Daycare.com Forum

Go Back   Daycare.com Forum > Parents and Guardians Forum

Parents and Guardians Forum Parents and Guardians should post and answer questions here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 12-05-2009, 04:10 PM
Cindy
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Toilet Trained to Move into the 3 Year Old Room?

I have been told by my son’s preschool that he needs to be toilet trained to move into the 3 year old room. My son turned 3 in September ’09 and has been diagnosed as ADHD combined and is really having a difficult time staying in the 2 year old room due to several reasons.

1. All of his friends have moved into the 3 year old room
2. He is bored with the things that are being taught as he’s been through it once already
3. He is not challenged or stimulated
4. Most of the children in his room are very young 2 year old girls
5. The teachers are frustrated with him and just want him out of their room

His preschool will not allow him to move into the 3 year old room until he’s toilet trained. If this is a California licensing requirement for preschools, can I please be told where to locate this in writing? Are there no exceptions? His ADHD is a big factor in him not being toilet trained. He can do it on occasion; the problem is with his lack of attention and focus.

Thank you so much for any help and/or assistance you can give me.

My son really needs to be stimulated and challenged at preschool.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 12-05-2009, 05:46 PM
Former Teacher's Avatar
Former Teacher Former Teacher is offline
Advanced Daycare.com Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: USA
Posts: 1,124
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cindy View Post
I have been told by my son’s preschool that he needs to be toilet trained to move into the 3 year old room. My son turned 3 in September ’09 and has been diagnosed as ADHD combined and is really having a difficult time staying in the 2 year old room due to several reasons.

1. All of his friends have moved into the 3 year old room
2. He is bored with the things that are being taught as he’s been through it once already
3. He is not challenged or stimulated
4. Most of the children in his room are very young 2 year old girls
5. The teachers are frustrated with him and just want him out of their room

His preschool will not allow him to move into the 3 year old room until he’s toilet trained. If this is a California licensing requirement for preschools, can I please be told where to locate this in writing? Are there no exceptions? His ADHD is a big factor in him not being toilet trained. He can do it on occasion; the problem is with his lack of attention and focus.

Thank you so much for any help and/or assistance you can give me.

My son really needs to be stimulated and challenged at preschool.
While I do understand totally where you are coming from, I,who is a former preschool teacher/Assistant Director agree with your center.

I speak from personal experience that it is/was VERY difficult to have a child in my classroom who was not potty trained. I would have to stop what I am doing, whether it be teaching or doing a craft, just to change a child. It is/was not only distracting but unfair to me, my other children in care, but naturally the child them self.

I understand that your child has a medical condition. Although I am not a Dr. I have never heard of ADHD causing a child not to be potty trained. But what do I know

My former director/owner made it a policy that all children in the Pre-K room must be potty trained. No matter the age. I once had a 2 year old (almost 3) who was actually to smart to be in the 2 year old room and she was potty trained so she was moved up. We have also had calls from parents in situations where the child would be 4 years old or so with no medical reasoning (just pure laziness). Once I had a parent who called and was actually offended because I said the child who was 4, had to be in the younger room. I had to explain to her that I did not have the diaper changing facility etc. Of course she never enrolled.

I don't think my state (TX) has a law concerning this. It would be a reasoning for action if they denied you care at all. It seems like they are still willing to watch him just reluctantly.

If you are that unhappy, I suggest you find another provider. Maybe perhaps talked to your doctor as well.

Good luck!
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 12-05-2009, 06:41 PM
jen jen is offline
Advanced Daycare.com Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,808
Default

I agree...I doubt that there is a law prohibiting a non-potty trained child in the 3 year old room, however there are requirements that would make the situation diffiucult if not impossible. For instance, an appropriate changing station is required as part of licensing. I doubt that a room that is meant for children who can use the bathroom independently is set up for diaper changes.

Also, if a room full of kids who are potty trained, your son might be teased or called "baby" for still wearing diapers.

Lastly, there is the question of where to draw the line...say the center makes an exception for you and another parent, who also would prefer that thier child be in the 3 year-old room, notices? How do they explain why your child is able to move up while thier is not?

There are several options:

1. A home daycare with a great preschool curriculum.

2. Crazy as it sounds, Dr. Phil had a great plan for potty training on his website. My son had no desire to use the potty, however it was a requirement of his preschool as well. Out of desperation I tried Dr. Phil's method and he was done in a weekend. (If you can't find it on his website (and you are interested in giving it a shot) let me know and I will give you the information as best as I remember it.

