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  #1  
Old 01-14-2011, 06:03 PM
prioritizepre-k
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Show me. Show me the way. Teach me. Show me any longitudinal study on preschool education and how it results in ANY significant long term difference in the measurable outcomes of kids in reading, math, science, writing, etc. Core academic subjects. Not little bits of some reading scores... but fully in reading, writing, math, social studies, science. Show me how kids who have preschool graduate at a higher rate, have less crimal activity, have higher grades beyond second grade, have less teen pregnancy, have higher gradution rates in college, score higher in any grade level beyond second grade in standardized tests.

Show me how that happens because I can't find it. Show me a study that is not poor kids and disadvantaged kids and show me what preschool does for them. If we are going to put billions of dollars into it then we got to get SOMETHING out of it. Something in the way of EDUCATION.

Until then I will hold steadfast that we need to STOP taking research from poor kids and apply it to the reasoning for early education for the rest of the population.

They won't be able to show you. All of the studies advocates base their claims from were small scale studies done on the extremely disadvantaged children. They take the benefits of these small scale programs that were done decades ago and try to apply the benefits to the larger population. The advocates are not representing the entire picture and are cherry picking the benefits. I agree with you and am happy to see there are others who understand it. To learn more visit www.prioritizepre-k.com

Last edited by Michael; 01-15-2011 at 02:14 PM.
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  #2  
Old 01-14-2011, 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Blackcat31 View Post
Does this count? I have not been reading up on it but I googled it and found this; http://nieer.org/resources/factsheets/13.pdf or http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...1116081424.htm
Pew Charitable Trusts are the largest advocates for "universal pre-k" in the nation. For the past 10 years they have spent millions of dollars setting up organizations, conduction research and publicizing their results in an effort to campaign for government funded universal preschool programs. NIEER is one of the organizations set up by PEW and their entire focus is to lobby for government funded preschool. Their studies are hardly objective.

All studies, even those cited by the advocates prove the preschool programs benefit disadvantaged children. These advocates are taking the results and applying them to the larger population. There is NO PROOF that these programs benefit middle or upper class children.

To learn more visit www.prioritizepre-k.com
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  #3  
Old 01-15-2011, 04:54 AM
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Originally Posted by prioritizepre-k View Post
Pew Charitable Trusts are the largest advocates for "universal pre-k" in the nation. For the past 10 years they have spent millions of dollars setting up organizations, conduction research and publicizing their results in an effort to campaign for government funded universal preschool programs. NIEER is one of the organizations set up by PEW and their entire focus is to lobby for government funded preschool. Their studies are hardly objective.

All studies, even those cited by the advocates prove the preschool programs benefit disadvantaged children. These advocates are taking the results and applying them to the larger population. There is NO PROOF that these programs benefit middle or upper class children.

To learn more visit www.prioritizepre-k.com
I'm glad to see you joined the conversation. I would be even more specific with this: There is NO PROOF that these programs benefit middle or upper class children. and discuss the large lower middle class and the upper middle class.

I looked over your site and thsi article is very good because it focuses on Oklahoma where a lot of TALK about their success is used to bolster the need for UPK. They are a really good example of when the research is taken out of their hands and put into standardized testing that they fail miserably. We have to be cautious with the research and see WHO is funding it and what their agenda is. Standardized testing is a good way to take the emotion out of it and just look at the facts: http://www.prioritizepre-k.com/2010/...hen-it-counts/

and video

http://www.newson6.com/Global/story.asp?S=13533552

and for our new Govenor just sworn in yesterday: http://www.prioritizepre-k.com/categ...e-states/iowa/

Can I ask you one thing? Why is it that there is little to no discussion about parental responsibility when it comes to preschool education? I don't mean just paying for preschool but actually DOING preschool with their own children. We seem to miss the mark when it comes to sending the message to parents that THEY can educate their infants, toddlers, and preschool children. If we assume that Home Providers who are statistically not educated as teachers can BE teachers then why not extend that ideology to parents themselves. Free preschool can happen right under your roof. I would love to see public monies going into evening and weekend classes where parents can come to learn how to teach their own children. Now THAT would be money well spent.
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  #4  
Old 01-15-2011, 06:46 AM
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Originally Posted by nannyde View Post
I'm glad to see you joined the conversation. I would be even more specific with this: There is NO PROOF that these programs benefit middle or upper class children. and discuss the large lower middle class and the upper middle class.

I looked over your site and thsi article is very good because it focuses on Oklahoma where a lot of TALK about their success is used to bolster the need for UPK. They are a really good example of when the research is taken out of their hands and put into standardized testing that they fail miserably. We have to be cautious with the research and see WHO is funding it and what their agenda is. Standardized testing is a good way to take the emotion out of it and just look at the facts: http://www.prioritizepre-k.com/2010/...hen-it-counts/

and video

http://www.newson6.com/Global/story.asp?S=13533552
and for our new Govenor just sworn in yesterday: http://www.prioritizepre-k.com/categ...e-states/iowa/

Can I ask you one thing? Why is it that there is little to no discussion about parental responsibility when it comes to preschool education? I don't mean just paying for preschool but actually DOING preschool with their own children. We seem to miss the mark when it comes to sending the message to parents that THEY can educate their infants, toddlers, and preschool children. If we assume that Home Providers who are statistically not educated as teachers can BE teachers then why not extend that ideology to parents themselves. Free preschool can happen right under your roof. I would love to see public monies going into evening and weekend classes where parents can come to learn how to teach their own children. Now THAT would be money well spent.
I focus on preschool because I am the owner of a preschool. I do believe preschool is beneficial. I do not believe the government are the only one's who can do it well. With that said, yes i believe parents can teach their children the basics too. The only thing homeschooling won't accomplish is all of the social benefits the children receive by being in a classroom with a few of their peers. Taking turns, sharing, not taking too much of the teachers attention. etc. These are important skills they will need as they enter a Kindergarten classroom with 20+ kids.

I find if insulting when the advocates say parents can't identify a quality preschool. That is a load of cr-- These advocates do not give parents enough credit and yes they are trying to take kids away from their families at too young an age. The most influential people in a child's life are their parents. This should be celebrated. Our government should not be trying to interfere with the upbringing of our children.

www.prioritizepre-k.com
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  #5  
Old 01-15-2011, 07:09 AM
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Originally Posted by nannyde View Post
I'm glad to see you joined the conversation. I would be even more specific with this: There is NO PROOF that these programs benefit middle or upper class children. and discuss the large lower middle class and the upper middle class.

I looked over your site and thsi article is very good because it focuses on Oklahoma where a lot of TALK about their success is used to bolster the need for UPK. They are a really good example of when the research is taken out of their hands and put into standardized testing that they fail miserably. We have to be cautious with the research and see WHO is funding it and what their agenda is. Standardized testing is a good way to take the emotion out of it and just look at the facts: http://www.prioritizepre-k.com/2010/...hen-it-counts/

and video

http://www.newson6.com/Global/story.asp?S=13533552

and for our new Govenor just sworn in yesterday: http://www.prioritizepre-k.com/categ...e-states/iowa/

Can I ask you one thing? Why is it that there is little to no discussion about parental responsibility when it comes to preschool education? I don't mean just paying for preschool but actually DOING preschool with their own children. We seem to miss the mark when it comes to sending the message to parents that THEY can educate their infants, toddlers, and preschool children. If we assume that Home Providers who are statistically not educated as teachers can BE teachers then why not extend that ideology to parents themselves. Free preschool can happen right under your roof. I would love to see public monies going into evening and weekend classes where parents can come to learn how to teach their own children. Now THAT would be money well spent.
Who would go to the classes? They only offer things like that at "no cost" to the one demographic who doesn't want it. The only reason preschool gets kids in is bc it's free childcare to people who typically don't have jobs AND the bus picks the kids up. The effort the parents put in is worth the reward. The kids who get into preschool here are the ones who get the lowest scores on the entry test. They get the lowest scores even though they typically have a parent at home. I assure you it's not bc the parents need a class on how to teach colors or letters. It's bc they don't WANT to. It's a nice idea though.
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Old 01-15-2011, 07:37 AM
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There are parents who wouldn't be able to choose or identify a quality preschool. They wouldn't be able to identify a hole n the ground. Have you worked with head start or public prek? There is proof
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  #7  
Old 01-15-2011, 08:17 AM
prioritizepre-k
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Originally Posted by QualiTcare View Post
There are parents who wouldn't be able to choose or identify a quality preschool. They wouldn't be able to identify a hole n the ground. Have you worked with head start or public prek? There is proof
First you need to define what quality is. Next you have to ask - are parents unable to choose a quality program or are there no quality programs available to them because they live in rural areas or can't afford to pay for it?

This is why it is so very important our government prioritize preschool funding to those children most in need. Parents should have a choice when it comes to childcare and early childhood education. Some prefer to work and send their kids to daycare. Some choose to stay at home and send them to 1/2 day educational programs. Others chose to home school. That's OK, we should be allowed our beliefs. To make preschool universal and institutionalize our children at 3 & 4 is not benefiting them. Those benefiting from this government intervention are high paid teachers, administrators, researcher, lobbyist and special interest groups.

