I've heard (read) you say that you don't do motion-soothing with babies, so I thought you might have a few ideas for me. I have a new 3mo dcb, comes only 3 afternoons a week. He CANNOT sleep unless I rock him. Even if I could do that, I don't want to - I have other kids here that need my attention. The few times he has fallen asleep (to the bottle, or just from me rocking to calm him) he will start screaming (even before his eyes are open) as soon as I put him in the pnp. I've tried letting him CIO, but he doesn't tire, just screams like he's in pain. I always check to make sure he has a full belly, burps, clean/dry diaper, etc. The thing is, dcp's hold him a lot. Also, he ONLY sleeps in his swing at home (even at night!!!). Even if I had a swing, I couldn't nap him there, it's against my regs. Do you have any tips for me? Or does he need one-on-one care? We're still in our trial period, and I have no problem telling mom that I can't meet his needs, but thought I should try to see if this is "fixable" before giving up.

The other part of this is, his hours are 1-5, so it extends over nap time. My house is not big enough to allow the other littles to actually sleep if dcb is screaming. I have only one other child here now, and he can sleep through anything, but I have 2 more starting in a few weeks, so I'm pretty much wanting to fix this before the new ones start.

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Yeah I don't think this is doable.

Sorry but I can't even think of a way to get him and gravity to make friends with that short daily schedule that is only three days a week.

I would tell the parents about positional asphyxia because they are really endangering him allowing him to sleep while they are sleeping in that equipment. They could loose him over this. It's not worth it. He's at a prime age to die from it.

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I am having a similar problem. I have dcb who is now 4m and is only here in the afternoons. He had trouble sleeping. Also it was the other kids nap times too and I ran out of a room to put him in, and I was not about to rock him to sleep. So I put him in the pnp when it was time to nap, it is in the living room so he can see me. That helped a little but I still dont know if I will keep him for a long time if I cannot get him to nap when the others do when he is a little bit older. I am going to give him 4 more months I think.

Its frustrating because I need a break and nap time is the only time for that as we all know.

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Thanks Nan, that's pretty much what I was thinking too, but thought I would ask anyway.

Mom and I talked yesterday, and I told her I couldn't sleep him in the swing for safety reasons, but she didn't even ask what those were. I think I will find something that I can print out for her and give it to her at pick up. There's probably something in my licensing handbook that I can copy for her.

Mommymuffin - my dcb is also in pnp in my living room so he can see me, and so he doesn't disturb the others too much. i don't think he really cares if he can see me or not, he wants me to be holding him. He is rarely content anywhere except when I'm holding him. Any activity I can engage him in lasts 5-10 min before he starts wailing.

Now I just need to figure out if I should tell mom today that I can't meet his needs, or talk to her about the dangers of sleeping in the swing and see if they work with him to sleep in his crib.

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maybe its just me, but at such a young age, I would do anything to help him sleep. My dd was breastfed (forever--acually till 3yrs) I would put all the kids down for a sleep first, wait maybe 15 min and then nurse her till she fell asleep. It worked fine. My dd was a child who was a needy child and there was nothing you could do but carry her (thank goodness for slings)

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Getting him to sleep is not the problem - yesterday I "got" him to sleep 4 times in that short 4 hours he was here. However, every time I went to lay him down he started screaming! 4 times in 4 hours of getting him to sleep just to have him wake up cranky and tired and wouldn't go back to sleep unless/until I picked him back up and rocked him. Over and over again. Even if he was my only dck, no way would I want to enforce that habit of not sleeping unless he was in my arms! I will not rock him all through nap. That doesn't help me any, and it sure isn't helping him to learn to self-soothe!

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Yes I think the child's parents think this too. When you do this you end up with a child that can't cope without having CONSTANT adult generated input. The adults are outsourcing it by using battery operated motion and are putting him in danger to make sure he doesn't cry.

Healthy human babies don't need help sleeping. They are designed to sleep a good portion of the 24 hour day as newborns. When you get in the business of "helping" babies sleep they can't sleep without help.

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Surprisingly, dcb actually slept for 15 minutes in pnp today, and has been in there, playing/laying there quietly for the last 45 minutes. No swing, no bouncy seat, no rocking him. He's been very calm for the most part today! I still don't think I have enough time to ween him from the swing to sleep, but today has been much better than it has been so far!!

