Default Style Register
Daycare.com Forum
Daycare Center and Family Home Forum>Kansas Group License
craftymissbeth 11:02 AM 04-11-2014
Just last weekend I renewed my license online, but instead of just renewing I applied for a new license so that I can switch from a family daycare to a group.

My licensor just called to set up the appointment for my new license survey (even though I just had my renewal visit a couple of weeks ago). She said that from now on whoever I have as my helper must be present at all times. I told her no, that I only have 3 dck's so I fall under the 1 provider ratio table.

She insisted that that's how it is with group licenses that there must always be two providers. I think she's wrong.

I ended up asking her to please verify that information and get back to me... and that if it ends up that I do have to have a second provider here then I'm going to simply shut down. I only have 3 dck's and after the craziness of my last two DCP's I'm not looking to add anymore. Therefore, I cannot afford to hire a second full time provider. I've already paid the state fees for my new license and if I end up canceling that and renewing the license I have then I have to pay it again.

After all the crap I've been through lately I'm ready to just give up.
Reply
craftymissbeth 11:04 AM 04-11-2014
Just to add: the only reason I applied as a group is so that I COULD expand in the future if I choose to... if I do it in the middle of the year then I'll have to pay the fees twice so this was just the perfect time to do it.
Reply
jenn 11:40 AM 04-11-2014
I can't tell you 100% for sure, but can explain what I was told.

A couple of years ago, I had a family contact me about returning. They were a wonderful family that had moved out of the area and had returned. I wanted to take them, but it would have put me over ratio 2 days per week.

I talked to my licensor about how I could legally do this.

My thinking was that my mom (who has taken all classes to be a provider, not just a sub) could be here on the days that I was over ratio. I would then be within ratio as I would have 2 providers here on those days.

My licensor said that that was not how it works. If I was going to move to a 2 provider facility or a group daycare setting, that was full time. I would have to have my mom here every minute that I was open. It did not matter how many kids were here. If I was licensed as a group or 2 provider facility, I would have to maintain that at all times, even if the amount of kids present was acceptable for 1 provider.
Reply
Annalee 11:55 AM 04-11-2014
Originally Posted by jenn:
I can't tell you 100% for sure, but can explain what I was told.

A couple of years ago, I had a family contact me about returning. They were a wonderful family that had moved out of the area and had returned. I wanted to take them, but it would have put me over ratio 2 days per week.

I talked to my licensor about how I could legally do this.

My thinking was that my mom (who has taken all classes to be a provider, not just a sub) could be here on the days that I was over ratio. I would then be within ratio as I would have 2 providers here on those days.

My licensor said that that was not how it works. If I was going to move to a 2 provider facility or a group daycare setting, that was full time. I would have to have my mom here every minute that I was open. It did not matter how many kids were here. If I was licensed as a group or 2 provider facility, I would have to maintain that at all times, even if the amount of kids present was acceptable for 1 provider.
That is a bummer! I am Group in Tennessee but when my numbers are low on certain days, Family rules apply!
Reply
craftymissbeth 12:36 PM 04-11-2014
Originally Posted by jenn:
I can't tell you 100% for sure, but can explain what I was told.

A couple of years ago, I had a family contact me about returning. They were a wonderful family that had moved out of the area and had returned. I wanted to take them, but it would have put me over ratio 2 days per week.

I talked to my licensor about how I could legally do this.

My thinking was that my mom (who has taken all classes to be a provider, not just a sub) could be here on the days that I was over ratio. I would then be within ratio as I would have 2 providers here on those days.

My licensor said that that was not how it works. If I was going to move to a 2 provider facility or a group daycare setting, that was full time. I would have to have my mom here every minute that I was open. It did not matter how many kids were here. If I was licensed as a group or 2 provider facility, I would have to maintain that at all times, even if the amount of kids present was acceptable for 1 provider.
See, that's basically what she's telling me, but the regs aren't written that way. Why would there be a separate table in the regs for a group license for 1 provider present?

Also, I asked on two separate occasions (once last year at my initial inspection and again a couple weeks ago) about what I needed to change in my program to be in line with a group license and both times I was told that I simply needed to post my diapering procedures
Reply
craftymissbeth 12:42 PM 04-11-2014
And under the table for the group ratios it says

Originally Posted by :
*A second provider shall be present when the number of children exceeds the maximum number allowed for one provider. See Table I.
To me, this means we do have the option of operating with only one provider as long as we are within ratio.

