Default Style Register
Daycare.com Forum
Daycare and Taxes>2019 Attendance Record Hours or Hours of Operation?
Cat Herder 10:18 AM 01-02-2020
Q: In your Time/Space Calculations do you calculate based on *Attendance Records* hours or *Hours of Operation* hours?

I have always believed we were supposed to go by *Attendance Records* hours but don't feel I should be penalized if kids show up late. I was at work on time.

My husband does not lose time from his home office hours if no one calls or emails first thing in the morning, why should I? Valid question.

Thoughts?
Reply
TomCopeland 10:27 AM 01-02-2020
Originally Posted by Cat Herder:
Q: In your Time/Space Calculations do you calculate based on *Attendance Records* hours or *Hours of Operation* hours?

I have always believed we were supposed to go by *Attendance Records* hours but don't feel I should be penalized if kids show up late. I was at work on time.

My husband does not lose time from his home office hours if no one calls or emails first thing in the morning, why should I? Valid question.

Thoughts?
If you open at 7am and no child shows up before 6:30am, you can't count this half hour just because you are open. However, if you are doing some business activity during that time, you can count the half hour.
Reply
Cat Herder 10:43 AM 01-02-2020
Originally Posted by TomCopeland:
If you open at 7am and no child shows up before 6:30am, you can't count this half hour just because you are open. However, if you are doing some business activity during that time, you can count the half hour.
Why? Where can I find this info?
Reply
TomCopeland 10:50 AM 01-02-2020
Originally Posted by Cat Herder:
Why? Where can I find this info?
There is no IRS publication that says you can or can't count an hour you are open but don't care for children. However, if you aren't caring for children you aren't using your home for your business (unless you are doing some business activity). Your home transfers back to being personal when children aren't present. Otherwise, a provider could say she's open 24 hours a day and claim 24 hours even though children are only there for 11 hours. If a providers was audited she won't win this argument.
Reply
Cat Herder 11:04 AM 01-02-2020
Originally Posted by TomCopeland:
There is no IRS publication that says you can or can't count an hour you are open but don't care for children. However, if you aren't caring for children you aren't using your home for your business (unless you are doing some business activity). Your home transfers back to being personal when children aren't present. Otherwise, a provider could say she's open 24 hours a day and claim 24 hours even though children are only there for 11 hours. If a providers was audited she won't win this argument.
I wanted to make sure you knew I was not intending to argue with you. I truly do not understand why I lose hours when my husband, who also works from home, does not.

My business hours are only 10 hours per day (7:30-5:30). The problem is that during summer and school breaks my clients (teachers/one parent at home) would like to sleep in and drop the kids off sometime before lunch. I would lose around 4 hours per day of time/space hours during this time.

I considered being more flexible with my drop-off cut-off time (9:00) requirements for 2020, but this policy is one that helps keep my deductions in check. It all adds up. I guess I'll just stick to my current policy.

Thanks!!
Reply
TomCopeland 01:58 PM 01-02-2020
Originally Posted by Cat Herder:
I wanted to make sure you knew I was not intending to argue with you. I truly do not understand why I lose hours when my husband, who also works from home, does not.

My business hours are only 10 hours per day (7:30-5:30). The problem is that during summer and school breaks my clients (teachers/one parent at home) would like to sleep in and drop the kids off sometime before lunch. I would lose around 4 hours per day of time/space hours during this time.

I considered being more flexible with my drop-off cut-off time (9:00) requirements for 2020, but this policy is one that helps keep my deductions in check. It all adds up. I guess I'll just stick to my current policy.

Thanks!!
It's okay to argue with me! Although I didn't take what you said as an argument. It's always appropriate to ask me or your tax preparer or the IRS, "Where does it say that?"
If your husband is self employed and works at your home, he must have an office or other space that is exclusively used for his business. In that case, he doesn't count hours, because the room is never used personally.
Reply
Cat Herder 02:09 PM 01-02-2020
Originally Posted by TomCopeland:
It's okay to argue with me! Although I didn't take what you said as an argument. It's always appropriate to ask me or your tax preparer or the IRS, "Where does it say that?"
If your husband is self employed and works at your home, he must have an office or other space that is exclusively used for his business. In that case, he doesn't count hours, because the room is never used personally.
That makes sense. By the same token, my daycare playroom is not used by my family, either. It is a converted garage set up in preschool centers with a children's handwashing sink and commercial changing station. Our kids are adults and living on their own. No grandkids for a while to come. I do use a couple other rooms and more space than he does.

I was trying to apply logic to government. I'll just cut that out, now. I used Kidkare, hit print and mailed everything off to my accountant this afternoon. Feels great to be done.

Thanks!!
Reply
TomCopeland 03:36 PM 01-02-2020
Originally Posted by Cat Herder:
That makes sense. By the same token, my daycare playroom is not used by my family, either. It is a converted garage set up in preschool centers with a children's handwashing sink and commercial changing station. Our kids are adults and living on their own. No grandkids for a while to come. I do use a couple other rooms and more space than he does.

I was trying to apply logic to government. I'll just cut that out, now. I used Kidkare, hit print and mailed everything off to my accountant this afternoon. Feels great to be done.

