Default Style Register
Daycare.com Forum
Daycare Center and Family Home Forum>Daycare Without Cry-It-Out
preschoolteacher 03:38 PM 05-03-2013
Hi everyone,

I'm not here to start a debate for or against cry-it-out. We all have our own style, and in a group care setting, I can certainly see why CIO would be used. What I do want to know is if any providers do nap time WITHOUT doing cry-it-out. How do you make it work? I'd love to hear some examples.

Thanks in advance!
Reply
Heidi 03:47 PM 05-03-2013
There have been numerous debates here about CIO. I personally use a modified method of "sleep training", which should not be confused with CIO, but often is.

This means, baby is put to bed awake and prepared (talked to softly, a song, a little rocking). Then, I usually rub their tummy after they're snuggled in, and talk to them softly for a minute. Pacifier or thumb-either way is ok, if that helps them.

Then I walk out quiety, saying "nighty night"

If they fuss, I wait 3 or 4 minutes, then go back and rub, whisper, replace pacifier.

If they fuss, I wait a little longer, repeat...

Keep doing until baby sleeps.

When they wake, I always, always go in and talk to them before I get them up. "Hi...dck...you are awake! Are you ready to get up?" I never pick them up crying, but soothe them with my voice and gentle rubbing first. Once they've calmed, I pick them up.

For over 20 some years of working with young children, this has worked for me. With the exception of a few part-timers, I have had many happy sleepers in my home.
Reply
Leanna 03:58 PM 05-03-2013
I don't do cry-it-out. I personally do not believe that young infants have the ability to self-sooth enough to be expected to soothe themselves to sleep. I also do not think that it is appropriate for a child care provider to do cry-it-out because they are not the baby's main caregiver. When I have young infants they usually sleep for part of naptime and then cuddle & play with me while the toddlers sleep. I don't expect young infants to sleep as long as the older kids because they take morning naps too.
Reply
Meeko 04:16 PM 05-03-2013
I do it exactly like Heidi. Nap time is never an issue. The kids I have now lie and down and go to sleep without so much as a peep.

New kids can sometimes take a while, but in 28 years I have never had one that didn't settle into routine.
Reply
WoodOx 04:25 PM 05-03-2013
I dont do CIO at nap time. they fall asleep uneasy and restless when they cry to sleep.
if a baby needs comforting i will hold them for a little while. as they get older they learn to sleep with out help.
Reply
blandino 04:36 PM 05-03-2013
I do it exactly like Heidi. When we first start with a new child they fuss, but now out kids go right down. I think having a routine with k
Lots of external cues is very beneficial. We nap at almost the same time very day, and nap always comes in the same order. Everyone gets changed, lights off, shades drawn, music goes on, and into bed they go.
Reply
AmyKidsCo 05:02 PM 05-03-2013
I don't CIO - I rock the baby to sleep or wear them in a carrier, then put them down. Right now I'm a little frustrated because my 18m grandson is with me for a few weeks and he's still used to being rocked to sleep, but I do rock him instead of CIO.
Reply
preschoolteacher 05:06 PM 05-03-2013
Great tips. Thanks! I do not do CIO with my own son and do not want to do it with daycare kids either. I plan to just have 1 baby, so I can attend to that baby however he/she needs, but what I'm concerned about is 1-2 year old kids who don't go to sleep on their own in addition to the baby.

Amy, if your grandson was staying with you for more than a few weeks, what would you do to help him nap on his own?
Reply
LittleD 05:50 PM 05-03-2013
See, at 2, I think they are too big to be rocked to sleep. (at least my 2yr olds are) I'd break my back trying to rock them. Most of my kids have started here at approx 7-8mths, and I'd do the sleep training.

For older ones, I start with some sleep training, but allow them to CIO as well. Once they have been here a few weeks (FT) and all else seems to be well adjusted, I may go in twice to lay them down, cover them back up and whisper "Īt's rest time. Nigh Night"" Then they fuss them selves to sleep. Seems to work for me.
Reply
LaLa1923 05:55 PM 05-03-2013
As someone certifying to be a sleep coach, sleep training is so important. I recommend the sleep lady method. It really is a learned skill. It needs to be taught. I couldn't imagine having to constantly rock a baby. If babies were all I cared for that would be one thing. However, I have mixed ages in our current group.

I recommend reading the sleep lady book, (kim west)- "Good Night Sleep Tight: The Sleep Lady's Guide to Helping Your Child go to Sleep, and Wake Up Happy".

In it it discusses naps. I could not live without this book over the years!!
Reply
cheerfuldom 06:42 PM 05-03-2013
I think a big part of why kids normally do a lot better at daycare is because we providers generally run on a routine. The kids know what to expect and see everyone else going to nap and that all results in less of a fight. right now I have 7 kids here and routine causes five of the kids go to sleep with no problem whatsoever. One is special needs and her naps are unpredictable....thats a whole different scenario. One of them (almost 2) does fuss to sleep. I have tried rocking and also tried going in to comfort and what not. Its not working. If I leave her to fuss/cry for a few minutes, she does go down on her own. I dont just dump her in there and leave her to cry for hours. I think it is important for providers to prep kids for naps. Whatever way you do it, make sure it is consistent. Sometimes you have to change things up a bit for certain kids who might need some extra attention but I really do think that routine solves a huge part of the issues that parents see at home. Also, outdoor time in the morning plus a cool down period before bed (reading books or soft music) helps a lot.

