Flame suit has been zipped up.

Last week my husband and I were discussing the changes that I had juuust made to my potty training policy. For the most part, I am not a complete fan of the "child readiness" potty training approach. I understand it and I believe in it TO A DEGREE. So, with my policy changes, I am mainly trying to weed out the parents who are lazy and inconsistent when it comes to potty training. I also have no desire to potty train a child who turns the process into a power struggle. Unless a child has special needs, I have hopefully changed my last 4-year old turd . It's just my personal preference and this is what I am choosing for MY business.

So, remembering our conversation, my husband sent me this article from the paper. I know that this is a hot-button topic but I was curious to get everyone's thoughts on this. For the record, I side with the school on this. I also think that it was best for all involved that the mother take the child to a different school that will assist her with potty training - which she did. I think some parents don't understand the difference between "trained" and "training." IMHO, 8 daytime accidents in a month is excessive for a child who is considered trained. This would require going back into pull-ups at my house.

Anyway, the bottom line is that the school's policy is the school's policy. She signed the contract so she needs to abide by the policies whether she agrees with it or not.

SORRY SO LONG-WINDED. HERE IS THE ARTICLE:

Girl's suspension a sign of the times for potty training
By Brigid Schulte
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, January 30, 2011; A01
Zoe Rosso, who is 3 years old, likes to bake brownies with her mom, go to tumbling class, and make up elaborate worlds with tiny plastic animals and dolls. Like many children her age, she sometimes has difficulty making it to the toilet on time.
That's why she was suspended from her preschool. For a month.
Arlington Public Schools' Montessori preschool at Claremont Elementary "removed" Zoe in December, asking her parents not to bring her back to school for a month or until the child learned not to have any more "accidents."
The principal escorted Zoe and her mother, Betsy Rosenblatt Rosso, from the building Dec. 3. "The principal told me that Zoe had had enough chances," Rosso said. "That seemed absurd to me. It came as a total shock."
Now, Rosso - who had to effectively shut down her business for a month while she scrambled to find child care and still had to pay the preschool's $835 monthly tuition - is pushing the county and School Board to change its potty policy. She calls it her "Potty Manifesto."
"We would like Arlington County to revise its policy so that other kids and other families won't have their lives disrupted like this for something that's totally developmentally normal," Rosso said. "If a kid is emotionally and intellectually ready for school . . . then they should have the ability to go, regardless of whether their bladder has caught up with their brain."
Rosso finds herself at the center of an emotionally charged parenting issue. As schools push higher academic expectations down to ever-younger children, parents feel pressure to compete for openings at preschools that emphasize academic challenge. Some schools want to maximize their focus on academics by restricting classes to the fully toilet-trained.
Small bodies with tiny bladders struggle to keep up. Elizabeth Page, an early childhood specialist and executive director of the Falls Church-McLean Children's Center, called the county's removal policy "ridiculous."
"Potty training is very, very individual, just like learning to walk and learning to read," she said. "You can try to force a child to be potty-trained, but it's like asking a pig to fly. It frustrates you and irritates the pig."
Charmaine Ciardi, a Bethesda child development psychologist, said preschool potty policies vary widely because of state licensing requirements for hygiene, financing for staff or simply staff preferences. "In this time when people are more sensitive with issues of nudity and sexuality and children, some people are more reluctant to change a child," she said.
But policies that push children toward toilet-training at a uniform age put "too much stress on everybody," said Penny Glass, director of the Child Development Center at Children's National Medical Center. "To be successful with toilet training, it's much better not to force."
Fast-track toilet training
Rosso's fight comes as a new movement, called "elimination communication," is pushing to have infants as young as three months begin potty training. "Fast track," another controversial early training method in which a child is saturated with drinks and then placed on the pot, is also growing in popularity.
Rosso wants the county to acknowledge that 3-year-olds, even when they use the toilet frequently, as Zoe has since July, can and do still have frequent accidents. She wants schools to help kids, not punish or shame them.
"In our view, Zoe is potty-trained," the mother said. "But she's not perfect."
Arlington's Office of Early Childhood is reviewing Rosso's request, but spokeswoman Linda Erdos said requiring 3-year-olds to be toilet-trained has been county policy for decades. "The application for these preschool programs states very clearly that children must be toilet-trained, that we can't accept kids in Pull-Ups," she said. "We understand kids have accidents, but we're not staffed like a day-care or child-care center and can't address a child that needs help being potty-trained."
Erdos said county practice is to remove a child who has eight accidents in a month. "Once it gets to that point," she said, "it disrupts the class."
Rosso, who runs a communications consulting business, said she was not made aware of the county's accident limit until late November, when Claremont's principal told her that Zoe could be removed if she had three accidents in one week or one accident a week for three weeks.
Erdos said that she didn't know how many times Arlington preschools have enforced the removal policy but that it has been effective in the past.
Mark Wolraich, director of the Child Study Center at the University of Oklahoma and author of the "American Academy of Pediatrics' Guide to Toilet Training," said children typically begin to toilet-train between the ages of 18 months and 4 years. Some learn quickly, while others take months. Many learn, then regress. Accidents, he said, are common. Nearly a quarter of all 5-year-olds still have daytime accidents. Nighttime accidents can continue for much longer.
"A lot of the preschools allow or should be allowing for some accidents to be occurring," he said. "To expect kids to be perfect and not have any accidents is certainly not realistic."
Wolraich said toilet training, more than any other developmental milestone, has always been emotionally charged. The push for early training, he said, is more a reflection of parents' need for accomplishment than of any understanding of child physiology. "It's almost like a super-mom issue," he said. "There's not been any evidence that children who get trained earlier are any smarter or more accomplished later in life."
Zoe's story
Rosso went through a potty-training class in the summer. By the end of July, Zoe was using the toilet regularly. But when she started a new preschool program in September, the change threw her off. At pickup time, Zoe's teacher announced in front of everyone how many accidents the child had that day, Rosso said.
Two weeks later, when a slot opened up at the Claremont Montessori program, the Rossos gratefully transferred Zoe.
Through the fall, she would stay dry for weeks, then have a spate of accidents. She would clean up after herself, changing her own clothes. As teachers suggested, the Rossos took Zoe to a pediatrician, who said the child was perfectly normal. "Having a few accidents a week is not unusual," the doctor, Christine Baldrate, wrote to the school.
By that time, the Rossos had bought Zoe a special watch to go off every so often to remind her to go. They read or sang to her as she sat on her green frog potty. They watched training videos with her and devised an elaborate sticker system to reward her when she made it to the toilet on time.
After she was removed from school in December, Zoe had only a handful of accidents, her mother said.
With trepidation, the Rossos sent Zoe back to Claremont earlier this month. She stayed dry at first but within a few days had five accidents.
"I couldn't bring her back to school" after that, Rosso said. "Every single day, we'd be waiting for the principal to appear and escort us out of the building again."
After frantic calls, the parents found a spot for Zoe in a program that works with children who are being potty-trained.
"We told Zoe that we want her to go to a school where people aren't going to get mad at her for having accidents," Rosso said.
Since she started at the new school on Jan. 11, her mother said, Zoe has made it to the toilet every time.



