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  #1  
Old 04-29-2010, 07:26 PM
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Default A Very Bad Day

So, today, my 21 month old dcb, (who is a little behind developmentally) managed to trip on his own two feet while holding a little people bus, fell and bonked himself on the nose. Of course, the nose began to bleed, his sister and the other kids began to freak. To make it even better, since litttle buddy bled on his shirt etc, I called mom & let her know of his mishap (mind you this kid falls constantly- one of those you think should wear a helmet) to let her know she might want to bring his spare sweatshirt if they're stopping anywhere after daycare. (Mom makes stops at Walmart, grocery store etc). She was at my house in less than 10 mn to take him to the ER in case his nose was broken or he had a concussion. She has NEVER gotten to my house to pick up her kids that fast in 2 years, including when her daughter puked on my lunch table) I told her it was pretty unlikely he had a concussion, since he basically sat down , so at most impacted the toy bus from a drop distance of around 1 foot, not running etc. She just wanted to "make sure" and brought him back in an hour & went back to work- the Dr. assured her he was fine, it might show some bruising tomorrow but otherwise he's fine. Since she works for the county in child protection, she went back to work making a big deal about her poor baby who was all busted up- when, I took pictures- he fell at 10:15, was back in daycare by 11:30, and still at 4:00 I couldn't see any bruising or swelling. Now I get to pay his ER visit, turn in a report to county licensing and deal with them for surprise/follow up visits etc, probably because she wanted to get out of a meeting. Afterwards, she said she didnt realize it would be such a big deal, she just was really worried about him. She let her daughter fall 3 feet off a porch onto cement last winter while loading her baby into car, with bloodied lip etc, and brought her to daycare & dumped her off on me to clean up and never took her in. She dumps sick kids here all the time, stays home alone for mental health days- watches her kids while on vicadin for pain because of all her messed up hypochondriac health problems (she loves the attention/drama)
I'm wishing I fired her before. I finally got her picking up in a more timely manner etc and now I'm screwed because she overreacted. I'm so mad its not funny. I really, really can't stand her, and am tired of pretending I don't- especially since her kids pretty slow- she spent the entire preganancy chain smoking, on various medications, and dieting because the former 300 lb beauty didnt want to gain while pregant and undue her weight loss after her gastric bypass. I am really, really stressed out and mad at her for being such a moron.
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Old 04-29-2010, 08:31 PM
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Oh, Carole's Daycare...I know this is a mess right now, but this too shall pass. I remember previous posts about this Child Protective Services mom you have and what a pain she is! BIG HUGS!!!
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Old 04-29-2010, 09:43 PM
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Oh my goodness! That does suck! But WHY are you paying his ER visit????
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Old 04-29-2010, 09:44 PM
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Oh my goodness! That does suck! But WHY are you paying his ER visit????
Good Point!!
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Old 04-30-2010, 12:49 AM
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Why would you be responsible for her childs medical bills?

It's not as if you did something negligent or malicious to cause the child to fall down, the kids a klutz...heck, all 2-ish year old kids are klutzy.

If she works for the county (if that isn't an oxymoron) in child protection, she knew full well exactly what would happen. Either that, or she's too dumb to hold the position she has.

I'd terminate, and terminate NOW. From the description, she is a lawsuit looking for a place to happen. It's not "IF", but "WHEN".
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Old 04-30-2010, 03:52 AM
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You do NOT have to (nor should you) pay for her ER visit! If she expects this of you that's insane! This isn't your fault. There was no negligence on your part. Like Chickenhauler said, I'd lose this one. Someone who blows a bump in the nose this much out of proportion and then expects you to pay for an unnecessary ER visit is trouble waiting to happen.
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Old 04-30-2010, 04:18 AM
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i had a mom once who worked in child protection services who FREAKED on me cause her son got dirt in his eye. she too, would drop hime off sick and dirty all the time, and youre gonna freak over a little dirt...OMG! she was a lawsuit waiting to happen. i finally terminated her......
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Old 04-30-2010, 04:36 AM
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I wouldn't pay for this. She surely has health insurance. She choose to access the most expensive possible health care for a VERY minor injury. She had the choice to make a Dr's appointment and have him be seen in a regular office. She choose to take him to a specialist in emergency medicine. That's her choice as a parent but it's not on you.

If you get contacted by her health insurance then you need to fight the claim. You didn't have any control over what health care the Mom accessed. You have the outcome to prove that it was a very minor injury that didn't need any kind of medical care.

If providers have to pay for complete accidents children have while in the course of their normal day while they were under supervision we will end up not being able to even be insured. Medical care is very expensive.

I have had four little boys at one time in my care under the age of 18 months. All four of them fell down the stairs at their home under their parents care. Not a single one of them went to the Doctor or even CALLED the Doctor because they were all afraid of being deemed neglectful. If that would have happened on my watch they would have taken them to the ER and had full CAT scans done on my dime.

One of the kids was at Mayo clinic the evening after this had happened. They were visiting a grandma who was dying. Both parents had the opportunity to take him down to the ER and have him examined but they choose not to. This kid was a baby (under a year) and fell the entire flight of stairs. They did NOTHING.

