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  #1  
Old 10-26-2012, 06:26 AM
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Default Children Cleaning Up After A Toilet Accident

This is a spin off from this thread in the Parents and Guardians forum. I decided to start a different thread so as to not derail the other one.

I guess I'm about to get flamed here but...

I *do* have kids clean up their messes, and that includes accidents. It's part of potty learning. They don't spray cleaner or anything, but I'll have them changes clothes and bag the wet ones, give them a big wad of paper towels and show them how to wipe up the liquid, put the wad in a plastic bag, then wash their hands really well. I'm super calm and nonchalant about it all. "Oops, you had an accident! You must have forgotten to listen to your body; that's okay, it happens. Let's change clothes...okay, now we need to clean this up..." After they go back to what they were doing, I give the floor a spritz with cleaner and wipe it up again.

I have them wipe up their spilled milk/water, too, and if they drop their lunch on the floor they pick that up too.

It's not punishment...it's responsible. I see it as part of learning to be a good "citizen" and responsible for their own actions. Even when it's an accident.

Am I really that unusual?
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Old 10-26-2012, 06:30 AM
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IMHO, It simply depends on the childs age and maturity level.

Technically, urine is sterile so the milk presents more of a health danger to them

I feel the stigma attached to it is more about the fact that the majority of child abuse in daycare centers around potty training (then nap) issues.
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Old 10-26-2012, 06:46 AM
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I have the children change their own clothing and put it into a bag, but I clean up any puddles.

Spilled drink puddles, though, they help clean up. I have a bunch of little washcloths on a shelf for them to use during mealtimes and they will go grab one. Responsible preschoolers!
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Old 10-26-2012, 07:00 AM
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Silver...I do exactly the same as you. To me, it is just teaching the child responsibility. I don't have them clean up BM though, except when my DS was PT and refused to poop in the toilet. I finally had him clean himself up once...and I've never had him poop his pants again....but that's my own kid.
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Old 10-26-2012, 07:01 AM
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I do the same as you. It's not a big deal. My dcps actually appreciate it because when an accident happens at home, the kids get out of the wet clothes and begin cleaning up after themselves. No meltdowns, no freak outs -- just calm kids cleaning up after an accident.

The way I see it is that spilled juice and a pee accident are no different. In both cases the child wasn't aware of their body. Whether it is a wild hand motion that spills the drink or waiting a little too long to get to the bathroom, an accident is an accident. It happens. The important thing is that the child has the confidence AFTER the accident to know that accidents happen, it isn't a big deal, but we are responsible for ourselves even if the result was unintentional.

It isn't shaming or humiliating, it is part of being a human. Humans make mistakes. What is important is that we learn from them and try not to make the same ones over and over. I feel that taking part in the clean up instills responsibility in the child and makes them a better person.
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Old 10-26-2012, 07:17 AM
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I always have them clean up to their ability level. I agree - it is a responsibility issue!
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Old 10-26-2012, 07:24 AM
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me too...that is what I was trying to say yesterday on that thread. That under some circumstances, they help clean up.

No, I don't yell at them and say "now look what you did...you clean this up" and then walk away. But, they are involved in the process depending on their ability level.
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Old 10-26-2012, 07:30 AM
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I agree with you all too.
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Old 10-26-2012, 07:42 AM
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I do the same as Silver
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Old 10-26-2012, 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by SilverSabre25 View Post

It's not punishment...it's responsible. I see it as part of learning to be a good "citizen" and responsible for their own actions. Even when it's an accident.

There are much better more age appropriate ways to promote responsibility though imho. A child cleaning up a urine or poop accident isn't the only, or anywhere near the best, way to go about instilling that value.

With my foster care license it was literally against regs to ask a child of ANY age to do it because of the issues it has the potential to cause or how often adults would abuse it. I had a 6 and 8 year old sibling set once, both had issues with having "accidents." Although they would obviously clean themselves up anything else fell to me, and I was not allowed to even furrow my brow about it.