Now for kids under 18 months....that can be tougher. Especially with infants and especially with parents that do something totally different than the provider. If they get their kid used to car drives each night to go to bed, there is no way that a provider than replicate that and then that leaves the provider and the child with a problem that is only seen at daycare.

I think it is a good idea to only take one or two at the very most, infants under 12 months at a time. Our rule for a most licensed home daycares in my area is no more than 2 under 2 years old and I think that is a good rule in general. Another suggestion is to adjust only one new kid at a time. If you can get some good nap habits established with one before adding the next, that will be easier on you.

Just make sure to keep your expectations reasonable. I think it is wonderful for providers to have a plan in place to avoid hard core CIO. I also think it is important to know that even with that goal in mind, kids will still cry. that is just a normal part of being a kid and sometimes there is nothing we can do. your best bet is to have a good routine in place and to find like minded parents. there is only so much we can do to overcome what the parents are doing at home, if it happens to be far away from the daycare policies.
Reply
AmyKidsCo 07:32 PM 05-03-2013
Originally Posted by preschoolteacher:
Amy, if your grandson was staying with you for more than a few weeks, what would you do to help him nap on his own?
Honestly, I think I'd still have to rock him to sleep for quite a while. I'm not sure I could overcome his habits of being swaddled (they still swaddle him), rocked to sleep, and sleeping on/with Mom. She's said that "they outgrow the cuddly stage so quickly I don't mind spoiling him now."

I do put him in bed awake and wait 20-30 min to see if he'll sleep on his own, but he's old enough to keep himself awake for a LONG time, even when he's really tired. And he has a really high-pitched scream, like fingernails on a chalkboard - I think if I tried CIO I'd give in before he did.
Reply
countrymom 04:58 AM 05-04-2013
I think it all depends on the situation. i really don't recommend the rocking, I've been down this road with my own. But I was home and could do it, but if I was bringing my child to daycare i would try and break them of this habit.

also routine is a big thing. I also think thats why kids do so much better here. They know what to expect when its bed time, and its at the same time every day. i hate hearing how on the weekends little suzie went to nap at 2pm and didn't wake up till dinner and then partied all night cause they weren't tired.

I have the dr ferber sleep book and its good too. It also talks about sleep training (easy read book) and basically he also recommends going in after a few minutes. It does work. But remember, that every child is different, what works for one doesn't always work for another.
Reply
Lavender 05:54 AM 05-04-2013
I'm different than most on here as I'm a lead teacher in a child care center. My kids are the mobile infants and I do not do cio in any way. To me a child at this age needs to have their perceived needs met, and they don't have the ability to discern what is a true need or what isn't. To them it just all feels like needs. Most of my kids are able to nap around the same time in the afternoon. As I'm getting everything ready (checking diapers, picking up toys) I slowly start making it darker and I turn on my nap music. I start talking in a soothing manner. I lay each child down in the way I know they like. I see who is having the hardest time settling and start with them first. Some like their backs rubbed, some like their butts gently pat, some just like a hand stroking the side of their face. I do everything I can to encourage them to go to sleep on their own, but I help anyone who needs it too. It is important to me that naptime feels like a happy and safe time for them. My babies don't cry at all and sometimes they all go to sleep on their own.
Reply
Cradle2crayons 07:58 AM 05-04-2013
I used a modified form of CIO with my daughter who is 10 now when she was little, my son simply went down in a melted heap when nap time came lol... My youngest now is 15 months and she still needs two naps a day... If she's here long enough she gets both naps here.... But she gets up at her house at 530 and goes down for a nap here at 930 am and sleeps until 1145 and then eats lunch with everyone... Then all the older kids go down for a nap after lunch at 1245 or so...my son goes to sleep in his room and the others go to sleep in the nap room on their mats... Lights out, music on, out like a light, end of story. They wake up at 300 pm ready for their snack.
Reply
providerandmomof4 08:15 AM 05-04-2013
Originally Posted by LaLa1923:
As someone certifying to be a sleep coach, sleep training is so important. I recommend the sleep lady method. It really is a learned skill. It needs to be taught. I couldn't imagine having to constantly rock a baby. If babies were all I cared for that would be one thing. However, I have mixed ages in our current group.

I recommend reading the sleep lady book, (kim west)- "Good Night Sleep Tight: The Sleep Lady's Guide to Helping Your Child go to Sleep, and Wake Up Happy".

In it it discusses naps. I could not live without this book over the years!!
I cannot tell you how much I love this forum. I have been struggling with my dgd at naps and watching her mom struggle with her at bedtime. This child was a maniac because she was never getting an adequate amount of sleep. She is 13 mths and stubborn so we were all just giving in to her every whim...rocking, walking, bottles, it goes on. This was not working for me during dc when I had several other kiddos to watch, I couldn't spend an hour trying to get her to sleep. I was miserable-she was cranky and miserable.