When it's something that happens with anyone else the parents will access the most expensive health care option. If they are under the gun at all they will do the "wait and see" approach.

This is why I don't have ANY climbing equipment on my property. I don't have anything the kids have access to that's even off the ground. I don't even allow them to have access to kiddie chairs unless they are invited to get on them. Everything is floor level at my house. My pack n plays sit one inch off the ground so the top of them is only 27 inches off the ground. I will not allow kids to climb anything but the stairs and that's with a technique for safety and supervised at all times.

I train them to commado crawl the stairs both up and down from the time they are about 18 months. They are NEVER allowed near the stairs unless they have an adult spotting them until they are about 3.5. I train the older kids to take one step at a time and hold the rail. I also have a rule that there is only one kid on the stairs at a time.

There's a lot of pressure to not have ANYTHING happen to the kids when they are in our care. Sure you will have some parents who will be cool about things but there are just as many who will do what yours did... access the most expensive medical care on the planet for the tiniest little bruise. Right or wrong it puts you on the line for a possibility of paying for the expensive medical care when the child only needed first aid.
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Old 04-30-2010, 04:36 AM
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She asked you to pay the bill? Ouch. This does sound like a high maintenance family, an expensive one emotionally and financially. I had one break her leg here once at around 7 yrs old, she had stepped off a little ramp wrong and didn't even cry, but wouldn't put weight on it. At 9pm mom finally took her to er to discover it was broken I did offer to help pay her bill in this case because I felt really bad and she was like "Why? That's what I have insurance for!" She then re-broke it a few months later at home slipping on wet grass. Thank goodness her mom has that kind of attitude. I'd be working for free after paying all her bills if she didn't. This child is a magnet for strange accidents. Even at nearly 13 yrs old, I still have mini heart attacks just watching her run through the yard.
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Old 04-30-2010, 06:04 AM
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This mom has insurance through the county, but actually has medical assistance/welfare medical for her kids secondary. Basically according to her, her insurance may refuse to pay, since the accident happened at daycare. We'll see. I don't think the Dr even took her seriously. I guess the clinic will probably bill it to ins, so unless they send her one of those cool letters asking if someone else was responsible to pay the accident- auto, work comp, or other , (if the diagnosis code is accident based they are automaticlly generated- I spent years as ins manager for a chiro clinic) I may not get stuck. I actually told her that if I do, I'll pay it and not renew my license next year- because I don't want to do daycare without insurance in case of something big, but I wont pay a rate increase over something this stupid. People assume daycare providers do it because we can't do anything else. I graduated college w/ a 4.0, worked for years as insurance/office manager, then 2 years as bookeeper for a law firm before I quit to stay home. Maybe its time to get my degree in social work- the college said I'd have my masters in 15 months w/ 2 nights a week classes. Considering how dumb she is it might be better for the community.
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Old 04-30-2010, 06:21 AM
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I may not get stuck [paying]. I actually told her that if I do, I'll pay it and not renew my license next year- because I don't want to do daycare without insurance in case of something big, but I wont pay a rate increase over something this stupid.
Somehow I don't think this woman will lose any sleep if that happens.

I really hope this incident just blows over for you.
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Old 04-30-2010, 06:39 AM
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I do too. And actually- I think she would be upset. She likes the drama and her ego needs to elevate herself/big deal about being a social worker, but as ignorant as she is in some respects... she in course of her work has shut down plenty of daycares. Places where the providers were drinking /drunk on the job, truly didnt provide adequate safety/supervision, had boyfriends looking up kiddie **** etc. She knows becuse my husband is a cop and we have background checks that she wont run into a family on her caseload. She worries/is paranoid that some family she took kids from will target her children, and since unlike most of the daycares here I have a somewhat more selected clientele she's not as worried someone she's dealt with will see her kids/target her or them. She also knows most places wont even take her because of her job, and sure wont put up w/ her crap. She also knows/sees that her daughter that just turned three will be reading within the year etc. She just needs her fix of drama and power & control. Since I cracked down on contract/pickup & payment issues she's maybe felt like she wasn't holding the reins anymore in this situation. Either way, this sucks. And I hope it blows over too. Once it does, then I'll search for new clients to pay the bills before giving notice- but I think if I fire now she'll be pissed and she may really try to stick it to me. I'm still waiting for them to show up this morning/stressing about the morning meet & greet. I hope he didn't bruise at all. My son always looked like he was in a brawl at that age, constantly bonking his head on something .
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Old 04-30-2010, 06:52 AM
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They just showed up. Yeterday she said Dr thought he was going to be all bruised and have raccooon eyes today. LOL you cant even see anything. Yay. She came in to the door & said she was late. The kids ran to me for hugs and she said have a nice day & ran. Wow.
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Old 04-30-2010, 07:17 AM
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We have in our contract that we are not responsible for any medical bills for any injury or such that occurs at the daycare. I hope you don't get stuck with this. One of our moms is a DHS mom and she is wonderful...I guess we are blessed with after reading other responses!
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Old 04-30-2010, 07:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Carole's Daycare View Post
They just showed up. Yeterday she said Dr thought he was going to be all bruised and have raccooon eyes today. LOL you cant even see anything. Yay. She came in to the door & said she was late. The kids ran to me for hugs and she said have a nice day & ran. Wow.
I'm sure she feels like an A** right now. We just had a 10 month old who is crawling miss a slight elevation into the toy room and he has a black eye. His mom laughed and said "It's not the first OR last time!" Again...we must be blessed with awesome families?
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Old 04-30-2010, 07:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Carole's Daycare View Post
They just showed up. Yeterday she said Dr thought he was going to be all bruised and have raccooon eyes today. LOL you cant even see anything. Yay. She came in to the door & said she was late. The kids ran to me for hugs and she said have a nice day & ran. Wow.
Take pictures of him today. Email them to yourself and send one to yourself in the mail. Prove what he looked like after less than 24 hours.