Studies have shown it's THAT big of a detriment. Although it was very often challenging to deal with it went along with the job. Same goes for childcare, again imho.

I don't see how encouraging a child to help clean up their own urine or feces accidents is going to assist them in learning anything really. In fact, I'd be inclined to believe frequent contact with the pee and poo could very well desensitize a child to the ick factor of it all, and actually encourage them to feel comfortable with it touching them. What's the difference between cleaning up urine with your hands and having it down your pants and on your legs? For some toddlers I can't imagine it would be that big of a stretch.


That said I don't believe in potty "training" at all. If kids are actually ready there should be no accidents, so my perspective is a little different lol.
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Old 10-26-2012, 07:56 AM
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Phew! I feel better now I'm glad I'm not the only one!

I agree that it depends a LOT on the maturity level; but that being said I generally feel like if they're not quite ready to help clean...maybe they're not quite mature enough to be potty training, KWIM?
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Old 10-26-2012, 07:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverSabre25 View Post
This is a spin off from this thread in the Parents and Guardians forum. I decided to start a different thread so as to not derail the other one.

I guess I'm about to get flamed here but...

I *do* have kids clean up their messes, and that includes accidents. It's part of potty learning. They don't spray cleaner or anything, but I'll have them changes clothes and bag the wet ones, give them a big wad of paper towels and show them how to wipe up the liquid, put the wad in a plastic bag, then wash their hands really well. I'm super calm and nonchalant about it all. "Oops, you had an accident! You must have forgotten to listen to your body; that's okay, it happens. Let's change clothes...okay, now we need to clean this up..." After they go back to what they were doing, I give the floor a spritz with cleaner and wipe it up again.

I have them wipe up their spilled milk/water, too, and if they drop their lunch on the floor they pick that up too.

It's not punishment...it's responsible. I see it as part of learning to be a good "citizen" and responsible for their own actions. Even when it's an accident.

Am I really that unusual?
I did all of this with my own children, and with my daycare kids, too, but I don't have my daycare kids clean up any urine puddles (or feces, obviously). As we saw in the other thread, there is a stigma attached to it and in our complaint and sue happy society it just isn't something I'm going to do.
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  #13  
Old 10-26-2012, 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Willow View Post
There are much better more age appropriate ways to promote responsibility though imho. A child cleaning up a urine or poop accident isn't the only, or anywhere near the best, way to go about instilling that value.

With my foster care license it was literally against regs to ask a child of ANY age to do it because of the issues it has the potential to cause or how often adults would abuse it. I had a 6 and 8 year old sibling set once, both had issues with having "accidents." Although they would obviously clean themselves up anything else fell to me, and I was not allowed to even furrow my brow about it.

Studies have shown it's THAT big of a detriment. Although it was very often challenging to deal with it went along with the job. Same goes for childcare, again imho.

I don't see how encouraging a child to help clean up their own urine or feces accidents is going to assist them in learning anything really. In fact, I'd be inclined to believe frequent contact with the pee and poo could very well desensitize a child to the ick factor of it all, and actually encourage them to feel comfortable with it touching them. What's the difference between cleaning up urine with your hands and having it down your pants and on your legs? For some toddlers I can't imagine it would be that big of a stretch.


That said I don't believe in potty "training" at all. If kids are actually ready there should be no accidents, so my perspective is a little different lol.
That's okay. Our views can be different on this. You do it differently; doesn't make me wrong. It's just different approaches.

Foster care is totally different from child care...I could never do foster care because it's not in my personality to feel comfortable caring for kids coming from traumatic situations to be in foster care in the first place. Does that make me a bad person? NO. I know my limits. I am not terribly interested in ever doing geriatric care either, like at a nursing home or something. And I couldn't ever handle being a nurse either.
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Old 10-26-2012, 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Willow View Post

Studies have shown it's THAT big of a detriment. Although it was very often challenging to deal with it went along with the job. Same goes for childcare, again imho.