I bought this book yesterday, and it is already working!!!!!
Letting her cry it out was only making her furious, and when she finally did fall asleep, it was a short nap (30mins) and then she woke up hysterical. Today she woke early (5:45) and was down for her morn nap at 8:30 with minimal fussing and no bottle. I'll have to work on the morning nap being a little later, but...first things first, right?

I can't thank you enough for sharing this book....AWESOME! I'll let you know how my dgd does when she realizes this is how it's going to work at every sleep time. .
Reply
Blackcat31 08:30 AM 05-04-2013
I do it just like Heidi as well.

I would never just plop a child into a PNP and leave them to fend for themselves. Just like any skill a child learns, being able to self-soothe or put yourself to sleep is a learned skill.

Like Cheer said, I think it works a lot better for child care providers because we base our days around consistency and routine whereas at home a child's family schedule may not be a strict or consistent and I think that plays a HUGE roll in sleep confusion for kids.

The activity leading up to sleep is just as important as sleeping and I think a lot of parents/providers over look that.

Another fantastic book about sleep and one that addresses the issue of "But he is so full of energy right before bed so I know he isn't tired...maybe he should start giving up his daytime naps even though he is only 2" words we often hear from parents is:

"Sleepless in America. Is your child misbehaving or missing sleep" by Mary Sheedy Kurcinka FANTASTIC book and worth the read!!

http://www.amazon.com/Sleepless-Amer.../dp/006073602X
Reply
Play Care 04:12 AM 05-06-2013
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
I do it just like Heidi as well.

I would never just plop a child into a PNP and leave them to fend for themselves. Just like any skill a child learns, being able to self-soothe or put yourself to sleep is a learned skill.

Like Cheer said, I think it works a lot better for child care providers because we base our days around consistency and routine whereas at home a child's family schedule may not be a strict or consistent and I think that plays a HUGE roll in sleep confusion for kids.

The activity leading up to sleep is just as important as sleeping and I think a lot of parents/providers over look that.

Another fantastic book about sleep and one that addresses the issue of "But he is so full of energy right before bed so I know he isn't tired...maybe he should start giving up his daytime naps even though he is only 2" words we often hear from parents is:

"Sleepless in America. Is your child misbehaving or missing sleep" by Mary Sheedy Kurcinka FANTASTIC book and worth the read!!

http://www.amazon.com/Sleepless-Amer.../dp/006073602X

Reply
LaLa1923 07:34 AM 05-06-2013
Originally Posted by providerandmomof4:
I cannot tell you how much I love this forum. I have been struggling with my dgd at naps and watching her mom struggle with her at bedtime. This child was a maniac because she was never getting an adequate amount of sleep. She is 13 mths and stubborn so we were all just giving in to her every whim...rocking, walking, bottles, it goes on. This was not working for me during dc when I had several other kiddos to watch, I couldn't spend an hour trying to get her to sleep. I was miserable-she was cranky and miserable.

I bought this book yesterday, and it is already working!!!!!
Letting her cry it out was only making her furious, and when she finally did fall asleep, it was a short nap (30mins) and then she woke up hysterical. Today she woke early (5:45) and was down for her morn nap at 8:30 with minimal fussing and no bottle. I'll have to work on the morning nap being a little later, but...first things first, right?

I can't thank you enough for sharing this book....AWESOME! I'll let you know how my dgd does when she realizes this is how it's going to work at every sleep time. .

You are very welcome! ! I've used this book a lot over the years! I hope it serves you well!

Reply
LeslieG 07:55 AM 05-06-2013
Instead of CIO (b/c it just didn't work for this particular child who is 11 months), if he wakes up still tired (I can usually tell) I go in and lay him back down in his crib and say "it's night night time". I usually have to stand in the room for 5-10 minutes until he falls back asleep, otherwise he will see that I am gone and stand up crying again.

Some days are better than others, but he is progressively getting better with naps!
Reply
tjones34 09:10 AM 05-06-2013
I have not had any nap time issues in my daycare. I put the kids down and read them a story after it is done I walk out quietly say goodnight and after about 15 minutes they are usually sleep. Including my 3 year old.
Reply
countrymom 09:40 AM 05-06-2013
I've been finding that when I tell the kids "good night" that it works, also, I give them a warning, like in 10 min. I tell them we are going to clean up because its going to be nap time, then in 5 min, I tell them we are going to go to the bathroom because its going to be time for a nap, then I tell them its nap time. I find sometimes when I give them a warning they are good too.
Reply
Leigh 03:16 PM 05-08-2013
Originally Posted by preschoolteacher:
Hi everyone,

I'm not here to start a debate for or against cry-it-out. We all have our own style, and in a group care setting, I can certainly see why CIO would be used. What I do want to know is if any providers do nap time WITHOUT doing cry-it-out. How do you make it work? I'd love to hear some examples.

