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Daycare Center and Family Home Forum>Apologizing
fctjc1979 06:42 AM 06-15-2010
I thought this was in the "how long can you keep a child in time out" thread but couldn't find it so I'll just start a new thread.
Somewhere the other day, someone mentioned that part of their discipline process for things like hitting was making the offender apologize to the victim.
I've never forced anyone to apologize. But I've been told I'm dead wrong on my reasoning, but here it is anyway.
The first reason I don't is that I think it's yet another violation of the victim. Most places that make the offender apologize also make the victim respond kindly to the offender once the apology is made. To my way of thinking, the victim should be able to choose to ignore the offender. Maybe they aren't ready to talk to the child that just wacked them with a plastic truck. If the apology is forced, the victim knows the child doesn't really feel sorry about what they did.
The second reason is that, for the offender, a forced apology is completely empty of meaning. And in some cases, it's just a way to get back to playing with the group. They feel nothing for the child they hurt, they just want to go back to playing with their friends or the toys.
I guess, to me, there should be no apology unless the child wants to apologize. Sometimes I might ask a child if they would like to apologize if our conversation leads me to believe they are sorry for what they did. I do this because they may just have not thought about it yet. They're kids and just got in trouble for something so their focus may just not have swung from themselves to the victim yet.
I know that, as caregivers, we are supposed to teach children how to be successful in society and part of that is teaching them the norms and values of society, but is forcing them to do it really teaching them? And why is it that those that have told me that I'm wrong have never been able to explain why I'm wrong? If I am wrong, which has happened
, I would really like to know the reason.
Somewhere the other day, someone mentioned that part of their discipline process for things like hitting was making the offender apologize to the victim.
I've never forced anyone to apologize. But I've been told I'm dead wrong on my reasoning, but here it is anyway.
The first reason I don't is that I think it's yet another violation of the victim. Most places that make the offender apologize also make the victim respond kindly to the offender once the apology is made. To my way of thinking, the victim should be able to choose to ignore the offender. Maybe they aren't ready to talk to the child that just wacked them with a plastic truck. If the apology is forced, the victim knows the child doesn't really feel sorry about what they did.
The second reason is that, for the offender, a forced apology is completely empty of meaning. And in some cases, it's just a way to get back to playing with the group. They feel nothing for the child they hurt, they just want to go back to playing with their friends or the toys.
I guess, to me, there should be no apology unless the child wants to apologize. Sometimes I might ask a child if they would like to apologize if our conversation leads me to believe they are sorry for what they did. I do this because they may just have not thought about it yet. They're kids and just got in trouble for something so their focus may just not have swung from themselves to the victim yet.
I know that, as caregivers, we are supposed to teach children how to be successful in society and part of that is teaching them the norms and values of society, but is forcing them to do it really teaching them? And why is it that those that have told me that I'm wrong have never been able to explain why I'm wrong? If I am wrong, which has happened
, I would really like to know the reason.
jen 07:21 AM 06-15-2010
I don't think your are necessarily wrong, I think it is one of those judgement things. Personally, I do make kids apologize...generally to the ENTIRE group when age approriate.
Say Susie hits Tommy. I would tell Susie that she has broken the rules of my home, she has hurt another person and all her friends have had to stop our activity to deal with her poor choices. I am very unhappy about that and so are her friends. She needs to apologize to me for breaking my rules, to her friends for interrupting our play time, and to Tommy for hurting him. She is then prohibited from returning to the group activity and may sit and look at books at the table until we have finished.
DISCLAIMER: I am not talking about toddlers, but children who are old enough to understand. If they can understand what they did is wrong they can understand the consequences. And, for those who want to say that it is wrong to "shame" a child by making them publicly apologize...they should be ashamed, they hit someone! Personally, I think that the whole, "let's not shame the child thing" is where we are going wrong as a society. No, we shouldn't shame a child for an accident, but it is OK to be ashamed if we hurt another person, intentionally or carelessly damage someones property, or take something that doesn't belong to us.
Say Susie hits Tommy. I would tell Susie that she has broken the rules of my home, she has hurt another person and all her friends have had to stop our activity to deal with her poor choices. I am very unhappy about that and so are her friends. She needs to apologize to me for breaking my rules, to her friends for interrupting our play time, and to Tommy for hurting him. She is then prohibited from returning to the group activity and may sit and look at books at the table until we have finished.
DISCLAIMER: I am not talking about toddlers, but children who are old enough to understand. If they can understand what they did is wrong they can understand the consequences. And, for those who want to say that it is wrong to "shame" a child by making them publicly apologize...they should be ashamed, they hit someone! Personally, I think that the whole, "let's not shame the child thing" is where we are going wrong as a society. No, we shouldn't shame a child for an accident, but it is OK to be ashamed if we hurt another person, intentionally or carelessly damage someones property, or take something that doesn't belong to us.
misol 07:34 AM 06-15-2010
Originally Posted by jen:
DISCLAIMER: I am not talking about toddlers, but children who are old enough to understand. If they can understand what they did is wrong they can understand the consequences. And, for those who want to say that it is wrong to "shame" a child by making them publicly apologize...they should be ashamed, they hit someone! Personally, I think that the whole, "let's not shame the child thing" is where we are going wrong as a society. No, we shouldn't shame a child for an accident, but it is OK to be ashamed if we hurt another person, intentionally or carelessly damage someones property, or take something that doesn't belong to us.
Ohhh Jen, this is so true!DISCLAIMER: I am not talking about toddlers, but children who are old enough to understand. If they can understand what they did is wrong they can understand the consequences. And, for those who want to say that it is wrong to "shame" a child by making them publicly apologize...they should be ashamed, they hit someone! Personally, I think that the whole, "let's not shame the child thing" is where we are going wrong as a society. No, we shouldn't shame a child for an accident, but it is OK to be ashamed if we hurt another person, intentionally or carelessly damage someones property, or take something that doesn't belong to us.
jen 07:39 AM 06-15-2010
Originally Posted by misol:
Ohhh Jen, this is so true!
