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Parents and Guardians Forum>How Much Violence Is Normal?
LtTawnyMadison 07:41 AM 01-30-2013
Hi - I am new to the forum. I am writing because I am concerned about the amount which my daughter is being physically hurt at her daycare. She has been at this daycare since she was 6 months old. She's now 4 1/2. In this class, she gets hurt by another child 1-2x per week. (One week it was 3x.) The type of hurts include kicking, pinching, throwing things in the face and the like.
She is not being ganged up on or singled out and is well liked by kids and adults in general, and whenever I observe her in the class the kids play very well with her and seem to like her a lot and vice versa. She is best friends with our neighbor's kids who are near her age, and gets along very well with all other kids I've ever seen her interact with; she makes friends everywhere we go and is considered a 'social butterfly.'
I think the issue is that this daycare is located in a rough area of downtown in a city, and so there are a disproportionate number of kids from dysfunctional families who go there. We do not live near this area but about 20 minutes away in an 'upscale' neighborhoood. When she was younger I welcomed this because there are kids from many diverse backgrounds and I wanted her exposed to that, and still do. (We are WASPs LOL) However, she is now expressing more and more often that she does not want to go to school, and pleading to stay home... whereas prior to about 6 months ago when the hurting started, she loved being at school.
When I ask her why she doesn't want to go, she says, "Because the kids don't like me. Boy X doesn't like me." Boy X is the main problem and he is a known 'problem child' in her class but apparently has been improving so they haven't expelled him. He is the one who has been responsible for most of the hurts she has received and many parents have complained because he has been aggressive with all the kids. The daycare has been great about reporting every incident to us. But my daughter has told me about other incidents recently from other kids too, and I always ask her if she told the teacher about it and she says yes.
One staff member said that 4 1/2 is a common age for kids to start doing more roughhousing, but I am concerned because my daughter is not happy. The final red flag for me was when I picked her up one day and asked her how her day was and she said, "It was good. Nobody hurt me today." The school's co-director heard her say that and we were both kind of dumbstruck.
I talked to my husband about how maybe we need to find another daycare for her, and he said that first I should do some research online to find out what is normal and what isn't. If it is unusual for a child to get hurt as often as she is, we will definitely find another daycare for her. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
She is not being ganged up on or singled out and is well liked by kids and adults in general, and whenever I observe her in the class the kids play very well with her and seem to like her a lot and vice versa. She is best friends with our neighbor's kids who are near her age, and gets along very well with all other kids I've ever seen her interact with; she makes friends everywhere we go and is considered a 'social butterfly.'
I think the issue is that this daycare is located in a rough area of downtown in a city, and so there are a disproportionate number of kids from dysfunctional families who go there. We do not live near this area but about 20 minutes away in an 'upscale' neighborhoood. When she was younger I welcomed this because there are kids from many diverse backgrounds and I wanted her exposed to that, and still do. (We are WASPs LOL) However, she is now expressing more and more often that she does not want to go to school, and pleading to stay home... whereas prior to about 6 months ago when the hurting started, she loved being at school.
When I ask her why she doesn't want to go, she says, "Because the kids don't like me. Boy X doesn't like me." Boy X is the main problem and he is a known 'problem child' in her class but apparently has been improving so they haven't expelled him. He is the one who has been responsible for most of the hurts she has received and many parents have complained because he has been aggressive with all the kids. The daycare has been great about reporting every incident to us. But my daughter has told me about other incidents recently from other kids too, and I always ask her if she told the teacher about it and she says yes.
One staff member said that 4 1/2 is a common age for kids to start doing more roughhousing, but I am concerned because my daughter is not happy. The final red flag for me was when I picked her up one day and asked her how her day was and she said, "It was good. Nobody hurt me today." The school's co-director heard her say that and we were both kind of dumbstruck.
I talked to my husband about how maybe we need to find another daycare for her, and he said that first I should do some research online to find out what is normal and what isn't. If it is unusual for a child to get hurt as often as she is, we will definitely find another daycare for her. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
LtTawnyMadison 07:49 AM 01-30-2013
I wanted to edit my post to take out the boy's name and also to say I found the thread that lists the childcare acronyms but I can't edit it... just FYI 
Blackcat31 08:00 AM 01-30-2013
Welcome to the forum!
You should now be able to edit your post.
As far as advice goes, I honestly feel your child is being hurt way too much. I would have been understanding the FIRST time but not with repeated incidences.
This is obviously really affecting your child as well since she is now afraid to go to care.
As a provider, I couldn't imagine continuing to provide care for a child who hurts other children so much on a regular basis with no improvement or change.
At 4.5 this much aggression towards anyone is cause for concern.
As a parent I would move my child to another care provider IMMEDIATELY. I would also make sure the center director knows you are leaving for that reason.