Thanks in advance!
I do not do "cry-it-out". I see it as inhumane treatment. Babies cry when they have a need that hasn't been met. Meet the need, and the baby doesn't cry. I couldn't live with myself if I just laid an infant down and walked away. How do I make it work? I just pick the baby up and carry him/her with me until I have the time to meet his/her need. A baby carrier is a big help.
Reply
preschoolteacher 04:57 PM 05-08-2013
Leigh, I don't do cry-it-out either, and I'm not interested in starting. What I find confusing is how to get several children to nap at the same time and meet all their needs. One baby would be no problem, but I'll likely have three children under 2, and a couple 2 year olds on top of that!
Reply
Heidi 07:11 PM 05-08-2013
Originally Posted by Leigh:
I do not do "cry-it-out". I see it as inhumane treatment. Babies cry when they have a need that hasn't been met. Meet the need, and the baby doesn't cry. I couldn't live with myself if I just laid an infant down and walked away. How do I make it work? I just pick the baby up and carry him/her with me until I have the time to meet his/her need. A baby carrier is a big help.
I REALLY wish people would stop suggesting that everyone is PRO CIO if they are not willing to carry babies around every moment. There is an enormous difference between carrying constantly and just laying a baby in bed and walking away, leaving them to cry for hours on end. I don't think there is a single person here that would do that.

Sorry...don't mean to be snarky! It's just that this conversation comes up once a week or so, and someone always suggests carrying. I have 3 infants and am 48 years old. Even at 28 I couldn't carry all 3 at once.

Yes, a baby cries because they have a need. But that need is not necessarily to be carried around like a sack of potatoes. That need might be hunger, discomfort, overstimulation, being tired, or just plain needing to cry. We all need to cry now and then; I sure do!

When I cry, the last thing I want is someone telling me to stop. What I want is someone telling me that they love me, they will support me, and that they are here to help me.

I don't "do" CIO. But within 2 weeks of being in my program, I could bet you big money that all my kiddos go to sleep happily, with rarely a fuss. They see their beds as comfortable, happy places to cuddle and sleep. Same as me at the end of a long day...
Reply
Heidi 07:14 PM 05-08-2013
Originally Posted by preschoolteacher:
Leigh, I don't do cry-it-out either, and I'm not interested in starting. What I find confusing is how to get several children to nap at the same time and meet all their needs. One baby would be no problem, but I'll likely have three children under 2, and a couple 2 year olds on top of that!
I'm in the same situation. Love every day of it, but it sure is a challenge, eh?

I found this blog with some great insights. Maybe she's written something you can relate to.


http://scienceofmom.com/2012/02/23/t...-infant-sleep/
Reply
Heidi 07:22 PM 05-08-2013
So...I have to ask a question of those folks who are super anti-CIO.

How many minutes would you find it acceptable for an infant to cry. Lets say, a 6 mo, to be specific.

I'm not being argumentative or snarky at all.

Just trying to find out what people are comfortable with. If a baby cries for 2 minutes, is that too long? 5, 10, 15? It doesn't matter the reason; they are hungry, tired, whatever. Your busy changing a diaper, feeding someone else, going potty, etc.

I'm thinking that even attachment or no-cry parenting acknowledges that a baby must cry momentarily at the least? Or is the theory that one would be so in-tuned with the baby that you anticipate it's every need?
Reply
MyAngels 07:43 PM 05-08-2013
Originally Posted by Heidi:
I REALLY wish people would stop suggesting that everyone is PRO CIO if they are not willing to carry babies around every moment. There is an enormous difference between carrying constantly and just laying a baby in bed and walking away, leaving them to cry for hours on end. I don't think there is a single person here that would do that.

Sorry...don't mean to be snarky! It's just that this conversation comes up once a week or so, and someone always suggests carrying. I have 3 infants and am 48 years old. Even at 28 I couldn't carry all 3 at once.

Yes, a baby cries because they have a need. But that need is not necessarily to be carried around like a sack of potatoes. That need might be hunger, discomfort, overstimulation, being tired, or just plain needing to cry. We all need to cry now and then; I sure do!

When I cry, the last thing I want is someone telling me to stop. What I want is someone telling me that they love me, they will support me, and that they are here to help me.

I don't "do" CIO. But within 2 weeks of being in my program, I could bet you big money that all my kiddos go to sleep happily, with rarely a fuss. They see their beds as comfortable, happy places to cuddle and sleep. Same as me at the end of a long day...


Well said.
Reply
Cradle2crayons 08:53 PM 05-08-2013
While I don't do "CIO " officially, I absolutely do NOT agree with carrying a baby or child around all the time. My daughter went through aghast where the ONLY way she would go to sleep was to let her fuss a few minutes. She wouldn't sleep held,in anything,rocked, patted, nothing. I simply fed, changed,put on calm music just as I always had, and put her in the bed. Sometimes she would take 5 minutes, sometimes 10 or 15 minutes. And a few times more than that.