I don't see how encouraging a child to help clean up their own urine or feces accidents is going to assist them in learning anything really. In fact, I'd be inclined to believe frequent contact with the pee and poo could very well desensitize a child to the ick factor of it all, and actually encourage them to feel comfortable with it touching them. What's the difference between cleaning up urine with your hands and having it down your pants and on your legs? For some toddlers I can't imagine it would be that big of a stretch.
I would be interested to read these studies.

I agree with the other ladies and ask children to help clean to their abilities. If they dribble pee on the toilet seat I also ask them to wipe that up. I ask my 2+yo children to also wipe their own noses before I do a final wipe. My own kids are expected to rinse the sink after they brush their teeth. My 2+yos still in diapers get a clean diaper out of their cubby at change time. These are all the same to me and are learning to have responsibility for your body and the messes it can make. If you are gentle, kind, and have age appropriate expectations then I also believe it makes for a healthy psyche. But I am open minded and would like to read why it could be damaging to clean up after yourself.
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Old 10-26-2012, 08:51 AM
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I am so glad someone fessed up to it because I do the same thing. It's not a punishment thing and I don't make a big deal about it. I just have them help wipe with a paper towel and then wash their hands really good. Then I go over it again with disinfectant and wash my hands. I don't have them clean up feces though.

I am actually proud of my bunch because now my kids automatically wipe any urine drips off the toilet seat when they're done. Is that so wrong ?
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  #16  
Old 10-26-2012, 08:53 AM
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I agree that is depends on the child's age and maturity level. A child that is just learning to use the toilet no way would be made to clean up, I would have them watch me do it and explain what I am doing.
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Old 10-26-2012, 08:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Willow View Post
That said I don't believe in potty "training" at all. If kids are actually ready there should be no accidents, so my perspective is a little different lol.
This is what I believe in as well and I havn't had a potty training "accident" yet in my DC. I personally don't participate in potty training in daycare until I believe that the child is ready and I have yet to have a potty training accident happen in my home. I have had a 4 yo already potty trained DCB wet himself a bit ago but it was strange for him and it turned out he had a bladder infection ... not exactly a potty training accident. In his case I had him change his own clothes and leave them in the bathroom sink. I bagged his clothes and cleaned the sink (it didn't get anywhere else). If I did have a DCK have a potty training accident I'd probably to the same if only because I'd want that mess cleaned up quickly where spilled milk could wait.

I teach enough about responsibility through other ways that I doubt that it would really matter if I had them clean their accidents or not. They clean up the toys they use, take one bin out at a time, use the toys properly or have them taken away, clean up their own spills and dishes after meals and snacks etc.

PS: Urine is only sterile while it is in the body of a healthy person. Some people that feel healthy may get infections and have bacteria in their urine and not even know it. You don't want to know how many times I've gone to the Dr's for my dose of birth control and my urine results showed that I had a UTI. Bladder infections and UTI's are more common in kids than you think and I personally wouldn't want to take the risk of having one child with a bladder infection touch his/her urine and possibly contaminate daycare equipment. If I knew for sure that there was no possibility of infection then I wouldn't see it as a big deal as long as it wasn't as a form of punushment like many of you ladies have said.

Here is an interesting read that may get you to ponder:
ScienceDaily: Study Debunks Common Myth That Urine Is Sterile 2012
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Old 10-26-2012, 09:06 AM
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PS: Urine is only sterile while it is in the body of a healthy person. Some people that feel healthy may get infections and have bacteria in their urine and not even know it. You don't want to know how many times I've gone to the Dr's for my dose of birth control and my urine results showed that I had a UTI. Bladder infections and UTI's are more common in kids than you think and I personally wouldn't want to take the risk of having one child with a bladder infection touch his/her urine and possibly contaminate daycare equipment. If I knew for sure that there was no possibility of infection then I wouldn't see it as a big deal as long as it wasn't as a form of punushment like many of you ladies have said.