3. Please forgive me if I am way off, but is your child being disruptive in school? You said that the teacher's were frustrated with him...is his behavior due to a combination of boredom and ADHD or is there more you could do as far as discipline goes to help the teachers have a better interaction?
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 12-07-2009, 04:17 AM
mac60's Avatar
mac60 mac60 is offline
Advanced Daycare.com Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Northeast
Posts: 1,597
Default

In Ohio, before a child can move up to the different age groups/classes, they do have to be potty trained. It is the law here. Just like once out of the infant room, no bottles or no pacifier. I too have never heard of a child not being potty trained due to adhd. Not only that, but just turning 3, I truly do not believe that a child that young can be diagnosed with adhd. Sometimes centers are not the best choice for care.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 12-08-2009, 09:59 AM
seashell's Avatar
seashell seashell is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 179
Default

If the classroom is not equipt with a diaper changing station, your child should not be in the classroom. The teacher must maintain classroom ratios and she can not do that if she needs to leave the room to change your child.

My advise is to work on potty training with the teachers in the two year old room.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 01-23-2010, 02:19 PM
Carole's Daycare's Avatar
Carole's Daycare Carole's Daycare is offline
Daycare Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 236
Default

In a center it is absolutely necessary for a child to be potty trained to move up. The teacher child ratios are designed to be developmentally appropriate with sufficient supervision and interaction for that level. Not only may there not be appropriate facilities to change diapers, other children would be neglected to provide that extra time and care for your son. Additionally, other newly potty trained children would possibly regress if they see a child their age get extra time and attention for not being potty trained, or be ostracized by the group for that same reason. In the many years I have worked with children I have had many, many children whose parents believed the child had ADHD, as well as children with CP and other sources of developmental delay. ADHD alone, if it is ADHD at all, is not sufficient reason to be not potty trained. In fact, if his concentration is that poor, he probably hasnt mastered all of the skills being taught in the 2 yr old room that are needed to be successful moving up. If they are anxious for a break, behavioral issues such as OCD or discipline issues are more likely the culprit. Most school districts have a specialist on staff to do evaluations and provide support through early childhood programs through the school to help, but even those here require potty training except in cases of developmental delays that justify that sort of special care. I know its embarrassing to have him left behind, but it is not in his best interest, the providers, or the other children in care to just move him up regardless of his developmental readiness for that new environment. Ultimately he may need a smaller setting with more individual attention and intervention to catch up and have a chance at being successful when school comes.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 01-29-2010, 06:28 PM
Veronica Veronica is offline
Daycare.com Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Crestview
Posts: 7
Default

My daughter had to be trained before she could go to her class at a private school that where 3 yr old. They dont have the proper changing items in the room and the teacher cant take the whole class to get her diaper changed in the other room. Maybe you should ask them to let him go and see what the room is all about so then you can talk to him about training to help motivate the potty process I took my daughter a few time to her school and it helped motivate her she was trained in two weeks. she was 2 yrs 8 months when trained.They let her go in her class 2 months early.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 03-31-2010, 01:52 PM
Crystal's Avatar
Crystal Crystal is offline
Advanced Daycare.com Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,955
Default

I'm in Ca. If your child is a state funded center, then he has to be accomodated in the three year old room, diapers and all. At least it's that way in my county....may be different in others.

If it is a private program, it's their call.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 03-31-2010, 06:17 PM
Crystal's Avatar
Crystal Crystal is offline
Advanced Daycare.com Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,955
Default

gee thanks, now I look like the doofus who brought it back up! lol!
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 03-31-2010, 06:25 PM
Former Teacher's Avatar
Former Teacher Former Teacher is offline
Advanced Daycare.com Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: USA
Posts: 1,124
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crystal View Post
gee thanks, now I look like the doofus who brought it back up! lol!
haha no you don't...it didn't belong...besides i am ALWAYS glad to delete posts esp. from people who aren't registered or one of us!
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 04-02-2010, 05:14 PM
MN Mom's Avatar
MN Mom MN Mom is offline
Daycare.com Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Over the Rainbow
Posts: 396
Default

I, also, have never heard of ADD or ADHD causing issues with potty training. I am also astonished (and forgive me if this is controversial) at the amount of toddlers being diagnosed as ADHD. For Pete's sake, children at that age naturally have a lack of focus. It is the parents responsibility to TEACH them focus and self-discipline. The little blue pill isn't gonna do it for you folks.....

