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Parents and Guardians Forum>Making A Parent Pay For "Damage"
Unregistered 06:32 PM 05-04-2013
***. This is complicated. I have a 3yo DD where the 1st D sometimes stands for darling and other times stands for devilish... She is a challenging child and I am the 1st one to admit it.

She is/was in a home daycare where things have been getting increasingly stressed because of her behavior. She is a strong-willed child who can be hard to handle. (She is also our 2nd, so we have been through this before with a difficult but not too hard kid.)

The daycare we chose professed to not use punishments like time-outs when we picked it almost a year ago. She claimed to have read books like "Setting Limits with your Strong Willed Child" and other books on positive discipline. My DD does not respond well to time-outs in any way and so we worked to chose a care giver who seemed educated on alternatives.


I'm going to make a long story short. On Friday things came to a head and the daycare provider apparently tried to do time-outs (which failed miserably) and ended up placing our DD in her daughter's bedroom and closing the door to enforce the time-out.

In response my DD peed on her child's bed. Not a small accident, but a full out pee that soaked the mattress. I got a call to come get her and I did.

I just got an e-mail telling me that if we want to continue bringing her there, we need to work out a new behavior plan and also pay for the cost to replace the soaked mattress. She claims to have tried to wash it with her green machine and it still smells...

I was hoping to keep my DD there until she starts preschool in the fall (she is being evaluated and will likely get a spot in a special needs school) but that's probably not going to happen.

It's being asked to replace the mattress that's really throwing me for a loop. That seems ridiculous. She should NOT have placed my child in that room in the 1st place. Is this normal?
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Starburst 10:01 PM 05-04-2013
I agree that it is not advised to purposely leave a young child in a room alone with the door closed (with some exceptions, like bathroom for privacy). That is very unusual conduct of a child care provider, especially one who claims to have read a book on "positive punishment" (doesn't seem very "positive" to me) and someone who says they never do time outs. I think in some states it might even be grounds for at least a citation or warning from licensing/DHS (lack of supervision).

But did you sign a contract? If so, did the contract (or policy handbook) say anything about being held responsible for replacing or paying for lost/stolen/damaged daycare property (including damage to the home and the possessions in it)? If so, then yes that is fair since you agreed to it. And she could take you to court (if it's in her contract she will probably win anyway) or sell your debt to a collection agency if you refuse to pay (weather you stay or not). Even if not I would probably at least offer to pay for 1/2 since that was not one of the agreed punishment and since she shouldn't have placed your daughter in an isolated room unsupervised but you still want to make sure your daughter understands that there are consequences to her actions (maybe next time she wants something say "Sorry, the money I could have used to buy that went to cleaning your accident in the room").

Side note: Do you know if she has tried getting it out with a spray bottle that contains a mix of water and 1/4 a cup of white vinegar? I use it to get the smell of my cats urine out of things they pee on- works great and kills bacteria! I would suggest she try this first before doing anything expensive (If she hasn't already). And if she does agree to use it I suggest you smell it before and after to double check to make sure she isn't "exaggerating" or saying that it doesn't work.
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Blackcat31 06:35 AM 05-05-2013
Originally Posted by Unregistered:
***. This is complicated. I have a 3yo DD where the 1st D sometimes stands for darling and other times stands for devilish... She is a challenging child and I am the 1st one to admit it.

She is/was in a home daycare where things have been getting increasingly stressed because of her behavior. She is a strong-willed child who can be hard to handle. (She is also our 2nd, so we have been through this before with a difficult but not too hard kid.)

The daycare we chose professed to not use punishments like time-outs when we picked it almost a year ago. She claimed to have read books like "Setting Limits with your Strong Willed Child" and other books on positive discipline. My DD does not respond well to time-outs in any way and so we worked to chose a care giver who seemed educated on alternatives.


I'm going to make a long story short. On Friday things came to a head and the daycare provider apparently tried to do time-outs (which failed miserably) and ended up placing our DD in her daughter's bedroom and closing the door to enforce the time-out.

In response my DD peed on her child's bed. Not a small accident, but a full out pee that soaked the mattress. I got a call to come get her and I did.

I just got an e-mail telling me that if we want to continue bringing her there, we need to work out a new behavior plan and also pay for the cost to replace the soaked mattress. She claims to have tried to wash it with her green machine and it still smells...

I was hoping to keep my DD there until she starts preschool in the fall (she is being evaluated and will likely get a spot in a special needs school) but that's probably not going to happen.

It's being asked to replace the mattress that's really throwing me for a loop. That seems ridiculous. She should NOT have placed my child in that room in the 1st place. Is this normal?
Did the provider tell you this?

As a provider there is no way I would hold a parent responsible for something that happened behind a closed door as my licensing agency would not be ok with disciplining a child in that manner.

Separating a child from the group is one thing but it cannot be for an extended about of time and MUST be within the capabilities of the provider to properly supervise and when the door is shut that is NOT possible.

Also does your provider have anything in your contract/handbook about broken or destroyed property?

This just sounds wrong....I would not agree to pay my provider for this. NOT if the provider didn't follow rules/regulations of proper discipline.
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Unregistered 07:09 AM 05-05-2013
She did tell me that. She had been trying to make my DD sit on a step and she refused to stay there. They got into a battle of wills about it and the provider lost.

I'm going to look at the contract, but I don't remember anything about having to replace things that break. But this seems fundamentally different from a case of a kid intentionally breaking a toy or something.

What I do know is that I'm totally stressed trying to come up with somewhere for my DD to go on Monday. I have childcare arranged for September, but now I need something for the summer.
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NeedaVaca 07:10 AM 05-05-2013
I'm curious as to how she had been handling the behavior problems up until now (prior to time outs) and also how you handle the behavior problems at home?

When you say "increasingly stressed" I wonder if the provider was trying these methods and they didn't work either? Had you been talking with your provider about behavior and consequences?

I do NOT agree with putting her behind closed doors for a time out but if you plan on keeping your DD there you should try to work out a compromise for the bed. Ask if you can clean it for her yourself? Now, this is just ME, but I would pay for anything my child broke or ruined. I would feel bad and clean or replace it but like I said that's just me.
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Cradle2crayons 07:25 AM 05-05-2013
Call me weird...but I'm still hung up on the info that the OP told the provider no time outs. Time outs are effective if used correctly and consistently and if I'm using time outs for the other kids, I'm using it for ALL the kids. I can just see it now. Johnny goes home and tells mom that he had to go to time out and X child doesn't have to do time outs. Then Johnny's mom calls me up pitching a fit and pretty soon I have no more time outs and the house is shot to heck lol.

First off, I go over my discipline policies at the interview. If a parent doesn't agree to allowing me to discipline the way I do for all, then they may not be a good fit for my home. Same as if they say their kids can't have naps here etc.

That being said, if from day one provider didn't use time out for anyone (doesn't sound like this is the case though, it sounds like she's trying to make mom happy instead of sticking to her policies) then it would be different.

And to address the damage thing ..... If you didn't sign a contract to.pay for damages, then don't. If it were my kid, I would do my best to clean the mattress because I would feel it teaches my child responsibility. Mary, you peed on that mattress and that is NOT appropriate and we have to clean this up etc....

Even if you did sign a form agreeing to pay for damage, in this case I agree it's different. Your child didn't break a toy. Regulations were broken resulting in the damage. If the provider hadn't broken the rules, it wouldn't have happened. I also agree though if you need care and want to stay with this provider, then do what you can to try to compromise. As a mom, I honestly am not sure if I'd want my child to go somewhere they were not safe. I don't know about the providers daughter but mine has scissors in her room. What if your child hadn't gotten a hold of some scissors and hurt herself????? What she did put your daughter in danger. Or at least potentially in danger. In the least, it was neglect.

That's just my two cents, for what it's worth.
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Blackcat31 07:59 AM 05-05-2013
I dont use time outs at all. I find it to be ineffective and have better results with redirection and discussion. For the younger kids, i simply remove the object or activity that is causing issues and make sure our daily routines are consistent.

Discipline needs to be individualized for each child and once your provider found that placing your DD on a step was ineffective, she should have strategized with you about what methods would have been more successful inmodifying your child's behavior.

Repeatedly disciplining in a manner that doesnt work only causes frustration for BOTH the provider and child.

I would remove my child immediately, work on finding a care solution for Monday (as well as summer) and talk with the provider about not being responsible for the damages to the mattress.

I would also consider whether or not to report this to licensing. If the provider is willing to openly admit such methods of disciplining, I cant help but wonder what practices she had that she doesn't tell parents about.

Placing a young child behind a closed door for any length of time is dangerous and very risky imho.
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Unregistered 08:30 AM 05-05-2013
1st: My 3yo (newly 3) has been increasing her defiance recently. She is currently in a stage where if she says 'No' to something, she becomes an immovable object. We are working at finding her currency, but it's really hard right now. We're struggling with her and I sympathize with the DCP about that. I really do. Right now we're getting the best results with clearly stating our expectation and then consequence of not listening and then following through every time. DD is very calculating and it's really hard when she seems to weigh her options and then chose the consequence. We are basically following Setting Limits with your Strong Willed Child.

2nd: I do not agree with time-outs. I am trained as a teacher and believe strongly that reinforcement works far better than punishment. All the research I have read confirms this and so do the guidelines at most daycares. It is absolutely appropriate, for example, to have a child who is making bad choices stick close to the provider rather than get to go play. But I don't think that making a child sit somewhere as a punishment is appropriate or effective.

3rd: That's actually not my problem. If a time-out had worked (on her stairs) I probably wouldn't object too much. I don't like it, but I realize that she needed to try something. It was the closing my kid in a room unsupervised that bothers me.

4: I know my kid has issues. She has been approved for a SN preschool program in the fall. She doesn't have delays (in fact she's a really smart little girl) but she has challenging behaviors that are getting harder and harder to deal with. But, the basic facts are that she does not hit, bite or hurt other children or the DCP. She simply becomes absurdly defiant at times and we don't have any way to diffuse the situation right now.

She's not going back. The DCP is done with her. I think it's too much. She recently had another 2 kids start and she doesn't have the ability/resources/energy right now to deal with my DD. I get that and I will find someone else until the end of the school year. I don't have any interest in causing her trouble. She reached the end of her rope with my kid and made a bad choice. I live with this kid and I get it. I would never have thought that a 3yo could be so difficult.

My thing is that we have paid for next week since we pre-pay 2 weeks at a time (I'm not asking for a refund) and now she wants us to also buy a new mattress.
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Blackcat31 08:41 AM 05-05-2013
Since you arent asking for a refund I would call it over and be done.

If the provider wants to take further action against you I personally do not believe she has a leg to stand on but if she does, I dont think she will be successful.

I am sorry your 3 yr old is so tough.... I had one myself. He is the reason I am in the child care field...

Not many providers had the skills or strength to deal with him. but on a positive note he is now 21 yrs old and a very nice well rounded well behaved contributing member of society that makes this Mama very proud so hang in there.... This too shall pass.
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Cradle2crayons 09:01 AM 05-05-2013
To clarify my previous post, time outs aren't my first choice. My first option is to always re direct, etc. however, if those do not work. I use time outs. I agree ey work better for some and not others, however I don't see them as some horrible punishment that damages a child for life either lol.