DOCUMENT his outcome. It will serve you well if you get the bill. You have a right to refuse to pay this based on the child receiving emergency medical services for an injury that required simple basic first aid.
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Old 04-30-2010, 08:28 AM
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Ugh, how dumb is that?! Still I don't see how you should even offer to pay for her ER trip. It was nothing, you told her it was nothing and she overreacted. I have in my policies the following

"Medical Emergencies: (Medical Emergency policy and then) .... Parents are responsible for costs involved in medical treatment including any transportation required."

If my child gets hurt at school, the school doesn't pay her medical bills, I do. Why should she be any different?
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Old 04-30-2010, 08:36 AM
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I also added in my contract, that I am not responsible for any injuries to any child here in daycare. I have never had anything happen ever- Thank GOD!!! But it's in there, just in case!!
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Old 04-30-2010, 08:42 AM
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Ugh, how dumb is that?! Still I don't see how you should even offer to pay for her ER trip. It was nothing, you told her it was nothing and she overreacted. I have in my policies the following

"Medical Emergencies: (Medical Emergency policy and then) .... Parents are responsible for costs involved in medical treatment including any transportation required."

If my child gets hurt at school, the school doesn't pay her medical bills, I do. Why should she be any different?
Oh there's a big difference. School is a public entity where no one single person is responsible for the minute to minute supervision of your one child. There's no money being exchanged between you and the school. If the school is responsible then the "public tax payers" are responsible.

The school has enormous resources to fight any insurance claims. The insurance companies would not even bother with something of this $$$ It would cost them more to fight a well armed attorney rich school district then the cost of the bill.

At school the children are in public. The school must have policies and procedures to protect the group but they are not responsible for the minute to minute visual direct supervision of every kid in the building. It's understood that at school there is not a single adult responsible.
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Old 04-30-2010, 08:49 AM
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I also added in my contract, that I am not responsible for any injuries to any child here in daycare. I have never had anything happen ever- Thank GOD!!! But it's in there, just in case!!
The problem with having that in your contract is that it only is a contractual agreement with the parents who are rarely the ones who pay for medical. In order for that to work you would have to get their insurer or the hopsital/medical service to agree that you are not liable. They wouldn't agree to that. They can sue you for anything they don't want to pay. They are the ones with the resources to make you pay.

It also doesn't decrease your liability with your licensor. Parents can't agree that you are not responsible when someone else decides if you indeed were responsible.
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Old 04-30-2010, 09:11 AM
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The problem with having that in your contract is that it only is a contractual agreement with the parents who are rarely the ones who pay for medical. In order for that to work you would have to get their insurer or the hopsital/medical service to agree that you are not liable. They wouldn't agree to that. They can sue you for anything they don't want to pay. They are the ones with the resources to make you pay.

It also doesn't decrease your liability with your licensor. Parents can't agree that you are not responsible when someone else decides if you indeed were responsible.
I agree with this!!
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Old 04-30-2010, 09:19 AM
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I agree with this!!
And for the parents who do have to pay: They won't access medical care for something that isn't an emergency if there is ANY chance they will get stuck with the bill. They won't be going to the ER for a bloddy nose. The ones to worry about are the ones who are fully insured (as this Mom is with two insurers). The further the parent is away from the bill the better chance you have of them racking up high bills.