Your thoughts on the matter?

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Misol, I agree with you. I am glad she is in a different school. I bet it's cheaper too! Proof, money doesn't buy you happiness.

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My sister and I were just discussing this yesterday. Unless you've worked in a daycare and a preschool enviornment, its hard to understand why this school did what they did.

They ask that the child be potty trained because they are in a higher level learning environment than a daycare "normally" has. In a preschool setting, its based so much, and ran alot like, kindergarten. Thats what they are doing. Preparing these children FOR public or private school - K and Up. Teachers in Kindergarten cant step away from their class to help a child go potty as can not a preschool teacher. Thats what a daycare is for. Those children are typically not in a structured scheduled preschool setting and the teacher has the ability to assist more with potty training, etc.

The school was right in their decision. I'd have done it too. If a child is having that many accidents, the child isnt potty trained. She is in-training, in which case she belongs in a daycare setting. Just my opinion.

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No flame suit required, Misol....she would be in diapers at my house. Pull-ups are a loophole I do not allow. Now for $800 a month I could keep half as many kids, so maybe.....eh, I digress.

Potty Training is a Parental Responsibility. One accident buys you two more weeks in diapers, here. I am strict on this issue.

My responsibility is to maintain a clean and safe environment for small children whom crawl on the floor and put everything in their mouths, I am good at it.

Their responsibility is to teach their child how to use the toilet, clean themselves up and flush. I will take them to the potty when the child asks in words (not grunts or signals. I am not going to be potty trained by a toddler .) and up to once an hour unsolicited if asked by parent that I see is doing the work at home.