Thanks! I was zipping up my flame suit! LOL! There are those who think my theory is "mean."Ohhh Jen, this is so true!
sahm2three 07:40 AM 06-15-2010
I do have the offender apologize because I think it is the right thing to do. If you hurt someone in any way, you OWE that person the decency of an apology. I don't allow the offender to re-enter the group after the time out until I see that they are calm. After the time out we talk about why what they did was wrong. I ask them if they like it when people hit them or throw toys at them and of course they say no. I ask why and they usually respond with a version of "because it hurts". Then if they are still mopey or mad acting, we color or draw until they have relaxed. Then I have the offender apologize to the victim and tell them WHY what they did was wrong. I don't ever tell the victim to say "its ok" or anything like that. That is what I do, and as you can see in the "how long can you put a child in time out" thread, it works for some, but not all. In my dc, it works for EVERYONE but the one I spoke of. I am still trying to figure something out with him. I had a long conversation with the mom last night, and she is as at a loss as I am. I feel bad because I think he gets lost in the shuffle, so I think he is acting out for attention. Sad. This whole thing has me at a loss as to how to handle him. I feel like I took quite a beating in the other thread, which doesn't help my already shaken confidence.
MN Mom 07:47 AM 06-15-2010
I have always taught my children that they MUST apologize when they have done wrong by someone. Of course, I chew them out...always asking if they understand everything they have done wrong, why it was wrong, and by this time they are normally crying. Once I'm sure they have understood their wrongdoing, I say : Now you go aplogize to your sister / brother/ friend, and give hugs. I never make the victim forgive, I leave it up to them...but 99% of the time they forgive. How would you feel if you were the victim, and didn't get an apology? I would feel like no one was fighting on my behalf. Thats just a personal opinion. It works well for my kids in their dicipline regiment. I don't normally like to brag, but my children are extremely well behaved in public and with friends / family. I can take all 4 with me anywhere, and the never act out of line, scream, cry, beg, tantrum...NEVER. They are pretty good kids at home too, most of the time .... but there are days!!
Treat others as you would like to be treated. When you are wrong, admit it. These are the things I teach my kids. Owning up to mistakes is one of the HARDEST lessons in life, so I want to make sure they are prepared.
Treat others as you would like to be treated. When you are wrong, admit it. These are the things I teach my kids. Owning up to mistakes is one of the HARDEST lessons in life, so I want to make sure they are prepared.
nannyde 08:39 AM 06-15-2010
I don't do the apologizing. The oldest kid in my house is normally 4-5 so I don't think they are really old enough to understand remorse. I focus on the behavior, consequence, and the understanding of not to do it again. I would much rather have a kid tell another kid "I won't do that again" then "I'm sorry".
My son got the "I'm sorry" bug from school. It's annoying. He thinks he can act up and spew "I'm sorry" and he gets to go about his merry way. It becomes the end of the conversaton or a way to get to the end of the conversation.
It's like time out. It's an easy out.
My son got the "I'm sorry" bug from school. It's annoying. He thinks he can act up and spew "I'm sorry" and he gets to go about his merry way. It becomes the end of the conversaton or a way to get to the end of the conversation.
It's like time out. It's an easy out.
sahm2three 09:08 AM 06-15-2010
"It's like time out. It's an easy out. "
Why is it an easy out? It is most definately NOT easy. Maybe if that is all that you did, but if it is accompanied by a conversation, why is it an easy way out? That is ridiculous.
Why is it an easy out? It is most definately NOT easy. Maybe if that is all that you did, but if it is accompanied by a conversation, why is it an easy way out? That is ridiculous.
nannyde 09:34 AM 06-15-2010
Originally Posted by sahm2three:
"It's like time out. It's an easy out. "
Why is it an easy out? It is most definately NOT easy. Maybe if that is all that you did, but if it is accompanied by a conversation, why is it an easy way out? That is ridiculous.
How much more explanation do you need? I don't do the apologizing. The oldest kid in my house is normally 4-5 so I don't think they are really old enough to understand remorse. I focus on the behavior, consequence, and the understanding of not to do it again. I would much rather have a kid tell another kid "I won't do that again" then "I'm sorry". "It's like time out. It's an easy out. "
Why is it an easy out? It is most definately NOT easy. Maybe if that is all that you did, but if it is accompanied by a conversation, why is it an easy way out? That is ridiculous.
I don't think my kids are old enough to understand "I'm sorry". I think they ARE old enough to commit to not doing something again. I focus on: recognize what you did was wrong. Tell me you know it's wrong. Show me what you could have done "right". Make a plan to do it right when it comes up again.
The words "I'm sorry" are said in a split second. This technique is used all over the country and the kids as little as two get the idea that all they have to do is spew "I'm sorry" and there is the end of the deal. They go to that quick because it means they get a Finnegan Beginagain. I don't play that.
Their parents like it too because it's fast and absolute. What better than a two word sentence and all is well? NO It wouldn't matter if you taught them to say "green eggs". It would mean the same.
Now when they are getting to be around five or so THEN you can start discussing feeling badly about what you have done and BEGIN to understand the impact it has on others. At that age you can begin to "get" how it would feel to be the guy who was on the receiving end of your actions as long as it is something you have actually experienced.
They can't for example be "I'm sorry" for breaking something that is expensive and difficult to replace because they haven't had to "replace" anything in their lives. They can understand how it feels to have a toy swiped from them. "I'm sorry" only works when they can actually put themselves into the place of the one who was wronged. THEN .. AFTER you have done the work of understanding and commitment to do the right thing... THEN you can get to can you feel sorry?
I don't use it with kids that can't get it. It's too easily manipulated into an "end game" move. I'm not talking about day care kids cuz my babies are babies. My son... he is the master at trying to get to I'm sorry as fast as the conversation will allow.
Saying "i'm sorry" signifies to the child that they have DONE something right. It's a move on their part that is quick and painless. Two seconds and we are home.. nearing home... get to start over. NOPE.
Like I said.. it's an "easy" button just like time out. Nan don't play easy.
sahm2three 09:36 AM 06-15-2010
Originally Posted by nannyde:
I don't do the apologizing. The oldest kid in my house is normally 4-5 so I don't think they are really old enough to understand remorse. I focus on the behavior, consequence, and the understanding of not to do it again. I would much rather have a kid tell another kid "I won't do that again" then "I'm sorry".
My son got the "I'm sorry" bug from school. It's annoying. He thinks he can act up and spew "I'm sorry" and he gets to go about his merry way. It becomes the end of the conversaton or a way to get to the end of the conversation.
It's like time out. It's an easy out.