Here is an interesting read that may get you to ponder:
ScienceDaily: Study Debunks Common Myth That Urine Is Sterile 2012
Here is another: http://aem.asm.org/content/70/12/7365.full

I concede . Cleaning up Urine or Milk present a trivial amount of health risk.

I feel the bigger issue with this whole topic is the public perception, not actual risk.
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Old 10-26-2012, 09:16 AM
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I agree that is depends on the child's age and maturity level. A child that is just learning to use the toilet no way would be made to clean up, I would have them watch me do it and explain what I am doing.
Yes! This too.
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Old 10-26-2012, 09:17 AM
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I would be interested to read these studies.

Which ones specifically?

The ones that have proved making a child feel ashamed (intentionally or unintentionally) for having a toilet accident is profoundly damaging to a child's psyche? The one's that have proved potty "training" is essentially pointless? The ones that have proved early training (before the age of 2.5) actually changes the structure of the bladder and rectum?
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Old 10-26-2012, 09:33 AM
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I feel the bigger issue with this whole topic is the public perception, not actual risk.

I do agree with this.

In this day and age if a provider can near lose her license for putting a child in time out is it worth the risk of having them clean up what a lot of adults themselves can't stomach? I can only imagine the issues many licensing departments would have with it.
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Old 10-26-2012, 09:49 AM
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Here is another: http://aem.asm.org/content/70/12/7365.full

I concede . Cleaning up Urine or Milk present a trivial amount of health risk.

I feel the bigger issue with this whole topic is the public perception, not actual risk.
Agreed. The article does say that it's the raw milk that may pose a risk. I personally don't serve, eat or drink anything made of raw milk. Of course I do eat raw oysters and those seem to have a warning attached to them as well .
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Old 10-26-2012, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Willow View Post
Which ones specifically?

The ones that have proved making a child feel ashamed (intentionally or unintentionally) for having a toilet accident is profoundly damaging to a child's psyche? The one's that have proved potty "training" is essentially pointless? The ones that have proved early training (before the age of 2.5) actually changes the structure of the bladder and rectum?
The one that shows having a healthy, developmentally normal child help clean up a pee accident is damaging. I'm ho estly interested. I have never had a daycare child have a potty accident here but I have four kids of my own so a few have happened over the years. I usually say, "Oh sweetie you had an accident. Accidents happen so lets clean it up and move on." It honestly never occurred to me that this matter of fact view would be damaging or shaming.
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Old 10-26-2012, 10:14 AM
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And we wonder why society is crumbling. Now we can't enlist the help of a 3 year old with wiping up a little bit of their own pee pee? Maybe I have only cared for genius 3 year olds who understand cause and effect and taking responsibility for their actions- I have yet to come across a child who was psychologically damaged from being taught proper toileting.
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Old 10-26-2012, 10:15 AM
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What age does it become ok to clean itup?
My guess would be when the parent says the child old enough.

IMHO, This is one of those times having a written "Toileting" policy is important. Professionally Speaking, It is not about age, it is about politics and liability.

Some parents feel their child is not "old enough" to clean it up if they are "young enough" to still be having accidents.

Some parents feel they paid you to do it FOR their child so it is part of your job. (this is where my clients are )

Some even spank for accidents at home, making our potty-time an absolute nightmare.

Anything to do with closed doors, naked bottoms and excrement is going to be a touchy subject.
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Old 10-26-2012, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Willow View Post
Which ones specifically?

The ones that have proved making a child feel ashamed (intentionally or unintentionally) for having a toilet accident is profoundly damaging to a child's psyche? The one's that have proved potty "training" is essentially pointless? The ones that have proved early training (before the age of 2.5) actually changes the structure of the bladder and rectum?
Those all sound extremely interesting to me and I would LOVE to read them!! I had no idea it changed the structure of the bladder and rectum.
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Old 10-26-2012, 10:43 AM
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I think in the other thread people imagined a child sprawled out over a lake of urine and wiping it up. Usually the clothes catch most of the potty and there isn't much to clean up. I agree with you....this is how they learn. You mess it up, you clean it up. Logical consequence. Now diarrhea or vomit.....problably not the best teachable moment!
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Old 10-26-2012, 10:50 AM
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I do agree with this.

