; they shadow me. I do my job as I normally would and they have to stay close to me. They can play, but only near me. I work in a center and if I get bumped to another classroom, I will even take them with me if there's room in the other room.

If there are continued incidents after they get a written behavioral plan (which usually happens after the second incident), then they get sent home.

I'm with BC. That doesn't make me automatically assume abuse. I've seen and heard worse from preschool children before. Does DCB have any other behavior issues or anything else that could point toward abuse?

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another dck, my 10 year old son was present at the time of the incident.

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I have decided to term effective immediately.

The child wont back down. The mother has confirmed via text and email that she knows he is lying. He is acting quite smug as he sits smiling at me telling me (without prompting) that his mother thinks I am lying and (dck's he is accusing) will be in so much trouble. Not to mention the steps I had to take to ensure the safety of the other children in my program are well beyond what I am willing to do long term. I will NEVER again trust this child.

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Wise decision. Way too risky to keep him.

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I think you did the only thing you could do.

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Daycarediva, I would terminate as well. I had a child accuse me of locking them in the bathroom and we have no lock on the bathroom Anyway, she came the next day but when I called licensing she told me to document the child came back but then terminate immediately which I did. She said since the parent brought the child back that would benefit me. The parent never turned me in but it does still scare me sometimes to think about it! Good luck!

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In light of all the details in this situation, I think you are handling this very professionally.

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Ok this sounds like he is lying! Yikes. Well glad you trusted your gut and did the right thing

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My heart goes out to you. IMHO, terming is the only thing you can do. DOCUMENT, DOCUMENT, and DOCUMENT some more. Print out every single bit of written contact you have had with mom.

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Ugh! Has licensing been called?

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Yes licensing is aware. I emailed her an update this morning on my decision to term.

Here is my update so far:

Now that Mom and I know dcb is lying, Mom is dragging her heels on a course of action. She said she does not have time to speak to dcd about this until the weekend!

Dcb admitted to me that he lied- he initially wanted to get other SA dcb in trouble because he is jealous, essentially. This dcb was held back from K. Sa DCB is the same age and was not. He has more priviledges (eg. outside time with the big kids, movies after school on occasion, staying up for rest time).

On Friday when dcb made the accusation, he said he was really angry at SA dcb because he got to bring his DVD player. The big kids (my own SA, SA DCB) even included the little kids who asked- dcg/3 and this dcb. They were all working together to make a tent but THIS dcb kept sabotaging it so I said he could no longer play with them. He was angry, and envious, and he wanted to get SA dcb in trouble.

He does not like dcg/3 at ALL and said if he told she said that she would get in trouble, too.

I asked where he heard these things- his 7yo cousin says them. What happens when cousin says them? He is in big trouble and has to sit in the living room alone and can't pick the movies or play with any toys (they BOTH go to their grandparents house for most of the weekend, every weekend).

I sent that info to his mother-no response. Term papers printed for her to sign (also acknowledging refund). Refund check written (ouch, they pay quarterly, FT x 7 weeks, 1 day/tomorrow)

D O N E.

I have never wanted to quit so badly in my LIFE.

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That doesn't affect your decision to term immediately, right?

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I hope everything goes well during and after termination. I would have termed intermediately as well, this is a huge risk I would not be willing to take.

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Are you letting him stay the whole day? When does he go home?

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She doesn't have time to talk to her own child? It is Thursday. She doesn't have a few minutes in the next 48 hours to talk to her child? Sad.

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I termed. Dcd showed up AFTER dcm said he was working doubles and she wouldnt have time to talk to him until the weekend.

I do NOT see DCD often. It was an obvious avoidance tactic. I had DCD sign the termination statement that dcb made false allegations and that he was refunded the unused portion of their daycare fees. He was LIVID. He is a HUGE 300lb/6ft6" guy. Dh was in my line of sight right around the corner, but dcd could not see him.

