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Daycare Center and Family Home Forum>Disbelief Over Licensing Citation
Kimberli 01:22 PM 09-25-2012
I would REALLY appreciate some honest feedback here. Forgive me if this gets a little lengthy, I will try to be brief. Thanks in advance …
About 2 months ago, I had to terminate an 18 month old child for behavior (he became increasingly aggressive toward the end of the 5 months I watched him - he began spitting, throwing toys, pushing other kids down, climbing everything, screaming at the top of his lungs at nap time etc.) I was in communication with the mother about the child's behavior all along the way, and she stated she was having the same problems with the child at home. He would knock over all of her furniture, threw a toy across the room, splitting her lip, ripped her earrings from her ears repeatedly and once even slapped her across the face at pick up time.
I used as much redirection as possible (which honestly, at the end, was just continual) and ultimately used time-out to calm him down as a means of correction.
Finally, one day he became completely unmanageable and it literally took one of us (my assistant or I) tending to him one on one almost the entire day to prevent him from disrupting all the other children. At the end of the day, I let the mother know I was sorry, but that I felt I had exhausted the means available to me to keep her son mainstreamed into my group of kids. I told her that that day, I had needed to watch him individually or put him in and out of time out throughout the entire day, and that and that I believed he would be better watched elsewhere.
Suddenly, she became defensive and stated that she had never got complaints anywhere else except at my facility. She continued to bring her son as she looked for another care provider (I told her I would give her a week to find suitable care) and finally when she found someone who could take him mid-week, she asked for the remaining 3 days of her money back. I normally don't give refunds, but felt it was best for all concerned that he move on as soon as possible so I returned her money and she left.
Two weeks later, Licensing showed up at my door stating that a complaint had been filed against me. My analyst conducted an investigation and substantiated the complaint because I 'gave multiple time outs in a day' to this child, which in her opinion constitutes a violation of Title 22 and a child's personal rights. I was stunned, since I have a very clear discipline policy which includes redirection, expressing behavior expectations in age appropriate language (i.e. "we don't hit our friends"), and ultimately when necessary, a 'time-out' of 1 minute per age in years.
I immediately sent an appeal to my analyst’s supervisor, explaining to her that this mother was angry and retaliatory in her filing of the complaint – that she herself used time out with her son many times in front of me and stating that I had never seen anything anywhere that suggests that using time out as a behavior modification is violating of a child’s personal rights. I asked for specific parameters or alternatives to my verbal command, redirect, time-out progression. I let her know that my licensing analyst required my corrective actions for this citation to be submitted the following day (a Saturday) and that one of my requirements was to call the local office of education and obtain information on disciplining difficult children – (which only led them to tell me that they don’t deal with discipline at all and handle only education related business for school aged children.) Ridiculous that my analyst wouldn’t know that when she assigned the task to me.
I waited nearly a month without response to my appeal nor a return phone call to the voicemail I left her, and then last week I received a phone message from the previously terminated parent who is now, two months later, demanding a full refund for 5 months of full time child care or threatening to sue me, based on the substantiation of the complaint.
Most surprising of all is that today I received the response to my appeal and not only did the supervisor deny my appeal, but she sent me a three page scathing letter suggesting that I clearly do not have a good understanding, nor the ability to meet the needs of children under 3 years of age. She said that I should know that at their cognitive level, they cannot understand my behavior expectations when I speak to them and that my discipline policy is impractical because I don’t break it down in writing to address each specific age group of children I watch from 6 weeks to 12 years. She suggested that I ‘reexamine’ the age of children I provide care for and only watch older children if I am unable to remain calm and professional when I am working with infants.
WHAT???????????? Who said I was not calm and professional?
My jaw is still on the floor. Here I am in the midst of applying to expand my license from 8 to 12 children and she is telling me that I’m lucky I haven’t already lost my license … because I gave a child several time-outs in one day before terminating him at pick up.
Maybe I am completely deceiving myself, but I have raised 5 kids of my own, I have worked with many families in my daycare, my grown children nanny and babysit and EVERYONE I know uses this method to diffuse out of control behavior when nothing else works … up to and INCLUDING the parent who filed the complaint against me.
I really don’t know what to do. I feel humiliated. I am SO good to the kids I watch. My home and my entire family are like extended family to my daycare kids and parents. I don’t know what to do about my expansion at this point. I don’t want to spend hundreds of dollars to have this same woman veto my request because she feels I am already and un-fit provider. She gave me nothing to hold on to by her tone in this letter that gives me hope I would be approved.
I am a single mom who provides for a family of 6 with income from this business. I am just devastated. Someone please lend me some perspective. It’s things like this that make good people want to get out of the child-care profession. I am so disheartened.
About 2 months ago, I had to terminate an 18 month old child for behavior (he became increasingly aggressive toward the end of the 5 months I watched him - he began spitting, throwing toys, pushing other kids down, climbing everything, screaming at the top of his lungs at nap time etc.) I was in communication with the mother about the child's behavior all along the way, and she stated she was having the same problems with the child at home. He would knock over all of her furniture, threw a toy across the room, splitting her lip, ripped her earrings from her ears repeatedly and once even slapped her across the face at pick up time.
I used as much redirection as possible (which honestly, at the end, was just continual) and ultimately used time-out to calm him down as a means of correction.
Finally, one day he became completely unmanageable and it literally took one of us (my assistant or I) tending to him one on one almost the entire day to prevent him from disrupting all the other children. At the end of the day, I let the mother know I was sorry, but that I felt I had exhausted the means available to me to keep her son mainstreamed into my group of kids. I told her that that day, I had needed to watch him individually or put him in and out of time out throughout the entire day, and that and that I believed he would be better watched elsewhere.
Suddenly, she became defensive and stated that she had never got complaints anywhere else except at my facility. She continued to bring her son as she looked for another care provider (I told her I would give her a week to find suitable care) and finally when she found someone who could take him mid-week, she asked for the remaining 3 days of her money back. I normally don't give refunds, but felt it was best for all concerned that he move on as soon as possible so I returned her money and she left.
Two weeks later, Licensing showed up at my door stating that a complaint had been filed against me. My analyst conducted an investigation and substantiated the complaint because I 'gave multiple time outs in a day' to this child, which in her opinion constitutes a violation of Title 22 and a child's personal rights. I was stunned, since I have a very clear discipline policy which includes redirection, expressing behavior expectations in age appropriate language (i.e. "we don't hit our friends"), and ultimately when necessary, a 'time-out' of 1 minute per age in years.
I immediately sent an appeal to my analyst’s supervisor, explaining to her that this mother was angry and retaliatory in her filing of the complaint – that she herself used time out with her son many times in front of me and stating that I had never seen anything anywhere that suggests that using time out as a behavior modification is violating of a child’s personal rights. I asked for specific parameters or alternatives to my verbal command, redirect, time-out progression. I let her know that my licensing analyst required my corrective actions for this citation to be submitted the following day (a Saturday) and that one of my requirements was to call the local office of education and obtain information on disciplining difficult children – (which only led them to tell me that they don’t deal with discipline at all and handle only education related business for school aged children.) Ridiculous that my analyst wouldn’t know that when she assigned the task to me.
I waited nearly a month without response to my appeal nor a return phone call to the voicemail I left her, and then last week I received a phone message from the previously terminated parent who is now, two months later, demanding a full refund for 5 months of full time child care or threatening to sue me, based on the substantiation of the complaint.
Most surprising of all is that today I received the response to my appeal and not only did the supervisor deny my appeal, but she sent me a three page scathing letter suggesting that I clearly do not have a good understanding, nor the ability to meet the needs of children under 3 years of age. She said that I should know that at their cognitive level, they cannot understand my behavior expectations when I speak to them and that my discipline policy is impractical because I don’t break it down in writing to address each specific age group of children I watch from 6 weeks to 12 years. She suggested that I ‘reexamine’ the age of children I provide care for and only watch older children if I am unable to remain calm and professional when I am working with infants.
WHAT???????????? Who said I was not calm and professional?
My jaw is still on the floor. Here I am in the midst of applying to expand my license from 8 to 12 children and she is telling me that I’m lucky I haven’t already lost my license … because I gave a child several time-outs in one day before terminating him at pick up.