As for the OP:

I would just take a week or 2 and really really work with him hard at home. Try the Dr. Phil method, or one of the many other methods out there. Sometimes a combo-method works best...it depends on the child. If he's bored in the 2 year old room, that should be even more motivation to work with him at home. Tell him if he learns to use the potty, he gets to be in the big boys and girls room at school! There are many ways you can approach it =) Good Luck, potty training my boy was MUCH more difficult than my girls..but I assure you, it CAN be done!! =p

Last edited by MN Mom; 04-02-2010 at 05:17 PM. Reason: Spelling
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 04-02-2010, 05:32 PM
Michael's Avatar
Michael Michael is online now
Admin & Owner-Daycare.com
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Moorpark CA, Ocean Ridge, FL
Posts: 6,879
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MN Mom View Post
I, also, have never heard of ADD or ADHD causing issues with potty training. I am also astonished (and forgive me if this is controversial) at the amount of toddlers being diagnosed as ADHD. For Pete's sake, children at that age naturally have a lack of focus. It is the parents responsibility to TEACH them focus and self-discipline. The little blue pill isn't gonna do it for you folks.....=p
Not to mention the increase in processed sugars in their foods. Hard to keep a child in one place.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 04-03-2010, 04:41 PM
Unregistered
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I have my own private day care center so this is from that perspective. I have, in the past, simply moved a non-trained child, that was otherwise ready to move up, to the next age group and had the teacher in the preschool group call the toddler group aid to come take the child to the toddler room for changing when he/she needed it. I also make it clear to the parent that toilet training has to have already begun at home and at school. In addition, I still charge the toddler tuition rate until that child is trained. Usually the extra fee is enough to motivate the unmotivated parent to begin the training process. I also have a very detailed package I hand out to parents when they mention the words 'toilet training' to me. It often prevents parents from beginning training too early for a child who really isn't ready and guides parents of children who are ready through the process and keeps us all on the same page. I find if all the staff and the parents are doing the training the same way it cuts back on so many issues. Hope this helps.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 04-08-2010, 03:20 PM
Carole's Daycare's Avatar
Carole's Daycare Carole's Daycare is offline
Daycare Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 236
Default

I like the idea of charging the toddler fee until they are potty trained...
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 08-02-2010, 10:41 AM
Andrea/california
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Potty Training

My 4 year old pooped his pants last week at school and was removed from the school.... they told his father and I that we are bad parents and apparently don't know how to train our child. This is a licensed Potty Training school...that I paid extra for to train my child. I am filing a law suit against them this week!!!
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 08-02-2010, 02:41 PM
MN Mom's Avatar
MN Mom MN Mom is offline
Daycare.com Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Over the Rainbow
Posts: 396
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrea/california View Post
My 4 year old pooped his pants last week at school and was removed from the school.... they told his father and I that we are bad parents and apparently don't know how to train our child. This is a licensed Potty Training school...that I paid extra for to train my child. I am filing a law suit against them this week!!!
/Sniff Sniff

Does anyone smell diarrhea? I do.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 08-02-2010, 03:39 PM
Former Teacher's Avatar
Former Teacher Former Teacher is offline
Advanced Daycare.com Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: USA
Posts: 1,124
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MN Mom View Post
/Sniff Sniff

Does anyone smell diarrhea? I do.
Me too...that is why I REFUSE to respond to unregistered and/or guests.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 08-02-2010, 03:58 PM
Michael's Avatar
Michael Michael is online now
Admin & Owner-Daycare.com
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Moorpark CA, Ocean Ridge, FL
Posts: 6,879
Default

We are keeping an eye on them. Seem to originate in the Los Angeles area.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 12-23-2010, 12:11 PM
LAUSD teacher
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Obviously skewed

I am aghast at the lack of compassion and understanding for both parent and child from the users on this site. Mostly, I am appalled at the complete disregard for the needs of children while the convenience of the teacher/administrators are clearly the priority over the child here. I am myself a teacher and I certainly believe that satisfying the needs of parents, children and teachers alike are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

This particular child is obviously in need of progressing intellectually, regardless of his physical deficits, just like any other child with challenges. And yes, I can certainly see how potty training would be delayed by a lack of focus and attention. I have, on several occasions delayed my own restore use (like we all have) because I have had other pressing matters. Can you imagine what that feeling must be like for a 3-year-old who is (age-appropriately) illogical?

I might also mention that if this child were part of the public system, he would very likely have an IEP or section 504, making his accommodation a federal mandate. The teacher and facility may be fined, sued and even prosecuted for not meeting his needs. The right to a free and equal education is constitutional and if it would appear that is individual did not receive one, he would be entitled to support that is publicly funded.

My point is that this boy is 3-years-old right now but all too soon he will be an adult, burdened by all the hang-ups, baggage and injury of life. Shouldn't we assume the responsibility of avoiding potential developmental deficits in the years that are the most fundamental? As a high school teacher, try as I might, some students are no longer "reachable" at their level and emotional state.