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He needs to learn to self-soothe. If you let him cry for awhile, he will eventually find his fingers to suck on to help him self-soothe. You may even try putting his fingers in his mouth for him a couple of times to see if he'll go for it.

How is he when he's awake? If he's generally happy when awake, you can probably work through this. I would try to get Mom on the same page with you....talk to her about the need to put him to bed AWAKE, and allow him to cry if he needs to. Generally, if you put a tired child down AWAKE, with a mobile or mirror, they will "talk" to themselves and given a little time, fall asleep on their own. Once they KNOW HOW to fall asleep on their own, they will. When you rock them or feed them UNTIL they go to sleep, you are disturbing the sleep cycle when you put them down and it starts all over again.

Tell Mom, lay him down AWAKE, tell him night-night and you love him, walk away, let him cry for 10 minutes (if he does) walk in if he doesn't stop, rub his back BRIEFLY, gently reassure that "it's time for night-nights, shhhh, it's okay, go night-night" walk away, repeat. DO NOT PICK HIM UP. He has to KNOW that you are not going to give in. This should only take a few days before he realizes that the screaming will not get him picked up and will give him time to learn to self-soothe.

good luck.

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I'm not sure if this is allowed or not, we never have kids that young in Canada or very very rarely, because we get 1 yr mat leave. But I had to do this with my little guy. He was the same, get him to sleep and then the second you put him in bed, screamed. Had to be held all the time. So I'd stand there at the crib, with my hand holding his head up just enough, and then I'd feed him, as he dozed off and finished bottle, I'd sneak away.

Not saying this is how you should do it, but it may get him used to not being rocked to sleep in a short period of time, and then you could maybe manage.

The other thing that worked well, was bum patting....laying on the side, gently pat his bum till he falls asleep.
I know how hard it is to devote so much time to one kid when you have others, but these were the ways I managed to get my guy to sleep, when I had 2 others of my own who needed just as much attention.

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Does anyone have any info on this? I'm looking for a one page printout to give to mom and am not finding anything!!

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http://www.idph.state.ia.us/hcci/com...ositioning.pdf

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thats why I'm so glad we don't kids so young, thats so crazy. I forgot about standing over the crib. I use to do this too and worked really good and so did the bum patting (I have no idea why but it works too)
I want to add, that I feel so bad for this young child, I just can't fathom that people have to leave their babies in daycare so early, they are defensless and just want attention, hugging and cuddling.

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Thanks Nan - exactly what I was looking for!

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Here in the states, most maternity leave is 6-8 weeks! And, depending on the job that mom does, may not get any "actual" maternity leave at all!

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Thanks Nanny De!

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At your service as always

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Have I ever mentioned being SO jealous of Canada for exactly that reason? (Well, and others, but that's a big one). How's the demand for home childcare or high school teachers in Canada ? I've vaguely considered moving there just to get away from some of the dumb things in America.

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I am going to get a hold of you sometime I am in Des Moines!

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When my oldest ds was a baby, I had the EXACT same problem. He'd fall asleep nursing, out cold, pu him down in his crib ever so slowly....bam! He's awake. What I did that worked like a dream was before I started feeding him( or about 10-15 min. before I put him down for nap) I would lay a heating pad in his crib. When I was ready to put him down, I would remove the pad, and his bed would be nice and warm!! AND he would stay asleep!! I did this for about 2 weeks, then I gradually lowered the heat each time until it wasn't even on. It worked SO WELL! Maybe you could give it a try!

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Thanks, I'll try that. He's so warm all the time though that I kind of figured that if the pnp was a little cooler it would actually feel better. But I've also given some thought to swaddling, since it worked well with other babies when they fell asleep and I had to move them from me (warm) to pnp (cold).

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Interesting article.

Nan, since u take babies how do u keep your sanity while dealing with the crying? My now 6 month dcg is just now getting the whole lay down and play or sleep. I used the CIO method. There were many days I diddnt think I would make it. My BP was about to explode

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This is probably off topic but I have meaning to ask what others do in this situation....above Crystal says "rub his back" which is what I did with both of my girls. BUT babies are suppose to sleep on their backs (mine didn't) although I always put daycare babies on their back, but how do you sooth a screaming baby that is staring up at you when they are laying on their back. You can't rub their back or pat their bums, two things that always worked for my girls.

