Default Style Register
Daycare.com Forum
Daycare Center and Family Home Forum>Your Thoughts Please?
Preschool/daycare teacher 05:29 PM 04-11-2012
We just had a 4 yr old start last week. His grandparents have custody of him (they are still pretty young. later 40's I would guess). His very first day was awful. He is very very very defiant. He cannot take ANY direction. Something as simple as asking him to wash his hands for lunch, he will refuse just because he was asked to. If we give him a choice (you can do this or this), he refuses to choose one, so we let him know we can shoose, or he can choose. He still won't choose, so we choose for him, and take his hand to lead him to wherever he needs to be/do whatever he needs to do. When we take his hand, he immediately gets really mad, starts screaming and crying, will slap at us, try to scratch, pinch, etc.

He refuses to sit in time out when he needs it (which was much needed even on his very first day!). He knocks the chair over and runs off. If we pick him up to place him on the chair, he stiffens up so we can't sit him in it. He fights it tooth and nail. BUT during free play or outdoor play, he is an awsome little boy. Plays well and plays well with the other children, runs to us for hugs, etc.

Extremely sweet. But the moment he is asked to do anything at all besides free play, he immediately loses it. When he comes in around 7:30 am, he takes a full nap, but first he has to avoid it as long as possible, running to the other room to play, running to the restroom becuse he has to potty, just out and out refusing to get on his cot. When we lead him to it, he likes to pick things up along the way and throw them, and then jump off the cot and run the second he gets to it, laughing the whole time. We keep thinking with a lot of consistancy and firmness we might be able to get somewhere with him. And since he has such good moments, when he's free playing, we keep thinking we can help. He is full time and we need this full time spot filled really really bad. BUT we do not want it to be at the expense of the other children. He has not done ANYthing against the other children (except calling them a baby when he's mad at us, knowing that that makes them madder than anything else). He's had perfect opportunities to do something to the other children, but he hasn't done a single thing to them, no matter how mad he is at them. It is just all directed at anyone in authority.

His Grandma tells us he never had any problems before a child started at his old daycare who behaved terribly. She said that child was terminated within just a few weeks, but that her grandson just took the other child's spot behavior wise. I cant figure out why this boy would continue with the terrible behavior even on his very first day with us. Usually children wait a couple weeks before they exhibit their behavior, even if they were doing it at their old daycare. We know his behavior could "rub off" on the other children in our care like the other child did him, but we keep thinking maybe we can curb the defiance before that happens. But each day we think he's making progress, the very next day his behavior is terrible again (when asked to do/stop anything). He knows exactly what he's doing everytime.

A very bright little boy. We know there's nothing like autsim or aspergers going on with him. He is a very normal (But very defiant) little boy. Really, that is his only problem. He cannot take authority. His Grandma says his teacher at his old daycare was easy going and not firm enough with him, so he wouldn't listen to her, but he would the other teachers. I doubt that, since he doesn't listen to either of us here, even on his first day, and without even knowing us first.

Your thoughts on all this? If we terminate, we know no one else will take him either, and it certainly won't be doing this little boy any favors to be jerked from daycare to daycare.
Reply
EntropyControlSpecialist 06:15 PM 04-11-2012
Sounds like when mine was little ... he has oppositional defiant disorder ....
Reply
Preschool/daycare teacher 07:54 PM 04-14-2012
What have you done that helped your child? I don't know what daycare providers can do legally to help oppositional defiant disorder children. I would like to know if this new child will work out before his 2 week trial period is over Even time-outs are frowned on by the state quality rating system, and is supposed to be used only to help an out of control child who could possibly hurt themselves or another child. What can you do to help a child who just REFUSES the most simple direction and wants to break all the rules (Example, I can remind another child that they need to put their jacket back on; so the child we're having trouble with immediately takes his jacket off, just because he heard that jackets are supposed to be worn..., or we remind another child to use the ladder instead of climbing the slide, so this child immediately starts climbing the slide because he found out it's not allowed).
This child can be excited about going outside, but the minute you start having everyone put their shoes and jackets on, he decides he does not want to go out. It's like if he can do what he wants, he decides he doesn't want whatever it was. But if he cannot do whatever he wants, he has a fit and refuses to do anything. He fights going outside, then he fights going inside. So whether he gets what he wants or he doesn't, he gets upset and has to fight it. But some days are really good and we think we're getting somewhere, and then he has a terrible day right after it (or has a terrible morning, but a great afternoon and vice-versa).
Reply
EntropyControlSpecialist 08:11 PM 04-14-2012
Originally Posted by Preschool/daycare teacher:
What have you done that helped your child? I don't know what daycare providers can do legally to help oppositional defiant disorder children. I would like to know if this new child will work out before his 2 week trial period is over Even time-outs are frowned on by the state quality rating system, and is supposed to be used only to help an out of control child who could possibly hurt themselves or another child. What can you do to help a child who just REFUSES the most simple direction and wants to break all the rules (Example, I can remind another child that they need to put their jacket back on; so the child we're having trouble with immediately takes his jacket off, just because he heard that jackets are supposed to be worn..., or we remind another child to use the ladder instead of climbing the slide, so this child immediately starts climbing the slide because he found out it's not allowed).
This child can be excited about going outside, but the minute you start having everyone put their shoes and jackets on, he decides he does not want to go out. It's like if he can do what he wants, he decides he doesn't want whatever it was. But if he cannot do whatever he wants, he has a fit and refuses to do anything. He fights going outside, then he fights going inside. So whether he gets what he wants or he doesn't, he gets upset and has to fight it. But some days are really good and we think we're getting somewhere, and then he has a terrible day right after it (or has a terrible morning, but a great afternoon and vice-versa).
I had to word things that I needed/wanted him to do in a way that made it seem like he choose to do it on his own/"beating me."