Matter of fact, not only do our state licensors recommend it, but it's in our NHI and CDA information as an effective discipline. Not to mention I don't know of a school or daycare here that does NOT use time outs. Of course, our schools here also still do corporal punishment.

I'm not going to say that it's necessary for every child. My son may have been in time out once in the last month, but if I give him that as a consequence to his behavior it's a rare thing he will repeat the behavior because its a wonderful deterrent for him specifically.

While I mentioned in my post that I won't accept a family who disagrees with my discipline techniques or who isn't on the same page with me regarding all of my policies, I don't think it's necessary to respond to that by acting like I'm the devil incarnate for using time outs in my home or daycare setting. It's a choice. I'm educated and have been watching children in my home off and on for 20 years. While I respect others choices on their techniques I ask the same in return. Others may not chose it, but please don't bash me and act like I'm uneducated and inexperienced because I do.

I also have a challenging child who is now 10 as well as one of my step sons who put us through our fair share of misery early in our marriage. He's now 19 in college and also a wonderful member of society. And time outs didn't damage him or me lol.
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Angelsj 09:27 AM 05-05-2013
Originally Posted by Cradle2crayons:
While I mentioned in my post that I won't accept a family who disagrees with my discipline techniques or who isn't on the same page with me regarding all of my policies, I don't think it's necessary to respond to that by acting like I'm the devil incarnate for using time outs in my home or daycare setting. It's a choice. I'm educated and have been watching children in my home off and on for 20 years. While I respect others choices on their techniques I ask the same in return. Others may not chose it, but please don't bash me and act like I'm uneducated and inexperienced because I do.
What are you referring to in the above bolded post? I don't see anyone bashing you in any way. Just BC disagreeing on the use of time outs. Did I miss a post somewhere?
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Cradle2crayons 09:39 AM 05-05-2013
I was simply referring to the way that when people insert their education in the same sentence as saying that time outs aren't appropriate ... That kind of thing it implies that people who use time outs are uneducated and inappropriately "punishing" children. Else it would say "time outs can be effective for some kids and providers I just don't use them"
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Unregistered 10:29 AM 05-05-2013
I think that debating time-outs is a topic for another thread. They haven't been allowed to be used in the two centers we have used, and this provider states in her information that she does not use them. It's in all her official paperwork. She simply reached a point where she had no clue what to do with my kid and had backed herself into a corner.

But, I do not agree with them being used, so I will not place my child into a situation where punishments are used. I agree with teaching children how to behave and using alot of positive discipline. I am probably the strictest parent I know. I have high expectations and work towards them using positive reinforcement.

I am going to respond to her (I was giving it a day for both of us to cool off) and state that I think it would be best for all involved to part ways. I will say that I think that the fees we had paid for next week should help her recoup her losses on the mattress. Hopefully it won't go further than that.
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Angelsj 10:46 AM 05-05-2013
Originally Posted by Cradle2crayons:
I was simply referring to the way that when people insert their education in the same sentence as saying that time outs aren't appropriate ... That kind of thing it implies that people who use time outs are uneducated and inappropriately "punishing" children. Else it would say "time outs can be effective for some kids and providers I just don't use them"
Goodness. I must be completely blind today, as I don't see anyone mentioning education at all.
I agree not everyone puts things into the wording we would like, but since it is the internet and we cannot "hear" their intent, I usually try to give people the benefit of the doubt.

(Unless they start calling me some name that just CANNOT be taken anyway other than mean...but those are usually starred out )
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bunnyslippers 12:33 PM 05-05-2013
OP, you may want to contact your school district. If your daughter qualifies for a SN preschool in the fall, she may also qualify for summer services provided by the school. Some schools have summer programs, other schools contract out with in-home behavioral support. It is definitely worth looking into, as it would be both free and beneficial for your daughter. I am sorry you are having a hard time finding a solution.

I think you made the right call to pull your daughter from this provider. If she felt that desparate, she should have called you to come and get your child. Putting a child in a room, unsupervised, was a bad decision on her part.

As far as the mattress, I think I would probably offer to pay for the damage IF she hadn't put her in an unsupervised situation. Because she closed her in the room, I think she made a mistake that she needs to pay for herself. I feel badly that her child's mattress is ruined, but she made the choice to put your child in that room, knowing that she had behavioral issues. It is a natural consequence for that provider.
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nannyde 01:35 PM 05-05-2013
Originally Posted by Unregistered:
She did tell me that. She had been trying to make my DD sit on a step and she refused to stay there. They got into a battle of wills about it and the provider lost.

I'm going to look at the contract, but I don't remember anything about having to replace things that break. But this seems fundamentally different from a case of a kid intentionally breaking a toy or something.

What I do know is that I'm totally stressed trying to come up with somewhere for my DD to go on Monday. I have childcare arranged for September, but now I need something for the summer.
Did you enroll her in the home daycare as a special needs child and has the provider been compensated well for the special care she has received?
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nannyde 01:41 PM 05-05-2013
Originally Posted by Unregistered:
She did tell me that. She had been trying to make my DD sit on a step and she refused to stay there. They got into a battle of wills about it and the provider lost.

I'm going to look at the contract, but I don't remember anything about having to replace things that break. But this seems fundamentally different from a case of a kid intentionally breaking a toy or something.

What I do know is that I'm totally stressed trying to come up with somewhere for my DD to go on Monday. I have childcare arranged for September, but now I need something for the summer.
make sure your summer provider has full knowledge of your child's mental health special needs. Behavioral special needs is a mental health special needs. Make sure you offer compensation that allows your child to have the "side by side" supervision you want instead of time out and away. Side by side supervision is EXPENSIVE. Offer to pay for that upfront every week. The school receiving your child in September will be funded for her mental health care. Between now and then YOU need to make sure it's in place.
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blandino 01:42 PM 05-05-2013
Originally Posted by nannyde:
Did you enroll her in the home daycare as a special needs child and has the provider been compensated well for the special care she has received?

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Unregistered 02:16 PM 05-05-2013
Originally Posted by nannyde:
Did you enroll her in the home daycare as a special needs child and has the provider been compensated well for the special care she has received?
When she was enrolled (at just before two) she was a normal toddler. At that point we had no concerns. In fact, it wasn't until shortly before she turned 3 that we started to experience behavior that was out of the norm. Before that she had her moments (like many kids) but was pretty easy going most of the time. It's been ramping up over the last 6 months or so.

We are lucky that we went through some of this stuff with our older DD (completely different issues) so we are on top of what needs to be done. We also have a SN preschool program in our neighborhood school so her enrollment there was easy to secure.

The daycare she will be in next year is aware of the issues as they are associated with the school and work well with the program there.

Has the provider been especially compensated? Not explicitly. She is, by no means, the cheapest provider we looked into. We have been paying $800/month for the 3yo (although she normally only goes 4 days/week) and $400/month for our 6yo who is in full time school and walks herself to and from school. (the provider lives just down the street from the school and can see the front door from her home). But, since the troubles have started we have been trying to have her there less wondering if she was getting overwhelmed. DH has been working his schedule so that he goes in early and can pick the girls up at 4pm which is 1.5hours before our contracted time. (And as a benefit she only has our 6yo for about 45 minutes in the afternoons and 45 minutes in the morning.)
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nannyde 06:41 PM 05-05-2013
Originally Posted by Unregistered:
When she was enrolled (at just before two) she was a normal toddler. At that point we had no concerns. In fact, it wasn't until shortly before she turned 3 that we started to experience behavior that was out of the norm. Before that she had her moments (like many kids) but was pretty easy going most of the time. It's been ramping up over the last 6 months or so.

We are lucky that we went through some of this stuff with our older DD (completely different issues) so we are on top of what needs to be done. We also have a SN preschool program in our neighborhood school so her enrollment there was easy to secure.

The daycare she will be in next year is aware of the issues as they are associated with the school and work well with the program there.

Has the provider been especially compensated? Not explicitly. She is, by no means, the cheapest provider we looked into. We have been paying $800/month for the 3yo (although she normally only goes 4 days/week) and $400/month for our 6yo who is in full time school and walks herself to and from school. (the provider lives just down the street from the school and can see the front door from her home). But, since the troubles have started we have been trying to have her there less wondering if she was getting overwhelmed. DH has been working his schedule so that he goes in early and can pick the girls up at 4pm which is 1.5hours before our contracted time. (And as a benefit she only has our 6yo for about 45 minutes in the afternoons and 45 minutes in the morning.)
Once you were aware her behavior warranted special care you should have offered to explicitly pay for the services. When your child needs special care the worker needs to be well compensated. Your description of the providers lack of skills and tolerance tell you the truth. It's too much work for a normal person with normal skills for normal pay. If you would have offered to pay for additional adult time while she was there this most likely wouldn't have happened. She would have the extra adult to do side by side care. Do you see how side by side care is EXPENSIVE? Most providers won't do it for free for too long. I won't. It's exhausting and hard.
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Cradle2crayons 06:52 PM 05-05-2013
Originally Posted by nannyde:
Once you were aware her behavior warranted special care you should have offered to explicitly pay for the services. When your child needs special care the worker needs to be well compensated. Your description of the providers lack of skills and tolerance tell you the truth. It's too much work for a normal person with normal skills for normal pay. If you would have offered to pay for additional adult time while she was there this most likely wouldn't have happened. She would have the extra adult to do side by side care. Do you see how side by side care is EXPENSIVE? Most providers won't do it for free for too long. I won't. It's exhausting and hard.
I won't either. Although I do have a special physical need baby and yes, I'm compensated very well for her care, even though I don't have to sit attached to her every minute... She does require special care...and hence, special pay.

I can tell you right now if I'd ever had my daughter in care I'd have had to rob a bank to pay a provider what they deserved to watch her lol
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MyAngels 07:29 PM 05-05-2013
From my provider's point of view I would not have expected reimbursement for the mattress, but I wouldn't have placed your dd in a room alone, either .

From my parent point of view, if I had a sometimes "devilish" child I would want to pay her for damages caused by my child - particularly in this instance as the damage was done intentionally.
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racemom 07:37 PM 05-05-2013
Originally Posted by Unregistered:
I think that debating time-outs is a topic for another thread. They haven't been allowed to be used in the two centers we have used, and this provider states in her information that she does not use them. It's in all her official paperwork. She simply reached a point where she had no clue what to do with my kid and had backed herself into a corner.

But, I do not agree with them being used, so I will not place my child into a situation where punishments are used. I agree with teaching children how to behave and using alot of positive discipline. I am probably the strictest parent I know. I have high expectations and work towards them using positive reinforcement.

I am going to respond to her (I was giving it a day for both of us to cool off) and state that I think it would be best for all involved to part ways. I will say that I think that the fees we had paid for next week should help her recoup her losses on the mattress. Hopefully it won't go further than that.
I am wondering what positive discipline is? I hope that isn't a stupid question but I honestly have no idea what it means.
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Cradle2crayons 09:02 PM 05-05-2013
Originally Posted by racemom:
I am wondering what positive discipline is? I hope that isn't a stupid question but I honestly have no idea what it means.
Maybe she means positive reinforcement??? I don't view time outs as PUNISHMENT but discipline.