I agree with the pp sometimes babies needs are met and they simply are over tired etc and just need to cry. My experience carrying a baby around left to other habits that were undesirable. I think at some point it makes the come to the point that the ONLY need that the baby wanted met was to be held all the time lol... Babies are smart. My daughter did that a lot because she was sick so much and was held a lot at first. Yanno one of those kids who cry like they are dying and you pick them up and immediately they are smiling. Put them back down, they cry again.
Reply
Blackcat31 08:34 AM 05-09-2013
Originally Posted by Heidi:
I REALLY wish people would stop suggesting that everyone is PRO CIO if they are not willing to carry babies around every moment. There is an enormous difference between carrying constantly and just laying a baby in bed and walking away, leaving them to cry for hours on end. I don't think there is a single person here that would do that.

Sorry...don't mean to be snarky! It's just that this conversation comes up once a week or so, and someone always suggests carrying. I have 3 infants and am 48 years old. Even at 28 I couldn't carry all 3 at once.

Yes, a baby cries because they have a need. But that need is not necessarily to be carried around like a sack of potatoes. That need might be hunger, discomfort, overstimulation, being tired, or just plain needing to cry. We all need to cry now and then; I sure do!

When I cry, the last thing I want is someone telling me to stop. What I want is someone telling me that they love me, they will support me, and that they are here to help me.

I don't "do" CIO. But within 2 weeks of being in my program, I could bet you big money that all my kiddos go to sleep happily, with rarely a fuss. They see their beds as comfortable, happy places to cuddle and sleep. Same as me at the end of a long day...
Rock on!

Nicely said!
Reply
Heidi 08:52 AM 05-09-2013
Originally Posted by Cradle2crayons:
While I don't do "CIO " officially, I absolutely do NOT agree with carrying a baby or child around all the time. My daughter went through aghast where the ONLY way she would go to sleep was to let her fuss a few minutes. She wouldn't sleep held,in anything,rocked, patted, nothing. I simply fed, changed,put on calm music just as I always had, and put her in the bed. Sometimes she would take 5 minutes, sometimes 10 or 15 minutes. And a few times more than that.

I agree with the pp sometimes babies needs are met and they simply are over tired etc and just need to cry. My experience carrying a baby around left to other habits that were undesirable. I think at some point it makes the come to the point that the ONLY need that the baby wanted met was to be held all the time lol... Babies are smart. My daughter did that a lot because she was sick so much and was held a lot at first. Yanno one of those kids who cry like they are dying and you pick them up and immediately they are smiling. Put them back down, they cry again.
Babies ARE smart!!!!


4 mo who is not a "good" sleeper (hasn't learned any self-soothing), is a good example. Over the past few days, I have been helping her (gently) learn to go to sleep without rocking and singing a specific song (not sharing name in order to stay anonymous).

Yesterday before nap, I changed her diaper, and began singing the song. She looked me straight in the eye and CRIED. She KNEW what was comming next just because at home, they sing her that song, walk around, and hold her paci in her mouth for her until she falls asleep. Then, they "sneak" her into bed.

I say: Think it about it from her perspective for a second. First of all, it's disrespectful, IMO, to "fool" her like that. Also, she falls asleep cuddles and sung to, and then wakes up alone. Confusing and maybe a little scary.

I put her to bed, talked to her soothingly, gave her the top of her blanket to hold (she likes to hold a finger, and this is as close as I could give her), put her paci in. Then I said 'Night night" and left. She fussed, so I went in again (2 minutes), replaced paci, smiled, and left. Rinse and repeat 2x, once after 4 minutes, once after 6 or so (estimate). Then it was quiet, and she slept for 3 hours without a peep. When she woke up she was smiling at me like "FINALLY!".

So, that was 12 minutes of work, vs. the "5 minutes" I was supposed to walk and sing to her, all the while leaving any other children in the group unattended.

That is NOT CIO, yet she was supported and given the message that she is a capable little human being.
Reply
bunnyslippers 09:02 AM 05-09-2013
Originally Posted by Heidi:
There have been numerous debates here about CIO. I personally use a modified method of "sleep training", which should not be confused with CIO, but often is.

This means, baby is put to bed awake and prepared (talked to softly, a song, a little rocking). Then, I usually rub their tummy after they're snuggled in, and talk to them softly for a minute. Pacifier or thumb-either way is ok, if that helps them.

Then I walk out quiety, saying "nighty night"

If they fuss, I wait 3 or 4 minutes, then go back and rub, whisper, replace pacifier.

If they fuss, I wait a little longer, repeat...

Keep doing until baby sleeps.

When they wake, I always, always go in and talk to them before I get them up. "Hi...dck...you are awake! Are you ready to get up?" I never pick them up crying, but soothe them with my voice and gentle rubbing first. Once they've calmed, I pick them up.

For over 20 some years of working with young children, this has worked for me. With the exception of a few part-timers, I have had many happy sleepers in my home.
I do this, too. I can't tell you how many times I have parents say, "Good Luck with this one, he never naps." Within a week, I have that same child sleeping for two hours a day, minimum.

Sometimes babies fuss and cry. As long as I know their needs have been met, I let them sort it out for a little bit before I intervene in any way. Works every time!
Reply
Leigh 10:23 AM 05-09-2013
Originally Posted by Heidi:
So...I have to ask a question of those folks who are super anti-CIO.