Lastly, as a parent, I cringe at the thought of just about every adult at his school directly or indirectly rejecting this child. I used to think that a 3-year-old was not likely to perceive this subtle response but speaking to my 3-year-old, non-potty-trained, remarkably intelligent but physically delayed, preemie twin daughter, I realized that her feelings were genuinely hurt by her teachers telling other children what a great job they've done when they went potty while my daughter consistently waits in line patiently, raises her hand, says please and thank you, uses her words instead of her hands when she is frustrated and sits on the potty and waits and waits and waits for something to happen.

While she can say her alphabet, letters, shapes, colors, numbers and even do a bit of sight reading, she can't understand why all of her old friends and, perhaps soon, her twin sister are able to advance to the three year old room but she must stay behind.

Perhaps the money we pay to daycare is not such a good value in the end.

Both my twin girls are currently on a waiting list for a different daycare as well as 2 other children from our current private daycare. One of the parents has referred me to a district-run daycare and I am not at all surprised to find that more of these are to open soon. I also heard that a local private daycare closed this fall for lack of enrollment and our own daycare's director has said that, despite the school's celebrity enrollment, general local enrollment has declined.

As my own students often remark, "just sayin"!
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 12-24-2010, 09:25 AM
nannyde's Avatar
nannyde nannyde is offline
All powerful, all knowing daycare whisperer
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Des Moines
Posts: 7,238
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LAUSD teacher View Post
I am aghast at the lack of compassion and understanding for both parent and child from the users on this site. Mostly, I am appalled at the complete disregard for the needs of children while the convenience of the teacher/administrators are clearly the priority over the child here. I am myself a teacher and I certainly believe that satisfying the needs of parents, children and teachers alike are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

This particular child is obviously in need of progressing intellectually, regardless of his physical deficits, just like any other child with challenges. And yes, I can certainly see how potty training would be delayed by a lack of focus and attention. I have, on several occasions delayed my own restore use (like we all have) because I have had other pressing matters. Can you imagine what that feeling must be like for a 3-year-old who is (age-appropriately) illogical?

I might also mention that if this child were part of the public system, he would very likely have an IEP or section 504, making his accommodation a federal mandate. The teacher and facility may be fined, sued and even prosecuted for not meeting his needs. The right to a free and equal education is constitutional and if it would appear that is individual did not receive one, he would be entitled to support that is publicly funded.

My point is that this boy is 3-years-old right now but all too soon he will be an adult, burdened by all the hang-ups, baggage and injury of life. Shouldn't we assume the responsibility of avoiding potential developmental deficits in the years that are the most fundamental? As a high school teacher, try as I might, some students are no longer "reachable" at their level and emotional state.

Lastly, as a parent, I cringe at the thought of just about every adult at his school directly or indirectly rejecting this child. I used to think that a 3-year-old was not likely to perceive this subtle response but speaking to my 3-year-old, non-potty-trained, remarkably intelligent but physically delayed, preemie twin daughter, I realized that her feelings were genuinely hurt by her teachers telling other children what a great job they've done when they went potty while my daughter consistently waits in line patiently, raises her hand, says please and thank you, uses her words instead of her hands when she is frustrated and sits on the potty and waits and waits and waits for something to happen.

While she can say her alphabet, letters, shapes, colors, numbers and even do a bit of sight reading, she can't understand why all of her old friends and, perhaps soon, her twin sister are able to advance to the three year old room but she must stay behind.

Perhaps the money we pay to daycare is not such a good value in the end.

Both my twin girls are currently on a waiting list for a different daycare as well as 2 other children from our current private daycare. One of the parents has referred me to a district-run daycare and I am not at all surprised to find that more of these are to open soon. I also heard that a local private daycare closed this fall for lack of enrollment and our own daycare's director has said that, despite the school's celebrity enrollment, general local enrollment has declined.

As my own students often remark, "just sayin"!
Your whole post is a mine field of misinformation and assumptions.

First: A barely new three year old shouldn't HAVE a diagnosis of ADHD. He's way way way too young to give him a diagnosis like that that would qualify him under the disabiilty act you are referring to by saying the Center could be sued or fined.

At his young age it is OKAY to keep him with two year olds. Only in THIS generation of parents have we had a notion that there's an "age difference" between a two and three year old. Since the begining of time children have played together and grown up together with significantly greater age and developmental differences. It's okay for him to play with one year olds or five year olds. It doesn't matter.

The dividing kids under five up by age year is not because of developmental reasons but mostly for MONEY. Centers are allowed a higher child to adult ratio with each advancing age group. The more kids per adult the more money. In real life these kids can easily play with kids within two to three years of each other either way. It's not a sacrifice to this child to play with kids who are a year younger than him. The whole idea of that is rediculous and a product of our silly notion that kids under five need an "education".