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For healthy babies over three months:

I have space to separate them from the other kids and a nursery that was built with excellent soundproofing. I have solid core doors. I have separate sleeping rooms for the infants and the older kids. I have portable cameras with portable bases so I can put cameras on them and have a receiver wherever I am in the house. I also have a Staff Assistant so there is someone here with me during prime time.

I just have a really good set up to manage crying so that we can see them but not hear them. I can make my decisions based on what I see and what I know and NOT on how it makes me feel and not on what other kids it is affecting.

I'm not super woman and I KNOW that. I know that I'm flesh and bone just like everyone else and I need to keep myself in CHECK. This is why I have put in a lot of measures to make sure we have a safe, quiet, comfortable place for babies to get their cry on if they need some time for crying.

I don't take it personally and I don't try to solve all crying. I know babies and I know that they all need some time to exercise and blow steam. I try not to intefere with that. I don't use motion solving for ANY kind of crying. I don't swaddle. I don't use pacifiers. I don't like high stimulation for soothing. I do use sleep sacks with the hands folded over. Covering the hands with nice thick soft material is something I have found that really helps. I keep the rooms pitch black dark and cool and the clothing on the kid nice and warm.

I do a LOT of belly time from day one. I do a "rotational grazing" of play yard, play pen, boppy, bouncy seats, sit up seats, feeding, sleeping, going out for a walk. I have excellent old school high quality equipment for every size and age baby. I try to rotate them thru everything we have for them and do it in an order that really promotes balance in the baby.

I do kind of the opposite with crying than most. I do not rock when they are upset, I rock when they are happy. I don't walk them while they are crying... I walk them when they are happy. I don't use swings much but when I do it is ONLY when they are happy and there is an adult within a few feet of them every second.

I put them to bed WIDE AWAKE every day every nap. I don't allow them to fall asleep while eating. I keep them awake during eating and then have them sit up for a bit before nap. I want them awake when they are put into bed.

Once nap time has started I do not take them out of bed unless they have to have a diaper change. I do that in the darkened room and just put them back. I go in and check the room every ten minutes or so and they get used to me coming in and out. I get them used to noise at nap so they don't respond to it after they have been here a while.

So these are some of the measures I have in place to manage crying. It's important that we ALL stay happy and have as calm as an enviornment as we can. I am the center of the universe here in making sure that everyone gets what they need and that we can make this work safely for years and years. It's on me to make that happen.

Year after year after year I have excelent babies. We have very very little crying going on here. Once they are used to our ways they usually only cry when they need to eat, need a change, or need a new point of view. Once they are about a year old they can go days and days in between crying. By 18 months it can be weeks. By two it's nearly nonexistant. So with this we don't have the fussing of the OTHER kids when we are integrating new babies. That helps a LOT too.

Having a CALM environment with stable kids really helps bring stability to the new babies.

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Yes, you should put babies to sleep on their backs. BUT, once they are old enough to roll over to their tummies, they typically end up sleeping on their tummies. It isn't neccessary to roll them back over to their backs. ( I can see some parents actually standing by to roll baby every time they move )So, by three months old, you should be able to comfort a baby by rubbing their back/patting their bum.

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Wow I've never had a three month old that could flip either from back to belly or belly to back.

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Really? All of mine did. I think that has a bit to do with the fact hat I use absolutley no baby holders....no bouncers, swings, high chairs, exersaucers, etc. They tend to do stuff earlier when they aren't confined to equipment.

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http://www.babycenter.com/0_mileston...ths_1496585.bc

This chart shows that at three months babies roll from tummy to back. By 5 months, back to tummy. So, for SOME three month olds, you wouldn't be able to rub the back when sleeping as they may not be rolling from back to tummy yet. But, mine did (probably somewhere between 3 and 5 months, not EXACTLY 3 months) and I'd say MOST of my dck did.

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I've never had a baby roll from back to stomach at 3 months. Usually they roll from stomach to back at close to 4 months and then from back to stomach a month or two later.

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None of my dck's have done that, and the 3mo I have now isn't even close to being able to roll either way!

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Rolling from back to belly at three months because they aren't "confined". Now I have heard it all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In this case earlier is NOT better.

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okay. I am not going to debate it with you. Back to the regularly scheduled topic....