I, like most of us, will bend over backwards for someone who is REALLY trying at most anything....

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Very interesting. I agree with the schools policies as they signed the contract. But, doesn't mean I agree with how things are being done with little kids these days. Our society has become push push when it comes to kids. No longer is a child allowed to be a child at the age of 3, to play and pretend, and just be simply a kid. The government, parents, educational systems, are pushing academics down their throat at such a young age. No wonder so many kids today have issues.

I often wonder...instead of pushing a child into preschool at age 3/4, into kindy at 4/5, why the educational system doesn't extend the other way, where a young adult will go to school later into their 19/20 yrs old.

I have had young kids come thru my daycare, go into early k at age 4, and all the parents did was complain about poor "insert name here", somebody is picking on him, blah blah, seriously, he is 4, he should not be getting on a school bus going to early kindy. He obviously isn't mature enough to handle the situation. Oh wait, that family saved some $$$ in daycare fees.

My sister worked in an elementary school as an aide for 11 years, it is pathetic the stories that are told. Kids can't read in grades 2 and 3, out of control, disrespectful, immaturity is a major factor, the whole dynamics of kids today verses years ago has changed, and not to the better. Why? I have my theories....such as government intervention by people who have pry never raised their own child. Trying to play catch up with other countries in the educational field, only we are obviously not doing it right. Our society has taken away discipline. Everybody else thinks they know what is best for "my" kid and then the government regs say that is how it is. It is a vicious circle. Adults are not allowed to discipline children, time outs and redirections obviously don't work.....

As far as the little girl Zoe, maybe she wasn't ready to be moved into the classroom she was being pushed into. And to have 8 accidents a month, I personally think they were being very kind in giving that. Here, I would never allow that. Just the health and hygiene factor alone is gross, let alone the cost and time involved in cleaning the mess. And her mother....Wants her to be potty trained, but she obviously isn't when she has that many accidents. And to put your child thru a potty training class......that is just hilarious in my mind. If you have to go to those extremes, forget it and try again later.

"Having a few accidents a week is not unusual," the doctor, Christine Baldrate, wrote to the school.......Really, since when. In my 11+ years of a daycare provider, having a few accidents a week from a child who was suppposedly potty trained is NOT normal by any means and would never be allowed to happen here.

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I haven't read previous responses...

When I worked in a center I had to term a child who would have an accident daily (in a 3-hour program). We were not staffed nor licensed to work with children that were not potty trained. It was not a hard decision.

I think you have to do what you're comfortable with.

For me, I have no problem with a 3-year old not being potty trained. When they hit 3.5 then it's time to talk with the parents about how to motivate the child (and the parents...). But I wouldn't personally term over it. But, again, we all individual business owners and have the right to our own rules.

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Just read some of the responses...

Yeh, we are absolutely pushing children academically too young. Has anyone read Boys Adrift by Leonard Sax? It's a very scary book that talks about the lack of motivation we're seeing in young men these days. He cites several reasons for this, one of them being changes in school standards for 5- yr olds. He said tat 5-yr old boy's brains are at the maturity level of a 3-yr old girl. The book is a little alarmist, I think, BUT everything he talks about is based in research and I have also seen this phenomenon of unmotivated men myself. It's a very interesting read and I highly recommend it to anyone who works with children or has children.

But, while the research suggests that boys are (for the most part) not ready to read at age 5, their little bodies are ready to be trained by around 3. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a boy to be trained sometime in their 3-yr old year.

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I think the school followed the appropriate steps.

Here's where my mind goes everytime i read anything like this article....It's one side of the story, with pieces of the other side dropped in...

As childcare providers, we know that when a parent is unhappy, their truth is not our truth.

Children need to be ready to potty train. There is a point in time where it is needed to push a little harder, but never to discourage the child, or make them fear it.

2 of my 3 children regressed, for different reasons, and then had to start over. Now all 3 of my children are "potty trained". My youngest has actually gone weeks and weeks no accidents, and then all of a sudden he pees his pants once or twice this day, and again another day. Usually I find there is a reason behind it, such as he's getting a cold and hasn't quite hit him yet.

My biggest issue here, is it was mentioned that the girl was potty trained at home, had accidents many times at this school, and when switched to a new school no accidents?!?! Maybe there is an underlying issue here? Children do stuff for attention. I agree with a previous poster who said maybe she was being pushed into this class. Maybe she just wasn't ready to act like she was older than she was.