Normal or not, when your own child is being hurt, it just isn't ok.
Having a day where no one hurts you shouldn't be the basis for a good day.
Good luck in whatever decision you make.
You should now be able to edit your post.
As far as advice goes, I honestly feel your child is being hurt way too much. I would have been understanding the FIRST time but not with repeated incidences.
This is obviously really affecting your child as well since she is now afraid to go to care.
As a provider, I couldn't imagine continuing to provide care for a child who hurts other children so much on a regular basis with no improvement or change.
At 4.5 this much aggression towards anyone is cause for concern.
As a parent I would move my child to another care provider IMMEDIATELY. I would also make sure the center director knows you are leaving for that reason.
Normal or not, when your own child is being hurt, it just isn't ok.
Having a day where no one hurts you shouldn't be the basis for a good day.
Good luck in whatever decision you make.
LtTawnyMadison 08:08 AM 01-30-2013
Thanks. Ugh. Now I feel awful that it's taken us this long!!
Willow 08:24 AM 01-30-2013
Yeah, the excuse about it being normal for kids to start rough-housing around that age is bologna. If anything they should be hitting a point where they have MORE control over their emotions and bodies and less of that should be occurring across the board in the group, if at all!
I'd let your child know you won't let this happen anymore. You're sorry it did all this time but if it happens again you'll be finding her a new place to go. Put the daycare on alert - last chance. If they can't keep her safe there you're going to need to move her as they obviously have too many kids if supervising boy x is too much of a task for them. Make it clear you will not allow your daughter to continue to be hurt by their lack of supervision/structure/intervention.
I'd let your child know you won't let this happen anymore. You're sorry it did all this time but if it happens again you'll be finding her a new place to go. Put the daycare on alert - last chance. If they can't keep her safe there you're going to need to move her as they obviously have too many kids if supervising boy x is too much of a task for them. Make it clear you will not allow your daughter to continue to be hurt by their lack of supervision/structure/intervention.
Heidi 09:24 AM 01-30-2013
As someone who is currently a provider and also has been a dc client in the past, I would say it's time to move on.
Like Willow said, at this age, the physical stuff should be lessening as the vocabularies are increasing.
Don't feel guilty about waiting so long, continuity is important, as well. It's just time to go, IMO.
I would also talk to your daughter about why (but after the fact). Tell her that it's your job to keep her safe, and that you just don't feel like she's really safe at this school, or something along those lines.
I hope you find a great program for your daughter!
BTW, since this board is full of provides, maybe someone here has an opening for a sweet 4 year old....
Like Willow said, at this age, the physical stuff should be lessening as the vocabularies are increasing.
Don't feel guilty about waiting so long, continuity is important, as well. It's just time to go, IMO.
I would also talk to your daughter about why (but after the fact). Tell her that it's your job to keep her safe, and that you just don't feel like she's really safe at this school, or something along those lines.
I hope you find a great program for your daughter!
BTW, since this board is full of provides, maybe someone here has an opening for a sweet 4 year old....
LtTawnyMadison 09:31 AM 01-30-2013
I got laid off 1 1/2 years ago and have been doing off and on contract work ever since, and her current daycare has been very flexible in allowing her to just come 1 day a week when I'm not working, and then switch back to 5 days when I am. I don't know if I can set up that arrangement with another daycare but I will talk to them about it. I've already found a highly-rated one that has an opening, and I'm waiting to hear back from another one.
daycarediva 09:53 AM 01-30-2013
I agree with my fellow providers. At 4 1/2 they have expanding verbal skills and better self control. If anything, the aggression should be decreasing.
I am not a center (small home child care) and I do NOT keep aggressive kids. It is never fair to be afraid, or to be hurt by someone. My first priority is to keep my little people safe & happy. With 6 kids under 5, I MAYBE intervene to stop aggression 1x/wk.
Since it is one child, would it be possible to talk with the director before removing your child? Tell her that it has been ongoing and you feel as if not much has been done to resolve the issue with Boy X, and that you feel at this time, it is either you remove your child, or they remove this boy. I am SURE it would only take a parent or two saying this to make them act fast to keep their current clients.
Another factor that you may want to address-how is this child REPEATEDLY able to hurt your child? If I were the room teacher and didn't have the ability to terminate this boy, I would separate him, shadow him, etc and do my very best to ensure he wasn't able to hurt anyone.
I am not a center (small home child care) and I do NOT keep aggressive kids. It is never fair to be afraid, or to be hurt by someone. My first priority is to keep my little people safe & happy. With 6 kids under 5, I MAYBE intervene to stop aggression 1x/wk.