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I'm a little jealous of you guys for being able to take on such itty bitty babies! Usually since moms in Canada stay home for a year, they figure out in that time how they can stay home until child starts school. Ugh. I love the itty bitties but I know that if I had a house full of kids it would be very difficult. Usually the earliest, not always but majority of the time, they are 9-12 months when we get them. They've already started moving around, discovering things, and have some nasty habits they have gotten away with. Especially if they are a first child.

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And be thankful for that.

If I had a kid that could roll back to belly at three months (you know the ones who you CAN pat their little butts to sleep) I would be a NERVOUS wreck during nap every day.

I've had a range of flippers... belly to back happens first and it's usually around the fifth month. The back to belly is usually around the sixth month.

I've seen that kids who are small and thin (wirey) are usually the earliest. The heavier babies are usually on the later side.

I've had them as late as eight months to roll with REALLY big babies.

It doesn't affect their outcome developmentally in any way so it's a care issue rather than a development issue. As long as they can flip by the eigth-ninth month you are good to go in the fliipping department.

Because the liklihood of SIDS is SO much higher in the second to the sixth month I would never wish "early" development in the back to belly flip. The babies are not always under a watchful eye as they are in day care. They sleep all night without an adult watching them sleep.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/sud...ndrome/DS00145

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No debate

If I was DOING something that assisted kids in flipping from back to belly at age three months I would STOP doing it.

Because of SIDS and all...................... the back to sleep and all..........

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I suggested side sleepers, but I guess that would be too controversial on here. lol.

AS for all the comments about babies rolling over etc by 3-5 mths, my nephew, when he was 1 month old, was already making his way across the living room. He is now 6 months old, and for the last month and a half he has been "crawling" he gets up and rocks on hands/knees, but then just sort of uses arms to crawl (like they do in the military) where he wants to go. He is extremely fast too. He has since he was 4 1/2 weeks old been able to roll himself completely over from back to belly and belly to back. Now I know my nephew is just exceptionally smart, and ridiculously advance but babies who get lots of tummy time develop faster with things like this. I know as daycare providers we can't spend as much time doing this, but it is a necessity. I know 9 month old babies, who can't even crawl yet, or roll over because they've spent all their time on their backs, and they are often the chubbiest babies of all. I state this only from what I've seen/experienced.

I agree with Nannyde though that it isn't something you necessarily want a baby to do because it is nerve racking. But if the baby is strong enough to flip and there isn't anything that can suffocate in the pnp/crib, it's not as scary as you might think. They will be able to turn their head. And before my kids slept on their tummies, I always watched them 100% when they did tummy time, and I'd stick my finger under their nose, and see if they'd turn their head every time. If they didn't then i never bothered with sleeping on tummy when I wasn't watching 100%.

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Hmmm....well, I have NEVER owned a bumbo seat, a swing, or used a playpen for anything other than nap. No equipment and oddly enough, never had a kid rolling over at 3 month. IF they were, I'd flip them back over.

Mine tend to roll closer to 5 months, at which point I let sleeping babies lie.

I think that whole implication that we are confining babies that don't roll according to some chart is offensive.

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Nannyde said: Wow I've never had a three month old that could flip either from back to belly or belly to back


It makes me wonder about the correlation with SIDS during this age (begining of second month to sixth month) if having a "no baby holders" = early (3-4 mo) back to belly flip = higher liklihood of SIDS.

Hmmmmmmm have to research that.

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I just noticed the no high-chair thing! So, are you holding babies to feed them?

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My niece (who I watch FT) has been rolling since 3 months. She only sleeps on her tummy, though, and has since birth. It was scary at first, because all my kids were raised on the back to sleep method. Since she is family, and mom did the tummy thing from birth, I was happy to continue while she was here but only under 100% supervision. When she is asleep she is never unsupervised. Either I'm with her, or my oldest daughter is with her if I have to potty / assist one of my own children for after school snack, homework. I don't use anything but pnp for sleeping. I don't do bouncy seats, swings, boppies (whatever those are) or high chairs. When she is awake (and she's 4 months now) she is on the floor rolling and playing with toys, and babbling to anyone who will listen. My youngest 2 LOVE when she has floor time because they sing and dance for her which sends her into fits of laughter and cooing.

I suppose my situation is different, because I'm more like a nanny/auntie. I can devote 100% of my time to my niece during the day (which I enjoy very much btw). When I did more of a daycare setting with 1 baby and 2 SA children...it was a nightmare. I love being able to do the one on one care.