Maybe I am completely deceiving myself, but I have raised 5 kids of my own, I have worked with many families in my daycare, my grown children nanny and babysit and EVERYONE I know uses this method to diffuse out of control behavior when nothing else works … up to and INCLUDING the parent who filed the complaint against me.
I really don’t know what to do. I feel humiliated. I am SO good to the kids I watch. My home and my entire family are like extended family to my daycare kids and parents. I don’t know what to do about my expansion at this point. I don’t want to spend hundreds of dollars to have this same woman veto my request because she feels I am already and un-fit provider. She gave me nothing to hold on to by her tone in this letter that gives me hope I would be approved.
I am a single mom who provides for a family of 6 with income from this business. I am just devastated. Someone please lend me some perspective. It’s things like this that make good people want to get out of the child-care profession. I am so disheartened.
daycarediva 01:29 PM 09-25-2012
In NY state, you are not allowed to put a child younger than 2 years of age in time out. Maybe that was the reason?
rhymia1 01:33 PM 09-25-2012
What is your state's policy on time outs? I know they are out of fashion now, but we can still do them. The one thing that may be in the rules is TO only for 2 and up. I might even get a lawyer who specialiazes in child care issues to help fight on my behalf. It's one thing to knowingly violate the rules, but rules need to be clear.
familyschoolcare 01:46 PM 09-25-2012
IN my child development classes we learned that for children under that age of two we do not use time outs we talk to the child and redirect
daycare 01:49 PM 09-25-2012
So sorry that you are having to go through all of this....Really stinks.
It all does really sound unfair, but I will be honest with you, an 18month old is very young to be putting in time out over and over again. They don't even know the difference between right and wrong yet and it is our duty to teach them how we want them to conduct themselves within their environments.
I know that there are others here that have much better experience with this type of thing and I really hope that it all ends well......
One thing that I do have to say about CA LIC is that they are so grey about everything that NO one can seem to interpret anything
Good Luck
It all does really sound unfair, but I will be honest with you, an 18month old is very young to be putting in time out over and over again. They don't even know the difference between right and wrong yet and it is our duty to teach them how we want them to conduct themselves within their environments.
I know that there are others here that have much better experience with this type of thing and I really hope that it all ends well......
One thing that I do have to say about CA LIC is that they are so grey about everything that NO one can seem to interpret anything
Good Luck
grandmom 01:52 PM 09-25-2012
Oh my. I'm so sorry. If you lived in my state, I'd not be surprised at all with the analyst's review. They are that way here.
Call your local state representative and (politely) demand a review.
In the mean time, get all your ducks in a row. When the analysts find out you've done that, they will likely be back and will find more wrong. Get all your paper work in order too as they will audit it too.
So sorry.
Call your local state representative and (politely) demand a review.
In the mean time, get all your ducks in a row. When the analysts find out you've done that, they will likely be back and will find more wrong. Get all your paper work in order too as they will audit it too.
So sorry.
Country Kids 01:59 PM 09-25-2012
This child I'm sure knew what they were doing was wrong. They were being over the top aggressive.
If I was you, I would write down everything you told us-even what the child did to the mom.
Let them know the reason for terming and even have your assistant write something up about the care this child needed to keep themselves and others safe.
If I was you, I would write down everything you told us-even what the child did to the mom.
Let them know the reason for terming and even have your assistant write something up about the care this child needed to keep themselves and others safe.
Kimberli 02:00 PM 09-25-2012
I don't generally use time out much with younger kids ... in fact, I don't usually need to use it at all - but this child's behavior was extreme. I am in California and cannot find any guidelines on what age time out may begin legally, but all parents I know use it as necessary when children show defiance or concerning behavior that doesn't respond to repeated redirection - Including this child's own mother!!!
I DID ask just that ... what age then? Neither the analyst, nor the Supervisor had any response to that portion of my statement.
If the State doesn't want me to use time-out (which is like one minute of removal from the situation to short-circuit the behavior) then tell me so - but now I must tell parents for the next year that I 'violate children's personal rights' ... I know I wouldn't sign my child up in a daycare with that type of complaint and I wouldn't blame anyone else for feeling the same.
To that concern, my analyst said "oh - I've been in plenty of day care centers where parents don't even read what they sign and throw it in the trash." ... now, that's certainly comforting!!!!
By the way, there is a ton of literature out there including from the American Academy of Pediatrics that suggests starting at 12 mos. to build a foundation for the child to learn consistent expectations, even if they don't fully understand the time-out concept.
I DID ask just that ... what age then? Neither the analyst, nor the Supervisor had any response to that portion of my statement.
If the State doesn't want me to use time-out (which is like one minute of removal from the situation to short-circuit the behavior) then tell me so - but now I must tell parents for the next year that I 'violate children's personal rights' ... I know I wouldn't sign my child up in a daycare with that type of complaint and I wouldn't blame anyone else for feeling the same.
To that concern, my analyst said "oh - I've been in plenty of day care centers where parents don't even read what they sign and throw it in the trash." ... now, that's certainly comforting!!!!
By the way, there is a ton of literature out there including from the American Academy of Pediatrics that suggests starting at 12 mos. to build a foundation for the child to learn consistent expectations, even if they don't fully understand the time-out concept.
Willow 02:03 PM 09-25-2012
Can you appeal again? Get a different pair of eyes on this?
I'd be taking it to the analysists supervisor?
What specifically constituted the time out's? Did you take him and sit him down in a specific chair and set a timer type deal you required him to sit through or did you sort of take him away from the situation and have him sit down to calm down with you for a minute?
I fear you're calling what you did a punitive punishment (time out) while the reality of it may be that what you were really doing was merely reasonable redirection.
Any word too on why they notified the parent before they notified you??
I'd be taking it to the analysists supervisor?
What specifically constituted the time out's? Did you take him and sit him down in a specific chair and set a timer type deal you required him to sit through or did you sort of take him away from the situation and have him sit down to calm down with you for a minute?
I fear you're calling what you did a punitive punishment (time out) while the reality of it may be that what you were really doing was merely reasonable redirection.
Any word too on why they notified the parent before they notified you??
Happy Hearts 02:37 PM 09-25-2012
I'm so sorry that you have to go through this.
Just makes you want to tell all the parents at pick up that their kid is a complete angel and you're so happy they chose you as their provider.
Just makes you want to tell all the parents at pick up that their kid is a complete angel and you're so happy they chose you as their provider.
daycarediva 03:03 PM 09-25-2012
Originally Posted by Sparrow:
I'm so sorry that you have to go through this.
Just makes you want to tell all the parents at pick up that their kid is a complete angel and you're so happy they chose you as their provider.
I have to say that I find this especially sad. As a provider, we need to be on the same page as parents, but how can we when we are constantly concerned about reprisal?I'm so sorry that you have to go through this.
Just makes you want to tell all the parents at pick up that their kid is a complete angel and you're so happy they chose you as their provider.
I have one little girl that I am hesitant to tell any misbehaviors to the parents as they see it as an attack each and every time. I ALWAYS tell my parents when there was a time out, it's on the take home sheet as well.
OT- but where do you document any disciplinary action that is taken? If this were to happen to me, I wouldn't have any way of saying look, it happened here and this is what I did and the parents signed here? (like I need more paperwork though!)
baysmom 03:04 PM 09-25-2012
Sounds to me like you were doing the right thing... I mean if redirection wasn't really working or benefiting anyone then sounds like that child needed a "time out" from everything. Although it stinks you're going through this, I'm glad you posted it on here so we can all learn from this. I hope you keep us all updated on what happens. I haven't opened my daycare yet, still in the process of getting licensed, but I will make sure I keep clear documentation of children such as yours just in case!
MyAngels 03:12 PM 09-25-2012
It seems to me that there are really only two alternatives here:
1. Get a lawyer and fight like heck to get it removed from your record.
2. Try to get someone in licensing to pin down exactly what rules you violated, make sure you understand why they wrote you up, learn from it and move on. I know in my state you can't use time out under 3 years old.
As far as the former parent demanding her tuition back, I doubt that she has a legal leg to stand on. I'd tell her to get a life.
Good luck with this and keep us posted.