Children should come before special interests and politics.

www.prioritizepre-k.com
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  #8  
Old 01-15-2011, 08:21 AM
prioritizepre-k
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Originally Posted by nannyde View Post
I'm glad to see you joined the conversation. I would be even more specific with this: There is NO PROOF that these programs benefit middle or upper class children. and discuss the large lower middle class and the upper middle class.

I looked over your site and thsi article is very good because it focuses on Oklahoma where a lot of TALK about their success is used to bolster the need for UPK. They are a really good example of when the research is taken out of their hands and put into standardized testing that they fail miserably. We have to be cautious with the research and see WHO is funding it and what their agenda is. Standardized testing is a good way to take the emotion out of it and just look at the facts: http://www.prioritizepre-k.com/2010/...hen-it-counts/

and video

http://www.newson6.com/Global/story.asp?S=13533552
and for our new Govenor just sworn in yesterday: http://www.prioritizepre-k.com/categ...e-states/iowa/

Can I ask you one thing? Why is it that there is little to no discussion about parental responsibility when it comes to preschool education? I don't mean just paying for preschool but actually DOING preschool with their own children. We seem to miss the mark when it comes to sending the message to parents that THEY can educate their infants, toddlers, and preschool children. If we assume that Home Providers who are statistically not educated as teachers can BE teachers then why not extend that ideology to parents themselves. Free preschool can happen right under your roof. I would love to see public monies going into evening and weekend classes where parents can come to learn how to teach their own children. Now THAT would be money well spent.
nannyde: you seem very passionate about the issue. Visit this site and really get yourself worked up. lol

www.investinginkids.net

This is a man who started a blog to promote his book Investing in Kids. His book was funded by NIEER/PEW. This is another attempt at rationalizing publicly funded pre-k.

Have fun

www.prioritizepre-k.com
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  #9  
Old 01-15-2011, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by prioritizepre-k View Post
First you need to define what quality is. Next you have to ask - are parents unable to choose a quality program or are there no quality programs available to them because they live in rural areas or can't afford to pay for it?

This is why it is so very important our government prioritize preschool funding to those children most in need. Parents should have a choice when it comes to childcare and early childhood education. Some prefer to work and send their kids to daycare. Some choose to stay at home and send them to 1/2 day educational programs. Others chose to home school. That's OK, we should be allowed our beliefs. To make preschool universal and institutionalize our children at 3 & 4 is not benefiting them. Those benefiting from this government intervention are high paid teachers, administrators, researcher, lobbyist and special interest groups.

Children should come before special interests and politics.

www.prioritizepre-k.com
A quality preschool would prepare children for kindergarten and not by teaching them about dinosaurs for a year. They have to know what they're expected to know and learn in kindergarten according to the standards which I'd be willing to bet 90 percent or more of these self proclaimed preschool teachers have NO IDEA what the standards are, where to find them, how to cover and more importantly ASSESS (objectively) their progress throughout the year. They don't care about who needs it most, they care about who has the cash to pay for it. The preschools ran by the DOE and head start are the only ones who DO consider which children need it most and unfortunately there are way more applicants than spaces so we have all these kids who still need it desperately and might not be able to go bc their mom makes "too much money" even if she only makes 3 dollars over the limit. She can't afford a private "preschool" so little jonny misses out. those would be the kids to benefit from schools taking on pre k.

Last edited by QualiTcare; 01-15-2011 at 09:39 AM.
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  #10  
Old 01-15-2011, 09:59 AM
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prioritizepre-k prioritizepre-k is offline
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Originally Posted by QualiTcare View Post
A quality preschool would prepare children for kindergarten and not by teaching them about dinosaurs for a year. They have to know what they're expected to know and learn in kindergarten according to the standards which I'd be willing to bet 90 percent or more of these self proclaimed preschool teachers have NO IDEA what the standards are, where to find them, how to cover and more importantly ASSESS (objectively) their progress throughout the year. They don't care about who needs it most, they care about who has the cash to pay for it. The preschools ran by the DOE and head start are the only ones who DO consider which children need it most and unfortunately there are way more applicants than spaces so we have all these kids who still need it desperately and might not be able to go bc their mom makes "too much money" even if she only makes 3 dollars over the limit. She can't afford a private "preschool" so little jonny misses out. those would be the kids to benefit from schools taking on pre k.
I agree, private preschools should have learning objectives and be able to assess what the children are learning.

I disagree about most else you say. In my area there are many childcare/preschools run by highly educated/qualified people. "Universal" pre-k in my area is NOT universal. Children are chosen by lottery, regardless of economic need. Those children most in need can get shut out. They have been trying to institute a "universal" pre-k program for 15 years. This DOE isn't concerned that those most in need can be shut out, otherwise they'd be advocating for prioritizing the money. They care about holding on to their own jobs.

We all have our interests and motives. Yes private school owners look out for the profit margin. Teachers unions look out for members employment, salaries and benefits and State Education workers look out for their own jobs. The fact, Head Start is a prime example of a government program gone out of control. Unlike the public sector, the private sector is accountable to the people who pay the bill. The private sector is responsible to a higher standard, the paying public. When public programs aren't achieving benefits, they just ask for more money and raise taxes.

I want to make one more note, I too do not want little johnny to miss out on a preschool experience because he can't afford it. That is why we oppose universal pre-k. Our government should prioritize preschool funding on economic need.
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Old 01-15-2011, 10:13 AM
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Thank you QCare
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Old 01-15-2011, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by prioritizepre-k View Post
I agree, private preschools should have learning objectives and be able to assess what the children are learning.

I disagree about most else you say. In my area there are many childcare/preschools run by highly educated/qualified people. "Universal" pre-k in my area is NOT universal. Children are chosen by lottery, regardless of economic need. Those children most in need can get shut out. They have been trying to institute a "universal" pre-k program for 15 years. This DOE isn't concerned that those most in need can be shut out, otherwise they'd be advocating for prioritizing the money. They care about holding on to their own jobs.

We all have our interests and motives. Yes private school owners look out for the profit margin. Teachers unions look out for members employment, salaries and benefits and State Education workers look out for their own jobs. The fact, Head Start is a prime example of a government program gone out of control. Unlike the public sector, the private sector is accountable to the people who pay the bill. The private sector is responsible to a higher standard, the paying public. When public programs aren't achieving benefits, they just ask for more money and raise taxes.

I want to make one more note, I too do not want little johnny to miss out on a preschool experience because he can't afford it. That is why we oppose universal pre-k. Our government should prioritize preschool funding on economic need.
as of now, the children who qualify for "free" preschool ARE enrolled based on economic need. ask anyone who has ever tried to get their child into preschool and were told they make too much money. at least that's generally the case.

i don't doubt there are some private preschools that are owned by qualified people, but as we were talking about - only the people who have the $$ typically have the access to those preschools. the other children have access to preschools supplied to them in a list based on who accepts child care subsidies. as usual, it is the middle class and their children who get screwed on the deal.
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Old 01-15-2011, 11:16 AM
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as of now, the children who qualify for "free" preschool ARE enrolled based on economic need. ask anyone who has ever tried to get their child into preschool and were told they make too much money. at least that's generally the case.

i don't doubt there are some private preschools that are owned by qualified people, but as we were talking about - only the people who have the $$ typically have the access to those preschools. the other children have access to preschools supplied to them in a list based on who accepts child care subsidies. as usual, it is the middle class and their children who get screwed on the deal.
That is not true in all states. In my state, enrollment is NOT based on economic need. The program is not universal and those most in need CAN AND ARE being shut out of programs.

Re the middle class - we all need to make choices in our life. We choose to have children, we choose to spend our money in many ways, big cars, big homes, vacations, pedicures, manicure, movies etc. The middle class does not get screwed. They make choices. Our government should not be creating middle class entitlement programs. They should be supporting families who, due to various circumstances, find themselves without choice because they are struggling just to put food on the table. Middle class people need to prioritize and ask themselves - do I get pedicures, drive a big gas guzzling suv, go on vacations or provide preschool to my child.

That is the reality of what is happening in my area. Those that can well afford to pay for preschool are getting into programs while others are shut out. Many are going to the gym, getting pedicures, shopping etc while their children are attending these programs that you and I are paying for. At what point does government entitlement end and personal responsibility begin?

Districts can't even afford to maintain their K-12 programs - we shouldn't be putting more of a burden on them by expanding their responsibilities. We should be helping them to maintain what they have.
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Old 01-15-2011, 11:45 AM
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nannyde nannyde is offline
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Originally Posted by prioritizepre-k View Post
nannyde: you seem very passionate about the issue. Visit this site and really get yourself worked up. lol

www.investinginkids.net

This is a man who started a blog to promote his book Investing in Kids. His book was funded by NIEER/PEW. This is another attempt at rationalizing publicly funded pre-k.

Have fun

www.prioritizepre-k.com
I'll put that in the q

I found this link on your site: http://www.hoover.org/publications/books/8138



I likey Mr Finn Jr

I wish he could come to my house and see about my kids. There's an answer to this and it's not so complicated after all.

I said it before. I'll say it again:

Kids need an early childhood of close proximal supervision, excellent nutrition, free play, outdoor exercise, GOOD DEEP SLEEP, discipline, and affection. They need good CARE. If they have an early childhood of good care they will be great students. Good care CAN include "education" but it will not further them academically.