ETA: Table I refers to the regular family daycare license.
Reply
Blackcat31 12:42 PM 04-11-2014
I am licensed as a Large Group provider (there are 8 different licensing categories here) and I can operate on ANY lower level license capacity I want but must meet the ratio requirements for whatever level I am operating on for THAT DAY.

Hope that makes sense.

I "think" it is exactly what you are trying to do.... I keep the larger license because it's easier to just have it when I need it verses being limited to only have one particular age group.

I don't always need my assistant/helper present. ONLY if I have a particular age group of kids.
Reply
craftymissbeth 12:45 PM 04-11-2014
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
I am licensed as a Large Group provider (there are 8 different licensing categories here) and I can operate on ANY lower level license capacity I want but must meet the ratio requirements for whatever level I am operating on for THAT DAY.

Hope that makes sense.

I "think" it is exactly what you are trying to do.... I keep the larger license because it's easier to just have it when I need it verses being limited to only have one particular age group.

I don't always need my assistant/helper present. ONLY if I have a particular age group of kids.
That's EXACTLY what I'm trying to do. Here are our regs:

http://www.kdheks.gov/bcclr/regs/lic...l_sections.pdf

On page 42 is where I found the quote in my previous post above. Nowhere in the definition of a "group" license does it say that 2 providers must always be present.
Reply
Annalee 12:49 PM 04-11-2014
Originally Posted by craftymissbeth:
That's EXACTLY what I'm trying to do. Here are our regs:

http://www.kdheks.gov/bcclr/regs/lic...l_sections.pdf

On page 42 is where I found the quote in my previous post above. Nowhere in the definition of a "group" license does it say that 2 providers must always be present.
You present that to your licensing person! Go Girl!
Reply
Blackcat31 12:51 PM 04-11-2014
Yes.... to me this:

*A second provider shall be present when the number of children exceeds the maximum number allowed for one provider

means EXACLTY that. WHEN.

Not at ALL times...WHEN.



when [hwen, wen; unstressed hwuhn, wuhn] Show IPA
adverb
1.at what time or period? how long ago? how soon?: When are they to arrive? When did the Roman Empire exist?

2.under what circumstances? upon what occasion?: When is a letter of condolence in order? When did you ever see such a crowd?

conjunction
3. at what time: to know when to be silent.

4. at the time or in the event that: when we were young; when the noise stops.

5. at any time; whenever: He is impatient when he is kept waiting.

6. upon or after which; and then: We had just fallen asleep when the bell rang.

7. while on the contrary; considering that; whereas: Why are you here when you should be in school?

pronoun
8. what time: Till when is the store open?

9. which time: They left on Monday, since when we have heard nothing.

noun
10. the time of anything: the when and the where of an act.



Yep, I think your licensing agent is misinterpreting the word "WHEN".
Reply
craftymissbeth 12:53 PM 04-11-2014
I've been waiting for two hours for her to call me back. Guess she's still searching for verification that she's right
Reply
Blackcat31 12:55 PM 04-11-2014
Originally Posted by craftymissbeth:
I've been waiting for two hours for her to call me back. Guess she's still searching for verification that she's right
I'm thinking she only needs to consult Webster's... kwim?
Reply
Annalee 12:55 PM 04-11-2014
Originally Posted by craftymissbeth:
I've been waiting for two hours for her to call me back. Guess she's still searching for verification that she's right
I am happy for you that you know the ropes. Professionally stand your ground. there are so many providers in my state that just do what is told them and live in fear....I refuse to do that....I am nice but many times feel like getting a shirt or sign that says "Don't Mess With Me!"....
Reply
craftymissbeth 12:58 PM 04-11-2014
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
I'm thinking she only needs to consult Webster's... kwim?
Yes, she does!

Originally Posted by Annalee:
I am happy for you that you know the ropes. Professionally stand your ground. there are so many providers in my state that just do what is told them and live in fear....I refuse to do that....I am nice but many times feel like getting a shirt or sign that says "Don't Mess With Me!"....
I definitely don't know what I'm doing I'm only a year into this crazy business, but I don't usually have any issue standing up for myself
Reply
Blackcat31 01:00 PM 04-11-2014
Originally Posted by Annalee:
I am happy for you that you know the ropes. Professionally stand your ground. there are so many providers in my state that just do what is told them and live in fear....I refuse to do that....I am nice but many times feel like getting a shirt or sign that says "Don't Mess With Me!"....