Ex: I want him to put his shoes on so we can go to the park. Most children recognize that by putting their shoes on, they get to do something they enjoy. He saw it as me forcing him to do something.
If I said, "If you put your shoes on, we'll go to the park!" nothing positive would occur,.
If I said, "I bet I can put my shoes on faster than you!" it became a competition. It wasn't a control situation. It was a game.

When DS was in Preschool, he threw a chair. All over control. Having stern talkings to, punishment, etc. never did anything. I highly suggest googling Oppositional Defiant Disorder and seeking out various techniques to try on him.
Reply
itlw8 01:32 PM 04-15-2012
question did you really mean to say he has to lay down for an AM nap at 7:30

If so you might want to drop that unless he has been up since 4 am for some reason,

I would suggest the grandparents have him evaluated.. problem is we are close to the end of the school year so they need to move extreemly fast in requesting it.

The sooner services are started if they are needed the better he will do when he gets to school
Reply
Blackcat31 02:45 PM 04-15-2012
Originally Posted by itlw8:
I would suggest the grandparents have him evaluated.. problem is we are close to the end of the school year so they need to move extreemly fast in requesting it.

The sooner services are started if they are needed the better he will do when he gets to school
Special services in my community runs all year and has nothing to do with the school year unless the child is already attending school and they need to coordinate services with the school day.

Evaluation services for a four year old here can happen at any time so I think it would be a good hting to also suggest to the grandparents that he be evaluated as soon as possible as itlw8 said, the early the intervention the better.

His grandparents may also state that he has no issues at home but I would stress with them that you are the closest thing to a school setting he has going on right now so just because they may not see these behaviors, the could/can still be happening elsewhere.
Reply
SimpleMom 03:15 PM 04-15-2012
Try the techniques in Transforming the difficult child by howard glasser. AMAZING book. Really helps kids who would optherwise be lost and helps them for a lifetime. I know a lot of people who have tried the ideas and were skeptical only to be pleasantly surprised!
Reply
Countrygal 05:02 PM 04-15-2012
I, too, am a gp raising my gs.

I would not jump to conclusions about diagnosing this child. In these situations there are a dozen things which could and probably did/do affect this little boy, and many manifest themselves around 4 - 5 yo.

Included in these are: fetal alcohol syndrome, PTSD, RAD, ADHD, ODD and more. They may even have aftermaths of drugs taken during pregnancy. There is so much that goes on with these poor little people that usually even the doctors have real issues trying to diagnose.

That leaves "what do you do?" Pretty much, if it were me and I were in your shoes, I would treat him like everyone else. I would calmly explain that you have rules and they must be obeyed. Period. Consistency is essential. And show them MULTITUDES of love. These kids need 10X the dose of love of normal kids for several reasons. They were taken away from their birth mother and father due to some circumstance(including death). All the child knows is that they were not "wanted". A misconception, but one seen through the child's eyes.

Another reason is that they sometimes feel that they are unlovable because their parents "didn't want them". This even happens in cases where the parents were killed in an accident. They will act out that unlovable personality. It is up to the adults to practice unconditional love.

Sometimes they get more hyper as they get older and don't realize how it affects everyone else (this is the case with my gs).