I don't do the apologizing. The oldest kid in my house is normally 4-5 so I don't think they are really old enough to understand remorse. I focus on the behavior, consequence, and the understanding of not to do it again. I would much rather have a kid tell another kid "I won't do that again" then "I'm sorry".
My son got the "I'm sorry" bug from school. It's annoying. He thinks he can act up and spew "I'm sorry" and he gets to go about his merry way. It becomes the end of the conversaton or a way to get to the end of the conversation.
It's like time out. It's an easy out.
Originally Posted by nannyde:
How much more explanation do you need? I don't do the apologizing. The oldest kid in my house is normally 4-5 so I don't think they are really old enough to understand remorse. I focus on the behavior, consequence, and the understanding of not to do it again. I would much rather have a kid tell another kid "I won't do that again" then "I'm sorry".
I don't think my kids are old enough to understand "I'm sorry". I think they ARE old enough to commit to not doing something again. I focus on: recognize what you did was wrong. Tell me you know it's wrong. Show me what you could have done "right". Make a plan to do it right when it comes up again.
The words "I'm sorry" are said in a split second. This technique is used all over the country and the kids as little as two get the idea that all they have to do is spew "I'm sorry" and there is the end of the deal. They go to that quick because it means they get a Finnegan Beginagain. I don't play that.
Their parents like it too because it's fast and absolute. What better than a two word sentence and all is well? NO It wouldn't matter if you taught them to say "green eggs". It would mean the same.
Now when they are getting to be around five or so THEN you can start discussing feeling badly about what you have done and BEGIN to understand the impact it has on others. At that age you can begin to "get" how it would feel to be the guy who was on the receiving end of your actions as long as it is something you have actually experienced.
They can't for example be "I'm sorry" for breaking something that is expensive and difficult to replace because they haven't had to "replace" anything in their lives. They can understand how it feels to have a toy swiped from them. "I'm sorry" only works when they can actually put themselves into the place of the one who was wronged. THEN .. AFTER you have done the work of understanding and commitment to do the right thing... THEN you can get to can you feel sorry?
I don't use it with kids that can't get it. It's too easily manipulated into an "end game" move. I'm not talking about day care kids cuz my babies are babies. My son... he is the master at trying to get to I'm sorry as fast as the conversation will allow.
Saying "i'm sorry" signifies to the child that they have DONE something right. It's a move on their part that is quick and painless. Two seconds and we are home.. nearing home... get to start over. NOPE.
Like I said.. it's an "easy" button just like time out. Nan don't play easy.
I am not asking about the I'm Sorry. I am asking about the Time Outs. No need to be condescending. Really.How much more explanation do you need? I don't do the apologizing. The oldest kid in my house is normally 4-5 so I don't think they are really old enough to understand remorse. I focus on the behavior, consequence, and the understanding of not to do it again. I would much rather have a kid tell another kid "I won't do that again" then "I'm sorry".
I don't think my kids are old enough to understand "I'm sorry". I think they ARE old enough to commit to not doing something again. I focus on: recognize what you did was wrong. Tell me you know it's wrong. Show me what you could have done "right". Make a plan to do it right when it comes up again.
The words "I'm sorry" are said in a split second. This technique is used all over the country and the kids as little as two get the idea that all they have to do is spew "I'm sorry" and there is the end of the deal. They go to that quick because it means they get a Finnegan Beginagain. I don't play that.
Their parents like it too because it's fast and absolute. What better than a two word sentence and all is well? NO It wouldn't matter if you taught them to say "green eggs". It would mean the same.
Now when they are getting to be around five or so THEN you can start discussing feeling badly about what you have done and BEGIN to understand the impact it has on others. At that age you can begin to "get" how it would feel to be the guy who was on the receiving end of your actions as long as it is something you have actually experienced.
They can't for example be "I'm sorry" for breaking something that is expensive and difficult to replace because they haven't had to "replace" anything in their lives. They can understand how it feels to have a toy swiped from them. "I'm sorry" only works when they can actually put themselves into the place of the one who was wronged. THEN .. AFTER you have done the work of understanding and commitment to do the right thing... THEN you can get to can you feel sorry?
I don't use it with kids that can't get it. It's too easily manipulated into an "end game" move. I'm not talking about day care kids cuz my babies are babies. My son... he is the master at trying to get to I'm sorry as fast as the conversation will allow.
Saying "i'm sorry" signifies to the child that they have DONE something right. It's a move on their part that is quick and painless. Two seconds and we are home.. nearing home... get to start over. NOPE.
Like I said.. it's an "easy" button just like time out. Nan don't play easy.
fctjc1979 09:55 AM 06-15-2010
Originally Posted by MN Mom:
I have always taught my children that they MUST apologize when they have done wrong by someone. Of course, I chew them out...always asking if they understand everything they have done wrong, why it was wrong, and by this time they are normally crying. Once I'm sure they have understood their wrongdoing, I say : Now you go aplogize to your sister / brother/ friend, and give hugs. I never make the victim forgive, I leave it up to them...but 99% of the time they forgive. How would you feel if you were the victim, and didn't get an apology? I would feel like no one was fighting on my behalf. Thats just a personal opinion. It works well for my kids in their dicipline regiment. I don't normally like to brag, but my children are extremely well behaved in public and with friends / family. I can take all 4 with me anywhere, and the never act out of line, scream, cry, beg, tantrum...NEVER. They are pretty good kids at home too, most of the time .... but there are days!!
Treat others as you would like to be treated. When you are wrong, admit it. These are the things I teach my kids. Owning up to mistakes is one of the HARDEST lessons in life, so I want to make sure they are prepared.
I HAVE been a victim that DID get an apology that I knew was forced and thought it was completely useless. In my experience as a mother and a childcare provider, those that aren't forced to apologize end up apologizing at some point, maybe not the same day, becuase they realize by the victim's reaction that what they did hurt them and they do eventually feel sorry about it. If they've already been forced to apologize, this cheats the victim out of the real apology that comes later. Just my opinion based on what I've seen happen over and over again. I would have to agree with Nannyde, that saying I'm sorry when it's not really meant, is another cop out. It's too easy to get around dealing with the actual issue. OR the child who was forced to apologize comes to apply a negative connotation to apologies and you end up with kids and adults that can't seem to apologize even when they know they should because they see it as part of a punishment.I have always taught my children that they MUST apologize when they have done wrong by someone. Of course, I chew them out...always asking if they understand everything they have done wrong, why it was wrong, and by this time they are normally crying. Once I'm sure they have understood their wrongdoing, I say : Now you go aplogize to your sister / brother/ friend, and give hugs. I never make the victim forgive, I leave it up to them...but 99% of the time they forgive. How would you feel if you were the victim, and didn't get an apology? I would feel like no one was fighting on my behalf. Thats just a personal opinion. It works well for my kids in their dicipline regiment. I don't normally like to brag, but my children are extremely well behaved in public and with friends / family. I can take all 4 with me anywhere, and the never act out of line, scream, cry, beg, tantrum...NEVER. They are pretty good kids at home too, most of the time .... but there are days!!