At his age he needs good food, good sleep, good supervision, good toys, and some kids to hang out with. He doesn't need an academic program. He needs to have his behavior dealt with and his self help skills focused on. If they can offer that in the two room at a higher adult to child ratio it's in everybodys best interest to keep him with the younger kids so what's REALLY important will be worked on.

We need to stop interjecting little tiny kids "educational needs" into child care. We are robbing them of their younger years by muddling it up with stuff that won't matter a lick once they are in school. If this child has a full preschool program from now until he's five he won't stand one iota of chance of having a better long term outcome than a child who didn't have a minute of school before he is five. There's NO educational or social outcomes that are measurable that are wrought from a full academic program in early childhood. There isn't a stitch of research that will offer that kids who have had school before the age of five do better in ANY measurable way. They don't graduate at a higher rate, they don't score better on any standardized testing, they don't have less teen pregnancy, they don't get better grades, they don't have less expulsions, they don't make any more money as adults and on and on.

So standing on the premise that we have to DO now to protect his future is not backed up in any way with longitudinal research. Only POOR children from very deprived environments fare better with early intervention and that is soley because they are PHYSICALLY removed from that environment during a significant portion of their waking time.. NOT because the EDUCATION makes any difference.

You said: As a high school teacher, try as I might, some students are no longer "reachable" at their level and emotional state.

If you were pulled into your principals office and given the names of 100 of your students who you had taught all year long and told that thirty of them had a full preschool program between the ages of two and five and you were tasked to pick out those 30 kids based on what you know of them over the course of a full year of high school... you wouldn't be able to pick them out if your career depended on it. There's NOTHING they come to you with in the high school years that is a direct result of a full academic program in early childhood.

The "value" of child care is in the CARE of the kids for their most fundamental needs: food, sleep, supervision, having approriate materials, discipline, and of course a tender loving adult.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 12-25-2010, 07:41 AM
kendallina's Avatar
kendallina kendallina is online now
Advanced Daycare.com Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1,610
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nannyde View Post
Your whole post is a mine field of misinformation and assumptions.

First: A barely new three year old shouldn't HAVE a diagnosis of ADHD. He's way way way too young to give him a diagnosis like that that would qualify him under the disabiilty act you are referring to by saying the Center could be sued or fined.

At his young age it is OKAY to keep him with two year olds. Only in THIS generation of parents have we had a notion that there's an "age difference" between a two and three year old. Since the begining of time children have played together and grown up together with significantly greater age and developmental differences. It's okay for him to play with one year olds or five year olds. It doesn't matter.

The dividing kids under five up by age year is not because of developmental reasons but mostly for MONEY. Centers are allowed a higher child to adult ratio with each advancing age group. The more kids per adult the more money. In real life these kids can easily play with kids within two to three years of each other either way. It's not a sacrifice to this child to play with kids who are a year younger than him. The whole idea of that is rediculous and a product of our silly notion that kids under five need an "education".

At his age he needs good food, good sleep, good supervision, good toys, and some kids to hang out with. He doesn't need an academic program. He needs to have his behavior dealt with and his self help skills focused on. If they can offer that in the two room at a higher adult to child ratio it's in everybodys best interest to keep him with the younger kids so what's REALLY important will be worked on.

We need to stop interjecting little tiny kids "educational needs" into child care. We are robbing them of their younger years by muddling it up with stuff that won't matter a lick once they are in school. If this child has a full preschool program from now until he's five he won't stand one iota of chance of having a better long term outcome than a child who didn't have a minute of school before he is five. There's NO educational or social outcomes that are measurable that are wrought from a full academic program in early childhood. There isn't a stitch of research that will offer that kids who have had school before the age of five do better in ANY measurable way. They don't graduate at a higher rate, they don't score better on any standardized testing, they don't have less teen pregnancy, they don't get better grades, they don't have less expulsions, they don't make any more money as adults and on and on.

So standing on the premise that we have to DO now to protect his future is not backed up in any way with longitudinal research. Only POOR children from very deprived environments fare better with early intervention and that is soley because they are PHYSICALLY removed from that environment during a significant portion of their waking time.. NOT because the EDUCATION makes any difference.

You said: As a high school teacher, try as I might, some students are no longer "reachable" at their level and emotional state.

If you were pulled into your principals office and given the names of 100 of your students who you had taught all year long and told that thirty of them had a full preschool program between the ages of two and five and you were tasked to pick out those 30 kids based on what you know of them over the course of a full year of high school... you wouldn't be able to pick them out if your career depended on it. There's NOTHING they come to you with in the high school years that is a direct result of a full academic program in early childhood.