At the age of five/six the kids are ready for academics. For hundreds of years we have understood this is the age to begin their "education". Nothing has changed with this generation of students. They aren't more evolved at two/three/four then they were a hundred years ago. You can't cheat mother nature. We are humans and human babies and toddlers don't prosper from early "education". They prosper from good care in the areas I listed above.

We HAVE to get back to the basics. We aren't doing better after a couple of decades of "early education". We are failing our children because we aren't supporting what REALLY matters in raising quality kids.
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Old 01-15-2011, 11:51 AM
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I'll put that in the q

I found this link on your site: http://www.hoover.org/publications/books/8138



I likey Mr Finn Jr

I wish he could come to my house and see about my kids. There's an answer to this and it's not so complicated after all.

I said it before. I'll say it again:

Kids need an early childhood of close proximal supervision, excellent nutrition, free play, outdoor exercise, GOOD DEEP SLEEP, discipline, and affection. They need good CARE. If they have an early childhood of good care they will be great students. Good care CAN include "education" but it will not further them academically.

At the age of five/six the kids are ready for academics. For hundreds of years we have understood this is the age to begin their "education". Nothing has changed with this generation of students. They aren't more evolved at two/three/four then they were a hundred years ago. You can't cheat mother nature. We are humans and human babies and toddlers don't prosper from early "education". They prosper from good care in the areas I listed above.

We HAVE to get back to the basics. We aren't doing better after a couple of decades of "early education". We are failing our children because we aren't supporting what REALLY matters in raising quality kids.
Chester Finn is our hero. We were sooo excited when we discovered him.
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Old 01-15-2011, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by QualiTcare View Post
as of now, the children who qualify for "free" preschool ARE enrolled based on economic need. ask anyone who has ever tried to get their child into preschool and were told they make too much money. at least that's generally the case.

i don't doubt there are some private preschools that are owned by qualified people, but as we were talking about - only the people who have the $$ typically have the access to those preschools. the other children have access to preschools supplied to them in a list based on who accepts child care subsidies. as usual, it is the middle class and their children who get screwed on the deal.
Qual

I think he's in New York.... the reference to the lottery system makes me think that.
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Old 01-15-2011, 12:11 PM
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Qual

I think he's in New York.... the reference to the lottery system makes me think that.
she and yes i'm from new york
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Old 01-15-2011, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by nannyde View Post
I'll put that in the q

I found this link on your site: http://www.hoover.org/publications/books/8138



I likey Mr Finn Jr

I wish he could come to my house and see about my kids. There's an answer to this and it's not so complicated after all.

I said it before. I'll say it again:

Kids need an early childhood of close proximal supervision, excellent nutrition, free play, outdoor exercise, GOOD DEEP SLEEP, discipline, and affection. They need good CARE. If they have an early childhood of good care they will be great students. Good care CAN include "education" but it will not further them academically.

At the age of five/six the kids are ready for academics. For hundreds of years we have understood this is the age to begin their "education". Nothing has changed with this generation of students. They aren't more evolved at two/three/four then they were a hundred years ago. You can't cheat mother nature. We are humans and human babies and toddlers don't prosper from early "education". They prosper from good care in the areas I listed above.

We HAVE to get back to the basics. We aren't doing better after a couple of decades of "early education". We are failing our children because we aren't supporting what REALLY matters in raising quality kids
.
Is there a like button?
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Old 01-15-2011, 01:00 PM
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Is there a like button?
I've asked the same thing!
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Old 01-15-2011, 01:59 PM
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That is not true in all states. In my state, enrollment is NOT based on economic need. The program is not universal and those most in need CAN AND ARE being shut out of programs.

Re the middle class - we all need to make choices in our life. We choose to have children, we choose to spend our money in many ways, big cars, big homes, vacations, pedicures, manicure, movies etc. The middle class does not get screwed. They make choices. Our government should not be creating middle class entitlement programs. They should be supporting families who, due to various circumstances, find themselves without choice because they are struggling just to put food on the table. Middle class people need to prioritize and ask themselves - do I get pedicures, drive a big gas guzzling suv, go on vacations or provide preschool to my child.

That is the reality of what is happening in my area. Those that can well afford to pay for preschool are getting into programs while others are shut out. Many are going to the gym, getting pedicures, shopping etc while their children are attending these programs that you and I are paying for. At what point does government entitlement end and personal responsibility begin?Districts can't even afford to maintain their K-12 programs - we shouldn't be putting more of a burden on them by expanding their responsibilities. We should be helping them to maintain what they have.
i just find it hilarious that you direct that toward the middle class. i personally find it disgusting that every female in tennessee who gets knocked up and doesn't work gets free healthcare for the rest of their lives practically along with food stamps, housing, PRE-K, etc. etc. and countless WORKING people can't go to the hospital when they're really, really sick because they can't afford insurance. they don't need to work, why would they? they're better off NOT working. they're not REALLY poor "due to various circumstances." most of them are shacked up with a boyfriend who works and they just don't report it to the govt. so they can keep getting all the bonuses like free food, free rent, free healthcare.

i don't think expanding pre-k so that children whose parents make "too much" (and YES three dollars over the limit is LITERALLY considered TOO MUCH)would be considered "creating entitlement programs for the middle class."

anyhow, what's the issue? are you afraid your preschool would go under if preschool were offered to all children? school is offered to all children and people still choose to send their children to private schools.

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Old 01-15-2011, 02:14 PM
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Welcome to the Daycare.com Forum prioritizepre-k. I can see your already highly engaged.
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Old 01-15-2011, 02:18 PM
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I've asked the same thing!
i asked michael to make one, but he said he's not smart enough.

juuuust kidding!

i did ask though after i saw ppl say that - like a "kudos" button and he can't.
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Old 01-15-2011, 02:22 PM
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i asked michael to make one, but he said he's not smart enough.

juuuust kidding!

i did ask though after i saw ppl say that - like a "kudos" button and he can't.
Well.........a teenager created a like/unlike button on a social networking site....._____________________________________________

jk.

I think it would be great, but I guess quoting and then laughing or smiley faces works too
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Old 01-15-2011, 02:23 PM
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So you want a "Like" button huh? You girls must spend the rest of your time on Facebook. You can "Subscribe" to a thread that way you will be emailed everytime someone replies or posts on that thread. Otherwise, I think I can put a star system on the thread and you can rate it. What do you think?
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Old 01-15-2011, 02:27 PM
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So you want a "Like" button huh? You girls must spend the rest of your time on Facebook. You can "Subscribe" to a thread that way you will be emailed everytime someone replies or posts on that thread. Otherwise, I think I can put a star system on the thread and you can rate it. What do you think?
I think we are having fun complaining and ran out of stuff to complain about, so we decided to pick on you Michael.

The star system could work, but it's not a like button. It's just not the same
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Old 01-15-2011, 02:44 PM
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So you want a "Like" button huh? You girls must spend the rest of your time on Facebook. You can "Subscribe" to a thread that way you will be emailed everytime someone replies or posts on that thread. Otherwise, I think I can put a star system on the thread and you can rate it. What do you think?
Just a "Nan likey this" button will be fine for me.
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Old 01-15-2011, 03:25 PM
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okay, we are going off topic! i don't want anyone to get upset!
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Old 01-15-2011, 03:26 PM
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okay, we are going off topic! i don't want anyone to get upset!
ugh.....how old are you?
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Old 01-15-2011, 03:28 PM
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ugh.....how old are you?
3...and a half.
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Old 01-15-2011, 04:56 PM
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i just find it hilarious that you direct that toward the middle class. i personally find it disgusting that every female in tennessee who gets knocked up and doesn't work gets free healthcare for the rest of their lives practically along with food stamps, housing, PRE-K, etc. etc. and countless WORKING people can't go to the hospital when they're really, really sick because they can't afford insurance. they don't need to work, why would they? they're better off NOT working. they're not REALLY poor "due to various circumstances." most of them are shacked up with a boyfriend who works and they just don't report it to the govt. so they can keep getting all the bonuses like free food, free rent, free healthcare.

i don't think expanding pre-k so that children whose parents make "too much" (and YES three dollars over the limit is LITERALLY considered TOO MUCH)would be considered "creating entitlement programs for the middle class."

anyhow, what's the issue? are you afraid your preschool would go under if preschool were offered to all children? school is offered to all children and people still choose to send their children to private schools.
I direct my comments about the middle class because I was responding to what you said about the middle class getting screwed.

Yes there are many that take advantage of the system. So because people know how to play the system, we should institute a 50 billion dollar universal pre-k programs. That's no solution.

How about taking the economic parameters and expanding them so we can reach more people.

You ask what is the issue? The issue is we can not afford to run this type of program. Our country is in a economic crisis. Our public schools are cutting programs now because they can't afford them. How do you propose we pay for this extremely expensive, unproven program?
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Old 01-15-2011, 06:08 PM
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Welcome to the Daycare.com Forum prioritizepre-k. I can see your already highly engaged.
Thanks Michael
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Old 01-15-2011, 06:17 PM
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i was referring to this point about the "middle class" which really isn't even a good word: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...g=content;col1


Children and students at all levels would benefit from implementing a universal preschool system. However, the students who would benefit most are the students that are most commonly overlooked, children just above the poverty line. The current system of providing preschool for only some of the nation's children is unacceptable.