Reply
Jack Sprat 01:01 PM 04-11-2014
I asked our food program lady about this a few months ago. I was thinking of hiring an assistant but, if I did so then I would have renew lic. early and do it as a group lic. She said it was a good idea if I was going to have SEVERAL days a month where I would require an assistant. She never once said she had to be present ALL the time.

A provider here in town has an assistant and I know she doesn't use him all the time. He works part time elsewhere as well. I think she is wrong. Keep pushing the issue!
Reply
Annalee 01:02 PM 04-11-2014
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:

Reply
jenn 01:32 PM 04-11-2014
I agree. What the licensor is telling you, and what mine told me, is not consistent with what the regulations say. My situation resolved itself as a different kiddo left, so I didn't have to research/fight this any more. I hope you find out that you can follow what the regulations say, not what you are being told. Good luck!
Reply
Unregistered 01:57 PM 04-11-2014
Over a period of years, I had three different licensing workers tell me that I could not switch between licenses day-by-day. I could call them up and ask to be switched from a group license with 8 under-SA to a group license with 10 under-SA, but could not have an
"8" group every day except Wednesday, and have a "10" group on Wednesday.

Last year, another new licensor and he said I could switch at will between these two licenses. No need to call, and I could do M-W-F with one group and T-Th with the other, no problem, literally switching back and forth every single day.

I verified this with my food program person, figuring she would have to know.

And I can't believe what these people have cost me over the years. It's irritating to not be able to get correct information from those who are supposed to know. And hold my livelihood in their hands.
Reply
originalkat 02:50 PM 04-11-2014
She is wrong. I have a Kansas Group License and have NEVER had 2 providers.
Reply
craftymissbeth 02:55 PM 04-11-2014
Originally Posted by originalkat:
She is wrong. I have a Kansas Group License and have NEVER had 2 providers.
Almost all of the daycares in my town are group daycares and I know of two that only have one provider. I've called her twice and it get her voicemail both times. I'm going to be upset if she leaves me stewing all weekend
Reply
originalkat 02:59 PM 04-11-2014
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
I am licensed as a Large Group provider (there are 8 different licensing categories here) and I can operate on ANY lower level license capacity I want but must meet the ratio requirements for whatever level I am operating on for THAT DAY.

Hope that makes sense.

I "think" it is exactly what you are trying to do.... I keep the larger license because it's easier to just have it when I need it verses being limited to only have one particular age group.

I don't always need my assistant/helper present. ONLY if I have a particular age group of kids.
Yes, I am a KS group provider and I can go "down" to a regular license without any changes on my license. You just cant go "up" to a group license without changing the license.
Reply
originalkat 03:02 PM 04-11-2014
Originally Posted by craftymissbeth:
Almost all of the daycares in my town are group daycares and I know of two that only have one provider. I've called her twice and it get her voicemail both times. I'm going to be upset if she leaves me stewing all weekend
When my licensing lady told me wrong I emailed her with the copy and pasted regulation in black and white so she could see it. THEN she changed her story and suddenly I was in compliance (not regarding the group license thing--something else).
If she does not agree after that I would call the KDHE in Topeka and speak to someone there regarding the discrepancy.
Reply
craftymissbeth 04:16 PM 04-11-2014
She finally called me back, but now insists that if there's only one provider then all children have to be older than 2 1/2... NOT what the regs say.

Also, she says I still have to have some person who is my second provider and that they are required to have 5 hours of inservice training every year. This is also not what the regs say. Am I just reading this wrong? To me, it says that whoever the licensee is is the primary care provider... basically anyone else would be an assistant. The annual training says the PRIMARY CARE PROVIDER has to have the 5 hours.

I'm not paying for someone's inservice hours when that person doesn't even exist... and even if they did I'm not paying for it when I have no intention of using them as a second provider.