I know when my daughter started Kindergarten I was shocked at the expectations. I remember kindergarten and it was nothing like it is today. My daughter had to be able to read, write, count to 20 or something, do spelling bees and more. Not a biggy, that's fine. Grade 1 now, and she has more homework than I ever did in grade 4!

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the way I look at it, children at 3 should start being potty trained, there is no reason for them to have adult poops in their diapers, I think it ridiculous that we are now letting children pick and choose when and what they want to do. Read the posts, children come with soothers now at that age and cry and scream when they don't get it, bottles, blankets, having accidents in their pants because "they are getting back at people" its like parents find it easier to give in then face alot of the problems head on.

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I feel the same. I think a lot of parents choose to not let their children grow up. It was sad for me when my youngest started to become independent. My baby is all grown up.
I was one of those parents that let my child have bedtime only bottles until 2 yrs old. At 1 1/2 years, I weaned them down to 1 bottle a day, and by 2 they were completely off of bottles. I know I know. Potty training to me should start around age 2 -2 1/2. I think starting at age 3 is a little late. If you child is not completely trained at 3 that is fine.

However, I will not be changing a 3 yrs olds diaper in my dayhome. Sorry, that's my preference. I think, although I would never do it, that if a 3 yr old is having accidents in their pants, mom and/or dad can come pick them up and change them. Baby diapers smell bad enough, I can't see myself not vomiting changing a 3 yos butt.

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I saw this article posted on another message board (a parenting oriented one) and man, were the comments different!

The school got flamed pretty bad by many of the commenters, arguing that they should make allowances, that it's not that hard to have her in pull-ups, etc, etc, etc. I was wondering what the reaction would be over here and tempted to post it myself! I knew that everyone would be on the school's side for the most part (I do think that they shouldn't have been announcing the accidents in front of everyone, and I do wonder if she was being punished/ridiculed for having accidents, which in turn caused more of them out of anxiety and embarrassment).

On the whole though, 8 accidents/month, even in a 5 day/week program, is a LOT of accidents. That's NOT a fully-potty-trained child. The school has a policy; the policy needs to be followed. End of story.

I have decided not to even try potty-training with any child not verbal enough to either tell me with words or with a sign (the sign for potty). If they aren't/can't initiate the potty trip, they aren't ready. Now that being said, I'm not adverse to giving them a bit of incentive to learn to ask (I'm gearing up to bribe a 2.5 yo with a chocolate chip every time he goes on the potty because I know that he's naked trained at home, and I am OVER changing his dipes).

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I agree with the school. Its unsanitary, distracting, and the child will be embarrassed if he/she is the only child in class with frequent accidents. I don't have an age where the kids must be trained here, but closing in on 4 years and I would speak to the parent and encourage hem to speak to the child's doctor. I find that MOST kids are trained easily between 3- 3.5 years old. But training does NOT happen overnight. With the majority of kids, it is a few months of trial and error. And that is OK! I'd rather a long training process and a kid who isn't scared of toileting than a rushed one where the child holds it until it causes fear and pain. I have seen both and the latter is not pretty.

I have the 2 week dry rule here as well. Pull ups or diapers until they are dry 2 full weeks in my home. I do this bc #1) I have other kids who play in these areas. I must be kept sanitary at all times. #2) I am the only person here. I cannot leave the other kids or be distracted while dealing with multiple accidents per day. #3) This is my HOME. I refuse to live in a place that has urine stained carpet padding and smells like a litter box. Call me selfish, but my daycare area is immaculate and brand new. I am keeping it that way.

I don't push potty training, like others said, I have enough on my plate with the other kids. I ask/encourage at transition times but the bulk of the work MUST be done at home. I can easily tell who is working on it at home and who expects it to be done here

A child is not truly potty ready until they can fell they need to go, verbalize this need, hold it until they are on the toilet, and do the bulk of undressing/dressing alone. Otherwise it is just the parent or caregiver who is trained. Reminding a child every half hour is not going to have them trained faster, it is going to cause frustration for a child who is not ready.

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[quote=mac60;78558] I certainly agree with you and other posters that kids are being pushed too hard academically at too young an age.


Just want to clarify that I wouldn't necessarily term over it. My policy says that care may be suspended if the parents haven't started or at least attempted the process by a certain age. Then, once they have fully trained their child on their terms, care can resume. My guess is that being suspended is likely to make the parent seek care elsewhere and I am OK with that. All I really want is to make sure that the parents have been really trying and not just waiting around for the child to finally be "ready" or worse, waiting for me to do it. Potty training is a parental resposibility and that providers are there to assist.