Currently, there are primarily two sectors of children who receive a preschool education; those who can afford a private education and those who are beneath the poverty line and qualify for federally funded programs. "Families with incomes just below the national average ($40,000-$50,000) have less access to high-quality preschool than poorer or wealthier families. The wealthy families can afford good private programs. The poorer families are more likely to have access to targeted programs."2 "The need for preschool education does not cease when family incomes exceed the income thresholds for targeted state (and federal) programs. Children in these families constitute a large underserved population and deserve access to high-quality preschool programs."3


And when I asked what the issue was, I meant *your* issue, assuming as a preschool operator that this has something to do with it:

Another benefit of universal preschool is that state and federally funded schools would force private preschools to improve so that they avoid losing students to government funded schools. By demanding quality programs for children ages three to five, extra pressure would be placed on private preschools not only to comply with the standards, but to exceed the standards in order to continue to draw students. Currently, the majority of children who attend private preschools are from middle and upper class socio-economic backgrounds.8 These children's parents have the resources, understand the vital importance of a quality education, and are willing to spend substantial sums of money to ensure this quality education. These parents will continue to pay for preschools providing a superior education.

"These parents will continue to pay for preschool providing a superior education."

i said, "public school is offered to all children and people still choose to send their children to private schools."

same point.

you know it wasn't that long ago in historical terms that this same issue came up concerning kindergarten. yes, schools are cutting programs, but around here it's typically things like "spanish class" for kindergarteners which i think is great since most of them aren't competent in english. what you DON'T see being cut are the football teams. when they start cutting those, then there's a crisis.

it can be argued that the people who can afford preschool should pay for it and it shouldn't be publicly funded, but couldn't the same be said of students in K-12?

it's true that the only real gains in preschool that are documented take place with low income children. it's also true that most research has been focused on programs such as head start, and let's not forget - the govt. funded programs have higher standards for their teachers and even still aren't high enough (compared to k-12). the same thing would happen if pre-k became universal. the standards for teachers would be higher. only THEN could the benefits to middle/upper class be accurately compared.
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Old 01-16-2011, 05:57 AM
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In all the reading I do on "preschool" I always have this nagging notion in the back of my head.

I wonder what REALLY happens when you get a room full of three year olds or four year olds. What do they actually DO during that time.. that three hours four days a week like Head Start has.

Our Head Start does breakfast, lunch, and has outdoor time. They have about a half hour for breakfast, half hour for lunch, and about a half hour for outdoor time when the weather allows.

These three things take up half of the time the kids are there.

So that leaves one and a half hours and part of that HAS to be dressing and undressing upon arrival, departure, and going outside. So let's say that's fifteen minutes.

Now we are at 1.25 hours left.

In that 1.25 hours my suspicion is that they do "circle time" with weather, clocks, calanders, and maybe some reading to the kids.

My suspicion is that as the year progresses from September to May that the time they are IN the classroom that the amount of free play and the clean up of free play pretty much takes a higher and higher amount of time. I can see more "academics" in the top part of the year but as the adults get weary and they see that the kids won't really DO academics unless they have an adult just for them... they find that the "easiest" thing to do is to have them play toys and supervise.

They are supposed to interact with the kids during the free time but there really isn't any measurable way of insisting on that unless the teachers are being supervised daily.

I think they do crafts but the crafts they actually do... the adults do the most of it. They look cool but when deconstructed they really are primarily done by the teachers because little kids can't really DO crafts that will please the parents and make them look like something great to hang up. I think a lot of the adult time is making the crafts into segments that the kids can "stick glue" together or color on... so when the end product gets sent home what you really see is that the kid colored and did a splash or two of gluing.

I think with the ever increasing behavior issues with kids from every economic group that the majority of what the adults do is watching them play and dealing with ill behaved kids who can turn a classroom upside down and seize the adult time by doing what they do at home every day without check and correct.

I think this leaves the adults (regardless of their education level) where survival mode is to keep everything plain and simple as possible so that they have the energy to put out the behavior fires.

I'm not saying they don't do a little this and a little that to teach the actual letters, to teach shapes or numbers identification... but I think that's pretty much all the have the time, ability, and wherewithall to do over a school year.

My son went to Head Start special needs program as a three year old and then an integrated Head Start/pay regular ed program as a four year old. I had the pleasure of dropping in a few times (I started a socks for tots program where I got businesses to donate money for kids socks as the HS teachers told me this was one of their highest needs in the fall, winter, and spring) and the difference between what I saw in the classroom from the begining of the year and the end of the year was as different as night and day.

The begining of the year there were tons of maniplulatives out, painting, sensorty tables, arts stuff etc. He came home with quite a bit of "crafts" but when really looked at ... it was clear he couldn't have done them.

By the end of the year I had visited enough to know the schedule and such a huge portion of the day was not about any kind of education.

By the end of the year what I saw out and available were things that required little to no adult involvement. The painting was replaced with "stamps" and paper. The sensory tables were replaced with boxes of thick crayons, papers, and coloring pages. The toys out were toys that could not be abused without outright poor behavior that leads to injury. The books avialable were put up out of reach... and many many less books were available.

I guess I just wonder if this sort of downsizing and just having them actually THERE is what it comes to once kids are in a classroom over nine months. I think it's difficult to sustain a learning environment when a) they are really too young to learn and APPLY the learning and b) the adults are really consumed with care (feeding, dressing, toileting) and safety-disciplene supervision.

I just am not feeling that with the ratios that are given for this age group if you really CAN do education that is sustainable. When you have one to eight... one to ten... one to twelve etc. the natural flow of things becomes supervision and survival not education.

I'm not convinced the education of the adult is the ultimate key. I think the ratio... a very very low kid to adult ratio is the number one key to our success here. We never have more than four kids to an adult and most days it is three to thee and a half. I think it's never going to work on a mass scale if we don't look pensively at the ratios and class size. I think we wholly overestimate what kind of ratios kids can be in and prosper even WITH educated adults.

It's complicated and no one is really doing it right and proviing it with educational outcomes that are measurable in core subjects. It begs the question if it can and should be done in the first place.
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Old 01-16-2011, 06:44 AM
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Originally Posted by nannyde View Post
In all the reading I do on "preschool" I always have this nagging notion in the back of my head.

I wonder what REALLY happens when you get a room full of three year olds or four year olds. What do they actually DO during that time.. that three hours four days a week like Head Start has.

Our Head Start does breakfast, lunch, and has outdoor time. They have about a half hour for breakfast, half hour for lunch, and about a half hour for outdoor time when the weather allows.

These three things take up half of the time the kids are there.

So that leaves one and a half hours and part of that HAS to be dressing and undressing upon arrival, departure, and going outside. So let's say that's fifteen minutes.

Now we are at 1.25 hours left.

In that 1.25 hours my suspicion is that they do "circle time" with weather, clocks, calanders, and maybe some reading to the kids.

My suspicion is that as the year progresses from September to May that the time they are IN the classroom that the amount of free play and the clean up of free play pretty much takes a higher and higher amount of time. I can see more "academics" in the top part of the year but as the adults get weary and they see that the kids won't really DO academics unless they have an adult just for them... they find that the "easiest" thing to do is to have them play toys and supervise.

They are supposed to interact with the kids during the free time but there really isn't any measurable way of insisting on that unless the teachers are being supervised daily.

I think they do crafts but the crafts they actually do... the adults do the most of it. They look cool but when deconstructed they really are primarily done by the teachers because little kids can't really DO crafts that will please the parents and make them look like something great to hang up. I think a lot of the adult time is making the crafts into segments that the kids can "stick glue" together or color on... so when the end product gets sent home what you really see is that the kid colored and did a splash or two of gluing.

I think with the ever increasing behavior issues with kids from every economic group that the majority of what the adults do is watching them play and dealing with ill behaved kids who can turn a classroom upside down and seize the adult time by doing what they do at home every day without check and correct.

I think this leaves the adults (regardless of their education level) where survival mode is to keep everything plain and simple as possible so that they have the energy to put out the behavior fires.

I'm not saying they don't do a little this and a little that to teach the actual letters, to teach shapes or numbers identification... but I think that's pretty much all the have the time, ability, and wherewithall to do over a school year.

My son went to Head Start special needs program as a three year old and then an integrated Head Start/pay regular ed program as a four year old. I had the pleasure of dropping in a few times (I started a socks for tots program where I got businesses to donate money for kids socks as the HS teachers told me this was one of their highest needs in the fall, winter, and spring) and the difference between what I saw in the classroom from the begining of the year and the end of the year was as different as night and day.

The begining of the year there were tons of maniplulatives out, painting, sensorty tables, arts stuff etc. He came home with quite a bit of "crafts" but when really looked at ... it was clear he couldn't have done them.

By the end of the year I had visited enough to know the schedule and such a huge portion of the day was not about any kind of education.

By the end of the year what I saw out and available were things that required little to no adult involvement. The painting was replaced with "stamps" and paper. The sensory tables were replaced with boxes of thick crayons, papers, and coloring pages. The toys out were toys that could not be abused without outright poor behavior that leads to injury. The books avialable were put up out of reach... and many many less books were available.

I guess I just wonder if this sort of downsizing and just having them actually THERE is what it comes to once kids are in a classroom over nine months. I think it's difficult to sustain a learning environment when a) they are really too young to learn and APPLY the learning and b) the adults are really consumed with care (feeding, dressing, toileting) and safety-disciplene supervision.