Originally Posted by :
Annual professional development training requirements. In each licensure year, each primary care provider shall meet one of the following requirements:
(1) Complete five clock-hours of professional development training;
(2) maintain current accreditation by the national association for family child care; or
(3) hold a current child development associate credential.
Originally Posted by :
Care provider” and “provider” mean an individual who cares for and supervises children in a facility and has responsibility for the health, safety, and well-being of children, including the following:
(1) A primary care provider;
(2) an individual who is at least 16 years of age and who is working in the facility; and
(3) a substitute.
Originally Posted by :
Primary care provider” means an applicant with a temporary permit, a licensee, or the designee of an applicant with a temporary permit or a licensee. Each applicant with a temporary permit, each licensee, and each designee shall be at least 18 years of age and shall meet the requirements for a primary care provider specified in K.A.R. 28-4-114a.

Reply
jenn 07:18 PM 04-11-2014
What a mess! I seem to have a different licensor with each visit, and they all seem to interpret the rules in a different way.

I did have to call Topeka over a playground discrepancy and they were so very helpful. If you keep having trouble, I would definitely call them for clarification.

I homeschool my daughter during nap time, and either my mom or husband take over daycare during that time. According to 2 licensors, they both have to have full provider qualifications, not just sub requirements. It doesn't matter that I am there with them. The reasoning was that since they provide care on a regular basis, they are considered providers, not subs. They had to take the "initial 15 hours" required to be a provider and have to get 5 hours per year.
Reply
craftymissbeth 07:25 PM 04-11-2014
Originally Posted by jenn:
What a mess! I seem to have a different licensor with each visit, and they all seem to interpret the rules in a different way.

I did have to call Topeka over a playground discrepancy and they were so very helpful. If you keep having trouble, I would definitely call them for clarification.

I homeschool my daughter during nap time, and either my mom or husband take over daycare during that time. According to 2 licensors, they both have to have full provider qualifications, not just sub requirements. It doesn't matter that I am there with them. The reasoning was that since they provide care on a regular basis, they are considered providers, not subs. They had to take the "initial 15 hours" required to be a provider and have to get 5 hours per year.
And the way I'm reading the regs your dh and mom shouldn't be required to do the 5 hours per year. They ARENT primary care providers, they're just providers... and they're not required to do that.

But it guess what's written isn't REALLY what we're required to do... it's really whatever the licensor we happen to get thinks things should be. If they stick to what they're saying I'm going to call Topeka for sure.
Reply
originalkat 09:09 PM 04-11-2014
In regards to her insistence that all children must be 2 1/2:
In the Group Ratio table it says this:
*A second provider shall be present when the number of children exceeds the maximum number allowed for one provider. See Table I. (Table 1 is the regular license).
It does not say you need a second PRIMARY Provider.
=========================================
Here are the definitions of the 3 categories of providers:
“Primary care provider” means an applicant with a temporary permit, a licensee, or the designee of an applicant with a temporary permit or a licensee. Each applicant with a temporary permit, each licensee, and each designee shall be at least 18 years of age and shall meet the requirements for a primary care provider specified in K.A.R. 28-4-114a.

“Care provider” and “provider” mean an individual who cares for and supervises children in a facility and has responsibility for the health, safety, and well-being of children, including the following:

(1) A primary care provider;
(2) an individual who is at least 16 years of age and who is working in the facility;
and
(3) a substitute.
“Substitute” means an individual who supervises children in the temporary absence or extended absence of the primary care provider and who meets the following requirements:

In this section is specifically states that a Provider has different requirements than a Primary Care Provider.
(1) In the temporary absence of the primary care provider, the substitute shall be at least 16 years of age and shall meet all of the requirements for a providerspecified in K.A.R. 28-4-114a (a)(2), (b)(4)(C), and (c).
===============================================
So your substitute OR 2nd Provider must have the following:
(2) Each applicant, each applicant with a temporary permit, and each licensee shall provide orientation to each individual who will be caring for children about the policies and practices of the facility, including duties and responsibilities for the care and supervision of children. Each provider shall complete the orientation before the provider is given sole responsibility for the care and supervision of children. The orientation shall include the following:

(A) Licensing regulations;
(B) the policies and practices of the facility, including emergency procedures,
behavior management, and discipline;
(C) the schedule of daily activities;
(D) care and supervision of children in care;
(E) health and safety practices; and
(F) confidentiality.
And
(4) The health and safety training shall include the following:

(A) At least two clock-hours of training in recognizing the signs of child abuse
or neglect, including prevention of abusive head trauma, and the reporting
of suspected child abuse and neglect;
(B) at least two clock-hours of training in basic child development; and
(C) at least two clock-hours of training on safe sleep practices and sudden
infant death syndrome if the individual will be caring for children under
12 months of age.
And
(c) Pediatric first aid and pediatric cardiopulmonary resuscitation (CPR) certifications. Each applicant, each applicant with a temporary permit, each licensee, and each provider shall obtain certification in pediatric first aid and pediatric CPR as specified in this subsection.
(1) Each applicant and each applicant with a temporary permit shall obtain the certifications not later than 30 calendar days after submitting an application for a license.
(2) Each provider shall obtain the certifications before the date of employment or not later than 30 calendar days after the date of employment.
(3) Each licensee whose license was issued before the effective date of this regulation shall obtain the certifications within one calendar year after the effective date of this regulation. Each provider who was employed in the facility before the effective date of this regulation shall obtain the certifications within one calendar year after the effective date of this regulation.

I am sorry you are having such a hard time with this.
I really would give Topeka a call. I think it would save you a lot of frustration.
Reply
NoMoreJuice! 07:50 AM 04-12-2014
Sorry, I didn't read through so someone else may have answered this, but she is 100% WRONG. I've had a group license for over a year and I've never had a second provider until now. When only one provider is present, you have to follow the capacity table for one provider.

Is she on crack? I know you already know how angry it makes me when surveyors go rogue and decide their laws override the state's laws. GRRR.
Reply
craftymissbeth 09:30 AM 04-12-2014
Thank you, originalkat, for taking the time to type all of that out. It's so much easier to see it all spelled out that way.

nomorejuice, I know you've had a hell of a time with your nazi surveyor.

The lady I'm directly dealing with is fairly new, but she's consulting with someone who has been a surveyor for a very, very long time. They're the ONLY surveyors in our county (and my county is the largest size wise in the state)... so I think she's used to everyone just doing what she says with little question.

This is how I provide for my family. I'm not going to bend so easily.
Reply
jenn 10:01 AM 04-12-2014
Sounds like Kansas needs to train the licensors a little more! I think they each have their own version of the regulations and that's what they want you to follow. I have a pool that is never ever used for daycare. We have a fence taller than required around it. No one has ever had a problem with it. The person I had last time told me I had to follow all the pool regulations even though we did not use it for daycare. I am not testing the water daily and recording it for a pool that is not even daycare accessible. Topeka had to get involved. The lady there was so nice. She said that there are some wonderful licensing people that are truly helpful and that is what there job is, to help us. She said that too many of them think of themselves as the daycare police and rather than helping, just go around trying to find how to get you in trouble. Craziness.
Reply
Jack Sprat 01:53 PM 04-14-2014
Now I am curious as to who all you have for licensors! I have only met with mine three times. I am due for renewal by end of June. Mine is friendly, but not warm. I haven't had any issues with her yet. I hope I don't. I just wish she was little more friendlier towards me. Maybe its just me. lol!
Reply
craftymissbeth 02:09 PM 04-14-2014
Just got off the phone with my main surveyor and she's sticking to the 5 hours of Of service each year for a second provider that I don't even have. She also says I HAVE to have a second provider but they don't have to be present if as long as I'm in ratio. And all of my children have to be 21/2 or older if there is only one provider.
Reply
UnregisteredMe 02:14 PM 04-14-2014
Why does it seem so universally true that dc providers are expected to take "no" as an answer even when they know they are right?
In any other situation, we would go up the chain of command if we didn't get an appropriate response, right?
How did it get set up like this EVERYWHERE? and why should it not change? I just don't understand.
Reply
craftymissbeth 02:22 PM 04-14-2014
Sorry for all of the typos... I'm pretty heated right now. I wasn't very nice to her but she kept saying "this is what I've always required of my group licenses." and "I have to interpret the regulations based on how the state has interpreted them"

Uh, no. The state DID interpret them.. and they're black and white in the reg book. No interpretation needed. She also said that definition for "provider" is interchangeable for "primary care provider". No, it's not.

I left a message at the state so hopefully someone will call me back.
Reply
Tags:kansas member, kansas regulations
Reply Up