Since it is one child, would it be possible to talk with the director before removing your child? Tell her that it has been ongoing and you feel as if not much has been done to resolve the issue with Boy X, and that you feel at this time, it is either you remove your child, or they remove this boy. I am SURE it would only take a parent or two saying this to make them act fast to keep their current clients.
Another factor that you may want to address-how is this child REPEATEDLY able to hurt your child? If I were the room teacher and didn't have the ability to terminate this boy, I would separate him, shadow him, etc and do my very best to ensure he wasn't able to hurt anyone.
cheerfuldom 10:52 AM 01-30-2013
time to move on OP.
roughhousing is tickling, running around, wrestling a bit.....not biting, hitting, throwing, attacking, hurting. if they feel that this boy is "rough housing" then clearly they have a environment not in line with your values and needs. your daughter will be going to kinder soon, she needs to love school, look forward to it....not have anxiety about going!
roughhousing is tickling, running around, wrestling a bit.....not biting, hitting, throwing, attacking, hurting. if they feel that this boy is "rough housing" then clearly they have a environment not in line with your values and needs. your daughter will be going to kinder soon, she needs to love school, look forward to it....not have anxiety about going!
LtTawnyMadison 08:05 AM 02-07-2013
Thanks everyone for your input. She starts in a new daycare on Monday. She took the news quite matter-of-factly.
It was hard to tell the staff, and we do feel sad, because we've been with them so long and are friends with them! But my husband and I had an in-person meeting with them and told them why in as much detail as possible, and the director thanked us for being honest and indicated that it would be a learning experience for what they need to change in order to make sure the kids are all safe. (In the course of the conversation, she told me they had let go of 5 problem children in 2012.)
I feel good about it, especially after seeing her new school. I trust she will be happy there!
It was hard to tell the staff, and we do feel sad, because we've been with them so long and are friends with them! But my husband and I had an in-person meeting with them and told them why in as much detail as possible, and the director thanked us for being honest and indicated that it would be a learning experience for what they need to change in order to make sure the kids are all safe. (In the course of the conversation, she told me they had let go of 5 problem children in 2012.)
I feel good about it, especially after seeing her new school. I trust she will be happy there!
Blackcat31 08:13 AM 02-07-2013
Originally Posted by LtTawnyMadison:
Thanks everyone for your input. She starts in a new daycare on Monday. She took the news quite matter-of-factly.
It was hard to tell the staff, and we do feel sad, because we've been with them so long and are friends with them! But my husband and I had an in-person meeting with them and told them why in as much detail as possible, and the director thanked us for being honest and indicated that it would be a learning experience for what they need to change in order to make sure the kids are all safe. (In the course of the conversation, she told me they had let go of 5 problem children in 2012.)
I feel good about it, especially after seeing her new school. I trust she will be happy there!
I am so happy to hear such a positive update! I am betting your daughter will be happy with her new center! Thanks everyone for your input. She starts in a new daycare on Monday. She took the news quite matter-of-factly.
It was hard to tell the staff, and we do feel sad, because we've been with them so long and are friends with them! But my husband and I had an in-person meeting with them and told them why in as much detail as possible, and the director thanked us for being honest and indicated that it would be a learning experience for what they need to change in order to make sure the kids are all safe. (In the course of the conversation, she told me they had let go of 5 problem children in 2012.)
I feel good about it, especially after seeing her new school. I trust she will be happy there!
I am also glad you took the time to be honest with your previous director as feedback is so important in this field and I am also happy that she is open enough to view your feedback as a learning experience for the future.
melilley 09:08 AM 02-07-2013
Originally Posted by cheerfuldom:
time to move on OP.
roughhousing is tickling, running around, wrestling a bit.....not biting, hitting, throwing, attacking, hurting. if they feel that this boy is "rough housing" then clearly they have a environment not in line with your values and needs. your daughter will be going to kinder soon, she needs to love school, look forward to it....not have anxiety about going!
I couldn't agree more! There is rough and tumble play like you said and that is completely normal, but when children are complaining of getting hurt and has anxiety about going to school, that's when it's too much and not ok!time to move on OP.
roughhousing is tickling, running around, wrestling a bit.....not biting, hitting, throwing, attacking, hurting. if they feel that this boy is "rough housing" then clearly they have a environment not in line with your values and needs. your daughter will be going to kinder soon, she needs to love school, look forward to it....not have anxiety about going!
Heidi 09:38 AM 02-07-2013
Thank you for the update. We are often left wondering. Best wishes to your family at your new daycare!
youretooloud 11:09 AM 02-07-2013
Originally Posted by LtTawnyMadison:
It was hard to tell the staff, and we do feel sad, because we've been with them so long and are friends with them! But my husband and I had an in-person meeting with them and told them why in as much detail as possible, and the director thanked us for being honest and indicated that it would be a learning experience for what they need to change in order to make sure the kids are all safe. (In the course of the conversation, she told me they had let go of 5 problem children in 2012.)