This parent knows she won't pay. She has insurance and back up insurance. She felt perfectly comfortable accessing specialty care for something that required simple first aid because there is NO chance she will pay a penny.
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Old 04-30-2010, 09:53 AM
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I agree. She had the freedom to overreact & go to eR & get time off of work because she has so much PTO, good ins, and welfare ins second so there's no way she'll have to pay for it. It took a bunch of hassle some of you may remember to get her on track with picking up on time or being responsible for late fees. This woman is currently single- she left the dad- a loser drinker on SSI that lives with his sister, when the now 3 yr old daughter was 9 months- thats when she first came to me. Within a couple months she told me she was pregnant again- apparently after a one night stand w/ the ex after she had moved out. She applied for daycare assistance through welfare to try to get it before baby2 would start daycare mid august 2008. She applied while on maternity leave- she took a couple extra weeks unpaid to lower her income and was wait listed- She was within 1000 of the maximum allowed family income then- so she could have been approved & paid maximum copay. When she went back to work & got a raise she was denied for too much money- she brings home 1300 every two weeks-after tax, insurance etc, but wanted to pay the max copay of 499 month with welfare picking up rest of daycare. She actually appealed to the state/protested that if there hadnt been a waiting list, she met the income guideline when she applied- and had she received it they could not have kicked her off with her raise. I couldn't believe it. Taxpayer dollars at work w/ this chick. She still didn't get it, so resents having to pay for both kids herself. I did take pictures & will email them to myself as you suggest. She probably does feel bad a little, because she's probably knows she didn't act appropriately, & is afraid if this nails me I will quit, & she'll be stuck finding a new place.
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Old 04-30-2010, 10:03 AM
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I agree. She had the freedom to overreact & go to eR & get time off of work because she has so much PTO, good ins, and welfare ins second so there's no way she'll have to pay for it. It took a bunch of hassle some of you may remember to get her on track with picking up on time or being responsible for late fees. This woman is currently single- she left the dad- a loser drinker on SSI that lives with his sister, when the now 3 yr old daughter was 9 months- thats when she first came to me. Within a couple months she told me she was pregnant again- apparently after a one night stand w/ the ex after she had moved out. She applied for daycare assistance through welfare to try to get it before baby2 would start daycare mid august 2008. She applied while on maternity leave- she took a couple extra weeks unpaid to lower her income and was wait listed- She was within 1000 of the maximum allowed family income then- so she could have been approved & paid maximum copay. When she went back to work & got a raise she was denied for too much money- she brings home 1300 every two weeks-after tax, insurance etc, but wanted to pay the max copay of 499 month with welfare picking up rest of daycare. She actually appealed to the state/protested that if there hadnt been a waiting list, she met the income guideline when she applied- and had she received it they could not have kicked her off with her raise. I couldn't believe it. Taxpayer dollars at work w/ this chick. She still didn't get it, so resents having to pay for both kids herself. I did take pictures & will email them to myself as you suggest. She probably does feel bad a little, because she's probably knows she didn't act appropriately, & is afraid if this nails me I will quit, & she'll be stuck finding a new place.
Carole,
Take pic
Print
Send in a letter thru USPS to yourself
When you get the letter don't open it up. Put it in his file and leave it. You will have a stamp from the USPS time stamping the day they received it.
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Old 04-30-2010, 10:10 AM
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Carole,
Take pic
Print
Send in a letter thru USPS to yourself
When you get the letter don't open it up. Put it in his file and leave it. You will have a stamp from the USPS time stamping the day they received it.
If you can get something for him to put up towards his face that is time stamped like a newspaper that would be good to include in the pic.

It's a pain but you will have absolute proof that within one day there was no sign of any injury.
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Old 04-30-2010, 10:17 AM
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Oh there's a big difference. School is a public entity where no one single person is responsible for the minute to minute supervision of your one child. There's no money being exchanged between you and the school. If the school is responsible then the "public tax payers" are responsible.
What about private school? If kids get hurt in private school the parents still have to pay. I've had a little boy try to climb up on the couch and onto a ledge that had an exposed nail at the top (the ledge is about a foot from the ceiling) and I kept telling him not to go up there. Everyday it was the same thing (he was seven) and he did it over and over and over. Ever time he did it I would bring him down and try to keep him away from the furniture but he would run from me and jump on and hang on to the ledge. One day (the last time it happened) he was running from me and jumped up and grabbed on and sliced his finger. I called mom and she took him to the ER. He had to get a shot and stitches. She still paid for it. The dad tried getting me to pay but I said no and still gave him my insurance info. I called my agent and told her what happened and in the end they were held responsible and had to pay. If it was your fault due to something you did, negligence or failure to keep the premises safe then I would understand but this is different. And even though it was an exposed nail in my home I didn't pay because the child knew the rules, I did everything in my power to try to keep him away from the area, spoke to the parents about this issue and the ledge was up higher than 5 ft. The child just refused to listen. In the case of this post the child was just playing and fell and bonked himself. Not really any negligence on anyone's part.
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Old 04-30-2010, 10:33 AM
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What about private school? If kids get hurt in private school the parents still have to pay. I've had a little boy try to climb up on the couch and onto a ledge that had an exposed nail at the top (the ledge is about a foot from the ceiling) and I kept telling him not to go up there. Everyday it was the same thing (he was seven) and he did it over and over and over. Ever time he did it I would bring him down and try to keep him away from the furniture but he would run from me and jump on and hang on to the ledge. One day (the last time it happened) he was running from me and jumped up and grabbed on and sliced his finger. I called mom and she took him to the ER. He had to get a shot and stitches. She still paid for it. The dad tried getting me to pay but I said no and still gave him my insurance info. I called my agent and told her what happened and in the end they were held responsible and had to pay. If it was your fault due to something you did, negligence or failure to keep the premises safe then I would understand but this is different. And even though it was an exposed nail in my home I didn't pay because the child knew the rules, I did everything in my power to try to keep him away from the area, spoke to the parents about this issue and the ledge was up higher than 5 ft. The child just refused to listen. In the case of this post the child was just playing and fell and bonked himself. Not really any negligence on anyone's part.
I'm not a specialist in insurance so I can't say for sure what caused them to cover this one. I'm sure there is a certain point where the cost of collecting is more costly than the bill. With you having insurance it may have been that their insurer did not want to invest in suing your insurer. I don't know.