"Teaching a child how to behave" .... Well I kinda thought that was the point of discipline lol.... I dunno it sounds confusing to me.

It makes perfect sense to me why kids get confused... Right now I'm confused too lol
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NeedaVaca 04:55 AM 05-06-2013
You say you don't want to place her in a daycare that uses punishment. You also mentioned in another post that she will choose a consequence. Can I ask what type of consequences she gets when she misbehaves?
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Cradle2crayons 04:57 AM 05-06-2013
Originally Posted by NeedaVaca:
You say you don't want to place her in a daycare that uses punishment. You also mentioned in another post that she will choose a consequence. Can I ask what type of consequences she gets when she misbehaves?
I'm wondering the same thing too.... If time outs are so damaging why even give a consequence?? And wouldn't a consequence be considered punishment too?? I can assure you, even my daughter at her worst in the behavior times never chose ANY consequence I gave her lol...
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Angelsj 04:57 AM 05-06-2013
Originally Posted by Cradle2crayons:
Maybe she means positive reinforcement??? I don't view time outs as PUNISHMENT but discipline.

"Teaching a child how to behave" .... Well I kinda thought that was the point of discipline lol.... I dunno it sounds confusing to me.

It makes perfect sense to me why kids get confused... Right now I'm confused too lol


Discipline is teaching from the root "disciple", and can be positive or negative. You can teach in either a positive (reward for good behavior) or a negative (time out for bad behavior.)

Negative does not mean "bad" it simply means we are taking something away (freedom of movement, kid's bike, the toy in dispute) to discourage a certain behavior, rather than adding something (extra privilege, getting the toy back, more freedom) for a certain behavior.


Actually you can have both "positive" or "negative" punishment as well.

Here is a good example of how this works.
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momofboys 04:59 AM 05-06-2013
Whether you are paying a 2 week notice (or paid in advance) IMO has nothing to do with the mattress damage. In essence you are saying she should take the damages out of that (2 week notice). If my child caused damage to someone else's property I would pay to clean or replace it no matter what!
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Cradle2crayons 05:01 AM 05-06-2013
Originally Posted by Angelsj:
Discipline is teaching from the root "disciple", and can be positive or negative. You can teach in either a positive (reward for good behavior) or a negative (time out for bad behavior.)

Negative does not mean "bad" it simply means we are taking something away (freedom of movement, kid's bike, the toy in dispute) to discourage a certain behavior, rather than adding something (extra privilege, getting the toy back, more freedom) for a certain behavior.


Actually you can have both "positive" or "negative" punishment as well.

Here is a good example of how this works.

Thanks... But lol I actually wasn't really confused..l
I'm well aware that time outs isn't punishment but is discipline but apparently it's thought that anything other than rewarding good behavior is punishment. Don't get me wrong, I believe highly I positive reinforcement and we do a lot of that here. But there is a time and place for negative consequences too...
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Angelsj 05:36 AM 05-06-2013
Originally Posted by Cradle2crayons:
Thanks... But lol I actually wasn't really confused..l
I'm well aware that time outs isn't punishment but is discipline but apparently it's thought that anything other than rewarding good behavior is punishment. Don't get me wrong, I believe highly I positive reinforcement and we do a lot of that here. But there is a time and place for negative consequences too...
That was more aimed at the one who posted above you, who was asking about positive discipline. Probably should have quoted that one.
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Play Care 05:38 AM 05-06-2013
I have a policy regarding damages, but in this case I would NOT pursue damages. Why? Because it is legally wrong to shut a day care child in a room as a method of discipline. In my state it is considered abuse. Rather than pursue damages I would be praying to G*d the parent didn't turn me in...
I can't imagine saying to a parent "I shut your child in a room ALONE because they wouldn't listen" and expect them to be okay with it.

And to be honest, as soon as the child starting showing behaviors that were out of the "normal" range, I would have ended the relationship as I am NOT a special needs provider. I simply do not have the resources and would hate to short change a child.
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Unregistered 07:08 AM 05-06-2013
I need to clarify. I mentioned "positive discipline" not "positive punishment", there is a series of books on the topic including one aimed at childcare providers: http://www.amazon.com/Positive-Disci...848102&sr=1-12.

Also, the basic definitions of reinforcement VS punishment center around whether or not you want the behavior in question to increase or decrease. Punishment is used to decrease unwanted behavior whereas reinforcement is used to increase desired behavior. From that, time-outs are punishments. Whether they are positive (adding something) or negative (taking away) depends on how they are phrased and used. Requiring the child to take a break to calm down or regroup where they can rejoin activites when they are ready is a useful strategy. Isolating the child in a punitive manner for an arbitrary length of time is less so.

At home? It's hard because the issues we have are different from the ones the provider had. But mainly we use natural or logical consequences and I understand that those aren't always available in a group care setting.

I have more details on the situation which happened. My DD decided (for reasons unknown to anyone which also just don't matter) to dump a container of toys which had just been tidied up. The provider told her to pick them up and she refused. They argued and DD dug her heels in in that very special 3yo way and things escalated. I get it. When a 3yo stands there and with very little emotion just keeps saying "no" no matter what consequence you threaten it is infuriating. At home, I would have removed those toys from circulation which I understand isn't an option in a daycare. I actually have no ideas, because the problem that we are facing is that when she decides to be, she is just completely defiant and we do not know what her currency is to get her to bend.

I would actually be willing to try time-outs and other punishments if they had a hope of working. But they don't. They become a power struggle and my kid has unfortunately figured out that she has control over her bladder/bowls and uses that basically as a weapon to retaliate.
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Unregistered 07:12 AM 05-06-2013
Originally Posted by Cradle2crayons:
I'm wondering the same thing too.... If time outs are so damaging why even give a consequence?? And wouldn't a consequence be considered punishment too?? I can assure you, even my daughter at her worst in the behavior times never chose ANY consequence I gave her lol...
The distinction to me is that a consequence has as connection to the behvior. You throw a toy and the toy is taken away are linked. You throw a toy and have to go sit on a chair for 3 minutes are less connected. You act like a crazy person and need to go sit in a quiet spot to calm down? That's a logical progression.

Maybe it's a matter of semantics, but it is important to us. It is also important to other daycare providers.

I actually learned about most of this stuff through the daycare my oldest attended that ran workshops for parents.
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Blackcat31 07:45 AM 05-06-2013
I choose to not use time out because I find them to be ineffective.

I don't believe time outs to be effective because I feel that removing a child and making them sit alone in time out while they are feeling angry, frustrated or upset goes DIRECTLY against one of the three primary needs people have.....the need for close secure attachment.

I think that children are basically hardwired to form a secure connection to their caregiver and that secure attachment is so important to their healthy normal development.
Sending a child away from that caregiver while they are feeling the most vulnerable in an essence plays DIRECTLY against that secure attachment we are trying to build with them.

When an angry/frustrated child is sent to time out, the only thing they are feeling besides alienation is anxiety.

What ever a child did to warrant a time out is EXACTLY the time in which they need that caregiver to help them calm down, feel secure and work through whatever frustrated or out of control emotions and feelings they are experiencing.

A child in that position shouldn't be sent to time out so they can sit and figure it out themselves....they don't have the tools or ability in which to do that.

Most children are incapable of doing that and in my personal opinion when we send a child off to time out, we are essentially telling them that we can't handle them and I think children need their caregivers to function as the one in charge and the one who has control of the situation because they look to us as that safe place.

When we (as the one's in charge) tell a child to sit in time out, I believe the message we are sending them is that they now have the capabilities to effect our abilities to stay in charge and be the voice of reason. We are reinforcing to the child that they have some sort of control of the situation as a whole.

I also believe time outs teach children to see themselves as bad. It also promotes others (playmates) to view that child as bad also. They see their friends and playmates being sent to time out and will begin to label their friends as bad.

I don't feel timeouts teach children to manage their emotions.

Time outs are a fantastic way for ME to manage MY emotions and keep them regulated when necessary....standing in the bathroom with the door closed for a few minutes works wonders for me but I already have a secure and stable feeling of who I am so that time out isn't necessary reinforcing anything negative for me other than a few minutes of peace and calmness.

My two cents on time out.
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daycarediva 09:13 AM 05-06-2013
What is your daughter diagnosed with that she is going to special needs preschool?

I would terminate the contract, pay the remaining balance (2 weeks is typical) and be done with it.

It's against regs here to close a child in a room at any time for any reason. I would definitely get a licensing visit if a parent reported that.

I only use time out (taking a break here) when a child's behavior is out of control and they need time to throw a fit/scream/cry and regain control of themselves. It's not seen negatively here at all. Even kids who are just starting to lose their cool will now say "I am going to take a break" and put themselves in the quiet corner and relax for a few. The child can chose when to get up and then we talk about it. I am teaching them a skill that will last a lifetime, how to control their behavior. Reminders of desired behavior, positive reinforcement, redirection and communication are key here.
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EntropyControlSpecialist 09:31 AM 05-06-2013
Originally Posted by Play Care:
I have a policy regarding damages, but in this case I would NOT pursue damages. Why? Because it is legally wrong to shut a day care child in a room as a method of discipline. In my state it is considered abuse. Rather than pursue damages I would be praying to G*d the parent didn't turn me in...
I can't imagine saying to a parent "I shut your child in a room ALONE because they wouldn't listen" and expect them to be okay with it.


And to be honest, as soon as the child starting showing behaviors that were out of the "normal" range, I would have ended the relationship as I am NOT a special needs provider. I simply do not have the resources and would hate to short change a child.
I agree!
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Unregistered 11:07 AM 05-06-2013
Originally Posted by daycarediva:
What is your daughter diagnosed with that she is going to special needs preschool?
She doesn't have an official diagnosis yet. Her behaviors were flagged during the initial screening and they agree that it is a good placement for her. We are suspecting that she is on the spectrum due to an increasing number of issues.

Luckily, I have a friend who an take her this week, so I have some breathing room to figure things out. That leaves me with 6 weeks of care needed and I'll figure something out.
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Sugar Magnolia 12:25 PM 05-06-2013
Don't pay a dime. 'Nuff said. Absolutely inappropriate to shut her in a room.
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Crystal 12:47 PM 05-06-2013
As provider, I wouldn't expect you to pay, and your child should not have been placed alone in a room for even one minute.

That being said, as a parent, I have to disagree with your "approach" to "discipline".

Your child KNOWS that she has control because she never expereinces any "negative" consequesnces for her behavior. She throws screaming fits and DEMANDS to have her way because you "know her currency" but it leaves the provider very little to work with. I could be wrong, but It also seems as though you are creating a "special need" for her so that her behavior will be acceptable in group care. I have actually had a couple of parents do that in the past here at my program. Their children were FINE here, with me. BUT, at home, not so much. SO, they went to every single place they could find until they got a diagnosis that got them the free, special needs care that they wanted for their children. Their children were perfectly capable of being in group care with typically developing children, the parents simply could not figure out why they didn't behave for THEM, so they gave it a name.