1. Get a lawyer and fight like heck to get it removed from your record.
2. Try to get someone in licensing to pin down exactly what rules you violated, make sure you understand why they wrote you up, learn from it and move on. I know in my state you can't use time out under 3 years old.
As far as the former parent demanding her tuition back, I doubt that she has a legal leg to stand on. I'd tell her to get a life.
Good luck with this and keep us posted.
sharlan 03:30 PM 09-25-2012
I would tell the parent that they were happy to use you for 5 months, until you termed, of course. You are not refunding her money. Let her sue. People can sue for anything, it doesn't mean they will win.
As for licensing, you will not find anything to back you up in writing. CA has more gray areas than they do in black and white. I really doubt you will get anywhere by going up the chain of command, either.
As for licensing, you will not find anything to back you up in writing. CA has more gray areas than they do in black and white. I really doubt you will get anywhere by going up the chain of command, either.
crazydaycarelady 03:41 PM 09-25-2012
I really have no advice but just wanted to say I am sorry about this situation. I can't believe she wants 5 months tuition back. That is ridiculous since you provided care for the child and if she was unhappy with your discipline she should not have stayed for 5 months.
The licensor just sounds like a power hungry B to me!
The licensor just sounds like a power hungry B to me!
daycare 03:46 PM 09-25-2012
Originally Posted by crazydaycarelady:
I really have no advice but just wanted to say I am sorry about this situation. I can't believe she wants 5 months tuition back. That is ridiculous since you provided care for the child and if she was unhappy with your discipline she should not have stayed for 5 months.
The licensor just sounds like a power hungry B to me!
I second this....ugh what a crazy woman....I really have no advice but just wanted to say I am sorry about this situation. I can't believe she wants 5 months tuition back. That is ridiculous since you provided care for the child and if she was unhappy with your discipline she should not have stayed for 5 months.
The licensor just sounds like a power hungry B to me!
Happy Hearts 04:27 PM 09-25-2012
Originally Posted by daycarediva:
I have to say that I find this especially sad. As a provider, we need to be on the same page as parents, but how can we when we are constantly concerned about reprisal?
I have one little girl that I am hesitant to tell any misbehaviors to the parents as they see it as an attack each and every time. I ALWAYS tell my parents when there was a time out, it's on the take home sheet as well.
OT- but where do you document any disciplinary action that is taken? If this were to happen to me, I wouldn't have any way of saying look, it happened here and this is what I did and the parents signed here? (like I need more paperwork though!)
I don't do this, I just meant it makes you want to say this.I have to say that I find this especially sad. As a provider, we need to be on the same page as parents, but how can we when we are constantly concerned about reprisal?
I have one little girl that I am hesitant to tell any misbehaviors to the parents as they see it as an attack each and every time. I ALWAYS tell my parents when there was a time out, it's on the take home sheet as well.
OT- but where do you document any disciplinary action that is taken? If this were to happen to me, I wouldn't have any way of saying look, it happened here and this is what I did and the parents signed here? (like I need more paperwork though!)
Oneluckymom 05:14 PM 09-25-2012
In my personal opinion, parents today do not want to accept personal responsibility for their own actions or their Childs actions. Therefore, these parents are raising these same children with the same mentality.
This is a sad but good example of the enabling bevaiors these parents have with their children.
I'm so sorry you are going through this.
This is a sad but good example of the enabling bevaiors these parents have with their children.
I'm so sorry you are going through this.
Kimberli 05:34 PM 09-25-2012
Thanks everyone for the feedback, opinions and support. Really, really. I don't think the general population (or dare I say the State either) understands what we go through in this profession.
OneLuckyMom, I believe you hit the nail right on the head. This child was this mother's only baby and dad was much older with grown kids of his own. It was the only baby she was ever going to have and she could not stand to even see him mildly upset or to hear him cry. SHE would cry when he cried, even though she knew he was doing wrong. I fear that one day those tears will be from the other side of prison glass because he is being taught that to bully others is acceptable. As far as the Mom goes: it will always be the daycare provider's fault, the teacher's fault, the coach's fault, etc. And out of her "love" for him, she is ruining her son's future and creating a hard road for him. So sad all the way around.
Now I'm just not sure what to do about pursuing my expansion with this on my record. Has anyone had experience with a similar situation? Expanding with a citation on their record? I'm not sure what my chances are. Hate to waste all the time and money for nothing, you know - but I really need to be able to expand to help support my family financially.
So glad I posted here. Thanks again.
OneLuckyMom, I believe you hit the nail right on the head. This child was this mother's only baby and dad was much older with grown kids of his own. It was the only baby she was ever going to have and she could not stand to even see him mildly upset or to hear him cry. SHE would cry when he cried, even though she knew he was doing wrong. I fear that one day those tears will be from the other side of prison glass because he is being taught that to bully others is acceptable. As far as the Mom goes: it will always be the daycare provider's fault, the teacher's fault, the coach's fault, etc. And out of her "love" for him, she is ruining her son's future and creating a hard road for him. So sad all the way around.
Now I'm just not sure what to do about pursuing my expansion with this on my record. Has anyone had experience with a similar situation? Expanding with a citation on their record? I'm not sure what my chances are. Hate to waste all the time and money for nothing, you know - but I really need to be able to expand to help support my family financially.
So glad I posted here. Thanks again.
daycare 05:42 PM 09-25-2012
Originally Posted by Kimberli:
Thanks everyone for the feedback, opinions and support. Really, really. I don't think the general population (or dare I say the State either) understands what we go through in this profession.
OneLuckyMom, I believe you hit the nail right on the head. This child was this mother's only baby and dad was much older with grown kids of his own. It was the only baby she was ever going to have and she could not stand to even see him mildly upset or to hear him cry. SHE would cry when he cried, even though she knew he was doing wrong. I fear that one day those tears will be from the other side of prison glass because he is being taught that to bully others is acceptable. As far as the Mom goes: it will always be the daycare provider's fault, the teacher's fault, the coach's fault, etc. And out of her "love" for him, she is ruining her son's future and creating a hard road for him. So sad all the way around.
Now I'm just not sure what to do about pursuing my expansion with this on my record. Has anyone had experience with a similar situation? Expanding with a citation on their record? I'm not sure what my chances are. Hate to waste all the time and money for nothing, you know - but I really need to be able to expand to help support my family financially.
So glad I posted here. Thanks again.
I think that the only person that might be able to answer that question for you is your Licensor. Thanks everyone for the feedback, opinions and support. Really, really. I don't think the general population (or dare I say the State either) understands what we go through in this profession.
OneLuckyMom, I believe you hit the nail right on the head. This child was this mother's only baby and dad was much older with grown kids of his own. It was the only baby she was ever going to have and she could not stand to even see him mildly upset or to hear him cry. SHE would cry when he cried, even though she knew he was doing wrong. I fear that one day those tears will be from the other side of prison glass because he is being taught that to bully others is acceptable. As far as the Mom goes: it will always be the daycare provider's fault, the teacher's fault, the coach's fault, etc. And out of her "love" for him, she is ruining her son's future and creating a hard road for him. So sad all the way around.
Now I'm just not sure what to do about pursuing my expansion with this on my record. Has anyone had experience with a similar situation? Expanding with a citation on their record? I'm not sure what my chances are. Hate to waste all the time and money for nothing, you know - but I really need to be able to expand to help support my family financially.
So glad I posted here. Thanks again.
Also, unless you have to make some major changes to your house, it does not cost that much to go from small to large. Really most of the changes that you need to make are for the fire dept. You will have to make sure you meet all of their requirements and should start there. Once you turn in your application for the increase in your licence, you will get a packet of information from your local fire dept and they will let you know what you need to have done to your house if anything to pass their inspection. Once you have had your fire inspection and pass, you will then have licensing come back out for another in-home inspection.
I would still try to move forward with your plans and the worst case, they tell you no.....