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I've seen that before in the PICT training.

It was SO funny.

They showed a class of 30 providers this dvd and they get to that part where they show an adult holding a baby while feeding them baby food and the whole class went.......... GROOOOOOOOOOOOOAN all at the same time.

Priceless.

That was just ONE of their brilliant teachings. I kept thinking the whole time I was watching it ... "where ARE the OTHER kids?" They couldn't even film it without having one to one adult care. There were never any OTHER kids in the shot... of course.

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Weird. I did a quick and dirty as I remembered reading something about high-chairs and kids who fail to thrive. According to this peer reviewed study there is a correlation between kids who fail to thrive and those who don't use a high-chair. Something that might be worth a bit of investigation.


The essential link between energy needs and energy intake is feeding behaviour, yet few studies have directly observed feeding behaviour in children who have failed to thrive. A cohort of 961 term infants was screened to identify children with first year weight gain below the 5th centile in order to examine their feeding behaviour and food intake. A nested case-control study was used with direct observation at 13–21 months over two lunchtime meals, one consisting of finger foods and the other of ‘spoon foods’. Thirty children who failed to thrive and 57 controls were studied. The video-tapes were coded for feeding behaviour using a behavioural coding inventory which distinguishes between children feeding themselves and responding to being fed by their mother. The main outcome measures were counts of five feeding actions ( give, accept, feedself, refuse, reject) and measures of energy intake, the weight of food eaten and meal duration. There were systematic differences in feeding behaviour between meal types, with mothers feeding their child more often at meals comprising spoon foods and children feeding themselves more often at meals comprising finger foods. By weight, more food was consumed at the spoon food meals, but energy intake was no higher, showing that the children compensated for the differing energy yields of the foods. Children who failed to thrive took in less energy than controls, and were less likely to sit in a highchair throughout the meal, but there were no clear differences in other aspects of feeding behaviour. Food type is an important variable when studying childhood feeding behaviour. Children who fail to thrive take in less energy than controls of the same age, despite there being no major differences in mealtime feeding behaviour. [ABSTRACT FROM AUTHOR]
Copyright of Journal of Child Psychology & Psychiatry is the property of Wiley-Blackwell and its content may not be copied or emailed to multiple sites or posted to a listserv without the copyright holder's express written permission. However, users may print, download, or email articles for individual use. This abstract may be abridged. No warranty is given about the accuracy of the copy. Users should refer to the original published version of the material for the full abstract. (Copyright applies to all Abstracts.)

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Our regs say that ALL babies must be put to sleep on their backs. IF they can flip, we can leave them (although at 3 mo I would probably flip them back). Even if we know they can flip, and know they prefer tummy sleeping, we still must put them in the pnp on their back. So I guess it's not so much controversy as it is our rules and non-negotiable

For the record, when my kids were infants, the "in" thing to do was lay them on their tummy to sleep. I guess it's just like anything else, the experts keep changing their minds on what is best and how we should do things.

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I agree about the experts changing their minds, but it is mostly due to new studies proving things, or the theories that surround them.

They don't TRULY know what causes sids. It is something that they have theories about what causes it.
How many moms/dads smoke in a house, but would never admit it?
How many moms/dads stuff the cribs with teddies but would never admit it?

There are way too many factors that go unknown.

Not my own child, of course I would "back to sleep". But my fear with my children, especially my last, was that he would vomit, and choke. Because there were several times that I watched this happen, and had to clear it out for him. It was terrifying watching your 1 month old premature baby with eyes bulging out of his head, gasping for air, and vomit coming out of his nose and mouth at the same time. Doctors advised me to tummy sleep, or upright sleep in a car seat. So it was different, and recommended by the doctors.

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All babies have to start out on their backs for sleeping. Once they are able to roll over, then they can sleep on their tummies or their sides.

As far as movement to get babies to sleep goes, I don't do that because that just reinforces a sleep habit that may not be the best one to have. Letting a baby learn to sleep without needing to be rocked or in a swing, etc. is for their benefit. It can be hard for a little while, but once they become accustomed to it, they can sleep without the need to be rocked. I put my infants down for nap when they are awake but ready for nap and they go right to sleep.

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That's really interesting.

I've had a handfull of failure to thrive kids and done really well with them. Pureed food is my secret to success.

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