I just am not feeling that with the ratios that are given for this age group if you really CAN do education that is sustainable. When you have one to eight... one to ten... one to twelve etc. the natural flow of things becomes supervision and survival not education.

I'm not convinced the education of the adult is the ultimate key. I think the ratio... a very very low kid to adult ratio is the number one key to our success here. We never have more than four kids to an adult and most days it is three to thee and a half. I think it's never going to work on a mass scale if we don't look pensively at the ratios and class size. I think we wholly overestimate what kind of ratios kids can be in and prosper even WITH educated adults.

It's complicated and no one is really doing it right and proviing it with educational outcomes that are measurable in core subjects. It begs the question if it can and should be done in the first place.
I wish I would have been a part of this discussion from the beginning, but sometimes this forum is a full time job in itself! lol

Part of what you're saying about 3-hour preschool program is accurate, part is not. Obviously, this is just my experience but I have worked in head start and non head start programs. I have worked in full day and part day. I have work in state and federally funded programs and private pay programs.

All of the centers that I have worked in have followed developmentally appropriate practice and have either been accredited by Naeyc or were in the process of being accredited. I say this not to impress you (I know that it wouldn't ), but to highlight that there is a HUGE difference between centers that follow developmentally appropriate practices and those that do not. Usually the centers that follow DAP are federally or state funded and also some corporate centers do as well (Bright Horizons is one of those-or at least, was when I worked there about 10 yrs ago). Centers that do not follow DAP are typically smaller, privately owned centers where the requirement for the director is to have 12 or 24- ECE units.

I go into this discussion about DAP because a lot of what you mentioned that you assume these centers are doing is NOT DAP. Worksheets, formal academics, and teacher-directed crafts have NO place in a DAP preschool and as I stated earlier MOST state and federally funded programs follow DAP.

Weather, calendar and clocks are NOT DAP when they are done at circle time everyday as some preschools do them (fewer and fewer are doing them this way). They can be done in a DAP, meaningful way that is probably beyond the scope of this discussion, but I'd be happy to go into it if you'd like.

There are stringent guidelines for federally and state funded preschools. The teachers CANNOT and DO NOT slack off toward the end of the year. They have a daily routine that they follow all year long, which includes some free play, meals, outside time, small group time, circle time. Here's an example of what a daily routine in a 3-hr program may look like:

8:30-9:00 Breakfast

9:00-9:15 Circle

9:15-9:45 Outside

9:45-10:15 Small Group

10:15-11:00 Free play

11:00-11:10 Clean-up

11:10-11:30 Snack

This is the routine we used when I was a director of a state-funded preschool in California.

One of the main tenants of a DAP preschool is to thoughtfully consider the role of the teacher. These teachers do NOT just carry the children through this routine. They do NOT just sit around while the children are playing in free play (please note, I know you did not say that).

The teacher's role is to facilitate children's play. That means:
1. They arrange the children's environment in ways that support their particular group of children's learning and development.
2. They plan developmentally appropriate activities and experiences for the children (ideally planning them for the specific group of children in their care and for their interests and skills)
3. They interact with the children in a way that shows that they know where their children are developmentally and they are aware of the next stage of their development.

The teacher's role is to observe children. Typically (at least in these state and federally funded programs, and also at Bright Horizons), the teachers write anecdotal notes of the children's skills and development. That means that they watch the children during play (sometimes the teachers are interacting with the children and sometimes they are just observing) and they write down when they see the children demonstrating a particular skill or demonstrating language development, etc. These notes then are used to direct the lesson plans, as these notes show the teachers where developmentally their children are and also what their interests are.

The teacher's role is also of course to plan activities for the children. In every DAP center that I've worked in, the teachers plan a small group activity. A small group activity may have 8-10 children and usually one teacher. The teacher has planned an activity specifically for those particular children in her small group. She may read a book and have the children draw or paint pictures about that book. In a DAP preschool, there is NO PLACE for teacher-directed crafts where all the crafts look the same (sometimes if you see head start programs do this, they are not following NAEYC guidelines and they should not be doing these 'parent pleasers'. I know they used to do some of this, but I don't know if they still include this in part of their curriculum). The teachers also plan for every other part of the day. They plan for the outside play- maybe bringing out particular toys or having one of the teachers involved in an outside activity (parachute or bubbles) while the other is roaming the yard and observing other children and taking care of any problems when they arise, etc.). The teachers also plan circle time activities, games and songs.

Also, the curriculum doesn't stop just because the children are having a meal. The children are served using family-style meals. The children serve themselves and have to count out their crackers. The teachers also sit down with the children and also engage in eating the meal. They model appropriate manners, they model eating a variety of foods (I cannot tell you how many times I ate foods that I don't particularly like because I knew it was important to show the children that these foods are good and important for our bodies). They also engage the children in discussions. Often these are lively discussions about whatever is going on in the children's day, what's going on at home, what might be planned for the preschool day. Often the children lead the direction of this discussion and may talk about the colors that they are wearing (I once went through a period of about a month with a group of children that every single day that was the discussion at the table!). The possibilities for language development, discussion of math and science concepts, and the discussion of real world things is endless during meals (as I'm sure you well know).

There is also an entire discussion on children's assessment that I could get into. But, I'm tired . This is by far the longest post I've ever written and I need a little break...lol. Please, someone else feel free to chime in about preschools. I'd also be happy to answer any questions about what happens in a preschool from anyone. I think there are a lot of misconceptions about early childhood education from those that haven't been trained in ECE and I hope that those that have worked in preschools or have been trained in ECE will speak up.
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Old 01-16-2011, 06:51 AM
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Originally Posted by nannyde View Post
In all the reading I do on "preschool" I always have this nagging notion in the back of my head.

I wonder what REALLY happens when you get a room full of three year olds or four year olds. What do they actually DO during that time.. that three hours four days a week like Head Start has.

Our Head Start does breakfast, lunch, and has outdoor time. They have about a half hour for breakfast, half hour for lunch, and about a half hour for outdoor time when the weather allows.

These three things take up half of the time the kids are there.

So that leaves one and a half hours and part of that HAS to be dressing and undressing upon arrival, departure, and going outside. So let's say that's fifteen minutes.

Now we are at 1.25 hours left.

In that 1.25 hours my suspicion is that they do "circle time" with weather, clocks, calanders, and maybe some reading to the kids.

My suspicion is that as the year progresses from September to May that the time they are IN the classroom that the amount of free play and the clean up of free play pretty much takes a higher and higher amount of time. I can see more "academics" in the top part of the year but as the adults get weary and they see that the kids won't really DO academics unless they have an adult just for them... they find that the "easiest" thing to do is to have them play toys and supervise.

They are supposed to interact with the kids during the free time but there really isn't any measurable way of insisting on that unless the teachers are being supervised daily.

I think they do crafts but the crafts they actually do... the adults do the most of it. They look cool but when deconstructed they really are primarily done by the teachers because little kids can't really DO crafts that will please the parents and make them look like something great to hang up. I think a lot of the adult time is making the crafts into segments that the kids can "stick glue" together or color on... so when the end product gets sent home what you really see is that the kid colored and did a splash or two of gluing.

I think with the ever increasing behavior issues with kids from every economic group that the majority of what the adults do is watching them play and dealing with ill behaved kids who can turn a classroom upside down and seize the adult time by doing what they do at home every day without check and correct.

I think this leaves the adults (regardless of their education level) where survival mode is to keep everything plain and simple as possible so that they have the energy to put out the behavior fires.

I'm not saying they don't do a little this and a little that to teach the actual letters, to teach shapes or numbers identification... but I think that's pretty much all the have the time, ability, and wherewithall to do over a school year.

My son went to Head Start special needs program as a three year old and then an integrated Head Start/pay regular ed program as a four year old. I had the pleasure of dropping in a few times (I started a socks for tots program where I got businesses to donate money for kids socks as the HS teachers told me this was one of their highest needs in the fall, winter, and spring) and the difference between what I saw in the classroom from the begining of the year and the end of the year was as different as night and day.

The begining of the year there were tons of maniplulatives out, painting, sensorty tables, arts stuff etc. He came home with quite a bit of "crafts" but when really looked at ... it was clear he couldn't have done them.

By the end of the year I had visited enough to know the schedule and such a huge portion of the day was not about any kind of education.

By the end of the year what I saw out and available were things that required little to no adult involvement. The painting was replaced with "stamps" and paper. The sensory tables were replaced with boxes of thick crayons, papers, and coloring pages. The toys out were toys that could not be abused without outright poor behavior that leads to injury. The books avialable were put up out of reach... and many many less books were available.

I guess I just wonder if this sort of downsizing and just having them actually THERE is what it comes to once kids are in a classroom over nine months. I think it's difficult to sustain a learning environment when a) they are really too young to learn and APPLY the learning and b) the adults are really consumed with care (feeding, dressing, toileting) and safety-disciplene supervision.

I just am not feeling that with the ratios that are given for this age group if you really CAN do education that is sustainable. When you have one to eight... one to ten... one to twelve etc. the natural flow of things becomes supervision and survival not education.