Unregistered 05:55 PM 09-25-2012
We are kind of in the same boat. Long story short, we had a child sustain a minor (not even a bruise) injury with us. I explained it to mom when she picked her up, mom seemed okay with my explanation. The next day the redness around her eye was now two black eyes and "abrasions" on her face (the mothers words - we didn't see the child). I explained to the mother that this was not the way she left daycare, and reexplained that she was hit by a ball. DHS and Child welfare show up to investigate child abuse and lack of supervision. DCP says that we weren't supervising her correctly (even though two people witnessed the minor minor incident) and because there is a mark on the child, it is now a child abuse case. DCP told DHS that we offered her no explanation for the red eye. Luckily we had proof in the form of text messages showing that we explained what exactly happened.
Explained to DHS that the mark the child left with was so very small, and not anything close to the injuries her mother is describing. Not blaming anyone - but that was not how the child left my care (two other parents saw her within 15 minutes of her leaving) - and that is all I can vouch for.
Blah, blah, blah - their 60 day investigation window was up over a month ago, with no word from them. They have us on an extremely difficult to follow "safety plan" - and we cannot continue with any of our change in licensing plans that were in motion before this started.
So I understand your frustration. I am truly sorry for what you are going through.
In our state, parents have open access to those records - so hopefully if a parent was concerned enough about that being on your record, they would look at the files and see how completely ridiculous it is - and hopefully they parent in a way that would agree with your actions.
Explained to DHS that the mark the child left with was so very small, and not anything close to the injuries her mother is describing. Not blaming anyone - but that was not how the child left my care (two other parents saw her within 15 minutes of her leaving) - and that is all I can vouch for.
Blah, blah, blah - their 60 day investigation window was up over a month ago, with no word from them. They have us on an extremely difficult to follow "safety plan" - and we cannot continue with any of our change in licensing plans that were in motion before this started.
So I understand your frustration. I am truly sorry for what you are going through.
In our state, parents have open access to those records - so hopefully if a parent was concerned enough about that being on your record, they would look at the files and see how completely ridiculous it is - and hopefully they parent in a way that would agree with your actions.
sahm2three 06:07 PM 09-25-2012
I agree, I don't do time outs for kids under the age of 2. But, it is this kind of thinking that, in my opinion, is ruining kids! They are growing up thinking they run the show, they don't have to show respect and can act in any way they want, and no adult is allowed to or should redirect their behavior. For fear of squashing their spirit?!?!? I am sorry, that is NOT the way the world works! The world does not revolve around the child. No child. Ugh. Kids have to learn how to treat others, and that there are consequences to not doing so. I am tired of the coddling behavior that is taking over parenting. Sorry for my rant, I am sorry you are going thru this. My thoughts are with you!
LittleD 07:10 PM 09-25-2012
Originally Posted by MyAngels:
It seems to me that there are really only two alternatives here:
1. Get a lawyer and fight like heck to get it removed from your record.
2. Try to get someone in licensing to pin down exactly what rules you violated, make sure you understand why they wrote you up, learn from it and move on. I know in my state you can't use time out under 3 years old.
As far as the former parent demanding her tuition back, I doubt that she has a legal leg to stand on. I'd tell her to get a life.
Good luck with this and keep us posted.
It seems to me that there are really only two alternatives here:
1. Get a lawyer and fight like heck to get it removed from your record.
2. Try to get someone in licensing to pin down exactly what rules you violated, make sure you understand why they wrote you up, learn from it and move on. I know in my state you can't use time out under 3 years old.
As far as the former parent demanding her tuition back, I doubt that she has a legal leg to stand on. I'd tell her to get a life.
Good luck with this and keep us posted.
I agree! Bring this to a lawyer, get them to show you the regulations on this, and fight!!
Some kids at 18mths may not know what is expected for them, but a good deal of them do. I have a 19 mth old, and she knows the rules, but is spoiled by her mom. I think you did all you can do, and if you go to court, I'm sure many of us can give you a testimonial as to agreeing you did what you could!
Stand firm, and do not doubt yourself or your skills as a provider!
to you!
brightstarts 09:06 PM 09-25-2012
I have a few thoughts/comments...
First, I wish I was in your state, because in NY, at least in centers, we CAN NOT use time out...actually, we can't say NO to a child at all. It's basically let them do what they want...I hate that! We can't even use a timer to indicate a turn is over, because a child shouldn't have to end their turn if they don't want to...yes, this is our government at work here!
OK, soapbox over...regarding timeout for an 18 month old. I'm a special education teacher for children under 5. Yes, an 18 month old may not understand the full reasoning of time out, but they are smarter than you think. An 18 month old is more than old enough to realize that when they do ABC than XYZ is going to happen. So, if they hit, they are going to sit..which they typically don't like and that goal would be that they learn not to do those things that make them sit. I actually recommend starting time outs at 1 year.
Third, you obviously have a parent that is out for revenge. I would first see about going over the person's head who denied your appeal. I don't know about your state, but in NY, our licensor has to approve all polices that we put into place. Did yours have to approve your discipline plan? If so, mention that!
Finally, about being sued...as much as it will stink to go through it, let her sue you. I really don't think she has any grounds to fall on. She paid for a service, you provided a service, if she didn't like the service she should have canceled it. Yes, her complaint was substantiated, but wasn't it for just that one day? The complaint wasn't for 5 months.
Just my 2 cents.
First, I wish I was in your state, because in NY, at least in centers, we CAN NOT use time out...actually, we can't say NO to a child at all. It's basically let them do what they want...I hate that! We can't even use a timer to indicate a turn is over, because a child shouldn't have to end their turn if they don't want to...yes, this is our government at work here!
OK, soapbox over...regarding timeout for an 18 month old. I'm a special education teacher for children under 5. Yes, an 18 month old may not understand the full reasoning of time out, but they are smarter than you think. An 18 month old is more than old enough to realize that when they do ABC than XYZ is going to happen. So, if they hit, they are going to sit..which they typically don't like and that goal would be that they learn not to do those things that make them sit. I actually recommend starting time outs at 1 year.
Third, you obviously have a parent that is out for revenge. I would first see about going over the person's head who denied your appeal. I don't know about your state, but in NY, our licensor has to approve all polices that we put into place. Did yours have to approve your discipline plan? If so, mention that!
Finally, about being sued...as much as it will stink to go through it, let her sue you. I really don't think she has any grounds to fall on. She paid for a service, you provided a service, if she didn't like the service she should have canceled it. Yes, her complaint was substantiated, but wasn't it for just that one day? The complaint wasn't for 5 months.
Just my 2 cents.
Michelle 09:43 PM 09-25-2012
wow! what you are going through is absolutely ridiculous! 
This child is a very strong willed child and needs strict discipline and guidance or he is going to turn into a thug.
18 months is not too young for a time out and from what you said about him ripping off his moms glasses and slapping her, just keep replaying that vision in your mind to make you feel better.
Well, sounds like you have done every thing you can do, I would suggest talking to her supervisor and asking for another licensing agent.
hugs, and hang in there!
try to find out where he is going now and have a nice little convo with the new provider if you can.
This child is a very strong willed child and needs strict discipline and guidance or he is going to turn into a thug.
18 months is not too young for a time out and from what you said about him ripping off his moms glasses and slapping her, just keep replaying that vision in your mind to make you feel better.
Well, sounds like you have done every thing you can do, I would suggest talking to her supervisor and asking for another licensing agent.
hugs, and hang in there!
try to find out where he is going now and have a nice little convo with the new provider if you can.
rhymia1 03:13 AM 09-26-2012
I'm wondering if you called it something else, if that makes it okay? I had a child who would spit over everyone/everything and he wasn't quite 2. So if I could not be right with him, he went in the high chair. I gave him a toy or two, he wasn't isolated, but he couldn't spit on everyone while I made lunch...
crazydaycarelady 06:32 AM 09-26-2012
I do something similar to rhymia. I have what we call the "baby gate." It is really just a play yard gate thing filled with toys. When I have to answer the door or have an 18 mo hitting, etc. they go in the baby gate. I don't call it TO but that is kind of what it is. They are seperated but still in the same room.
I love how these paper pushers sit at a desk and think up rules when they have obviously never spent 2 seconds with 6+ children before. In my state they were trying to pass 2 new rules but the providers made such a stink they backed off. The changes they were trying for were: Providers have to be able to see AND hear children at all times. Sounds reasonable until you think about nap times? The rule now says see and/or hear. The second rule was that if we we're driving with a dcbaby in the car we had to have a second adult in the car with us. WHAT? The parent drove to our house with one adult in the car! The cancelled that ridiculousness altogether!