In a situation you described... now don't take this the wrong way... you seem very sweet and a loving provider but you did take a risk knowing he had behavior you could not control. Not impulsive spur of the moment behavior but behavior that was predictably dangerous daily. You decided he COULD stay in your care even though he clearly needed much more supervision than you could do in your group. To me.. that is your liability.

We shouldn't care for children we can't keep safe.

but don't take this personally because I don't mean it that way at all... just something to think about
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Old 04-30-2010, 09:08 PM
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Carole..I am glad everything worked out in the end

That being said, I agree with Nannyde and take those pictures. BTW..do you have a log that the mother signs and dates each day? That would help too should she take it further. In other words...why bring your child back to a place that you think is held responsible?

Keep us posted!
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Old 05-01-2010, 08:30 AM
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What a nightmare! Sorry! Glad things worked out though!
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Old 05-01-2010, 07:55 PM
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In a situation you described... now don't take this the wrong way... you seem very sweet and a loving provider but you did take a risk knowing he had behavior you could not control. Not impulsive spur of the moment behavior but behavior that was predictably dangerous daily. You decided he COULD stay in your care even though he clearly needed much more supervision than you could do in your group. To me.. that is your liability.
No offense taken really. I can take some creative criticism. I have to admit that I have a soft spot for kids and try to work with families and children if behavior is an issue but as for this kid he was only with me for a month before he cut his finger. After this situation I IMMEDIATELY terminated. I had tried to work with the parents (he even hung on the ledge a few times when parents were here and they didn't even seem concerned!). They asked for payment of his bills in retaliation for being let go. I don't know what the process is like either really I just called my agent and let her know what happened. After that I don't know what happened or of they even actually went through with trying to get payment. I agree since then, that if a child doesn't at least show improvement then they shouldn't be in care. You live and learn right?
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Old 05-01-2010, 11:38 PM
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No offense taken really. I can take some creative criticism. I have to admit that I have a soft spot for kids and try to work with families and children if behavior is an issue but as for this kid he was only with me for a month before he cut his finger. After this situation I IMMEDIATELY terminated. I had tried to work with the parents (he even hung on the ledge a few times when parents were here and they didn't even seem concerned!). They asked for payment of his bills in retaliation for being let go. I don't know what the process is like either really I just called my agent and let her know what happened. After that I don't know what happened or of they even actually went through with trying to get payment. I agree since then, that if a child doesn't at least show improvement then they shouldn't be in care. You live and learn right?
maybe she genuinely thought it was serious since you called her? i don't know. i could be wrong. i had 2 kids in daycare from the time they were 6 weeks old, and when the daycare called me - i assumed it was serious.

they called me one time because my son broke out into a rash that they thought was just AWFUL and sudden, etc. so i took him to the doctor (not at their expense, of course) and it turned out it was a side effect of asthma. after the 3rd or 4th call over a rash - i finally told my daycare director that i couldn't keep leaving work over a RASH that wasn't contagious and was a side effect of asthma. that was my second child and i'd been through it enough to know what was serious and what wasn't. but with my first child, i assumed if the daycare called me at work - it must be serious. they even called me a time or two when my child ran out of diapers (which YES was MY fault) and i left work to take diapers. then, i said, "hey, my best friend's baby _____ wears the same size diapers. use hers and i'll replace them when i pick her up." they stopped calling about rashes and diapers after that, but i basically made it clear i wasn't leaving work anymore unless there was blood loss that was fatal or something.

when i worked at a daycare, i wouldn't call a parent unless I thought it was REALLY serious (worth going to the doctor). otherwise, i'd write up a report and tell them what happened when they picked their kid up. just to be fair, i think the phone calls freak parents out a little.
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Old 05-02-2010, 02:05 PM
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This mom has insurance through the county, but actually has medical assistance/welfare medical for her kids secondary. Basically according to her, her insurance may refuse to pay, since the accident happened at daycare. We'll see. I don't think the Dr even took her seriously. I guess the clinic will probably bill it to ins, so unless they send her one of those cool letters asking if someone else was responsible to pay the accident- auto, work comp, or other , (if the diagnosis code is accident based they are automaticlly generated- I spent years as ins manager for a chiro clinic) I may not get stuck. I actually told her that if I do, I'll pay it and not renew my license next year- because I don't want to do daycare without insurance in case of something big, but I wont pay a rate increase over something this stupid. People assume daycare providers do it because we can't do anything else. I graduated college w/ a 4.0, worked for years as insurance/office manager, then 2 years as bookeeper for a law firm before I quit to stay home. Maybe its time to get my degree in social work- the college said I'd have my masters in 15 months w/ 2 nights a week classes. Considering how dumb she is it might be better for the community.
I'd stand firmer than a brick wall and point out it was her kid, you REFUSE to pay one single dime for her child's knee-jerk medical care.