Treat others as you would like to be treated. When you are wrong, admit it. These are the things I teach my kids. Owning up to mistakes is one of the HARDEST lessons in life, so I want to make sure they are prepared.
fctjc1979 04:01 PM 06-15-2010
Originally Posted by jen:
I don't think your are necessarily wrong, I think it is one of those judgement things. Personally, I do make kids apologize...generally to the ENTIRE group when age approriate.
Say Susie hits Tommy. I would tell Susie that she has broken the rules of my home, she has hurt another person and all her friends have had to stop our activity to deal with her poor choices. I am very unhappy about that and so are her friends. She needs to apologize to me for breaking my rules, to her friends for interrupting our play time, and to Tommy for hurting him. She is then prohibited from returning to the group activity and may sit and look at books at the table until we have finished.
DISCLAIMER: I am not talking about toddlers, but children who are old enough to understand. If they can understand what they did is wrong they can understand the consequences. And, for those who want to say that it is wrong to "shame" a child by making them publicly apologize...they should be ashamed, they hit someone! Personally, I think that the whole, "let's not shame the child thing" is where we are going wrong as a society. No, we shouldn't shame a child for an accident, but it is OK to be ashamed if we hurt another person, intentionally or carelessly damage someones property, or take something that doesn't belong to us.
I also think shame - if they SHOULD be feeling shame - is very useful. I really like your idea of having them apologize to the entire group. I've never done it before, but it totally makes sense. I'm still not sure I like the idea of forced apologies, but I think if I were to start using them, I would have them apologize to the entire group.I don't think your are necessarily wrong, I think it is one of those judgement things. Personally, I do make kids apologize...generally to the ENTIRE group when age approriate.
Say Susie hits Tommy. I would tell Susie that she has broken the rules of my home, she has hurt another person and all her friends have had to stop our activity to deal with her poor choices. I am very unhappy about that and so are her friends. She needs to apologize to me for breaking my rules, to her friends for interrupting our play time, and to Tommy for hurting him. She is then prohibited from returning to the group activity and may sit and look at books at the table until we have finished.
DISCLAIMER: I am not talking about toddlers, but children who are old enough to understand. If they can understand what they did is wrong they can understand the consequences. And, for those who want to say that it is wrong to "shame" a child by making them publicly apologize...they should be ashamed, they hit someone! Personally, I think that the whole, "let's not shame the child thing" is where we are going wrong as a society. No, we shouldn't shame a child for an accident, but it is OK to be ashamed if we hurt another person, intentionally or carelessly damage someones property, or take something that doesn't belong to us.
jen 07:24 PM 06-15-2010
Originally Posted by fctjc1979:
I also think shame - if they SHOULD be feeling shame - is very useful. I really like your idea of having them apologize to the entire group. I've never done it before, but it totally makes sense. I'm still not sure I like the idea of forced apologies, but I think if I were to start using them, I would have them apologize to the entire group.
I agree with Nanny in that kids this age don't really feel remorse. I do think however that learning that one has to be accountable, that it doesn't feel good, and that it is an "uncomfortable" feeling is a useful tool. Right now they are the center of their own universe, they really aren't wired to have a strong moral compass or empathy for others...it's all about THEM and making THEM uncomfortable enough not to do it again.I also think shame - if they SHOULD be feeling shame - is very useful. I really like your idea of having them apologize to the entire group. I've never done it before, but it totally makes sense. I'm still not sure I like the idea of forced apologies, but I think if I were to start using them, I would have them apologize to the entire group.
Janet 07:40 PM 06-15-2010
I don't do the whole "apologizing" thing and this is why. Kids who are told to apologize start to associate saying "sorry" with automatically getting out of trouble. If a child chooses to apologize, then that's fine, but the consequence is still in effect. Kids learn that they can do what they want and then just throw a "sorry" out there. They don't even have to mean it. To me, "I'm sorry" are just words. I tell them not to be sorry, just make better choices.
JRiffee 09:41 PM 06-15-2010
I don't necessarily agree with forcing an apology but I do agree with TEACHING children the how, when, and why's of apologizing and also the victim should/can learn forgiveness.
QualiTcare 09:41 PM 06-15-2010
you shouldn't make a kid say they're sorry - period, end of story.
Janet 04:33 AM 06-16-2010
Yeah, I agree. My rationale for not forcing an apology may be a bit different. It's not about being fair to the aggressor, it's about helping them to be genuine when they apologize. There will still be a consequence, believe that! But an apology doesn't figure into the equation unless the aggressor chooses to apologize on his/her own.
TGT09 04:55 AM 06-16-2010
Originally Posted by jen:
I don't think your are necessarily wrong, I think it is one of those judgement things. Personally, I do make kids apologize...generally to the ENTIRE group when age approriate.
Say Susie hits Tommy. I would tell Susie that she has broken the rules of my home, she has hurt another person and all her friends have had to stop our activity to deal with her poor choices. I am very unhappy about that and so are her friends. She needs to apologize to me for breaking my rules, to her friends for interrupting our play time, and to Tommy for hurting him. She is then prohibited from returning to the group activity and may sit and look at books at the table until we have finished.
DISCLAIMER: I am not talking about toddlers, but children who are old enough to understand. If they can understand what they did is wrong they can understand the consequences. And, for those who want to say that it is wrong to "shame" a child by making them publicly apologize...they should be ashamed, they hit someone! Personally, I think that the whole, "let's not shame the child thing" is where we are going wrong as a society. No, we shouldn't shame a child for an accident, but it is OK to be ashamed if we hurt another person, intentionally or carelessly damage someones property, or take something that doesn't belong to us.