I love how these paper pushers sit at a desk and think up rules when they have obviously never spent 2 seconds with 6+ children before. In my state they were trying to pass 2 new rules but the providers made such a stink they backed off. The changes they were trying for were: Providers have to be able to see AND hear children at all times. Sounds reasonable until you think about nap times? The rule now says see and/or hear. The second rule was that if we we're driving with a dcbaby in the car we had to have a second adult in the car with us. WHAT? The parent drove to our house with one adult in the car! The cancelled that ridiculousness altogether!
Crystal 07:08 AM 09-26-2012
You need to contact the child care advocate for your county. They will assist you in negotiating this with licensing, if they beleive that you have a legitimite complaint. I beleive you do, because no where in the regs does it state that we cannot use time out (that I am aware of, I will research this more later). Also, your licensor does not have the right to send you a letter that basically berates you and I would be addressing that for certain.
Here is a link to the California Child Caer Advocate- it is free-
http://www.ccld.ca.gov/PG491.htm
Here is a link to the California Child Caer Advocate- it is free-
http://www.ccld.ca.gov/PG491.htm
Crystal 07:10 AM 09-26-2012
Also, you may be able to get free assistance from the California Child Care Law center - another free resource:
http://childcarelaw.org/issues.shtml
http://childcarelaw.org/issues.shtml
SilverSabre25 07:11 AM 09-26-2012
Not much to say that hasn't been already; sounds ridiculous and unbelievable. One thing that keeps coming to mind is this: I wonder if the licensor is a friend of the mom?
lolaland 07:56 AM 09-26-2012
All this that I read above makes me rethink my career option. We endure so many demands and are such easy targets!! This is a "minefield" we're walking on and no one will have our back when hell breaks loose!! 4 years in the business and I see the demands increasing every year! Time to move on to some other career!!
My3cents 08:05 AM 09-26-2012
all I can say is wow.
I have several two year old's and I use this method- it is more of a redirection then a time out. Separation and reflection.
Let her Sue you, if she was unhappy with your services she should have pulled the child a long time ago. She will not win that. Sounds money hungry.
I tell my parents, it was a ruff day we did a lot of time aways, or time outs. Some parents don't want to hear this at all, they think little susie can do no wrong. I am not about to reason with the unreasonable. This mother sounds like she is trying to make money off of you. After a couple of hours of this child I would have been calling the parent to pick up and then after three times of this, sorry it is not working out. I think little susie needs more then I can offer here, effective ASAP we are done.
Sorry your going through this. Everyone is giving you great advice here. Don't let this crush your spirits as a provider!!! I wonder if the pencil pushers have done any research on adult spirits being crushed Sorry children are smart and they don't learn from over coddling, they need a balance and clear direction of what is right and what is wrong.
From one provider to another it is our job to lift each other. You would think these people in charge or over us would do the same- I believe most do. You just got the bad apple-
Best- and please update us and don't loose hope and keep on doing what you do best.
I have several two year old's and I use this method- it is more of a redirection then a time out. Separation and reflection.
Let her Sue you, if she was unhappy with your services she should have pulled the child a long time ago. She will not win that. Sounds money hungry.
I tell my parents, it was a ruff day we did a lot of time aways, or time outs. Some parents don't want to hear this at all, they think little susie can do no wrong. I am not about to reason with the unreasonable. This mother sounds like she is trying to make money off of you. After a couple of hours of this child I would have been calling the parent to pick up and then after three times of this, sorry it is not working out. I think little susie needs more then I can offer here, effective ASAP we are done.
Sorry your going through this. Everyone is giving you great advice here. Don't let this crush your spirits as a provider!!! I wonder if the pencil pushers have done any research on adult spirits being crushed
Sorry children are smart and they don't learn from over coddling, they need a balance and clear direction of what is right and what is wrong.From one provider to another it is our job to lift each other. You would think these people in charge or over us would do the same- I believe most do. You just got the bad apple-
Best- and please update us and don't loose hope and keep on doing what you do best.
mom2many 10:00 AM 09-26-2012
WOW! I cannot believe this situation...I'm in CA and agree that there are so many grey areas, but citing you for violating Title 22 for short 1 minute time outs is utterly ridiculous! I've talked to several Analysts over the years and discussed discipline with them and using this method has been approved by each and every one of them & no one has ever objected to it. 
I'm so sorry you had such a horrible experience and I would definitely use Crystal's advice and contact the Childcare Advocate Agency.I wish I had known about them a few years ago! I ended up contacting the Manager, when I had an analyst behaving in a very unprofessional manner and insisted on a face to face meeting with him, the Analyst and her supervisor. I presented my grievance and wanted all parties present, so a resolution could be put in place. It helped and I was not harassed this individual anymore.
The supervisor should NEVER berate you in this manner and I would definitely address the inappropriate letter she sent to you to her superiors. I would definitely fight this and I thank you for posting, because it was an eye opener!
Hugs to you! Hang in there!
I'm so sorry you had such a horrible experience and I would definitely use Crystal's advice and contact the Childcare Advocate Agency.
I wish I had known about them a few years ago! I ended up contacting the Manager, when I had an analyst behaving in a very unprofessional manner and insisted on a face to face meeting with him, the Analyst and her supervisor. I presented my grievance and wanted all parties present, so a resolution could be put in place. It helped and I was not harassed this individual anymore. The supervisor should NEVER berate you in this manner and I would definitely address the inappropriate letter she sent to you to her superiors. I would definitely fight this and I thank you for posting, because it was an eye opener!
Hugs to you! Hang in there!
mom2many 10:09 AM 09-26-2012
[quote=brightstarts;266200]I have a few thoughts/comments...
First, I wish I was in your state, because in NY, at least in centers, we CAN NOT use time out...actually, we can't say NO to a child at all. It's basically let them do what they want...I hate that! We can't even use a timer to indicate a turn is over, because a child shouldn't have to end their turn if they don't want to...yes, this is our government at work here!
Geez! This is unbelievable! At what age do they decide it's okay to tell a child "NO"! Is it okay once they are in school?!? 
Or do they wait till they are adults and they have the police to answer to...
I can see some real issues with entitlement and being able to conform to a society where rules and laws regulate things with these kids growing up thinking they can do whatever/whenever they want. YIKES!!!!!
First, I wish I was in your state, because in NY, at least in centers, we CAN NOT use time out...actually, we can't say NO to a child at all. It's basically let them do what they want...I hate that! We can't even use a timer to indicate a turn is over, because a child shouldn't have to end their turn if they don't want to...yes, this is our government at work here!
Geez! This is unbelievable!
At what age do they decide it's okay to tell a child "NO"! Is it okay once they are in school?!? Or do they wait till they are adults and they have the police to answer to...
I can see some real issues with entitlement and being able to conform to a society where rules and laws regulate things with these kids growing up thinking they can do whatever/whenever they want. YIKES!!!!!
sharlan 10:12 AM 09-26-2012
Originally Posted by rhymia1:
I'm wondering if you called it something else, if that makes it okay? I had a child who would spit over everyone/everything and he wasn't quite 2. So if I could not be right with him, he went in the high chair. I gave him a toy or two, he wasn't isolated, but he couldn't spit on everyone while I made lunch...
Can't restrain a child in CA.I'm wondering if you called it something else, if that makes it okay? I had a child who would spit over everyone/everything and he wasn't quite 2. So if I could not be right with him, he went in the high chair. I gave him a toy or two, he wasn't isolated, but he couldn't spit on everyone while I made lunch...
mom2many 10:22 AM 09-26-2012
Originally Posted by sharlan:
Can't restrain a child in CA.
This is true! No high chairs, play pens, exersaucer, bouncy seats.......high chairs can only be used for eating & play pens for napping.Can't restrain a child in CA.
rhymia1 10:24 AM 09-26-2012
Originally Posted by sharlan:
Can't restrain a child in CA.
Can't restrain a child in CA.
We can't restrain anyone for behavioral purposes either, which is why I don't call it time out when they go in the high chair.