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The problem with having that in your contract is that it only is a contractual agreement with the parents who are rarely the ones who pay for medical. In order for that to work you would have to get their insurer or the hopsital/medical service to agree that you are not liable. They wouldn't agree to that. They can sue you for anything they don't want to pay. They are the ones with the resources to make you pay.
First, it won't be the insurance company that sues you, it will be the hospital. They would have to prove in a court of law, under trail, that you were liable for the injury (negligent).

Then all you would have to do is present the documents from the check in at the ER (these would have to be turned over during discovery) where the parent signed the admitting forms where they accept all financial responsibility for the expenses incurred (read your admitting form next time you visit the hospital).

This is the parent of the child's financial obligation, not yours.

The insurance co, hospital, and the Grand Inquisitor can all think that you are responsible, but until you get in front of a judge and jury that says otherwise, it's the parents bill to pay.
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Old 05-02-2010, 04:03 PM
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I'd stand firmer than a brick wall and point out it was her kid, you REFUSE to pay one single dime for her child's knee-jerk medical care.



First, it won't be the insurance company that sues you, it will be the hospital. They would have to prove in a court of law, under trail, that you were liable for the injury (negligent).

Then all you would have to do is present the documents from the check in at the ER (these would have to be turned over during discovery) where the parent signed the admitting forms where they accept all financial responsibility for the expenses incurred (read your admitting form next time you visit the hospital).

This is the parent of the child's financial obligation, not yours.

The insurance co, hospital, and the Grand Inquisitor can all think that you are responsible, but until you get in front of a judge and jury that says otherwise, it's the parents bill to pay.
Why do you think it would be the hospital? Are you saying her two insurances wouldn't cover the bill?
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Old 05-02-2010, 07:46 PM
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when i worked at a daycare, i wouldn't call a parent unless I thought it was REALLY serious (worth going to the doctor). otherwise, i'd write up a report and tell them what happened when they picked their kid up. just to be fair, i think the phone calls freak parents out a little.
I agree with you to a point. I always called a parent to give them heads up just to protect ME. As for a situation as for diapers, no I wouldn't expect a parent to leave work. I would simply tell them that they must replace the number used plus bring for their own child.

Take for example a fever. State law requires a child must not be in care with 100.4 temp. I ALWAYS called when I took a temp and even if it wasn't at the 100.4 I would give the heads up and say..hey So and So is miserable etc..it's not at a 100.4 but once it reaches there you must pick So and So up.

As for the rashes I agree with the center about calling to pick up your child. I am not a doctor and even though it's not contagious etc..I was Assistant Director. I needed to protect the children, staff, as well as myself.

My point being that yes I called the parents. Yes I am sure I "freaked them out" as you say. Even though the first thing I did was always..hi So and So this is Ms. R from ---, everything is ok..just wanted to give you a heads up about something. Then I would hear a sigh of relief

On the flip side it also depended on the parent too. If a parent worked in retail and couldn't get to the phone then I would wait until they HAD to do something ie pick up.

I guess I just had that kind of relationship with the parents
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Old 05-02-2010, 09:59 PM
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I agree with you to a point. I always called a parent to give them heads up just to protect ME. As for a situation as for diapers, no I wouldn't expect a parent to leave work. I would simply tell them that they must replace the number used plus bring for their own child.

Take for example a fever. State law requires a child must not be in care with 100.4 temp. I ALWAYS called when I took a temp and even if it wasn't at the 100.4 I would give the heads up and say..hey So and So is miserable etc..it's not at a 100.4 but once it reaches there you must pick So and So up.

As for the rashes I agree with the center about calling to pick up your child. I am not a doctor and even though it's not contagious etc..I was Assistant Director. I needed to protect the children, staff, as well as myself.

My point being that yes I called the parents. Yes I am sure I "freaked them out" as you say. Even though the first thing I did was always..hi So and So this is Ms. R from ---, everything is ok..just wanted to give you a heads up about something. Then I would hear a sigh of relief

On the flip side it also depended on the parent too. If a parent worked in retail and couldn't get to the phone then I would wait until they HAD to do something ie pick up.

I guess I just had that kind of relationship with the parents
i understand what you're saying...every situation is different depending on the child and the parent.

as far as the rashes i mentioned, i did pick up my child the first two times - the second time is when i took him to a doctor. it wasn't like a diaper rash - it was more like little heat bumps all over his body (which it wasn't heat bumps, but that's what it looked like). the doctor said it wasn't painful, contagious - nothing. just a side effect of asthma. to me it was like being red from a sunburn - no reason to go home. of course, this was a chain daycare and they loved sending kids home so they could send staff home and save on labor. either way, they stopped making me pick him up over the breakouts and would only call when it was something really serious. i've seen them call parents when a child didn't have a change of clothes (even though there were tons of spare clothes in storage). so, it does depend on the history of the provider and the parent i think. if the provider calls all the time, it's hard to get nervous. if they never, ever call - that could be scary.
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Old 05-03-2010, 08:33 AM
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maybe she genuinely thought it was serious since you called her? i don't know. i could be wrong. i had 2 kids in daycare from the time they were 6 weeks old, and when the daycare called me - i assumed it was serious.
Oh it was serious. It needed stitches and was bleeding pretty bad. He HAD to go to the doctors to get stitched up which is why I called. In either case however, it is not my responsibility to pay his medical bill just as I would not expect someone else to pay for my child's medical bill if she was at another daycare.
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Old 05-03-2010, 09:25 AM
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Why do you think it would be the hospital? Are you saying her two insurances wouldn't cover the bill?