[quote=dEHmom;78572]

I agree with this.


This could be the case. At the new school it looks as if being potty trained is probably not a requirement. They probably have the appropriate facilites and enough staff to deal with diaper changes and repeated accidents in that setting.

Do most preschools do group bathroom breaks? Like right before and after lunch, etc.? Or do they simply wait for the child to say they have to go?

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[quote=misol;78596] Every preschool that I have worked at does NOT do group potty breaks, kids go when they have to go. But, as teachers you also know those children that need reminders and you try to remind them to go regularly. Not always possible when there are 20 kids in a room.

And, you're right, I didn't mean to say that "you" would term, I meant it in a more general sense of "one" might term. Sorry.

ETA: We never did group potty breaks because we would have 24 children and only 2 potties, so, yeh that would take the entire 3 hours .

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I totally figured that this would be the case and am surprised that no parents or unregistereds have posted yet. I'll give it time.

Oh, and 100% agree that the teacher was out of line announcing to everyone that the child had an accident!!!. I believe that when a child does have an accident, it should be taken care of discreetly with as little interuption to others as possible.

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ENTITLEMENT...


I KNOW that this school has been specifically set up for children who are potty trained...BUT my child is special. It is normal for a child to have accidents so that means that this school must change its policy to accommodate MY child.

I want THIS school and if my child doesn't fit the parameters of their prgram, then they need to change the program. Because it all about ME and what I want.

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my kid was completely potty trained and in underwear before he was 2, child readiness is a cop out and an excuse for parents to be lazy. I never understood the big deal of "don't potty train too early, you'll mess your kid up for life!" Seriously? It's pee and poop, not espionage. I would think that letting a 3 or 4 year old child poop on themselves and think that's totally acceptable would warped them far more than toilet training...

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I work with 3 year olds at a large daycare and we DO have group potty breaks. Depending on the day, we can have between 12-18 children in our class and we break before snack and after lunch. Most of our kids came into class potty-trained, but we have 3 or 4 that we initiated the potty-training with parents; most were successful. We do have occasional accidents. We had one 3 year old completely potty trained who went on vacation for 3 weeks and came back wearing diapers. When we asked mom what happened, she blamed the child and then switched to pull-ups. As far as we are concerned pull-ups are the same as diapers and in most cases do more harm than good. Most kids are not fooled into thinking they are wearing underwear and will treat them as diapers.

When I sent my own children to pre-school, I did not have a choice. If children weren't potty-trained, they could not go. And I totally agree with that.

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This could also be a case of parental lying. The parents could be saying the child is accident free at home and saying the few days/weeks she has been in the new day care she is accident free but until we hear from the new day care and they have had her for a length of time similiar to the time she was in the first preschool we won't really know.

Potty training "success" is a very common area to have parental lying.
What is important for the provider is to base their evaluation of the child's readiness or abilities based on the childs performance in CARE. It's not important what this child did at home or did at the day care after she left their care. What IS important is the childs inability while she was in their care. That's all the know FOR SURE.

Potty training ability can often be associated with giftedness and can also be directly related to money. Whenever either of these is in question and a part of the decision making it's important to consider parental lying.

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"Rosso went through a potty-training class in the summer. "
Obvioussly that went well I've always wondered of those classes come with a money back guarantee?!?
I think the school was well within their rights. She knew before she enrolled her chid that she had to be trained-that's probably the only reason she took "the class"!

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I agree with school too, if this girl would of been in my care and peeing her pants alot she would of been out the door I do NOT accept children who are 3 or older and not potty trained UNLESS they have a special need. Parents are lazy these days and this is why we have 3 and 4 year olds running around in diapers its just gross. Kids can start training anywhere between 18 months to 2 and half years old. Sorry I just feel very strongly about kids peeing and pooping in diapers at the age of 3 or older.

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AMEN!!!!!

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true - she probably only got accepted into the preschool in the first place because she LIED and said she was potty trained. i saw this at head start a couple years ago - a boy wearing pull ups. i asked the teacher, "i thought they had to be potty trained" and she said they were, and that mom said he was - but of course the aide is the one who got the privelege of changing his pull ups so they let it go. i'm sure if the aide would've refused (because that is NOT part of the job) he would've had to leave the program that he was accepted into based on a lie.

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