In this day and age if a provider can near lose her license for putting a child in time out is it worth the risk of having them clean up what a lot of adults themselves can't stomach? I can only imagine the issues many licensing departments would have with it.
True...this would probably sway me to NOT have them clean it up. I am terrified of being sued. Getting scary out there!
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Old 10-26-2012, 11:01 AM
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I do agree with this.

In this day and age if a provider can near lose her license for putting a child in time out is it worth the risk of having them clean up what a lot of adults themselves can't stomach? I can only imagine the issues many licensing departments would have with it.
This is true. I hope it's a long time before I have an insection , but when she does come out, I'm going to ask her this question.
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Old 10-26-2012, 11:07 AM
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I think in the other thread people imagined a child sprawled out over a lake of urine and wiping it up. Usually the clothes catch most of the potty and there isn't much to clean up. I agree with you....this is how they learn. You mess it up, you clean it up. Logical consequence. Now diarrhea or vomit.....problably not the best teachable moment!
I think it had alot to do with the dcp's general attitude towards alot of thing. I don't think this was the type of dcp that had alot of patience and in my head from what was explained about him, I can picture him standing there with his hands on his hips while the child was cleaning it up. I think maybe that was the concern.

There have been so many children killed because of accidents. I'm not saying in daycare settings, but by parents.
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Old 10-26-2012, 11:18 AM
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The one that shows having a healthy, developmentally normal child help clean up a pee accident is damaging.
I never made that claim though.

What I said is a child feeling shamed for accidents (via a furrowed brow, punishment, yelling or the like) has great potential to be damaging.





ECS - give me a minute to dig some of that information up
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Old 10-26-2012, 11:21 AM
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I never made that claim though.

What I said is a child feeling shamed for accidents (via a furrowed brow, punishment, yelling or the like) has great potential to be damaging.





ECS - give me a minute to dig some of that information up
Thanks girl! I would LOVE to send home some articles to my overeager parents. It stresses all of us out.
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Old 10-26-2012, 11:43 AM
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http://www.babble.com/toddler/toddle...raining-early/

http://www.aafp.org/afp/2008/1101/p1059.html


There are study links and citations listed in the above links. Most of what I have on hand is written information from trainings I've taken and I can't locate it online!

Basically everything that's written in the above supports what I've been taught in recent years and the choices I've made for my own kids.
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Old 10-26-2012, 11:49 AM
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http://www.babble.com/toddler/toddle...raining-early/

http://www.aafp.org/afp/2008/1101/p1059.html


There are study links and citations listed in the above links. Most of what I have on hand is written information from trainings I've taken and I can't locate it online!

Basically everything that's written in the above supports what I've been taught in recent years and the choices I've made for my own kids.
Thank you! I just posted the dangers one on my DC's facebook page. One Mom is having issues now with UTI's and bedwetting from her 3.5-year-old who was potty trained awhile back. This could be why!
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Old 10-26-2012, 12:33 PM
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I have to wonder that if we do ask children to help with cleaning themselves/the area after an accident if it would take the stigma off. It makes no sense that the person responsible for the accident would hand off the clean up to another person. That isn't how it works in the adult world and I feel that my job as a parent and caregiver is to have them grow to be responsible, caring adults.

IMO, I think that by having the child clean it up WITH a parent/caregiver, it takes the stigma off and makes it a teachable moment that has nothing to do with the potty. By teaching a child how to gracefully handle an accidental situation, I feel that it makes it very valuable moment. You are teaching patience by your own reaction, personal responsibility by their cleaning up, and team work by working together. By having this sort of policy from day one, it would teach that accidents are normal, to be expected, and not a big deal.