Please, do your child a favor and give her REAL consequences for her behavior. Simply removing a toy that she isn't using correctly while allowing her to continue playing with others lets her know that she is the one in control. Sure, this is effective some time....but if that is ALL you do ALL the time, well, she knows It is truly a real disservice to your child....she needs more firm, clear boundaries.

BTW....I don't say these things lightly. I don't use time out, but I certainly WILL NOT allow a child to tantrum and be out of control on my watch. Your child needs a firm, loving provider who COMMANDS RESPECT, while giving respect back for appropriate behavior.
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daycarediva 01:55 PM 05-06-2013
Originally Posted by Unregistered:
She doesn't have an official diagnosis yet. Her behaviors were flagged during the initial screening and they agree that it is a good placement for her. We are suspecting that she is on the spectrum due to an increasing number of issues.

Luckily, I have a friend who an take her this week, so I have some breathing room to figure things out. That leaves me with 6 weeks of care needed and I'll figure something out.
Suspecting that a child is on the spectrum wouldn't warrant a special needs preschool. Those spaces should be reserved for those who truly need them, imho. ASD is now one of the most overdiagnosed conditions, simply because a child is willful, defiant and has severe behavioral issues does NOT mean that they are special needs or have ASD.

I have a son with ASD and his behavior is impeccable, he has FIRM consequences for intentional misbehavior. He is very smart and fully understands rules, as your dd does, but with your dd, there doesn't seem to be many consequences for not following rules. Hence the out of control behavior.
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daycarediva 01:58 PM 05-06-2013
Originally Posted by Crystal:
As provider, I wouldn't expect you to pay, and your child should not have been placed alone in a room for even one minute.

That being said, as a parent, I have to disagree with your "approach" to "discipline".

Your child KNOWS that she has control because she never expereinces any "negative" consequesnces for her behavior. She throws screaming fits and DEMANDS to have her way because you "know her currency" but it leaves the provider very little to work with. I could be wrong, but It also seems as though you are creating a "special need" for her so that her behavior will be acceptable in group care. I have actually had a couple of parents do that in the past here at my program. Their children were FINE here, with me. BUT, at home, not so much. SO, they went to every single place they could find until they got a diagnosis that got them the free, special needs care that they wanted for their children. Their children were perfectly capable of being in group care with typically developing children, the parents simply could not figure out why they didn't behave for THEM, so they gave it a name.

Please, do your child a favor and give her REAL consequences for her behavior. Simply removing a toy that she isn't using correctly while allowing her to continue playing with others lets her know that she is the one in control. Sure, this is effective some time....but if that is ALL you do ALL the time, well, she knows It is truly a real disservice to your child....she needs more firm, clear boundaries.

BTW....I don't say these things lightly. I don't use time out, but I certainly WILL NOT allow a child to tantrum and be out of control on my watch. Your child needs a firm, loving provider who COMMANDS RESPECT, while giving respect back for appropriate behavior.
couldn't agree more.

I see more and more out of control children whose parents simply don't have control of the situation and look for a diagnosis to blame their child's behavior on. The CHILD is in control and is fully aware of that situation and takes FULL advantage.

On the other side of this, if your dd IS special needs, ASD, whatever, and you haven't sought an actual diagnosis, and therapies and an appropriate child care situation, I find that terrible. If she is special needs, she is REALLY struggling and what are YOU as a parent doing to help that?
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Cradle2crayons 02:13 PM 05-06-2013
Originally Posted by daycarediva:
Suspecting that a child is on the spectrum wouldn't warrant a special needs preschool. Those spaces should be reserved for those who truly need them, imho. ASD is now one of the most overdiagnosed conditions, simply because a child is willful, defiant and has severe behavioral issues does NOT mean that they are special needs or have ASD.

I have a son with ASD and his behavior is impeccable, he has FIRM consequences for intentional misbehavior. He is very smart and fully understands rules, as your dd does, but with your dd, there doesn't seem to be many consequences for not following rules. Hence the out of control behavior.
Totally agree. My daughter has severe ADHD, sensory processing disorder, oppositional defiance, and conduct disorder. All of those were diagnosed years ago. However, her psychiatrist was awesome and insisted that we immediately begin family counseling and boy did that teach me a lot. She was our first biological child and was sick a lot as a baby. Admittedly, spending a lot of time in the hospital, we spoiled her to the point she had gained control in a lot of areas. We knew it. She knew it. The doc told us then that none of these diagnoses were excuses for any bad behaviors. Now, don't get me wrong, she wasn't a terror or anything. Matter of fact, she didn't really have hardly any bad behavior at all at that point. But she was definitely in control. The worst part was that oh my gosh she was stubborn, it drove me nuts. It was a battle of the wills at my house for a while.

While she's still a strong willed little girl, the psychiatrist saved my sanity. While therapy and counseling did teach me how to better understand her, it clearly defined that there were no excuses and that she had to be held accountable for her actions regardless of her diagnosis. I refuse to make excuses because of a diagnosis. And at 10, she's well aware of that. Therapy also helped her understand herself a lot and that was a huge step. She is a straight a student, scores advanced in all areas of testing, and reads a high school level. There is no Iep or any other special program involved. She does well with her peers.

I agree that just because a child is defiant that doesn't mean they should be immediately placed in a special needs anything. Certainly those resources are hard to find in many areas and should be used for those who really need them. I'm curious as to what "behaviors" qualified the child as well. And was the person doing the assessment actually qualified to determine the difference between a child who may not be receiving determining discipline at home and a child who is in real emotional or psychological trouble.
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Unregistered 04:06 PM 05-06-2013
I said before that the preschool is both special needs as well as peer students. She was initially registered as a peer student since it is at our neighborhood school. At her intake assessment (for all students), they flagged her file for followup with more detailed assessments. Right now it's the fastest way to work towards figuring out what's going on.

I also want to say that we do not experience the same behavior at home that the provider reported from daycare. That made it hard to figure out how to help. We also have more tools available to us. Like, I can remove toys from being able to be played with if she refuses to clean them up which I understand doesn't work in a group setting where all the kids want/need to play.

I'm also in Canada where there are hoops to jump through. I can't simple go get a diagnosis. We are playing by the rules and working quickly. It's been 6 months since things started. Visits to the doctor were met with, "It's likely a phase, let's wait and see" since she was just 3. She will be evaluated in September (probably the 1st month since her file has been flagged and she will be in the 1st set of assessments) and we will move from there.
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nannyde 04:23 PM 05-06-2013
Originally Posted by Sugar Magnolia:
Don't pay a dime. 'Nuff said. Absolutely inappropriate to shut her in a room.
She wants side by side care Shug. You don't think that should be paid for? The kid is not a special needs child as of now. Just a flagged kid going in prek as a peer to special needs kids. As parent discussed, they are having difficulties at hoe and she sympathizes with the provider. She KNOWS the kid has poor behavior and wants special one to one side by side.

Why shouldn't she put her money behind that want?
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nannyde 04:27 PM 05-06-2013
Originally Posted by Unregistered:
She doesn't have an official diagnosis yet. Her behaviors were flagged during the initial screening and they agree that it is a good placement for her. We are suspecting that she is on the spectrum due to an increasing number of issues.

Luckily, I have a friend who an take her this week, so I have some breathing room to figure things out. That leaves me with 6 weeks of care needed and I'll figure something out.
I wish I could figure out how to get on the “on the spectrum" money wagon. It's the hottest ticket in town. Often it means the kid has terrible behavior but is gifted.

It won't be long before on the spectrum is so expensive that it changes back to just poor behavior.
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craftymissbeth 04:41 PM 05-06-2013
Originally Posted by nannyde:
She wants side by side care Shug. You don't think that should be paid for? The kid is not a special needs child as of now. Just a flagged kid going in prek as a peer to special needs kids. As parent discussed, they are having difficulties at hoe and she sympathizes with the provider. She KNOWS the kid has poor behavior and wants special one to one side by side.

Why shouldn't she put her money behind that want?

I agree that if you need special you should pay for it, but at the same time the parent's rate isn't in question here. If the provider felt she needed to be compensated for any extra she was providing, then she should have stepped up and requested it.



With that said, though, the provider had no business sticking a child in a bedroom alone... especially not to discipline them!
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JoseyJo 08:59 AM 05-07-2013
I totally agree that the provider was wrong in putting the child in a room alone, for any reason. Sounds like she was at her wits end.

That being said it also sounds like she wasn't given enough strategies to work with.

I'm sorry, but "finding her currency" sounds ridiculous to me! In my experience to a strong willed child there is no currency ever more important than being in charge and winning the battle. There has to be an enforceable consequence to every inappropriate action.

Not saying that every child is the same, but every child should have to follow the same rules while in group care. And you should totally have to pay for it if you want side by side or "special"!!!
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daycarediva 11:17 AM 05-07-2013
Originally Posted by Unregistered:
I said before that the preschool is both special needs as well as peer students. She was initially registered as a peer student since it is at our neighborhood school. At her intake assessment (for all students), they flagged her file for followup with more detailed assessments. Right now it's the fastest way to work towards figuring out what's going on.

I also want to say that we do not experience the same behavior at home that the provider reported from daycare. That made it hard to figure out how to help. We also have more tools available to us. Like, I can remove toys from being able to be played with if she refuses to clean them up which I understand doesn't work in a group setting where all the kids want/need to play.

I'm also in Canada where there are hoops to jump through. I can't simple go get a diagnosis. We are playing by the rules and working quickly. It's been 6 months since things started. Visits to the doctor were met with, "It's likely a phase, let's wait and see" since she was just 3. She will be evaluated in September (probably the 1st month since her file has been flagged and she will be in the 1st set of assessments) and we will move from there.
There are always hoops to jump through. ALWAYS. I paid for a private developmental specialist out of pocket when there was a waiting list, I also paid for therapies out of pocket until my DS was able to be enrolled in special needs preschool as there was a waiting list. There is NO excuse to just leave your 'special needs' child with a provider who cannot handle her and NOT follow through with diagnosis and therapy. No excuse at ALL.

Also, from a providers prospective, she probably thought the special needs was crap and that you were just looking for an excuse for her behavior.
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daycarediva 11:19 AM 05-07-2013
Originally Posted by nannyde:
I wish I could figure out how to get on the “on the spectrum" money wagon. It's the hottest ticket in town. Often it means the kid has terrible behavior but is gifted.

It won't be long before on the spectrum is so expensive that it changes back to just poor behavior.


I have had a few kids in my care who were terribly behaved and the parents blame a disorder----not lack of discipline and parenting. Even WITH the disorder there isn't an excuse, IMHO.
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craftymissbeth 12:02 PM 05-07-2013
I just went over this whole situation with my sister who is not a daycare provider and who has her children in an in home daycare (not mine because I don't take family). Anyhoo, this is her take...


Yes, it's wrong to put a child in a room alone with the door shut, but if that provider was frustrated enough to feel that she could potentially injure the child and needed to cool off herself, then it could have been for the best that she put her in the room. Of course the provider would never admit to getting to that point of frustration, but it's a possibility.
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Greenplasticwateringcans 02:28 PM 05-07-2013
Originally Posted by craftymissbeth:
I just went over this whole situation with my sister who is not a daycare provider and who has her children in an in home daycare (not mine because I don't take family). Anyhoo, this is her take...