No need to zip the flame suit here either! Oh good Lord, finally someone that I completely agree with! COMPLETELY! I feel like a big meanie when I go out of my way to make a child apologize....I have one that wants to apologize in whisper and I don't even allow that...he has to say it out loud or go back in time out. YES, we should make them say "I'm sorry"....children who don't have to apologize are not having consequences and therefore are NOT learning anything! Children learn from consequences...whether it's fun or PC, it's true!!!!I don't think your are necessarily wrong, I think it is one of those judgement things. Personally, I do make kids apologize...generally to the ENTIRE group when age approriate.
Say Susie hits Tommy. I would tell Susie that she has broken the rules of my home, she has hurt another person and all her friends have had to stop our activity to deal with her poor choices. I am very unhappy about that and so are her friends. She needs to apologize to me for breaking my rules, to her friends for interrupting our play time, and to Tommy for hurting him. She is then prohibited from returning to the group activity and may sit and look at books at the table until we have finished.
DISCLAIMER: I am not talking about toddlers, but children who are old enough to understand. If they can understand what they did is wrong they can understand the consequences. And, for those who want to say that it is wrong to "shame" a child by making them publicly apologize...they should be ashamed, they hit someone! Personally, I think that the whole, "let's not shame the child thing" is where we are going wrong as a society. No, we shouldn't shame a child for an accident, but it is OK to be ashamed if we hurt another person, intentionally or carelessly damage someones property, or take something that doesn't belong to us.
TGT09 04:59 AM 06-16-2010
Oh and to finish reading the rest of the posts. Time out is not an easy out because in my daycare it's followed by a conversation. No matter what age of the child they have to come to me, make eye contact and tell ME what they did wrong and explain WHY it was wrong.
I agree that "I'm sorry" becomes an easy out for children, however you have to enforce the conversation afterwards. It's not the end of the punishment just for saying I'm sorry.
I agree that "I'm sorry" becomes an easy out for children, however you have to enforce the conversation afterwards. It's not the end of the punishment just for saying I'm sorry.
jen 05:00 AM 06-16-2010
Originally Posted by Janet:
I don't do the whole "apologizing" thing and this is why. Kids who are told to apologize start to associate saying "sorry" with automatically getting out of trouble. If a child chooses to apologize, then that's fine, but the consequence is still in effect. Kids learn that they can do what they want and then just throw a "sorry" out there. They don't even have to mean it. To me, "I'm sorry" are just words. I tell them not to be sorry, just make better choices.
That is why when my daycare kids apologize they are not allowed back in to the group. It isn't a get out of jail free card!I don't do the whole "apologizing" thing and this is why. Kids who are told to apologize start to associate saying "sorry" with automatically getting out of trouble. If a child chooses to apologize, then that's fine, but the consequence is still in effect. Kids learn that they can do what they want and then just throw a "sorry" out there. They don't even have to mean it. To me, "I'm sorry" are just words. I tell them not to be sorry, just make better choices.
fctjc1979 05:21 AM 06-16-2010
Getting some great replies here. At least the people who disagree with me are giving REASONS. I honestly couldn't get anyone to give me reasons as to why they thought I was wrong. Here is another one that I thought of last night.
If you force a child to say I'm sorry, and they aren't sorry, aren't you asking - actually demanding - that they lie? I think I would much rather ask them if they would like to apologize and/or explain why I think they should apologize and then leave the decision to apologize up to the child.
I also agree that and I'm sorry, even a heart felt one, should not get the child out of trouble.
I would have to disagree with TGT09 about them not having consequences if they don't have to apologize. I honestly don't think that apologizing should be part of the punishment. As I wrote in another post, I think that's how we get adults that can't apologize even when they know they're wrong because they see it as a punishment.
Thanks for the comments everyone. I'm still not ready to change my mind, but at least I have an understanding of why people use this.
I saw in one daycare where a boy bit a girl hard enough to break the skin. The provider screamed at the boy to apologize to the girl. When he did, the girl was standing there, sobbing and holding her arm, and she turned away rather than responding. (I happen to know this girl and knew she just didn't like people seeing her cry.) The provider grabbed the girl by the arm (not the arm that was bitten), turned her around to face the boy, and said, "That was not nice! He just apologized to you!". Then she made the girl sit in the corner when she wouldn't respond to the boy. I know this is an extreme case. I've never seen anything like this before or since. And from the posts on here, I don't think any of the providers on here are advocating making the victim forgive. I'm just giving this as an example of what I've seen - and as something that, once I did see it, reinforced my belief that forced apologies don't work for the offender or the victim. (Yes, something WAS done about this situation.)
If you force a child to say I'm sorry, and they aren't sorry, aren't you asking - actually demanding - that they lie? I think I would much rather ask them if they would like to apologize and/or explain why I think they should apologize and then leave the decision to apologize up to the child.
I also agree that and I'm sorry, even a heart felt one, should not get the child out of trouble.
I would have to disagree with TGT09 about them not having consequences if they don't have to apologize. I honestly don't think that apologizing should be part of the punishment. As I wrote in another post, I think that's how we get adults that can't apologize even when they know they're wrong because they see it as a punishment.
Thanks for the comments everyone. I'm still not ready to change my mind, but at least I have an understanding of why people use this.
I saw in one daycare where a boy bit a girl hard enough to break the skin. The provider screamed at the boy to apologize to the girl. When he did, the girl was standing there, sobbing and holding her arm, and she turned away rather than responding. (I happen to know this girl and knew she just didn't like people seeing her cry.) The provider grabbed the girl by the arm (not the arm that was bitten), turned her around to face the boy, and said, "That was not nice! He just apologized to you!". Then she made the girl sit in the corner when she wouldn't respond to the boy. I know this is an extreme case. I've never seen anything like this before or since. And from the posts on here, I don't think any of the providers on here are advocating making the victim forgive. I'm just giving this as an example of what I've seen - and as something that, once I did see it, reinforced my belief that forced apologies don't work for the offender or the victim. (Yes, something WAS done about this situation.)
jen 06:53 AM 06-16-2010
I just want to add that I NEVER make the victim respond. And if they do want to respond, I suggest that they simply say thank you. It's not "OK" and I don't really want the victim to say that it is.
Lilbutterflie 07:05 AM 06-16-2010
I never make the victim respond, either. I agree, sometimes they are not ready to talk to the offender yet! And that is totally understandable.