If the insurance companies don't pay the bill, then you as the parent are responsible for the care recieved... Therefore the hospital will go after the person responsible for the bill, which you sign every time you visit the doctor or ER..stating that you the parent is responsibke for bill.. The hospital now has the right to collect the debt from the party responsible..

Side note:: when my daughter fell off the teter toters at school and hit a pile if BIG rocks the school payed for her stiches, cat scan and hospital stay for the sever bleeding on her head!! The also paid for her stiches o. Her leg that she got while cutter leg on the playhouse jungle gym thing it was a piece if metal that came apart; the school didnt take proper care of the playground equipment. Schools due have insurance to pay for such accidents!!
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Old 05-03-2010, 11:21 AM
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If the insurance companies don't pay the bill, then you as the parent are responsible for the care recieved... Therefore the hospital will go after the person responsible for the bill, which you sign every time you visit the doctor or ER..stating that you the parent is responsibke for bill.. The hospital now has the right to collect the debt from the party responsible..

Side note:: when my daughter fell off the teter toters at school and hit a pile if BIG rocks the school payed for her stiches, cat scan and hospital stay for the sever bleeding on her head!! The also paid for her stiches o. Her leg that she got while cutter leg on the playhouse jungle gym thing it was a piece if metal that came apart; the school didnt take proper care of the playground equipment. Schools due have insurance to pay for such accidents!!
You still paid for it.

You did, I did, and everyone else paid for it.
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Old 05-03-2010, 11:48 AM
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My son got hit playing dodge ball in gym his senior year. A kid ran into his mouth and practically knocked 2 of his teeth out, my dental bill was over $400 for that, and I turned it into our school, and they sent it back and said they were not reponsible for the bill, as they are exempt from paying for injuries on their property due to the state laws. Bullcrap.....they never should of had the kids playing such aggressive sports for gym class, they get downright dirty in that game. Of course our insurance didn't cover it either, and we had to pay it out of our pocket.
I take it your kid never played football, hockey, soccer or raced motocross?


Yeah, dodgeball is pretty tame.
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Old 05-03-2010, 12:02 PM
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Schools have students to alot of things that can cause injury...some schools have (gasp) STAIRS! Many still have paper (paper cuts) and some even have shop classes (digit removal).

Life is full of things that can hurt a person. Why is it that it's always somebody else's fault, and somebody else should pay? Why is it never "my kids a clutz" (cuz I know mine is, and openly admit it to anyone who asks).

It's just one of my pet peeves in life, right alongside lawsuits.
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Old 05-03-2010, 02:08 PM
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You still paid for it.

You did, I did, and everyone else paid for it.
yes I know I paid for it!! I told the school not worry about it that I would take care of it!! They called the hospital before I arrived both times and gave all their information, I did give the admitting lady my insurance card, but mine was never billed.
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Old 05-03-2010, 02:32 PM
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yes I know I paid for it!! I told the school not worry about it that I would take care of it!! They called the hospital before I arrived both times and gave all their information, I did give the admitting lady my insurance card, but mine was never billed.
Sounds like they were trying to prevent a lawsuit, and had either been sued before, or their lawyers told them they were less likely to get sued if they went about it this way.

Damn the lawyers!
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Old 05-03-2010, 07:41 PM
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Sounds like they were trying to prevent a lawsuit, and had either been sued before, or their lawyers told them they were less likely to get sued if they went about it this way.

Damn the lawyers!


I'm sure that was it!! The school was told by the state to take out that equipment and clean up the boulder in the play ground that summer before her accidents that fall!!
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Old 05-03-2010, 10:38 PM
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Oh it was serious. It needed stitches and was bleeding pretty bad. He HAD to go to the doctors to get stitched up which is why I called. In either case however, it is not my responsibility to pay his medical bill just as I would not expect someone else to pay for my child's medical bill if she was at another daycare.
oh, okay, i guess i missed something. the daycare my kids went to when they were younger was responsible for paying the doctor's bill if something happened to them while in their care. nothing ever did happen, but there were children who had accidents that required medical attention - and they were absolutely responsible for the bill by their own admission/contract.