I'm not convinced the education of the adult is the ultimate key. I think the ratio... a very very low kid to adult ratio is the number one key to our success here. We never have more than four kids to an adult and most days it is three to thee and a half. I think it's never going to work on a mass scale if we don't look pensively at the ratios and class size. I think we wholly overestimate what kind of ratios kids can be in and prosper even WITH educated adults.

It's complicated and no one is really doing it right and proviing it with educational outcomes that are measurable in core subjects. It begs the question if it can and should be done in the first place.
You bring up a lot of good points. All valid and all with the potential of happening. First, you need really -really good people. People that want to be there, have lots and lots of patience, understand early childhood development, have good management skills, can listen and are kind and nurturing. From my past experience the one holding the masters degree isn't always that person. They go to school, work hard, study, earn their degree and have the ideal they will go to a classroom, the children will sit with their hands folded and they can "teach". The reality of working in a preschool soon sets in and, yes, they are in survival mode. So, while education is important, the experience, personality and temperament of the "preschool teacher" is a very big factor.

Class size must be small. Classroom must be organized. Class must have a structured day. Yes, children will need assistance with many of the crafts. Sometimes the craft is just the experience of using the instruments. Holding the paint brush, scrunching the tissue paper, using the glue sticks/crayons.
Crafts are also an opportunity to teach children to follow simple direction. (a very important skill to know) It provides an opportunity to talk about colors, textures, shapes etc. Looking at the craft isn't a true reflection of what is done. It is the engagement that goes on between the teacher (or preschool teacher ) and the child while the craft is being worked on. In a good preschool, there is always teaching going on, even while the teacher is assisting with things the child isn't able to do themselves.

"Academic" time is exposure to literature, numbers, letters, sounds. It is a chance to engage children in conversation to build language and listening skills.

It is a lot of hard work but can be done well if you have the right staff.

I do believe children benefit from a preschool experience. They can develop many valuable skills.
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Old 01-16-2011, 07:02 AM
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They won't be able to show you. All of the studies advocates base their claims from were small scale studies done on the extremely disadvantaged children. They take the benefits of these small scale programs that were done decades ago and try to apply the benefits to the larger population. The advocates are not representing the entire picture and are cherry picking the benefits. I agree with you and am happy to see there are others who understand it. To learn more visit www.prioritizepre-k.com
Do you understand Florida's system?

They have vouchers for four year old preK that are like 2700 bucks per kid and it's mostly done by private providers.

Do the kids that get state funded DAY CARE also get that subisidy in ADDITION to the 2670 bucks for the 540 hours of preK? So if a kid comes to a Center or "school" they have both the child care (for the other hours per day they are there) funding PLUS the school money? This would mean that the state paid four year old who was in child care for ten hours a day would bring like ten grand to the table?

I also don't understand their summer thing. Is the summer option in ADDITION to the school year or THE preschool education (300 hours over the summer). If it isn't then do they get the 2670 for the nine/ten weeks the same as the ones that do three hours a day during the school year? Or... is it required to offer the additional 300 summer hours on top of the 540 hours they do during the school year for the same money? Can one kid get preschool for the school year AND summer for just the 2670 or does it have to be one or the other.

Since the private pay parents have to pay for their own day care I can see how this subsidy would be in ADDITION to the amount the parents give for day care. Either scenario.... state paid child care plus education money or private pay day care plus education money is going to net the provider a pretty princely sum for each individual kid.

It makes me think THIS is why the private sector has taken on the preschool. There is money to be made if you combine both sources of funding. I can see providers specifically looking for the kids who come with BOTH packages (state funded child care and school money). It would be the first time in our country where state paid kids were the most highly sought after kids as long as the money they got for child care wasn't affected by the subsidy they get for the school.

That kind of money would make it WORTH it profit wise to actually HAVE educational measurable outcomes.

Is this what you are thinking for your business? Getting state monies per kid plus the subisidized child care and or private pay for the child care?

I would think it would mean actually getting PAID for doing the education. I think most providers would be thrilled to get care money and education money for each kid instead of what most get... which is just care money that often isn't enough to cover a good salary for care.

Heck I would even do preschool if I could get nearly five bucks an hour per kid per day in three hour blocks in addition to their care money.

If they are cutting the tuition for care and substituting the 2760 per kid to decrease the cost of child care to the parents then I can't see it working. Meaning if a kids parents paid seven hundred a month for day care but with the subsidey the center lowered it to four hundred a month because the other three hundred was provided by the voucher... it wouldn't really be worth it to do it. If the Center got their seven hundred a month PLUS the three hundred a month the voucher brought THEN I could see it working. (easy math but you get the point)

So how does it work?

I know there must be some market where the kids just come for the free three hours of school and don't use any other service. My guess is that these kids are not so highly sought after and could affect the total take on the other kids who get both funding. If that is the case, is there businesses that can refuse enrolling kids who have parents that just want the free three hour deal? Those kids would just fund in at about five dollars per hour. I can't see fifteen a day per kid really benefiting the business unless you could do three classes back to back a day with just preschool kids. You would have to have some other form of income for the slot for those kids.
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Old 01-16-2011, 07:06 AM
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i was referring to this point about the "middle class" which really isn't even a good word: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...g=content;col1


Children and students at all levels would benefit from implementing a universal preschool system. However, the students who would benefit most are the students that are most commonly overlooked, children just above the poverty line. The current system of providing preschool for only some of the nation's children is unacceptable.

Currently, there are primarily two sectors of children who receive a preschool education; those who can afford a private education and those who are beneath the poverty line and qualify for federally funded programs. "Families with incomes just below the national average ($40,000-$50,000) have less access to high-quality preschool than poorer or wealthier families. The wealthy families can afford good private programs. The poorer families are more likely to have access to targeted programs."2 "The need for preschool education does not cease when family incomes exceed the income thresholds for targeted state (and federal) programs. Children in these families constitute a large underserved population and deserve access to high-quality preschool programs."3


And when I asked what the issue was, I meant *your* issue, assuming as a preschool operator that this has something to do with it:

Another benefit of universal preschool is that state and federally funded schools would force private preschools to improve so that they avoid losing students to government funded schools. By demanding quality programs for children ages three to five, extra pressure would be placed on private preschools not only to comply with the standards, but to exceed the standards in order to continue to draw students. Currently, the majority of children who attend private preschools are from middle and upper class socio-economic backgrounds.8 These children's parents have the resources, understand the vital importance of a quality education, and are willing to spend substantial sums of money to ensure this quality education. These parents will continue to pay for preschools providing a superior education.

"These parents will continue to pay for preschool providing a superior education."

i said, "public school is offered to all children and people still choose to send their children to private schools."

same point.

you know it wasn't that long ago in historical terms that this same issue came up concerning kindergarten. yes, schools are cutting programs, but around here it's typically things like "spanish class" for kindergarteners which i think is great since most of them aren't competent in english. what you DON'T see being cut are the football teams. when they start cutting those, then there's a crisis.

it can be argued that the people who can afford preschool should pay for it and it shouldn't be publicly funded, but couldn't the same be said of students in K-12?

it's true that the only real gains in preschool that are documented take place with low income children. it's also true that most research has been focused on programs such as head start, and let's not forget - the govt. funded programs have higher standards for their teachers and even still aren't high enough (compared to k-12). the same thing would happen if pre-k became universal. the standards for teachers would be higher. only THEN could the benefits to middle/upper class be accurately compared.
My issue is small potatoes compared to the larger issue. Yes, as a preschool owner, I am losing business. But I will survive.
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It's no crime to be a business owner and hope to do well. Regardless, as a taxpayer, I also have a problem with "universal" preschool. 80% of children in the nation currently go to preschool. If we need to expand the parameters to allow more children the opportunity, fine. I have a problem with programs that shuffle children from the private sector and put the cost on the taxpayer, especially when those families can well afford to pay for it. This is not good policy for our already suffering economy. By doing this, you are forcing small business to close their door, decreasing tax revenue, increasing unemployment and raising our taxes.

Districts in our area are doing more than cutting sports. They are cutting full day Kindergarten at the same time they have a $1.6 million dollar UPK program running. In my opinion, that just doesn't make sense.

Use our money wisely and restore cuts to K-12 and prioritize pre-k money to those most in need.
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Old 01-16-2011, 07:06 AM
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guess i don't know how to attach smilies
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Old 01-16-2011, 07:23 AM
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Do you understand Florida's system?

They have vouchers for four year old preK that are like 2700 bucks per kid and it's mostly done by private providers.

Do the kids that get state funded DAY CARE also get that subisidy in ADDITION to the 2670 bucks for the 540 hours of preK? So if a kid comes to a Center or "school" they have both the child care (for the other hours per day they are there) funding PLUS the school money? This would mean that the state paid four year old who was in child care for ten hours a day would bring like ten grand to the table?

I also don't understand their summer thing. Is the summer option in ADDITION to the school year or THE preschool education (300 hours over the summer). If it isn't then do they get the 2670 for the nine/ten weeks the same as the ones that do three hours a day during the school year? Or... is it required to offer the additional 300 summer hours on top of the 540 hours they do during the school year for the same money? Can one kid get preschool for the school year AND summer for just the 2670 or does it have to be one or the other.