It was hard to tell the staff, and we do feel sad, because we've been with them so long and are friends with them! But my husband and I had an in-person meeting with them and told them why in as much detail as possible, and the director thanked us for being honest and indicated that it would be a learning experience for what they need to change in order to make sure the kids are all safe. (In the course of the conversation, she told me they had let go of 5 problem children in 2012.)
I know you feel bad, but they need to learn when to cut the child who is causing the problems before the other children leave.
In a smaller daycare home, we let the aggressive child go right away when we see they aren't making good strides. We can't afford to lose the other families, just to keep one child.
Kids do go through "jerky" stages at around age four. But, it doesn't usually involve hurting other kids. It's usually more of the "You aren't coming to my party", or "You aren't my friend".
LtTawnyMadison 11:35 AM 02-07-2013
I'd think it would make sense to have a specific policy, such as # of aggressive incidents, or length of time without improvement, after which the child would be automatically discharged. The policy book at the new school goes into MUCH more detail about many things than the one at the previous school.
LtTawnyMadison 07:00 AM 03-07-2013
So... the plot thickens. As of this past Monday, the boy who was repeatedly violent at her old school is now at her new school! Her old school expelled the boy after she left (not sure if it was a direct result of her leaving, or if more incidents happened). He's in a different class, though, as he is younger. I guess they have the age groups split up differently at the new school. My husband is still going to speak with the new school's director about it, though. Too bad kids don't come with references, huh?? If we need to, we can transfer our daughter to this school's other branch, which isn't any further distance away. I doubt it will be an issue though, since he's in a different class, and since part of the reason we transferred her to this school is because we believe they are duly viligant about issues like this. It's just super-ironic! 
Blackcat31 07:19 AM 03-07-2013
Originally Posted by LtTawnyMadison:
So... the plot thickens. As of this past Monday, the boy who was repeatedly violent at her old school is now at her new school! Her old school expelled the boy after she left (not sure if it was a direct result of her leaving, or if more incidents happened). He's in a different class, though, as he is younger. I guess they have the age groups split up differently at the new school. My husband is still going to speak with the new school's director about it, though. Too bad kids don't come with references, huh?? If we need to, we can transfer our daughter to this school's other branch, which isn't any further distance away. I doubt it will be an issue though, since he's in a different class, and since part of the reason we transferred her to this school is because we believe they are duly viligant about issues like this. It's just super-ironic!
So... the plot thickens. As of this past Monday, the boy who was repeatedly violent at her old school is now at her new school! Her old school expelled the boy after she left (not sure if it was a direct result of her leaving, or if more incidents happened). He's in a different class, though, as he is younger. I guess they have the age groups split up differently at the new school. My husband is still going to speak with the new school's director about it, though. Too bad kids don't come with references, huh?? If we need to, we can transfer our daughter to this school's other branch, which isn't any further distance away. I doubt it will be an issue though, since he's in a different class, and since part of the reason we transferred her to this school is because we believe they are duly viligant about issues like this. It's just super-ironic!
Wow! What a crazy situation! I can't believe he ended up in the same center with your DD again! I do think you are correct to be cautious and I would continue to make sure your DD stays in an opposite class from this boy but I would caution you on telling the current Director anything about this boy's history at the old center.
As a provider, I don't like to hear things about other families from other parents as I think that is somewhat crossing some confidentiality boundaries. I mean you can share YOUR perspective and what happened to you but I would tread carefully about giving out information about this other child since technically the Director shouldn't be discussing other children/families with you at all either....kwim?
I also want to mention that just because he was a bully or had trouble in the other center doesn't always mean he will be or is the same at this new center. The environment has ALOT to do with children and how they behave.
Personally, if I were you I would just make sure you DD stays in another classroom away from this boy and let the rest be.
LtTawnyMadison 07:57 AM 03-07-2013
That sounds like good advice. Our daughter doesn't seem concerned about it. How do we make sure they stay in separate classrooms without talking with staff about it?
Blackcat31 08:47 AM 03-07-2013
Originally Posted by LtTawnyMadison:
That sounds like good advice. Our daughter doesn't seem concerned about it. How do we make sure they stay in separate classrooms without talking with staff about it?
Oh, I would still talk to the staff and let them know that you want to make sure that your DD is not placed in the same room (ever) with the other child. That sounds like good advice. Our daughter doesn't seem concerned about it. How do we make sure they stay in separate classrooms without talking with staff about it?
You can let them know that your DD had issues with him due to aggression/bullying but I would just steer clear of anything that isn't directly related to your DD's experiences. I wouldn't tell them any other information I had.
I know it is a thin line but just try to keep the info to ONLY things related to your DD. If it is anything else, it just looks like gossip.