I do make the offender apologize, though- AFTER they have had their punishment. I think they need to learn that their actions affect other people and apologize for what they have done to the victim. Another important part of apologies in my opinion is that if forces them to verbally admit they did something wrong. It doesn't get any more real than when they have to say sorry.
I had a dcg rip up a Thomas and Friends catalog this morning. ALL of the kids LOVE this catalog and look at it daily. She ruined it for everyone! So, she had to apologize to every child individually. She was sincere in her apology, and I don't think she'll ever rip anything up again!!
I do make the offender apologize, though- AFTER they have had their punishment. I think they need to learn that their actions affect other people and apologize for what they have done to the victim. Another important part of apologies in my opinion is that if forces them to verbally admit they did something wrong. It doesn't get any more real than when they have to say sorry.
I had a dcg rip up a Thomas and Friends catalog this morning. ALL of the kids LOVE this catalog and look at it daily. She ruined it for everyone! So, she had to apologize to every child individually. She was sincere in her apology, and I don't think she'll ever rip anything up again!!
DBug 10:02 AM 06-16-2010
I agree -- I do make the kids apologize, after they have served their time (or whatever the consequence is). They don't get out of time-out early for apologizing, but the older ones will get sent back if they don't apologize.
In my opinion, it's more about teaching societal expectations. If I bump into someone on the sidewalk, I say sorry to them, whether it was my fault or theirs (although maybe that's a Canadian thing
). It's just like teaching them to say "Thank You" for a gift, even if they're not thankful. It's diplomacy, and yes, sometimes it's fake. But which one of us asks the grocery clerk "How are you today?", and actually means it? We don't, it's just how we behave in a society like this. To do anything else would be impolite and rude. JMO ... I also suggest (not require) that the victim say "That's okay" or "I forgive you", because I believe forgiveness is a choice, not a feeling. I would much rather give kids the opportunity to practice social skills like this. It forces them to think about others, and not just themselves. It creates opportunities for empathy, and I think that's a good thing.
In my opinion, it's more about teaching societal expectations. If I bump into someone on the sidewalk, I say sorry to them, whether it was my fault or theirs (although maybe that's a Canadian thing
). It's just like teaching them to say "Thank You" for a gift, even if they're not thankful. It's diplomacy, and yes, sometimes it's fake. But which one of us asks the grocery clerk "How are you today?", and actually means it? We don't, it's just how we behave in a society like this. To do anything else would be impolite and rude. JMO ... I also suggest (not require) that the victim say "That's okay" or "I forgive you", because I believe forgiveness is a choice, not a feeling. I would much rather give kids the opportunity to practice social skills like this. It forces them to think about others, and not just themselves. It creates opportunities for empathy, and I think that's a good thing.
QualiTcare 10:17 PM 06-16-2010
Originally Posted by fctjc1979:
Getting some great replies here. At least the people who disagree with me are giving REASONS. I honestly couldn't get anyone to give me reasons as to why they thought I was wrong. Here is another one that I thought of last night.
If you force a child to say I'm sorry, and they aren't sorry, aren't you asking - actually demanding - that they lie? I think I would much rather ask them if they would like to apologize and/or explain why I think they should apologize and then leave the decision to apologize up to the child.
I also agree that and I'm sorry, even a heart felt one, should not get the child out of trouble.
I would have to disagree with TGT09 about them not having consequences if they don't have to apologize. I honestly don't think that apologizing should be part of the punishment. As I wrote in another post, I think that's how we get adults that can't apologize even when they know they're wrong because they see it as a punishment.
Thanks for the comments everyone. I'm still not ready to change my mind, but at least I have an understanding of why people use this.
I saw in one daycare where a boy bit a girl hard enough to break the skin. The provider screamed at the boy to apologize to the girl. When he did, the girl was standing there, sobbing and holding her arm, and she turned away rather than responding. (I happen to know this girl and knew she just didn't like people seeing her cry.) The provider grabbed the girl by the arm (not the arm that was bitten), turned her around to face the boy, and said, "That was not nice! He just apologized to you!". Then she made the girl sit in the corner when she wouldn't respond to the boy. I know this is an extreme case. I've never seen anything like this before or since. And from the posts on here, I don't think any of the providers on here are advocating making the victim forgive. I'm just giving this as an example of what I've seen - and as something that, once I did see it, reinforced my belief that forced apologies don't work for the offender or the victim. (Yes, something WAS done about this situation.)
well, i didn't give the reason that i said kids shouldn't have to apologize, but my reasons are:Getting some great replies here. At least the people who disagree with me are giving REASONS. I honestly couldn't get anyone to give me reasons as to why they thought I was wrong. Here is another one that I thought of last night.
If you force a child to say I'm sorry, and they aren't sorry, aren't you asking - actually demanding - that they lie? I think I would much rather ask them if they would like to apologize and/or explain why I think they should apologize and then leave the decision to apologize up to the child.
I also agree that and I'm sorry, even a heart felt one, should not get the child out of trouble.
I would have to disagree with TGT09 about them not having consequences if they don't have to apologize. I honestly don't think that apologizing should be part of the punishment. As I wrote in another post, I think that's how we get adults that can't apologize even when they know they're wrong because they see it as a punishment.
Thanks for the comments everyone. I'm still not ready to change my mind, but at least I have an understanding of why people use this.
I saw in one daycare where a boy bit a girl hard enough to break the skin. The provider screamed at the boy to apologize to the girl. When he did, the girl was standing there, sobbing and holding her arm, and she turned away rather than responding. (I happen to know this girl and knew she just didn't like people seeing her cry.) The provider grabbed the girl by the arm (not the arm that was bitten), turned her around to face the boy, and said, "That was not nice! He just apologized to you!". Then she made the girl sit in the corner when she wouldn't respond to the boy. I know this is an extreme case. I've never seen anything like this before or since. And from the posts on here, I don't think any of the providers on here are advocating making the victim forgive. I'm just giving this as an example of what I've seen - and as something that, once I did see it, reinforced my belief that forced apologies don't work for the offender or the victim. (Yes, something WAS done about this situation.)
A) i believe what you believe..