On the other hand, I can see that a child who has never been asked to clean up an accident and then is at 4/5 years old would be shamed by this. But I have to wonder that if we just have an inclusive attitude about accidents from day one if these feelings would ever arise. After all, I don't find it shaming to clean up someone else's accidents, so why should they feel ashamed to clean up their own unless that is the stigma attached.

But, I personally think this age of avoidance and babying is a little extreme. Kids have less responsibility than ever and it isn't to their advantage. This generation of kids is going to have issues in the real world. I'm not a hard a$$, but I do feel that most kids will rise to the expectations set forth. Kids need responsibility to grow strong and I am just not sold on the idea that less responsibility grow people of character.

Sorry -- that was way longer than expected and a little off topic!
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Old 10-26-2012, 12:46 PM
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I have to wonder that if we do ask children to help with cleaning themselves/the area after an accident if it would take the stigma off. It makes no sense that the person responsible for the accident would hand off the clean up to another person. That isn't how it works in the adult world and I feel that my job as a parent and caregiver is to have them grow to be responsible, caring adults.

IMO, I think that by having the child clean it up WITH a parent/caregiver, it takes the stigma off and makes it a teachable moment that has nothing to do with the potty. By teaching a child how to gracefully handle an accidental situation, I feel that it makes it very valuable moment. You are teaching patience by your own reaction, personal responsibility by their cleaning up, and team work by working together. By having this sort of policy from day one, it would teach that accidents are normal, to be expected, and not a big deal.

On the other hand, I can see that a child who has never been asked to clean up an accident and then is at 4/5 years old would be shamed by this. But I have to wonder that if we just have an inclusive attitude about accidents from day one if these feelings would ever arise. After all, I don't find it shaming to clean up someone else's accidents, so why should they feel ashamed to clean up their own unless that is the stigma attached.

But, I personally think this age of avoidance and babying is a little extreme. Kids have less responsibility than ever and it isn't to their advantage. This generation of kids is going to have issues in the real world. I'm not a hard a$$, but I do feel that most kids will rise to the expectations set forth. Kids need responsibility to grow strong and I am just not sold on the idea that less responsibility grow people of character.

Sorry -- that was way longer than expected and a little off topic!
I don't think it's off topic at all! I think you have a very valid point and it's sort of what I've been thinking all day.
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Old 10-26-2012, 12:57 PM
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I don't get mad. I don't have them clean up the puddle. But, I do hand them an empty bag, clean clothes and send them into the bathroom to fix themselves. I don't help them dress or undress.....especially undress. If they are too young to undress themselves and put it in a bag, they are too young for undies.

I'll admit.. I do get a little mad when they pee right on my bathroom floor. I'm thinking "You came in here..and and then...what?"
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Old 10-26-2012, 01:09 PM
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I don't get mad. I don't have them clean up the puddle. But, I do hand them an empty bag, clean clothes and send them into the bathroom to fix themselves. I don't help them dress or undress.....especially undress. If they are too young to undress themselves and put it in a bag, they are too young for undies.

I'll admit.. I do get a little mad when they pee right on my bathroom floor. I'm thinking "You came in here..and and then...what?"
I keep a large beach towel in the bathroom for this very reason. The large puddles right in front of the toilet take a loooot of towel to soak up.
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Old 10-26-2012, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by JenNJ View Post
I have to wonder that if we do ask children to help with cleaning themselves/the area after an accident if it would take the stigma off. It makes no sense that the person responsible for the accident would hand off the clean up to another person. That isn't how it works in the adult world and I feel that my job as a parent and caregiver is to have them grow to be responsible, caring adults.

IMO, I think that by having the child clean it up WITH a parent/caregiver, it takes the stigma off and makes it a teachable moment that has nothing to do with the potty. By teaching a child how to gracefully handle an accidental situation, I feel that it makes it very valuable moment. You are teaching patience by your own reaction, personal responsibility by their cleaning up, and team work by working together. By having this sort of policy from day one, it would teach that accidents are normal, to be expected, and not a big deal.