Yes, it's wrong to put a child in a room alone with the door shut, but if that provider was frustrated enough to feel that she could potentially injure the child and needed to cool off herself, then it could have been for the best that she put her in the room. Of course the provider would never admit to getting to that point of frustration, but it's a possibility.

That's pretty much what I was thinking could have happened too. Not saying what she did was okay but sometimes it's better then the alternative thoughts....
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youretooloud 03:59 PM 05-07-2013
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
I dont use time outs at all. I find it to be ineffective and have better results with redirection and discussion. For the younger kids, i simply remove the object or activity that is causing issues and make sure our daily routines are consistent.

Discipline needs to be individualized for each child and once your provider found that placing your DD on a step was ineffective, she should have strategized with you about what methods would have been more successful inmodifying your child's behavior.
Me too!
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daycare 05:16 PM 05-07-2013
Originally Posted by Crystal:
As provider, I wouldn't expect you to pay, and your child should not have been placed alone in a room for even one minute.

That being said, as a parent, I have to disagree with your "approach" to "discipline".

Your child KNOWS that she has control because she never expereinces any "negative" consequesnces for her behavior. She throws screaming fits and DEMANDS to have her way because you "know her currency" but it leaves the provider very little to work with. I could be wrong, but It also seems as though you are creating a "special need" for her so that her behavior will be acceptable in group care. I have actually had a couple of parents do that in the past here at my program. Their children were FINE here, with me. BUT, at home, not so much. SO, they went to every single place they could find until they got a diagnosis that got them the free, special needs care that they wanted for their children. Their children were perfectly capable of being in group care with typically developing children, the parents simply could not figure out why they didn't behave for THEM, so they gave it a name.

Please, do your child a favor and give her REAL consequences for her behavior. Simply removing a toy that she isn't using correctly while allowing her to continue playing with others lets her know that she is the one in control. Sure, this is effective some time....but if that is ALL you do ALL the time, well, she knows It is truly a real disservice to your child....she needs more firm, clear boundaries.

BTW....I don't say these things lightly. I don't use time out, but I certainly WILL NOT allow a child to tantrum and be out of control on my watch. Your child needs a firm, loving provider who COMMANDS RESPECT, while giving respect back for appropriate behavior.
I agree .... I have worked with many of kids that sound similar to this child.

I didnt get to read everything but have you thought about the power of choice? Giving options? I find this to be very effective for children who are very strong willed.
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cheerfuldom 08:01 PM 05-09-2013
mmmm....I am seeing some odd things here that have me thinking something is not quite right....you say she is a challenge at home in one post but in the next, you say you don't see the behaviors that the DCP is seeing....am I wrong?

Either way, I would go by what your contract says. If it says no refunds are made after a payment is made, you will not be able to get that last weeks worth of payment back. If it says that you pay for damaged items, you should pay for the mattress. If you feel strongly that the timeout was outside of the agreed upon discipline plan, then you can refuse the mattress pay and fight it in court should she try to get you to pay damages (which I doubt she would). Is she licensed? If you feel that the timeout was against licensing policies (the fact that a 3 yo was shut in a room alone) then please report her and let licensing decide.

no matter what happens, please keep all future teachers and providers well aware of your daughter's challenges! It sounds like the provider was really in over her head here and it was best to just go your separate ways anyway.
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Meyou 02:39 AM 05-10-2013
Originally Posted by Unregistered:
I said before that the preschool is both special needs as well as peer students. She was initially registered as a peer student since it is at our neighborhood school. At her intake assessment (for all students), they flagged her file for followup with more detailed assessments. Right now it's the fastest way to work towards figuring out what's going on.

I also want to say that we do not experience the same behavior at home that the provider reported from daycare. That made it hard to figure out how to help. We also have more tools available to us. Like, I can remove toys from being able to be played with if she refuses to clean them up which I understand doesn't work in a group setting where all the kids want/need to play.

I'm also in Canada where there are hoops to jump through. I can't simple go get a diagnosis. We are playing by the rules and working quickly. It's been 6 months since things started. Visits to the doctor were met with, "It's likely a phase, let's wait and see" since she was just 3. She will be evaluated in September (probably the 1st month since her file has been flagged and she will be in the 1st set of assessments) and we will move from there.
I've never heard of hoops to jump through in Canada other than potentially a wait time for evaluation if you don't have private insurance. I just had a DCB diagnosed with a variety of issues and other than waiting for appointment times (the first appt was a 4 week wait) there were no hoops. They talked to their family doctor, they were referred to a psychiatrist, DCB did the testing and evaluation over a couple of months of sessions and then there was another wait of 6 weeks waiting for the "official" report although diagnosis and treatment began right away.

I have another former DCB who had almost an identical experience when he was diagnosed 5 years ago.
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daycarediva 09:12 AM 05-10-2013
Originally Posted by Meyou:
I've never heard of hoops to jump through in Canada other than potentially a wait time for evaluation if you don't have private insurance. I just had a DCB diagnosed with a variety of issues and other than waiting for appointment times (the first appt was a 4 week wait) there were no hoops. They talked to their family doctor, they were referred to a psychiatrist, DCB did the testing and evaluation over a couple of months of sessions and then there was another wait of 6 weeks waiting for the "official" report although diagnosis and treatment began right away.

I have another former DCB who had almost an identical experience when he was diagnosed 5 years ago.


I really believe this little girl is just out of control and the parents refuse to acknowledge it and the provider was at her limit with the lax discipline.
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Angelsj 10:02 AM 05-10-2013
Originally Posted by nannyde:
I wish I could figure out how to get on the “on the spectrum" money wagon. It's the hottest ticket in town. Often it means the kid has terrible behavior but is gifted.

It won't be long before on the spectrum is so expensive that it changes back to just poor behavior.
So I can assume none of your own children are "on the spectrum." This is one of the most ignorant statements I have seen you make.
No matter what is going on there will be some parents who use an excuse to not make their child behave, but unless you have parented a child who is autistic or has asperger's syndrome, you really can't understand what it means.

People with your attitude have been making my and my children's lives miserable for 23 years.
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countrymom 10:41 AM 05-10-2013
I'm going to be blunt. Your dd is ruling the roost. Time to wake up and stop blaming everyone.

Your dd isn't special needs, she needs discipline. Time outs don't work, ha, have you even tried them. Do you know how to do them right.

Your dd dumped toys on the floor and refused to clean up, she knew what she was doing. So a consequence needs to follow. What are you going to do when she goes to the store, hide all the stuff so she doesn't throw things on the floor. Lady wake up, your dd's situation is fixable.

also, I find it odd that your provider told you that she put your dd in a room and shut the door and then admit it???

also, I'm curious what kind of discipline do you use at home, I don't see anywhere in the posts what you acually use. You can't keep redirecting kids, its just doesn't work with everyone, and you said you were a teacher so you should know.

also, what kind of preschool do we have in canada?????? Do you mean junior kindy. And Esp. one that deals with sn kids. Because we have specific centers, not preschools.
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countrymom 10:47 AM 05-10-2013
Originally Posted by Angelsj:
So I can assume none of your own children are "on the spectrum." This is one of the most ignorant statements I have seen you make.
No matter what is going on there will be some parents who use an excuse to not make their child behave, but unless you have parented a child who is autistic or has asperger's syndrome, you really can't understand what it means.

People with your attitude have been making my and my children's lives miserable for 23 years.
I don't think she is meaning kids who are really diagnosed. Because I have to totally agree with her. I have never ever seen a rise in such silliness. Here in canada you can apply for money to help you out. I can see kids who get properly diagnosed, but there are so many kids whos parents "diagnose" them and then call it special needs. Even teachers are now saying most kids have adhd (ds's teacher even said this to me because ds goes to the bathroom twice a day at school--I kid you not, he thinks ds has adhd)
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RosieMommy 10:47 AM 05-10-2013
Originally Posted by Meyou:
I've never heard of hoops to jump through in Canada other than potentially a wait time for evaluation if you don't have private insurance. I just had a DCB diagnosed with a variety of issues and other than waiting for appointment times (the first appt was a 4 week wait) there were no hoops. They talked to their family doctor, they were referred to a psychiatrist, DCB did the testing and evaluation over a couple of months of sessions and then there was another wait of 6 weeks waiting for the "official" report although diagnosis and treatment began right away.

I have another former DCB who had almost an identical experience when he was diagnosed 5 years ago.
It sounds like the waiting for the evaluation are the "hoops" to which she was referring.
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Cradle2crayons 10:50 AM 05-10-2013
It's not muc different here in the state I'm in. When my daughter was first assessed we waited 2 months for the add part of the assessment because only one guy local does it. Then we waited another month for the psychiatrist appointment. Then we had to wait for the official results etc....
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RosieMommy 10:52 AM 05-10-2013
Originally Posted by countrymom:
I don't think she is meaning kids who are really diagnosed. Because I have to totally agree with her. I have never ever seen a rise in such silliness. Here in canada you can apply for money to help you out. I can see kids who get properly diagnosed, but there are so many kids whos parents "diagnose" them and then call it special needs. Even teachers are now saying most kids have adhd (ds's teacher even said this to me because ds goes to the bathroom twice a day at school--I kid you not, he thinks ds has adhd)
Yes I agree that it seems like everyone has ADHD these days when they haven't actually been diagnosed with it.
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RosieMommy 10:53 AM 05-10-2013
Originally Posted by countrymom:
I don't think she is meaning kids who are really diagnosed. Because I have to totally agree with her. I have never ever seen a rise in such silliness. Here in canada you can apply for money to help you out. I can see kids who get properly diagnosed, but there are so many kids whos parents "diagnose" them and then call it special needs. Even teachers are now saying most kids have adhd (ds's teacher even said this to me because ds goes to the bathroom twice a day at school--I kid you not, he thinks ds has adhd)
Can you get financial assistance without a diagnosis?
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Cradle2crayons 11:00 AM 05-10-2013
Originally Posted by RosieMommy:
Yes I agree that it seems like everyone has ADHD these days when they haven't actually been diagnosed with it.
As a mom of one of those truly diagnosed, I completely agree. I know several parents who I have been around their kids since they were babies, and around the age of six and seven they suddenly decide their kids have it, search out a doc who will medicate without a real diagnosis, because they think their kids need meds. Then what happens is the kid gets really out of control because they are tripping on speed because they are NOT really ADHD etc etc... When in fact their kid has a severe form of "I have no consequences at all"
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RosieMommy 11:17 AM 05-10-2013
Originally Posted by Crystal:
As provider, I wouldn't expect you to pay, and your child should not have been placed alone in a room for even one minute.

That being said, as a parent, I have to disagree with your "approach" to "discipline".

Your child KNOWS that she has control because she never expereinces any "negative" consequesnces for her behavior. She throws screaming fits and DEMANDS to have her way because you "know her currency" but it leaves the provider very little to work with. I could be wrong, but It also seems as though you are creating a "special need" for her so that her behavior will be acceptable in group care. I have actually had a couple of parents do that in the past here at my program. Their children were FINE here, with me. BUT, at home, not so much. SO, they went to every single place they could find until they got a diagnosis that got them the free, special needs care that they wanted for their children. Their children were perfectly capable of being in group care with typically developing children, the parents simply could not figure out why they didn't behave for THEM, so they gave it a name.