How many minutes would you find it acceptable for an infant to cry. Lets say, a 6 mo, to be specific.

I'm not being argumentative or snarky at all.

Just trying to find out what people are comfortable with. If a baby cries for 2 minutes, is that too long? 5, 10, 15? It doesn't matter the reason; they are hungry, tired, whatever. Your busy changing a diaper, feeding someone else, going potty, etc.

I'm thinking that even attachment or no-cry parenting acknowledges that a baby must cry momentarily at the least? Or is the theory that one would be so in-tuned with the baby that you anticipate it's every need?
To answer your question: I don't ever leave a child cry longer than absolutely necessary...if I am changing a diaper, I finish what I am doing and then address the needs of the baby. I am NOT being preachy-I just am trying to treat that child as if it were my own, which is what the kids' parents expect of me. I NEVER left my own child to cry on his own. It's scary for babies-we are all they have. They are completely helpless. If picking them up makes them comfortable, then I do it. I do not want to be the one responsible for a child developing an attachment disorder from being ignored. (Yes, a little dramatic, but I actually DO worry about it!)
Reply
Leigh 10:28 AM 05-09-2013
Originally Posted by Heidi:
I REALLY wish people would stop suggesting that everyone is PRO CIO if they are not willing to carry babies around every moment. There is an enormous difference between carrying constantly and just laying a baby in bed and walking away, leaving them to cry for hours on end. I don't think there is a single person here that would do that.

Sorry...don't mean to be snarky! It's just that this conversation comes up once a week or so, and someone always suggests carrying. I have 3 infants and am 48 years old. Even at 28 I couldn't carry all 3 at once.

Yes, a baby cries because they have a need. But that need is not necessarily to be carried around like a sack of potatoes. That need might be hunger, discomfort, overstimulation, being tired, or just plain needing to cry. We all need to cry now and then; I sure do!

When I cry, the last thing I want is someone telling me to stop. What I want is someone telling me that they love me, they will support me, and that they are here to help me.

I don't "do" CIO. But within 2 weeks of being in my program, I could bet you big money that all my kiddos go to sleep happily, with rarely a fuss. They see their beds as comfortable, happy places to cuddle and sleep. Same as me at the end of a long day...
And I really wish people wouldn't put words in my mouth. I NEVER said that "that everyone is PRO CIO if they are not willing to carry babies around every moment". I simply answered the question honestly with my own feelings. I treat these babies the way that I would expect my own to be treated by a provider. If I knew that a provider was leaving my own child to cry it out, it would be the last day my child had there. I am NOT into attachment parenting, I DO encourage children to learn how to self soothe. I would never leave a child to cry, though. It's just not right, in my opinion. I also foster parent...I have seen way too many children whose parents didn't attend to their needs as infants-no child deserves to grow up with problems like that, so I do my very best to avoid letting a baby cry. Sometimes, there is one on my lap, and I've got another in the bouncer rocking them with my foot, but I try to make sure that they know that they are not alone and that someone is there for them.
Reply
Heidi 12:48 PM 05-09-2013
Originally Posted by Leigh:
And I really wish people wouldn't put words in my mouth. I NEVER said that "that everyone is PRO CIO if they are not willing to carry babies around every moment". I simply answered the question honestly with my own feelings. I treat these babies the way that I would expect my own to be treated by a provider. If I knew that a provider was leaving my own child to cry it out, it would be the last day my child had there. I am NOT into attachment parenting, I DO encourage children to learn how to self soothe. I would never leave a child to cry, though. It's just not right, in my opinion. I also foster parent...I have seen way too many children whose parents didn't attend to their needs as infants-no child deserves to grow up with problems like that, so I do my very best to avoid letting a baby cry. Sometimes, there is one on my lap, and I've got another in the bouncer rocking them with my foot, but I try to make sure that they know that they are not alone and that someone is there for them.
I do not do "cry-it-out". I see it as inhumane treatment. Babies cry when they have a need that hasn't been met. Meet the need, and the baby doesn't cry. I couldn't live with myself if I just laid an infant down and walked away. How do I make it work? I just pick the baby up and carry him/her with me until I have the time to meet his/her need. A baby carrier is a big help.

I was more-or-less responding to this (bolded above), but also to the repetative nature of this particular conversation. As I said, I wasn't trying to be snarky or single you out in any way. Sorry if it came off that way. I've been here a long time, and if you read my other 3000 posts (lol), you'll see that's not how I roll.

So, I was saying that because the debate is so...well...old. Every week or 2, someone says "I can't get baby to sleep but I don't do CIO". Honestly, NO ONE here does CIO. We all know it's inhumane!

When it boils down to it, there are 4 options.

We've already ruled out option 1: CIO...every one of us.
Option 2 is the "attachment" style, carrying baby, rocking, singing, pacing.
Option 3 is the non-attachment close second...washing machine, driving around, swing, etc. Not even an option, really, because in most states, dc babies must sleep in a bed, not a car-seat or swing.
Option 4 is some version of sleep-training. To me, this is the most realistic, practical, kind, and long-term solution. It can be done gently and with love, and in the long run, both the child and the caregiver are happier for it.