But in all seriousness, what are you supposed to do then, with a child who is behaving aggressively or spitting on people? Call the parents to come get them? Terminate?
My3cents 10:27 AM 09-26-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhymia1 View Post
I'm wondering if you called it something else, if that makes it okay? I had a child who would spit over everyone/everything and he wasn't quite 2. So if I could not be right with him, he went in the high chair. I gave him a toy or two, he wasn't isolated, but he couldn't spit on everyone while I made lunch...
Can't restrain a child in CA.
Reply With Quote
I don't consider this restraining a child. I would call this redirection.
Originally Posted by rhymia1 View Post
I'm wondering if you called it something else, if that makes it okay? I had a child who would spit over everyone/everything and he wasn't quite 2. So if I could not be right with him, he went in the high chair. I gave him a toy or two, he wasn't isolated, but he couldn't spit on everyone while I made lunch...
Can't restrain a child in CA.
Reply With Quote
I don't consider this restraining a child. I would call this redirection.
daycare 11:10 AM 09-26-2012
Originally Posted by mom2many:
This is true! No high chairs, play pens, exersaucer, bouncy seats.......high chairs can only be used for eating & play pens for napping.
and painting...lol I use mine for painting for the littles...This is true! No high chairs, play pens, exersaucer, bouncy seats.......high chairs can only be used for eating & play pens for napping.
I used to use my highchair for my own son because he refused to sit in a time out. Took only two times and it was over. But I never did it for DCK.
However, I do place them in the highchair to eat if they keep getting up from the table....
daycare 11:14 AM 09-26-2012
Originally Posted by mom2many:
This is true! No high chairs, play pens, exersaucer, bouncy seats.......high chairs can only be used for eating & play pens for napping.
sorry to hijack the thread....why no play pens in CA??This is true! No high chairs, play pens, exersaucer, bouncy seats.......high chairs can only be used for eating & play pens for napping.
sharlan 11:33 AM 09-26-2012
Originally Posted by daycare:
sorry to hijack the thread....why no play pens in CA??
Play pens = pack and play, for sleep only. Superyards are legal.sorry to hijack the thread....why no play pens in CA??
High chairs are for eating only.
sharlan 11:35 AM 09-26-2012
Originally Posted by rhymia1:
We can't restrain anyone for behavioral purposes either, which is why I don't call it time out when they go in the high chair.
But in all seriousness, what are you supposed to do then, with a child who is behaving aggressively or spitting on people? Call the parents to come get them? Terminate?
Give them a big hug and kiss, tell them what a wonderful child they are and move on. Don't dare hurt a child's feelings in CA, it's illegal. (Read with lots of sarcasm.)We can't restrain anyone for behavioral purposes either, which is why I don't call it time out when they go in the high chair.
But in all seriousness, what are you supposed to do then, with a child who is behaving aggressively or spitting on people? Call the parents to come get them? Terminate?
sharlan 11:37 AM 09-26-2012
Back to OP, Crystal, as usual provided valuable info.
daycare 12:01 PM 09-26-2012
Originally Posted by sharlan:
Play pens = pack and play, for sleep only. Superyards are legal.
High chairs are for eating only.
so I had a 2.5 year old that was throwing the biggest tantrum of her life a few months back and I needed a safe place to put her so she could not harm herself. I chose to put her in the pack-n-play, because I knew she would be safest there......was that wrong?Play pens = pack and play, for sleep only. Superyards are legal.
High chairs are for eating only.
mom2many 12:23 PM 09-26-2012
Originally Posted by daycare:
so I had a 2.5 year old that was throwing the biggest tantrum of her life a few months back and I needed a safe place to put her so she could not harm herself. I chose to put her in the pack-n-play, because I knew she would be safest there......was that wrong?
When licensing was at my house a few months ago for an unannounced visit, I asked her specifically about the use of pack-n-plays...I had a 4 month old at the time in my care. She said, "They can only be used for napping and if they observe a provider leaving an infant or child in one to "play", they will cite them for a Title 22 violation, because it is considered "restraining"... even if the child is happy and they are given new toys to play with."so I had a 2.5 year old that was throwing the biggest tantrum of her life a few months back and I needed a safe place to put her so she could not harm herself. I chose to put her in the pack-n-play, because I knew she would be safest there......was that wrong?
It is mind boggling to me though when you need to use one for a safety issue, as in the case you stated or if a provider must leave the room to care for another child and wants to insure that the mobile infant is kept safe from any harm.
I truly wonder what they would do themselves, if they were forced to follow their own rules themselves!
Maybe then they would see how silly some of them are!
daycare 12:34 PM 09-26-2012
Originally Posted by mom2many:
When licensing was at my house a few months ago for an unannounced visit, I asked her specifically about the use of pack-n-plays...I had a 4 month old at the time in my care. She said, "They can only be used for napping and if they observe a provider leaving an infant or child in one to "play", they will cite them for a Title 22 violation, because it is considered "restraining"... even if the child is happy and they are given new toys to play with."
It is mind boggling to me though when you need to use one for a safety issue, as in the case you stated or if a provider must leave the room to care for another child and wants to insure that the mobile infant is kept safe from any harm.
I truly wonder what they would do themselves, if they were forced to follow their own rules themselves! Maybe then they would see how silly some of them are!
really........well then I am in big trouble cuz if I have an explorer that I know I can't trust to let me go to the bathroom, I put them in the PNP for 30 seconds and do my business.When licensing was at my house a few months ago for an unannounced visit, I asked her specifically about the use of pack-n-plays...I had a 4 month old at the time in my care. She said, "They can only be used for napping and if they observe a provider leaving an infant or child in one to "play", they will cite them for a Title 22 violation, because it is considered "restraining"... even if the child is happy and they are given new toys to play with."
It is mind boggling to me though when you need to use one for a safety issue, as in the case you stated or if a provider must leave the room to care for another child and wants to insure that the mobile infant is kept safe from any harm.
I truly wonder what they would do themselves, if they were forced to follow their own rules themselves!
Maybe then they would see how silly some of them are!I do it almost 3-5 times a day.................
What else am I supposed to do??
mom2many 01:01 PM 09-26-2012
Originally Posted by daycare:
really........well then I am in big trouble cuz if I have an explorer that I know I can't trust to let me go to the bathroom, I put them in the PNP for 30 seconds and do my business.
I do it almost 3-5 times a day.................
What else am I supposed to do??
Good question! She didn't have an answer for me either...just stated what would happen. I have a friend who has a family home daycare and she put her own infant daughter in one when they came out to her house and she was cited for using it. It didn't matter that it wasn't even a daycare child. really........well then I am in big trouble cuz if I have an explorer that I know I can't trust to let me go to the bathroom, I put them in the PNP for 30 seconds and do my business.
I do it almost 3-5 times a day.................
What else am I supposed to do??
When I first started 26 years ago, things were not so bureaucratic and providers were able to use common sense. Unfortunately it's not like that anymore, at least in CA!
Kimberli 01:03 PM 09-26-2012
I had a feeling that this situation would raise the hair on many necks, because face it, we all deal with these same issues on a daily basis. I think the hardest thing we deal with is parents who are 'too busy' or feel 'too guilty' (because of working) to teach and discipline their own children. Permissiveness is not the same thing as love - and it will ruin the child.
In regards to the pack and play issue, you've all heard how strict my licensing analyst is ... the first unannounced visit she made (a couple of years ago now) she mentioned that I had pack and plays set up (in another room down the hall from my obvious play area where all the indoor activities take place) - and she told me that I have to take every one of my pack and plays (sometimes as many as four) down each time a child is not napping in them or she would cite me. It didn't even matter that they were elsewhere and vacant - no pack and plays could even remain assembled! So now, up and down they go - up and down.
Last visit (same one where she investigated the complaint) my granddaughters exersaucer was in the corner of the family room (again, downstairs and a legal part of my daycare area but not used by children except for napping) because she forgot to put it back upstairs after the weekend. I explained that. Guess what? Yup! She wrote me up for it! I have NEVER used an exerciser for a child in my daycare, but, well ... who cares. There is no room with the State for life to happen - there are no second chances for being human, there are only punishments. But certainly - let's NOT punish a child or tell them no when they willfully disobey the rules.