Please, do your child a favor and give her REAL consequences for her behavior. Simply removing a toy that she isn't using correctly while allowing her to continue playing with others lets her know that she is the one in control. Sure, this is effective some time....but if that is ALL you do ALL the time, well, she knows It is truly a real disservice to your child....she needs more firm, clear boundaries.

BTW....I don't say these things lightly. I don't use time out, but I certainly WILL NOT allow a child to tantrum and be out of control on my watch. Your child needs a firm, loving provider who COMMANDS RESPECT, while giving respect back for appropriate behavior.
But it sounded like the child was behaving better for her parents and NOT in the group setting. Did I read that wrong?
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countrymom 11:17 AM 05-10-2013
Originally Posted by Cradle2crayons:
As a mom of one of those truly diagnosed, I completely agree. I know several parents who I have been around their kids since they were babies, and around the age of six and seven they suddenly decide their kids have it, search out a doc who will medicate without a real diagnosis, because they think their kids need meds. Then what happens is the kid gets really out of control because they are tripping on speed because they are NOT really ADHD etc etc... When in fact their kid has a severe form of "I have no consequences at all"
and here I thought it was just me who started to notice this too. How come when I grew up we didn't have kids like this. Maybe because we had discipline, I don't know. I'm glad others are starting to see this too.
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RosieMommy 11:22 AM 05-10-2013
Originally Posted by countrymom:
I'm going to be blunt. Your dd is ruling the roost. Time to wake up and stop blaming everyone.

Your dd isn't special needs, she needs discipline. Time outs don't work, ha, have you even tried them. Do you know how to do them right.

Your dd dumped toys on the floor and refused to clean up, she knew what she was doing. So a consequence needs to follow. What are you going to do when she goes to the store, hide all the stuff so she doesn't throw things on the floor. Lady wake up, your dd's situation is fixable.

also, I find it odd that your provider told you that she put your dd in a room and shut the door and then admit it???

also, I'm curious what kind of discipline do you use at home, I don't see anywhere in the posts what you acually use. You can't keep redirecting kids, its just doesn't work with everyone, and you said you were a teacher so you should know.

also, what kind of preschool do we have in canada?????? Do you mean junior kindy. And Esp. one that deals with sn kids. Because we have specific centers, not preschools.
She had previously stated that time outs aren't effective with this child. Time outs are not effective with all kids. I was one of them -- I just told myself stories and entertained myself until I was able to go back to play or whatever. It didn't stop me from doing whatever caused me to put there. Really I think time outs were more for the caregivers and my mom than they were for me.

Anyway, does anyone actually have any suggestions as to what other discipline methods she could try besides redirection and what's already described by her? Everyone keeps saying discipline your child and have real consequences etc. What are some ways or some things you think she can do that might help with a strong willed child.
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RosieMommy 11:24 AM 05-10-2013
Originally Posted by countrymom:
and here I thought it was just me who started to notice this too. How come when I grew up we didn't have kids like this. Maybe because we had discipline, I don't know. I'm glad others are starting to see this too.
There were kids like this. Some of them were the really "bad" kids who just always stayed "bad" who if they had been diagnosed and resources available, could have gotten the help and treatment they needed.
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Cradle2crayons 11:29 AM 05-10-2013
Originally Posted by RosieMommy:
She had previously stated that time outs aren't effective with this child. Time outs are not effective with all kids. I was one of them -- I just told myself stories and entertained myself until I was able to go back to play or whatever. It didn't stop me from doing whatever caused me to put there. Really I think time outs were more for the caregivers and my mom than they were for me.

Anyway, does anyone actually have any suggestions as to what other discipline methods she could try besides redirection and what's already described by her? Everyone keeps saying discipline your child and have real consequences etc. What are some ways or some things you think she can do that might help with a strong willed child.
I think the pp was questioning whether the parent was actually using time out in the CORRECT way. And I'm curious to know that too. They aren't effective for all but most parents actually don't do them right to begin with. I've seen that quite a bit actually.

My daughter is extremely strong willed and a lot of what I use with her is removal of privileges. I have been known to remove everything from her bedroom except her bed and covers and put it into storage until she learned to keep her room clean.

When I kept discovering all of her clean clothes were in the dirty clothes and I got tired of washing them over and over, now she does her OWN laundry and I can assure you it's ONLY dirty clothes now lol.

We she wouldn't keep her stuff out of the living area I adapted an uh oh box and took her items and put them in toy jail In a box. If she wanted them out, she had to do a chore. Worked like a charm. Now my uh oh box is small and empty haha.

Sometimes it takes a little creativity for the kid to realize they need to make the RIGHT choices.
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countrymom 11:36 AM 05-10-2013
Originally Posted by RosieMommy:
She had previously stated that time outs aren't effective with this child. Time outs are not effective with all kids. I was one of them -- I just told myself stories and entertained myself until I was able to go back to play or whatever. It didn't stop me from doing whatever caused me to put there. Really I think time outs were more for the caregivers and my mom than they were for me.

Anyway, does anyone actually have any suggestions as to what other discipline methods she could try besides redirection and what's already described by her? Everyone keeps saying discipline your child and have real consequences etc. What are some ways or some things you think she can do that might help with a strong willed child.
I know time outs don't work with everyone, but I'm wondering if she is doing them right. Also, I noticed she never said what kind of discipline she told the provider to use. Redirection doesn't work with every kid either (happened today, but the time out worked--no more hitting ) If the op told us what she wanted the provider to do then we could understand it better.
The child dumped toys on the floor and refused to clean it up, did the mom want the provider to redirect her which I think is weird because the child knew not to touch the toy. Also, moms expectation of hiding the toys the child can't play with, is also rediculous. I think there is too much missing from this post.

Also, I think many of us, use mats or chairs when we redirect kids. I have kids who need to calm down but I don't call it time out even thou it is kwim. I think this parent was just giving in and the kid is just use to it. I have a dcg who doesn't get her way will throw herself on the floor and scream. At first I let her be, but then the other kids started complaining and redirecting her wasn't working because she would just go and scream and throw herself somewhere else. I now put her on my mat in the kitchen till she can calm down. I also let her know that we can't behave like this when i tell her know that it makes her friends sad, and we all know that we can never make our friends sad
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countrymom 11:45 AM 05-10-2013
I have a strong willed kid (ok she's a pita some days) I even went to a class about how to fix her. They told me that as she got older she would get better, she's 12 now lets just say she'll make a good lawyer. She will argue with you till you agree with her lol!
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RosieMommy 11:45 AM 05-10-2013
Originally Posted by countrymom:
I know time outs don't work with everyone, but I'm wondering if she is doing them right. Also, I noticed she never said what kind of discipline she told the provider to use. Redirection doesn't work with every kid either (happened today, but the time out worked--no more hitting ) If the op told us what she wanted the provider to do then we could understand it better.
The child dumped toys on the floor and refused to clean it up, did the mom want the provider to redirect her which I think is weird because the child knew not to touch the toy. Also, moms expectation of hiding the toys the child can't play with, is also rediculous. I think there is too much missing from this post.

Also, I think many of us, use mats or chairs when we redirect kids. I have kids who need to calm down but I don't call it time out even thou it is kwim. I think this parent was just giving in and the kid is just use to it. I have a dcg who doesn't get her way will throw herself on the floor and scream. At first I let her be, but then the other kids started complaining and redirecting her wasn't working because she would just go and scream and throw herself somewhere else. I now put her on my mat in the kitchen till she can calm down. I also let her know that we can't behave like this when i tell her know that it makes her friends sad, and we all know that we can never make our friends sad
I see what you're saying. She also mentioned the older kid had also issues and I was wondering what was going on there in terms of the behavior and if she was using the same methods.

But what about other methods? I have a young toddler and I'd like to know myself what works for you all. She's 14 months if that helps.

My mom was "old school" if you kwim so I'm not keen at all on repeating what SHE did (she attempted to change her ways at one point and the time outs didn't work with me but still).
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RosieMommy 11:48 AM 05-10-2013
Originally Posted by Cradle2crayons:
I think the pp was questioning whether the parent was actually using time out in the CORRECT way. And I'm curious to know that too. They aren't effective for all but most parents actually don't do them right to begin with. I've seen that quite a bit actually.

My daughter is extremely strong willed and a lot of what I use with her is removal of privileges. I have been known to remove everything from her bedroom except her bed and covers and put it into storage until she learned to keep her room clean.

When I kept discovering all of her clean clothes were in the dirty clothes and I got tired of washing them over and over, now she does her OWN laundry and I can assure you it's ONLY dirty clothes now lol.

We she wouldn't keep her stuff out of the living area I adapted an uh oh box and took her items and put them in toy jail In a box. If she wanted them out, she had to do a chore. Worked like a charm. Now my uh oh box is small and empty haha.

Sometimes it takes a little creativity for the kid to realize they need to make the RIGHT choices.
Ooh those are some good ideas re keeping room clean and toy jail. I am filing this away. I REALLY REALLY like toy jail.
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Blackcat31 11:53 AM 05-10-2013
Originally Posted by RosieMommy:
Anyway, does anyone actually have any suggestions as to what other discipline methods she could try besides redirection and what's already described by her? Everyone keeps saying discipline your child and have real consequences etc. What are some ways or some things you think she can do that might help with a strong willed child.
Discipline for a strong-willed child requires a little more of a firmer hand. Discipline must be tailored to the child.

It is important that discipline be consistently applied and that it does not break the child's spirit. Time-outs, scoldings, spankings - usually mean little or nothing.

You need to find out what does matter. Find out what the child values most.

If the child loves the outdoors, nature, and climbing trees, when discipline becomes necessary, withholding an outdoor activity is an appropriate consequence.

Knowing the child is critical to any effective discipline.

For compliant children we usually speak to the child in a calm even tone, set clear and concise boundaries, explain consequences.

We spend time teaching and training children as to what we expect.

We need to be consistent and firm and encourage and give praise when a child follows the rules.

For the strong-willed child we need to do ALL of those things IN ADDITION to some other techniques.

Continue trying until you find the leverage that works with that child. Sometimes a more rigid behavioral system may need to be applied.

You can try removing privileges until the child shows a willingness to comply with the rules.

It's important to remember that strong willed children ARE willfully defying you and much of what they do may be purely for attention.

Because of the strong need for consistency and routine, it is important to resist the temptation to make allowances for this child, just because they may be screaming or tantruming. In an even tone of voice, you must tell the child his/her behavior is NOT acceptable.

You need to firmly establish your control and don't give it to the child.

Often, these kids are really prone to power-struggles.

However, it takes two to have a power struggle

Research shows that parents who pay attention can avoid power struggles, even with strong-willed kids, by empathizing as they set limits, giving choices, and clearly offering respect.

Adopting a policy of looking for win/win solutions rather than just laying down the law keeps strong-willed children from becoming explosive and teaches them essential skills of negotiation and compromise.

Strong-willed kids feel their integrity is compromised if they're forced to submit to a parent's will. And, really, you don't WANT to raise an obedient child.