So, on that note, welcome to the forum! You'll find we have quite a few of these debates, some disagreements, and the occasional misunderstandings and hurt feelings. You'll also find support and ideas, and probably have a few of your own.
Reply
EntropyControlSpecialist 12:49 PM 05-09-2013
I read this and found it to be interesting.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/...-crying-it-out
Reply
EntropyControlSpecialist 12:52 PM 05-09-2013
Originally Posted by Leigh:
And I really wish people wouldn't put words in my mouth. I NEVER said that "that everyone is PRO CIO if they are not willing to carry babies around every moment". I simply answered the question honestly with my own feelings. I treat these babies the way that I would expect my own to be treated by a provider. If I knew that a provider was leaving my own child to cry it out, it would be the last day my child had there. I am NOT into attachment parenting, I DO encourage children to learn how to self soothe. I would never leave a child to cry, though. It's just not right, in my opinion. I also foster parent...I have seen way too many children whose parents didn't attend to their needs as infants-no child deserves to grow up with problems like that, so I do my very best to avoid letting a baby cry. Sometimes, there is one on my lap, and I've got another in the bouncer rocking them with my foot, but I try to make sure that they know that they are not alone and that someone is there for them.
I recently learned from my son's biological family that he was "GREAT" at self soothing from "very early on." Upon hearing that, my son's attachment issues made even more sense to me. His mother didn't like him expressing any sort of need, it all made her angry.
I know how my son was treated because he is able to voice that to me. He has recollections from ages 4 to 15.
He is now 17 and we are working tirelessly to help him through everything. Just my own personal experience.

I have enjoyed reading what everyone else's opinions are and enjoyed reading the linked blog as well.
Reply
Heidi 12:59 PM 05-09-2013
Originally Posted by EntropyControlSpecialist:
I read this and found it to be interesting.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/...-crying-it-out
Now I'm going to cry...

No, seriously, I am NOT saying anybody should be letting a baby CIO! My point is NO ONE HERE DOES THAT (to my knowledge).

I wish there was a study where someone timed how many minutes over 1 year a "no-cry" infant actually cried in comparison to a "give em a chance to self-soothe first" infant. I bet it's dang close in the long run.

I'd venture to guess that the no-cry baby would cry slightly less in the first 6 months, but more in the 2nd, and it would all equal out in the end. Heck, too bad we can't do a 2 or 4 year study.
Reply
preschoolteacher 01:10 PM 05-09-2013
Originally Posted by Heidi:
Babies ARE smart!!!!


4 mo who is not a "good" sleeper (hasn't learned any self-soothing), is a good example. Over the past few days, I have been helping her (gently) learn to go to sleep without rocking and singing a specific song (not sharing name in order to stay anonymous).

Yesterday before nap, I changed her diaper, and began singing the song. She looked me straight in the eye and CRIED. She KNEW what was comming next just because at home, they sing her that song, walk around, and hold her paci in her mouth for her until she falls asleep. Then, they "sneak" her into bed.

I say: Think it about it from her perspective for a second. First of all, it's disrespectful, IMO, to "fool" her like that. Also, she falls asleep cuddles and sung to, and then wakes up alone. Confusing and maybe a little scary.

I put her to bed, talked to her soothingly, gave her the top of her blanket to hold (she likes to hold a finger, and this is as close as I could give her), put her paci in. Then I said 'Night night" and left. She fussed, so I went in again (2 minutes), replaced paci, smiled, and left. Rinse and repeat 2x, once after 4 minutes, once after 6 or so (estimate). Then it was quiet, and she slept for 3 hours without a peep. When she woke up she was smiling at me like "FINALLY!".

So, that was 12 minutes of work, vs. the "5 minutes" I was supposed to walk and sing to her, all the while leaving any other children in the group unattended.

That is NOT CIO, yet she was supported and given the message that she is a capable little human being.
Sounds like a great way to fall asleep, in my opinion. I like how you worked with her!
Reply
preschoolteacher 01:16 PM 05-09-2013
Originally Posted by Heidi:
So, I was saying that because the debate is so...well...old. Every week or 2, someone says "I can't get baby to sleep but I don't do CIO". Honestly, NO ONE here does CIO. We all know it's inhumane!
The reason I was thinking about CIO in the first place was actually because it's a pretty popular thing to do right now among the moms I know. I'm in several mom groups in my city, and I was really surprised to be the only one out of 10 who was not 100% in favor of CIO when it came up at our last meeting. By CIO, I mean babies who are crying for 1-2 hours at the beginning of the night and any time they wake up. Even our instructor was supportive and encouraging of this...
Reply
Heidi 01:23 PM 05-09-2013
Originally Posted by preschoolteacher:
The reason I was thinking about CIO in the first place was actually because it's a pretty popular thing to do right now among the moms I know. I'm in several mom groups in my city, and I was really surprised to be the only one out of 10 who was not 100% in favor of CIO when it came up at our last meeting. By CIO, I mean babies who are crying for 1-2 hours at the beginning of the night and any time they wake up. Even our instructor was supportive and encouraging of this...
HOLY CRAP!