B) every professor i had when i was getting my early childhood degree that took FOUR years...that's a lot of professors - had the same logic.
i'll go with my gut, and what the experts say. my husband tells me that i HATE saying i'm sorry, and i'm like, "noo...i'm just usually not sorry." i don't say i'm sorry if i'm not and if i say something really evil, i pretty much meant to say it and it felt good. why would i say i'm sorry?
the best alternative IMO is "I messages" - which takes the blame out of it when u have the kids talk...instead of them saying, "YOU made me mad when YOU took my toy..." they say, "I felt..."
i didn't get the concept online, but here's a website that talks about it:
http://www.drnadig.com/feelings.htm
if you teach the kids to use these "i messages" then instead of saying, "say you're sorry," you can ask, "can you use an i message to tell johnny what ur thinking." it has to be taught and modeled - they don't just know how to do it after one time unlike "i'm sorry" which is very simple to remember and unacceptably sufficient.
fctjc1979 05:41 AM 06-17-2010
Originally Posted by DBug:
I agree -- I do make the kids apologize, after they have served their time (or whatever the consequence is). They don't get out of time-out early for apologizing, but the older ones will get sent back if they don't apologize.
In my opinion, it's more about teaching societal expectations. If I bump into someone on the sidewalk, I say sorry to them, whether it was my fault or theirs (although maybe that's a Canadian thing). It's just like teaching them to say "Thank You" for a gift, even if they're not thankful. It's diplomacy, and yes, sometimes it's fake. But which one of us asks the grocery clerk "How are you today?", and actually means it? We don't, it's just how we behave in a society like this. To do anything else would be impolite and rude. JMO ... I also suggest (not require) that the victim say "That's okay" or "I forgive you", because I believe forgiveness is a choice, not a feeling. I would much rather give kids the opportunity to practice social skills like this. It forces them to think about others, and not just themselves. It creates opportunities for empathy, and I think that's a good thing.
This was a really good point. There are a lot of everyday phrases that we use as just societal norms that have nothing to do with how we actually feel or think. The difference for me, I think, is that I don't count "I'm sorry" as one of them. I use "excuse me" when I bump into someone unless I really would like to apologize because I was being careless. I think I place a lot of significance on phrases like "I'm sorry", "I love you", and "I forgive you". Because these are phrases that are lies if they aren't truly felt, I use other phrases if I don't actually feel them. But I totally see your point about teaching kids manners and how to get through society by being polite and following the norms even if they don't want to. We teach the same type of thing when we teach kids to use a respectful tone with adults even if they have no respect for that particular adult. I had more in my head, but just lost my train of thought. Geesh. I agree -- I do make the kids apologize, after they have served their time (or whatever the consequence is). They don't get out of time-out early for apologizing, but the older ones will get sent back if they don't apologize.
In my opinion, it's more about teaching societal expectations. If I bump into someone on the sidewalk, I say sorry to them, whether it was my fault or theirs (although maybe that's a Canadian thing
). It's just like teaching them to say "Thank You" for a gift, even if they're not thankful. It's diplomacy, and yes, sometimes it's fake. But which one of us asks the grocery clerk "How are you today?", and actually means it? We don't, it's just how we behave in a society like this. To do anything else would be impolite and rude. JMO ... I also suggest (not require) that the victim say "That's okay" or "I forgive you", because I believe forgiveness is a choice, not a feeling. I would much rather give kids the opportunity to practice social skills like this. It forces them to think about others, and not just themselves. It creates opportunities for empathy, and I think that's a good thing.
fctjc1979 06:03 AM 06-17-2010
Originally Posted by QualiTcare:
well, i didn't give the reason that i said kids shouldn't have to apologize, but my reasons are:
A) i believe what you believe..
B) every professor i had when i was getting my early childhood degree that took FOUR years...that's a lot of professors - had the same logic.
i'll go with my gut, and what the experts say. my husband tells me that i HATE saying i'm sorry, and i'm like, "noo...i'm just usually not sorry." i don't say i'm sorry if i'm not and if i say something really evil, i pretty much meant to say it and it felt good. why would i say i'm sorry?
the best alternative IMO is "I messages" - which takes the blame out of it when u have the kids talk...instead of them saying, "YOU made me mad when YOU took my toy..." they say, "I felt..."
i didn't get the concept online, but here's a website that talks about it:
http://www.drnadig.com/feelings.htm
if you teach the kids to use these "i messages" then instead of saying, "say you're sorry," you can ask, "can you use an i message to tell johnny what ur thinking." it has to be taught and modeled - they don't just know how to do it after one time unlike "i'm sorry" which is very simple to remember and unacceptably sufficient.
I use something sort of similar to that for kids that I know aren't sorry for what they did. I've made a couple of kids say to me or their victim things like "I know I shouldn't have ........." That way, they have to at least acknowledge that they did wrong but they don't have to say they're sorry for doing it if they really aren't. I've only used this for kids that have chronic bad behavior, though, in order to reinforce the discipline and learning for that particular behavior. It's not something I usually do for "incidentals". And even then, I won't have them say it to the victim if the victim still wants to stay away from the offender. I do not encourage the offender approaching the victim in any way until the victim is ready for it.well, i didn't give the reason that i said kids shouldn't have to apologize, but my reasons are:
A) i believe what you believe..
B) every professor i had when i was getting my early childhood degree that took FOUR years...that's a lot of professors - had the same logic.
i'll go with my gut, and what the experts say. my husband tells me that i HATE saying i'm sorry, and i'm like, "noo...i'm just usually not sorry." i don't say i'm sorry if i'm not and if i say something really evil, i pretty much meant to say it and it felt good. why would i say i'm sorry?
the best alternative IMO is "I messages" - which takes the blame out of it when u have the kids talk...instead of them saying, "YOU made me mad when YOU took my toy..." they say, "I felt..."
i didn't get the concept online, but here's a website that talks about it:
http://www.drnadig.com/feelings.htm
if you teach the kids to use these "i messages" then instead of saying, "say you're sorry," you can ask, "can you use an i message to tell johnny what ur thinking." it has to be taught and modeled - they don't just know how to do it after one time unlike "i'm sorry" which is very simple to remember and unacceptably sufficient.