Thanks!!
It's a somewhat good analogy. When you have an exclusive use room it's considered business use, even if no one is in the room. But, if you are doing business activities in the room when children are not present you can count those hours.
Reply
Cat Herder 07:24 AM 01-03-2020
Originally Posted by TomCopeland:
It's a somewhat good analogy. When you have an exclusive use room it's considered business use, even if no one is in the room. But, if you are doing business activities in the room when children are not present you can count those hours.
Thank you!!
Reply
ConnieG 04:21 PM 01-08-2020
I think if you open at 7:30 but kids don't dhow up till later that is still hours claimed. You could empty dishwasher, work on books, get crafts ready, clean house, vacuum, dust, laundry bids, bedding. On and on endless stuff!
Reply
Cat Herder 09:19 AM 01-09-2020
Originally Posted by ConnieG:
I think if you open at 7:30 but kids don't dhow up till later that is still hours claimed. You could empty dishwasher, work on books, get crafts ready, clean house, vacuum, dust, laundry bids, bedding. On and on endless stuff!
Oh, how true that is. I actually start work at 5:30 each morning (up at 4:30) with meal prep, playground inspection, play center prep and lesson planning. I do this so my evenings are available exclusively for my husband.

I do worry about adding an extra 6 hours per day on the days they would like to show up late (11:30ish). I can't depend on them not changing their minds and showing up so I still need to prep and I don't want to give up deductions, either. I would already lose those breakfast/morning snack meal count write-offs. Even though I do work those hours daily and am not free to leave (I prefer outdoors), I feel it may be something that could get me flagged. YKWIM?

I really think keeping my drop-off cut-off may be the best route for me. I need my deductions to stay profitable and be able to continue working from home. I also like the routine of all the kids on the same schedule for the day.
Reply
Julia2 06:45 PM 01-09-2020
Great topic, how I deduct a space that is exclusively for business?, thank you
Reply
Julia2 07:15 PM 01-09-2020
I have a question, how do I prove that I am up at 5:30 am doing curriculum, food preparation, daycare inspection, daycare cleaning, etc; do I have to take pictures of me doing that or how?, thank you so much, I will open my daycare in a month probably, thank you for your help
Reply
Cat Herder 04:41 AM 01-10-2020
Originally Posted by Julia2:
I have a question, how do I prove that I am up at 5:30 am doing curriculum, food preparation, daycare inspection, daycare cleaning, etc; do I have to take pictures of me doing that or how?, thank you so much, I will open my daycare in a month probably, thank you for your help
I use the KidKare program and record my hours weekly on Fridays. Click the accounting tab, then expenses, then time/space, then the tab "other hours". It is a little more complicated to figure out than the old program, but once you figure it out it flows pretty easily.
Reply
Julia2 06:36 AM 01-10-2020
Thank you, I will check kidcare
Reply
Blackcat31 06:59 AM 01-10-2020
Originally Posted by Julia2:
I have a question, how do I prove that I am up at 5:30 am doing curriculum, food preparation, daycare inspection, daycare cleaning, etc; do I have to take pictures of me doing that or how?, thank you so much, I will open my daycare in a month probably, thank you for your help
Add this link to your book marked sites.
It is a huge resource for anything child care business related.

http://tomcopelandblog.com/
Reply
ConnieG 04:07 PM 01-10-2020
I never thought about "proving" that we get up early to do things for daycare. Tax people have just always taken my written word. I use the Redleaf Press Calendar Keeper, because I am more a pencil and paper kind of book keeping person and it has all the best info needed printed ready to use.
Reply
TomCopeland 08:38 AM 01-11-2020
Originally Posted by Julia2:
I have a question, how do I prove that I am up at 5:30 am doing curriculum, food preparation, daycare inspection, daycare cleaning, etc; do I have to take pictures of me doing that or how?, thank you so much, I will open my daycare in a month probably, thank you for your help
Track two months worth of these hours on a calendar or on KidKare. Then use the average for these two months for the rest of the year.
Reply
YoderT 05:46 PM 02-12-2020
I was resently hired as a DC director. They want me to work 60+ hours at the center and take all paperwork home. Plus teach a class and do everything else. I'm looking at 70+ hours per week. No benefits or perks. Thinking of not accepting. Haven't started yet. Any advise?
Reply
YoderT 05:59 PM 02-12-2020
Add on:
Also... these hours on a very small salary.
Reply
Cat Herder 04:06 AM 02-13-2020
Originally Posted by YoderT:
I was resently hired as a DC director. They want me to work 60+ hours at the center and take all paperwork home. Plus teach a class and do everything else. I'm looking at 70+ hours per week. No benefits or perks. Thinking of not accepting. Haven't started yet. Any advise?
That is pretty common. That is why many of us end up just opening our own. We already have all the certs, training and experience.
Reply
YoderT 12:27 PM 02-13-2020
In not sure how I'm supposed to be both Teacher and Director of a large DC. Plus, I didn't hire on as a teacher, this was all a surprise to me last week as if I was down with it. Also, zero breaks! We have 30+ students and enrolling more bit she only wants to hire 3 people...Lol
Ugh!
Reply
TomCopeland 07:36 PM 02-13-2020
Originally Posted by YoderT:
I was resently hired as a DC director. They want me to work 60+ hours at the center and take all paperwork home. Plus teach a class and do everything else. I'm looking at 70+ hours per week. No benefits or perks. Thinking of not accepting. Haven't started yet. Any advise?
A director is an exempt employee which means they are not required to pay you overtime pay. However, these are very long hours with no benefits. You should think twice about taking this job.
Reply
Sunshine69 08:18 AM 02-14-2020
Originally Posted by YoderT:
I was resently hired as a DC director. They want me to work 60+ hours at the center and take all paperwork home. Plus teach a class and do everything else. I'm looking at 70+ hours per week. No benefits or perks. Thinking of not accepting. Haven't started yet. Any advise?
That seems more like doing in-home childcare without the tax benefits, or the benefit of being your own boss. If the salary isn’t a good one, I wouldn’t take it. Depends on your circumstances though.
Reply
Tags:attendance hours, breakfast, hours of operation, kidkare, meal counts, morning snacks, poll, time space percentage, tom copeland
Reply Up