Ok, thanks for explaining that.

I read your response to another post, and I love you ideas. Sorry if my responses started something or got us off on the wrong foot.
Reply
MarinaVanessa 02:01 PM 05-09-2013
Originally Posted by Heidi:
There have been numerous debates here about CIO. I personally use a modified method of "sleep training", which should not be confused with CIO, but often is.

This means, baby is put to bed awake and prepared (talked to softly, a song, a little rocking). Then, I usually rub their tummy after they're snuggled in, and talk to them softly for a minute. Pacifier or thumb-either way is ok, if that helps them.

Then I walk out quiety, saying "nighty night"

If they fuss, I wait 3 or 4 minutes, then go back and rub, whisper, replace pacifier.

If they fuss, I wait a little longer, repeat...

Keep doing until baby sleeps.

When they wake, I always, always go in and talk to them before I get them up. "Hi...dck...you are awake! Are you ready to get up?" I never pick them up crying, but soothe them with my voice and gentle rubbing first. Once they've calmed, I pick them up.

For over 20 some years of working with young children, this has worked for me. With the exception of a few part-timers, I have had many happy sleepers in my home.
This is pretty much how I handle infants in general too ... nap time or not.
Reply
Play Care 02:25 PM 05-09-2013
Originally Posted by Heidi:
I do not do "cry-it-out". I see it as inhumane treatment. Babies cry when they have a need that hasn't been met. Meet the need, and the baby doesn't cry. I couldn't live with myself if I just laid an infant down and walked away. How do I make it work? I just pick the baby up and carry him/her with me until I have the time to meet his/her need. A baby carrier is a big help.

I was more-or-less responding to this (bolded above), but also to the repetative nature of this particular conversation. As I said, I wasn't trying to be snarky or single you out in any way. Sorry if it came off that way. I've been here a long time, and if you read my other 3000 posts (lol), you'll see that's not how I roll.

So, I was saying that because the debate is so...well...old. Every week or 2, someone says "I can't get baby to sleep but I don't do CIO". Honestly, NO ONE here does CIO. We all know it's inhumane!

When it boils down to it, there are 4 options.

We've already ruled out option 1: CIO...every one of us.
Option 2 is the "attachment" style, carrying baby, rocking, singing, pacing.
Option 3 is the non-attachment close second...washing machine, driving around, swing, etc. Not even an option, really, because in most states, dc babies must sleep in a bed, not a car-seat or swing.
Option 4 is some version of sleep-training. To me, this is the most realistic, practical, kind, and long-term solution. It can be done gently and with love, and in the long run, both the child and the caregiver are happier for it.

So, on that note, welcome to the forum! You'll find we have quite a few of these debates, some disagreements, and the occasional misunderstandings and hurt feelings. You'll also find support and ideas, and probably have a few of your own.

Reply
EntropyControlSpecialist 02:58 PM 05-09-2013
Originally Posted by Heidi:
Now I'm going to cry...

No, seriously, I am NOT saying anybody should be letting a baby CIO! My point is NO ONE HERE DOES THAT (to my knowledge).

I wish there was a study where someone timed how many minutes over 1 year a "no-cry" infant actually cried in comparison to a "give em a chance to self-soothe first" infant. I bet it's dang close in the long run.

I'd venture to guess that the no-cry baby would cry slightly less in the first 6 months, but more in the 2nd, and it would all equal out in the end. Heck, too bad we can't do a 2 or 4 year study.
I actually read a study on that as well and I have no idea where it is! Basically, infants that the person writing it said "self soothe" wake up less and cry out less than infants that are rocked/bounced/held to sleep at 6 months+. It went on to say that those infants turned into toddlers/preschoolers who woke up seeking comfort until about their 4th year of life.
Reply
preschoolteacher 07:24 PM 05-09-2013
Originally Posted by Heidi:
Sorry if my responses started something or got us off on the wrong foot.
Not at all! I've noticed and liked your ideas on other posts, too.
Reply
Heidi 07:37 PM 05-09-2013
Originally Posted by EntropyControlSpecialist:
I actually read a study on that as well and I have no idea where it is! Basically, infants that the person writing it said "self soothe" wake up less and cry out less than infants that are rocked/bounced/held to sleep at 6 months+. It went on to say that those infants turned into toddlers/preschoolers who woke up seeking comfort until about their 4th year of life.
ok...not sure how I am reading this...

The self-soothers woke up until their 4th year, or the rocked/bounced tykes did?

My own experience has been that my self-soothers rarely woke up (although I did have a sleep-walker...lots of ha ha moments..). Those parents I know who were rockers, etc, told many stories of night-wakings well into school-age. Did the study (as you remember) show otherwise?

I know you have special experience with your son, and I understand what you said about him basically being abandoned as an infant to "Self-soothe". I PROMISE you that what goes on here is very different. I can't imagine your son's birth-mother was much warmer and fuzzier during waking hours, either.
Reply
Tags:cio, cry it out, nap - crying
Reply Up