Since the private pay parents have to pay for their own day care I can see how this subsidy would be in ADDITION to the amount the parents give for day care. Either scenario.... state paid child care plus education money or private pay day care plus education money is going to net the provider a pretty princely sum for each individual kid.

It makes me think THIS is why the private sector has taken on the preschool. There is money to be made if you combine both sources of funding. I can see providers specifically looking for the kids who come with BOTH packages (state funded child care and school money). It would be the first time in our country where state paid kids were the most highly sought after kids as long as the money they got for child care wasn't affected by the subsidy they get for the school.

That kind of money would make it WORTH it profit wise to actually HAVE educational measurable outcomes.

Is this what you are thinking for your business? Getting state monies per kid plus the subisidized child care and or private pay for the child care?

I would think it would mean actually getting PAID for doing the education. I think most providers would be thrilled to get care money and education money for each kid instead of what most get... which is just care money that often isn't enough to cover a good salary for care.

Heck I would even do preschool if I could get nearly five bucks an hour per kid per day in three hour blocks in addition to their care money.

If they are cutting the tuition for care and substituting the 2760 per kid to decrease the cost of child care to the parents then I can't see it working. Meaning if a kids parents paid seven hundred a month for day care but with the subsidey the center lowered it to four hundred a month because the other three hundred was provided by the voucher... it wouldn't really be worth it to do it. If the Center got their seven hundred a month PLUS the three hundred a month the voucher brought THEN I could see it working. (easy math but you get the point)

So how does it work?

I know there must be some market where the kids just come for the free three hours of school and don't use any other service. My guess is that these kids are not so highly sought after and could affect the total take on the other kids who get both funding. If that is the case, is there businesses that can refuse enrolling kids who have parents that just want the free three hour deal? Those kids would just fund in at about five dollars per hour. I can't see fifteen a day per kid really benefiting the business unless you could do three classes back to back a day with just preschool kids. You would have to have some other form of income for the slot for those kids.
I'm getting a headache just reading about the craziness. lol What I do know about Florida is that they have been very successful is raising 4th grade reading scores. They went from below the national average to above the national average. According to NIEER, they spend the least amount of money on preschool.

I don't want any state or federal money. I just want to run my business. Childcare is so complex. Is it day care, is it preschool. For the record, my business is 1/2 day preschool. Kids are only there for 2 1/2 hours. Most of my families are stay at home moms.

The goal of the UPK advocates is to provide full day childcare for three and four year old children and have this responsibility fall onto our public school. Our schools are already overburdened. Child care should be handled by the childcare professionals not our public schools.
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Old 01-16-2011, 07:33 AM
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I'm getting a headache just reading about the craziness. lol What I do know about Florida is that they have been very successful is raising 4th grade reading scores. They went from below the national average to above the national average. According to NIEER, they spend the least amount of money on preschool.

I don't want any state or federal money. I just want to run my business. Childcare is so complex. Is it day care, is it preschool. For the record, my business is 1/2 day preschool. Kids are only there for 2 1/2 hours. Most of my families are stay at home moms.

The goal of the UPK advocates is to provide full day childcare for three and four year old children and have this responsibility fall onto our public school. Our schools are already overburdened. Child care should be handled by the childcare professionals not our public schools.
The reason I bring up Florida is because on first blush there has to be some reason why the private sector does it. It's got to be money.

We can't determine WHY it works if we don't look at the money and why the private sector is taking it on. Simply put.....if the education money is in ADDITION to the care money not included in the care money THEN you could actually have the funds to do more than care.

If your market is just SAHM's getting 2.5 hours per day X days a week during X times during the year then you must be getting a pretty good sum PER HOUR PER KID to make a living at it. It can't be the five dollar per hour the florida providers are getting just for the three hours per day for 180 days per year. The math doesn't work unless you are allowed VERY VERY high adult to child ratios.

There's no way that stand alone five dollar an hour "school" for four year olds is going to make a difference in test scores. There HAS to be more money (state funded, parent funded, food program etc.)
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Old 01-16-2011, 07:41 AM
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Two years ago I had a kid go from my house to the Grand View Park Baptist preschool at age four.

Her Mom gave me the actual hours of service and the days school was in and I figured out to the hour what the cost per hour was total for the year. Two years ago it was 6.72 per hour per kid.

Now they LOOKED like they had a school year but they were quite clever in how they do the payments. Parents pay a flat rate per month starting in August and last payment in May. Thing was that there was only a few hours of actual school in August in May and they took two weeks off at Christmas, one week at spring break, and early outs..no school on Thanksgiving and religious holiday days.

When it was all said and done it was 6.72 per hour. The area I serve the care is about three dollars an hour.

They are very successful but the parents don't really GET the money part of it until they feel the difference between having so many days of not having care at all or shortened days when comparing it to child care. It's litteraly more than twice as expensive so of course they have more services for the individual kids.

No matter how it is sliced there has to be money FOR the schooling and it has to be separate than care money. Any other combo will not produce results that are measurable.
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Old 01-16-2011, 07:41 AM
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The reason I bring up Florida is because on first blush there has to be some reason why the private sector does it. It's got to be money.

We can't determine WHY it works if we don't look at the money and why the private sector is taking it on. Simply put.....if the education money is in ADDITION to the care money not included in the care money THEN you could actually have the funds to do more than care.

If your market is just SAHM's getting 2.5 hours per day X days a week during X times during the year then you must be getting a pretty good sum PER HOUR PER KID to make a living at it. It can't be the five dollar per hour the florida providers are getting just for the three hours per day for 180 days per year. The math doesn't work unless you are allowed VERY VERY high adult to child ratios.

There's no way that stand alone five dollar an hour "school" for four year olds is going to make a difference in test scores. There HAS to be more money (state funded, parent funded, food program etc.)
no state or federal funding. (always more than one teacher in the classroom) 2's 4-1 3's 6-1 4s 7-1


cost - depending on the amount of days..

monthly 2 day 170 3 day 185 five day 50


yes i have state certified teachers in each classroom.
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Old 01-16-2011, 07:43 AM
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no state or federal funding. (always more than one teacher in the classroom) 2's 4-1 3's 6-1 4s 7-1


cost - depending on the amount of days..

monthly 2 day 170 3 day 185 five day 50


yes i have state certified teachers in each classroom.
oops 5 day 250
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Old 01-16-2011, 07:50 AM
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no state or federal funding. (always more than one teacher in the classroom) 2's 4-1 3's 6-1 4s 7-1


cost - depending on the amount of days..

monthly 2 day 170 3 day 185 five day 50


yes i have state certified teachers in each classroom.
I don't know what your calendar looks like and how many of those weeks you are not in session but no matter how you slice that this is a very high hourly rate. (looks like maybe a target rate of around eight an hour).

That's GOOD .. it should be that way. I don't think you could compete with the five dollars an hour for stand alone (no child care fee included) that Florida offers. I don't see how Florida can do it either. There HAS to be some other monies in this.
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Old 01-16-2011, 07:52 AM
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I don't know what your calendar looks like and how many of those weeks you are not in session but no matter how you slice that this is a very high hourly rate. (looks like maybe a target rate of around eight an hour).

That's GOOD .. it should be that way. I don't think you could compete with the five dollars an hour for stand alone (no child care fee included) that Florida offers. I don't see how Florida can do it either. There HAS to be some other monies in this.
calendar looks much like you describe. parents know it up front
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Old 01-16-2011, 08:08 AM
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calendar looks much like you describe. parents know it up front
So you can see from a home providers viewpoint that what you get per child per hour is a large portion if not all of what a home provider gets for 2/3 or all of a full ten hour day five days a week?

See why adding expectations of adding education to care for very close to the same amount of dollars total just doesn't work?

It won't work in a Center where they are making four dollars an hour per kid. It won't work in a home day care where they are making three or less per hour.

So do you do breakfast or lunch or just a mid session snack?
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Old 01-16-2011, 01:46 PM
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nannyde,

i spent a lot of time in head start when i was in school, and i used to say, "all these kids do is eat."

that's all there was time for it seemed like.

but the reality was that for most of those kids, the meals they got there were the only REAL meals they would get at all. so it really was important. forget about teaching them how to write their name or learn the calendar. they had to learn how to sit down, not throw tantrums, not whack somebody in the face for no reason, how to pull up their own pants, how to wash their hands, etc. you know how honest kids are. you could ask, "how many of you brushed your teeth this morning?" NOT ME! my mommy won't let me! i didn't! head start helps pay for dental care, eye glasses, etc. thank god for it really. a kid who's in pain bc their teeth are rotten or they're hungry or they can't see isn't going to care about the alphabet when they get to kindergarten. yes, these are all things these kids COULD learn in daycare, but their parents often don't work so they can't get daycare paid for. even if they did, half of the kids would get kicked out. not to mention - daycare doesn't have a social worker or a speech therapist, etc.

then i spent some time with probably the best teacher i've ever seen. it was in a pre-k class funded by the school system. i watched everything she did and tried to do a lot of what she did when i taught because whatever she did WORKED. there was not one minute that they were not learning something. i was amazed. i had been in kindergarten classrooms (lots of them) where the kids didn't know as much as her pre-k kids did. and these pre-k kids were kids that scored the very lowest on the entry test who were doing better than K kids who weren't picked through. one reason this teacher did such a great job and was more effective than any other preschool i'd seen (private and head start) is because she was getting PAID well enough to want to, and she was held to a higher standard by the state. she had to show progress and believe me she did.

so, what's the difference between a pre-k teacher who merely supervises and
one who utilizes their time to teach? i'd say about a 20-30,000 dollar difference.

have you seen preschool teacher's salaries at head start and private programs? i'm not talking about OWNERS, but teachers. of course, they don't HAVE to have as much education (some of them might) but regardless, they get paid maybe 15-25,000 dollars. it's no different than the childcare provider who "doesn't get paid enough to feed an extra meal." the pre-k teachers don't get paid enough to facilitate a kickball game or talk to a kid while pushing them on a swing. they only get paid enough to stand around and talk.

quality always costs more money. i can use Xtra laundry detergent and the clothes will make it through the wash, but i can use GAIN and spend a few more bucks and they'll come out smelling awesome. instead of paying a lot and seeing no change, i'd rather pay a little more and see a huge difference. same concept.