i guess it all depends on what your contract says, and if it doesn't say - it's a lesson learned.
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Old 05-04-2010, 07:49 AM
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I spent years as the insurance manager for a clinic, and really, its quite simple. Insurance companies, including your personal medical insurance, medical assistance, etc- want to make sure someone else isn't responsible for the bill before they pay it. Most injury type Diagnosis codes- the alpha numeric combination used to designate the type of illness or injury- automatically generate questions from the insurance company. Maybe some of you have received a letter from your insurance company before after an ER or Dr visit where you were treated for a fall, back or ankle injury, cut etc. That letter is double checking that the injury wasn't work or auto accident related, and also asked where and how it occurred so based on THAT COMPANYS POLICIES they can decide if they want to pay it, or if the injured party should seek payment through another insurance or liable party. It really depends on how the accident is coded and submitted whether the insurance questions it, and how the parent fills out that form whether the insurance initially will refuse to pay- at which time the injured party will appeal it or seek restitution elsewhere- through the daycare insurance or owner, for example. Then it is up to us to fight it - spending money, or pay it, spending money. To save big insurance companies money. The situation in my case still is unresolved in some ways. Mom is apologetic and seems to realize and feel bad she caused problems. It remains to be seen if the county will show up for surprise visits trying to determine if safety or supervision issues were a factor ( I dont know if they automatically pop in after a report of injury treated by a physician is filed, or if they read the report and excercise discretionary judgement here etc) I also do not know yet what her insurance is going to do, and it will be a couple weeks probably before I do.

Last edited by Carole's Daycare; 05-04-2010 at 07:50 AM. Reason: spelling
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Old 05-04-2010, 08:03 AM
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It is really frightening how liable we are, especially as daycare providers but also just as everyday citizens.

For example, my SIL works as a paralegal for a major insurance company, home & auto, not medical. They recently settled a lawsuit where the insured had a basketball hoop off the driveway. Some neighborhood kids, without permission, were using it. Apparently, they were trying to dunk and hanging on to the rim, bringing the hoop down on themselves. Although the injuries were minor the parents of the kids sued and recieved payment.
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Old 05-04-2010, 08:40 AM
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Yep- unless you have posted No trespassing signs you cant even argue that its your property, therefore they shouldn't be there. You have to assume that people will access your property and use/misuse things, then injure themselves and sue unless you have big padlocked fences and posted signs saying enter at own risk, no trespass etc. They'll still sue, but your odds are better, but even then its no guarantee they wont win. People have no respect for other peoples property/belongings nor are they ever willing to accept responsibility for their own mistakes/behavior. Always an excuse, always not their fault. Society is definately going down the crapper.
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Old 05-04-2010, 08:54 AM
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It is really frightening how liable we are, especially as daycare providers but also just as everyday citizens.

For example, my SIL works as a paralegal for a major insurance company, home & auto, not medical. They recently settled a lawsuit where the insured had a basketball hoop off the driveway. Some neighborhood kids, without permission, were using it. Apparently, they were trying to dunk and hanging on to the rim, bringing the hoop down on themselves. Although the injuries were minor the parents of the kids sued and recieved payment.
That is just sickening. I hate hearing stories like this. What is this world coming to?
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Old 05-04-2010, 09:25 AM
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We have some no trespassing signs up, but I think we will be going out tonight and putting some more up. Maybe one on each gate?
Man, that makes me nervous.
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Old 05-04-2010, 11:21 AM
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Deleted due to the smart ass comments that followed.
Must be nice to be a moderator, and be able to edit out your own words when someone else quotes your words in your own writing, then be all high and mighty and call them names.
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Old 05-05-2010, 07:15 AM
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I get what you are saying Mac, but with ANYTHING comes inherent risks. The schools system can't afford to pay for every injury...most districts are struggling to pay for teachers.

Think of it this way...your child gets hurt playing dodge ball so the school has to pay the bill...guess what? No more dodge ball.

Next week little Timmy trips while running the half mile and scrapes up his face, Mom and Dad are "worried" it will leave a scar and take Timmy to the doctor, the school foots the bill. No more running...

The week after that Susie burns herself on the buson burner in science class and the school gets the bill...

Anything and everything can cause injury, who would determine what is going to be prohibited, what bills will be paid...can you imagine the lawsuit that would ensue if your child's bill was paid and another child's wasn't?

It is every parents responsibility to ensure that their child has health and dental insurance and to pay the bill when their kids get hurt unless the injury was due to negligence.

All that said, I know it sucks when these unexpected bills come in to play!
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Old 05-05-2010, 07:44 AM
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Our high school didn't have a football team because someone got hurt and sued.

So we had rugby instead
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Old 05-05-2010, 08:14 AM
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I am not talking extracurricular sports, I am talking gym class that is a requirement.
Me too!!!!!
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Old 05-05-2010, 08:27 AM
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I think the issue here is negligence vs. assumed risk. If appropriate measures were taken to ensure safety, then it is a non- issue. Now what are appropriate measures? It would be reasonable to expect supervision, age-appropriate grouping, game play instruction, and a proper ball (Not play dodgeball with a basketball, for instance). If the injury is caused by two kids colliding, the assumption of risk is there already for that reason.
I'm sure that at the beginning of the year, you were asked to fill out an 'emergency card' which outlines the liability of the school as well as a medical release form asking for limitations. It is possible that in the paperwork you signed, that it said somewhere "If you have any concerns please discuss them with..." This would be all the school needed to cover themselves in the situation of assumed risk.
HOWEVER, I definitely understand what a bummer that must have been. Poor guy! (I always feared the Dodgeball)
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Old 05-05-2010, 11:08 AM
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Our high school didn't have a football team because someone got hurt and sued.

So we had rugby instead
I've played both, and play hockey and race off road motorcycles, but have to agree with irony here..****gby is one of the roughest sports I've ever played.
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