Morality is doing what's right, no matter what you're told.

Obedience is doing what you're told, no matter what's right.

(http://www.ahaparenting.com/parentin...g-Willed-Child)
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Cradle2crayons 11:54 AM 05-10-2013
Lol my favorite part is the signing the box


It has a huge frownie face and the it says

"UH OH!!!"
YOU left it out
MOM picked it up
She's got your stuff
You're out of LUCK
To get it back
Must do a CHORE
Again it is yours
Just like before

The to to side I attached a little pocket containing laminated chores chores are age appropriate
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Blackcat31 11:57 AM 05-10-2013
Originally Posted by Cradle2crayons:
Lol my favorite part is the signing the box


It has a huge frownie face and the it says

"UH OH!!!"
YOU left it out
MOM picked it up
She's got your stuff
You're out of LUCK
To get it back
Must do a CHORE
Again it is yours
Just like before

The to to side I attached a little pocket containing laminated chores chores are age appropriate
Chore boxes are ALL the rage on Pinterest lately


http://boomergrandparents.com/the-ch...-for-families/
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Cradle2crayons 12:32 PM 05-10-2013
Yesssssss and it works!!!!!! Lol. It works soooooo goooooooood!!! At first I had to get a bigger box... But before long it got demoted to a little dollar tree basket that's smaller than the sign!!! Lately the uh oh box has been oh no lonely!!!!
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Lyss 12:51 PM 05-10-2013
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
Chore boxes are ALL the rage on Pinterest lately


http://boomergrandparents.com/the-ch...-for-families/
OT I know but I had to comment! I have a friend who does this with her teenage daughter and her laundry. She was struggling with her just leaving her laundry all over, both clean and dirty. She started doing this and one day her daughter had to go to school in her baseball uniform shirt and a pair of shorts her grandma got her that she hated (think 60s flower print couch ) because she lost everything else! She always picks up now!
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Cradle2crayons 12:57 PM 05-10-2013
Lol yes in the beginning my daughter would procrastinate with her laundry so then I started throwing my laundry in her basket. Now as soon as its her laundry day, it's done.

I could out my daughter in a garbage bag for clothes and she could care less lol... But for those that do care, that would work!!
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Angelsj 01:31 PM 05-10-2013
Originally Posted by RosieMommy:
Yes I agree that it seems like everyone has ADHD these days when they haven't actually been diagnosed with it.
Any diagnosis can be abused, but I was referring to kids with autism and asperger's as "spectrum" kids. Yes, I know that ADHD is often included on the spectrum, but to me these are a different issue, with differing chemistry.
ADD and ADHD are very much overused, personally, I believe, by teachers who don't know how to deal with boys and their energy levels (and some girls as well.)
Children today are not given any where near the level of physical work or outdoor playtime that was there even just two generations ago. Once they are in school they are expected to spend a LOT of time indoors, either being "taught" (so sit still) or doing homework (a big pet peeve of mine.)
Kids need to get outside, run around, be kids...and if they don't, they are restless (AKA today....ADHD)
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Angelsj 01:33 PM 05-10-2013
Originally Posted by RosieMommy:
Can you get financial assistance without a diagnosis?
I don't know about Canada, but here in the States, no way. The problem is, however, that you can get a doctor to give you a diagnosis of ADHD and get meds in a single visit. So the diagnosis is a dime a dozen here.
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Unregistered 05:06 PM 05-11-2013
Something to consider...at least here in the States. Children who are diagnosed with a disability, whether it is ASD or Emotional Behavioral Disorder (which often, *but not always* means really God-awful, should have lost the kids years ago, parents) get Social Security benefits.

I've had students tell me that their parents tell them to act worse in school in order to get more money. Hence, the money wagon that was mentioned earlier.
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Cradle2crayons 05:11 PM 05-11-2013
Originally Posted by Unregistered:
Something to consider...at least here in the States. Children who are diagnosed with a disability, whether it is ASD or Emotional Behavioral Disorder (which often, *but not always* means really God-awful, should have lost the kids years ago, parents) get Social Security benefits.

I've had students tell me that their parents tell them to act worse in school in order to get more money. Hence, the money wagon that was mentioned earlier.
We don't get any benefits. Matter of fact our health insurance won't even pay for one of her meds or her psychiatrist. So, that's not true for everyone. We also don't have an Iep or any other "special " programs


AND if they do get ssi, it's a set payment every month regardless on how "bad" the kid acts.
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Angelsj 06:53 PM 05-11-2013
Originally Posted by Cradle2crayons:
We don't get any benefits. Matter of fact our health insurance won't even pay for one of her meds or her psychiatrist. So, that's not true for everyone. We also don't have an Iep or any other "special " programs


AND if they do get ssi, it's a set payment every month regardless on how "bad" the kid acts.
Yeah, we have never gotten any special benefits either. And we have 4 with Asperger's (diagnosed), one originally given an Autism diagnosis which changed, and one that has co-morbid ADD so bad that they could not finish the ADD testing. Nearly everything has been out of pocket.
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nannyde 07:13 PM 05-11-2013
Originally Posted by Angelsj:
So I can assume none of your own children are "on the spectrum." This is one of the most ignorant statements I have seen you make.
No matter what is going on there will be some parents who use an excuse to not make their child behave, but unless you have parented a child who is autistic or has asperger's syndrome, you really can't understand what it means.

People with your attitude have been making my and my children's lives miserable for 23 years.
Well if you got a diagnosis of “on the spectrum" 23 years ago you had about a one in 2000 odds. (I don't think it was even a possible diagnosis in 1990 but I digress) In 2013 the odds are about 1 in 80 with some areas of the US being even higher.

It's terribly misdiagnosed and is costing school districts across America loads of money. It's becoming a get out of jail card for parents who are searching for an answer that could quite well really be poor inept parenting.

I don't know your family so I'm not directing this to your family. Have you researched the misdiagnosis of in the spectrum? Just google that phrase and you will get tons of articles. It's scarry.
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Crazy In Mo 08:13 PM 05-11-2013
Originally Posted by Crystal:
As provider, I wouldn't expect you to pay, and your child should not have been placed alone in a room for even one minute.

That being said, as a parent, I have to disagree with your "approach" to "discipline".

Your child KNOWS that she has control because she never expereinces any "negative" consequesnces for her behavior. She throws screaming fits and DEMANDS to have here way because you "know her currency" but it leaves the provider very little to work with. I could be wrong, but It also seems as though you are creating a "special need" for her so that her behavior will be acceptable in group care. I have actually had a couple of parents do that in the past here at my program. Their children were FINE here, with me. BUT, at home, not so much. SO, they went to every single place they could find until they got a diagnosis that got them the free, special needs care that they wanted for their children. Their children were perfectly capable of being in group care with typically developing children, the parents simply could not figure out why they didn't behave for THEM, so they gave it a name.

Please, do your child a favor and give her REAL consequences for her behavior. Simply removing a toy that she isn't using correctly while allowing her to continue playing with others lets her know that she is the one in control. Sure, this is effective some time....but if that is ALL you do ALL the time, well, she knows It is truly a real disservice to your child....she needs more firm, clear boundaries.

BTW....I don't say these things lightly. I don't use time out, but I certainly WILL NOT allow a child to tantrum and be out of control on my watch. Your child needs a firm, loving provider who COMMANDS RESPECT, while giving respect back for appropriate behavior.

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Cradle2crayons 10:04 PM 05-11-2013
Originally Posted by Angelsj:
Yeah, we have never gotten any special benefits either. And we have 4 with Asperger's (diagnosed), one originally given an Autism diagnosis which changed, and one that has co-morbid ADD so bad that they could not finish the ADD testing. Nearly everything has been out of pocket.
I so empathize.... My daughter had the same problem. The add tester sent her to the psych who medicated her with a specific medication just so she could actually get through testing. That particular med was continued and she's still on it. It's not a stimulant at all. It's an older med made for high blood pressure that simply slows down these ADHD kids. She takes that medication as well as a mood stabilizer that works very well for moods and sleep, as well as the long term and short term stimulants. The stimulants she only takes in the days she goes to school. The other two she takes year round.
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nannyde 05:23 AM 05-12-2013
Originally Posted by nannyde:
Well if you got a diagnosis of “on the spectrum" 23 years ago you had about a one in 2000 odds. (I don't think it was even a possible diagnosis in 1990 but I digress) In 2013 the odds are about 1 in 80 with some areas of the US being even higher.

It's terribly misdiagnosed and is costing school districts across America loads of money. It's becoming a get out of jail card for parents who are searching for an answer that could quite well really be poor inept parenting.

I don't know your family so I'm not directing this to your family. Have you researched the misdiagnosis of in the spectrum? Just google that phrase and you will get tons of articles. It's scarry.
http://nymag.com/news/features/autism-spectrum-2012-11/

Before 1980, one in 2,000 children was thought to be autistic. By 2007, the Centers for Disease Control were reporting that one in 152 American children had an autism-spectrum disorder. Two years later, the CDC updated the ratio to one in 110. This past March, the CDC revised the number upward again, to one in 88 (one in 54, if you just count boys, who are five times as likely to have one as girls). A South Korean study from last year put the number even higher, at one in 38. And in New Jersey, according to the latest numbers, an improbable one in 29 boys is on the spectrum.

Siegel, who has been running her clinic since the eighties, says she’s seeing “more false-positive assessments than ever before.” Of the roughly ten new assessments she’s asked to do every week—kids showing up with spectrum diagnoses from another therapist—six of them might not have an autism-spectrum disorder. This isn’t to say that they may not have psychological issues, only that those are either other disorders or they don’t rise to an impairing level. “A lot of kids are just delayed in development, slow to talk, or anxious, or hyperactive, and a lot of kids are just terribly parented.”

Poor parents want diagnoses serious enough to merit state-funded school services, and rich parents want the least stigmatizing diagnoses. (“When you say a kid is mentally retarded,” Siegel says, “parents try to talk you out of it.”) And some parents are simply flummoxed by their own kids’ irrational mood swings, refusal of food, or inability to express emotion. When these parents come to Siegel, they get a surprise: She diagnoses their children as suffering from childhood. “We see a lot of diagnosis-of-childhood kids, whose parents have never set limits, plus kids who are temperamentally difficult to raise.”

And their world is about to get shaken up. Next May, the fifth edition of the DSM is to be published, and the APA has proposed to eliminate the Asperger’s diagnosis, folding it, as well as PDD-NOS, into the broader new all-purpose bucket of autism spectrum disorder. The thinking is that Asperger’s isn’t scientifically distinguishable from autism, and that a single diagnosis may help to combat the epidemic that is more diagnostic than real. But the debate has been fractious. Fred Volkmar, who’d headed the committee for DSM-IV, quit the DSM-5 committee, and has been vocal about the likelihood that the redrawn map of who’s on the spectrum will cause a lot of people who currently have diagnoses to lose them. A report previewed in January suggested that as few as 45 percent of people who currently have Asperger’s or PDD-NOS diagnoses will retain them, though a study in The American Journal of Psychiatry, published earlier this month, put the number closer to 90 percent.
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Kaddidle Care 06:18 AM 05-12-2013
Originally Posted by nannyde:
http://nymag.com/news/features/autism-spectrum-2012-11/

Before 1980, one in 2,000 children was thought to be autistic. By 2007, the Centers for Disease Control were reporting that one in 152 American children had an autism-spectrum disorder. Two years later, the CDC updated the ratio to one in 110. This past March, the CDC revised the number upward again, to one in 88 (one in 54, if you just count boys, who are five times as likely to have one as girls). A South Korean study from last year put the number even higher, at one in 38. And in New Jersey, according to the latest numbers, an improbable one in 29 boys is on the spectrum.
As I read this my audible "Wows" became louder and louder. This IS really scary. I'm in NJ.
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Angelsj 07:15 AM 05-12-2013
Originally Posted by nannyde:
Well if you got a diagnosis of “on the spectrum" 23 years ago you had about a one in 2000 odds. (I don't think it was even a possible diagnosis in 1990 but I digress) In 2013 the odds are about 1 in 80 with some areas of the US being even higher.