The "value" of child care is in the CARE of the kids for their most fundamental needs: food, sleep, supervision, having approriate materials, discipline, and of course a tender loving adult.
Are you kidding me?? Before you go spouting off that there is no research to date on the educational benefits of a preschool program, do a little homework.

http://www.cds.unc.edu/CCHD/F2004/09...bell.et.al.pdf
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 12-25-2010, 01:53 PM
Blackcat31's Avatar
Blackcat31 Blackcat31 is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 16,826
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kendallina View Post
Are you kidding me?? Before you go spouting off that there is no research to date on the educational benefits of a preschool program, do a little homework.

http://www.cds.unc.edu/CCHD/F2004/09...bell.et.al.pdf
I just wrote an entire Argumentative Research paper for school talking about the long term (and short term) benefits of high quality early childhood education. I used a lot of information from the site you listed as well as the following sites:

http://www.highscope.org/content.asp?contentid=219
http://nieer.org/
http://ecrp.uiuc.edu/v4n1/marcon.html
http://aysps.gsu.edu/publications/20...hoodReport.pdf
http://www.waisman.wisc.edu/cls/cbaexecsum4.html
http://www.fpg.unc.edu/~abc/

ALL of which give clear long term benefits to high quality early childhood education. I am sure there are alot of counter arguments out there but I, for one, am inclined to buy into the benefits; both short and long term.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 12-27-2010, 03:15 AM
nannyde's Avatar
nannyde nannyde is offline
All powerful, all knowing daycare whisperer
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Des Moines
Posts: 7,238
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kendallina View Post
Are you kidding me?? Before you go spouting off that there is no research to date on the educational benefits of a preschool program, do a little homework.

http://www.cds.unc.edu/CCHD/F2004/09...bell.et.al.pdf
I've read that before. Isn't that for LOW INCOME multirisked families?

I said Only POOR children from very deprived environments fare better with early intervention
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 12-27-2010, 05:21 AM
nannyde's Avatar
nannyde nannyde is offline
All powerful, all knowing daycare whisperer
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Des Moines
Posts: 7,238
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackcat31 View Post
I just wrote an entire Argumentative Research paper for school talking about the long term (and short term) benefits of high quality early childhood education. I used a lot of information from the site you listed as well as the following sites:

http://www.highscope.org/content.asp?contentid=219
http://nieer.org/
http://ecrp.uiuc.edu/v4n1/marcon.html
http://aysps.gsu.edu/publications/20...hoodReport.pdf
http://www.waisman.wisc.edu/cls/cbaexecsum4.html
http://www.fpg.unc.edu/~abc/

ALL of which give clear long term benefits to high quality early childhood education. I am sure there are alot of counter arguments out there but I, for one, am inclined to buy into the benefits; both short and long term.
Black: I said low income kids profit: I'll add primarily African American males. You just gave another set of examples of POOR kids gaining from preschool. The problem we have in this society is that we take research on poor kids and somehow generate it to the "schooling" of lower middle class, middle class, and upper middle class kids... WHICH ARE THE BLUNT OF OUR POPULATION.

There's not research out there that I know of that studies the blunt of our two thru five year olds and shows that preschool has ANY significant difference on any subsect of the population BUT poor kids. I don't think any of us here ... without degrees in rocket scientry... would suggest otherwise. It's common sense. The problem I have is when it gets applied year after year by proponents of preschool for us to integrate this research into our programs that don't serve poor kids. I have a problem as a tax payer paying for preschool programs that don't exclusively serve low income kids.

The OP's kid was barely three. NO need to switch the kid in with age mates for education. Unless the OP's kid was a poor kid then no need for an education any way. Going to "school" at age FIVE as a Kindergartener will net the same results as if he didn't have a lick of school before the age of five.

Your sources:

highscope was for poor kids. The Perry Preschool Project began in 1962 in Ypsilanti, Michigan, with a sample of 123 low-income, "at-risk" children.


http://ecrp.uiuc.edu/v4n1/marcon.html
The present study provides follow-up data for one cohort of low-income, minority children who had attended two years of school (preschool and kindergarten) prior to entering first grade. (this study was with kids who did preschool AND Kindergarten). I'm not saying KINDERGARTEN doesn't affect oucomes.


http://aysps.gsu.edu/publications/20...hoodReport.pdf

This is another study INCLUDING Kindergarten kids. I'm specifically talking about two or three to five year olds as the OP discussed.

This is a good study to read but not for the reasons you state. What's interesting about this study is the high correlation to success based on the Mother's educational level. But I digress.......