Last edited by QualiTcare; 01-16-2011 at 01:51 PM.
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Old 01-16-2011, 02:11 PM
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My issue is small potatoes compared to the larger issue. Yes, as a preschool owner, I am losing business. But I will survive.
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It's no crime to be a business owner and hope to do well. Regardless, as a taxpayer, I also have a problem with "universal" preschool. 80% of children in the nation currently go to preschool. If we need to expand the parameters to allow more children the opportunity, fine. I have a problem with programs that shuffle children from the private sector and put the cost on the taxpayer, especially when those families can well afford to pay for it. This is not good policy for our already suffering economy. By doing this, you are forcing small business to close their door, decreasing tax revenue, increasing unemployment and raising our taxes.

Districts in our area are doing more than cutting sports. They are cutting full day Kindergarten at the same time they have a $1.6 million dollar UPK program running. In my opinion, that just doesn't make sense.

Use our money wisely and restore cuts to K-12 and prioritize pre-k money to those most in need.
i didn't say it was a crime. it was just an obvious fact/motivator that hadn't been mentioned.

you said, "I have a problem with programs that shuffle children from the private sector and put the cost on the taxpayer, especially when those families can well afford to pay for it."

i asked before, what's the difference between the k-12 students who can well afford to pay for private school, but they're going to public school?

the fact is there is a ton of money being spent and the results aren't showing the money is worth it. so, why pay MORE money? well, would you spend 100 bucks on a TV that didn't work, or 120 bucks on one that worked like a charm? who are these "teachers" in the private sector held accountable to? who is monitoring the children's progress?

i can see saying "if it ain't broke, don't fix it," but it IS "broke."

it does make sense to cut FULL day kindergarten classes to keep pre-k because MORE CHILDREN get served that way. 100 kids get to go to school and stay half a day instead of 50 children going and staying all day and the other 50 staying at home wishing they could go to school. makes sense to me.
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Old 01-16-2011, 02:20 PM
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Yes, quality does cost. The state funded program that I worked at in California I had up to 96 children- 24 children per classroom. The center received around $20 per child per day. We only got paid on days children were actually there. We operated 5 days a week. We had to pay 6-7 teachers (mostly full-time), a director's salary, and a cook's salary. We paid benefits for employees, materials, building costs, everything.

We ALWAYS had plenty of supplies- had a budget of $650/month on just preschool activity supplies.

We were able to pay our teachers/director well. I had a few teachers with bachelor's degrees, and the experienced and really good ones made around $19/hour. Teachers with associates degrees would typically make around $12 starting out. Assistant teachers would often start around $11, and we never paid lower than that (yes, that's not a lot of money, but they were assistants and in a learning position, often still in school).

I don't think $20/day per child is too much to ask for really good quality programming. Plus we often had a surplus at the end of the month, sometimes just a couple thousand dollars on months with many holidays (Nov/Dec) to over $10,000 on those months with lots of school days.
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Old 01-16-2011, 02:22 PM
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I worked in Head Start for 5 years. I agree that it is a program to help low income children learn things they do not get at home, like QualiT said, sit still eat a nutrious meal (only one that day) and play with kids in an environment that doesn't have peeling paint and unsafe conditions. I quit working in the center I worked in because I wanted more control over the kids' environment and the things they got to do and say rather than have to follow the whole mentality of making sure our grant money was spent every year in full so we could get more the next year. I am NOT saying all Head Start is the way it is here but these are a few of the things I was po'ed about....

1. My starting wage was outrageously high (I was a past Head Start parent with NO education beyond high school.) They paid for me to earn my CDA and get all necessary trainings. I was NOT qualified for the job they gave me. My official title: Assistant Teacher/Home Visitor

2. I was told to replenish my Home Visit supplies every year from Lakeshore Learning or Kaplan where a Candyland game was $14.99 versus $4 at Wal-mart. I was reprimanded twice for trying to buy supplies at cheaper stores.

3. Our lead teacher had a 2 yr AA degree and was so scatterbrained she had her electricity turned off regularly, spent time in detox on certain holidays or long wekends and took Prozac openly in class as needed. Yes, she is still employed there 23 years and running....

4. On Fridays, the Assistant Teachers and Lead Teacher as well as the Family Center Coordinator got catered meals to sit and "Plan" for next week...which meant gossiping about how Timmy's mom was sleeping with Joey's dad and Billy's dad went to jail AGAIN but not to worry because we talked about all the kids equally and their situations as if it were a taping of The Maury Povich show.....

5. When our 2nd Assistant Teacher quit to take the managers position at the liquor store we didn't go without for long because Hey! The Bus rider volunteer person needed a job that paid better and had better hours and since we were cutting transportation the next year we hired her and trained her with a CDA and all the good stuff...gave her a title and we were set for the next year.

6. During meetings we were told to make sure we tell all the familes about such and such programs so they can get free help (i.e. if they get a job, we lose a kid which means we lose $$$$'s so don't encourage any of these families to work or get jobs) I was also told in these EXACT words "Treat all families as if they have no more than an 8th grade education" Like just because they were poor, they were dumb too?!?! How sad! We were encouraging families to stay on welfare...I never got that.

I know not all Head Starts are not this way but I also live in an area where 85% of childen are low income and living in poverty so I do not understand why it is allowed to be run the way it is...these kids need the basics and the teachers are getting paid a fortune to do nothing but what I am now providing at childcare. Basic necessities. I am a believer still in the positives of early education but I can see where Nannyde is coming from when she says the only kids who seem to benefit from it are the low income kids.....I think Head Start has made me a bit of a skeptic but if kids who have their basic needs met are given early childhood education it can be helpful and good. I just had a gripe about government run Head Starts. I do think Head Start is money based...more kids in need=more government dollars! I see it in the number of parents I have on public assitance now. One mom in particular has been in my childcare since her oldest was 2 (he is 16 now) and she is still on the welfare system and has had 3 more kids with two more dads. She has gotten no job, no education and no encouragement to get off her butt yet I watch her child every day at no cost to her (well, her co-pay is $10 per month) and she goes ??? I dunno where or what she does...but she drops off everyday without missing a single day in a really long time. I know she isn't going to work and she isn't going to school so why is she still allowed to be on state assistance?.....I will forever be confused by government programs that help families because in my honest opinion they enable, NOT assist.
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Old 01-16-2011, 03:27 PM
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prioritizepre-k prioritizepre-k is offline
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Originally Posted by QualiTcare View Post
i didn't say it was a crime. it was just an obvious fact/motivator that hadn't been mentioned.

you said, "I have a problem with programs that shuffle children from the private sector and put the cost on the taxpayer, especially when those families can well afford to pay for it."

i asked before, what's the difference between the k-12 students who can well afford to pay for private school, but they're going to public school?

the fact is there is a ton of money being spent and the results aren't showing the money is worth it. so, why pay MORE money? well, would you spend 100 bucks on a TV that didn't work, or 120 bucks on one that worked like a charm? who are these "teachers" in the private sector held accountable to? who is monitoring the children's progress?

i can see saying "if it ain't broke, don't fix it," but it IS "broke."

it does make sense to cut FULL day kindergarten classes to keep pre-k because MORE CHILDREN get served that way. 100 kids get to go to school and stay half a day instead of 50 children going and staying all day and the other 50 staying at home wishing they could go to school. makes sense to me.
guess we're going to have to agree to disagree.
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Old 11-12-2012, 04:24 PM
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Lightbulb There are more benifets than some people realize

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Originally Posted by prioritizepre-k View Post
I focus on preschool because I am the owner of a preschool. I do believe preschool is beneficial. I do not believe the government are the only one's who can do it well. With that said, yes i believe parents can teach their children the basics too. The only thing homeschooling won't accomplish is all of the social benefits the children receive by being in a classroom with a few of their peers. Taking turns, sharing, not taking too much of the teachers attention. etc. These are important skills they will need as they enter a Kindergarten classroom with 20+ kids.
www.prioritizepre-k.com
Another benefit of preschool (If the Provider/Preschool Teacher are trained in child observation) is that a provider/teacher may know some warning signs of learning disabilities/delays or social problems that parents may not be able to pick up themselves due to either thinking this behavior is typical (because they may not understand development) or not having a diverse enough social environment to measure these domains. Early detection can help parents to get resorces to early childhood intervention to help them get the support they need before they enter the school systems- which may make them be held back if not treated early.
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