On the other hand, I can see that a child who has never been asked to clean up an accident and then is at 4/5 years old would be shamed by this. But I have to wonder that if we just have an inclusive attitude about accidents from day one if these feelings would ever arise. After all, I don't find it shaming to clean up someone else's accidents, so why should they feel ashamed to clean up their own unless that is the stigma attached.

But, I personally think this age of avoidance and babying is a little extreme. Kids have less responsibility than ever and it isn't to their advantage. This generation of kids is going to have issues in the real world. I'm not a hard a$$, but I do feel that most kids will rise to the expectations set forth. Kids need responsibility to grow strong and I am just not sold on the idea that less responsibility grow people of character.

Sorry -- that was way longer than expected and a little off topic!
Very well put!! I completely agree.
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Old 10-26-2012, 03:17 PM
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I have two year olds that can completely dress themselves and do a pretty good job of it. I think gets are getting less and less responsiblities handed to them. I actually had a 10 year old that still wore velcro because they couldn't tie their shoes!
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Old 10-26-2012, 03:29 PM
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This is a spin off from this thread in the Parents and Guardians forum. I decided to start a different thread so as to not derail the other one.

I guess I'm about to get flamed here but...

I *do* have kids clean up their messes, and that includes accidents. It's part of potty learning. They don't spray cleaner or anything, but I'll have them changes clothes and bag the wet ones, give them a big wad of paper towels and show them how to wipe up the liquid, put the wad in a plastic bag, then wash their hands really well. I'm super calm and nonchalant about it all. "Oops, you had an accident! You must have forgotten to listen to your body; that's okay, it happens. Let's change clothes...okay, now we need to clean this up..." After they go back to what they were doing, I give the floor a spritz with cleaner and wipe it up again.

I have them wipe up their spilled milk/water, too, and if they drop their lunch on the floor they pick that up too.

It's not punishment...it's responsible. I see it as part of learning to be a good "citizen" and responsible for their own actions. Even when it's an accident.

Am I really that unusual?
I do this with potty issues over the age of 3, and anytime they spill beverage at the table they help clean it up. It's natural consequences and teaches them responsibility.
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Old 10-26-2012, 04:35 PM
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Is it to late to turn this into a poll? I would like to see it on that perspective.

It seems that people are saying they would have the child clean it up but not sure. Thats why a poll might be nice.
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Old 10-29-2012, 02:12 PM
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I have two year olds that can completely dress themselves and do a pretty good job of it. I think gets are getting less and less responsiblities handed to them. I actually had a 10 year old that still wore velcro because they couldn't tie their shoes!
You've got to be joking about the 10 year old!!!
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Old 10-29-2012, 02:21 PM
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You've got to be joking about the 10 year old!!!
Sadly I'm not-
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Old 10-29-2012, 02:53 PM
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OT but most dyslexic children struggle greatly with tying their shoes.


Many are never able to learn how to. Not due to lack of initiative, but because mentally they cannot process the sequence when combined with the manual dexterity needed to complete the task.

Literally like the adage it's impossible for some to chew gum and walk at the same time.



I have a child who is moderately to severely affected by dyslexia (depending on...) and some people judge her as an idiot and peg me as lazy or neglectful due to some of her more prominent deficits.

Some people think they have a right to scoff and snub because they have a very small piece of the picture.


They don't.
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Old 10-29-2012, 03:03 PM
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OT but most dyslexic children struggle greatly with tying their shoes.


Many are never able to learn how to. Not due to lack of initiative, but because mentally they cannot process the sequence when combined with the manual dexterity needed to complete the task.

Literally like the adage it's impossible for some to chew gum and walk at the same time.



I have a child who is moderately to severely affected by dyslexia (depending on...) and some people judge her as an idiot and peg me as lazy or neglectful due to some of her more prominent deficits.

Some people think they have a right to scoff and snub because they have a very small piece of the picture.


They don't.
Well noted...