Honestly, of all of the children I know being raised by grandparents, they all have issues that came with them from birth and even before. It's one reason they need to be in a stable environment.

IMO - I would treat him like everyone else, taking special care not to lose my temper with him (these kids thrive on pushing your buttons) and show him as much love as you can. Also, YOU initiate the hugs and touching. This helps him to know that he is lovable. You want to hug him!

It is also my opinion that it may be a long road. This could be just a "stage" or even parrotted behavior, but I have never known a child being raised by a relative that did not have some issues beyond the "normal" child. But then, I only live within my small community of resources/people!
Reply
MizzCheryl 05:51 PM 04-15-2012
I agree with countrygal. Children raised by grandparents manytimes have serious issues to deal with. GOD Bless the grandmas and Papas that raise them!
You are a special bunch. I see the other ladies points too. The kiddies that I have cared for that are being raised by GPs really have issues. Drugs, alcohol abuse during pregnancy, emotional issues, it is a tough thing.
Reply
itlw8 07:37 PM 04-15-2012
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
Special services in my community runs all year and has nothing to do with the school year unless the child is already attending school and they need to coordinate services with the school day.

Evaluation services for a four year old here can happen at any time so I think it would be a good hting to also suggest to the grandparents that he be evaluated as soon as possible as itlw8 said, the early the intervention the better.

His grandparents may also state that he has no issues at home but I would stress with them that you are the closest thing to a school setting he has going on right now so just because they may not see these behaviors, the could/can still be happening elsewhere.
That is nice. because they are mandated to be provided by the public schools from 3 up , here it means IEPs need to be wrapped up by the end of school in May, While there is summer school in June I do not think the IEP team works then. not positve on that.

I agree WE should not ever diagnose but leave it to the experts. Even someone else observing him in your program can point out if an evaluation is needed or give you ideas to help.
Reply
Preschool/daycare teacher 03:03 PM 04-17-2012
Originally Posted by itlw8:
question did you really mean to say he has to lay down for an AM nap at 7:30

If so you might want to drop that unless he has been up since 4 am for some reason,

I would suggest the grandparents have him evaluated.. problem is we are close to the end of the school year so they need to move extreemly fast in requesting it.

The sooner services are started if they are needed the better he will do when he gets to school
Lol, what I meant was, when he comes in at 7:30 am he will take a full afternoon nap later on It did sound like we were havin him take at nap at 7:30 didn't it?
Reply
Preschool/daycare teacher 03:32 PM 04-17-2012
I don't think he has anything going on besides plain and simple defiance. It could be oppositional difiance disorder, but I haven't been able to look into it too much yet. He is VERY smart and does know exactly which buttons to push. He is also really smart academically. I don't think we're going to be able to keep this up, though. The other children are beginning to change, and not in a good way! Their listening skills have flown away, their manners are gone, they spend more time fighting with each other than playing, basically just ignoring all the rules they had been doing so well following. But the new 4 yr old.... I'm wearing out trying to get anywhere with him. He comes full time, so plenty of time for lots and lots of consistencey. But no matter how consistent we are, how we phrase things so he understands it is the same rule every time, and he will have to follow it even if he fights it for awhile... nothing seems to be helping him make enough progress. One instance was he didn't get his way again today, so punched me in stomach (not hard because he wasn't close enough to give it a good one, but still!). So had him sit down right where he was for a time out. He fefused and would run off everytime I let go or turned my back. He finally realized I wasn't giving up, so he started spitting in my face . I turned him around in his chair so he wasn't face to face, but he kept turning his head around and spitting the best he could at my face. If I walked away, he would immediately jump up and run off. He had spit everywhere. Floor, wall, chair, me... I'm not sure his really really sweet moments are going to be enough to make up for all his negative behavior. He does seem to listen a little better, but we can't continue with this spitting, attempting to bite, slapping, punching, kicking, screaming, scratching, pinching... each day he tries a new strategy that is worse than the day before, when he gets in a defiant mood and can't have his way. And the other children talk about him when he's not there, saying they don't like him (He annoys them to no end, just to get a reaction from them, and if they walk away, he chases after them).
We really need the full time rate he brings right now, we really want to help him, and we love having him around (during his good moments), but I'm not sure we can keep this up because of how awful his "not good" moments are. Thoughts? What would you do in our shoes? I feel guilty even thinking of throwing in the towel and saying we give up trying, but..... (I need a hair pulling icon). Our peaceful daycare seems to be vanishing, and he's the only reason I can think of to cause the change.
Reply
Tags:odd, oppositional, oppositional defiant disorder
Reply Up