A few snippets:

Pre-K participation was associated with more positive outcomes than other preschool experiences on 11 of 16 measures. However, in no case was the difference statistically significant during the first grade. This is not an assessment of the effectiveness of Georgia Pre-K: children who participated in the Pre-K program gained more skills than they began with relative to the national norms. The growth of skills for these Pre-K children is parallel to the growth of other children, including those in private programs
and Head Start. One way to interpret these findings is that children enrolled in private programs and Head Start, which is almost two times as costly as Georgia Pre-K (Barnett, et al 2004), developed skills at the same rate as children in the Pre-K program.

The corollary, if true, means that children from families that
are economically better off would also benefit from high quality preschool.
In this study, we found that the Georgia Pre-K program does produce higher levels of skills among children of very poor and working poor families. Children from families that received Temporary Assistance for Needy Families (TANF) and children from working poor families were able to identify more letters and words at the end of firstgrade if they attended the Georgia Pre-K program. Furthermore, attending the Georgia Pre-K program appeared to help children from lower income families close the gap between themselves and their more advantaged peers in letter and word identification.
However, more support for economically disadvantaged children may be needed.

The average age of participants upon their entry into preschool was 4.5 years and was 5.5 upon their entry into kindergarten.

However, the children lost ground with respect to the national
norms on several assessments during their first grade year. By the end of the first grade, nearly 10% of the children in the GECS had been retained at least one year. These children were highly concentrated within the group of children whose mothers had not completed high school.

Interestingly, the children who did not attend any preschoolscored equal to or higher than the children who attended Georgia Pre-K and Head Start on teacher ratings of readiness.

Gains Relative to National NormsGeorgia students posted significant gains against the national norms for children of their age on their problem-solving skills throughout the study period (Figure 2.10). Preschool students began that school year (96.9) slightly behind the national norm (100). However,they had met the norm by the beginning of kindergarten and well exceeded it by the end of first grade (109.3). The pattern is similar for the entire sample including students who did not attend a formal preschool.

Although the effects of attending Pre-K on other skills, such as math fluency, expressive vocabulary and problem-solving were generally positive for these same groups of children, these effects were not significant (Table 5.2). Because the added benefits from attending Pre-K for other skills measured at the end of first grade were not statistically significant, we will focus on the analysis of the four skills that were measured from the end of first grade.
beginning of preschool through the end of first grade.

One goal of the Georgia Early Childhood Study was to determine whether Georgia’s Pre- K Program had any effects on children who may have been at-risk of school failure and to establish whether these children received benefits that were greater than or less than those of other children. Positive effects on these groups indicate that they profited from their participation in the Pre-K Program over and above the benefits received by other groups. Additionally, the study tested these effects by level of income. Our findings indicate that poor children benefited more from participation in Pre-K than children in families with middle or higher incomes.

The Pre-K Program also had a positive effect on students whose families were
categorized as ‘working poor,’ meaning they were eligible for means tested benefits, such as Food Stamps and Medicaid but earned too much to qualify for TANF. For this population, Pre-K significantly improved the ability of these children to recognize letters and words (Table 5.4). Except for receptive language, the effects of Pre-K were positive for these children from working poor families though the differences were insignificant.

I could do more but you get the point. Preschool makes a difference for poor kids.

http://www.waisman.wisc.edu/cls/cbaexecsum4.html


The Chicago Longitudinal Study (CLS; Reynolds, 1991, 1999; Reynolds, Bezruczko, Hagemann, 1997) investigates the educational and social development of a same-age cohort of 1,539 low-income, minority children (93% African American) who grew up in high-poverty neighborhoods in
central-city Chicago and attended government-funded kindergarten programs in the Chicago Public Schools in 1985-1986.

http://www.fpg.unc.edu/~abc/


The Abecedarian project was a carefully controlled scientific study of the potential benefits of early childhood education for poor children.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 12-27-2010, 05:39 AM
nannyde's Avatar
nannyde nannyde is offline
All powerful, all knowing daycare whisperer
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Des Moines
Posts: 7,238
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kendallina View Post
Are you kidding me?? Before you go spouting off that there is no research to date on the educational benefits of a preschool program, do a little homework.

http://www.cds.unc.edu/CCHD/F2004/09...bell.et.al.pdf
do a little homework Tell me about one longitudinal study that EXCLUDES poor children and that shows that there is ANY significant difference in any measurable outcome academically, socially, behaviorally between children who attended a full preschool program from two to five or three to five compared to children who did not have any preschool at all.

My theory is it doesn't exist because it doesn't exist. Nobody is going to fund a study that has an outcome we already know.