QualiTcare 12:57 PM 06-17-2010
Originally Posted by fctjc1979:
I use something sort of similar to that for kids that I know aren't sorry for what they did. I've made a couple of kids say to me or their victim things like "I know I shouldn't have ........." That way, they have to at least acknowledge that they did wrong but they don't have to say they're sorry for doing it if they really aren't. I've only used this for kids that have chronic bad behavior, though, in order to reinforce the discipline and learning for that particular behavior. It's not something I usually do for "incidentals". And even then, I won't have them say it to the victim if the victim still wants to stay away from the offender. I do not encourage the offender approaching the victim in any way until the victim is ready for it.
you just lost me. isn't having them say, "i know i shouldn't have.." sort of the same as having them say, "i'm sorry"?I use something sort of similar to that for kids that I know aren't sorry for what they did. I've made a couple of kids say to me or their victim things like "I know I shouldn't have ........." That way, they have to at least acknowledge that they did wrong but they don't have to say they're sorry for doing it if they really aren't. I've only used this for kids that have chronic bad behavior, though, in order to reinforce the discipline and learning for that particular behavior. It's not something I usually do for "incidentals". And even then, I won't have them say it to the victim if the victim still wants to stay away from the offender. I do not encourage the offender approaching the victim in any way until the victim is ready for it.
maybe they don't think they shouldn't have. they might have knocked someone in the head and loved every minute of it. i just don't see the difference.
fctjc1979 03:47 PM 06-17-2010
Originally Posted by QualiTcare:
you just lost me. isn't having them say, "i know i shouldn't have.." sort of the same as having them say, "i'm sorry"?
maybe they don't think they shouldn't have. they might have knocked someone in the head and loved every minute of it. i just don't see the difference.
No, it's not the same thing. For instance, if a child A calls child B a bad name, child B hits child A, and both children get in trouble, child B may know he shouldn't have hit child A for calling him a name, but that doesn't mean he's sorry. Knowing the rules and being sorry for breaking the rules are two different things. It's just an acknowledgement that they know what the rules are. Just like most adults know they aren't supposed to speed, but are we really sorry for going five miles over on the highway? Probably not. Knowing the rules is intellectual, being sorry is emotional.you just lost me. isn't having them say, "i know i shouldn't have.." sort of the same as having them say, "i'm sorry"?
maybe they don't think they shouldn't have. they might have knocked someone in the head and loved every minute of it. i just don't see the difference.
professionalmom 08:20 PM 06-17-2010
There was a lot of discussion about discipline in another thread and since that thread, I have been thinking about a few things. First, I am the one that has the 4 year degree in criminal justice. Long story as to why the career change, but trust me it would make a whole lot of sense. And there is a connection between early childhood and juvenile delinquents.
All that aside, when I was in college, I learned about a new form of law/justice that was just emerging. It was called "restorative justice". The concept was focused on "healing the harm". They had a ton of success with juveniles. It would work like this: Teens A, B, & C jump a construction site's fence and vandalize the site. They get arrested. Under traditional juvenile justice systems, they would go to trial and then a juvenile detention center (jail/prison). Under restorative justice, a mediator would take over, sit down in a meeting with the owner of the construction company (& maybe a some of his employees), the kids, the parents, and the people who would benefit from the construction project finishing on time. So it becomes a meeting of the community. The kids have to listen to the victims talk about how the vandalism harmed them, set them back, how it impacts the community, etc. Then everyone brainstorms on ways the kids can fix what they have "broken". This could be removing graffiti, picking up the trash, apologizing to the entire construction crew, doing 20 hours of (age appropriate) work for the construction company, etc. This severely reduced the recidivism (repeat offender) rate.
How would that work in daycare? Well, for the children that can talk, you can have the victim tell the bully what the victim felt, how it physically hurt, how it scared him/her, how the victim doesn't want to play with the bully for a while, etc. This may help them to begin the process of understanding that words and actions do affect others. They are way to young to understand empathy, but it does set the foundation for it. Plus, the focus is on "fixing the harm" not "punishment for a crime". So if kid A smacked kid B, kid A could "kiss the boo boo" or hand you help you put a bandaid on the victim (even if there isn't a mark), etc.
Of course, back in my day, if kid A hit kid B, then kid B was allowed to hit kid A back to "show" kid B how it felt. You got the picture really fast. But we can't do that in daycare.
All that aside, when I was in college, I learned about a new form of law/justice that was just emerging. It was called "restorative justice". The concept was focused on "healing the harm". They had a ton of success with juveniles. It would work like this: Teens A, B, & C jump a construction site's fence and vandalize the site. They get arrested. Under traditional juvenile justice systems, they would go to trial and then a juvenile detention center (jail/prison). Under restorative justice, a mediator would take over, sit down in a meeting with the owner of the construction company (& maybe a some of his employees), the kids, the parents, and the people who would benefit from the construction project finishing on time. So it becomes a meeting of the community. The kids have to listen to the victims talk about how the vandalism harmed them, set them back, how it impacts the community, etc. Then everyone brainstorms on ways the kids can fix what they have "broken". This could be removing graffiti, picking up the trash, apologizing to the entire construction crew, doing 20 hours of (age appropriate) work for the construction company, etc. This severely reduced the recidivism (repeat offender) rate.
How would that work in daycare? Well, for the children that can talk, you can have the victim tell the bully what the victim felt, how it physically hurt, how it scared him/her, how the victim doesn't want to play with the bully for a while, etc. This may help them to begin the process of understanding that words and actions do affect others. They are way to young to understand empathy, but it does set the foundation for it. Plus, the focus is on "fixing the harm" not "punishment for a crime". So if kid A smacked kid B, kid A could "kiss the boo boo" or hand you help you put a bandaid on the victim (even if there isn't a mark), etc.
Of course, back in my day, if kid A hit kid B, then kid B was allowed to hit kid A back to "show" kid B how it felt. You got the picture really fast. But we can't do that in daycare.
fctjc1979 07:26 AM 06-18-2010
I think that having a group discussion would be an excellent idea. I think it would help in a daycare situation because the input from the other kids would help the offender realize that even the non-victims in the group are still effected by what he/she did. And if the victim was really upset and didn't really want to talk yet, the input from the other kids in the group could help speak for the victim. The kids could even discuss that they think that the offender should apologize, that way the victim feels that there are people on their side without actually forcing a false apology from the offender. Although I think that this would be another situation where you would have to know the daycare kids really well so you would know whether a discussion like this would further upset the victim. I think some sensitive children might feel self-conscious about it. But then, maybe that needs to happen anyway to help the sensitive child get over that. I'll have to think about that one.