Dcb looked right at dcd and said "GUESS WHAT DADDY? I LIED!" and STARTED LAUGHING! Dcd said "That's okay buddy." and kept repeating "That's ok. I know. That's ok." all the way out the door.

WHAT THE ^%^(^(*(&^^$^%#^%$%&)!

It's done.

The child was COMPLETELY separated today. He played with NO ONE, he interacted with NO ONE, he ate and slept in different rooms (he was in my dining room, the rest of the kids were in the playroom) so he was still supervised.

It was too cold to go outside, so that solved that problem. Not at all going to work long term.

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WOW at dad's reaction! Sounds like even with giving a refund, you need to be rid of this family.

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Im sorry it turned out this way Diva.

Im glad they're gone now though but I suppose you may still hear from mom? Either way, I am glad they are gone.

Like I said before you really handled this professionally and very well.

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I agree with BC.

Yeah, it's ok to lie about something that could have cost someone their livelihood. Yeah, it's ok to lie about something that could have resulted in an unwarranted investigation. Yeah, it's ok to lie buddy, let's go get ice cream as a nice treat.

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So sorry! It is for the best and I am glad you can breathe easier now that he is done!

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AYFKM??? Does dcd not have any clue???

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My daycare facebook page is set as a private person- and daycare parents add me as a friend.

Last night, dcb went out to dinner and then to grandma's. The parents had plans to see a show in the city. They 1. rewarded him and 2. had time together, and therefor lied to ME about dcd's work schedule.

It's no wonder dcb thinks it's acceptable to lie. SO DONE.

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Children learn more from seeing actions than any word spoken! This child seems to have been taught well.....how to lie!

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She filed a complaint. I just got a phone call from my registrar to tell me. The complaint is serious and about me. She said my reputation in the child and family resources community would be a huge help moving forward. I am fighting tears, I really just want to quit, hand everyone notice and never open my doors again.

I already had my paperwork ducks in a row. Just did a quick check of the house and picked up a little. Nothing left to do but wait for the knock.

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Print out every single bit of communication that you have between you and mom. Write down conversations between you and child. Have everything in writing to hand to your registrar. Be sure to keep a copy for yourself.

I am so sorry that you are going through this. I understand how you feel. I never got that call, but I did shut down my business for 3 years.

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Oh no!!

This is ridiculous.

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I'm so sorry. This is not fair. I wouldn't fight the tears. Have a good cry. Then breath and know that the truth is on your side.

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Wow. Dcm didn't waste any time calling licensing after you termed them. Since she had acknowledged the fact that her kid was lying, it's purely vindictive on her end. I'm always amazed at how malicious people can be. I'm so sorry you're going through this.

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I'm so sorry.

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Ugh . At least your registrar knew about the situation ahead of time , hopefully that will help you out . Also good that you have all the messages from the dcm.

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You've had good advice and handled it well and professionally.

So sorry you are having to deal with this on top of everything else.

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I am SOOO sorry and SOOO pissed at DCM!! WTH??? Deep breaths, you will be ok! I'm just sitting here shaking my head saying why why why are people so cruel??

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She is the C word. Wow, gutsy B.

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She filed a complaint? Even after admitting her son was lying and dcd saying what he said to dcb?? So all she wants to do is cause you misery, worry and grief? What a winner.
You have all that written down though right? The conversations/texts where you exchanged words about dcb being a liar?
Try not to drive yourself insane thinking about it all. The state, I'm sure, has to follow up on these kinds of things, no matter how crazy they are. All it takes is one rotten person to make any of our lives a living he!!. I'm sorry there's one in your life.

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What an a$$!!
Sending prayers and good thoughts your way.

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I am so mad!!!!!!!! Worst part of this job....accusations. So unfair.

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I am so sorry this happened. You handled it well. At least you called ahead of time. When they come, I'm sure and I pray things go smoothly. Please keep us updated.

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Any updates?

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