I believe Country and I were speaking in the context of a perfectly normal child who does not know how to tie their shoes due to lazy parenting, not a child with a medical condition (neither of which are the child's fault).

I'm not scoffing or snubbing the child- but the laziness of the parent who never bothered to teach a fully capable child.
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Old 10-29-2012, 03:13 PM
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Well noted...

I believe Country and I were speaking in the context of a perfectly normal child who does not know how to tie their shoes due to lazy parenting, not a child with a medical condition (neither of which are the child's fault).

I'm not scoffing or snubbing the child- but the laziness of the parent who never bothered to teach a fully capable child.
I agree, I have a boy who is 11 and delayed and he is learning to tie his shoes, which is great for him because he really wants to learn. But In my ds's class many kids don't know how to tie their shoes because it takes time to learn. Its like riding a bike too, I'm finding kids are older before their training wheels are taken off, oh wait, I don't see to many kids riding a bike. My ydd was 4 when she learned to ride a 2 wheeler, at the age of 5 she learned to tie her shoes and my son was 7 at the time (shamelessly I forgot to teach my ds thats why he was 7)
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Old 10-29-2012, 03:21 PM
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ok you guys can all cyber smack me....

My son who is now 17 could not get himself ready to go, fully dressed when he was 7 years old. WHY? Because at the time, I was a single mother with two kids working multiple jobs. Often flying out the front door every morning trying to get the kids to daycare so that I could get to work on time. I was not one for the battles, so when my kids would refuse to get dressed in the morning, I just did it for them so that we could be on time..... I know horrible, but it was that or be late every day. Trust me when I tell you that I did try everything under the son to help it.

It was not until I started doing daycare that I realized OMG my kids are helpless. I then didn't need to be anywhere on time, except the kids making it on the school bus in the am. I did not have to spend time getting myslef ready, so they were my entire focus. When I came to this realization, I was sooooooo embarrassed.

I think that a lot of it depends on what the parents are or are not doing for their kids at home...... So many parents don't want to battle the kids, so they just do it for them....
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Old 10-29-2012, 03:48 PM
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Well noted...

I believe Country and I were speaking in the context of a perfectly normal child who does not know how to tie their shoes due to lazy parenting, not a child with a medical condition (neither of which are the child's fault).

I'm not scoffing or snubbing the child- but the laziness of the parent who never bothered to teach a fully capable child.

My daughter is perfectly normal though.

And how could anyone determine that by just looking at a given child anyway?

Anyone that looked at her would not be able to accurately assume she learns differently than other kids. Most of her teachers don't know right off the bat because of everything we've done at home to get her to the fourth grade without so much as a 504 plan.

It's not a medical condition she suffers from (at least according to our insurance company who refused to pay for the bills wracked up get her officially tested and diagnosed as disabled($850 - it's no wonder there are so many children that are dyslexic who never receive the proper diagnosis) or the subsequent tutoring that followed ($45/hour/twice a week) lol).


My point is, it's easy to peg a child this, that or the other. But unless you're the parent (and sometimes not even then) there is no way to know for sure whether a delay is due to "laziness" or something else. People wouldn't respond with shock, horror or saddness if they looked at a boy in a wheelchair and discovered he couldn't walk, as if he should be able to naturally. But two year old who otherwise looks healthy and can't walk? He and his parents may face quite a bit of judgment based on outward perceptions of what the mind just jumps to.

I'll admit I am overly sensitive to it because my daughter and our family have been mislabeled in such hurtful ways...just trying to open minds that we may not always know even when we believe the issue and cause is obvious....
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Old 10-29-2012, 04:36 PM
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This child is fine developmentally believe me! It was just because the parents kept buying velcro and would tie the shoes when needed. The parents knew it was helping the child and finally taught them how to do it. I think the child got to big for velcro shoes!

I know Willow in your case you know the reasoning but I felt very judged by posting something that I personally knew the reasoning 100% was the not teaching the child self help skills.

Just because a child can't do something doesn't mean they have a disiability!
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