The problem I see with Early Childhood Education and Educators is that they base their foundation of edcuation for two to five year olds based solely on research from poor kids and extrapolate that into the BLUNT of the population. It works it's way into our pocketbooks as taxpayers and it really works it's way into State Regs and our day to day life as providers. In my State the vast vast majority of "training" above foundational emergency/safety training (cpr, first aid, mandatory reporter) is educating kids training.

I want our school money going to Elementary school aged kids and preschool for poor kids. I don't want our money going to preschool programs for the masses when there's no pay off for that. We start kids in school at age five for a reason. That's the age where it PAYS to start educating kids because that's the age where they are developmentally ready to receive the education. (excluding poor kids of course)

As a provider I get tired of having society expect we do educational programs for young kids who are not economically disadvantaged. We are focusing their care on stuff that doesn't really matter in the end. We need to focus on good FOOD, good supervision, good materials for FREE PLAY, and EXERCISE. I want America's birth to five crowd to be talented and gifted in sleep, exercise, healthy eating, and free play under close supervision. That's the recipe for a five year old being raring to go in Kindy. We need to get back to the ways of our ancestors and look at what REALLY matters.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 11-04-2014, 02:28 PM
Unregistered
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Yes if child has IEP

They're protected by law from being held back or discriminated against
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 11-30-2014, 11:41 AM
ColorfulSunburst's Avatar
ColorfulSunburst ColorfulSunburst is offline
Daycare.com Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Bronx, New York
Posts: 572
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
They're protected by law from being held back or discriminated against
what about parents who are too lazy to start potty training of own children?
They are holding back own children. No one else.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 11-30-2014, 02:42 PM
Thriftylady's Avatar
Thriftylady Thriftylady is offline
Daycare.com Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Ohio
Posts: 5,887
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ColorfulSunburst View Post
what about parents who are too lazy to start potty training of own children?
They are holding back own children. No one else.
Wow this thread is old but you bring up a great point.

I thought my DD had ADD or ADHD at one point when she was little. Our life was awful, she hit me, screamed at me, basically abused me. It wasn't because I was lazy though. It was because I was guilt parenting and guess what? I had to get over it. She is great now, an awesome child, but it is because she knows she ain't getting over on us. Right now she has a C in her AP English. She is in 10th grade and never gets a C. She is in some "trouble", meaning no fun time on the computer until she gets her grade up. This is the most trouble she has given me in years lol. But I wish we could teach all parents that sometimes behavior begets behavior and sometimes PARENTS are the reason for their kids issues. I know I was, I was loving her right into problems. I changed the way I "love" her to a way that would be more productive in her future, and it made a huge difference. Guess what??? She doesn't hate me lol.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 12-11-2014, 05:23 AM
Guest
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thriftylady View Post
Wow this thread is old but you bring up a great point.

I I was loving her right into problems. I changed the way I "love" her to a way that would be more productive in her future, and it made a huge difference. Guess what??? She doesn't hate me lol.

My comment has nothing to do with OP , just had to say:"Wish you could have a chat with some of the parents I deal with"
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
add, adhd, diarrhea, politically correct, politics vs childcare needs, potty, toilet trained, trained, universal childcare, universal preschool

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Okay So On To Phase 2 Of Planning This Extra Room..... cheerfuldom Daycare Center and Family Home Forum 5 08-31-2012 03:02 PM
Daycare Room Question littlemonkeys Daycare Center and Family Home Forum 34 01-26-2011 09:03 PM
Separate Play Room: Yay or Nay??? VanessaEO Daycare Center and Family Home Forum 6 01-10-2011 06:33 AM
Napping in This Room?? Pic SunflowerMama Daycare Center and Family Home Forum 25 10-28-2010 05:02 AM
Napping in Same Room..First Day Not Going So Well My4SunshineGirlsNY Daycare Center and Family Home Forum 10 04-13-2010 07:52 AM


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:35 AM.



Daycare.com         Find A Daycare         List Your Daycare         Toys & Products                 About Us

Daycare.com
Please read our Disclaimer before continuing.

Topics pertain mainly to the following States:

Alabama Alaska Arizona Arkansas California Colorado Connecticut Delaware District of Columbia Florida Georgia Hawaii Idaho Illinois Indiana Iowa Kansas Kentucky Louisiana Maine Maryland Massachusetts Michigan Minnesota Mississippi Missouri Montana Nebraska Nevada New Hampshire New Jersey New Mexico New York North Carolina North Dakota Ohio Oklahoma Oregon Pennsylvania Rhode Island South Carolina South Dakota Tennessee Texas Utah Vermont Virginia Washington West Virginia Wisconsin Wyoming