The only part of the story I neglected to mention above was that the licensing visit was on a Friday morning - she felt it appropriate to keep me at my dining room table in discussion for THREE hours while my Mom who is my assistant had to take care of the 6 kids (parent drop offs, diapers, breakfast, etc.) by herself, and then gave me 24 hours to submit my corrective actions to her by fax. When I asked if that meant by Monday (thinking 'business hours'), she said, "No, by tomorrow. I work Saturdays in my home office so I will expect it by then." Hardly reasonable in my opinion, when Saturdays are not one of my normal business days and no children would be attending until Monday morning again after the end of that day - but, alas, I complied.
I already contacted the Child Care Law Advocate for my area days ago, but she is out of her office until the end of October (with no replacement, of course! ) - my luck! But I re-submitted a request through the main website explaining that she is unavailable and that I still need assistance - no response since last Friday.
I feel like I am the only one in this situation who has no rights at all. It just pi**es me off! SORRY ... beyond spent over this whole mess -
Thanks to ALL of you for your great support and suggestions! You really have kept me from jumping off the daycare bridge! Honest! (((HUGS)))
In regards to the pack and play issue, you've all heard how strict my licensing analyst is ... the first unannounced visit she made (a couple of years ago now) she mentioned that I had pack and plays set up (in another room down the hall from my obvious play area where all the indoor activities take place) - and she told me that I have to take every one of my pack and plays (sometimes as many as four) down each time a child is not napping in them or she would cite me. It didn't even matter that they were elsewhere and vacant - no pack and plays could even remain assembled! So now, up and down they go - up and down.
Last visit (same one where she investigated the complaint) my granddaughters exersaucer was in the corner of the family room (again, downstairs and a legal part of my daycare area but not used by children except for napping) because she forgot to put it back upstairs after the weekend. I explained that. Guess what? Yup! She wrote me up for it! I have NEVER used an exerciser for a child in my daycare, but, well ... who cares. There is no room with the State for life to happen - there are no second chances for being human, there are only punishments. But certainly - let's NOT punish a child or tell them no when they willfully disobey the rules.
The only part of the story I neglected to mention above was that the licensing visit was on a Friday morning - she felt it appropriate to keep me at my dining room table in discussion for THREE hours while my Mom who is my assistant had to take care of the 6 kids (parent drop offs, diapers, breakfast, etc.) by herself, and then gave me 24 hours to submit my corrective actions to her by fax. When I asked if that meant by Monday (thinking 'business hours'), she said, "No, by tomorrow. I work Saturdays in my home office so I will expect it by then." Hardly reasonable in my opinion, when Saturdays are not one of my normal business days and no children would be attending until Monday morning again after the end of that day - but, alas, I complied.
I already contacted the Child Care Law Advocate for my area days ago, but she is out of her office until the end of October (with no replacement, of course!
) - my luck! But I re-submitted a request through the main website explaining that she is unavailable and that I still need assistance - no response since last Friday. I feel like I am the only one in this situation who has no rights at all. It just pi**es me off! SORRY ... beyond spent over this whole mess -
Thanks to ALL of you for your great support and suggestions! You really have kept me from jumping off the daycare bridge! Honest! (((HUGS)))
daycare 01:25 PM 09-26-2012
Originally Posted by Kimberli:
I had a feeling that this situation would raise the hair on many necks, because face it, we all deal with these same issues on a daily basis. I think the hardest thing we deal with is parents who are 'too busy' or feel 'too guilty' (because of working) to teach and discipline their own children. Permissiveness is not the same thing as love - and it will ruin the child.
In regards to the pack and play issue, you've all heard how strict my licensing analyst is ... the first unannounced visit she made (a couple of years ago now) she mentioned that I had pack and plays set up (in another room down the hall from my obvious play area where all the indoor activities take place) - and she told me that I have to take every one of my pack and plays (sometimes as many as four) down each time a child is not napping in them or she would cite me. It didn't even matter that they were elsewhere and vacant - no pack and plays could even remain assembled! So now, up and down they go - up and down.
Last visit (same one where she investigated the complaint) my granddaughters exersaucer was in the corner of the family room (again, downstairs and a legal part of my daycare area but not used by children except for napping) because she forgot to put it back upstairs after the weekend. I explained that. Guess what? Yup! She wrote me up for it! I have NEVER used an exerciser for a child in my daycare, but, well ... who cares. There is no room with the State for life to happen - there are no second chances for being human, there are only punishments. But certainly - let's NOT punish a child or tell them no when they willfully disobey the rules.
The only part of the story I neglected to mention above was that the licensing visit was on a Friday morning - she felt it appropriate to keep me at my dining room table in discussion for THREE hours while my Mom who is my assistant had to take care of the 6 kids (parent drop offs, diapers, breakfast, etc.) by herself, and then gave me 24 hours to submit my corrective actions to her by fax. When I asked if that meant by Monday (thinking 'business hours'), she said, "No, by tomorrow. I work Saturdays in my home office so I will expect it by then." Hardly reasonable in my opinion, when Saturdays are not one of my normal business days and no children would be attending until Monday morning again after the end of that day - but, alas, I complied.
I already contacted the Child Care Law Advocate for my area days ago, but she is out of her office until the end of October (with no replacement, of course! ) - my luck! But I re-submitted a request through the main website explaining that she is unavailable and that I still need assistance - no response since last Friday.
I feel like I am the only one in this situation who has no rights at all. It just pi**es me off! SORRY ... beyond spent over this whole mess -
Thanks to ALL of you for your great support and suggestions! You really have kept me from jumping off the daycare bridge! Honest! (((HUGS)))
I did not know that about the pack and play, I hate having to take that thing up and down every time I need to use it....UGH...I had a feeling that this situation would raise the hair on many necks, because face it, we all deal with these same issues on a daily basis. I think the hardest thing we deal with is parents who are 'too busy' or feel 'too guilty' (because of working) to teach and discipline their own children. Permissiveness is not the same thing as love - and it will ruin the child.
In regards to the pack and play issue, you've all heard how strict my licensing analyst is ... the first unannounced visit she made (a couple of years ago now) she mentioned that I had pack and plays set up (in another room down the hall from my obvious play area where all the indoor activities take place) - and she told me that I have to take every one of my pack and plays (sometimes as many as four) down each time a child is not napping in them or she would cite me. It didn't even matter that they were elsewhere and vacant - no pack and plays could even remain assembled! So now, up and down they go - up and down.
Last visit (same one where she investigated the complaint) my granddaughters exersaucer was in the corner of the family room (again, downstairs and a legal part of my daycare area but not used by children except for napping) because she forgot to put it back upstairs after the weekend. I explained that. Guess what? Yup! She wrote me up for it! I have NEVER used an exerciser for a child in my daycare, but, well ... who cares. There is no room with the State for life to happen - there are no second chances for being human, there are only punishments. But certainly - let's NOT punish a child or tell them no when they willfully disobey the rules.
The only part of the story I neglected to mention above was that the licensing visit was on a Friday morning - she felt it appropriate to keep me at my dining room table in discussion for THREE hours while my Mom who is my assistant had to take care of the 6 kids (parent drop offs, diapers, breakfast, etc.) by herself, and then gave me 24 hours to submit my corrective actions to her by fax. When I asked if that meant by Monday (thinking 'business hours'), she said, "No, by tomorrow. I work Saturdays in my home office so I will expect it by then." Hardly reasonable in my opinion, when Saturdays are not one of my normal business days and no children would be attending until Monday morning again after the end of that day - but, alas, I complied.
I already contacted the Child Care Law Advocate for my area days ago, but she is out of her office until the end of October (with no replacement, of course!
) - my luck! But I re-submitted a request through the main website explaining that she is unavailable and that I still need assistance - no response since last Friday. I feel like I am the only one in this situation who has no rights at all. It just pi**es me off! SORRY ... beyond spent over this whole mess -
Thanks to ALL of you for your great support and suggestions! You really have kept me from jumping off the daycare bridge! Honest! (((HUGS)))
so if I have to go to the restroom then I have to put it up, place kid in it, (which is wrong) go to the bathroom, take it down and put it away....
meanwhile, the kids will all be left unsupervised so I can do so..................................................Feel like I cant win
BTW......i feel so bad for you and want you to know that if there is anything that I can do to help please let me know.... I hope that I never have to deal with something like this, but as we all know this is a risk we take daily when working with someone elses child...
big hugs to you.....I hope you find some time to relax this weekend and not stress about this...... you sound like a very good provider and I am sure all of your DCP would agree wtih me
sharlan 01:30 PM 09-26-2012
You are not in this situation alone. We are all one call away from this.