It's terribly misdiagnosed and is costing school districts across America loads of money. It's becoming a get out of jail card for parents who are searching for an answer that could quite well really be poor inept parenting.

I don't know your family so I'm not directing this to your family. Have you researched the misdiagnosis of in the spectrum? Just google that phrase and you will get tons of articles. It's scarry.
I was actually pretty clear that my oldest "spectrum" (read Asperger's) child was diagnosed with autism. Asperger's wasn't part of the widely known medical realm, and he did rather fit with many of the autism concepts, just not all of them. There was also only a single type of autism recognized at that point.

I don't need to google it; I have lived in the research, development and medical literature of ASD for many, many years. I have used a variety of programs, diets, discipline styles and medications over the years. I am fully aware that people misuse the diagnosis. This has been a more recent (read 2007--2010) upswing, but before that we were seeing a rise in these kids.

Personally, I believe we are creating some very serious issues with our rise in GMO foods, pesticide laden fruits and veggies, processed foods, chemicals to clean with, and a huge jump in the number of vaccines we expect our kids tiny bodies to handle. Our infants are exposed to a mess of junk before they are even born, and we inundate them with more and more from there.

It isn't just a rise in autism or "spectrum" disorders but also in AD(H)D, asthma, childhood cancers, obesity in kids, etc, etc. Yes, some people are just on the bandwagon, and really need to parent better, but there are still a significant number of kids with Autism and Aspergers, and even AD(H)D that really don't need the attitude you put forth.

Yes, I will try anything I can to "control my kid" but a little understanding into why he does what he does would serve the public well. He may be having that meltdown because your perfume just overwhelmed his senses. Not exactly something I could control, so maybe you could be less judgmental and more understanding.

And putting him in "time out" for acting that was is not only incredibly unfair, but it will not work. He just doesn't understand it. He might even sit there, but he will never understand why he is sitting there. He will react the same way next time, until he is old enough to understand what set him off, hopefully be able to verbalize it and learn to move away or change the stimuli. It is a huge learning process that must be done in a way they understand.

For the record, that "autistic turned asperger's" child of the 1990's is still a little quirky, and still has some autistic behaviors (imagine your quirkiest history professors) but he lives on his own, has a girlfriend (who is also a bit quirky), is in his fourth year of college, and plans to teach physics to high school kids, because he is an amazing teacher, with a depth of patience, and loves kids. He also has a measured IQ of 160.

I am still in the throes of one more kiddo (a 13 yo with Aspergers, and ADD) and he is still a tough cookie, but we will get there. I spend a good part of my day counseling parents of kids with spectrum diagnoses. Yes, i see some interesting kids who are not really ASD, but most of the ones who take the time to come to me have kids who truly are, and the last thing they need in their lives are people with judgmental attitudes like you displayed staring at them in the grocery store with "that look."
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Angelsj 07:24 AM 05-12-2013
As to "terribly parented", I think we are seeing a huge rise in kids who just are NOT parented. They feed them and bathe them and buy them things, but they do not parent. We have somehow developed a generation who either does not know or does not care how to parent a child, or what that even means.

I also suspect your doctor might be a tad biased in the other direction. Typically, you will find the truth somewhere in the middle of all those numbers.
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Unregistered 03:35 PM 05-13-2013
Originally Posted by Cradle2crayons:
We don't get any benefits. Matter of fact our health insurance won't even pay for one of her meds or her psychiatrist. So, that's not true for everyone. We also don't have an Iep or any other "special " programs


AND if they do get ssi, it's a set payment every month regardless on how "bad" the kid acts.
Social security is applied for through the federal government, not your health insurance. There are guidelines that need to be followed that need to be followed, here is the link.

http://www.ssa.gov/disability/profes...-Childhood.htm

Also, payment is based on the levels (percentages) of disability. As behaviors rise, the children receives more services, which equals more money.

Lastly, has your child been evaluated through the school? You have legal rights for special education services if your child qualifies. Any public school must conduct an evaluation if a parent requests one.

Here is the link if you would like more information on your rights, in terms of Special Education.

Your friendly, neighborhood Special Education Teacher
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Cradle2crayons 06:21 PM 05-13-2013
Originally Posted by Unregistered:
Social security is applied for through the federal government, not your health insurance. There are guidelines that need to be followed that need to be followed, here is the link.

http://www.ssa.gov/disability/profes...-Childhood.htm

Also, payment is based on the levels (percentages) of disability. As behaviors rise, the children receives more services, which equals more money.

Lastly, has your child been evaluated through the school? You have legal rights for special education services if your child qualifies. Any public school must conduct an evaluation if a parent requests one.

Here is the link if you would like more information on your rights, in terms of Special Education.

Your friendly, neighborhood Special Education Teacher
Ssi payments here are 605 I believe it is... And Canassure you my tube fed heart baby would get more than ADHD or etc. and it doesn't matter how sick she is, it's the same payment every month regardless. As far as ssi for ADHD,the few I know that have it all get e same amount, regardless of severity.

My child doesn't NEED special education services and I refuse for a school to get more money simply because my child has a diagnosis. I don't want an Iep on her because she don't need one.

And I'm well aware of all my resources. I just choose my child doesn't use them if she doesn't need them.
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Qpmomma 06:56 PM 05-14-2013
Just a thought:

"Positive punishment" is adding something to the environent the child doesn't like to get them to comply.

"Negative punishment" is taking something away the child values to get them to comply.

Proceed.
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m.kids1301 04:16 AM 05-15-2013
We are not allowed to shut a child in a room for discipline either so I really don't think this would hold up even if she were to take it to court. I had one girl that repeatedly pushed buttons even at 5 years old. I'd have her stand in a corner and I told her she'd stay there for 5 minutes (I set the timer). If she moved at all I reset it. She did get the idea somewhat and would hold still but I had to stay right there to make sure she did. It was more of a "who's in charge" moment. It gets very hard to have to be so focused on one child's behavior when you also have to be caring for several others. You may want to find a very small group; any provider would need a bit more time to be able to work with a very strong-willed kid.
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renodeb 08:07 AM 05-15-2013
That is strange, the provider should not have put her in that room and shut the door. That would be considered confinment. IMO its her fault that the matress smells. That was poor judgment on her part. I wouldnt pay for the mattress. Not normal at all to me.
Deb
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MaryM 11:58 AM 05-22-2013
Originally Posted by Unregistered:
1st: My 3yo (newly 3) has been increasing her defiance recently. She is currently in a stage where if she says 'No' to something, she becomes an immovable object. We are working at finding her currency, but it's really hard right now. We're struggling with her and I sympathize with the DCP about that. I really do. Right now we're getting the best results with clearly stating our expectation and then consequence of not listening and then following through every time. DD is very calculating and it's really hard when she seems to weigh her options and then chose the consequence. We are basically following Setting Limits with your Strong Willed Child.

2nd: I do not agree with time-outs. I am trained as a teacher and believe strongly that reinforcement works far better than punishment. All the research I have read confirms this and so do the guidelines at most daycares. It is absolutely appropriate, for example, to have a child who is making bad choices stick close to the provider rather than get to go play. But I don't think that making a child sit somewhere as a punishment is appropriate or effective.

3rd: That's actually not my problem. If a time-out had worked (on her stairs) I probably wouldn't object too much. I don't like it, but I realize that she needed to try something. It was the closing my kid in a room unsupervised that bothers me.

4: I know my kid has issues. She has been approved for a SN preschool program in the fall. She doesn't have delays (in fact she's a really smart little girl) but she has challenging behaviors that are getting harder and harder to deal with. But, the basic facts are that she does not hit, bite or hurt other children or the DCP. She simply becomes absurdly defiant at times and we don't have any way to diffuse the situation right now.

She's not going back. The DCP is done with her. I think it's too much. She recently had another 2 kids start and she doesn't have the ability/resources/energy right now to deal with my DD. I get that and I will find someone else until the end of the school year. I don't have any interest in causing her trouble. She reached the end of her rope with my kid and made a bad choice. I live with this kid and I get it. I would never have thought that a 3yo could be so difficult.

My thing is that we have paid for next week since we pre-pay 2 weeks at a time (I'm not asking for a refund) and now she wants us to also buy a new mattress.
Have you had your daughter evaluated for oppositional defiance disorder?
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Blackcat31 12:07 PM 05-22-2013
Originally Posted by MaryM:
Have you had your daughter evaluated for oppositional defiance disorder?
I know this is a long thread but OP already answered this question in post #43.

Her child will be evaluated in September. Hopefully she will have some answers then.
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MaryM 12:15 PM 05-22-2013
Originally Posted by Crystal:
As provider, I wouldn't expect you to pay, and your child should not have been placed alone in a room for even one minute.

That being said, as a parent, I have to disagree with your "approach" to "discipline".

Your child KNOWS that she has control because she never expereinces any "negative" consequesnces for her behavior. She throws screaming fits and DEMANDS to have her way because you "know her currency" but it leaves the provider very little to work with. I could be wrong, but It also seems as though you are creating a "special need" for her so that her behavior will be acceptable in group care. I have actually had a couple of parents do that in the past here at my program. Their children were FINE here, with me. BUT, at home, not so much. SO, they went to every single place they could find until they got a diagnosis that got them the free, special needs care that they wanted for their children. Their children were perfectly capable of being in group care with typically developing children, the parents simply could not figure out why they didn't behave for THEM, so they gave it a name.

Please, do your child a favor and give her REAL consequences for her behavior. Simply removing a toy that she isn't using correctly while allowing her to continue playing with others lets her know that she is the one in control. Sure, this is effective some time....but if that is ALL you do ALL the time, well, she knows It is truly a real disservice to your child....she needs more firm, clear boundaries.



BTW....I don't say these things lightly. I don't use time out, but I certainly WILL NOT allow a child to tantrum and be out of control on my watch. Your child needs a firm, loving provider who COMMANDS RESPECT, while giving respect back for appropriate behavior.
The parent needs to start administering spankings, not beatings, spankings....there is a difference.
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Crystal 12:22 PM 05-22-2013
Originally Posted by MaryM:
The parent needs to start administering spankings, not beatings, spankings....there is a difference.
That is not what I was saying, at all.
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Tags:damages, destructive, destructive behavior, enforcing policies - consistency
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