Things have definitely changed in the 28 years I've done daycare.
I was written up in August for 2 tomato plants, but nothing was said about a knife that my granddaughter had just left on the counter after making her lunch. Or about the knife block sitting at the back of the stove.
Things have definitely changed in the 28 years I've done daycare.
I was written up in August for 2 tomato plants, but nothing was said about a knife that my granddaughter had just left on the counter after making her lunch. Or about the knife block sitting at the back of the stove.
mom2many 02:45 PM 09-26-2012
I have never heard about not being able to keep pack-n-plays up?!? I have one up in my living room, when I have a newborn, so I can always keep an eye on them, when they are sleeping. I also have 2 set up in the napping rooms and never take those down. No one has ever said anything about them. Geez, I wonder what they'd say if you had a crib?
During my last visit, the analyst even went into "off limit areas" looking for things like bouncy seats, etc. Nothing is sacred...I understand they have encountered some horrible situations that have given them reasons to be extra diligent. However, when you are conscientious and doing your best to be 100% in compliance, it's really difficult to endure that kind of scrutiny....it's still "MY HOME"!!!!
You definitely have one crazy analyst who is out to find anything she can to harass you about and I sympathize with you. I hope the Child Law Advocates can lend you some help in dealing with this. Don't let time deter you and be patient! You may end up helping other providers in your area, once this is brought to light! I know it doesn't ease your frustration or take away the stress...but sometimes good can come from a bad situation!
During my last visit, the analyst even went into "off limit areas" looking for things like bouncy seats, etc. Nothing is sacred...I understand they have encountered some horrible situations that have given them reasons to be extra diligent. However, when you are conscientious and doing your best to be 100% in compliance, it's really difficult to endure that kind of scrutiny....it's still "MY HOME"!!!!
You definitely have one crazy analyst who is out to find anything she can to harass you about and I sympathize with you. I hope the Child Law Advocates can lend you some help in dealing with this. Don't let time deter you and be patient! You may end up helping other providers in your area, once this is brought to light! I know it doesn't ease your frustration or take away the stress...but sometimes good can come from a bad situation!
sharlan 03:07 PM 09-26-2012
Originally Posted by mom2many:
I have never heard about not being able to keep pack-n-plays up?!? I have one up in my living room, when I have a newborn, so I can always keep an eye on them, when they are sleeping. I also have 2 set up in the napping rooms and never take those down. No one has ever said anything about them. Geez, I wonder what they'd say if you had a crib?
During my last visit, the analyst even went into "off limit areas" looking for things like bouncy seats, etc. Nothing is sacred...I understand they have encountered some horrible situations that have given them reasons to be extra diligent. However, when you are conscientious and doing your best to be 100% in compliance, it's really difficult to endure that kind of scrutiny....it's still "MY HOME"!!!!
You definitely have one crazy analyst who is out to find anything she can to harass you about and I sympathize with you. I hope the Child Law Advocates can lend you some help in dealing with this. Don't let time deter you and be patient! You may end up helping other providers in your area, once this is brought to light! I know it doesn't ease your frustration or take away the stress...but sometimes good can come from a bad situation!
I was told at my last orientation, but haven't seen it in writing, that after the initial inspection, the analyst cannot go into any area deemed "off-limits" to the kids unless they suspect the area is being used for childcare.I have never heard about not being able to keep pack-n-plays up?!? I have one up in my living room, when I have a newborn, so I can always keep an eye on them, when they are sleeping. I also have 2 set up in the napping rooms and never take those down. No one has ever said anything about them. Geez, I wonder what they'd say if you had a crib?
During my last visit, the analyst even went into "off limit areas" looking for things like bouncy seats, etc. Nothing is sacred...I understand they have encountered some horrible situations that have given them reasons to be extra diligent. However, when you are conscientious and doing your best to be 100% in compliance, it's really difficult to endure that kind of scrutiny....it's still "MY HOME"!!!!
You definitely have one crazy analyst who is out to find anything she can to harass you about and I sympathize with you. I hope the Child Law Advocates can lend you some help in dealing with this. Don't let time deter you and be patient! You may end up helping other providers in your area, once this is brought to light! I know it doesn't ease your frustration or take away the stress...but sometimes good can come from a bad situation!
I was really surprised at my last inspection what all was not inspected. The analyst never even went into the playroom.
mom2many 03:29 PM 09-26-2012
Originally Posted by sharlan:
I was told at my last orientation, but haven't seen it in writing, that after the initial inspection, the analyst cannot go into any area deemed "off-limits" to the kids unless they suspect the area is being used for childcare.
I was really surprised at my last inspection what all was not inspected. The analyst never even went into the playroom.
I have had them pop them head into my master bedroom, but this last time she actually went out onto the pool deck that is secured with a pool fence and investigated the far back corner where our hot tub is. She walked over to the other end of the pool and then went into the room that is on our pool deck and is my husband's man cave. This was a first for me! I wasn't sure if she was just being nosey and wanted to check it all out, because it's clearly NOT a daycare area! I was told at my last orientation, but haven't seen it in writing, that after the initial inspection, the analyst cannot go into any area deemed "off-limits" to the kids unless they suspect the area is being used for childcare.
I was really surprised at my last inspection what all was not inspected. The analyst never even went into the playroom.
Interestingly too...she never stepped foot in the room where the kids play to check it out at all. I showed her my scrap book room, where I now have kids nap (previously it was off limits, when it was my son's bedroom) and asked her if it was all ok to use now...she glanced around and said, "yes it's fine" and didn't really inspect anything!
daycare 03:33 PM 09-26-2012
Originally Posted by mom2many:
I have had them pop them head into my master bedroom, but this last time she actually went out onto the pool deck that is secured with a pool fence and investigated the far back corner where our hot tub is. She walked over to the other end of the pool and then went into the room that is on our pool deck and is my husband's man cave. This was a first for me! I wasn't sure if she was just being nosey and wanted to check it all out, because it's clearly NOT a daycare area!
Interestingly too...she never stepped foot in the room where the kids play to check it out at all. I showed her my scrap book room, where I now have kids nap (previously it was off limits, when it was my son's bedroom) and asked her if it was all ok to use now...she glanced around and said, "yes it's fine" and didn't really inspect anything!
I just had one about a month ago and they pooped their head into all of my rooms and went into my garage???? which I didnt get because the door from the house to the garage is always locked and you need a key to unlock it....???I have had them pop them head into my master bedroom, but this last time she actually went out onto the pool deck that is secured with a pool fence and investigated the far back corner where our hot tub is. She walked over to the other end of the pool and then went into the room that is on our pool deck and is my husband's man cave. This was a first for me! I wasn't sure if she was just being nosey and wanted to check it all out, because it's clearly NOT a daycare area!
Interestingly too...she never stepped foot in the room where the kids play to check it out at all. I showed her my scrap book room, where I now have kids nap (previously it was off limits, when it was my son's bedroom) and asked her if it was all ok to use now...she glanced around and said, "yes it's fine" and didn't really inspect anything!
All I have to say is that you are never safe......lucky for me I was found in compliance with everything, but I was still being treated as though I was being interrogated by them.
I felt less interrogated when I got strip searched in the airport on my way home to egypt....
cite 04:53 PM 12-14-2012
I have a friend who just opened a daycare, and she was blown away when I sent her this thread. I feel your pain, and can sympathize. Sometimes shady characters can hurt you so much, which is why it's important to have policies in place and always follow them - you already knew this.
Thanks for posting this as the experience in the least will help others who are less educated in this field. Sometimes, as with any system made by humans, there are flaws to be exploited.
Thanks for posting this as the experience in the least will help others who are less educated in this field. Sometimes, as with any system made by humans, there are flaws to be exploited.